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(Slate)   It's been over 10 years now. Why didn't George Bush's dream of "a liberated Iraq" actually work?   (slate.com) divider line 566
    More: Obvious, Iraq War, George Bush, Iraq, Paul Wolfowitz, need to know, Ottoman Empire, American Foreign Policy  
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3676 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Mar 2013 at 10:58 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 10:18:11 AM  
Because the social and economic forces that are required for Democratization are not found in the Middle East, coupled with the worst government planning since the Cultural Revolution, along with regional and tribal conflicts resulted in the failure of the East-Coast neo-conservative dream.
 
2013-03-12 10:23:18 AM  
Because just like the rest of the endless list of conservative lies, repeating them over and over still does not make it true.
 
2013-03-12 10:23:39 AM  
Because that was never his goal in the first place?
 
2013-03-12 10:28:14 AM  

Lurking Fear: Because just like the rest of the endless list of conservative lies, repeating them over and over still does not make it true.


That's a solid argument there, chief. Tell me more about your thesis.
 
2013-03-12 10:28:35 AM  
Failure to allow full on civil war.  At the end of 2003, with the capture of Saddam, it should have been up to the Iraqis to rebuild and restructure their state.
 
2013-03-12 10:28:53 AM  

WTF Indeed: Because the social and economic forces that are required for Democratization are not found in the Middle East, coupled with the worst government planning since the Cultural Revolution, along with regional and tribal conflicts resulted in the failure of the East-Coast neo-conservative dream.


I like how you're just straight up saying that Muslims can't be democratic now.
 
2013-03-12 10:31:24 AM  
Because everyone didn't pray hard enough.
 
2013-03-12 10:31:27 AM  
First, one has to accept the premise that Bush's dream was for a liberated Iraq, which I do not.  Second, did Bush do anything that did actually work?  And by that I mean, anything that's going to make the US as a whole, sustainably stronger for the foreseeable future. I come up empty.
 
2013-03-12 10:33:18 AM  
Because the Iraqis are not mindless drones who will simply greet us as liberators when we walk in and take over their country and sell their resources off to oil companies and corporate mercenaries.
 
2013-03-12 10:34:08 AM  

GAT_00: I like how you're just straight up saying that Muslims can't be democratic now.


No, I said the Middle East does not have the social and economic forces. There are several Muslim countries with thriving democracies and several other ones with growing ones.  Democratization is more than just "the will of the people". It takes a willing educated elite along with a willingness by them to compromise for the future.  But you keep reading what you want to read and f*cking that chicken.
 
2013-03-12 10:35:39 AM  

GAT_00: WTF Indeed: Because the social and economic forces that are required for Democratization are not found in the Middle East, coupled with the worst government planning since the Cultural Revolution, along with regional and tribal conflicts resulted in the failure of the East-Coast neo-conservative dream.

I like how you're just straight up saying that Muslims can't be democratic now.


Muslims aren't the ones having the problem with Democracy, just Arabs.
 
2013-03-12 10:37:59 AM  

sgnilward: Muslims aren't the ones having the problem with Democracy, just Arabs several regional tribes and nations that since the British colonial time have been subjugated and never learned what it takes to work together for a common future.


FTFY.
 
2013-03-12 10:38:13 AM  

WTF Indeed: No, I said the Middle East does not have the social and economic forces.


Which is basically saying that people in the ME can't run a democracy.  You think they can't decide for themselves what they want in governments?  I think the revolutions recently suggest otherwise.  Just because you don't like the democracies that they end up with doesn't make them bad democracies.  One of the flaws of the conservative mindset is this assumption that any democracy will be friendly to us because we've somehow infused them with our freedom by sharing the same government, and it simply doesn't work like that.
 
2013-03-12 10:39:29 AM  
Because Jesus hates Muslims

As a great philosopher once said, the only solution is to invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.
 
2013-03-12 10:40:56 AM  
Because stupid people make bad predictions.

Note the pro-Iraq war posters in this thread for a dramatisation of stupid.
 
2013-03-12 10:41:27 AM  

UberDave: Because everyone didn't pray hard enough.


Oh, no! Tinker Bell!
 
2013-03-12 10:41:42 AM  
It worked for Kurdistan.
 
2013-03-12 10:45:43 AM  
Because George W Bush is the anti-midas... everything he touches turns to shiat
 
2013-03-12 10:47:31 AM  

GAT_00: Which is basically saying that people in the ME can't run a democracy.  You think they can't decide for themselves what they want in governments?  I think the revolutions recently suggest otherwise.  Just because you don't like the democracies that they end up with doesn't make them bad democracies.  One of the flaws of the conservative mindset is this assumption that any democracy will be friendly to us because we've somehow infused them with our freedom by sharing the same government, and it simply doesn't work like that.


I'm going to be nice and explain how the world works.  The article asked why hasn't democracy worked out in Iraq over the last 10 years.  I said because they lacked the forces required to install a working democracy within that time frame or even a longer one.  For example, if I give person who has never touched a computer before a computer and told them how to run it, how far do you think they would get in it's use?  There was little to no institutional forces in Iraq that would allow a democracy to take hold, and these are things that take decades to build.
 
2013-03-12 10:57:11 AM  
I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.
 
2013-03-12 10:58:33 AM  

vernonFL: It worked for Kurdistan.


Not really since the the Kurds will push for full sovereignty which means Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria will have to give up land. Something none of them are willing to do.
 
2013-03-12 10:58:44 AM  
i196.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-12 10:59:14 AM  

Mugato: Because that was never his goal in the first place?

 
2013-03-12 10:59:57 AM  
Because 'yee-ha' is not a foreign policy.
 
2013-03-12 11:02:00 AM  

Nabb1: I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.


You think Dick Cheney has a conscious?
 
2013-03-12 11:02:32 AM  
Because freedom
 
2013-03-12 11:02:57 AM  
Bush was doing Arab Spring before Arab Spring was cool.
I bet he listens to vinyl Death Cab albums too
 
2013-03-12 11:04:24 AM  
Because Obama
 
2013-03-12 11:04:30 AM  
One word: Obama.
 
2013-03-12 11:04:36 AM  
Because Bush and his cronies didn't actually give a fark about the Iraqi people?
 
2013-03-12 11:05:18 AM  
Because his definition of a liberated Iraq is ummm -- liberated.
 
2013-03-12 11:05:36 AM  
The one thing I know for sure is that Afghanistan will be totally different.
 
2013-03-12 11:05:57 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Nabb1: I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.

You think Dick Cheney has a conscious?


I don't think he has either a conscience nor a conscious.
 
2013-03-12 11:07:45 AM  

Mugato: Because that was never his goal in the first place?


3 and done.
 
2013-03-12 11:08:06 AM  
One word:  Goddamned libs
 
2013-03-12 11:08:18 AM  
Because George Bush's definition of democracy for them also included more ties to the U.S. than most people over there wanted?
 
2013-03-12 11:08:35 AM  

ITGreen: DROxINxTHExWIND: Nabb1: I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.

You think Dick Cheney has a conscious?

I don't think he has either a conscience nor a conscious.


he certainly has a conscious. He's evil but he ain't dumb.
 
2013-03-12 11:08:45 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org
In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment - yet it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage - your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other - made this day possible. Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free.
 
2013-03-12 11:09:16 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Nabb1: I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.

You think Dick Cheney has a conscious?



Nope.  He sure does not:

i78.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-12 11:10:05 AM  

Mugato: Because that was never his goal in the first place?


Pincy: Because Bush and his cronies didn't actually give a fark about the Iraqi people?


Exactly. Though, nothing was cuter than when all the Iraqis voted, and the hawks were posting pictures of people with their ink-stained thumbs to show they voted, and they all said, "SEE?! IT'S WORKING!!!! FREEDUMMMMMM!!" Aaaaaaand it turned out they were hiring just another stooge.
 
2013-03-12 11:11:00 AM  
I dunno, you tell me.
 
2013-03-12 11:11:06 AM  
He wanted oil, he also wanted to ensure his DoD bedfellows stayed nice and fat off of pork barrel spending for the next decade.
 
2013-03-12 11:11:44 AM  
For the same reason my dream of burying my face in Kate Upton's ass and using her rusty sheriff's badge as a breathing apparatus doesn't actually work out:
Too much shiat getting in the way.
 
2013-03-12 11:12:13 AM  

skullkrusher: ITGreen: DROxINxTHExWIND: Nabb1: I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.

You think Dick Cheney has a conscious?

I don't think he has either a conscience nor a conscious.

he certainly has a conscious. He's evil but he ain't dumb.


He could be in a coma at this very moment.

www.frumpzilla.com
 
2013-03-12 11:12:54 AM  

ITGreen: DROxINxTHExWIND: Nabb1: I suspect they were more interested in keeping Iraq from making a move to sell their oil in Euros instead of the US dollar.  Petrodollars are pretty much the world standard for oil, but if Iraq, as one of the world's largest producers, had decided to switch to the Euro as its benchmark, that would have had some fairly dire consequences for the US dollar.  Of course, using that as a pretext for war is unconscionable, but I can't help but think that discussion was had at some point when considering whether Saddam truly posed a threat to the U.S.

You think Dick Cheney has a conscious?

I don't think he has either a conscience nor a conscious.


GD spellcheck.
 
2013-03-12 11:13:50 AM  
It worked just fine.  Saddam is gone, and we replaced his highly ordered and controlled society with a festering hellhole of sectarian and religious conflict that will remain unstable for decades, if not centuries.

Mission accomplished.
 
2013-03-12 11:16:19 AM  

WTF Indeed: GAT_00: Which is basically saying that people in the ME can't run a democracy.  You think they can't decide for themselves what they want in governments?  I think the revolutions recently suggest otherwise.  Just because you don't like the democracies that they end up with doesn't make them bad democracies.  One of the flaws of the conservative mindset is this assumption that any democracy will be friendly to us because we've somehow infused them with our freedom by sharing the same government, and it simply doesn't work like that.

I'm going to be nice and explain how the world works.  The article asked why hasn't democracy worked out in Iraq over the last 10 years.  I said because they lacked the forces required to install a working democracy within that time frame or even a longer one.  For example, if I give person who has never touched a computer before a computer and told them how to run it, how far do you think they would get in it's use?  There was little to no institutional forces in Iraq that would allow a democracy to take hold, and these are things that take decades to build.


Egypt's been without one for just as long.  Libya too.  They were able to build one all by themselves.
 
2013-03-12 11:16:47 AM  
If only there were some way to redraw the lines using proper methods. Historical tribal, sectarian lines.
Of course, that would give power to currently split minorities and take power from current oppressive groups.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-03-12 11:17:10 AM  
Bush? Didn't he want a Conservated Iraq?
 
2013-03-12 11:17:12 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: It worked just fine.  Saddam is gone, and we replaced his highly ordered and controlled society with a festering hellhole of sectarian and religious conflict that will remain unstable for decades, if not centuries.

Mission accomplished.



Typical libs would rather have political stability in the region than remove the man who had WMDs ready to launch at the US and was responsible for 9/11.
 
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