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(Washington Post)   Is Obamacare about to raise taxes on the middle class by $1 TRILLION? Well, is it?   ( washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Stupid, obamacare, middle class, income taxes, Debbie Wasserman Schultz  
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16793 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 11:11 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 04:58:59 PM  

JohnBigBootay: The Missing Link: That is how the "entitled" justify things, "well everybody else is doing it". That is a big problem with today's entitled society and what got us into this healthcare mess. "Everybody else is cheating the system, I should too." "Everybody else has a cell phone, I should get one too. even though I cant afford it".

/Doesn't make it right

Insurance is for those costs that no working person could reasonably be expected to afford. A bad car wreck or a single instance of cancer can have claim costs that exceed what most bootstrappers will earn in a lifetime. All the pontificating in the world won't change that. You either have good health insurance or the state bears the cost.


"Hot air. You too will become old and infirm one day. And if (heaven forbid) one of your kids gets bone marrow cancer you'll queue up in the handout line like anyone else would and your fair weather insistence that you pay your own way will be conveniently forgotten. "

I don't think you were talking about insurance when you made this statement. You were talking about hand outs and taking advantage of the system "like everyone else would"

I am not that old but the real people that helped build this country would be embarrassed to take the handouts you are talking about. The steel and factory workers of the 20's, 30's and so on would never take the handouts unless they truly needed it. They would never think of taking advantage of a system because "everyone else is doing it" Have some F'ing pride!
 
2013-03-12 05:00:19 PM  

IRQ12: TheHumanCannonball: ....They louder they yell, the more I ignore them.

You shouldn't because sometimes, much to your and my own chagrin, they are yelling because it's a message people need to hear.

People applauding being virtually forced to give money to the very companies that have destroyed our healthcare system is insanity to me.  Regardless of how much you think Obama is a super rad guy.


I don't think Obama is super rad.

What I do think, that everyone should have access to basic healthcare, and in the case of emergencies, treatment that won't result in bankruptcy. If ObamaCare gets us closer to that than the current system, then it's a step in the right direction. I wish it had gone further, but we've ended up where we are.
 
2013-03-12 05:03:39 PM  

TheHumanCannonball: IRQ12: TheHumanCannonball: ....They louder they yell, the more I ignore them.

You shouldn't because sometimes, much to your and my own chagrin, they are yelling because it's a message people need to hear.

People applauding being virtually forced to give money to the very companies that have destroyed our healthcare system is insanity to me.  Regardless of how much you think Obama is a super rad guy.

I don't think Obama is super rad.

What I do think, that everyone should have access to basic healthcare, and in the case of emergencies, treatment that won't result in bankruptcy. If ObamaCare gets us closer to that than the current system, then it's a step in the right direction. I wish it had gone further, but we've ended up where we are.


Obamacare did nothing to help control healthcare cost. It changed who is going to pay for it but did nothing to control the cost of healthcare.
 
2013-03-12 05:04:40 PM  

kendelrio: Wrong. Part of that pay that I am busting my ass for goes into a "disaster fund". Granted, it may not cover a million dollars of health care costs, but between it and insurance, I should be ok. As far as old and infirm, I'm saving so I don't rely on social security. If you state "what of your savings are gone?", them there is nothing I can do. I AM, however planning and saving so myself and my family aren't dependent on any type of government handouts.


No matter how much you save, you will end up using Medicare when you turn 65. If you want to supplement on top of that, fine, but you will be on medicare. Why not expand that to make everyone eligible? We could conceivably wipe out the deficit by doing that alone. Young healthy adults contributing more to Medicare while not using many services would generate revenue for the program.
 
2013-03-12 05:06:01 PM  

kendelrio: Wrong. Part of that pay that I am busting my ass for goes into a "disaster fund".


Hey, me too. I'm kind of bootstrappy myself in that I have documented earned income every year of my life all the way back to 13 years old. I've saved 15% of every paycheck since I was 28 and I'm 47. Prior to the recent healthcare legislation my policy had a million dollar limit that could easily have been exceeded by a chronic health problem like ALS or the oft mentioned bone marrow cancer. I have plenty, save more than most, waste not want not and all that and I can easily imagine a medical bankruptcy.

Granted, it may not cover a million dollars of health care costs,

Yeah, it won't.

but between it and insurance, I should be ok.

So you have health insurance you just don't think you should have to have health insurance? Is that it?

As far as old and infirm, I'm saving so I don't rely on social security.

But if it's still there you'll refuse it, right?

If you state "what of your savings are gone?", them there is nothing I can do. I AM, however planning and saving so myself and my family aren't dependent on any type of government handouts.

Here's to having life unfold exactly as you plan.
 
2013-03-12 05:08:16 PM  

JohnBigBootay: kendelrio: Wrong. Part of that pay that I am busting my ass for goes into a "disaster fund".

Hey, me too. I'm kind of bootstrappy myself in that I have documented earned income every year of my life all the way back to 13 years old. I've saved 15% of every paycheck since I was 28 and I'm 47. Prior to the recent healthcare legislation my policy had a million dollar limit that could easily have been exceeded by a chronic health problem like ALS or the oft mentioned bone marrow cancer. I have plenty, save more than most, waste not want not and all that and I can easily imagine a medical bankruptcy.

Granted, it may not cover a million dollars of health care costs,

Yeah, it won't.

but between it and insurance, I should be ok.

So you have health insurance you just don't think you should have to have health insurance? Is that it?

As far as old and infirm, I'm saving so I don't rely on social security.

But if it's still there you'll refuse it, right?

If you state "what of your savings are gone?", them there is nothing I can do. I AM, however planning and saving so myself and my family aren't dependent on any type of government handouts.

Here's to having life unfold exactly as you plan.


"Hot air. You too will become old and infirm one day. And if (heaven forbid) one of your kids gets bone marrow cancer you'll queue up in the handout line like anyone else would and your fair weather insistence that you pay your own way will be conveniently forgotten. "
 
2013-03-12 05:17:12 PM  

tylerdurden217: kendelrio: Wrong. Part of that pay that I am busting my ass for goes into a "disaster fund". Granted, it may not cover a million dollars of health care costs, but between it and insurance, I should be ok. As far as old and infirm, I'm saving so I don't rely on social security. If you state "what of your savings are gone?", them there is nothing I can do. I AM, however planning and saving so myself and my family aren't dependent on any type of government handouts.

No matter how much you save, you will end up using Medicare when you turn 65. If you want to supplement on top of that, fine, but you will be on medicare. Why not expand that to make everyone eligible? We could conceivably wipe out the deficit by doing that alone. Young healthy adults contributing more to Medicare while not using many services would generate revenue for the program.


That's what social security was supposed to do.
 
2013-03-12 05:20:07 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.

No offense, but you stating something as a fact doesn't make it a fact.  Societies, by definition, do not need to have the 'strong' helping the 'weak'.  They may or may not.  That's like me saying 'Societies all have sports teams'.  Some do, some don't, but my statement is incorrect.

You might think all societies *should* have the strong help the weak, but that's an opinion.  I might even agree.  But the alternative to that is *not* living alone in a cave.  That's a false dilemma.


No, it's not a false dilemma or false dichotomy at all.  Nor is it an opinion when it's part of the very definition of "society."

What IS up for debate is to what degree the strong must help the weak, or in what ways.  That they must do so to some degree in some ways, however, is not up for debate.  If you truly believe that one member has no obligation whatsoever to any other member, then what you want isn't a society; it's a bunch of anarchists living in the same space.

Funny how both us us seem to want to use "by definition" as proof of our point.  It would seem that at least  one of us doesn't understand what a society is.  Or, possibly, we are not as completely in disagreement as it first appeared.  That also happens on Fark.
 
2013-03-12 05:23:14 PM  

The Missing Link: I don't think you were talking about insurance when you made this statement. You were talking about hand outs and taking advantage of the system "like everyone else would"

I am not that old but the real people that helped build this country would be embarrassed to take the handouts you are talking about. The steel and factory workers of the 20's, 30's and so on would never take the handouts unless they truly needed it. They would never think of taking advantage of a system because "everyone else is doing it" Have some F'ing pride!


Isn't this the romantic fantasy that is routinely dismantled every single time it is mentioned on Fark? The idea that people in the 20's and 30's were more moral because they didn't take handouts, even though that's not at all true?

The 20's: Women finally win the right to vote. Schools were segregated and there was such a strong fear of immigrants destroying the racial hygiene of America that the federal government limited immigration.

But people were too proud to take handouts, got it.
 
2013-03-12 05:25:32 PM  
the Texas high risk pool cost me 1,200+  a month for 20/80 and one doctor visit a year
and that was 4 or 5 years ago

the Federal high risk pool is under 700 with much better coverage

thanks Obama

.
 
2013-03-12 05:26:26 PM  

TheHumanCannonball: IRQ12: TheHumanCannonball: ....They louder they yell, the more I ignore them.

You shouldn't because sometimes, much to your and my own chagrin, they are yelling because it's a message people need to hear.

People applauding being virtually forced to give money to the very companies that have destroyed our healthcare system is insanity to me.  Regardless of how much you think Obama is a super rad guy.

I don't think Obama is super rad.

What I do think, that everyone should have access to basic healthcare, and in the case of emergencies, treatment that won't result in bankruptcy. If ObamaCare gets us closer to that than the current system, then it's a step in the right direction. I wish it had gone further, but we've ended up where we are.


I agree with you and I think that it takes us no closer to that.  I actually think the harm it is doing to the broad public sentiment supporting reform/Single payer is hurting the overall cause.
 
2013-03-12 05:32:48 PM  

kendelrio: That's what social security was supposed to do.


You are like a magic disinformation machine.
 
2013-03-12 05:33:43 PM  

kendelrio: ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.

And if I do, I will pay for it. I don't expect society to pick up my slack.



Are you seriously claiming to be able to go live on a desert island Robinson Crusoe-style all by yourself for 30 years, or are you missing my point out of belligerent stupidity?

If you want to live in a society, you have an obligation to that society, and that includes paying for things you don't personally benefit from (schools even when your children don't attend them, research to find a cure for cancer even though you don't have cancer, or roads even if you don't have a car).   And if you don't like doing that, then either grit your teeth and bear it (just like I have to grit my teeth and pay for wars I don't like), or go somewhere else and stop bothering the civilized folks.

"I don't think society really needs this" is a valid argument to make against a political expenditure.  "I don't want it because it doesn't benefit me personally" isn't an argument.  It's just an announcement of mindless self-absorption.
 
2013-03-12 05:35:34 PM  

IRQ12: I agree with you and I think that it takes us no closer to that.  I actually think the harm it is doing to the broad public sentiment supporting reform/Single payer is hurting the overall cause.


I worried about that as well, but then I read about Vermont and a push to get a single payer system for the entire state.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81267.html

If Vermont successfully sets up a system that is efficient and can proves the concept as a success within the US, then other states may follow suit. If enough states end up following the model, the entire country could eventually be single payer.
 
2013-03-12 05:36:36 PM  
Gdalescrboz: If there are people who still think Team Obama is pulling for the middle class then they have crossed in to the realm of full retard

There were many sections of the Affordable Care Act that were vigorously fought against, and ultimately removed from ACA - much of it in the support of cost savings or regulation.  Yes, Tort Reform should have been followed, but other steps could be taken to lower the PRICE of healthcare.  Many of these have to do with the defensive medical practices outlined above, but there are also monetary incentives to add more tests and use more machines.  Medicare could cost a lot less per year if Congress would allow Medicare to negotiate with Pharmaceuticals on the cost of drugs.  Also, the cost of some materials is beyond leverage.

If anyone can find the time, Time magazine had a fascinating article about the Cost of Healthcare -vs- the PRICE of Healthcare - especially if you're visiting a hopital, at which time you're not able to consider the cost - only the outcome.

http://healthland.time.com/why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/

The number of issues that drive the PRICE of healthcare higher than they need to be leads to a complexity of solutions; if they are pursued, there are going to be parts of that solution that will be hard to take on both sides, but they'll definitely be fighting uphill against a lobbying effort that is far larger than even Defense Industry lobbying.  Even if legislation is introduced to suggest cost savings, they'll be interpreted as loss of choice or "Death Panels" by Conservatives.  Tort Reform?  "How can we judge the cost of a life?"  We'll hear that from the liberals.  But until these decisions can be made, there is no real means to slow down Healthcare PRICES.

"More expensive is better" is a typical mindset for the patient - but mostly they don't lead to better results. Since doctors are theones ordering the tests and are pretty decent at knowing the pros and cons of how it affects the patient (and generally the fiscal bottom line), it is probably going to take a collaboration between Doctors and the Government to cut down on multiple tests or overtesting.  But if Doctors profit from more testing or more lab work, how does the government convince doctors to cut down on a "good thing" - which they can justify as "defensive medicine"?  I'd think we'd have to establish monetary incentives for Doctors to achieve good results that don't cost as much.Because it might not work any other way; disincentivize them on one side and incentivize them on the other.

It is reasonable to want affordable health insurance in this country.  It should also be reasonable to establish oversight on an industry that is 20% of the economy - and it's the biggest bubble out there.
 
2013-03-12 05:37:54 PM  
Obamacare nailed your mom last night, just like everybody else.
 
2013-03-12 05:44:16 PM  

tylerdurden217: If Vermont successfully sets up a system that is efficient and can proves the concept as a success within the US, then other states may follow suit. If enough states end up following the model, the entire country could eventually be single payer.


Optimism is good. But we're ultimately gonna have to nuke alabama, mississippi and lousiana at the least. Lots of good land down there but the population of those states do not seem capable of generating more tax dollars than they consume in entitlement programs. which, when looking at a national election map, could very safely qualify as ironic.
 
2013-03-12 05:46:28 PM  

k1j2b3: Everyone HAD access to medical care before Obamacare came along. Hospitals cannot turn patients away for lack of insurance or $$. In fact, states pay out millions every year to cover these people and hospitals lose money every year on these people.


Please describe the procedure by which hospitals provide regular chemotherapy and other cancer treatment sessions to patients lacking money and insurance.
 
2013-03-12 05:53:12 PM  

kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.


like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?
 
2013-03-12 05:57:03 PM  

tylerdurden217: IRQ12: I agree with you and I think that it takes us no closer to that.  I actually think the harm it is doing to the broad public sentiment supporting reform/Single payer is hurting the overall cause.

I worried about that as well, but then I read about Vermont and a push to get a single payer system for the entire state.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81267.html

If Vermont successfully sets up a system that is efficient and can proves the concept as a success within the US, then other states may follow suit. If enough states end up following the model, the entire country could eventually be single payer.


See, that guy knows how to set a bar and motivate his base.

And it points another reason the bill is a failure.  It really didn't open up any real options or paths towards single payer.
 
2013-03-12 05:58:46 PM  

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?


Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".
 
2013-03-12 06:08:21 PM  

kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".


oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!
 
2013-03-12 06:10:10 PM  

IRQ12: And it points another reason the bill is a failure.  It really didn't open up any real options or paths towards single payer.


I agree with you on that being a failure of the PPACA. It really should have given states an automatic exemption from the Health Care exchanges if they set up a Single Payer system. I'm hopeful that Vermont can get something done by 2017.

Republicans would never have gone for a Single Payer system. They immediately jumped on the "Death Panel" smear campaign. Sadly no one on the right ever listened to that and asked whether the private, profit driven insurance companies that answer to stock holders have anything like Death Panels.
 
2013-03-12 06:13:00 PM  

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".

oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!


Disingenuous you are, because I participate in society does not mean I was subsidized or handed anything. As far as access to work, my job wasn't handed to me. I had to prove to my employer I had the skills needed to either perform the job or the ability to learn through OJT.

How does me getting a job and earning my paycheck mean I need to subsidize someone who can't or won't?
 
2013-03-12 06:15:42 PM  

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".

oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!


And I said I don't rely on social **hand outs**. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that I don't want to subsidize other people's problems?
 
2013-03-12 06:17:26 PM  

kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".

oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!

Disingenuous you are, because I participate in society does not mean I was subsidized or handed anything. As far as access to work, my job wasn't handed to me. I had to prove to my employer I had the skills needed to either perform the job or the ability to learn through OJT.

How does me getting a job and earning my paycheck mean I need to subsidize someone who can't or won't?


you were fortunate enough to be born into a society that has done all the hard work to provide you with the easy life you live.  i loathe people like you, born on third & claim to have hit a triple.
We educated you, we fed you, we provide you with the environment to live the life you live & all you can't even admit that much.
 
2013-03-12 06:19:27 PM  

kendelrio: And I said I don't rely on social **hand outs**. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that I don't want to subsidize other people's problems?


not hard at all, i am absolutely accepting the fact that you got yours & F#@$ everyone else.
 
2013-03-12 06:26:23 PM  

kendelrio: And I said I don't rely on social **hand outs**.


Be thankful that the union as a whole doesn't take the same philosophy toward your state. Lousiana is an entitlement black hole with no hope of becoming self sufficient any time soon.
 
2013-03-12 06:26:54 PM  

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Isitoveryet: kendelrio: I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

like you don't expect society to provide you with fuel for the "Deuce" or do you refine you own oil that you harvest from thin air?

Actually, I "pay" for the fuel for my deuce with the "money" I earn in my "paycheck".

oh so you do interact in a social environment & have a job, sure was nice of that society to set you up with access to employment ! Money? you mean the monetary notes that our government prints as a means to exchange currency? paycheck! well i bet you just stuff that piece of paper under you mattress & don't even spend it or do you cash it? or deposit it into that bank you have an account with?   you were kinda hinting that you relied upon society for Zero, turns out you actually participate in one!  Congratulations!

Disingenuous you are, because I participate in society does not mean I was subsidized or handed anything. As far as access to work, my job wasn't handed to me. I had to prove to my employer I had the skills needed to either perform the job or the ability to learn through OJT.

How does me getting a job and earning my paycheck mean I need to subsidize someone who can't or won't?

you were fortunate enough to be born into a society that has done all the hard work to provide you with the easy life you live.  i loathe people like you, born on third & claim to have hit a triple.
We educated you, we fed you, we provide you with the environment to live the life you live & all you can't even admit that much.


I was "fortunate" enough to be born the 5th kid of 7. I am "fortunate" enough to remember staring at a Burger King and **wishing** we had money to eat. I was "fortunate" enough to have been born to an alcoholic mother and absent father. I was "fortunate" in that I was able to attend 5 different schools by 2nd grade.

You want to use the term "boot-strappy"? Yes. I'm boot strappy. I decided at an early age I was **not** going to live like that and my children were never going to go through what I did.

Did I struggle? Yes. Have I ever taken a handout? No.

Where were your precious handouts when I ate ketchup soup? Where was this "society" that did me all these favors?

Did I sit around and whine about how unfair life is? No. I got my from high school and went to work making sure I and mine were never going to be a burden and my kids would never go to bed hungry.

Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.
 
2013-03-12 06:28:11 PM  

kendelrio: How does me getting a job and earning my paycheck mean I need to subsidize someone who can't or won't?


Because you don't just get to opt out of part of the whole. You get to benefit from so many things that the government provides for you and you can't just pick and choose like some a la carte menu. "Ah, let's see... I'll have the clean drinking water, oh and air too, I love clean air. And let's have paved roads, I'll probably need police, fire department, just in case. Um, hold the Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, I'll never be needy."

Most of us don't want to live in a country with starving children. So you get to live in that country too. I assume you like 95% of it. You just have to swallow the idea that extreme poverty comes with a very small safety net and yes, some extremely small percentage of what tax liability you have DOES go to that. Even though you aren't totally on board.
 
2013-03-12 06:32:20 PM  

kendelrio: I was "fortunate" enough to be born the 5th kid of 7. I am "fortunate" enough to remember staring at a Burger King and **wishing** we had money to eat. I was "fortunate" enough to have been born to an alcoholic mother and absent father. I was "fortunate" in that I was able to attend 5 different schools by 2nd grade.

You want to use the term "boot-strappy"? Yes. I'm boot strappy. I decided at an early age I was **not** going to live like that and my children were never going to go through what I did.

Did I struggle? Yes. Have I ever taken a handout? No.

Where were your precious handouts when I ate ketchup soup? Where was this "society" that did me all these favors?

Did I sit around and whine about how unfair life is? No. I got my from high school and went to work making sure I and mine were never going to be a burden and my kids would never go to bed hungry.

Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.


You do now, but back in your ketchup soup days, did you mother take any assistance that she almost certainly qualified for? Like WIC or Foodstamps?
 
2013-03-12 06:34:47 PM  

Smidge204: This appears to be one of those cases where "Middle Class" is a euphemism for "People just scraping by on $200K+/year"

Also, FTA:

Moreover, most calculations show that middle-income Americans are expected to get more in tax relief , such as health-care subsidies, than in additional tax hikes. CBO, for instance, indicates that middle-income Americans would receive about $1 trillion in premium credits in this 10-year period. So on a net basis, most middle-class Americans should expect to come out ahead.


=Smidge=


Be honest with you, I lost $150-200 a paycheck due to new taxes, so I'm not getting a kick.
 
2013-03-12 06:36:45 PM  

kendelrio: Did I sit around and whine about how unfair life is? No. I got my from high school


After that diatribe one would assume that you went to a private school and paid your own tuition? Surely you did not attend a federally subsidized public school...
 
2013-03-12 06:37:36 PM  

tylerdurden217: kendelrio: I was "fortunate" enough to be born the 5th kid of 7. I am "fortunate" enough to remember staring at a Burger King and **wishing** we had money to eat. I was "fortunate" enough to have been born to an alcoholic mother and absent father. I was "fortunate" in that I was able to attend 5 different schools by 2nd grade.

You want to use the term "boot-strappy"? Yes. I'm boot strappy. I decided at an early age I was **not** going to live like that and my children were never going to go through what I did.

Did I struggle? Yes. Have I ever taken a handout? No.

Where were your precious handouts when I ate ketchup soup? Where was this "society" that did me all these favors?

Did I sit around and whine about how unfair life is? No. I got my from high school and went to work making sure I and mine were never going to be a burden and my kids would never go to bed hungry.

Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.

You do now, but back in your ketchup soup days, did you mother take any assistance that she almost certainly qualified for? Like WIC or Foodstamps?


To my knowledge, no. It was in those days we ate ketchup soup. My mother was never one to "get in the system". I know for a fact she had multiple warrants and was scared of being picked up. A few times she **did** go to jail, we inevitable went into the CPS system until she got out and somehow got us back.
 
2013-03-12 06:40:01 PM  

kendelrio: A few times she **did** go to jail, we inevitable went into the CPS system

..

Now that sucks most assuredly. It's also a program that is 'free' to its participants as a result of the contribution by the community at large. Like the public schools you went to.
 
2013-03-12 06:44:15 PM  

People_are_Idiots: Be honest with you, I lost $150-200 a paycheck due to new taxes, so I'm not getting a kick.


If you are single, then you would have to make well in excess of $400,000 / year for your taxes to have gone up. Unless of course you are talking about the 2% increase in your share of the payroll tax. That wasn't an increase so much as it was an expiration to the temporary tax holiday. They reduced the Social Security tax from 6.2% to 4.2% for 2011, it was extended to 2012, but then it expired. It's really not a big deal. Especially if you really have lost $200, because if you get paid every 2 weeks and you make $10,000 a check, you are doing pretty well at $260,000/year.
 
2013-03-12 06:48:53 PM  

kendelrio: To my knowledge, no. It was in those days we ate ketchup soup. My mother was never one to "get in the system". I know for a fact she had multiple warrants and was scared of being picked up. A few times she **did** go to jail, we inevitable went into the CPS system until she got out and somehow got us back.


If all of this is true, it's a sad story. But if your mother had collected some assistance, you would have received better nutrition via WIC and Foodstamps. Would you have a problem with the "system" if you had received milk, eggs, bread, etc. from WIC and a simple yet basic meal via Food Stamps? Your situation wasn't your fault, it was your parents' fault. This is the exact reason I would like to see these programs improved, not eliminated. By all means, control the waste, but we shouldn't be the richest and most powerful country in the world and also let people starve. No thanks.
 
2013-03-12 06:53:20 PM  

Pangea: MyKingdomForYourHorse: Also, in hospitals many doctors are not part of the actual hospital staff and instead are fee for service based physicians and the hospital takes a portion of the cut so to speak...<snip>... In those instances, in order to keep access to that income stream physicians will order everything under the sun to avoid black marks which might lose them that income stream.

But lets not let facts get in the way of your bumbling in this thread.


In the fantasy you describe, you're claiming that an imaginary doctor will be dismissed as a service provider from a hospital that determines he is not ordering enough questionable tests from which they take their percentage.

Certainly you can cite facts to distinguish this claim from a scenario you have pictured in your mind, especially given the manner in which you dismissed the target of your fictional claim.



He isn't just pulling that out of thin air. Hospitals are quiet about it, but many of them DO compare the amount of tests that the doctors in their their hospital order and will reprimand them if they are on the lower end of the scale. The NPR Planet Money team mentioned that in this elucidating podcast recently on why healthcare costs what it costs (HIGHLY worth a few minutes to listen to it). The hospitals make money from those tests, and if you have studied economics you'll know what generally happens when people have incentives to do things...
 
2013-03-12 06:55:00 PM  

tylerdurden217: kendelrio: To my knowledge, no. It was in those days we ate ketchup soup. My mother was never one to "get in the system". I know for a fact she had multiple warrants and was scared of being picked up. A few times she **did** go to jail, we inevitable went into the CPS system until she got out and somehow got us back.

If all of this is true, it's a sad story. But if your mother had collected some assistance, you would have received better nutrition via WIC and Foodstamps. Would you have a problem with the "system" if you had received milk, eggs, bread, etc. from WIC and a simple yet basic meal via Food Stamps? Your situation wasn't your fault, it was your parents' fault. This is the exact reason I would like to see these programs improved, not eliminated. By all means, control the waste, but we shouldn't be the richest and most powerful country in the world and also let people starve. No thanks.


It's absolutely true and I agree with you, which is why I prefer I prefer to donate on my own. I help local families where I live and I **know** it is being properly used.

As I stated up thread, it's the lack of choice that galls me.

I'm all for helping, but is it charity if you're forced to give it?
 
2013-03-12 06:57:44 PM  

kendelrio: Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.


everyone goes through life, each life is different, we all have had our ups and downs (actually, some well to-do's probably don't, constantly on the up).  some of the things you mention i find i've dealt with growing up, moving around a lot sucked (I was a military brat), dealt with alcoholism, the father out and about, hard times... and yes good times too, always hoping for the future & succeeding to a point then losing most of it then back on your feet again, & again, we are fortunate to have grown up in the geographic location we have.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that we as a society look out for one another as best we can. Entitlements? c'mon, stop sipping from the conservative spigot of misinformation, these people need help & we are going to help them, they aren't entitled to anything but death.  I apologize that your family didn't take advantage of the programs that are available to those who qualify but that's no reason to deny others the same services that are in place should be in place.

you should start to look at yourself & notice that there are others that have it worse than you do & hopefully you can have the opportunity to not only help yourself (as you've been able to do) but also help those less fortunate than you.
 
2013-03-12 06:57:50 PM  
kendelrio:Please cite for me the part of the "founding document" that specifies the right to health care.

"life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

And yes, that specifically includes "health, and indolency of body."
 
2013-03-12 07:03:38 PM  

Isitoveryet: kendelrio: Do I feel "entitled"? No. I've earned mine.

everyone goes through life, each life is different, we all have had our ups and downs (actually, some well to-do's probably don't, constantly on the up).  some of the things you mention i find i've dealt with growing up, moving around a lot sucked (I was a military brat), dealt with alcoholism, the father out and about, hard times... and yes good times too, always hoping for the future & succeeding to a point then losing most of it then back on your feet again, & again, we are fortunate to have grown up in the geographic location we have.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that we as a society look out for one another as best we can. Entitlements? c'mon, stop sipping from the conservative spigot of misinformation, these people need help & we are going to help them, they aren't entitled to anything but death.  I apologize that your family didn't take advantage of the programs that are available to those who qualify but that's no reason to deny others the same services that are in place should be in place.

you should start to look at yourself & notice that there are others that have it worse than you do & hopefully you can have the opportunity to not only help yourself (as you've been able to do) but also help those less fortunate than you.


Please note up thread where I stated "I help local families".

I have no problem helping. I can't **stand** to see a hungry child and my wife and I are teaching our children to help those less fortunate.

I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.
 
2013-03-12 07:13:26 PM  

kendelrio: Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me.


Yes there is. Ignoring the ethical arguments:

1. Other people being healthy is good for you. More economic output, less transmittable disease, larger economies of scale, etc., etc., etc. This is just basic economics and not particularly related to healthcare. You can argue about the relative value of the benefits vs. the costs, but to say "there is no benefit" is clearly false.

2. You're pre-funding your own healthcare. Right now you (claim that you) can afford the healthcare you want. That's great. But one of the goals of the system is to guarantee that you'll continue to be able to get the healthcare you need even if you cease being able to afford it. You might not want that benefit, but it's a benefit nonetheless.
 
2013-03-12 07:14:15 PM  

kendelrio: Please note up thread where I stated "I help local families".

I have no problem helping. I can't **stand** to see a hungry child and my wife and I are teaching our children to help those less fortunate.

I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.


noted.  & it's nice to see you aren't the fark you i got mine that i had though you were (because you were coming across as such).
now aside from the social benefits of being an American (of which there are many) there are always going to be programs that we agree with & disagree with.
it has always been my understanding that healthcare reform was intended to slow the rising costs that our government is already spending funds on, our taxes are already being spent, now why not use the mandate as a tool to get everyones skin in the game?
If you don't want it, take the taxation, look at is as a loophole you can't take advantage of or a tax deduction that you never use because you don't have children or own a home or something like that.
either way, we as a society benefit from a healthy society & that's something i will never have a problem contributing to.
 
2013-03-12 07:20:48 PM  

kendelrio: Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.


The constitution doesn't declare or limit the rights of the people, it merely defines and limits the rights of the government. The people's rights are inherent, and if the people decide that they have a right to healthcare it's up to the government to find support in the constitution to regulate or otherwise curtail that right.

You can argue about whether or not access to healthcare is a right in the first place, or about whether the government should act in support of that right if it exists, or about whether the government should promote access to healthcare even if we decide it's not a right, but to argue that we only have the rights guaranteed in the constitution is fundamentally flawed.
 
2013-03-12 07:20:49 PM  

JohnBigBootay: kendelrio: And I said I don't rely on social **hand outs**.

Be thankful that the union as a whole doesn't take the same philosophy toward your state. Louisiana is an entitlement black hole with no hope of becoming self sufficient any time soon.


Ahhh.
 
2013-03-12 07:22:22 PM  

profplump: kendelrio: Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.

The constitution doesn't declare or limit the rights of the people, it merely defines and limits the rights of the government. The people's rights are inherent, and if the people decide that they have a right to healthcare it's up to the government to find support in the constitution to regulate or otherwise curtail that right.

You can argue about whether or not access to healthcare is a right in the first place, or about whether the government should act in support of that right if it exists, or about whether the government should promote access to healthcare even if we decide it's not a right, but to argue that we only have the rights guaranteed in the constitution is fundamentally flawed.


I think you used too many big words for him.
 
2013-03-12 07:32:35 PM  

kendelrio: I disagree with being told I **have** to, regardless of my feelings on the matter.


I wouldn't murder people even if it were legal. But I still think it's a good idea to have a law against murder. It has no practical effect on my freedoms and offers protection against people who do not believe or act as I do with respect to murder.

It would be great if we could all just agree how to deal with each other and provide all the protections and help that are necessary without being asked. But not everyone agrees on all topics, not everyone is informed and involved enough to care even if they agreed, and there are non-trivial tasks in the coordination of effort and resources even if we agreed and all cared the same amount about all issues.

Which is why we devised methods for enforcing compliance with shared social goals in the first place. I agree, laws reduce freedom. But the also help us build the society we want.
 
2013-03-12 08:08:52 PM  
Three responses coming, unfortunately the mobile app doesn't allow multiple quotes.
 
2013-03-12 08:09:18 PM  

IamAwake: Someone at $200k/y is not really that much better off, truly, than someone making $50k/y.


Having made both numbers at points in my career, you must be incredibly high to even conceive of this idea. I mean mind bogglingly high.

Slightly better car, slightly better house/apartment.  Going out to eat a bit more often at slightly better places.  Slightly fancier meals.  Vacations abroad, versus a local camping trip.

At 50k I was worried about paying my bills and barely saving for retirement if at all. At 200k I have about zero money related stress and I am able to significantly invest for retirement. This is not some minor difference. This is a massive quality of life difference. Just going from worrying about day to day money to feeling like retirement is not only possible but I can probably do it in style is an improvement in the quality of life on the scale of orders of power.

Your notion only applies to incredibly stupid people who make $200k and increase their standard of living to the point where they are still in debt.
 
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