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(Washington Post)   Is Obamacare about to raise taxes on the middle class by $1 TRILLION? Well, is it?   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 316
    More: Stupid, obamacare, middle class, income taxes, Debbie Wasserman Schultz  
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16768 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 11:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 02:33:40 PM  

kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


Because you get the benefit of living in the USA, and therefore have to follow it's rules and regulations. If you want to not follow those laws, either move or risk penalties, but most important, STFU and stop whining.
 
2013-03-12 02:33:58 PM  

tylerdurden217: How about a a single non-profit payer system that covers basic healthcare for everyone in the US?


tylerdurden217
How about a a single non-profit payer system that covers basic healthcare for everyone in the US?


The right to not be sick or suffering from a treatable condition shouldn't be for profit.

But financing the old as balls who refuse to die with dignity, or the deliberately obese/unhealthy is what we are paying for. Oh the entitlement to life.
 
2013-03-12 02:34:11 PM  

tylerdurden217: This is a myth. The cost of lawsuits represents less than .5% of the cost of healthcare.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226036480/

What would you cap mal-practice at? What if a parent brings a child to the doctor for a routine surgery and halfway in the doctors realize they don't have the right blood type for the child and cannot give a transfusion. The child gets permanent brain damage and will need around the clock care and will not be able to mature intellectually as a result of a bone headed move by the doctor. What if this was the hospital's fault because they mis labeled the blood and had a history of doing this and had covered it up? The parents bring a suit against the hospital and win a whopping $250,000. Good luck providing care for a child with that drop in the bucket. Even if the tort reform excluded the cost of care from the cap, this child could have been a healthy productive member of society, but gross negligence on the part of the system ruined this persons life. And the punitive damage is limited to $250K. That is such a tiny amount that the hospital wouldn't even notice it on their books.


Oh.  You discovered a book that supports your point of view.  How nice.  Lessee here for a moment...written by Tom Baker.  Well, I'm sure he's spent many years in the industry seeing patients and knowing that the threat of such lawsuits drives defensive medicine, right?

Oh wait...no...professor of law and a scholar of insurance law at the University of Pennsylvania Law School.  So...he's a lawyer then?  Nice.

Listen, even if his .5% (which is pretty much disputed by even the ABA, BTW as being kinda low) is acceptable...it doesn't address the atmosphere of defensive medicine that it creates.

But you go ahead and read that whole book (like I'm sure you certainly did, right?) and let us know how it ends.
 
2013-03-12 02:36:11 PM  
I really don't think I care, and if you're a member of the unemployed - the group of people that the Republicans claim to care about - then you don't care either because you can't pay taxes on income you don't have.
 
2013-03-12 02:37:39 PM  

craig328: Your doc made exactly zero extra billing there for himself.


Not quite so fast there.

Actually increasingly as we've moved beyond the failed HMO model and more into a fee for service model many physicians are getting into shared ownership partnerships with testing facilities. So those referrals in a round about way make them extra money.

Also, in hospitals many doctors are not part of the actual hospital staff and instead are fee for service based physicians and the hospital takes a portion of the cut so to speak. In a way very similar to how a tattoo shop works, you pay the artist but the shop takes a small cut off the top for access to the shop. In those instances, in order to keep access to that income stream physicians will order everything under the sun to avoid black marks which might lose them that income stream.So in a self service way, its done for money.

But lets not let facts get in the way of your bumbling in this thread.
 
2013-03-12 02:40:12 PM  
The only thing worse than Obongocare is no plan at all. Too bad we didn't see it sooner.

//lude
 
2013-03-12 02:40:36 PM  

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!


You already do pay for someone else's healthcare with EMTALA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_ La bor_Act

Wouldn't it be better to stop hiding the cost of covering people who are uninsured in America? If we put that cost on the table rather than pretending like it doesn't exist. Also, preventative care is cheaper than emergency room care. I've had a bill from an hour in trauma and it was absurd. The insurance company picked it up, but still. Crazy. And to think that people go to the Emergency Room because their strep throat is getting so bad they can't swallow water. Imagine if they could have had a cheap swab/culture/here's your penicillin visit. No, that would require universal care where we are honest about the cost of healthcare and address it openly.
 
2013-03-12 02:43:40 PM  

TheHumanCannonball: ....They louder they yell, the more I ignore them.


You shouldn't because sometimes, much to your and my own chagrin, they are yelling because it's a message people need to hear.

People applauding being virtually forced to give money to the very companies that have destroyed our healthcare system is insanity to me.  Regardless of how much you think Obama is a super rad guy.
 
2013-03-12 02:45:17 PM  
The Heritage Foundation Healthcare Plan, heavily modified by the same party that originated it,
clogged my toilet and then broke the gods damned toilet tank lid.

F*ckers.
 
2013-03-12 02:45:47 PM  

Great Janitor: I can't answer why your salesman doesn't answer or return your calls. I may not answer my phone all the time, but I do return all calls. Doing so is in my best interest.


Regence BC answers every time I call. My agent is not regence - he's just a rep of the broker I am required to pay a commission to in order to buy that regence policy for my group.

First, I just pointed to another insurance company to explain that they pay more than 65% of their money in claims.  Secondly, what really is wrong with AFLAC.  I was injured in a car wreck where I was rear ended by a woman who was texting while driving.  I broke seven ribs and two shoulders.  In under a week AFLAC sent me a $5,000 check.  Since I was on disability leave and not making my full income, that $5,000 check was well needed to help make ends meet until I could go back to work three months after the car wreck.  Third, no, I don't sell AFLAC, but I do have positive experience from them.

AFLAC is not health insurance, it's a farking ponzi scheme. Good for you collecting on a short term disability claim. As an agent you should know that you can get a far better short term disability plan for much lower premiums than you pay aflac. You should thank your lucky stars you don't sell it. They rip their agents off worse than their subscribers.
 
2013-03-12 02:49:45 PM  

FloydA: Obamacare squeezed the toothpaste tube from the middle, and then left the cap off so it got all crusty and gross.


We should just take Weird Al's song "Virus Alert" and replace every instance of the word "virus" with "Obamacare," then play it at the next Tea Party rally.
 
2013-03-12 02:51:41 PM  

craig328: Oh.  You discovered a book that supports your point of view.  How nice.  Lessee here for a moment...written by Tom Baker.  Well, I'm sure he's spent many years in the industry seeing patients and knowing that the threat of such lawsuits drives defensive medicine, right?

Oh wait...no...professor of law and a scholar of insurance law at the University of Pennsylvania Law School.  So...he's a lawyer then?  Nice.

Listen, even if his .5% (which is pretty much disputed by even the ABA, BTW as being kinda low) is acceptable...it doesn't address the atmosphere of defensive medicine that it creates.

But you go ahead and read that whole book (like I'm sure you certainly did, right?) and let us know how it ends.


No, only you read books. I just troll on the internet, right? Maybe I could have just linked to the HuffPo as my source. That's sure to win you over. What's wrong with an attorney writing an article? Tom Baker is familiar with how many cases are already thrown out by judges for their frivolity and how many cases lawyers already disregard altogether because they aren't worthwhile.

What is an "Atmosphere of defensive medicine" exactly? I would rather have doctors and hospitals that were concerned about the financial penalties for gross negligence than one that can just accept the tiny cap that legislators put on punitive claims.
 
2013-03-12 02:52:29 PM  

DaWormyPimpsta: spentmiles: I hope they calculated in the cost of treating millions of cases of malnutrition after everyone is reduced to eating cat food and drinking rain water.

I can only afford cat food made from real cats.  "Fancy Feast" indeed...


thefilmexperience.net
Approves.
 
2013-03-12 02:53:53 PM  

Great Janitor: I am licensed to sell health insurance so I am getting a kick...

I stopped selling health insurance and I am focusing on life insurance right now.  With Congress not knowing what is in the bill they passed, we don't know what insurance plans that are legal to sell today will remain legal in October when this goes into effect.  And it is going to really hurt coworkers of mine who have been in the business for ten to twenty years or more, have over two decades of built up residuals coming in each month that congress will put an end to when Obamacare comes into effect.

One explanation about Obamacare that I read is that it is not just have some insurance and you won't be fined, but rather that Obamacare level insurance could run as high as $800/month for the average family.  But, with no pre-existing conditions, coverage beginning the moment you buy your policy, why should a healthy person buy insurance when taking the tax fine is cheaper?  Think of it this way: I am healthy.  I see a doctor less than once a year.  Mandatory health insurance is a waste of money for me, just pay the annual fine.  Now, let's say I broke my leg falling down the stairs.   All I have to do is buy insurance, which would take effect instantly, get fixed up, and as soon as the leg was healed, cancel the insurance.  And with no one being rejected for insurance, they can't legally stop me from buying insurance knowing that I was only going to cancel it the moment the cast came off.


Won't somebody think of the insurance salesmen?!?!
 
2013-03-12 02:57:09 PM  

Witty_Retort: Remember who the WSJ thinks is middle class:


Except, of course, that they didn't say those folks were middle class. They just gave examples of how certain people are impacted by tax structure.
 
2013-03-12 03:00:24 PM  

tylerdurden217: No, only you read books. I just troll on the internet, right? Maybe I could have just linked to the HuffPo as my source. That's sure to win you over. What's wrong with an attorney writing an article? Tom Baker is familiar with how many cases are already thrown out by judges for their frivolity and how many cases lawyers already disregard altogether because they aren't worthwhile.

What is an "Atmosphere of defensive medicine" exactly? I would rather have doctors and hospitals that were concerned about the financial penalties for gross negligence than one that can just accept the tiny cap that legislators put on punitive claims.


I didn't claim to read any books.  I did find as agnostic a citation for the lack of tort reform in the law and paraphrased what they said wasn't in the law (tort reform, in case you're losing track here) and how the threat of lawsuits.  You cited a book you've almost certainly never set eyes on much less read.

As for claiming ignorance of defensive medicine...hell even the president acknowledges its existence for crissake (that'll go to a link that will require...well...reading).  If you're truly as ignorant as you're trying to sound then why are you even debating the subject in the first place?

And, just so we're clear capping punitive awards is not the entirety of tort reform...so if you were considering posing ignorance on that one in your next post, please...don't.
 
2013-03-12 03:00:32 PM  
Great Janitor:  Secondly, what really is wrong with AFLAC.  I was injured in a car wreck where I was rear ended by a woman who was texting while driving.  I broke seven ribs and two shoulders.  In under a week AFLAC sent me a $5,000 check.  Since I was on disability leave and not making my full income, that $5,000 check was well needed to help make ends meet until I could go back to work three months after the car wreck.  Third, no, I don't sell AFLAC, but I do have positive experience from them.

I don't know much about it aside from it basically being "I can't save even the smallest amount of money" insurance.

The hate comes from the droves of selling zombies pounding at the doors of any business (their sales people are 100% commission and pretty much anyone with a few hundred bucks can buy a "job").  The massive amount of shills on the internet doesn't help either.
 
2013-03-12 03:06:22 PM  

mongbiohazard: This is the kind of false equivalence that pisses me off about the liberal mainstream media.

They break it down and Johnson just completely lied about the entire point he was making. He specifically was saying that middle income Americans were getting a $1 trillion tax hike under Obamacare. Now they said that the $1 trillion figure didn't come from thin air.... but that it wasn't the new taxes on the middle class and that ALSO on the balance middle income Americans were going to have more in credits then new taxes so they won't have a tax hike at all... they'll have a tax CREDIT. The opposite of what Johnson was claiming.

Now Schultz on the other hand said that Johnson's claim wasn't true... but because in the middle of her rebuttal she didn't insert the words "middle class" when responding to his false claim they rate her statement as JUST AS untrue as his... even though she was correct that he was full of shiat.


It's a no-win scenario.  On the one hand, yes, it's something of a false equivalence.  But on the other hand, if the author doesn't bend over backwards trying to be "fair" to the Republicans (i.e., try to find some convoluted way in which what Johnson  said could be construed as at least partly true), then Fox and Rush and and the other Conservative pundits will use that as "proof" that The Fact Checker and The Washington Post are just Liberal running dogs.

If you want the kind of people who are already deeply suspicious of Obamacare to listen to you at all, you have to work really, really hard at both trying to be "fair" to them (in the Fox News sense of "fair") while simultaneously producing the facts that might lead them to realize that most of what they've been told is utter nonsense.

Like so much else in life, it has to be done gradually and gently.
 
2013-03-12 03:08:23 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!

Because you get the benefit of living in the USA, and therefore have to follow it's rules and regulations. If you want to not follow those laws, either move or risk penalties, but most important, STFU and stop whining.


Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.
 
2013-03-12 03:09:16 PM  

PanicMan: kid_icarus: [i76.photobucket.com image 360x202]

That seriously made my day better.  Thanks.


It's just MORE proof that the humble banana really is the atheist's nightmare.
 
2013-03-12 03:12:41 PM  

festoon: CheekyMonkey: festoon: Best advice when you're trying to wade through all the complex political crap: If a Republican Politician says it, its a lie.

FTFY.

There's a big difference between Democrats and Republicans. A Democrat might steal candy from a baby, and then lie about it.

A Republican would steal candy from a baby, then they'd steal the baby. Then they'd try to convince you the damn socialist Demoncrats stole the baby, while they barbeque it, dice it up an serve it to you on a hoagie roll. And if you happen to recognize the baby on your plate slathered in BBQ sauce, with Republican fingerprints all over it, they'll try to blame it all on Obama.

At this point you can tell who the Tea Bagger is, because he'd be the one who'd dig in and start eating.


Spoken like a True Liberal, wanting to let a perfectly good barbecued baby go to waste.
 
2013-03-12 03:13:15 PM  

craig328: And, just so we're clear capping punitive awards is not the entirety of tort reform...so if you were considering posing ignorance on that one in your next post, please...don't.


You need to get less angry.  Here's the position you started with:

craig328: Medical care is expensive because the act doesn't address tort reform...period.


No one here is arguing that tort reform isn't necessary.  What everyone here is arguing is that it is not the sole driver of excessive cost.  Except for you.  And you're wrong.
 
2013-03-12 03:17:06 PM  

craig328: I didn't claim to read any books.  I did find as agnostic a citation for the lack of tort reform in the law and paraphrased what they said wasn't in the law (tort reform, in case you're losing track here) and how the threat of lawsuits.  You cited a book you've almost certainly never set eyes on much less read.

As for claiming ignorance of defensive medicine...hell even the president acknowledges its existence for crissake (that'll go to a link that will require...well...reading).  If you're truly as ignorant as you're trying to sound then why are you even debating the subject in the first place?

And, just so we're clear capping punitive awards is not the entirety of tort reform...so if you were considering posing ignorance on that one in your next post, please...don't.


For starters, Fark off. You are a prick. I have that book on my Kindle and I did read it, It's a a short evening read and it was cheap. Tom Baker is an authority on the subject of tort reform. I heard any interview with him on NPR a couple years ago. You should check the book out. Anyone who says something as farking ignorant as "You cited a book you've almost certainly never set eyes on much less read" should be ignored. I abhor anyone who makes claims they cannot possibly have any knowledge to support.

Capping the awards is the most significant piece of tort reform legislation. I never claimed that it was the entirety of the tort reform. I gave a real world example of a time when $250K is insufficient and proceeded to present an argument against the caps that come with tort reform.
 
2013-03-12 03:19:48 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Great Janitor: I can't answer why your salesman doesn't answer or return your calls. I may not answer my phone all the time, but I do return all calls. Doing so is in my best interest.

Regence BC answers every time I call. My agent is not regence - he's just a rep of the broker I am required to pay a commission to in order to buy that regence policy for my group.


That's the difference, I'm not a broker.  Now in the past I have worked with brokers.  They had the existing clients, so I could just get the broker to get his clients excited about my products and show the broker how to fill out the forms.  On the commission splits, typically I would give the broker more since I was using his business, but I still made more money in the long run because I could sell to all of his clients.  But the downside is that the broker didn't know any of the details of the policies and if the insurance deal died five months after because the broker didn't want to forward calls to me or the clients didn't want to call me directly, just deal with the broker, the broker didn't care because he still got his cut.

First, I just pointed to another insurance company to explain that they pay more than 65% of their money in claims.  Secondly, what really is wrong with AFLAC.  I was injured in a car wreck where I was rear ended by a woman who was texting while driving.  I broke seven ribs and two shoulders.  In under a week AFLAC sent me a $5,000 check.  Since I was on disability leave and not making my full income, that $5,000 check was well needed to help make ends meet until I could go back to work three months after the car wreck.  Third, no, I don't sell AFLAC, but I do have positive experience from them.

AFLAC is not health insurance, it's a farking ponzi scheme. Good for you collecting on a short term disability claim. As an agent you should know that you can get a far better short term disability plan for much lower premiums than you pay aflac. You should thank your lucky stars you don't sell it. They rip their agents off worse than their subscribers.


AFLAC says upfront that they are not health insurance, just supplemental insurance.  I have known several AFLAC agents.  Some make $5,000/day and only work one day a week.  Others work 12 hours a day, five days a week and a part time job.  It's not an easy company because they simply don't have lead generation.  I work with two former AFLAC agents who told me that they got out of the company because in my area the market is saturated, too much competition and the companies are just constantly hit by AFLAC agent after AFLAC agent that it's not a business worth getting into.

The absolute worst insurance company to get into is the one I started in, Primerica.  Their stance of 'Whole life is evil' and 'Buy term, invest the difference' is great on paper, but doesn't work in reality.  I can do more good selling an over funded UL policy than buying term and investing the different.  I left that company because I hated what I was doing.  I felt like I was lying to get people to come in for interviews.  I felt like I was lying during the interviews and I knew I was lying when setting up sales appointments (case in point, when setting them up, we told the perspective client that it was a training appointment for their friend/family member who we just hired, but the term around the office was KT, short for Kitchen Table sales appointment).  Every day I found myself spending money out of my pocket for the company one way or another.  Yeah, I didn't mind chipping in for interview sheets since I had more coming in than anyone else.  But if there was an event happening in Colorado, for example, I had to not just buy my ticket there, but be expected to buy a ticket for my wife (who never went), and buy tickets for my entire time and expect them to buy them from me, minimum of five tickets at a time, $20/ticket.  Plus pay for my way to and from the event, over night stay for each night and food.  All while insulting people who had their doubts about the company (recruiting tactic, insult them for having a job so that they'd join), being told that spending time with my non-Primerica friends and family members was stupid because they didn't respect what I did so why should I hang out with them and put up with their insulting what I do (which didn't happen, but couldn't tell Boss Lady that, so I never told her what I did when I wasn't there because I knew she'd belittle it).  I am one of the few people who Primerica fired.  What happened was when I started at the company that I'm at now, they got offended and told me to leave or be fired.  I said "You want me to leave a company where I'm getting free leads from people who actually want to be sold insurance and join a company where I have to interview 10 people a week just to get maybe one new hire and that new hire will lead me to five people who I will have to lie to in order to get maybe one sale that will probably get dropped in under a year leading to a charge back?"  So they fired me.  I was tempted to frame the firing letter.

Friends don't let friends join Primerica.
 
2013-03-12 03:20:45 PM  

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?


Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.
 
2013-03-12 03:30:53 PM  

Great Janitor: I am healthy.  I see a doctor less than once a year.  Mandatory health insurance is a waste of money for me, just pay the annual fine.  Now, let's say I broke my leg falling down the stairs.   All I have to do is buy insurance, which would take effect instantly, get fixed up, and as soon as the leg was healed, cancel the insurance.  And with no one being rejected for insurance, they can't legally stop me from buying insurance knowing that I was only going to cancel it the moment the cast came off.


Which is why the system requires you to have health insurance "even if you don't need it" so you can't pull a stunt like that.
 
2013-03-12 03:36:33 PM  

ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.


No offense, but you stating something as a fact doesn't make it a fact.  Societies, by definition, do not need to have the 'strong' helping the 'weak'.  They may or may not.  That's like me saying 'Societies all have sports teams'.  Some do, some don't, but my statement is incorrect.

You might think all societies *should* have the strong help the weak, but that's an opinion.  I might even agree.  But the alternative to that is *not* living alone in a cave.  That's a false dilemma.
 
2013-03-12 03:37:26 PM  
libertesinternets.files.wordpress.com

Come on, people.

We cannot wait for the proof... the Smoking Gun... to come in the form of a mushroom cloud.
 
2013-03-12 03:38:40 PM  

Great Janitor: Friends don't let friends join Primerica.


That sounds hellish. As for Aflac, I wish I had a nickel for every cold call I've fielded from their sales people.
 
2013-03-12 03:43:49 PM  

kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?


Look - A married guy with kids who thinks he'll be happy as a clam to pay his own way when his wife or one of his kids gets a terminal illness that exceeds his insurance policy limits and personal savings.

/happens. every. day.
 
2013-03-12 03:44:25 PM  

KIA: There is no miracle of the fishes and the loaves here people. Huge, expensive promises were made for prescription drug care and then expanded for general health care. Someone has to pay for that now and you, dear middle class, with your victimization and white guilt mentality hoped that any change would be good. You're wrong. Pay up.


Fine.  After the moneyed class pays their fair share... OF ANYTHING! AND Insurance hand hospital FOR PROFIT corporations have so badly screwed up health care in this country that it TAKES a strong handed approach just to keep the costs from continuing to go crazy and break us all.

Republicans and Teabaggers want to say that the middle class is getting screwed.  I say that they have the tense wrong.  We GOT screwed by REGANISM and the inevitable cram downs that came with it.  So now we ALL have to pay the taxes we should have paid in the past but instead used to buy metaphorical hookers and blow.

So yes, as a responsible citizen, this is the change I had hoped for.  NOW maybe we can stop with the voodoo economics and get back to growing this country from the middle out.
 
2013-03-12 03:46:46 PM  

Unoriginal_Username: No...er..yes....hmm..wait...I know I can work this out...

Lets see...Potato * Herp / Derp...carry the 5...ok...I get 42.

/was never good at math


You are a liberal. Of course you aren't good at math. See the new senate democrat budget.
 
2013-03-12 03:47:11 PM  

Queensowntalia: Obamacare drank the last of the milk and didn't replace it. It's so inconsiderate.


Obamacare finished off the box of Honey Nut Cheerios and didn't holla on it.
 
2013-03-12 03:49:58 PM  

ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.


And if I do, I will pay for it. I don't expect society to pick up my slack.
 
2013-03-12 04:03:00 PM  

k1j2b3: Is it worth it to ensure that everyone in the US has access to some level of health care?  Oh yeah.

Everyone HAD access to medical care before Obamacare came along. Hospitals cannot turn patients away for lack of insurance or $$. In fact, states pay out millions every year to cover these people and hospitals lose money every year on these people.


The EXACT reason for HCR. Through efforts to secure a primary care provider, society hopes to reduce the expense associated with non-emergency emergency care. Cut my thumb to the bone. Still waited in line behind people who had a cold and needed a prescription.

Shift the non-emergency care folks out of $1500/visit emergency care into $1500/year subsidized health care providers and you have a net savings. AND, people really in need of emergency care aren't waiting behind people with a cold.
 
2013-03-12 04:05:48 PM  
If there are people who still think Team Obama is pulling for the middle class then they have crossed in to the realm of full retard
 
2013-03-12 04:07:15 PM  

kendelrio: ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.

And if I do, I will pay for it. I don't expect society to pick up my slack.


Dude. :(

You'll go bankrupt from medical costs in roughly 2.5 seconds if you get hit by a car, for example.

Getting accidentally hit by a car or in a car accident or LOLwhoops fell off chair while putting light bulb in ceiling fixture that results in moderate-to-FATAL injuries happens every day.

It's not a thing you can put on a schedule and plan for.
 
2013-03-12 04:07:57 PM  
IamAwake:

Someone at $200k/y is not really that much better off, truly, than someone making $50k/y.

Yes they are.

Comparing apples to apples in the same SES area, someone making 4x more than then person sitting next to them is WAY better off. They very likely have a retirement plan, maybe investing in their kids education, they have better goods which saves money in the long run..... as that $200 pair of Cole Haan shoes is going to last longer than the $50 pair the lesser earner bought at Walmart.
 
2013-03-12 04:13:20 PM  
IamAwake:

Someone at $200k/y is not really that much better off, truly, than someone making $50k/y.


I also think the 250k mark is not the right place to make a marked increase in taxes.
But even at the 1MIL mark, Redubs did not want to budge on taxes.

But really. $250k and 1MIL are not that far apart. Why increase taxes at a 1MIL? Sure, you might have a bass boat and they have a custom Chris Craft... but they are both just boats. Right?

BTW: I don't consider someone making 4x my income the enemy.
I just think they are delusional if they believe we are living the same life.
 
2013-03-12 04:15:39 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Great Janitor: Friends don't let friends join Primerica.

That sounds hellish. As for Aflac, I wish I had a nickel for every cold call I've fielded from their sales people.


AFLAC has a good product.  I was a happy client of them once I was in that wreck.  I've even looked at many of their products and it's not bad, their cancer policy is great and recognizes that if a child has cancer no one is going to work so they'll pay the family money.  Their cancer policy even has a clause that pays bone marrow donors money once they become a donor.  The downside to AFLAC, however, is that they have to hit companies in a door to door salesman type environment and there is no communal site for their agents to go to and say "This company has been hit 19 times in the past six months but won't do a do not contact list".

Some of what I sale competes with AFLAC, with the bonus of not being a payroll deduction and allowing more control of the policy.  The biggest downside to insurance from work is that the company owns the policy and you, the employee, while paying on the policy (or part of it) have zero control over the policy.  If you can afford to get your own coverage, do so, that way you can control it.  Never get your life insurance through work.
 
2013-03-12 04:18:31 PM  
 

kendelrio: ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.

And if I do, I will pay for it. I don't expect society to pick up my slack.


Hot air. You too will become old and infirm one day. And if (heaven forbid) one of your kids gets bone marrow cancer you'll queue up in the handout line like anyone else would and your fair weather insistence that you pay your own way will be conveniently forgotten.
 
2013-03-12 04:22:19 PM  

ciberido: mongbiohazard: This is the kind of false equivalence that pisses me off about the liberal mainstream media.

They break it down and Johnson just completely lied about the entire point he was making. He specifically was saying that middle income Americans were getting a $1 trillion tax hike under Obamacare. Now they said that the $1 trillion figure didn't come from thin air.... but that it wasn't the new taxes on the middle class and that ALSO on the balance middle income Americans were going to have more in credits then new taxes so they won't have a tax hike at all... they'll have a tax CREDIT. The opposite of what Johnson was claiming.

Now Schultz on the other hand said that Johnson's claim wasn't true... but because in the middle of her rebuttal she didn't insert the words "middle class" when responding to his false claim they rate her statement as JUST AS untrue as his... even though she was correct that he was full of shiat.

It's a no-win scenario.  On the one hand, yes, it's something of a false equivalence.  But on the other hand, if the author doesn't bend over backwards trying to be "fair" to the Republicans (i.e., try to find some convoluted way in which what Johnson  said could be construed as at least partly true), then Fox and Rush and and the other Conservative pundits will use that as "proof" that The Fact Checker and The Washington Post are just Liberal running dogs.

If you want the kind of people who are already deeply suspicious of Obamacare to listen to you at all, you have to work really, really hard at both trying to be "fair" to them (in the Fox News sense of "fair") while simultaneously producing the facts that might lead them to realize that most of what they've been told is utter nonsense.

Like so much else in life, it has to be done gradually and gently.


I know what you're saying, but I think there are two flaws with that.
1. Rush, Beck and the other conservative "pundits" are going to smear you as liberal no matter HOW you report it unless you report it exactly as they want you to.
2. The people who you're trying to "gradually and gently" ease in to the truth you're doing no such thing by distorting the truth like that with false equivalence. It only serves to provide them more fodder to use to support the pre-judged opinion they come to the table with. "See! Even the WaPo said Schultz was lying!" Those are the folks that Rush and the right-wing echo chamber rely on... they're called the "unpersuadeables". And anyone else who IS persuadable you don't need to do that for.

It's a losing strategy which gains nothing.
 
2013-03-12 04:23:12 PM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Also, in hospitals many doctors are not part of the actual hospital staff and instead are fee for service based physicians and the hospital takes a portion of the cut so to speak...<snip>... In those instances, in order to keep access to that income stream physicians will order everything under the sun to avoid black marks which might lose them that income stream.

But lets not let facts get in the way of your bumbling in this thread.



In the fantasy you describe, you're claiming that an imaginary doctor will be dismissed as a service provider from a hospital that determines he is not ordering enough questionable tests from which they take their percentage.

Certainly you can cite facts to distinguish this claim from a scenario you have pictured in your mind, especially given the manner in which you dismissed the target of your fictional claim.
 
2013-03-12 04:26:36 PM  

Great Janitor: AFLAC has a good product. I was a happy client of them once I was in that wreck. I've even looked at many of their products and it's not bad, their cancer policy is great and recognizes that if a child has cancer no one is going to work so they'll pay the family money. Their cancer policy even has a clause that pays bone marrow donors money once they become a donor. The downside to AFLAC, however, is that they have to hit companies in a door to door salesman type environment and there is no communal site for their agents to go to and say "This company has been hit 19 times in the past six months but won't do a do not contact list".

Some of what I sale competes with AFLAC, with the bonus of not being a payroll deduction and allowing more control of the policy. The biggest downside to insurance from work is that the company owns the policy and you, the employee, while paying on the policy (or part of it) have zero control over the policy. If you can afford to get your own coverage, do so, that way you can control it. Never get your life insurance through work.


They have A product, I would not say it's a good one for most americans. Being happy that it paid out when you had it is no different that being happy you bought a lotto ticket that was a winner. fact is most supplemental or cafeteria plan policies are a poor use of resources for the vast majority of americans. The guy who gets a claim paid is happy of course. All the other people who pumped money into it when they should have been avoiding car loans and high interest credit cards and not saving for retirement would be much better served on the whole by not having some oddball 'cancer policy' that sends you a check when you get cancer.
 
2013-03-12 04:32:47 PM  

kendelrio: machodonkeywrestler: kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!

Because you get the benefit of living in the USA, and therefore have to follow it's rules and regulations. If you want to not follow those laws, either move or risk penalties, but most important, STFU and stop whining.

Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.


No, but it sure as hell does in our founding document. So maybe we should be declaring war on all of you who take that viewpoint.
 
2013-03-12 04:35:14 PM  

MattStafford: Obamacare will allow more people access to health care.  The only way to pay for this increase in health care is have other people foot the bill, as those doctor's aren't working for free.  As such, this will necessarily cause some people's bills to rise, either in the form of taxes or premiums.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as our country is wealthy and everyone should have access to health care, but to ignore that reality is disingenuous.

A better solution would be a guaranteed minimum income along with some sort of universal catastrophic coverage plan.  Let the market work for non life threatening procedures, but make sure health care costs don't bankrupt anyone.


The problem with this type of logic is that health issues do not work this way. You can die of a toothache if it's left unattended long enough. Health issues that start out small and manageable work their way up to deadly if not treated.

This is why we should pay more attention to issues while they're small and manageable and not wait until they become catastrophic.
 
2013-03-12 04:41:41 PM  

JohnBigBootay: kendelrio: ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.

And if I do, I will pay for it. I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

Hot air. You too will become old and infirm one day. And if (heaven forbid) one of your kids gets bone marrow cancer you'll queue up in the handout line like anyone else would and your fair weather insistence that you pay your own way will be conveniently forgotten.


That is how the "entitled" justify things, "well everybody else is doing it". That is a big problem with today's entitled society and what got us into this healthcare mess. "Everybody else is cheating the system, I should too." "Everybody else has a cell phone, I should get one too. even though I cant afford it".

/Doesn't make it right
 
2013-03-12 04:46:08 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: kendelrio: machodonkeywrestler: kendelrio: MattStafford: kendelrio: It's bullshiat. I pay for my families healthcare and it takes a huge chunk of my check. So now my check has to be taxed more to pay for someone else's health care? Bullshiat.

If I'm paying for your healthcare, I should get something for it. Come mow my grass.

We're a wealthy country.  We should be able to take care of our own.  Also, instituting a GMI and allowing the free market to work for the majority of health care issues will dramatically drive down prices.

You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Also, at what age is a person a farking adult? Kids mandated to stay on my insurance until they're 26? That's bullshiat too. If a "kid" can go to PMITA prison for life at 18, join the military at 18, get married at 18 drink a beer or other things legally, why should I have to foot their insurance bill? So now I'm paying for MY families insurance, some farker who can't afford their insurance AND their crotchfruits insurance until they're 26? fark that!

Because you get the benefit of living in the USA, and therefore have to follow it's rules and regulations. If you want to not follow those laws, either move or risk penalties, but most important, STFU and stop whining.

Conversely, the rules and regulations have to follow the constitution. I have never seen a guarantee of health care in **any** of the founders documents.

No, but it sure as hell does in our founding document. So maybe we should be declaring war on all of you who take that viewpoint.


Please cite for me the part of the "founding document" that specifies the right to health care.
 
2013-03-12 04:48:15 PM  

The Missing Link: That is how the "entitled" justify things, "well everybody else is doing it". That is a big problem with today's entitled society and what got us into this healthcare mess. "Everybody else is cheating the system, I should too." "Everybody else has a cell phone, I should get one too. even though I cant afford it".

/Doesn't make it right


Insurance is for those costs that no working person could reasonably be expected to afford. A bad car wreck or a single instance of cancer can have claim costs that exceed what most bootstrappers will earn in a lifetime. All the pontificating in the world won't change that. You either have good health insurance or the state bears the cost.
 
2013-03-12 04:51:50 PM  

JohnBigBootay:  kendelrio: ciberido: kendelrio: You didn't answer my question. Why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? There is no benefit to me. Why should I bust my ass to provide for my family only to have more of my wages taken to pay for someone else's benefits?

Because that's how societies work.  The strong help the weak.  If you don't like it, go live alone in a cave.

/Just don't ever get sick, or old, or break anything.

And if I do, I will pay for it. I don't expect society to pick up my slack.

Hot air. You too will become old and infirm one day. And if (heaven forbid) one of your kids gets bone marrow cancer you'll queue up in the handout line like anyone else would and your fair weather insistence that you pay your own way will be conveniently forgotten.


Wrong. Part of that pay that I am busting my ass for goes into a "disaster fund". Granted, it may not cover a million dollars of health care costs, but between it and insurance, I should be ok. As far as old and infirm, I'm saving so I don't rely on social security. If you state "what of your savings are gone?", them there is nothing I can do. I AM, however planning and saving so myself and my family aren't dependent on any type of government handouts.
 
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