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(Washington Post)   Is Obamacare about to raise taxes on the middle class by $1 TRILLION? Well, is it?   ( divider line
    More: Stupid, obamacare, middle class, income taxes, Debbie Wasserman Schultz  
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16793 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 11:11 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2013-03-12 08:14:14 PM  

profplump: kendelrio: Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me.

Yes there is. Ignoring the ethical arguments:

1. Other people being healthy is good for you. More economic output, less transmittable disease, larger economies of scale, etc., etc., etc. This is just basic economics and not particularly related to healthcare. You can argue about the relative value of the benefits vs. the costs, but to say "there is no benefit" is clearly false.

2. You're pre-funding your own healthcare. Right now you (claim that you) can afford the healthcare you want. That's great. But one of the goals of the system is to guarantee that you'll continue to be able to get the healthcare you need even if you cease being able to afford it. You might not want that benefit, but it's a benefit nonetheless.

I understand your logic in point #1. As a society, we all benefit from healthy people.
As far as #2, that is why I am saving for my families future medical costs. I have many friends who depend on the VA for health care, and while it is low cost (or free) for them, by and large it is a beaurocracy (sp?) and the health care they receive reflects that. My goal is to not depend on a government body to make my health decisions.
2013-03-12 08:18:47 PM  

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Please note up thread where I stated "I help local families".

I have no problem helping. I can't **stand** to see a hungry child and my wife and I are teaching our children to help those less fortunate.

I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.

noted.  & it's nice to see you aren't the fark you i got mine that i had though you were (because you were coming across as such).
now aside from the social benefits of being an American (of which there are many) there are always going to be programs that we agree with & disagree with.
it has always been my understanding that healthcare reform was intended to slow the rising costs that our government is already spending funds on, our taxes are already being spent, now why not use the mandate as a tool to get everyones skin in the game?
If you don't want it, take the taxation, look at is as a loophole you can't take advantage of or a tax deduction that you never use because you don't have children or own a home or something like that.
either way, we as a society benefit from a healthy society & that's something i will never have a problem contributing to.

That sidesteps the issue of the government already subsidizing it. Why don't we reform the tax dollars they already get and are spending poorly rather than pay MORE money for them to mismanage?

Looking back I did come across as an asshole. There's a disconnect between what I was thinking and what I was typing. My bad.

I still think there are better ways to do this than the mandate.
2013-03-12 08:20:34 PM  

profplump: kendelrio: Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.

The constitution doesn't declare or limit the rights of the people, it merely defines and limits the rights of the government. The people's rights are inherent, and if the people decide that they have a right to healthcare it's up to the government to find support in the constitution to regulate or otherwise curtail that right.

You can argue about whether or not access to healthcare is a right in the first place, or about whether the government should act in support of that right if it exists, or about whether the government should promote access to healthcare even if we decide it's not a right, but to argue that we only have the rights guaranteed in the constitution is fundamentally flawed.

That is a very good point and well explained. Thank you. It certainly gives me a different perspective.
2013-03-12 08:23:05 PM  

profplump: kendelrio: I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.

I wouldn't murder people even if it were legal. But I still think it's a good idea to have a law against murder. It has no practical effect on my freedoms and offers protection against people who do not believe or act as I do with respect to murder.

It would be great if we could all just agree how to deal with each other and provide all the protections and help that are necessary without being asked. But not everyone agrees on all topics, not everyone is informed and involved enough to care even if they agreed, and there are non-trivial tasks in the coordination of effort and resources even if we agreed and all cared the same amount about all issues.

Which is why we devised methods for enforcing compliance with shared social goals in the first place. I agree, laws reduce freedom. But the also help us build the society we want.

But this **does** have an effect on my liberties on that the added cost of this mandate directly impedes my right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If I'm so broke from paying taxes I can't take my family to the local campground for a weekend, where is my happiness?
2013-03-12 08:32:50 PM  
mongbiohazard: He isn't just pulling that out of thin air. Hospitals are quiet about it, but many of them DO compare the amount of tests that the doctors in their their hospital order and will reprimand them if they are on the lower end of the scale. The NPR Planet Money team mentioned that in this elucidating podcast recently on why healthcare costs what it costs (HIGHLY worth a few minutes to listen to it). The hospitals make money from those tests, and if you have studied economics you'll know what generally happens when people have incentives to do things...

Calling for speculation based on "what generally happens when people have incentives to do things... " and references to non-specific reprimands targeting doctors, based on claims made by the terminated physicians, from a podcast that assuredly has an agenda against for-profit health care of not the same thing as facts.

I'm not saying these claims are entirely fabricated, but I also think the common "welfare queen" drama we hear from the right is not entirely fabricated either. Those anecdotes of what people swear their closest friend saw in a convenience store in Atlanta should not be confused with verifiable evidence.
2013-03-12 09:06:52 PM  

indarwinsshadow: So, Americans are ok with spending a trillion dollars on wall street bailouts, the big 3 car company bailouts, the invasion of Iraq, and the aquisition of new nukes and military hardware. But. You're not ok with spending money on preventative medicine and a health care system that provides for everyone?

There's no tag that goes with that. It just leaves the rest of us using socialized medicine wondering why?

It's your country. Do with it what you want. I'm not judging.

No, No, No, and finally no.

Not OK with any of it.  Next question.
2013-03-12 09:12:21 PM  

indarwinsshadow: So, Americans are ok with spending a trillion dollars on wall street bailouts, the big 3 car company bailouts, the invasion of Iraq, and the aquisition of new nukes and military hardware. But. You're not ok with spending money on preventative medicine and a health care system that provides for everyone?

There's no tag that goes with that. It just leaves the rest of us using socialized medicine wondering why?

It's your country. Do with it what you want. I'm not judging.

Liberals and Conservatives want the same thing: elimination of poverty. They just go about it different ways... Liberals try to build programs to help make poor people less poor, and Conservatives try to simply eliminate poor people.

But it's obvious that neither side will really succeed as long as the other is around.
2013-03-12 09:58:11 PM  
HAHAHAHAHA, as if anyone actually cared about you people.

Hospitals and Insurances Co's will get theirs, from you, at a increased rate.

The freeloaders will still use the emergency room for the sniffles, paid for by you, the workers.

Congress, and whomsoever is/will be sitting in the White house will get a better plan than any Fortune 50 CEO could dream of, paid for, by you the taxpayers that are left.

And the "Single-Payer" dorks will rant until someone finally put them out of my misery.

Hmmm, have I left anything out?

0bama is truley and honestly proving that he is an American, as we are the only nation on the face of this planet, that could produce such a pile of fecal scum with his sense of entitlement.

I'm taking my disability check up to the Casino now, and spending it in cheap rum, and rigged black jack.

Thanks America!
2013-03-12 10:00:27 PM  
This $1 trillion in new taxes will surely result in a net positive impact to jobs and the economy while extending the lifespan and quality of life of every American.
2013-03-12 10:11:58 PM  

spentmiles: I hope they calculated in the cost of treating millions of cases of malnutrition after everyone is reduced to eating cat food and drinking rain water.

I like cat food, especially the good crunchy stuff, with a little skim milk to wash it down.
2013-03-12 10:57:47 PM  

plewis: So yes, as a responsible citizen, this is the change I had hoped for.

You are nothing like a responsible citizen if you want to incur trillion-dollar deficits for government mismanagement.
2013-03-12 10:58:07 PM  

Hermione_Granger: The problem with this type of logic is that health issues do not work this way. You can die of a toothache if it's left unattended long enough. Health issues that start out small and manageable work their way up to deadly if not treated.

This is why we should pay more attention to issues while they're small and manageable and not wait until they become catastrophic.

People don't treat these small, manageable issues because they do not have the money to treat these small manageable issues.  They wait until they're deadly, then go to the emergency room so they don't have to pay.  We should fix the first part of that equation, and give them the money so they can treat these small manageable issues.
2013-03-12 11:47:54 PM  

kendelrio: MattStafford: Obamacare will allow more people access to health care.  The only way to pay for this increase in health care is have other people foot the bill, as those doctor's aren't working for free.  As such, this will necessarily cause some people's bills to rise, either in the form of taxes or premiums.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as our country is wealthy and everyone should have access to health care, but to ignore that reality is disingenuous.

A better solution would be a guaranteed minimum income along with some sort of universal catastrophic coverage plan.  Let the market work for non life threatening procedures, but make sure health care costs don't bankrupt anyone.

Why don't we buy everyone a car too? Everyone needs transportation! We can just average out the cost to everyone!

It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

Except, you're already paying for it ... 3 times over.  You pay for your families (sic) healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of your check. BECAUSE all the uninsured people who run up $80,000 bills getting their kidneys removed because of undiagnosed high blood pressure aren't paying those bills. YOU ARE -- that's why your health care bill is so high.
2013-03-13 08:55:55 AM  
All you arseholes should leave your keyboards immediately and go exercise so I don't have to pay for your healthcare when you get fat. GO GO GO!
2013-03-13 03:28:07 PM  

kendelrio: tylerdurden217:

You do now, but back in your ketchup soup days, did you mother take any assistance that she almost certainly qualified for? Like WIC or Foodstamps?

To my knowledge, no. It was in those days we ate ketchup soup. My mother was never one to "get in the system". I know for a fact she had multiple warrants and was scared of being picked up. A few times she **did** go to jail, we inevitable went into the CPS system until she got out and somehow got us back.

I think it would be far more better and bootstrappy if, instead of going to a government run and paid for CPS system you were simply thrown out onto the street as the founders intended.

Why should *I* have had to pay for your mother's mistakes?
2013-03-13 03:28:20 PM  

tylerdurden217: People_are_Idiots: Be honest with you, I lost $150-200 a paycheck due to new taxes, so I'm not getting a kick.

If you are single, then you would have to make well in excess of $400,000 / year for your taxes to have gone up. Unless of course you are talking about the 2% increase in your share of the payroll tax. That wasn't an increase so much as it was an expiration to the temporary tax holiday. They reduced the Social Security tax from 6.2% to 4.2% for 2011, it was extended to 2012, but then it expired. It's really not a big deal. Especially if you really have lost $200, because if you get paid every 2 weeks and you make $10,000 a check, you are doing pretty well at $260,000/year.

I make $50k a year...
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