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(Politico)   Now that Obamacare is the law of the land, Democrats are having a go at deciding that portions of it are stupid. Grab the popcorn   (politico.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, obamacare, Democrats, law of the land, Maria Cantwell, Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services  
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1899 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Mar 2013 at 7:26 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 07:32:28 AM  
Yea, that's what happens when you water something down to get it to pass Congress rather than just go single payer
 
2013-03-12 07:32:33 AM  
Well, it ain't perfect and it could sure be improved, but like in TFA, it's still a huge milestone.
 
2013-03-12 07:33:03 AM  
This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.
 
2013-03-12 07:36:00 AM  

MacWizard: This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.


if Obama came out demanding its repeal, they'd be falling all over themselves defending it.

Honestly, I could see him doing that for the lulz.
 
2013-03-12 07:37:02 AM  

Klivian: Yea, that's what happens when you water something down to get it to pass Congress rather than just go single payer


This. Hate it that much? Go single payer or public option and say no more.
 
2013-03-12 07:37:06 AM  

MacWizard: This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.


The Democrats should introduce a bill stating that a Public Option will never be allowed in the insurance exchanges.
 
2013-03-12 07:39:54 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: MacWizard: This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.

The Democrats should introduce a bill stating that a Public Option will never be allowed in the insurance exchanges.


What? Why would they do that... oh I see where you're going.

/time for coffee, apparently
 
2013-03-12 07:42:29 AM  

ox45tallboy: MacWizard: This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.

if Obama came out demanding its repeal, they'd be falling all over themselves defending it.

Honestly, I could see him doing that for the lulz.



Are you kidding? In 2016, they'll be trying to take credit for it.
 
2013-03-12 07:46:35 AM  
without reading, let me guess...

They dont like the parts of it that pay for it, while they like the parts that spend money?
 
2013-03-12 07:47:21 AM  
We had thousands of pages of government run granny-killin' to shove down the country's throat. It was bound to get a little messy.
 
2013-03-12 07:50:51 AM  
Looks like the lobbyists have shown up.
 
2013-03-12 07:54:03 AM  
Yes, the Democrats that are against it say that it doesn't do enough while the Republicans who are against it say it does too much.  I would point out the false equivalency, but I hope I don't need to...
 
2013-03-12 07:58:47 AM  
Well, that's what you get for something half-assed. No one is really going to like it.
 
2013-03-12 08:00:57 AM  
The stupid portions? You mean the bit where it's a give-away to the insurance companies rather than giving Americans universal health care?
 
2013-03-12 08:01:04 AM  

I sound fat: without reading, let me guess...

They dont like the parts of it that pay for it, while they like the parts that spend money?


The GOP staked out that position years ago.
 
2013-03-12 08:04:50 AM  

thurstonxhowell: I sound fat: without reading, let me guess...

They dont like the parts of it that pay for it, while they like the parts that spend money?

The GOP staked out that position years ago.



What position? Not reading?
 
2013-03-12 08:06:23 AM  

stoli n coke: thurstonxhowell: I sound fat: without reading, let me guess...

They dont like the parts of it that pay for it, while they like the parts that spend money?

The GOP staked out that position years ago.


What position? Not reading?


Well, technically, it's called "home schooling," but yeah, that position.
 
2013-03-12 08:10:29 AM  
Democrats find plenty of it stupid, because it was assraped and mangled by republican obstructionism, so what we got was a watered down piece of shiat, instead of any kind of actual reform at all.

farking insurance industry, no farking better than pay day loan scam stores. Parasites that are worthy only of death.
 
2013-03-12 08:12:47 AM  
Hmmm, so it turns out we did have to pass it in order to understand what's in it.
 
2013-03-12 08:14:56 AM  
Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.) has threatened to vote against Obama's nominee to lead the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services unless the administration allows states to run a Basic Health Plan, an optional program that allows states to use federal subsidies to insure people just above the federal poverty level. But the administration has put that option off for at least a year.

"It seems as if the agency is taking, I don't know, how many pages out of 900 [pages of the health law] and saying, that's the health plan," she said. "As far as I'm concerned, I think the president signed all 900 pages."

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) then demanded that Cohen explain why the Obama administration "negotiated away" money for another small piece of the law, one to set up insurance co-ops to compete with commercial insurers in the state-based health insurance exchanges. He warned that the administration is risking the entire law's success.

Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) went to the Senate floor recently to criticize an HHS regulation, stemming from the health law, that he said doesn't do enough to ensure that children have access to dental care.


Hey guys, guys, you know what would help you cover all those people and more?

Single payer.
 
2013-03-12 08:22:52 AM  

stoli n coke: ox45tallboy: MacWizard: This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.

if Obama came out demanding its repeal, they'd be falling all over themselves defending it.

Honestly, I could see him doing that for the lulz.


Are you kidding? In 2016, they'll be trying to take credit for it.


BoehnerCare?

/ Why is everyone giggling?
 
2013-03-12 08:26:41 AM  
Yes, subby, some adults are capable of altering their views based on new information.
 
2013-03-12 08:34:37 AM  

ox45tallboy: MacWizard: This will be fun. Everything the Dems decide is stupid will instantly become the only provisions that are important to the Republicans.

if Obama came out demanding its repeal, they'd be falling all over themselves defending it.

Honestly, I could see him doing that for the lulz.


I just want Michelle to come out against eating large amounts of arsenic, just to see if they will take the bait on opposing anything she comes out in favor of.
 
2013-03-12 08:35:16 AM  
Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.
 
2013-03-12 08:39:59 AM  

Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.


As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.
 
2013-03-12 08:47:24 AM  
Not much of a mystery.  Government farks up everything it touches.
Politicians supported this because their party leadershipsaid to support it. Now that blind faith has been rewarded, they are stuck with the results.

Time to point fingers.
 
2013-03-12 08:48:10 AM  

cchris_39: Looks like the lobbyists have shown up.


wut?  they wrote it
 
2013-03-12 08:52:12 AM  
Subby, welcome to the legislative process.  This is them doing their job.  Stop complaining, or they'll stop.
 
2013-03-12 08:52:54 AM  

verbaltoxin: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.

As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.


Did you come in here looking for an echo chamber?

The bill was a dog's breakfast at its introduction and the legislative process made it more so. Are you surprised that legislators want to re-visit the whole mess and carve out more goodies?
 
2013-03-12 08:53:05 AM  
Is it just me or are Democrats generally more wonky in their criticism of domestic policy? Like, what Republican plans have they ever tried to blatantly repeal? Even things like Medicare Part D that are go-to examples of waste they say should be reformed and not replaced. Republicans really should learn to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good: the tendency to call for repeal of any policy they disagree with the efficacy of as well as defend programs they support as ideal rather than be open to reforms is more partisan than political.
 
2013-03-12 08:54:47 AM  
People really need to stop confusing insurance with health care. Insurance strives to not deliver care.
 
2013-03-12 08:54:54 AM  

Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.


Everyone knows healthcare should be entirely profit driven. Giving power to corporations never leads to corruption.
 
2013-03-12 08:56:18 AM  

PanicMan: Subby, welcome to the legislative process. This is them doing their job. Stop complaining, or they'll stop.


It would be GREAT if they stopped, at least for a breather. The system is infected with chronic just-DO-something syndrome, with scant reflection on whether something should be done at all and whether it has to be the federal government that does it.
 
2013-03-12 09:00:58 AM  

Gulper Eel: PanicMan: Subby, welcome to the legislative process. This is them doing their job. Stop complaining, or they'll stop.

It would be GREAT if they stopped, at least for a breather. The system is infected with chronic just-DO-something syndrome, with scant reflection on whether something should be done at all and whether it has to be the federal government that does it.


Yeah what's government's problem? Why is it always trying to govern? Why can't it stop that for a while?

Of course if it did, you'd be right here complaining about a "do-nothing government."
 
2013-03-12 09:01:29 AM  
It is like the beginning of a Kurt Vonnegut book where he describes a fisherman that caught a whale so big that he couldn't fit it on the boat.  Instead of butchering it at sea and taking only the important parts the sailor decided to try and tow the whole thing into shore.  When he got there he realized that the sharks had picked the entire thing bone dry.   It's like that but with greedy corporations and peoples lives instead.
 
2013-03-12 09:03:28 AM  

Citrate1007: It is like the beginning of a Kurt Vonnegut book where he describes a fisherman that caught a whale so big that he couldn't fit it on the boat.  Instead of butchering it at sea and taking only the important parts the sailor decided to try and tow the whole thing into shore.  When he got there he realized that the sharks had picked the entire thing bone dry.   It's like that but with greedy corporations and peoples lives instead.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-12 09:04:12 AM  
jgbrowning
People really need to stop confusing insurance with health care. Insurance strives to not deliver care.

No, for-profit insurance does that. Single-payer insurance run by the government really only ever has to break even - they can pay out as much in claims as the premiums they take in without mind to paying dividends or executive bonuses or showing year-over-year profit growth.
 
2013-03-12 09:08:38 AM  

Gulper Eel: PanicMan: Subby, welcome to the legislative process. This is them doing their job. Stop complaining, or they'll stop.

It would be GREAT if they stopped, at least for a breather. The system is infected with chronic just-DO-something syndrome, with scant reflection on whether something should be done at all and whether it has to be the federal government that does it.


I don't get it. There is no Federal program that hits age 3-4 that doesn't get tinkered with at least once - you have to address unintended consequences, readjust funding levels (or reauthorize them) based on how the initial projections stack against reality, maybe tighten some language here and add some more protection there, make the sentences harsher or the fines smaller.

Or would you rather they not address these problems and let the law stand as-is? I'm absolutely sure if you looked through the OMG 2,300-and-potato pages you could find something objectionable, yes?
 
2013-03-12 09:11:25 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Citrate1007: It is like the beginning of a Kurt Vonnegut book where he describes a fisherman that caught a whale so big that he couldn't fit it on the boat.  Instead of butchering it at sea and taking only the important parts the sailor decided to try and tow the whole thing into shore.  When he got there he realized that the sharks had picked the entire thing bone dry.   It's like that but with greedy corporations and peoples lives instead.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x292]


Yes I know, but I prefer Vonnegut's summary in Timequake.  Much more crass language involved.
 
2013-03-12 09:11:31 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Everyone knows healthcare should be entirely profit driven. Giving power to corporations never leads to corruption.


That also leads to corruption, obviously. But if you're going to put your health in somebody else's hands, it's a pick-your-poison situation. And it is far from clear that the solution lies in Washington. There are aspects of our health we should be handling more of ourselves. I'm thinking primarily of nutrition here, along with anything else we do to our bodies - and yet we have a federal government that actively impedes our ability to do right by ourselves. Think agriculture subsidies, for starters. We subsidize crap, for the most part. We subsidize crap through the food-stamp system, too. Recipients understandably spend their limited resources on the cheapest calories - again, the crap. And then we're surprised at high obesity and diabetes rates for the poor.

At least when the private sector trainwrecks something, I can invest in them and make a buck off it. When the public sector trainwrecks something, everybody's poorer - except those who had the massive resources needed to buy a piece of public-sector power.

Add complexity to the system (and this health-care law is nothing if not complex) and it benefits those with the resources to work the complexity to their advantage - again, that's those who already have the most.

If the federal government has a role here at all, it's to protect us from out-of-the-blue catastrophic health issues (e.g. Lou Gehrig's disease) and to encourage preventive self-care. Instead, they encourage the opposite - everything from obesity to unnecessary testing.

Why would I think that with the Obama plan, that this time they really got it right, honest they did?
 
2013-03-12 09:13:10 AM  

Citrate1007: It is like the beginning of a Kurt Vonnegut book where he describes a fisherman that caught a whale so big that he couldn't fit it on the boat.  Instead of butchering it at sea and taking only the important parts the sailor decided to try and tow the whole thing into shore.  When he got there he realized that the sharks had picked the entire thing bone dry.   It's like that but with greedy corporations and peoples lives instead.


Yep.
 
2013-03-12 09:15:05 AM  

verbaltoxin: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.

As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.


I think that the mistake was made by YOU when you expected anything more than a stream of feces dribbling from his mouth...
 
2013-03-12 09:15:33 AM  

Dr Dreidel: I don't get it. There is no Federal program that hits age 3-4 that doesn't get tinkered with at least once - you have to address unintended consequences, readjust funding levels (or reauthorize them) based on how the initial projections stack against reality, maybe tighten some language here and add some more protection there, make the sentences harsher or the fines smaller.

Or would you rather they not address these problems and let the law stand as-is? I'm absolutely sure if you looked through the OMG 2,300-and-potato pages you could find something objectionable, yes?


What you get over the years may be spots of improvement in the original program, but you also get mission creep and metastasizing spending, plus constitutencies that build up around parts of the program that may be clearly failing but provide a lot of political benefit.

There is no way to assume that tinkering will make something better, especially if it's in the tinkerers' interests to do otherwise.
 
2013-03-12 09:17:49 AM  

Tarl3k: verbaltoxin: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.

As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.

I think that the mistake was made by YOU when you expected anything more than a stream of feces dribbling from his mouth...


Oh no, I'm well acquainted. I'm just letting him know up front that nobody gives a sh*t. With many farkers I'm through with the pretense of listening to their opinions. And by many I mean about 90% of Fark.
 
2013-03-12 09:19:56 AM  

verbaltoxin: Tarl3k: verbaltoxin: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.

As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.

I think that the mistake was made by YOU when you expected anything more than a stream of feces dribbling from his mouth...

Oh no, I'm well acquainted. I'm just letting him know up front that nobody gives a sh*t. With many farkers I'm through with the pretense of listening to their opinions. And by many I mean about 90% of Fark.


I'll put you down for 'echo chamber' then.
 
2013-03-12 09:20:29 AM  

Gulper Eel: What you get over the years may be spots of improvement in the original program, but you also get mission creep and metastasizing spending, plus constitutencies that build up around parts of the program that may be clearly failing but provide a lot of political benefit.

There is no way to assume that tinkering will make something better, especially if it's in the tinkerers' interests to do otherwise.


See the defense industry for examples
 
2013-03-12 09:21:01 AM  

Gulper Eel: verbaltoxin: Tarl3k: verbaltoxin: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.

As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.

I think that the mistake was made by YOU when you expected anything more than a stream of feces dribbling from his mouth...

Oh no, I'm well acquainted. I'm just letting him know up front that nobody gives a sh*t. With many farkers I'm through with the pretense of listening to their opinions. And by many I mean about 90% of Fark.

I'll put you down for 'echo chamber' then.


I don't give a flying f*ck what you do. There. Is it clear enough for you?
 
2013-03-12 09:21:14 AM  

Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Everyone knows healthcare should be entirely profit driven. Giving power to corporations never leads to corruption.

That also leads to corruption, obviously. But if you're going to put your health in somebody else's hands, it's a pick-your-poison situation. And it is far from clear that the solution lies in Washington. There are aspects of our health we should be handling more of ourselves. I'm thinking primarily of nutrition here, along with anything else we do to our bodies - and yet we have a federal government that actively impedes our ability to do right by ourselves. Think agriculture subsidies, for starters. We subsidize crap, for the most part. We subsidize crap through the food-stamp system, too. Recipients understandably spend their limited resources on the cheapest calories - again, the crap. And then we're surprised at high obesity and diabetes rates for the poor.

At least when the private sector trainwrecks something, I can invest in them and make a buck off it. When the public sector trainwrecks something, everybody's poorer - except those who had the massive resources needed to buy a piece of public-sector power.

Add complexity to the system (and this health-care law is nothing if not complex) and it benefits those with the resources to work the complexity to their advantage - again, that's those who already have the most.

If the federal government has a role here at all, it's to protect us from out-of-the-blue catastrophic health issues (e.g. Lou Gehrig's disease) and to encourage preventive self-care. Instead, they encourage the opposite - everything from obesity to unnecessary testing.

Why would I think that with the Obama plan, that this time they really got it right, honest they did?


Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

God Bless the Multinational Corporation and God Damn the United States of America.
 
2013-03-12 09:24:17 AM  

Gulper Eel: What you get over the years may be spots of improvement in the original program, but you also get mission creep and metastasizing spending, plus constitutencies that build up around parts of the program that may be clearly failing but provide a lot of political benefit.

There is no way to assume that tinkering will make something better, especially if it's in the tinkerers' interests to do otherwise.


But I can guarantee that nothing improves if we don't tinker. There are those in Congress who aren't in it to further themselves - and if they get their way even on a few key points, health insurance in this country improves.

// can there be found at least 10 righteous people there?
 
2013-03-12 09:24:57 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.


"Carls Jr does not wish your kids to starve, please wait here for police so your children can be placed into protective services"
 
2013-03-12 09:33:04 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.


And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.

I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have misssed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.
 
2013-03-12 09:35:02 AM  

jgbrowning: People really need to stop confusing insurance with health care. Insurance strives to not deliver care.


Ya, we know, but without insurance a lot of people are priced out of health care, so you kind of need it if you want to have health care.
 
2013-03-12 09:35:04 AM  

stoli n coke: thurstonxhowell: I sound fat: without reading, let me guess...

They dont like the parts of it that pay for it, while they like the parts that spend money?

The GOP staked out that position years ago.


What position? Not reading?


Republicans have railed against the individual mandate, cuts to the Medicare reimbursement rate, the tax on medical devices, the tax on high-end insurance plans, and anything else that helps pay for the PPACA.
 
2013-03-12 09:35:59 AM  

Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.

I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have misssed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.


Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.
 
2013-03-12 09:38:03 AM  

Ned Stark: Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.

I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have misssed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.

Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.


Clearly 50 bureaucracies will be simpler and more efficient than one.
 
2013-03-12 09:39:35 AM  

Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.

I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have misssed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.


No in fact you can't.  The government has to have transparency and the general public is already prone to outrage.   Any insurance company has proprietary algorithms that they use to determine how much they are going to charge you for your premium.  Agents that sell their products have non-disclosure clauses if they are even allowed to know.  In the public sector this becomes attainable information giving the consumers a proper voice into the decision making process.  After all, in the public sector the idea is not record profits quarter after quarter, but to establish a system that can perpetually support its consumers.
 
2013-03-12 09:43:03 AM  
LOLCOMPROMISE

Yeah, it's not really what Democrats wanted, but it's better than nothing at all. It needs to be made better.
 
2013-03-12 09:43:16 AM  

Dr Dreidel: But I can guarantee that nothing improves if we don't tinker.


Can you? This I gotta see.

America suffered a depression in 1920-21. History lessons generally leave it out because it was so brief compared to the Great Depression, and it was brief because the federal government by and large didn't tinker. We need a postwar correction in the size of government and markets and we got it, and got it over with. There are some phenomena it is beyond the power of government to affect for the positive.

Jump ahead a decade and you see Hoover and Roosevelt, a couple of presidents of the just-DO-something school, whatever their party affiliation might have been. Between them they tinkered for a decade, until with WWII looking inevitable Roosevelt came to the realization that crapping all over the business community when there was a war coming was no way to run a country.
 
2013-03-12 09:43:18 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Ned Stark: Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.

I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have misssed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.

Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.

Clearly 50 bureaucracies will be simpler and more efficient than one.


I'm sure some states will just ignore the problem and not do anything, so really it's more like 47 new bureaucracies .
 
2013-03-12 09:45:31 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Everyone knows healthcare should be entirely profit driven. Giving power to corporations never leads to corruption.

That also leads to corruption, obviously. But if you're going to put your health in somebody else's hands, it's a pick-your-poison situation. And it is far from clear that the solution lies in Washington. There are aspects of our health we should be handling more of ourselves. I'm thinking primarily of nutrition here, along with anything else we do to our bodies - and yet we have a federal government that actively impedes our ability to do right by ourselves. Think agriculture subsidies, for starters. We subsidize crap, for the most part. We subsidize crap through the food-stamp system, too. Recipients understandably spend their limited resources on the cheapest calories - again, the crap. And then we're surprised at high obesity and diabetes rates for the poor.

At least when the private sector trainwrecks something, I can invest in them and make a buck off it. When the public sector trainwrecks something, everybody's poorer - except those who had the massive resources needed to buy a piece of public-sector power.

Add complexity to the system (and this health-care law is nothing if not complex) and it benefits those with the resources to work the complexity to their advantage - again, that's those who already have the most.

If the federal government has a role here at all, it's to protect us from out-of-the-blue catastrophic health issues (e.g. Lou Gehrig's disease) and to encourage preventive self-care. Instead, they encourage the opposite - everything from obesity to unnecessary testing.

Why would I think that with the Obama plan, that this time they really got it right, honest they did?

Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

God Bless the Multinational Corporation and God Damn the United States of America.


Not sure what would encourage private insurers to spend as little as possible. Since now they can only spent 20% of their output paying themselves, they mostly have effective monopolies, and and its now illegal for their customers to drop out of the market.

It appears to my eye that every incentive is to make sure that things as fantastically expensive as possible.
 
2013-03-12 09:46:19 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Ned Stark: Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes., putting your health entirely in the care of anonymous, unaccountable corporate bureaucrats who's only concern is spending as little money on you as possible is unquestionably the smart choice. Like you I want the major corporations to have as much power as possible, without restraint form the elected government. Like you I'd like to see food stamps ended and the poor left to be cared for by the overwhelming generosity of companies like McDonalds and Kraft. Only then will we be free and healthy.

And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.

I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have misssed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.

Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.

Clearly 50 bureaucracies will be simpler and more efficient than one.


I remember when I was in my halcyon Libertarian days, thinking this idea would somehow work out perfectly. I didn't realize then that state and local governments were often twice as corrupt as the federal government. If you want to talk cronyism, metastatized spending, and downright graft, hang around your state capitol sometime. Plus the federal goverment has had to drag many states on more than one occasion into the current century.
 
2013-03-12 09:46:30 AM  

Gulper Eel: As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.


Block grants often fail at delivering what they were intended for. When the direct cash welfare program was reformed in the 90's it lead to an increase in poverty rates as the grant money was often not actually spent on the individual but was diverted to shore up state budgets elsewhere. This was allowed because the grants allowed fungibility of the money so long as the state could justify that it helps the poor and underclass.

An example would be taking some of that block grant money to fix a street, and then justifying by saying that the majority of residents on that street or who use that street are under a certain income level.

Basically block grants screw people over and often fail to deliver their intended services.
 
2013-03-12 09:46:46 AM  

Gulper Eel: verbaltoxin: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?

Clearly the solution to this dilemma is to make it 100 percent politically driven, and screw you haters for bringing up piddling small things like budgets, basic competence and the tendency of power to corrupt.

As usual your additions to this discussion amount to jack squat.

Did you come in here looking for an echo chamber?

The bill was a dog's breakfast at its introduction and the legislative process made it more so. Are you surprised that legislators want to re-visit the whole mess and carve out more goodies?


Other countries' governments manage it fine. Why do you think America's can't? Do you think there's something uniquely wrong with America's government? Why do you hate America?
 
2013-03-12 09:47:22 AM  

Citrate1007: The government has to have transparency


I don't think you were trying to be amusing there, but...wow, you really believe that?

Ned Stark: Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.


Philip Francis Queeg: Clearly 50 bureaucracies will be simpler and more efficient than one.


And here we have a coupla fellers who have no understanding of federalism and no idea how block grants work.
 
2013-03-12 09:49:30 AM  

Klivian: Yea, that's what happens when you water something down to get it to pass Congress rather than just go single payer


Done in one.
 
2013-03-12 09:49:36 AM  

Gulper Eel: Citrate1007: The government has to have transparency

I don't think you were trying to be amusing there, but...wow, you really believe that?

Ned Stark: Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.

Philip Francis Queeg: Clearly 50 bureaucracies will be simpler and more efficient than one.

And here we have a coupla fellers who have no understanding of federalism and no idea how block grants work.


In many cases they work poorly.
 
2013-03-12 09:51:28 AM  

Gulper Eel: Dr Dreidel: But I can guarantee that nothing improves if we don't tinker.

Can you? This I gotta see.

America suffered a depression in 1920-21. History lessons generally leave it out because it was so brief compared to the Great Depression, and it was brief because the federal government by and large didn't tinker. We need a postwar correction in the size of government and markets and we got it, and got it over with. There are some phenomena it is beyond the power of government to affect for the positive.

Jump ahead a decade and you see Hoover and Roosevelt, a couple of presidents of the just-DO-something school, whatever their party affiliation might have been. Between them they tinkered for a decade, until with WWII looking inevitable Roosevelt came to the realization that crapping all over the business community when there was a war coming was no way to run a country.


This you should be ashamed of really. The Depression and the 1920-21 recession were different because they were completely different. Equating the two is absurd and you know it. Have some goddamn integrity.
 
2013-03-12 09:52:35 AM  
I think the article actually says that the democrats are upset that all the law is not being implemented correctly or fully - not that these portions are bad.

reading comprehension fail subby?
 
2013-03-12 09:53:08 AM  
So if I buy a football team, am I not allowed to fire the coach?
 
2013-03-12 09:53:32 AM  

Gulper Eel: Citrate1007: The government has to have transparency

I don't think you were trying to be amusing there, but...wow, you really believe that?

Ned Stark: Damn all this complexity!!!

...but adding another layer of bureaucrats will fix it.

Philip Francis Queeg: Clearly 50 bureaucracies will be simpler and more efficient than one.

And here we have a coupla fellers who have no understanding of federalism and no idea how block grants work.


Thinking something is stupid is not the same as not understanding it.
 
2013-03-12 09:55:51 AM  

Tigger: Gulper Eel: Dr Dreidel: But I can guarantee that nothing improves if we don't tinker.

Can you? This I gotta see.

America suffered a depression in 1920-21. History lessons generally leave it out because it was so brief compared to the Great Depression, and it was brief because the federal government by and large didn't tinker. We need a postwar correction in the size of government and markets and we got it, and got it over with. There are some phenomena it is beyond the power of government to affect for the positive.

Jump ahead a decade and you see Hoover and Roosevelt, a couple of presidents of the just-DO-something school, whatever their party affiliation might have been. Between them they tinkered for a decade, until with WWII looking inevitable Roosevelt came to the realization that crapping all over the business community when there was a war coming was no way to run a country.

This you should be ashamed of really. The Depression and the 1920-21 recession were different because they were completely different. Equating the two is absurd and you know it. Have some goddamn integrity.


Plus there is the stupidity of trying to analyze the Great Depression based solely on the basis of US policy.
 
2013-03-12 10:00:10 AM  

Gulper Eel: Citrate1007: The government has to have transparency

I don't think you were trying to be amusing there, but...wow, you really believe that?


No I wasn't.  Do you honestly think that something as controversial as the implementation of Obamacare will go unnoticed.  Sure both sides with be putting out miss-information, but anyone who wants to can gain access to that information if they are so inclined.  That insanely bureaucratic process is a biatch, but compared to the status quo of having to subpoena a corporation for the information it is like a walk in the park.
 
2013-03-12 10:01:36 AM  

Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?



This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.

/i guess for republicans it is. For the rest of us, it's common sense for the greatest country in the world to provide for its citizens.
 
2013-03-12 10:04:42 AM  

Tigger: Other countries' governments manage it fine.


Far more importantly, their people manage it fine.

A place like Norway does well under a single-payer system because their people have a stronger tradition of not being farkups, for lack of a better phrase...and because their government has a stronger tradition of honesty and being prudent with money.

verbaltoxin: I didn't realize then that state and local governments were often twice as corrupt as the federal government. If you want to talk cronyism, metastatized spending, and downright graft, hang around your state capitol sometime.


That's true, and the most corrupt state governments are the ones who've been the best at playing the Washington game to max out what they get. Exhibit A: New York and its Medicaid program. We have a HUGE Medicaid program, bigger than the next two largest state programs combined...so we should be the nation's healthiest people, right? Not so much. We're in the middle of the pack, and that's with a big city with a lot of rich people and walkers making our numbers look better. Take the NYC metro out of the mix and we're borderline-Appalachian.

New York managed to fark Medicaid out of $15 billion over the past decade or so, saying it was going to the developmentally disabled when no such thing was happening. We got away with it for so long because New York politicians knew how to game the system to make it all look quasi-legal, and knew that Washington was content to look the other way like they usually do.

The thing about block grants is that they come to less than what the state was getting under the piecemeal system, but the state gets somewhat more flexibility on spending. I'll take that imperfect tradeoff because now everybody's eyes will be on the state legislators. They hate that shiat.
 
2013-03-12 10:07:26 AM  
They are just taking the tea party advice of fix old, no new.
 
2013-03-12 10:07:43 AM  

Gulper Eel: Dr Dreidel: But I can guarantee that nothing improves if we don't tinker.

Can you? This I gotta see.


Simple logic, m'boy: if you change nothing, nothing changes, Things may get worse, but they absolutely will not get better on their own.

Do you think that people would one day just stop exploiting the loopholes in ACA? That the problems we know to be there would solve themselves? That no new problems might arise (like claiming all dental surgery as cosmetic* or some asinine name-game like they do in claiming PACs are nonprofits) that need addressing?

*yes, I know dental isn't covered by ACA.
 
2013-03-12 10:08:36 AM  

Gulper Eel: The thing about block grants is that they come to less than what the state was getting under the piecemeal system, but the state gets somewhat more flexibility on spending. I'll take that imperfect tradeoff because now everybody's eyes will be on the state legislators. They hate that shiat.


No they don't, States love block grants because it allows them to shore up their budgets. They are the most inefficient way to deliver services because of that flexibility. Often money is spent on things totally unrelated to the intent of the program with loose justification.

Again, see how well welfare reform in the 90's essentially screwed people over and rose poverty rates over all.
 
2013-03-12 10:09:32 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Gulper Eel: Dr Dreidel: But I can guarantee that nothing improves if we don't tinker.

Can you? This I gotta see.

Simple logic, m'boy: if you change nothing, nothing changes, Things may get worse, but they absolutely will not get better on their own.

Do you think that people would one day just stop exploiting the loopholes in ACA? That the problems we know to be there would solve themselves? That no new problems might arise (like claiming all dental surgery as cosmetic* or some asinine name-game like they do in claiming PACs are nonprofits) that need addressing?

*yes, I know dental isn't covered by ACA.


"Dental plan!"

"Lisa needs braces!"
 
2013-03-12 10:10:33 AM  

Lord_Baull: This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.


Yes - because a massive amount of the healthcare required is for lifestyle diseases, a lot of which wouldn't have happened if not for the federal government subsidizing unhealthy choices.

The USDA in particular reminds me of the kind of volunteer firefighter you see in the news once in a while, the one who sets fires so he can get credit for helping put them out.
 
2013-03-12 10:10:46 AM  
Gulper Eel:
The thing about block grants is that they come to less than what the state was getting under the piecemeal system, but the state gets somewhat more flexibility on spending.

"Flexibility" meaning the ability to spend it on things that have little to do with the purpose of the grant, as you just said the State of New York has?
 
2013-03-12 10:14:07 AM  
Gulper Eel
Yes - because a massive amount of the healthcare required is for lifestyle diseases

Citations for that claim, please? What percentage of our healthcare spending is "for lifestyle diseases"? What is the technical definition of a "lifestyle disease"?
 
2013-03-12 10:15:23 AM  

mrexcess: Gulper Eel
Yes - because a massive amount of the healthcare required is for lifestyle diseases

Citations for that claim, please? What percentage of our healthcare spending is "for lifestyle diseases"? What is the technical definition of a "lifestyle disease"?


Being fat and poor, duh.
 
2013-03-12 10:16:46 AM  

Gulper Eel: The USDA in particular reminds me of the kind of volunteer firefighter you see in the news once in a while, the one who sets fires so he can get credit for helping put them out.


dgt1.net
 
2013-03-12 10:18:39 AM  

Gulper Eel: That's true, and the most corrupt state governments are the ones who've been the best at playing the Washington game to max out what they get. Exhibit A: New York and its Medicaid program. We have a HUGE Medicaid program, bigger than the next two largest state programs combined...so we should be the nation's healthiest people, right? Not so much. We're in the middle of the pack, and that's with a big city with a lot of rich people and walkers making our numbers look better. Take the NYC metro out of the mix and we're borderline-Appalachian.

New York managed to fark Medicaid out of $15 billion over the past decade or so, saying it was going to the developmentally disabled when no such thing was happening. We got away with it for so long because New York politicians knew how to game the system to make it all look quasi-legal, and knew that Washington was content to look the other way like they usually do.


And you want to give these corrupt people more flexibility and less oversight.  Why?
 
2013-03-12 10:19:08 AM  

Gulper Eel: Lord_Baull: This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.

Yes - because a massive amount of the healthcare required is for lifestyle diseases, a lot of which wouldn't have happened if not for the federal government subsidizing unhealthy choices.


Huh? Is this a dog whistle for something?
Funny how the most ardent "supporters" of our constitutional rights are the ones that want government to tell you what you can or cannot do with your body.
 
2013-03-12 10:19:36 AM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: No they don't, States love block grants because it allows them to shore up their budgets. They are the most inefficient way to deliver services because of that flexibility. Often money is spent on things totally unrelated to the intent of the program with loose justification.


How does getting less money help a state shore up its budget? That's what the status quo was doing.

Here in NY the state was taking the Medcaid money for the developmentally disabled and using it for other purposes which turned out to be not entirely permissible...but Washington was giving Albany a wink and a nod on that until a couple years ago. The whole premise behind Medicare and Medicaid is the feds know the stated reimbursment rates aren't enough by themselves to get buy-in from providers, but the feds are willing to look the other way if the providers pad their bills to make up the difference, plus a little something for themselves and a kickback to the politicians' campaigns would be nice.

I have to credit Andrew Cuomo for being as blunt as is practical here on what NY's doing now. We had to cut $125m out of the budget for the developmentally disabled as part of the penance for ripping off all that Medicaid money back in the day. He knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining, because overall  the state made out well.
 
2013-03-12 10:20:06 AM  

verbaltoxin: mrexcess: Gulper Eel
Yes - because a massive amount of the healthcare required is for lifestyle diseases

Citations for that claim, please? What percentage of our healthcare spending is "for lifestyle diseases"? What is the technical definition of a "lifestyle disease"?

Being fat and poor, duh.


I think he's trying to refer to AIDs
 
2013-03-12 10:20:53 AM  

Gulper Eel: How does getting less money help a state shore up its budget? That's what the status quo was doing.


I know your trolling, but I have to say you were doing well there. its starting to fall apart though best to bail out now.
 
2013-03-12 10:26:26 AM  

mrexcess: Citations for that claim, please? What percentage of our healthcare spending is "for lifestyle diseases"? What is the technical definition of a "lifestyle disease"?


Examples: Diabetes II, obesity, the circulatory diseases that accompany obesity, arthritis and joint diseases, etc. Here you go.

Diabetes II by itself comes to something like $45b in the '09 Medicare budget, and the number's been rising fast. Blow up the food-stamp program in favor of something that requires alternatives to processed crap, and maybe you spend more on the food stamps but you'll also keep people from needing treatment for the aforementioned diseases.
 
2013-03-12 10:32:20 AM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Gulper Eel: How does getting less money help a state shore up its budget? That's what the status quo was doing.

I know your trolling, but I have to say you were doing well there. its starting to fall apart though best to bail out now.


My state legislators are shiatting themselves over the possibility that the feds will shift NY over to a block-grant system. They absolutely do not want that.

The prime worry I'm hearing is that the states will fark around with the money, to which I say...and? They're already doing that, and with Washington's blessing.
 
2013-03-12 10:32:22 AM  

neongoats: Democrats find plenty of it stupid, because it was assraped and mangled by republican obstructionism, so what we got was a watered down piece of shiat, instead of any kind of actual reform at all.

farking insurance industry, no farking better than pay day loan scam stores. Parasites that are worthy only of death.


It got zero republican votes, zero republican amendments, and yet passed and lauded as a great democrat achievement, and still you blame republicans? The only obstruction that took place was the two dem senate holdouts who took a Medicare bribe for their respective states that were later tossed after cloture. This is 100% democrat language, now own it.

Bless your heart.
 
2013-03-12 10:35:18 AM  

Gulper Eel: MyKingdomForYourHorse: Gulper Eel: How does getting less money help a state shore up its budget? That's what the status quo was doing.

I know your trolling, but I have to say you were doing well there. its starting to fall apart though best to bail out now.

My state legislators are shiatting themselves over the possibility that the feds will shift NY over to a block-grant system. They absolutely do not want that.

The prime worry I'm hearing is that the states will fark around with the money, to which I say...and? They're already doing that, and with Washington's blessing.


So let's eliminate any restraint on their ability to fark around with the money. Problem solved!
 
2013-03-12 10:35:44 AM  

Gulper Eel: mrexcess: Citations for that claim, please? What percentage of our healthcare spending is "for lifestyle diseases"? What is the technical definition of a "lifestyle disease"?

Examples: Diabetes II, obesity, the circulatory diseases that accompany obesity, arthritis and joint diseases, etc. Here you go.



Obvious troll is obvious.
 
2013-03-12 10:39:38 AM  

Gulper Eel: And you can say precisely the same about anonymous, unaccountable (except to the bosses) political bureaucrats.


I thought we elected those people.  Or to put it another way that we ARE those people.

Good to know you don't accept ownership of your government.
 
2013-03-12 10:41:07 AM  
Gulper Eel: First, the referenced article is behind a paywall, so I can't read it. Can you summarize the facts and figures? Second, that's only dealing with Medicare... do you have any overall numbers?

Third, that's an example of what you consider to be a lifestyle disease, not a clear definition of what lifestyle diseases are. Arguably every disease is either congenital or acquired as a result of someone's actions - a technical definition is important to understand where you're actually drawing the line when calculating this figure.

Fourth, Americans are not the only people to acquire diabetes type II, or to suffer obesity-related health problems like hypertension. Can you explain why our health costs are more than double that of, for example, Australia, despite the rate of obesity not being that dissimilar in the societies (25% vs. 35%)?

Blow up the food-stamp program in favor of something that requires alternatives to processed crap

It's pretty interesting - studies repeatedly confirm that the poorer someone is, the less healthy their diet is... a fact that has been observed for more than a century. Blaming the assistance programs for the poor themselves, then, is perhaps to blame a symptom rather than the cause?
 
2013-03-12 10:43:32 AM  

Lord_Baull: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?


This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.

/i guess for republicans it is. For the rest of us, it's common sense for the greatest country in the world to provide for its citizens.


Telling me that I have to purchase I couldn't afford or face a financial penalty isn't really the same as providing me anything or fixing the rising cost problems with actual healthcare and related rising insurance costs.
 
2013-03-12 10:44:52 AM  
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) then demanded that Cohen explain why the Obama administration "negotiated away" money for another small piece of the law, one to set up insurance co-ops to compete with commercial insurers in the state-based health insurance exchanges. He warned that the administration is risking the entire law's success.

Good idea
 
2013-03-12 10:46:39 AM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Lord_Baull: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?


This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.

/i guess for republicans it is. For the rest of us, it's common sense for the greatest country in the world to provide for its citizens.

Telling me that I have to purchase I couldn't afford or face a financial penalty isn't really the same as providing me anything or fixing the rising cost problems with actual healthcare and related rising insurance costs.


There are subsidies for those who cannot afford the insurance. It does address the rising cost problems of healthcare by covering the costs to all that arise from the uninsured showing up in the ER for healthcare.
 
2013-03-12 10:47:30 AM  

Gulper Eel: My state legislators are shiatting themselves over the possibility that the feds will shift NY over to a block-grant system. They absolutely do not want that.

The prime worry I'm hearing is that the states will fark around with the money, to which I say...and? They're already doing that, and with Washington's blessing.


And yet other states like Indiana are begging to roll it into their other grant programs.

I wonder, what could be the difference between a state like say New York and one like say Indiana?
 
2013-03-12 10:49:21 AM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Lord_Baull: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?


This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.

/i guess for republicans it is. For the rest of us, it's common sense for the greatest country in the world to provide for its citizens.

Telling me that I have to purchase I couldn't afford or face a financial penalty isn't really the same as providing me anything or fixing the rising cost problems with actual healthcare and related rising insurance costs.



I wonder if a single-payer system would solve that problem.
 
2013-03-12 10:51:18 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: So let's eliminate any restraint on their ability to fark around with the money. Problem solved!


Again, they already fark around with the money. They're nothing if not ingenious when it comes to finding workarounds. They've been at it for 50 years with Medicare. Care to have another go at yet another rule that'll only be bent back on itself?

There's no perfect solution here, except to call these bastards' bluff. Shine a light on the roaches. Give them the flexibility AND the accountability, making it known that any fark-ups from here on in are strictly the state's problem.

mrexcess: It's pretty interesting - studies repeatedly confirm that the poorer someone is, the less healthy their diet is... a fact that has been observed for more than a century. Blaming the assistance programs for the poor themselves, then, is perhaps to blame a symptom rather than the cause?


They started out poor. With the federal government's help they're now poor AND fat AND disease-prone, and if they get sick enough they might even become more poor.

But the government can fix that.
 
2013-03-12 10:56:40 AM  

Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: So let's eliminate any restraint on their ability to fark around with the money. Problem solved!

Again, they already fark around with the money. They're nothing if not ingenious when it comes to finding workarounds. They've been at it for 50 years with Medicare. Care to have another go at yet another rule that'll only be bent back on itself?

There's no perfect solution here, except to call these bastards' bluff. Shine a light on the roaches. Give them the flexibility AND the accountability, making it known that any fark-ups from here on in are strictly the state's problem.


So then maybe giving them complete control of  the money isn't the best solution?

The fark ups won't be the State's problem. They will be the problem of the poor who need that assistance. People who seem to to not figure into your thinking in the slightest.
 
2013-03-12 11:06:31 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: The fark ups won't be the State's problem. They will be the problem of the poor who need that assistance. People who seem to to not figure into your thinking in the slightest.


More importantly than my plans, the poor don't figure into the legislators' plans either, except for maybe one day every two years and only if they're in a competitive district.
 
2013-03-12 11:10:41 AM  

Gulper Eel: Philip Francis Queeg: The fark ups won't be the State's problem. They will be the problem of the poor who need that assistance. People who seem to to not figure into your thinking in the slightest.

More importantly than my plans, the poor don't figure into the legislators' plans either, except for maybe one day every two years and only if they're in a competitive district.


So fark the little bastards, right?
 
2013-03-12 11:28:16 AM  
Gulper Eel:

Examples: Diabetes II, obesity, the circulatory diseases that accompany obesity, arthritis and joint diseases, etc. Here you go.

(and some more drivel follows this statement)


And this is when I dedicated myself to completely ignoring anything you may say.  Ever.  On any subject.
 
2013-03-12 11:30:43 AM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: neongoats: Democrats find plenty of it stupid, because it was assraped and mangled by republican obstructionism, so what we got was a watered down piece of shiat, instead of any kind of actual reform at all.

farking insurance industry, no farking better than pay day loan scam stores. Parasites that are worthy only of death.

It got zero republican votes, zero republican amendments, and yet passed and lauded as a great democrat achievement, and still you blame republicans? The only obstruction that took place was the two dem senate holdouts who took a Medicare bribe for their respective states that were later tossed after cloture. This is 100% democrat language, now own it.

Bless your heart.


Because the Republicans didn't filibuster the fark out of it to keep it from even coming to a vote for months.
 
2013-03-12 11:34:45 AM  

Klivian: Yea, that's what happens when you water something down to get it to pass Congress rather than just go single payer


over and done in one ...
 
2013-03-12 12:20:02 PM  

Lord_Baull: Snowflake Tubbybottom: Lord_Baull: Gulper Eel: Astounding. Congress fiddles with the health care system to make it more politically-driven and there are still problems?


This just in: providing healthcare for millions of Americans that could otherwise not afford it = political grandstanding.

/i guess for republicans it is. For the rest of us, it's common sense for the greatest country in the world to provide for its citizens.

Telling me that I have to purchase I couldn't afford or face a financial penalty isn't really the same as providing me anything or fixing the rising cost problems with actual healthcare and related rising insurance costs.


I wonder if a single-payer system would solve that problem.


Fix some, cause others but between total government run (let's just admit what single payer is) and this fiasco hybrid I'd choose the government most likely.
 
2013-03-12 12:26:14 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Snowflake Tubbybottom: neongoats: Democrats find plenty of it stupid, because it was assraped and mangled by republican obstructionism, so what we got was a watered down piece of shiat, instead of any kind of actual reform at all.

farking insurance industry, no farking better than pay day loan scam stores. Parasites that are worthy only of death.

It got zero republican votes, zero republican amendments, and yet passed and lauded as a great democrat achievement, and still you blame republicans? The only obstruction that took place was the two dem senate holdouts who took a Medicare bribe for their respective states that were later tossed after cloture. This is 100% democrat language, now own it.

Bless your heart.

Because the Republicans didn't filibuster the fark out of it to keep it from even coming to a vote for months.


Which in no way changed the content of the law.
 
2013-03-12 12:28:33 PM  
Gulper Eel
They started out poor. With the federal government's help they're now poor AND fat AND disease-prone, and if they get sick enough they might even become more poor.

As opposed to dead from starvation or diseases acquired from digging through garbage cans for meals...? You're missing the point in any case - being poor tends to result in having a poor diet. Maybe we should look at the causes of this, rather than a symptom?

Also, re-quoting the more important parts of my post that you forgot to respond to:

First, the referenced article is behind a paywall, so I can't read it. Can you summarize the facts and figures? Second, that's only dealing with Medicare... do you have any overall numbers?

Third, that's an example of what you consider to be a lifestyle disease, not a clear definition of what lifestyle diseases are. Arguably every disease is either congenital or acquired as a result of someone's actions - a technical definition is important to understand where you're actually drawing the line when calculating this figure.

Fourth, Americans are not the only people to acquire diabetes type II, or to suffer obesity-related health problems like hypertension. Can you explain why our health costs are more than double that of, for example, Australia, despite the rate of obesity not being that dissimilar in the societies (25% vs. 35%)?
 
2013-03-12 12:29:57 PM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: HeartBurnKid: Snowflake Tubbybottom: neongoats: Democrats find plenty of it stupid, because it was assraped and mangled by republican obstructionism, so what we got was a watered down piece of shiat, instead of any kind of actual reform at all.

farking insurance industry, no farking better than pay day loan scam stores. Parasites that are worthy only of death.

It got zero republican votes, zero republican amendments, and yet passed and lauded as a great democrat achievement, and still you blame republicans? The only obstruction that took place was the two dem senate holdouts who took a Medicare bribe for their respective states that were later tossed after cloture. This is 100% democrat language, now own it.

Bless your heart.

Because the Republicans didn't filibuster the fark out of it to keep it from even coming to a vote for months.

Which in no way changed the content of the law.


Yes, in fact it did.  For example, they took out funding for end-of-life planning because the Republicans deliberately misread it and started insisting it has "death panels".
 
2013-03-12 12:50:02 PM  

Dr Dreidel: // can there be found at least 10 righteous people there?


Not likely. Just give me more of a heads up before the fire and brimstone start so i don't end up drunk and screwing my daughters.
 
2013-03-12 12:51:38 PM  
Gulper Eel:I'm not carrying any water for the Krafts and McDonald's of the world. That should be clear, but you seemed to have missed my point so let me make it clearer: they AND Congress have a shared interest in the increasing size, cost and complexity of the federal government.

As for the poor, I would indeed gut the food-stamp program - to replace it with a state-by-state food program funded by block grants.


Yet you argue that there should be less bureaucracy.  So if you sent this block grant money to the states, you'd rely on their promises that it would actually be used for that reason, not shunted off to some pet project, tax rebate for the wealthy, or way to fix a budget hole?  I can tell you, that if left to their own devices without any way of there being oversight into what the state uses that money for, those poor people will be left to starve.
 
2013-03-12 01:32:10 PM  
As a very liberal nurse who also is a nurse in a large doctors office, I feel ok in saying that there are parts of this bill that suck large donkey balls and gives me a sad on the daily.
 
2013-03-12 01:37:38 PM  

mrexcess: Gulper Eel
Yes - because a massive amount of the healthcare required is for lifestyle diseases

Citations for that claim, please? What percentage of our healthcare spending is "for lifestyle diseases"? What is the technical definition of a "lifestyle disease"?


What I can add to this is that doctors are going to be penalized if Joe Schmoe, who is a non complaint diabetic with terrible average glucose readings does nothing to get them down. His doctor can do gold standard treatment, but if the patient goes home and continues to shovel down the twinkles, it's the doctors who get dinged for Joes lack of responsibility. It sucks. There is no provision for babysitting diabetics written into the law, unfortunately.
 
2013-03-12 02:23:30 PM  

nmrsnr: Dr Dreidel: // can there be found at least 10 righteous people there?

Not likely. Just give me more of a heads up before the fire and brimstone start so i don't end up drunk and screwing my daughters.


A +1 for getting the reference, you salty dog, you.
 
2013-03-12 02:34:37 PM  

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Gulper Eel:

Examples: Diabetes II, obesity, the circulatory diseases that accompany obesity, arthritis and joint diseases, etc. Here you go.

(and some more drivel follows this statement)

And this is when I dedicated myself to completely ignoring anything you may say. Ever. On any subject.



Hell's bells, do I have to provide a citation for EVERYTHING, even if it's intuitively obvious to the (non-Fark) casual observer that being a fatass is going to put above-average strain on the joints?

Mayo Clinic. "Rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disorder that causes inflammation of the joints and also affects other organs in the body. Having excess fat can also contribute to chronic inflammation - a condition that is known to increase the risk for diseases like heart disease and diabetes, and potentially also arthritis. Extra weight around the joints may further accelerate arthritis progression."

AurizenDarkstar: Yet you argue that there should be less bureaucracy. So if you sent this block grant money to the states, you'd rely on their promises that it would actually be used for that reason, not shunted off to some pet project, tax rebate for the wealthy, or way to fix a budget hole? I can tell you, that if left to their own devices without any way of there being oversight into what the state uses that money for, those poor people will be left to starve.


And here's another one who's arrived at the station at 10:45 and is in outraged shock that the 9:45 train has left the station.

States are already shunting off the money to pet projects. This corrupt scenario you describe has already been happening.

New York, as I noted, got away with $15 billion worth of this just on alleged care for the developmentally disabled. New York was spending $4500 per patient, per day, and that was four times what the next-most-expensive state was spending...although most of the money wasn't getting anywhere near the developmentally disabled. And the federal government was perfectly okay with letting that happen for years, under both Republican and Democratic presidencies, Congresses and state governments. The process went:

1) Washington makes a rule for how their Medicaid matching funds can be spent
2) NY finds a way around the rule, or engineers a loophole
3) NY politicians profit
4) return to 2)

Note that there's no "2a) poor patients do better" in that process, nor has there ever been. Anywhere. Seeing as there's no will from any party to stop the above process from happening...why again is it supposed to continue, other than it's free money for politicians to throw around to playact at compassion?

It's a process that is irreparably broken. Block grants are a way of saying game-over to state governments, and if they fark up there's no Washington rule to kick the blame to any more.
 
2013-03-12 02:49:19 PM  

JenFromTheWood: What I can add to this is that doctors are going to be penalized if Joe Schmoe, who is a non complaint diabetic with terrible average glucose readings does nothing to get them down. His doctor can do gold standard treatment, but if the patient goes home and continues to shovel down the twinkles, it's the doctors who get dinged for Joes lack of responsibility. It sucks. There is no provision for babysitting diabetics written into the law, unfortunately.


While I'm libertarian on a lot of issues, I have no problem with taxing the fark out of bad choices, starting with all sugars and any starches that the body easily converts to sugars. You want to be a dumbshiat with what you put into your body? Pay up. You want to maybe switch from Twinkies to cauliflower? I think we can arrange a rebate.

First thing to do, though, is ditch the agriculture subsidies. That should hit fatso in his wallet what with the price of high fructose corn syrup then jumping.
 
2013-03-12 02:55:41 PM  

Gulper Eel: Hell's bells, do I have to provide a citation for EVERYTHING, even if it's intuitively obvious to the (non-Fark) casual observer that being a fatass is going to put above-average strain on the joints?

Mayo Clinic. "Rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disorder


That's as far as I needed to get into your citation to know that you're full of shiat, again. Do you know what an autoimmune disorder is? I'll give you a clue: they are not usually caused by obesity. Your citation states that inflammation can be made worse by excess fat, not that the fat does not cause the disease. If you're going to communicate in text, you should learn how to read.

Plenty of people with low body fat, including a relative of mine, have RA. It is not a lifestyle disease. At all. End of story. You are ridiculously farking wrong.
 
2013-03-12 02:57:06 PM  

thurstonxhowell: not that the fat does not cause the disease.


That should say "not that the fat causes the disease".
 
2013-03-12 03:04:42 PM  
So Gulper, you are the one who suggests dismantling the food stamp program to replace it with block grants, even though you know that it won't be used for that purpose (with the accompanying name calling, which I've come to accept from someone like you...you can't just answer a simple farking question without doing so).

And how is that supposed to help anyone?  You know the block grant program will be used for other things, yet you would do it anyway.  And don't try and wrangle out of that, you were the one that suggested the dismantle food stamps/replace with block grants idea, not me.
 
2013-03-12 03:20:41 PM  

AurizenDarkstar: So Gulper, you are the one who suggests dismantling the food stamp program to replace it with block grants, even though you know that it won't be used for that purpose (with the accompanying name calling, which I've come to accept from someone like you...you can't just answer a simple farking question without doing so).

And how is that supposed to help anyone? You know the block grant program will be used for other things, yet you would do it anyway. And don't try and wrangle out of that, you were the one that suggested the dismantle food stamps/replace with block grants idea, not me.


The status quo: a food stamp program that's used to buy crap...because that's what's cheapest. I can't blame a poor mom for trying to make that card last by buying processed-out-the-arse white bread and so forth. Not her fault the federal government subsidizes crap and steers her kids toward it. You seem to be perfectly okay with this.

Far as the block grants go, it's hopelessly obtuse to be upset that they can be used for political reasons if the money delivered under the status quo is already being used for political reasons - food stamps amount to a subsidy for agribusiness and big-box stores. Proper nutrition is a tertiary concern.

Block grants don't come rule-free - tell me you don't really think that. There may be fewer rules than with heavily-regulated grants...but since that big mess of rules are being broken willy-nilly, there's no point I can see to continuing the charade except that it works wonderfully as a bureaucrat-employment measure.

My one main stipulation for the grants: that they go to buy a recommended daily allowance of minimally-processed vegetables, fruits and proteins. I have no problem if the block-grant winds up costing a bit more, seeing as it's more labor intensive to provide actual food than it is to provide an EBT card. But that's labor that will be in contact with people in their homes, as opposed to being behind a desk downtown.
 
2013-03-12 03:27:11 PM  
I think block grants need MORE regulation and oversight if only due to the fact that they are rarely used for what they are being given for.  As far as food stamps being used for crap food, maybe something should be done to make healthy food choices more affordable while accepting food stamps (as many farmer's markets are trying to do now).

Simply put, I think the food stamp program is a good thing, but that the things that people need to eat (more fresh meats (as fresh as possible) and vegetables) need to be the things that are affordable, not the crap.  Maybe we should be subsidizing the farmers that actually grow/raise things we can eat instead of the ones on the bandwagon growing acres of corn to be used for nothing other than feed corn and HFCS.
 
2013-03-12 03:41:29 PM  

AurizenDarkstar: I think block grants need MORE regulation and oversight


Then they're not block grants, are they?

The whole point of block grants is to tell the states "here - since you're so smart, and constantly biatching about hamhanded interference from Washington and unfunded mandates, here's some money and your chance to prove how smart you are".

A lot people here are laboring under the delusion that because Washington has put in place a whole mess of rules and specific targeting strategies for grants, that they then observe the rules and are immune to attempts to bend the rules.

Which is bullshiat. Take a look at that article. Look who worked wonders in bending the existing system, among others - Mitt Romney.

The last line of the article says it all: "Once New York really grasped the rules of the game, it set the agenda," Professor Castellani added. "The feds never caught up."

All the rest is drama from the state politicians. This isn't about helping the poor. It's about preserving a gravy train.
 
2013-03-12 05:37:02 PM  
It seems that passing a bill that provides government subsidies for non-profit health insurance companies and or non-profit healthcare startups would solve a lot of issues I have with the ACA. Especially if there were inflation-adjustable salary caps for employees of the NPCs taking the subsidy.
 
2013-03-12 06:08:19 PM  

Tomahawk513: Well, it ain't perfect and it could sure be improved, but like in TFA, it's still a huge milestone.


Milestone?  So was the Autobahn that Hitler created.  The word "tax" appears almost 100 times in this unconstitutional bill.  Here is a pic of your beloved pinko bill.  http://michellemalkin.com/2013/03/12/obamacare-regs/
 
2013-03-12 06:11:08 PM  

armoredbulldozer: Tomahawk513: Well, it ain't perfect and it could sure be improved, but like in TFA, it's still a huge milestone.

Milestone?  So was the Autobahn that Hitler created.  The word "tax" appears almost 100 times in this *unconstitutional bill.  Here is a pic of your beloved pinko bill.  http://michellemalkin.com/2013/03/12/obamacare-regs/


*Yes, this bill is unconstitutional.  The SCOTUS got it wrong.  President cocksucker appointed the Racist Sotomayor and the other biatch that HAS NEVER BEEN A JUDGE!!!!
 
2013-03-12 10:54:02 PM  
Curiously, the word "dickwad" doesn't appear at all. Neither does the word "colonoscopy."
 
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