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(BBC)   Bill to lower Scottish voting age to 16, presumably to encourage voting by video game   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 92
    More: Asinine, SNP, University of Strathclyde, independence referendum, Scottish Government  
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1212 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 8:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 08:26:06 AM
"And the top vote getters this election are once again Harry from One Direction, Tali'Zorah nar Rayya, and ARSE."
 
2013-03-12 08:39:38 AM
The SNP probably knows how to read polls and figures it increases their chances of winning independence.
 
2013-03-12 08:41:09 AM
Goddamn Obama. WTF is it with this guy anyway?
 
2013-03-12 08:42:24 AM

JasonOfOrillia: The SNP probably knows how to read polls and figures it increases their chances of winning independence.


That's what I was thinking.  Without being well-informed on the subject, this sounds like somebody's play to support independence.
 
2013-03-12 08:42:34 AM
This kind of thing can work in a small mostly homogeneous society.
 
2013-03-12 08:43:49 AM
Ageist gerrymandering. The SNP know they can leverage young idiots to vote for independence.
 
2013-03-12 08:44:01 AM

DubtodaIll: This kind of thing can work in a small mostly homogeneous society.


are you saying that only white people can do it?
 
2013-03-12 08:47:20 AM

wedun: DubtodaIll: This kind of thing can work in a small mostly homogeneous society.

are you saying that only white people  can shoulddo it?


In this case, yes.
 
2013-03-12 08:49:20 AM
That's it!!!!!!

Who the FARK is this Bill guy? How does he wield so much power in so many places!?!?!?
 
2013-03-12 09:03:27 AM
If it's not Scottish, it's crap!
 
2013-03-12 09:03:55 AM

magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering. The SNP know they can leverage young idiots to vote for independence.


So what?

Right leaning and xenophobic parties have leveraged old idiots to vote for them ever since democracy was invented.

It's about time the playing field was levelled.
 
2013-03-12 09:04:25 AM

wedun: DubtodaIll: This kind of thing can work in a small mostly homogeneous society.

are you saying that only white people can do it?


Are there any other type of Scottish person?
 
2013-03-12 09:06:27 AM

limeyfellow: wedun: DubtodaIll: This kind of thing can work in a small mostly homogeneous society.

are you saying that only white people can do it?

Are there any other type of Scottish person?


I thought they were all pale blue.
 
2013-03-12 09:10:32 AM

HMS_Blinkin: JasonOfOrillia: The SNP probably knows how to read polls and figures it increases their chances of winning independence.

That's what I was thinking.  Without being well-informed on the subject, this sounds like somebody's play to support independence.


Yeah, but if Scotland leaves the UK they're out of the EU until they're accepted for readmission.

So the key question for the Scottish youth vote has to be, what effect that will that have on the price of a bottle of Buckfast?


/I feel a bit guilty about that comment.
//Only a bit.
 
2013-03-12 09:11:45 AM

magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering.


Yep. Note how this is just for the independence vote and not for any other elections. The SNP needs to be called out on the shiat at every opportunity. Either you lower the voting age the sixteen full stop or you leave it at eighteen.

The SNP has spent a decade in the Scottish Parliament saying they want independence and did nothing to bring this vote about. It took a Conservative government to give the Scottish people a vote on their future and not the SNP.
 
2013-03-12 09:15:48 AM
I've seen a lot of columnists/commenters saying (or heavily implying) that lowering the voting age is a cynical move on the part of the SNP to get more votes for independence, but I haven't seen any evidence to show that.

Does anyone have any links to opinion polls that show 16/17 year olds are more likely to vote in favour of independence than older people?

I'm just wondering if people are assuming 16 and 17 year olds will vote for independence because in the opinion polls we have seen polling people from 18 and over show that younger people are more likely to vote for independence. Given how different life is for a 16 year old (still in full time mandatory education, living with parents) and 18 year olds (just breaking out on their own for the first time, at university or with a full time job and getting more money than they have ever had before) I wonder if the 'younger = more likel to vote for independence' correlation is going to hold for people under a certain age.
 
2013-03-12 09:22:53 AM

YourOwnMedicine: I've seen a lot of columnists/commenters saying (or heavily implying) that lowering the voting age is a cynical move on the part of the SNP to get more votes for independence, but I haven't seen any evidence to show that.

Does anyone have any links to opinion polls that show 16/17 year olds are more likely to vote in favour of independence than older people?

I'm just wondering if people are assuming 16 and 17 year olds will vote for independence because in the opinion polls we have seen polling people from 18 and over show that younger people are more likely to vote for independence. Given how different life is for a 16 year old (still in full time mandatory education, living with parents) and 18 year olds (just breaking out on their own for the first time, at university or with a full time job and getting more money than they have ever had before) I wonder if the 'younger = more likel to vote for independence' correlation is going to hold for people under a certain age.


It doesn't seem likely to me.  As a poster upthread pointed out -- leaving the UK means leaving the EU and that means that when you're done with school, it's much tougher to leave home and move to London or Amsterdam or Berlin or Paris.  Why would the youths vote for that?
 
2013-03-12 09:23:20 AM

Norfolking Chance: magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering.

Yep. Note how this is just for the independence vote and not for any other elections. The SNP needs to be called out on the shiat at every opportunity. Either you lower the voting age the sixteen full stop or you leave it at eighteen.



Um, you realise that the power to change the voting age for other elections is only with the UK Government right?
 
2013-03-12 09:27:35 AM
Nope.

The fact is that the SNP constantly bangs on about independence to win voters or keep them on side. Whether they actually want a 'yes' results is doubtful as the country could not exist outside the UK. Conversations would need to be happening in Whitehall and Brussels for it to happen and these aren't even been considered and the Scottish parliament must know full well that the defense forces in Scotland would all return to England, despite their proclamations of ownership over the RAF and sub bases.

I don't have the figure to hand but Scotland relies on heavy subsidies from the rest of the UK to survive so I would have to imagine that the SNP figures that 16 and 17 years olds are more likely to vote 'no'.

Unless they're completely off their rocker, which is also highly probably..

i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2013-03-12 09:28:15 AM
And they said my platform of Dane Cook and free WoW gold would go nowhere....
 
2013-03-12 09:28:40 AM
I would like to see that in the State. If we allow people to vote for an American Idol, why not an American President.
 
2013-03-12 09:35:13 AM

Plumbledum: Nope.

The fact is that the SNP constantly bangs on about independence to win voters or keep them on side. Whether they actually want a 'yes' results is doubtful as the country could not exist outside the UK. Conversations would need to be happening in Whitehall and Brussels for it to happen and these aren't even been considered and the Scottish parliament must know full well that the defense forces in Scotland would all return to England, despite their proclamations of ownership over the RAF and sub bases.

I don't have the figure to hand but Scotland relies on heavy subsidies from the rest of the UK to survive so I would have to imagine that the SNP figures that 16 and 17 years olds are more likely to vote 'no'.

Unless they're completely off their rocker, which is also highly probably..

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 460x320]


Here's the figure at hand:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254772/English-anger-subsidi e s-Scotland-hits-new-high.html

Scots receive £1,644 more in public spending per capita than English residents.

Does that mean that they couldn't exist as an independent nation?  I mean, Jamaica manages to be independent and they have half the population and 1/5th of the GDP so I'm sure that Scotland could do it.
 
2013-03-12 09:35:45 AM
Bill to lower Scottish voting age to 16, presumably to encourage voting by video game more sober people
 
2013-03-12 09:36:15 AM
Plumbledum:

I don't have the figure to hand but Scotland relies on heavy subsidies from the rest of the UK to survive ...


Doesn't look like it. Seems that Scotland is actually a net contributor to the UK:

"...including a geographical share of UK North Sea oil and gas revenues, Scotland contributes a greater share of public sector revenues than it receives in UK public spending.  The official statistics show Scotland contributed 9.9% of all UK revenues in 2011-12 but received only 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments.  Scotland's population is 8.4 per cent of the UK total.

The figures also show Scotland has significantly lower deficit levels than the UK."

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/03/GERScomment6313
 
2013-03-12 09:45:52 AM
Seem like OK chaps.
www.weeatfilms.com
 
2013-03-12 09:48:20 AM

Public Savant: magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering. The SNP know they can leverage young idiots to vote for independence.

So what?

Right leaning and xenophobic parties have leveraged old idiots to vote for them ever since democracy was invented.

It's about time the playing field was levelled.


It just doesn't seem fair that for the biggest vote in....ever for Scotland that the widely accepted UK voting 'norms' are out the window. It reeks of politicking and I, for one, as a Scot would like to see the result of this as beyond reproach - regardless of the outcome. This is no place to experiment with long held standards of voting.
 
2013-03-12 09:53:54 AM
Now if Bill could just convince everyone
 
2013-03-12 09:58:41 AM
Personally I'm happier with Scots voting at 16 than I am with the age that you allow children to drive in the US.
 
2013-03-12 09:59:32 AM
You guys are right, how could Scotland possibly be a country in its own right without the UK?

Who would give us bedroom tax? Who would screw our disabled into the ground? Without the UK military how could we possibly hope to contribute in illegal wars? Our whisky and oil revenues would only make us the sixth richest nation on earth, so yeah, how could we POSSIBLY do it alone!???

Scotland is too wee and too stupid to stand on its own without the good old UK running things. At least that's what we are fed by the 'Scottish Media'. My hope is that this horseshiat gets thrown out the window for the referendum.

Just tune into any BBC channel and see how evil and hopeless the SNP and Independence are - I wonder, could the BBC be shiatting it about having their government sanctioned extortion racket halted by an independent Scotland? Nah, couldn't be, I'm sure they have our best interests at heart!

The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.
 
2013-03-12 09:59:46 AM

jaybeezey: That's it!!!!!!

Who the FARK is this Bill guy? How does he wield so much power in so many places!?!?!?


Exactly what I wanted to know! It's probably that Bill Stickers guy.
 
2013-03-12 10:03:02 AM
"No-one has a bigger stake in the future of our country than today's young people and it is only right that they are able to have a say in the most important vote to be held in Scotland for three centuries. "

I dread the idea of a 16 year old (and I include myself as a 16 year old) getting a democratic vote. You're still at school, living with your parents, being fed, clothed, probably never travelled on your own, and possibly never had paid employment beyond a paper round.

Personally, I'd make it that you have to have worked for a couple of years to get the vote.
 
2013-03-12 10:04:40 AM

Turbozutek: The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.


How about taking pity on these in the rest of the UK who do not want to end up under a permanent Tory Government?
 
2013-03-12 10:06:11 AM

jamspoon: Turbozutek: The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.

How about taking pity on these in the rest of the UK who do not want to end up under a permanent Tory Government?


It's a shame, but you are asking the Mum in an abusive relationship to keep the kids at home to spread the beating from the Dad around a bit. Not good mate!
 
2013-03-12 10:06:14 AM

jamspoon: Personally I'm happier with Scots voting at 16 than I am with the age that you allow children to drive in the US.


You do understand that the US has far lower population densities than the UK and most of Europe, right?

Do European 18 year olds have significantly lower traffic problems their first year compared to 16 year olds in most US states?
 
2013-03-12 10:07:10 AM
If you're old enough to drink and kill a haggis with your bare hands, why not allow them to vote?
 
2013-03-12 10:08:08 AM

Norfolking Chance: magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering.

Yep. Note how this is just for the independence vote and not for any other elections. The SNP needs to be called out on the shiat at every opportunity. Either you lower the voting age the sixteen full stop or you leave it at eighteen.

The SNP has spent a decade in the Scottish Parliament saying they want independence and did nothing to bring this vote about. It took a Conservative government to give the Scottish people a vote on their future and not the SNP.


They don't control the provisions for any other elections, those are reserved matters. In fact lowering the voting age is a long standing policy of not only the SNP but the Liberal Democrats, the Labour Party (when it suits them), the Green Party the Scottish Socialists.  The opposition parties even won a vote recently in Westminster to lower the voting age to 16.  The vote was non binding and the Tories are against it so nothing will happen.

Here is a list of supporters of votes for 16 year olds http://www.votesat16.org/about/who-are-we/
 
2013-03-12 10:08:39 AM

jaybeezey: That's it!!!!!!

Who the FARK is this Bill guy? How does he wield so much power in so many places!?!?!?


Thanks for the laugh. I needed that today. :)

The Irresponsible Captain: If you're old enough to drink and kill a haggis with your bare hands, why not allow them to vote?


You, too.

/HAAAAAAAAGGISSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
 
2013-03-12 10:09:56 AM

jamspoon: Turbozutek: The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.

How about taking pity on these in the rest of the UK who do not want to end up under a permanent Tory Government?


Interestingly, without Scotland, Labour would still have won in 1997 (with a majority of 139), in 2001 (majority of 129) and in 2005 (majority of 43).
 
2013-03-12 10:15:17 AM

farkeruk: "No-one has a bigger stake in the future of our country than today's young people and it is only right that they are able to have a say in the most important vote to be held in Scotland for three centuries. "

I dread the idea of a 16 year old (and I include myself as a 16 year old) getting a democratic vote. You're still at school, living with your parents, being fed, clothed, probably never travelled on your own, and possibly never had paid employment beyond a paper round.

Personally, I'd make it that you have to have worked for a couple of years to get the vote.


What if you have left school, are ful time employed, are married, have children.  The age of legal majority in Scotland is 16
 
2013-03-12 10:17:54 AM

jamspoon: Turbozutek: The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.

How about taking pity on these in the rest of the UK who do not want to end up under a permanent Tory Government?


Democracies don't work that way, although after partition initially the Tories might have an advantage compared to before, their vote will drop down to close to parity and things will return to switching back and forth within a decade at worst, just the nature of politics. At most the political centre in England/Wales/NI will shift slightly to the right so more centrists switch to Labour, but even that won't necessarily happen - implictly the party in power will get blamed for stuff that happens on their watch (rightly or wrongly in any given case), whereas the opposition can make utopian claims of how they would have dealt with it better, so sooner or later the voters get fed up with the party in charge and the opposition gets a turn.
 
2013-03-12 10:21:47 AM
Who is Bill and why does he have this power, subby?
 
2013-03-12 10:22:57 AM

The Irresponsible Captain: If you're old enough to drink and kill a haggis with your bare hands, why not allow them to vote?


You must stalk and trap that haggis before you can kill it. But lowering the voting age means they an just set up voting booths in all the pubs and get almost 100% participation.

/Get the NED vote as well.
 
2013-03-12 10:24:02 AM

jaybeezey: That's it!!!!!!

Who the FARK is this Bill guy? How does he wield so much power in so many places!?!?!?

 
2013-03-12 10:24:38 AM

The Irresponsible Captain: If you're old enough to drink and kill a haggis with your bare hands, why not allow them to vote?


I love the Haggis hunt. Those early mornings on the glen, the distant haggis screech in the crisp air, tracking it through the fields of waist-high plaid...truly an experience never to be forgotten.
 
2013-03-12 10:25:18 AM

I Ate Shergar: jaybeezey: That's it!!!!!!

Who the FARK is this Bill guy? How does he wield so much power in so many places!?!?!?


Try again...
oddculture.com
 
2013-03-12 10:36:39 AM
I think voting age requirements should be eliminated. If you're a citizen you get to vote no matter the age.
 
2013-03-12 10:56:06 AM
There's a quote in Starship Troopers that goes something like, "I have never understood why a 40-year-old idiot deserved the right to vote more than a 15-year-old genius." I do not necessarily agree with the militarism of the book (the book itself is super-awesome), but this line always made me chuckle.

The idea of the wise voter due to aged maturity has pretty much been disproven. I think that if you are paying taxes, you should be allowed to have a say in how that money is used, even if you are under 18.
 
2013-03-12 10:57:25 AM
Norfolking Chance:

The SNP has spent a decade in the Scottish Parliament saying they want independence and did nothing to bring this vote about. It took a Conservative government to give the Scottish people a vote on their future and not the SNP.

If you mean the Conservative PM was pushed over a barrel and TOLD by the SNP what was going to happen, then yes. He didn't 'give' anyone anything, he was informed. The SNP have been working on independence since the 60's; it's just all came to a head now that they have a majority government and can do something about it.

But you are right, no one party has done more to build support for Scottish Independence than the Tories have in the last year, just not in the way you think.
 
2013-03-12 11:07:07 AM

I Ate Shergar: I Ate Shergar: jaybeezey: That's it!!!!!!

Who the FARK is this Bill guy? How does he wield so much power in so many places!?!?!?

Try again...
[oddculture.com image 480x327]


Bill Stickers is a man's man.

I still have no idea what that really means. "Man's man". But Bill Stickers had it.
 
2013-03-12 11:14:47 AM

Smelly McUgly: The idea of the wise voter due to aged maturity has pretty much been disproven.


Disproven by the last two elections here in the U.S.A. .
 
2013-03-12 11:52:05 AM

magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering. The SNP know they can leverage young idiots to vote for independence.


Well, they thought they could. Since they had their arses handed to them on plates at the Glasgow University poll a couple of weeks ago, they are probably having serious second thoughts about it now. But, like teh referendum, it's too late, and they are doomed to march on to oblivion.

Arc of Prosperity!
 
2013-03-12 11:52:13 AM
Lower voting age to 16? Hell, no. Raise it to 25. A few years of working and paying taxes gives you a more realistic outlook on life.
 
2013-03-12 11:56:28 AM
i.imgur.com

/Give KITTENS the vote!
//Can't be worse than 16-year olds.
///Legalize catnip
 
2013-03-12 11:59:20 AM
At 17 I was at university, plus I had a job and was paying taxes. Pissed me off no end that I didn't get a vote (and therefore couldn't vote against George farking Galloway)

/Old enough to join the army and kill for your country, old enough to get a say in where that army should be sent
 
2013-03-12 12:02:18 PM

orbister: magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering. The SNP know they can leverage young idiots to vote for independence.

Well, they thought they could. Since they had their arses handed to them on plates at the Glasgow University poll a couple of weeks ago, they are probably having serious second thoughts about it now. But, like teh referendum, it's too late, and they are doomed to march on to oblivion.

Arc of Prosperity!


Very true. That was amusing to see but I'm not sure if the 'electorate' at glasgow uni is all that representative (it's like half a mile from my house btw).
 
2013-03-12 12:12:51 PM

bingethinker: Lower voting age to 16? Hell, no. Raise it to 25. A few years of working and paying taxes gives you a more realistic outlook on life.


OK, I LOL'd
 
2013-03-12 01:13:47 PM
The Parti-Quebecois have floated this idea a couple of times as well.  Young voters are more impressionable and would be a easy mark for the Separatist indoctrination squads.........
 
2013-03-12 01:17:45 PM

meanmutton: meanmutton: YourOwnMedicine: I've seen a lot of columnists/commenters saying (or heavily implying) that lowering the voting age is a cynical move on the part of the SNP to get more votes for independence, but I haven't seen any evidence to show that.

Does anyone have any links to opinion polls that show 16/17 year olds are more likely to vote in favour of independence than older people?

I'm just wondering if people are assuming 16 and 17 year olds will vote for independence because in the opinion polls we have seen polling people from 18 and over show that younger people are more likely to vote for independence. Given how different life is for a 16 year old (still in full time mandatory education, living with parents) and 18 year olds (just breaking out on their own for the first time, at university or with a full time job and getting more money than they have ever had before) I wonder if the 'younger = more likel to vote for independence' correlation is going to hold for people under a certain age.

It doesn't seem likely to me.  As a poster upthread pointed out -- leaving the UK means leaving the EU and that means that when you're done with school, it's much tougher to leave home and move to London or Amsterdam or Berlin or Paris.  Why would the youths vote for that?


leaving the UK does not mean leaving the EU necessarily, Scotland could apply for membership once it is independent, and given its oil reserves it probably would be fast tracked into membership.

school leavers from the UK don't have an easy path to work on the continent, and the reverse is true.
the UK is not part of Schengen zone, and you don't have to be EU to be part of Schengen zone as well (Switzerland & Norway, for example).
 
2013-03-12 01:24:19 PM

Rufus Lee King: Never mind all that. Will they be able to drink in pubs?


Please tell me that is satire because that is a ROUGH 16!
 
2013-03-12 01:28:11 PM

dumbobruni: meanmutton: meanmutton: YourOwnMedicine: I've seen a lot of columnists/commenters saying (or heavily implying) that lowering the voting age is a cynical move on the part of the SNP to get more votes for independence, but I haven't seen any evidence to show that.

Does anyone have any links to opinion polls that show 16/17 year olds are more likely to vote in favour of independence than older people?

I'm just wondering if people are assuming 16 and 17 year olds will vote for independence because in the opinion polls we have seen polling people from 18 and over show that younger people are more likely to vote for independence. Given how different life is for a 16 year old (still in full time mandatory education, living with parents) and 18 year olds (just breaking out on their own for the first time, at university or with a full time job and getting more money than they have ever had before) I wonder if the 'younger = more likel to vote for independence' correlation is going to hold for people under a certain age.

It doesn't seem likely to me.  As a poster upthread pointed out -- leaving the UK means leaving the EU and that means that when you're done with school, it's much tougher to leave home and move to London or Amsterdam or Berlin or Paris.  Why would the youths vote for that?

leaving the UK does not mean leaving the EU necessarily, Scotland could apply for membership once it is independent, and given its oil reserves it probably would be fast tracked into membership.

school leavers from the UK don't have an easy path to work on the continent, and the reverse is true.
the UK is not part of Schengen zone, and you don't have to be EU to be part of Schengen zone as well (Switzerland & Norway, for example).


You seem to be confusing Schengen, which covers free movement across borders, with the EU's right to work, which allows an EU citizens to go and work in any other EU state. The fact you need a passport to leave/enter the UK doesn't otherwise effect rights to work in the EU.

The real problem UK schooleavers have is our (generally) shiatty language skills.
 
2013-03-12 01:58:01 PM

dababler: Rufus Lee King: Never mind all that. Will they be able to drink in pubs?

Please tell me that is satire because that is a ROUGH 16!


It's a screen cap from the 1980's British sitcom 'The Young Ones'. Given the show's rather low budget, the actor was probably a crew member rather than someone specifically cast for the bit part.

/A remarkably clear screen capture considering the source material
 
2013-03-12 02:00:53 PM

dumbobruni: leaving the UK does not mean leaving the EU necessarily, Scotland could apply for membership once it is independent, and given its oil reserves it probably would be fast tracked into membership.


True. And since independence wouldn't be immediate after the vote, Scotland could start the membership process during the time they're setting everything else in order. Likely there wouldn't even be a single day of gap between independence and EU membership.
 
2013-03-12 02:11:36 PM

Public Savant: magic_patch: Ageist gerrymandering. The SNP know they can leverage young idiots to vote for independence.

So what?

Right leaning and xenophobic parties have leveraged old idiots to vote for them ever since democracy was invented.

It's about time the playing field was levelled.


Hm...good point.
 
2013-03-12 02:14:07 PM

farkeruk: Personally, I'd make it that you have to have worked for a couple of years to get the vote.


Why? We don't require that of "adults". They get to vote no matter the life they've lived.

Personally I dread the idea of a society run by people afraid of what their children would do if they only had some political power.
 
2013-03-12 02:15:32 PM

daemoncan: Young voters are more impressionable


Pretty sure that's the same argument used to prevent women from voting.
 
2013-03-12 02:22:58 PM

bingethinker: A few years of working and paying taxes gives you a more realistic outlook on life.


Does that mean we can take the vote away from the unemployed? What about those employed less than full time? And how does retirement factor in? If "working a few years" is your criteria for what makes a reasonable voter you should enforce that requirement, not tie the system to some arbitrary age limitation. Otherwise you're just preventing young working people from voting and allowing older, non-working people to vote in their place.

You might also want to consider what you hope to accomplish by restricting the set of people allowed to control their own government. History has generally been moving in the other direction; be sure you have a good reason to stand against that movement.
 
2013-03-12 02:37:33 PM
Most of the teenagers are more likely to be swayed by emotion and short term considerations rather than long term ones. I know I was at that age. Hence I believe the SNP's enthusiasm for this is indicative of desperation and think it's a stretch that Scotland will vote itself out.
But Scotland will vote it the way it votes, I must say it would break my heart if they went: I'm loyal to the whole UK not just one little bit or the other.
We'd be a pretty small sad little country after that and pretty pathetic inside the EU God knows what Scotland would be.
But at least rump UK would have more representative governments: Scotland skews us much more to the left and we wouldn't have had near so many Labour governments without them and, as I personally don't think there's been a useful Labour government since Atlee's, I'd welcome that as some small consolation. Maybe we could be a small rich country then.
 
2013-03-12 02:47:24 PM

ethics-gradient: Most of the teenagers are more likely to be swayed by emotion and short term considerations rather than long term ones.


Also an argument used to prevent women from voting.
 
2013-03-12 02:57:55 PM

EngineerAU: dababler: Rufus Lee King: Never mind all that. Will they be able to drink in pubs?

Please tell me that is satire because that is a ROUGH 16!

It's a screen cap from the 1980's British sitcom 'The Young Ones'. Given the show's rather low budget, the actor was probably a crew member rather than someone specifically cast for the bit part.

/A remarkably clear screen capture considering the source material


That is the late Gerrard Kelly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Kelly
 
2013-03-12 03:00:21 PM

jamspoon: Turbozutek: The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.

How about taking pity on these in the rest of the UK who do not want to end up under a permanent Tory Government?


I'm pretty sure that you don't understand how democracy works.
 
2013-03-12 03:02:35 PM

Russ1642: I think voting age requirements should be eliminated. If you're a citizen you get to vote no matter the age.


Might be difficult for a newborn to reach the lever.
 
2013-03-12 03:03:43 PM

Smelly McUgly: There's a quote in Starship Troopers that goes something like, "I have never understood why a 40-year-old idiot deserved the right to vote more than a 15-year-old genius." I do not necessarily agree with the militarism of the book (the book itself is super-awesome), but this line always made me chuckle.

The idea of the wise voter due to aged maturity has pretty much been disproven. I think that if you are paying taxes, you should be allowed to have a say in how that money is used, even if you are under 18.


The 40 year old idiot has a better understanding as to how to live his own life than the 15 year old genius.
 
2013-03-12 03:08:22 PM

profplump: daemoncan: Young voters are more impressionable

Pretty sure that's the same argument used to prevent women from voting.


No.  The argument used to prevent women from voting was that married households would have disproportionate voting power compared to a household of a single man and a household with an adult daughter at home would have vastly more voting power even still.
 
2013-03-12 03:18:56 PM
orbister:

Well, they thought they could. Since they had their arses handed to them on plates at the Glasgow University poll a couple of weeks ago, they are probably having serious second thoughts about it now. But, like teh referendum, it's too late, and they are doomed to march on to oblivion.

Yes, I bet they are quaking in their boots that they didn't get the overall approval of a group of university kids, the actual voting turn out for which was less than 13%. I should think they'll call this independence notion off any day now, based on conclusive and all encompassing results like that! I mean how could they possibly hope to convince any of them in a different direction with only another whole year of Westminster cuts and deepening recession to go until the referendum!?

I seem to recall similar polls of university pupils indicating that NO WAY, EVER could we have a majority SNP government or devolved powers to Holyrood. I also recall both happened by a landslide.
 
2013-03-12 03:33:16 PM
SurprisinglyObvious:
Doesn't look like it. Seems that Scotland is actually a net contributor to the UK:

"...including a geographical share of UK North Sea oil and gas revenues, Scotland contributes a greater share of public sector revenues than it receives in UK public spending.  The official statistics show Scotland contributed 9.9% of all UK revenues in 2011-12 but received only 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments.  Scotland's population is 8.4 per cent of the UK total.

The figures also show Scotland has significantly lower deficit levels than the UK."

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/03/GERScomment6313


That is about as credible as the daily mail link someone posted, being an SNP press release.. In reality scotland cannot walk out and take the lions share of north sea oil as the SNP would like to pretend, it is never going to happen that way. There simply is no consensus over the ownership of the oil and all the infrastructure around it (can scotland walk out and say 'all the money spent by the UK on oil infrastructure in and around scotland simply because that happened to be the closest bit of land now belongs to scotland exclusively? maybe, but maybe not). They would have to cut a deal. All the figures also assume all international relationships and trade with the rest of the UK would be unaffected.

Scotland needs to be able to stand alone as a country not a glorified oil platform and noone seems to want to even make that case.
 
2013-03-12 04:07:49 PM
meh you can get married at 16 in scotland.. can't drink until 18

still better than the US .. 18 and 21 respectfully.
 
2013-03-12 04:58:08 PM

EngineerAU: True. And since independence wouldn't be immediate after the vote, Scotland could start the membership process during the time they're setting everything else in order. Likely there wouldn't even be a single day of gap between independence and EU membership.


Which rather calls into question (a) what precisely the SNP mean by "independence" and (b) why they don't see any need to put Scotland's membership of the EU to the people of Scotland.
 
2013-03-12 04:58:20 PM

meanmutton: No.  The argument used to prevent women from voting was that married households would have disproportionate voting power compared to a household of a single man and a household with an adult daughter at home would have vastly more voting power even still.


I should have been more careful with my pluralization; it's one of the arguments used to keep women from voting. I agree, yours was also one of them. Although yours doesn't make much sense without an underlying context of sexism -- the rule didn't require households to select one voter to represent them, it discriminated exclusively on gender regardless of household composition, and was perfectly happy to allow multiple adult males from the same household to hold more voting power.
 
2013-03-12 05:04:25 PM

Turbozutek: Yes, I bet they are quaking in their boots that they didn't get the overall approval of a group of university kids, the actual voting turn out for which was less than 13%.


And which they confidently expected to win, as part of the Great March Forward. What did the Glasgow referendum prove? That better educated young people, who are far more likely to vote than those without school qualifications (a) generally don't care much and (b) when they do care, are firmly against independence. Which rather calls into question the whole idea of boosting the independence vote by enfranchising 16 and 17 year olds.

Part of the problem is that while Salmond is an affable and popular politician (he's a scheming wee chancer, of course, but he's our scheming wee chancer) the rest of the SNP are a bunch of useless numpties and Sturgeon in particular has the credibility and charisma of bucket full of tepid porridge. That they have managed to win two Holyrood elections is a tribute to the level of perceived corruption and incompetence in the Labour Party.
 
2013-03-12 05:52:28 PM

AubergineDream: That is the late Gerrard Kelly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Kelly


Thanks for the link. From the article it like he was around 22 or 23 at the time the episode was made. A good bit older than 16 but it was a fun silly show so really doesn't matter.

orbister: Which rather calls into question (a) what precisely the SNP mean by "independence" and (b) why they don't see any need to put Scotland's membership of the EU to the people of Scotland.


Good questions. EU membership will make more nations like Scotland possible since it reduces the amount of responsibility that the member has to deal with. In a way being a member of the EU is like being a nationette rather than a full blow independent nation. Scotland could decide how much of a nation they want to be. Would they have their own banknotes or adopt the Euro? Certainly are lots of questions related to EU membership that should be considered. The UK "nation of nations" is almost a basic model for the EU so for one of the UK nations to switch to being a EU nation directly isn't too surprising.
 
2013-03-12 06:26:05 PM

gaspode: SurprisinglyObvious:
Doesn't look like it. Seems that Scotland is actually a net contributor to the UK:

"...including a geographical share of UK North Sea oil and gas revenues, Scotland contributes a greater share of public sector revenues than it receives in UK public spending.  The official statistics show Scotland contributed 9.9% of all UK revenues in 2011-12 but received only 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments.  Scotland's population is 8.4 per cent of the UK total.

The figures also show Scotland has significantly lower deficit levels than the UK."

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/03/GERScomment6313

That is about as credible as the daily mail link someone posted, being an SNP press release.. In reality scotland cannot walk out and take the lions share of north sea oil as the SNP would like to pretend, it is never going to happen that way. There simply is no consensus over the ownership of the oil and all the infrastructure around it (can scotland walk out and say 'all the money spent by the UK on oil infrastructure in and around scotland simply because that happened to be the closest bit of land now belongs to scotland exclusively? maybe, but maybe not). They would have to cut a deal. All the figures also assume all international relationships and trade with the rest of the UK would be unaffected.

Scotland needs to be able to stand alone as a country not a glorified oil platform and noone seems to want to even make that case.


Sorry. I was just using the official Government figures. But by all means, counter it with some figures yourself if you can.

Also,  you know how I know you don't know how international law works? This bit:

In reality scotland cannot walk out and take the lions share of north sea oil as the SNP would like to pretend, it is never going to happen that way. There simply is no consensus over the ownership of the oil

Scotland can legally take or leave all the oil it wants if it is within it's territorial waters - and no one can do a damn thing about it.
 
2013-03-12 07:35:56 PM

EngineerAU: Good questions. EU membership will make more nations like Scotland possible since it reduces the amount of responsibility that the member has to deal with.


Which is odd, because the whole point of independence is to take more responsibility for ourselves. At the moment, Holyrood has most legislative effect on day-to-day life in Scotland, Brussles comes second and Westminster is a long way behind. "Rise now and become a semi-autonomous region of th European Union once again" doesn't have quite the ring of the traditional alternative.

Of course the SNP nightmare at the moment is the euro. Having spent years campaigning (a) for Scottish fiscal independence and (b) for Scotland to join the Euro, realisation has brutally dawned that the two are wholly incompatible, and that while me not be doing as well as we'd like we are doing a damn sight better than Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal or Ireland.

I am completely undecided on how I will vote in the referendum because I have, at the moment, absolutely no idea what the nationalists are proposing. Replacing Westminster with the European Central Bank is not, for me, a wholly attractive proposition.
 
2013-03-12 07:47:38 PM
Next they will be electing Frankie Boyle to Parliament.  (Which would make Question Time even more fun to watch.)
 
2013-03-12 10:37:12 PM

wedun: DubtodaIll: This kind of thing can work in a small mostly homogeneous society.

are you saying that only white people can do it?


The scotch aren't really white unless they never go in the sun. They're usually red.
 
2013-03-12 10:43:05 PM

Turbozutek: You guys are right, how could Scotland possibly be a country in its own right without the UK?

Who would give us bedroom tax? Who would screw our disabled into the ground? Without the UK military how could we possibly hope to contribute in illegal wars? Our whisky and oil revenues would only make us the sixth richest nation on earth, so yeah, how could we POSSIBLY do it alone!???

Scotland is too wee and too stupid to stand on its own without the good old UK running things. At least that's what we are fed by the 'Scottish Media'. My hope is that this horseshiat gets thrown out the window for the referendum.

Just tune into any BBC channel and see how evil and hopeless the SNP and Independence are - I wonder, could the BBC be shiatting it about having their government sanctioned extortion racket halted by an independent Scotland? Nah, couldn't be, I'm sure they have our best interests at heart!

The pro-union argument has a bunch of this crap attached.


As an Englishman I hope you do leave the union. Not necessarily you personally but Scotland in general - you seem to hate us so hurry up and go.
 
2013-03-13 12:33:08 AM
SurprisinglyObvious:

Sorry. I was just using the official Government figures. But by all means, counter it with some figures yourself if you can.

HAThe document is no more than a lobbying piece and a policy statement from the current party having control of the scottish local government. No figures are necessary to see this unless you wish not to.

Also,  you know how I know you don't know how international law works? This bit:

In reality scotland cannot walk out and take the lions share of north sea oil as the SNP would like to pretend, it is never going to happen that way. There simply is no consensus over the ownership of the oil

Scotland can legally tak ...


Scotland does not HAVE any territorial waters whatsoever, unless granted them in an independence law passed in Westminster, including the fair Scottish representation there.. Scotland has no recent historical existence as an independent nation and has zero chance of demanding such a thing from the international community other than by mutual agreement with the rest of the United Kingdom. The reason there is a referendum now is because Westminster granted them the right to have one, and the same would go for the details of independence. Scotland, should it become independent, also by no means has automatic ownership of all materials and infrastructure which happen to have been placed/installed on its territory at the time of independence. That would also be a matter of negotiated agreement. The location of the maritime border and the sharing of oil resources would also.. guess what.. be a matter of negotiated agreement.
EVERYTHING is a matter of negotiated agreement PRIOR to independence, and as such Scotland has no inherent rights to act as if it had been independent beforehand. This is trivially obvious. Alec Salmond knows this stuff, he just doesn't find it convenient to address it.
 
2013-03-13 03:53:07 AM

gaspode: SurprisinglyObvious:

Sorry. I was just using the official Government figures. But by all means, counter it with some figures yourself if you can.

HAThe document is no more than a lobbying piece and a policy statement from the current party having control of the scottish local government. No figures are necessary to see this unless you wish not to.

Also,  you know how I know you don't know how international law works? This bit:

In reality scotland cannot walk out and take the lions share of north sea oil as the SNP would like to pretend, it is never going to happen that way. There simply is no consensus over the ownership of the oil

Scotland can legally tak ...

Scotland does not HAVE any territorial waters whatsoever, unless granted them in an independence law passed in Westminster, including the fair Scottish representation there.. Scotland has no recent historical existence as an independent nation and has zero chance of demanding such a thing from the international community other than by mutual agreement with the rest of the United Kingdom. The reason there is a referendum now is because Westminster granted them the right to have one, and the same would go for the details of independence. Scotland, should it become independent, also by no means has automatic ownership of all materials and infrastructure which happen to have been placed/installed on its territory at the time of independence. That would also be a matter of negotiated agreement. The location of the maritime border and the sharing of oil resources would also.. guess what.. be a matter of negotiated agreement.
EVERYTHING is a matter of negotiated agreement PRIOR to independence, and as such Scotland has no inherent rights to act as if it had been independent beforehand. This is trivially obvious. Alec Salmond knows this stuff, he just doesn't find it convenient to address it.



So, you've no official figures to dispute that and anything from the Government (you'll notice the url is to the Government website not any Party) is just propaganda. Gotcha.

And please, stop embarrassing yourself. You clearly have no idea how international law works. You don't 'negotiate' your territorial waters, nor the resources that are contained in them (i.e oil, gas, anything other minerals) - the limits are set down in legal instruments that everyone follows.
 
2013-03-13 04:22:08 AM
The document is from the current government as I said. It is not from some independent government 'office' which would lend it credibility as you imply.

Scotland does not exist as a nation state and has NO territorial waters of any kind. The waters are UK territory. Scotland can only achieve independence by a mutual agreement with the rest of the UK and the division of oil reserves will, should it ever occur, be a hugely central part of that negotiation. To suggest that it 'belongs to scotland' is childish at this point.
 
2013-03-13 12:44:52 PM

gaspode: Scotland does not HAVE any territorial waters whatsoever, unless granted them in an independence law passed in Westminster, including the fair Scottish representation there.. Scotland has no recent historical existence as an independent nation and has zero chance of demanding such a thing from the international community other than by mutual agreement with the rest of the United Kingdom.


Scotland has a well defined geographical area. If we vote for independence, then the territorial waters attached to that area, which are well established under international law, become Scotland's. Frankly, if we vote for independence, and Westminster tries to fark us about, I'll be buying a claymore.

/only half kidding
 
2013-03-13 04:56:16 PM

DuncanMhor: gaspode: Scotland does not HAVE any territorial waters whatsoever, unless granted them in an independence law passed in Westminster, including the fair Scottish representation there.. Scotland has no recent historical existence as an independent nation and has zero chance of demanding such a thing from the international community other than by mutual agreement with the rest of the United Kingdom.

Scotland has a well defined geographical area. If we vote for independence, then the territorial waters attached to that area, which are well established under international law, become Scotland's. Frankly, if we vote for independence, and Westminster tries to fark us about, I'll be buying a claymore.

/only half kidding


You cannot vote yourself independent, you have no right whatsoever to do so under any international law. If you indicate in a referendum that you want to be independent then Westminster has indicated it will respect that wish. That isn't even close to being the same thing.

Also the territorial waters are HIGHLY disputed and there is no consensus whatsoever on what they should/would be. With a complex coastline, islands, historical usages etc all of which play into agreements on ocean borders (and which are often never ever resolved between nations) it would be a huge task to define the territory, along with agreeing a special arrangement for mutual scottish/UK access/usage which would be demanded.
 
2013-03-14 01:48:10 PM

gaspode: The document is from the current government as I said. It is not from some independent government 'office' which would lend it credibility as you imply.

Scotland does not exist as a nation state and has NO territorial waters of any kind. The waters are UK territory. Scotland can only achieve independence by a mutual agreement with the rest of the UK and the division of oil reserves will, should it ever occur, be a hugely central part of that negotiation. To suggest that it 'belongs to scotland' is childish at this point.


Garbage. Scotland's territorial waters and land have been spelt out since long before the act of the union. Scotland was indeed a nation state before and will be again (if not now then later, it's inevitable). Indeed, when our devolved government was brought in, it wasn't created but brought out of recess. The same will be true of our land rights and borders with the dissolution of the union.

Union types keep forgetting that the UK isn't really a country (hey I don't blame you, even the Prime Minister's website gets that one wrong, though 'Life in the UK, the official guide to the UK' does at least get it right on page one) - it's a political alliance. 'UK Territory' when dealing with devolved countries doesn't even make sense, at least no more sense than claiming that Italy belongs to Brussels because it's in Europe.

Also as for the 'Scotland can't vote itself independent' notion, well it's worked for more than 34 small countries since 1990, so what's stopping this one again?
 
2013-03-14 01:50:54 PM
orbister:
And which they confidently expected to win, as part of the Great March Forward. What did the Glasgow referendum prove? That better educated young people, who are far more likely to vote than those without school qualifications (a) generally don't care much and (b) when they do care, are firmly against independence. Which rather calls into question the whole idea of boosting the independence vote by enfranchising 16 and 17 year olds.

But none of that's news. We already know from polling them that the 16-17 year old market are either apathetic or pro-union generally, that was demonstrated two years ago. That's why I don't think the SNP have necessarily brought them on for an 'instant fast-track win' as some unionists are claiming. It's sort of retarded when you think about it, given how many of these kids are studying on the back of lower tuition fees in Scotland; a move the SNP worked to keep and a monetary benefit that a truly united UK run solely from Westminster would certainly abolish.

As for the "better educated" argument well that would be about, what, .01% of all the 16 and 17 year olds you'd be bringing into the voting pool? No party wants just the better educated to vote for them; they want the vast majority of morons to do it instead. If you look around the forums right now you'll see that in publicising this 'Glasgow Uni failure", the media have almost guaranteed the majority NED vote across the board.
 
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