profplump: kendelrio: Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me.Yes there is. Ignoring the ethical arguments:1. Other people being healthy is good for you. More economic output, less transmittable disease, larger economies of scale, etc., etc., etc. This is just basic economics and not particularly related to healthcare. You can argue about the relative value of the benefits vs. the costs, but to say "there is no benefit" is clearly false.2. You're pre-funding your own healthcare. Right now you (claim that you) can afford the healthcare you want. That's great. But one of the goals of the system is to guarantee that you'll continue to be able to get the healthcare you need even if you cease being able to afford it. You might not want that benefit, but it's a benefit nonetheless.
Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Please note up thread where I stated "I help local families".I have no problem helping. I can't **stand** to see a hungry child and my wife and I are teaching our children to help those less fortunate.I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.noted. & it's nice to see you aren't the fark you i got mine that i had though you were (because you were coming across as such).now aside from the social benefits of being an American (of which there are many) there are always going to be programs that we agree with & disagree with.it has always been my understanding that healthcare reform was intended to slow the rising costs that our government is already spending funds on, our taxes are already being spent, now why not use the mandate as a tool to get everyones skin in the game?If you don't want it, take the taxation, look at is as a loophole you can't take advantage of or a tax deduction that you never use because you don't have children or own a home or something like that.either way, we as a society benefit from a healthy society & that's something i will never have a problem contributing to.
profplump: kendelrio: Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.The constitution doesn't declare or limit the rights of the people, it merely defines and limits the rights of the government. The people's rights are inherent, and if the people decide that they have a right to healthcare it's up to the government to find support in the constitution to regulate or otherwise curtail that right.You can argue about whether or not access to healthcare is a right in the first place, or about whether the government should act in support of that right if it exists, or about whether the government should promote access to healthcare even if we decide it's not a right, but to argue that we only have the rights guaranteed in the constitution is fundamentally flawed.
profplump: kendelrio: I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.I wouldn't murder people even if it were legal. But I still think it's a good idea to have a law against murder. It has no practical effect on my freedoms and offers protection against people who do not believe or act as I do with respect to murder.It would be great if we could all just agree how to deal with each other and provide all the protections and help that are necessary without being asked. But not everyone agrees on all topics, not everyone is informed and involved enough to care even if they agreed, and there are non-trivial tasks in the coordination of effort and resources even if we agreed and all cared the same amount about all issues.Which is why we devised methods for enforcing compliance with shared social goals in the first place. I agree, laws reduce freedom. But the also help us build the society we want.
indarwinsshadow: So, Americans are ok with spending a trillion dollars on wall street bailouts, the big 3 car company bailouts, the invasion of Iraq, and the aquisition of new nukes and military hardware. But. You're not ok with spending money on preventative medicine and a health care system that provides for everyone?There's no tag that goes with that. It just leaves the rest of us using socialized medicine wondering why?It's your country. Do with it what you want. I'm not judging.
spentmiles: I hope they calculated in the cost of treating millions of cases of malnutrition after everyone is reduced to eating cat food and drinking rain water.
plewis: So yes, as a responsible citizen, this is the change I had hoped for.
Hermione_Granger: The problem with this type of logic is that health issues do not work this way. You can die of a toothache if it's left unattended long enough. Health issues that start out small and manageable work their way up to deadly if not treated.This is why we should pay more attention to issues while they're small and manageable and not wait until they become catastrophic.
kendelrio: MattStafford: Obamacare will allow more people access to health care. The only way to pay for this increase in health care is have other people foot the bill, as those doctor's aren't working for free. As such, this will necessarily cause some people's bills to rise, either in the form of taxes or premiums. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as our country is wealthy and everyone should have access to health care, but to ignore that reality is disingenuous.A better solution would be a guaranteed minimum income along with some sort of universal catastrophic coverage plan. Let the market work for non life threatening procedures, but make sure health care costs don't bankrupt anyone.Why don't we buy everyone a car too? Everyone needs transportation! We can just average out the cost to everyone!It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.
kendelrio: tylerdurden217:You do now, but back in your ketchup soup days, did you mother take any assistance that she almost certainly qualified for? Like WIC or Foodstamps?To my knowledge, no. It was in those days we ate ketchup soup. My mother was never one to "get in the system". I know for a fact she had multiple warrants and was scared of being picked up. A few times she **did** go to jail, we inevitable went into the CPS system until she got out and somehow got us back.
tylerdurden217: People_are_Idiots: Be honest with you, I lost $150-200 a paycheck due to new taxes, so I'm not getting a kick.If you are single, then you would have to make well in excess of $400,000 / year for your taxes to have gone up. Unless of course you are talking about the 2% increase in your share of the payroll tax. That wasn't an increase so much as it was an expiration to the temporary tax holiday. They reduced the Social Security tax from 6.2% to 4.2% for 2011, it was extended to 2012, but then it expired. It's really not a big deal. Especially if you really have lost $200, because if you get paid every 2 weeks and you make $10,000 a check, you are doing pretty well at $260,000/year.
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