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(Washington Post)   Is Obamacare about to raise taxes on the middle class by $1 TRILLION? Well, is it?   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 81
    More: Stupid, obamacare, middle class, income taxes, Debbie Wasserman Schultz  
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16768 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 11:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-03-12 12:21:10 PM  
8 votes:
Headline is a question?
Dollar amount without a time reference in the title?

i.imgur.com
2013-03-12 11:31:54 AM  
7 votes:
Best advice when you're trying to wade through all the complex political crap: If a Republican says it, its a lie.
2013-03-12 12:12:55 PM  
6 votes:

Great Janitor: I am licensed to sell health insurance so I am getting a kick...

I stopped selling health insurance and I am focusing on life insurance right now.  With Congress not knowing what is in the bill they passed, we don't know what insurance plans that are legal to sell today will remain legal in October when this goes into effect.  And it is going to really hurt coworkers of mine who have been in the business for ten to twenty years or more, have over two decades of built up residuals coming in each month that congress will put an end to


Good. Because that's the problem with insurance right there. I buy health insurance for 70 people every year. 5% of all the premiums for all my employees all year long goes right into the brokers pocket. And we wonder why health care has such an exorbitant cost. Well, to start with the 5% off the top does not pay for any medical treatments or benefit the subscriber whatsoever. So fark a bunch of schmucks still raking it in on a policy they sold twenty years ago.
2013-03-12 12:11:15 PM  
5 votes:

k1j2b3: Everyone HAD access to medical care before Obamacare came along.


Everyone had access to emergency medical care.

Start showing the symptoms of a long-running but manageable disease like MS and you're farked if you don't have insurance.

k1j2b3: So what did we solve exactly?


You mean apart from mandating that insurance companies not refuse people on the basis of pre-existing conditions?
Or that bit about them spending a large chunk on insurance and not on marketing and overhead?
Or that bit about expanding Medicaid?
Or that bit about letting children stay on their parents' plans longer - which is incredibly vital in this recession?

k1j2b3: And, in fact, people will STILL not have insurance with Obamacare.


And those people will pay a fine. Good.
2013-03-12 11:45:41 AM  
4 votes:
So, Americans are ok with spending a trillion dollars on wall street bailouts, the big 3 car company bailouts, the invasion of Iraq, and the aquisition of new nukes and military hardware. But. You're not ok with spending money on preventative medicine and a health care system that provides for everyone?

There's no tag that goes with that. It just leaves the rest of us using socialized medicine wondering why?

It's your country. Do with it what you want. I'm not judging.
2013-03-12 11:45:22 AM  
4 votes:
I am licensed to sell health insurance so I am getting a kick...

I stopped selling health insurance and I am focusing on life insurance right now.  With Congress not knowing what is in the bill they passed, we don't know what insurance plans that are legal to sell today will remain legal in October when this goes into effect.  And it is going to really hurt coworkers of mine who have been in the business for ten to twenty years or more, have over two decades of built up residuals coming in each month that congress will put an end to when Obamacare comes into effect.

One explanation about Obamacare that I read is that it is not just have some insurance and you won't be fined, but rather that Obamacare level insurance could run as high as $800/month for the average family.  But, with no pre-existing conditions, coverage beginning the moment you buy your policy, why should a healthy person buy insurance when taking the tax fine is cheaper?  Think of it this way: I am healthy.  I see a doctor less than once a year.  Mandatory health insurance is a waste of money for me, just pay the annual fine.  Now, let's say I broke my leg falling down the stairs.   All I have to do is buy insurance, which would take effect instantly, get fixed up, and as soon as the leg was healed, cancel the insurance.  And with no one being rejected for insurance, they can't legally stop me from buying insurance knowing that I was only going to cancel it the moment the cast came off.
2013-03-12 11:31:23 AM  
4 votes:
This appears to be one of those cases where "Middle Class" is a euphemism for "People just scraping by on $200K+/year"

Also, FTA:

Moreover, most calculations show that middle-income Americans are expected to get more in tax relief , such as health-care subsidies, than in additional tax hikes. CBO, for instance, indicates that middle-income Americans would receive about $1 trillion in premium credits in this 10-year period. So on a net basis, most middle-class Americans should expect to come out ahead.


=Smidge=
2013-03-12 11:22:29 AM  
4 votes:
Two things I do know that happened in the past two years due to Obamacare:

1) OTC medications can no longer be paid out of my medical FSA
2) The upper limit for a medical FSA was reduced from $5000/year to $2500/year

Will this hurt some people?  Probably.  Has my employer taken steps to make sure that employees who don't make much are impacted less?  Yes.  Is it worth it to ensure that everyone in the US has access to some level of health care?  Oh yeah.
2013-03-12 01:57:26 PM  
3 votes:

Great Janitor: You do need a salesman to walk you through your insurance sell to show you exactly what you're getting.


No, I do not.

You need someone knowledgeable.

One would assume companies who are providing a product would be staffed by people knowledgeable about that product. That need not be a commissioned salesperson - particularly when the entities he is representing are non-profits.

You can't test drive a policy like you can a car.

I don't need to. What I need to know is the premium, deductible, network, max out of pocket, etc. It's not brain surgery.

When I sell a policy I make crystal clear what the policy covers, what it won't, how to get it to cover what it's not covering (most policies have exclusions, conditions where the policy will never pay, like getting hurt while committing a felony for example), plus part of my job as salesman is to be the person to call when you have questions about your policy, instead of some call center in India.

You tell people the rules and provisions concerning what they are purchasing? How generous. There's a number on the back of the insurance card with a number on it. My insurance salesman does not answer that number when I call it. Nor does he do my COBRA administration. He doesn't even handle terminations or cancellations - I do that all online.

And when I say that no less than 65% of all money received must be paid out in claims, it's actually a lot higher. AFLAC, for example, pays over 80% in claims.

And there goes any credibility you might have had. AFLAC is one of the magic words around here and their salespeople aren't allowed in the building. If you sell that shiat you ought to be ashamed.
2013-03-12 01:10:16 PM  
3 votes:

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


youaresketch.typepad.com

AH, look! Crikey!

It's the elusive "I got mine, fark everyone else" mentality in it's wild, natural habitat! The anonymity of the internet literally allows it to be a complete dick to everyone else without fear of being called out and shamed by the rest of it's species.

Truly, truly majestic, it is. Beautiful plumage.
2013-03-12 12:24:07 PM  
3 votes:

CheekyMonkey: festoon: Best advice when you're trying to wade through all the complex political crap: If a Republican Politician says it, its a lie.

FTFY.


There's a big difference between Democrats and Republicans. A Democrat might steal candy from a baby, and then lie about it.

A Republican would steal candy from a baby, then they'd steal the baby. Then they'd try to convince you the damn socialist Demoncrats stole the baby, while they barbeque it, dice it up an serve it to you on a hoagie roll. And if you happen to recognize the baby on your plate slathered in BBQ sauce, with Republican fingerprints all over it, they'll try to blame it all on Obama.

At this point you can tell who the Tea Bagger is, because he'd be the one who'd dig in and start eating.
2013-03-12 11:56:36 AM  
3 votes:
This is the kind of false equivalence that pisses me off about the liberal mainstream media.

They break it down and Johnson just completely lied about the entire point he was making. He specifically was saying that middle income Americans were getting a $1 trillion tax hike under Obamacare. Now they said that the $1 trillion figure didn't come from thin air.... but that it wasn't the new taxes on the middle class and that ALSO on the balance middle income Americans were going to have more in credits then new taxes so they won't have a tax hike at all... they'll have a tax CREDIT. The opposite of what Johnson was claiming.

Now Schultz on the other hand said that Johnson's claim wasn't true... but because in the middle of her rebuttal she didn't insert the words "middle class" when responding to his false claim they rate her statement as JUST AS untrue as his... even though she was correct that he was full of shiat.

WTF? Liberal media my ass.
2013-03-12 11:52:55 AM  
3 votes:
I_C_Weener:
Where is my public option?!!!!

Ironically a public option would have forced private providers to compete honestly for once and pushed the medicine/medical insurance market closer to a perfectly competitive, free market equilibrium. So a single payer/public option (which didn't happen because socialism or something) would have been a better free market solution than the increased regulation that the Republican party forced us towards by opposing a single payer option.
2013-03-12 11:36:39 AM  
3 votes:

spentmiles: I hope they calculated in the cost of treating millions of cases of malnutrition after everyone is reduced to eating cat food and drinking rain water.


Cat food and rainwater is actually a more balanced diet than that which is currently eaten by many Americans.
2013-03-12 11:36:00 AM  
3 votes:

Twigz221: We really need to stop calling it Obamacare. It was written and passed by congress, not Obama.  Plus, before being passed it was so heavily altered by the Republicans due to demands by the insurance lobbyists that it hardly resembled what Obama proposed they do in the first place.


We will only stop calling it Obamacare if it becomes clear that the program is a success.

/we don't want Nobama taking credit for something positive
//in that unlikely event, we will not only start calling it the Affordable Care Act, we will act like we had always been calling it that
2013-03-12 11:32:34 AM  
3 votes:
We really need to stop calling it Obamacare. It was written and passed by congress, not Obama.  Plus, before being passed it was so heavily altered by the Republicans due to demands by the insurance lobbyists that it hardly resembled what Obama proposed they do in the first place.
2013-03-12 11:27:44 AM  
3 votes:

enry: Two things I do know that happened in the past two years due to Obamacare:

1) OTC medications can no longer be paid out of my medical FSA
2) The upper limit for a medical FSA was reduced from $5000/year to $2500/year

Will this hurt some people?  Probably.  Has my employer taken steps to make sure that employees who don't make much are impacted less?  Yes.  Is it worth it to ensure that everyone in the US has access to some level of health care?  Oh yeah.


FSA is a scam to distract you from higher deductibles and copayments allowing record high insurance company profits.
2013-03-12 11:13:29 AM  
3 votes:
Yay! Republican math thread.
2013-03-12 02:45:47 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: I can't answer why your salesman doesn't answer or return your calls. I may not answer my phone all the time, but I do return all calls. Doing so is in my best interest.


Regence BC answers every time I call. My agent is not regence - he's just a rep of the broker I am required to pay a commission to in order to buy that regence policy for my group.

First, I just pointed to another insurance company to explain that they pay more than 65% of their money in claims.  Secondly, what really is wrong with AFLAC.  I was injured in a car wreck where I was rear ended by a woman who was texting while driving.  I broke seven ribs and two shoulders.  In under a week AFLAC sent me a $5,000 check.  Since I was on disability leave and not making my full income, that $5,000 check was well needed to help make ends meet until I could go back to work three months after the car wreck.  Third, no, I don't sell AFLAC, but I do have positive experience from them.

AFLAC is not health insurance, it's a farking ponzi scheme. Good for you collecting on a short term disability claim. As an agent you should know that you can get a far better short term disability plan for much lower premiums than you pay aflac. You should thank your lucky stars you don't sell it. They rip their agents off worse than their subscribers.
2013-03-12 12:58:53 PM  
2 votes:

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare?


Because you live in a society.  Either suck it up and help out your neighbors, or take your whiney ass to the woods.
2013-03-12 12:30:21 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: And it is going to really hurt coworkers of mine who have been in the business for ten to twenty years or more, have over two decades of built up residuals coming in each month that congress will put an end to when Obamacare comes into effect.


Speaking as a person who's been in healthcare for almost twenty years, I'd like to say that I certainly hope that does turn out to be true.
2013-03-12 12:24:47 PM  
2 votes:

Thats No Moose: k1j2b3: Everyone HAD access to medical care before Obamacare came along.

Everyone had access to emergency medical care.

Start showing the symptoms of a long-running but manageable disease like MS and you're farked if you don't have insurance.

k1j2b3: So what did we solve exactly?

You mean apart from mandating that insurance companies not refuse people on the basis of pre-existing conditions?
Or that bit about them spending a large chunk on insurance and not on marketing and overhead?
Or that bit about expanding Medicaid?
Or that bit about letting children stay on their parents' plans longer - which is incredibly vital in this recession?

k1j2b3: And, in fact, people will STILL not have insurance with Obamacare.

And those people will pay a fine. Good.


Guess who those people will be? The low-wage workers who just got kicked from full-time to part-time work!  Not those with good jobs and health insurance. So you are okay with fining someone who makes too much money to qualify for Medicaid and can't afford to buy health insurance that has now become more expensive?  Ok. Way to care for the little guy.

And I guess you are happy with dis-incentivizing people to buy health insurance by allowing them to pay a fine until they feel they suddenly need health insurance...which then they can buy (due to the pre-existing condition situation you mentioned) with no problems?  How does this help anything?

Should we now target any other business out there who spends more than 15% of its profits on things beyond its products/services?  What about your internet service? Your cell service? Gasoline? Electricity?

Why are we focusing so much on the health care industry and what we consider to be allowable profits?  And not other businesses that also cause hardship to many people with high costs?
2013-03-12 12:05:30 PM  
2 votes:
Is it worth it to ensure that everyone in the US has access to some level of health care?  Oh yeah.

Everyone HAD access to medical care before Obamacare came along. Hospitals cannot turn patients away for lack of insurance or $$. In fact, states pay out millions every year to cover these people and hospitals lose money every year on these people.

And, in fact, people will STILL not have insurance with Obamacare. So what did we solve exactly? Sounds like we raised everyone's health insurance premiums, gave small businesses a reason to cut health insurance coverage, and made a lot of low-wage full-time workers into low-wage part-time workers--oh and we made everyone's tax forms a lot more complicated and intrusive. Not much of a solution, if you ask me.
2013-03-12 12:01:08 PM  
2 votes:

Enigmamf: enry:  ....  1) OTC medications can no longer be paid out of my medical FSA ....

If Republicans really wanted to de-fund birth control, all they would have to do is make it over-the-counter. Millions fewer women would be able to afford it (as insurance does not cover OTC meds).... and now they wouldn't even be able to use the FSA to reduce costs.


Some insurance does cover over the counter medications and I believe that the Affordable Healthcare Act requires insurance companies to cover birth control.

/also I'm pretty sure Congress can't just declare certain medications or classes of medicines to be OTC
2013-03-12 11:38:51 AM  
2 votes:

MattStafford: The only way to pay for this increase in health care is have other people foot the bill


No.  Part of the Republican objection to the plan was that people would be forced to purchase their own health care.

/Did I just feed the troll?
2013-03-12 11:33:05 AM  
2 votes:
I hope they calculated in the cost of treating millions of cases of malnutrition after everyone is reduced to eating cat food and drinking rain water.
2013-03-12 11:19:21 AM  
2 votes:
Well...if you squint a little...then the answer is sorta.  It is taxing the provider of "luxury" plans.  Which is being passed on to the end user in high premiums.  And it is raising taxes in lots of other areas...some related...like medical devices (not that every Middle Class person has them).

But, it might be safer to say, "Is this Obamacare costing some people more than before?"  And the answer is yes.  And it is making it more affordable for some to have health insurance.  But it really isn't lowering healthcare costs at all.

Where is my public option?!!!!  Let the government compete with private insurance with a subsidized plan or plans based on income and then you might see a reduction in costs of health insurance.  But I'm not sure how exactly you can lower the costs of healthcare in the 21st century.  The costs of new drugs is astronomical and there is no guarantee of a return, and even when you do get it patented and the right to distribute your drug it may take up to 20 years to recover the years of research and production involved in creating the drug.  Same with devices.   You might be able to cut into care costs like hospitalization, wages for medical staff, and stupid over priced stuff like $10 aspirin.  But a lot of medical care is expensive.  Otherwise, we'd all have an MRI machine in our basements.
2013-03-12 11:16:08 AM  
2 votes:
Obamacare will allow more people access to health care.  The only way to pay for this increase in health care is have other people foot the bill, as those doctor's aren't working for free.  As such, this will necessarily cause some people's bills to rise, either in the form of taxes or premiums.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as our country is wealthy and everyone should have access to health care, but to ignore that reality is disingenuous.

A better solution would be a guaranteed minimum income along with some sort of universal catastrophic coverage plan.  Let the market work for non life threatening procedures, but make sure health care costs don't bankrupt anyone.
2013-03-13 08:55:55 AM  
1 votes:
All you arseholes should leave your keyboards immediately and go exercise so I don't have to pay for your healthcare when you get fat. GO GO GO!
2013-03-12 08:18:47 PM  
1 votes:

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Please note up thread where I stated "I help local families".

I have no problem helping. I can't **stand** to see a hungry child and my wife and I are teaching our children to help those less fortunate.

I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.

noted.  & it's nice to see you aren't the fark you i got mine that i had though you were (because you were coming across as such).
now aside from the social benefits of being an American (of which there are many) there are always going to be programs that we agree with & disagree with.
it has always been my understanding that healthcare reform was intended to slow the rising costs that our government is already spending funds on, our taxes are already being spent, now why not use the mandate as a tool to get everyones skin in the game?
If you don't want it, take the taxation, look at is as a loophole you can't take advantage of or a tax deduction that you never use because you don't have children or own a home or something like that.
either way, we as a society benefit from a healthy society & that's something i will never have a problem contributing to.


That sidesteps the issue of the government already subsidizing it. Why don't we reform the tax dollars they already get and are spending poorly rather than pay MORE money for them to mismanage?

Looking back I did come across as an asshole. There's a disconnect between what I was thinking and what I was typing. My bad.

I still think there are better ways to do this than the mandate.
2013-03-12 08:09:18 PM  
1 votes:

IamAwake: Someone at $200k/y is not really that much better off, truly, than someone making $50k/y.


Having made both numbers at points in my career, you must be incredibly high to even conceive of this idea. I mean mind bogglingly high.

Slightly better car, slightly better house/apartment.  Going out to eat a bit more often at slightly better places.  Slightly fancier meals.  Vacations abroad, versus a local camping trip.

At 50k I was worried about paying my bills and barely saving for retirement if at all. At 200k I have about zero money related stress and I am able to significantly invest for retirement. This is not some minor difference. This is a massive quality of life difference. Just going from worrying about day to day money to feeling like retirement is not only possible but I can probably do it in style is an improvement in the quality of life on the scale of orders of power.

Your notion only applies to incredibly stupid people who make $200k and increase their standard of living to the point where they are still in debt.
2013-03-12 07:03:38 PM  
1 votes:

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.

everyone goes through life, each life is different, we all have had our ups and downs (actually, some well to-do's probably don't, constantly on the up).  some of the things you mention i find i've dealt with growing up, moving around a lot sucked (I was a military brat), dealt with alcoholism, the father out and about, hard times... and yes good times too, always hoping for the future & succeeding to a point then losing most of it then back on your feet again, & again, we are fortunate to have grown up in the geographic location we have.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that we as a society look out for one another as best we can. Entitlements? c'mon, stop sipping from the conservative spigot of misinformation, these people need help & we are going to help them, they aren't entitled to anything but death.  I apologize that your family didn't take advantage of the programs that are available to those who qualify but that's no reason to deny others the same services that are in place should be in place.

you should start to look at yourself & notice that there are others that have it worse than you do & hopefully you can have the opportunity to not only help yourself (as you've been able to do) but also help those less fortunate than you.


Please note up thread where I stated "I help local families".

I have no problem helping. I can't **stand** to see a hungry child and my wife and I are teaching our children to help those less fortunate.

I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.
2013-03-12 06:26:54 PM  
1 votes:

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".

oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!

Disingenuous you are, because I participate in society does not mean I was subsidized or handed anything. As far as access to work, my job wasn't handed to me. I had to prove to my employer I had the skills needed to either perform the job or the ability to learn through OJT.

How does me getting a job and earning my paycheck mean I need to subsidize someone who can't or won't?

you were fortunate enough to be born into a society that has done all the hard work to provide you with the easy life you live.  i loathe people like you, born on third & claim to have hit a triple.
We educated you, we fed you, we provide you with the environment to live the life you live & all you can't even admit that much.


I was "fortunate" enough to be born the 5th kid of 7. I am "fortunate" enough to remember staring at a Burger King and **wishing** we had money to eat. I was "fortunate" enough to have been born to an alcoholic mother and absent father. I was "fortunate" in that I was able to attend 5 different schools by 2nd grade.

You want to use the term "boot-strappy"? Yes. I'm boot strappy. I decided at an early age I was **not** going to live like that and my children were never going to go through what I did.

Did I struggle? Yes. Have I ever taken a handout? No.

Where were your precious handouts when I ate ketchup soup? Where was this "society" that did me all these favors?

Did I sit around and whine about how unfair life is? No. I got my from high school and went to work making sure I and mine were never going to be a burden and my kids would never go to bed hungry.

Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.
2013-03-12 06:13:00 PM  
1 votes:

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".

oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!


Disingenuous you are, because I participate in society does not mean I was subsidized or handed anything. As far as access to work, my job wasn't handed to me. I had to prove to my employer I had the skills needed to either perform the job or the ability to learn through OJT.

How does me getting a job and earning my paycheck mean I need to subsidize someone who can't or won't?
2013-03-12 05:58:46 PM  
1 votes:

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?


Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".
2013-03-12 04:46:08 PM  
1 votes:

machodonkeywrestler: kendelrio: machodonkeywrestler: kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!

Because you get the benefit of living in the USA, and therefore have to follow it's rules and regulations. If you want to not follow those laws, either move or risk penalties, but most important, STFU and stop whining.

Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.

No, but it sure as hell does in our founding document. So maybe we should be declaring war on all of you who take that viewpoint.


Please cite for me the part of the "founding document" that specifies the right to health care.
2013-03-12 04:05:48 PM  
1 votes:
If there are people who still think Team Obama is pulling for the middle class then they have crossed in to the realm of full retard
2013-03-12 03:00:32 PM  
1 votes:
Great Janitor:  Secondly, what really is wrong with AFLAC.  I was injured in a car wreck where I was rear ended by a woman who was texting while driving.  I broke seven ribs and two shoulders.  In under a week AFLAC sent me a $5,000 check.  Since I was on disability leave and not making my full income, that $5,000 check was well needed to help make ends meet until I could go back to work three months after the car wreck.  Third, no, I don't sell AFLAC, but I do have positive experience from them.

I don't know much about it aside from it basically being "I can't save even the smallest amount of money" insurance.

The hate comes from the droves of selling zombies pounding at the doors of any business (their sales people are 100% commission and pretty much anyone with a few hundred bucks can buy a "job").  The massive amount of shills on the internet doesn't help either.
2013-03-12 02:40:36 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


You already do pay for someone else's healthcare with EMTALA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_ La bor_Act

Wouldn't it be better to stop hiding the cost of covering people who are uninsured in America? If we put that cost on the table rather than pretending like it doesn't exist. Also, preventative care is cheaper than emergency room care. I've had a bill from an hour in trauma and it was absurd. The insurance company picked it up, but still. Crazy. And to think that people go to the Emergency Room because their strep throat is getting so bad they can't swallow water. Imagine if they could have had a cheap swab/culture/here's your penicillin visit. No, that would require universal care where we are honest about the cost of healthcare and address it openly.
2013-03-12 02:33:58 PM  
1 votes:

tylerdurden217: How about a a single non-profit payer system that covers basic healthcare for everyone in the US?


tylerdurden217
How about a a single non-profit payer system that covers basic healthcare for everyone in the US?


The right to not be sick or suffering from a treatable condition shouldn't be for profit.

But financing the old as balls who refuse to die with dignity, or the deliberately obese/unhealthy is what we are paying for. Oh the entitlement to life.
2013-03-12 02:32:08 PM  
1 votes:

Great Janitor: I am licensed to sell health insurance so I am getting a kick...

I stopped selling health insurance and I am focusing on life insurance right now.  With Congress not knowing what is in the bill they passed, we don't know what insurance plans that are legal to sell today will remain legal in October when this goes into effect.  And it is going to really hurt coworkers of mine who have been in the business for ten to twenty years or more, have over two decades of built up residuals coming in each month that congress will put an end to when Obamacare comes into effect.

One explanation about Obamacare that I read is that it is not just have some insurance and you won't be fined, but rather that Obamacare level insurance could run as high as $800/month for the average family.  But, with no pre-existing conditions, coverage beginning the moment you buy your policy, why should a healthy person buy insurance when taking the tax fine is cheaper?  Think of it this way: I am healthy.  I see a doctor less than once a year.  Mandatory health insurance is a waste of money for me, just pay the annual fine.  Now, let's say I broke my leg falling down the stairs.   All I have to do is buy insurance, which would take effect instantly, get fixed up, and as soon as the leg was healed, cancel the insurance.  And with no one being rejected for insurance, they can't legally stop me from buying insurance knowing that I was only going to cancel it the moment the cast came off.


Yes. We know. That's why you should support single payer.
2013-03-12 02:27:19 PM  
1 votes:
Hey, is this the thread where I say that Obamacare is stupid because people will make the obviously logical and rational decision to drop their health insurance after it goes into effect and pay a fine instead of dropping it now and paying no fine at all?

That makes sense. Keep making that argument.

Or wait, is this the thread where people who don't understand the first thing about healthcare prices or economics and pretend that they aren't currently paying for the people who don't have insurance and think that now that people are mandated to have insurance, the cost to them is somehow going up?

Or is it both? I think what we need is education reform, because there's a lot of really stupid people out there.
2013-03-12 02:24:13 PM  
1 votes:

craig328: Medical care is expensive because the act doesn't address tort reform...period.

Doctors pay ridiculously high malpractice premiums because judges and juries award ridiculous damage awards and it costs a litigant nothing to bring a lawsuit because for even borderline ludicrous claims, its more cost effective to settle rather than defend and go to trial.  What this does is force doctors to practice defensive medicine, ordering every single test they can think of so they can't be adjudged to be negligent later on.

Remove much of the lawsuit incentive, reform malpractice laws to discourage lawsuits in the first place while retaining access to the courts for egregious cases and you deflate a major driver of what drives costs through the roof.  The U.S. spends the highest, by far, per capita on healthcare and are no healthier than the rest of the world and unhealthier than many.  One of the differences in the costs is our civil court system.  It's nice to have most of the time...but this ain't one of them.

And it won't be meaningfully addressed because we elect lawyers to Congress way more than any other occupational group.


This is a myth. The cost of lawsuits represents less than .5% of the cost of healthcare.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226036480/

What would you cap mal-practice at? What if a parent brings a child to the doctor for a routine surgery and halfway in the doctors realize they don't have the right blood type for the child and cannot give a transfusion. The child gets permanent brain damage and will need around the clock care and will not be able to mature intellectually as a result of a bone headed move by the doctor. What if this was the hospital's fault because they mis labeled the blood and had a history of doing this and had covered it up? The parents bring a suit against the hospital and win a whopping $250,000. Good luck providing care for a child with that drop in the bucket. Even if the tort reform excluded the cost of care from the cap, this child could have been a healthy productive member of society, but gross negligence on the part of the system ruined this persons life. And the punitive damage is limited to $250K. That is such a tiny amount that the hospital wouldn't even notice it on their books.
2013-03-12 02:22:09 PM  
1 votes:
Great Janitor:

Please tell I am not the only one to be thinking this when reading that tripe

www.fuenf-filmfreunde.de
2013-03-12 02:15:47 PM  
1 votes:

craig328: Medical care is expensive because the act doesn't address tort reform...period.


Not correct.
2013-03-12 02:12:26 PM  
1 votes:

JohnBigBootay: What's funny is that some people think that 65% of insurance premiums going to pay medical costs is somehow a good number. I build freakin' houses. If you give me $100 you can bet your sweet ass that AT LEAST $85 went to pay the labor materials and subs to build that house and it's quite often more than that. Then I pay all my overhead and STILL turn a profit with the $15 left over.


You're not comparing apples to apples.  The 65% mentioned doesn't cover ANY of the labor of the insurance company, but you're including your own labor.  Take out your labor costs and see if you can still hit 65%.

And by the way, that 65% figure is a mandated minimum, not the desired target.  I've worked for two of the largest insurers in the country, and they were constantly trying to get their own labor and admin costs down as low as they could possibly go.  And then some more.  Their ideal for claim costs was 90%, even though they knew they could never reach it.  Dumping the brokers would have given them a free 13-18%!  It's just too bad that, in many states, insurers are required to use brokers, because of the brokers' lobby.
2013-03-12 01:57:23 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


The "screw you, I got mine!" Mentality in action here folx...
2013-03-12 01:49:47 PM  
1 votes:

JohnBigBootay: Great Janitor: You do realize that by law, all money taken in by health insurance companies, no less than 65% of that money must be paid on claims. That means that health insurance companies must pay all employees, including salesmen, secretaries, all the utility bills, marketing, other costs of running a company out of 35% of the money taken in each month. So, your money isn't being wasted on brokers and salesmen. Your money, if it's not going to the well being of your employees, is going to the well being of others who are insured through the same people insuring your employees

And that borders on criminal. It should be much higher than that. For instance we use one of the blues, which is technically a non-profit. 35% to overhead and administration would barely qualify as a shiatty charity. Paying 5% of health care premiums to a salesman is archaic and wasteful to say the least. I do not need a farking salesman to choose an insurance policy any more than I need a salesman to choose a car or book an airline ticket. I spend almost three hundred grand a year on health insurance. The fact that the first $14k off the top of that goes into a salesman's pocket before paying for any health costs is absurd on its face.


Check the facts on your Blue plan. BCBS of AL is above 95% to claims. Yours is likely close.
2013-03-12 01:45:39 PM  
1 votes:

Smidge204: This appears to be one of those cases where "Middle Class" is a euphemism for "People just scraping by on $200K+/year"

Also, FTA:

Moreover, most calculations show that middle-income Americans are expected to get more in tax relief , such as health-care subsidies, than in additional tax hikes. CBO, for instance, indicates that middle-income Americans would receive about $1 trillion in premium credits in this 10-year period. So on a net basis, most middle-class Americans should expect to come out ahead.


=Smidge=


I think they need to clarify. Real middle class people will not get subsidies. Middle class is not 40k a year any more, not even close. Not even 80k per family should be considered middle class.

Obamacare is nothing but a gigantic hit on the economy, and a boon to the insurance companies, the IRS, and the government.
2013-03-12 01:42:03 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare?

Because you live in a society.  Either suck it up and help out your neighbors, or take your whiney ass to the woods.


Seriously.  The day the government asks me if I want my taxes to be used to make bombs to kill brown poors is the day I give a fark about where the teatards want their money to go.
2013-03-12 01:37:05 PM  
1 votes:

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: tylerdurden217: How about a a single non-profit payer system that covers basic healthcare for everyone in the US?

Why hello there, tovarisch fellow traveler!


Whenever I think of a command economy of some failed state, I remember how it all began with universal health care. Then some other things happened and before you knew it an oppressive totalitarian dictatorship was sending ruling and the once free citizens were left wondering, "How did this all happen?"
2013-03-12 01:17:17 PM  
1 votes:

Twigz221: We really need to stop calling it Obamacare. It was written and passed by congress, not Obama.  Plus, before being passed it was so heavily altered by the Republicans due to demands by the insurance lobbyists that it hardly resembled what Obama proposed they do in the first place.


But CongressCare is an oxymoron.
2013-03-12 01:15:49 PM  
1 votes:

Great Janitor: You do realize that by law, all money taken in by health insurance companies, no less than 65% of that money must be paid on claims. That means that health insurance companies must pay all employees, including salesmen, secretaries, all the utility bills, marketing, other costs of running a company out of 35% of the money taken in each month. So, your money isn't being wasted on brokers and salesmen. Your money, if it's not going to the well being of your employees, is going to the well being of others who are insured through the same people insuring your employees


And that borders on criminal. It should be much higher than that. For instance we use one of the blues, which is technically a non-profit. 35% to overhead and administration would barely qualify as a shiatty charity. Paying 5% of health care premiums to a salesman is archaic and wasteful to say the least. I do not need a farking salesman to choose an insurance policy any more than I need a salesman to choose a car or book an airline ticket. I spend almost three hundred grand a year on health insurance. The fact that the first $14k off the top of that goes into a salesman's pocket before paying for any health costs is absurd on its face.
2013-03-12 01:02:06 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


Sounds like someone doesn't like living in a society.
2013-03-12 12:57:27 PM  
1 votes:
Remember who the WSJ thinks is middle class:

si.wsj.net
2013-03-12 12:55:22 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


Same reason you pay for any other safety net.  Social Contract, and all that jazz.
2013-03-12 12:53:55 PM  
1 votes:

IamAwake: Smidge204: This appears to be one of those cases where "Middle Class" is a euphemism for "People just scraping by on $200K+/year"

Someone at $200k/y is not really that much better off, truly, than someone making $50k/y.  Slightly better car, slightly better house/apartment.  Going out to eat a bit more often at slightly better places.  Slightly fancier meals.  Vacations abroad, versus a local camping trip.

That's still middle class.  Very much so.  If you distance yourself from those people - and feel they're the problem - you're just following in the footsteps of the idiots who idolize Che'.

There's a video about it that is making the rounds, re-explaining this again.  Doctors and engineers aren't your enemy, we're there with you.  Aim your bile at CEOs, investment bankers, etc:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM


lol 50k a year is middle class?  oh god
2013-03-12 12:52:33 PM  
1 votes:

Smidge204: This appears to be one of those cases where "Middle Class" is a euphemism for "People just scraping by on $200K+/year"


Someone at $200k/y is not really that much better off, truly, than someone making $50k/y.  Slightly better car, slightly better house/apartment.  Going out to eat a bit more often at slightly better places.  Slightly fancier meals.  Vacations abroad, versus a local camping trip.

That's still middle class.  Very much so.  If you distance yourself from those people - and feel they're the problem - you're just following in the footsteps of the idiots who idolize Che'.

There's a video about it that is making the rounds, re-explaining this again.  Doctors and engineers aren't your enemy, we're there with you.  Aim your bile at CEOs, investment bankers, etc:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
2013-03-12 12:47:28 PM  
1 votes:
Look, he didn't want it to come to this. But you free loading poors forced his hand. So if it means getting rid of healthcare for you maggots, Ryan will reluctantly balance the budget and reduce the deficit. Happy now?
2013-03-12 12:41:07 PM  
1 votes:

indarwinsshadow: So, Americans are ok with spending a trillion dollars on wall street bailouts, the big 3 car company bailouts, the invasion of Iraq, and the aquisition of new nukes and military hardware. But. You're not ok with spending money on preventative medicine and a health care system that provides for everyone?

There's no tag that goes with that. It just leaves the rest of us using socialized medicine wondering why?

It's your country. Do with it what you want. I'm not judging.


This.

As a "smug Canadian" I support Obamacare and hope it comes to be. Really though, theres no hope. It'll never fly. Enjoy paying for your doctor visits! At least you won't have to pay taxes right?
2013-03-12 12:40:31 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare?


You wouldn't.  Part of the Republican objection to the plan was that people would be forced topurchase their own health care.
2013-03-12 12:38:20 PM  
1 votes:

MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.


You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!
2013-03-12 12:38:01 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: IRQ12: By the way this is not "Obamacare".

It is "Corporatecare" brought to you by Obama and friends.

Oh yeah, I'm sure they're just thrilled about all the new things they have to cover and the removal of yearly caps. And the 80/20 rule. Just thrilled.


Sure beats that single payer system that everyone wanted Obamacare to be. That might have put a few of them out of business when people didn't have to spend 30%+ of their monthly income in some cases paying for bottom of the barrel health insurance coverage.
2013-03-12 12:31:57 PM  
1 votes:
By the way this is not "Obamacare".

It is "Corporatecare" brought to you by Obama and friends.
2013-03-12 12:29:02 PM  
1 votes:

Thats No Moose: Everyone had access to emergency medical care.


Even that was questionable. EMTALA only states you have to have a medical screening exam to rule out life- and limb-threatening emergencies. Beyond that, a Hospital has to do nothing for you.
2013-03-12 12:22:17 PM  
1 votes:

Twigz221: We really need to stop calling it Obamacare. It was written and passed by congress, not Obama.  Plus, before being passed it was so heavily altered by the Republicans due to demands by the insurance lobbyists that it hardly resembled what Obama proposed they do in the first place.


That's why Nancy Pelosi insisted we had to pass it to find out what was in it.
2013-03-12 12:21:40 PM  
1 votes:

JohnBigBootay: Great Janitor: I am licensed to sell health insurance so I am getting a kick...

I stopped selling health insurance and I am focusing on life insurance right now.  With Congress not knowing what is in the bill they passed, we don't know what insurance plans that are legal to sell today will remain legal in October when this goes into effect.  And it is going to really hurt coworkers of mine who have been in the business for ten to twenty years or more, have over two decades of built up residuals coming in each month that congress will put an end to

Good. Because that's the problem with insurance right there. I buy health insurance for 70 people every year. 5% of all the premiums for all my employees all year long goes right into the brokers pocket. And we wonder why health care has such an exorbitant cost. Well, to start with the 5% off the top does not pay for any medical treatments or benefit the subscriber whatsoever. So fark a bunch of schmucks still raking it in on a policy they sold twenty years ago.


Except that lawyers cost you more medical dollars on a day in, day out basis than Maury, "Salesman of the Month", in June 2003 ever will.
2013-03-12 12:16:52 PM  
1 votes:
Great another thread where only one or two people know what they are talking about but everyone else just regurgitates the talking points their party.


\Seriously Wasserman Shultz as an authority on anything but bad hair.  Really.
2013-03-12 12:12:37 PM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: I_C_Weener:
Where is my public option?!!!!

Ironically a public option would have forced private providers to compete honestly for once and pushed the medicine/medical insurance market closer to a perfectly competitive, free market equilibrium. So a single payer/public option (which didn't happen because socialism or something) would have been a better free market solution than the increased regulation that the Republican party forced us towards by opposing a single payer option.


I know.  I think single payer has some benefits, but a public option that consolidated Medicare, Medicaid together would have made some sense.  No need to have 3 groups doing the same thing.  And as you said, it would have offered subsidized competition for the health insurance companies out there.  They either compete to lower premiums or offer a better product for higher premiums allowing for multi-level options for all Americans.  It also would avoid the problems of single payer such as waiting lists to see doctors who would remain private employees, not employees of the government.

Basically, it would have allowed for innovation, and the best of what we have, but made it more affordable for all of us.  Basically, an improved version of Canada and Europe models.
2013-03-12 12:10:13 PM  
1 votes:
What is the definition of middle-class?  It seems middle-class to republicans is on the order of $250,000 to $500,000 a year.

But it is easier to invoke outrage when people don't all agree on what is defined as middle-class, because everyone thinks they are in the middle-class if they don't consider themselves as "rich"
KIA
2013-03-12 12:08:26 PM  
1 votes:
There is no miracle of the fishes and the loaves here people. Huge, expensive promises were made for prescription drug care and then expanded for general health care. Someone has to pay for that now and you, dear middle class, with your victimization and white guilt mentality hoped that any change would be good. You're wrong. Pay up.
2013-03-12 12:07:52 PM  
1 votes:
Look; I'm the last guy who's going to claim the ACA was perfect.

But after the 'Baggers spend four years convincing the population that the bill was too complex to work, or even be understood by themselves or their constituents, and running on a platform of OVERTURNING IT WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT WAS IN IT,*  how the hell am I supposed to believe anything any of them have to say about it?

*Seriously. That was Chip Cravaack's campaign in 2010 - "I haven't read it, let's overturn it."
2013-03-12 11:56:43 AM  
1 votes:
enry:  ....  1) OTC medications can no longer be paid out of my medical FSA ....

If Republicans really wanted to de-fund birth control, all they would have to do is make it over-the-counter. Millions fewer women would be able to afford it (as insurance does not cover OTC meds).... and now they wouldn't even be able to use the FSA to reduce costs.

But Republican voters are far too un-subtle to 'get' that, ensuring a backlash of titanic proportions if they actually took the single most effective step towards eliminating what they see as the greatest evil in society since universal suffrage. It's hilarious.
2013-03-12 11:45:24 AM  
1 votes:

tylerdurden217: How about a a single non-profit payer system that covers basic healthcare for everyone in the US?


Socialism. Because you're cutting out insturance executives from their entitled profits. Because fr-profit insurance which denies claims isn't socialism.
2013-03-12 11:30:05 AM  
1 votes:

born_yesterday: J.Shelby: Citrate1007: Yay! Republican math thread.

Ohh, I love math!  Is this the part where we divide by zero?

[gonzoj.files.wordpress.com image 560x373]

Man, I hope they teched up to perimeter defenses before they built that; the mindworms are sure to be pissed.


That's why you go green - all the boreholes you want, amiright?
2013-03-12 11:20:52 AM  
1 votes:
If it looks like caca.......smells like caca......and tastes like caca......then it must be Obamacare
2013-03-12 11:19:14 AM  
1 votes:
0bamacare is going to Socialism your guns and gay marry you to a FEMA camp in Benghazi.
2013-03-12 11:15:47 AM  
1 votes:
"More importantly, doesn't it kind of feel like it is when you keep having to see headlines like this? I mean, if this administration cared about The United States of America wouldn't it not include these non existent tax hikes, provisions, decrees, etc. in its legislation? Why do they keep not putting these in their agenda? What is there agenda here and how can we be sure it isn't not this?"
2013-03-12 10:48:18 AM  
1 votes:
No.
2013-03-12 10:33:36 AM  
1 votes:
You're getting a 3.8% tax increase for just buying a home people!!
2013-03-12 10:32:06 AM  
1 votes:
Is Obama going to use that money to fund Friends of Hamas? Well, is he?

I'm just asking questions here
 
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