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(BBC)   Consciousness during general anesthesia is found to be rare, but still considered experimental and therefore not covered by your insurance   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 44
    More: Scary, UK and Ireland, Reporter of Decisions  
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5742 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 8:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 09:08:29 AM  
If it's not covered by your insurance, good thing that this is in the UK where you pay for medical treatment out of your taxes.
 
2013-03-12 09:10:27 AM  
I once woke up during surgery. The doctors and nurses were discussing something while he was doing his business. Someone asked a question and I answered it. That freaked them out. The Surgeon told me I wasn't supposed to be a part of this conversation and the anesthesiologist turned up the juice. I wasn't frightened or in pain as I remember, just interested in the conversation.
 
2013-03-12 09:11:59 AM  
Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.

Also woke up in the middle of having teeth pulled, the surgeon says do you want me to keep going, I said "yes" thinking he would give me more gas and he reached in and started pulling the tooth while I was awake.  He put all his strength into pulling that tooth and it wouldn't come out.  Turned out the roots were curved on the end and they had to be cut out.

Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?
 
2013-03-12 09:24:15 AM  
I briefly regained consciousness in the middle of having my wisdom teeth cut out. I wasn't in pain, but I could feel my head being jostled around by the surgeon pushing and pulling (probably cutting) on the inside of my mouth with some kind of instrument. I didn't open my eyes or do anything, but it was still pretty weird.

/CSB, etc.
 
2013-03-12 09:26:58 AM  
"Few anaesthetists that we surveyed said their patients complained of pain or distress or made a formal complaint."

In other news, if you ask people if they are good at their job, they tend to report that they do their job correctly.
 
2013-03-12 09:31:11 AM  

crzybtch: Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.

Also woke up in the middle of having teeth pulled, the surgeon says do you want me to keep going, I said "yes" thinking he would give me more gas and he reached in and started pulling the tooth while I was awake.  He put all his strength into pulling that tooth and it wouldn't come out.  Turned out the roots were curved on the end and they had to be cut out.

Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?


That's crazy! ... biatch.
 
2013-03-12 09:36:31 AM  
Neato, I was the opposite. I sure wasn't conscious during a procedure, but was told afterwards I had to be restrained and the doctors and nurses kept talking to me and made sure I wasn't in pain or anything. The doc agreed with me it was kinda neat, and said it may have been the only time they'd ever seen it. I was just happy to be awake again since I was out a couple of days, wasn't really concerned with details.
 
2013-03-12 09:58:20 AM  

Mirandized: I once woke up during surgery. The doctors and nurses were discussing something while he was doing his business. Someone asked a question and I answered it. That freaked them out. The Surgeon told me I wasn't supposed to be a part of this conversation and the anesthesiologist turned up the juice. I wasn't frightened or in pain as I remember, just interested in the conversation.


It must have been minor surgery.  They usually put in a breathing tube when they do the major stuff.

I had surgery a few years back and what surprised me the most is how absolutely incredible water tasted right after coming out of anesthesia.  I had an IV going and I was drinking water like a fish.  I had to get up every half hour to go to the bathroom (and it was not easy).
 
2013-03-12 10:13:12 AM  
I had a pin drilled through my femur when i was five while i was completely awake, i never went to sleep. Was pretty much just held down screaming while a larger needle was slowly cranked through my thigh.
 
2013-03-12 10:19:43 AM  
I woke up during surgery once... luckily, I still removed his appendix just fine.
 
2013-03-12 10:20:15 AM  

meanmutton: If it's not covered by your insurance, good thing that this is in the UK where you pay for medical treatment out of your taxes.


The article and study are in the UK, yes. Awareness during anesthesia... not so much limited to the UK.

/Couldn't tell whether or not you were serious. Poe's Law is being a cruel biatch to me this morning.
 
2013-03-12 10:28:34 AM  
To be fair, so long as you're not moving and not in pain, being conscious during surgery would usually be considered a good thing.  The thing about anesthesia is that every time you go under there's a (long-shot, but still) chance you simply won't wake up, this is one of the reasons that given the choice you'll get local every time.  Note, for instance, that you're essentially never knocked out to drill cavities or operate on limbs (even stuff like bone biopsies, which can actually hurt quite a bit) these days.

I imagine the "not moving" part is the reason this is considered a potential problem, given that if you're conscious but still on massive amounts of drugs your judgement will likely be impaired.

crzybtch: Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.

Also woke up in the middle of having teeth pulled, the surgeon says do you want me to keep going, I said "yes" thinking he would give me more gas and he reached in and started pulling the tooth while I was awake.  He put all his strength into pulling that tooth and it wouldn't come out.  Turned out the roots were curved on the end and they had to be cut out.

Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?


To borrow the words of a cleverer FARKer than I, of all the things that never happened, this one never happened the most.
 
2013-03-12 10:53:55 AM  

crzybtch: Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?


Wouldn't that just put them on the floor? Having been under twice, I don't remember any euphoric state, just full-on memory loss.
 
2013-03-12 10:59:00 AM  

Jim_Callahan: To be fair, so long as you're not moving and not in pain, being conscious during surgery would usually be considered a good thing.  The thing about anesthesia is that every time you go under there's a (long-shot, but still) chance you simply won't wake up, this is one of the reasons that given the choice you'll get local every time.  Note, for instance, that you're essentially never knocked out to drill cavities or operate on limbs (even stuff like bone biopsies, which can actually hurt quite a bit) these days.

I imagine the "not moving" part is the reason this is considered a potential problem, given that if you're conscious but still on massive amounts of drugs your judgement will likely be impaired.

crzybtch: Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.

Also woke up in the middle of having teeth pulled, the surgeon says do you want me to keep going, I said "yes" thinking he would give me more gas and he reached in and started pulling the tooth while I was awake.  He put all his strength into pulling that tooth and it wouldn't come out.  Turned out the roots were curved on the end and they had to be cut out.

Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?

To borrow the words of a cleverer FARKer than ...


This isn't happening, It only thinks it's happening. K. Flynn. Programmer
 
2013-03-12 11:09:51 AM  
This has totally happened to me. I was on the operating table, and I could hear everything. I guess they inject some sort of drug that paralyzes you during surgery so you don't, I dunno, roll over I guess.

I could only move my eyes and my tongue. I was trying to communicate to the staff that I was still awake. Luckily, someone saw that I was spitting and moving my tongue. I heard someone say "He's still awake". Then they put me down.
 
2013-03-12 11:42:36 AM  

Mirandized: I once woke up during surgery. The doctors and nurses were discussing something while he was doing his business. Someone asked a question and I answered it. That freaked them out. The Surgeon told me I wasn't supposed to be a part of this conversation and the anesthesiologist turned up the juice. I wasn't frightened or in pain as I remember, just interested in the conversation.


You had monitored anesthesia care, or MAC, not a general anesthetic. With a general anesthetic, you would have probably had some sort of device to help you breathe in your mouth, making speech impossible. It's not uncommon to wake up from those, as it is just deeper than usual sedation, but sedation nonetheless.
 
2013-03-12 12:06:55 PM  

crzybtch: And since they have to account for how much gas they use


No, we don't.
 
2013-03-12 12:20:33 PM  
Friend of mine woke up in the middle of an emergency C-section; she'd lost too much blood so the drug wasn't staying in her system (or so she told me? Any medical professionals are welcome to refute). The anesthesiologist caught the spike in her heart rate, told the surgeon to stop, and told my friend that it's okay, he's putting her back under. She said it was scary at the time, but no pain, just some tugging. A kind word can go a long way.

Personally, I always come out of anesthesia crying like a baby. It just feels so wrong! Ugh. . . and the morphine they give you in hospitals is almost as bad (felt like I was on a roller coaster just lying on the bed - fiance said my knuckles turned white gripping the rails because I thought we were moving).

/can you tell I don't like hospitals?
 
2013-03-12 12:21:29 PM  

doonerpjenkins: This has totally happened to me. I was on the operating table, and I could hear everything. I guess they inject some sort of drug that paralyzes you during surgery so you don't, I dunno, roll over I guess.

I could only move my eyes and my tongue. I was trying to communicate to the staff that I was still awake. Luckily, someone saw that I was spitting and moving my tongue. I heard someone say "He's still awake". Then they put me down.


You don't need to go to a surgeon for that, you vapid fark.
 
2013-03-12 12:24:34 PM  

Peki: I always come out of anesthesia crying like a baby.


That's so strange to me- I come out fully awake, and usually pretty hungry. Last time I was put under, I was eating  and walking within an hour or two of being woken up.
 
2013-03-12 01:07:38 PM  

crzybtch: Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.

Also woke up in the middle of having teeth pulled, the surgeon says do you want me to keep going, I said "yes" thinking he would give me more gas and he reached in and started pulling the tooth while I was awake.  He put all his strength into pulling that tooth and it wouldn't come out.  Turned out the roots were curved on the end and they had to be cut out.

Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?


As somebody posted above: we don't.

A lot of the anesthetic vapor that gets carried into your breathing circuit with the fresh gas flow ends up getting vented away, so it would be impossible to account for how much vapor is being used even if you wanted to.

Second, the idea of a surgeon and an anesthesiologist taking hits of vapor before a surgery might not be impossible (it's probably happened once, somewhere), but phrasing it as "sometimes" as if this is something that's common is beyond preposterous.  Whoever your nurse anesthetist is, they're full of shiat.  Moreover, there's other people in the room: circulating nurse, scrub tech, sometimes device vendors, students, etc that would likely report such an incident if it where to happen.  It's a gross violation of impaired physician laws and would likely not only result in dismissal from a hospital, but also likely loss of medical license and perhaps even criminal charges (diversion of narcotics and other controlled substances in a hospital actually requires a police report where I work).  Circulating nurses, especially, are always itching for an excuse to write up a physician (at least most hospitals I've been to), so the idea of this happening in such a widespread fashion as you imply is doubly hard to believe.

Finally, not all anesthesia is general anesthesia.  Some is what people call "twilight" anesthesia that you can in fact wake up from and sometimes remember.  Your second story about waking up while having teeth pulled was under monitored anesthesia care (aka, MAC, aka twilight anesthesia).  You're expected to continue breathing on your own and maintain your own airway during such an anesthetic, as such you're not "knocked out" completely like you would be under a general anesthetic.
 
2013-03-12 01:18:48 PM  

Peki: Friend of mine woke up in the middle of an emergency C-section; she'd lost too much blood so the drug wasn't staying in her system (or so she told me? Any medical professionals are welcome to refute). The anesthesiologist caught the spike in her heart rate, told the surgeon to stop, and told my friend that it's okay, he's putting her back under. She said it was scary at the time, but no pain, just some tugging. A kind word can go a long way.

Personally, I always come out of anesthesia crying like a baby. It just feels so wrong! Ugh. . . and the morphine they give you in hospitals is almost as bad (felt like I was on a roller coaster just lying on the bed - fiance said my knuckles turned white gripping the rails because I thought we were moving).

/can you tell I don't like hospitals?


This sounds a bit more credible than other stories.

Traumas, emergency surgeries, heart surgeries, C-sections with lots of blood loss are at higher risk of awareness.  If your friend had the c-section under general, then she would have been intubated and breathing in her anesthetic, in which case her blood loss eliminating the anesthetic from her system isn't the problem (she's be breathing the gas continuously, so blood levels are more or less stable).  More than likely, her blood loss caused her to have low blood pressure, in which case her anesthesiologist was forced to back off on the amount of anesthesia she was getting.  This is not uncommon in heart surgeries (again, hypotension forces us to back off on the anesthetic vapor) and traumas.  Most anesthetic gases decrease blood pressure, so if somebody has dangerously low BP to begin with, we have to back off.  We'll frequently give something like versed to keep the patient from remembering if they do happen to have some awareness, but it can be hard to guess how much is needed to ensure amnesia if a patient is taking other medications, drinks a lot, etc, etc.
 
2013-03-12 01:36:23 PM  
I can't guarantee that it wasn't a hallucination (like his doctors said) but my grandfathers detailed and horrific account of waking up in the middle of his knee surgery, particularly the part where the pain caused him to yell out "just kill me" will echo in the back of my head any time I go under anesthesia.
 
2013-03-12 01:51:05 PM  

sasbazooka: crzybtch: Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?

Wouldn't that just put them on the floor? Having been under twice, I don't remember any euphoric state, just full-on memory loss.


Really if you take a quick hit it isn't going to knock you out....just make you feel light and fluffy!  lol
 
2013-03-12 02:01:49 PM  
Woke up during a surgery when I was 8 and started talking to the guy in the mask standing over me. He said, "You're supposed to be asleep, kid!" and put the gas mask back over my nose and mouth.

Came to during two different surgeries to remove tumors from my chest/abdomen ... just had to grit my teeth as they sewed me up.

Came to and retained feeling as my wisdom teeth were being cut out. Dental work and things like getting an ingrown toenail worked on require multiple oversized injections of local anesthetic. After telling me he'd injected enough into my big toe "to drop a rhino," my podiatrist said, "Some people just metabolize this stuff very quickly. You seem to be one of them."

crzybtch: Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.


I was terrified I'd have an experience like that a couple of years ago when I had a complete upper and lower jaw realignment (they cut off both upper and lower jaws, moved them forward, realigned, then reattached them with metal plates) and a tongue reduction. While they had my upper jaw off, they fixed a deviated septum and removed some turbinates. I had conversations with my surgeon and the anesthesiologist about my history and said, "I really, really, don't want any memory of what's happening here today. What do I do if I come to while you have my jaws loose?"

They didn't really have an answer, except to put electrodes on my head and tell me, "If it looks like you're coming to, we'll put you back under." I don't remember anything, so it worked out OK. (Recovery was another thing - while I was semiconscious, I kept pulling out my ventilator, stomach pump tube and IVs. When the preacher's wife came to visit, I welcomed her by pulling off my gown and yanking out my catheter. When I finally came to, I was in restraints, and the nursing staff was a bit cranky with me.)
 
2013-03-12 02:34:18 PM  

rga184: crzybtch: Had surgery to correct a badly deviated septum, woke up in the middle of it but couldn't talk and couldn't move.  So imagine someone taking a chisel and chiseling the inside of your nose while you are awake!  I was even crying and the guy kept dabbing my tears but never realized I was awake.  Told the surgeon later that I was awake for part of it and he said I was dreaming.  Then I repeated the "golf story" he told the anesthetist during surgery and his face turned white!   Still haunts me sometimes and it was 30 years ago.

Also woke up in the middle of having teeth pulled, the surgeon says do you want me to keep going, I said "yes" thinking he would give me more gas and he reached in and started pulling the tooth while I was awake.  He put all his strength into pulling that tooth and it wouldn't come out.  Turned out the roots were curved on the end and they had to be cut out.

Have since found out from a nurse anesthetist that sometimes the doctor and anesthesiologist take a few hits of the gas after they knock you out so they can have fun while they are operating on you!   And since they have to account for how much gas they use, you can be shorted, making it more likely that you will wake up!  Nice, huh?

As somebody posted above: we don't.

A lot of the anesthetic vapor that gets carried into your breathing circuit with the fresh gas flow ends up getting vented away, so it would be impossible to account for how much vapor is being used even if you wanted to.

Second, the idea of a surgeon and an anesthesiologist taking hits of vapor before a surgery might not be impossible (it's probably happened once, somewhere), but phrasing it as "sometimes" as if this is something that's common is beyond preposterous.  Whoever your nurse anesthetist is, they're full of shiat.  Moreover, there's other people in the room: circulating nurse, scrub tech, sometimes device vendors, students, etc that would likely report such an incident if it where to happen.  It's a g ...


Well I don't know what kind of Utopia you live in, but I live in Detroit where lots and lots of crazy things happen.  I am not saying that is what happened in my case, but if you think it NEVER happens, then I think you are kind of naive.  I bet there are lots of rehab places filled with medical people who could tell you all kinds of drug abuse stories.  That being said, I am sure there are many, many legitimate people in the field, however to think they are ALL on the level is overly optimistic and possibly dangerous.  And as far as lots of other people being there, there were only two people in the room both times.   And yeah, it was obviously light anesthetic, but when I couldn't move and my nasal cartilage was being scraped with a chisel it didn't really matter what kind of anesthesia they used!  You cannot imagine how horrifically painful it was!

Also I have had many, many instances of problems with people in the medical community.   I had symptoms of a pituitary tumor for 10 years and saw multiple doctors before they figured it out.  I had symptoms of Grave's Disease for 8 years before they figured it out.  I had trouble with my vision blacking out in one eye when I turned my head and an eye specialist told me it was a "natural reaction" like if you are falling, you put your arms out in front of you.  (wtf)  My sister had a NINE pound tumor in her abdomen that her doctor "missed" which turned out to be Ovarian Cancer that killed her at 45.  I had radiation treatments and it was totally obvious that the tech forgot to reset the machine.  The person before me had a cancerous brain tumor.  I had a benign tumor.  She was obviously freaked out and told me to skip the next week of treatment.  Did she bother to tell my doctor?  Nope.  I had all my wisdom teeth removed and 9 months later got a letter from the office that the surgeon had died of AIDS and I should get tested.  I could go on and on.  Trust me, I am not exaggerating, lying or embellishing.  All these things did indeed happen to me and I learned that having blind trust in medical personnel is a dangerous thing!
 
2013-03-12 03:52:41 PM  
Crzy, there's a remarkable overlap in our medical history.

I've had surgery under general three times, and been awake three times  (as in "she's activating her vent!" from the anesthesiologist).  Twice I told the surgeons what they'd been talking about during surgery, and the second time it was planned - I asked the surgeon to tell me something to remember so he'd believe me.

WRT doctors using the patient's nitrous, I haven't seen that, but my dentist told me about a colleague who would strap on the mask for a half hour or so before going home, just to take the edge off the day. (He started losing feeling in his fingertips, which sounds  like a morality play for dentists, so that may be the origin of the story).
 
2013-03-12 04:03:04 PM  

crzybtch: Well I don't know what kind of Utopia you live in, but I live in Detroit where lots and lots of crazy things happen


rga184 isn't saying doctors are perfect.  He's saying that your story didn't happen precisely the way you remember it.  In particular:
1.  Plenty of people abuse narcotics (and a few abuse gas).  The ones who abuse gas are caught almost immediately because it's obvious.  The ones who abuse narcotics hide it until they get fired or accidentally kill themselves.  Not coincidentally, most places keep track of your narcotics but none keep track of your gas.  Is it plausible that someone involved in your surgery was stealing your painkillers?  Sure.  Is it plausible that someone involved in your surgery was stealing your gas?  No.  Both because they don't account for their gas and because:

2.  You didn't get gas if there were only two people in the room.  You got IV sedation from a regular nurse.  If by some chance they genuinely intended to put you all the way to sleep so that you wouldn't remember the "golf story", then they were taking excessive risks by doing so.
 
2013-03-12 04:29:55 PM  

crzybtch: Well I don't know what kind of Utopia you live in, but I live in Detroit where lots and lots of crazy things happen.  I am not saying that is what happened in my case, but if you think it NEVER happens, then I think you are kind of naive.  I bet there are lots of rehab places filled with medical people who could tell you all kinds of drug abuse stories.  That being said, I am sure there are many, many legitimate people in the field, however to think they are ALL on the level is overly optimistic and possibly dangerous.  And as far as lots of other people being there, there were only two people in the room both times.   And yeah, it was obviously light anesthetic, but when I couldn't move and my nasal cartilage was being scraped with a chisel it didn't really matter what kind of anesthesia they used!  You cannot imagine how horrifically painful it was!

Also I have had many, many instances of problems with people in the medical community.   I had symptoms of a pituitary tumor for 10 years and saw multiple doctors before they figured it out.  I had symptoms of Grave's Disease for 8 years before they figured it out.  I had trouble with my vision blacking out in one eye when I turned my head and an eye specialist told me it was a "natural reaction" like if you are falling, you put your arms out in front of you.  (wtf)  My sister had a NINE pound tumor in her abdomen that her doctor "missed" which turned out to be Ovarian Cancer that killed her at 45.  I had radiation treatments and it was totally obvious that the tech forgot to reset the machine.  The person before me had a cancerous brain tumor.  I had a benign tumor.  She was obviously freaked out and told me to skip the next week of treatment.  Did she bother to tell my doctor?  Nope.  I had all my wisdom teeth removed and 9 months later got a letter from the office that the surgeon had died of AIDS and I should get tested.  I could go on and on.  Trust me, I am not exaggerating, lying or embellishing.  All these thi ...


First, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with the medical community.  I'm not sure why you've had so many issues with the medical community, nor do I know the specifics of all the cases you just mentioned, so I won't comment further on that.

That being said, and without seeming dismissive or accusatory, you have a bias against physicians.  Justified?  Maybe, but you're biased.  So we'll start our discussion on surgeon-anesthesiologist drug binges with that context in mind.

I never said that physician drug/alcohol use never happens.  I actually posted that I'm sure the situation that was described to you happened somewhere at some point, so I'm not sure why you pretend I claimed otherwise.  What I said is that the vast, vast majority of practitioners, including the vast majority of anesthesiologists do not practice medicine that way.  The idea that "sometimes" your doctors in the OR will take a hit of gas to have fun during the operation is bullshiat because it implies it's a common occurence.  The veracity of your story of drug addled doctors is further brought to question by the fact that the nurse anesthetist who told you this story further told you that we need to account for how much gas is used.  That is not only untrue, it's actually impossible to account for every breath of gas used in anesthesia.  So yeah, it's bullshiat.  I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling the nurse anesthetist who told you this story a liar.  I'll stand by that.

I personally know a physician who abused narcotics at work.  They lost their position an their career was ruined.  That being said, I took comfort in the fact that he was caught because whoever caught him likely saved his life.  The drugs we use are incredibly potent, and undetected abuse of these drugs frequently ends in death.  I'm all too aware of these realities.  I don't need you to point them out to me.

I'm sure the sedation you had while having teeth removed was light, as it was done outside of an OR setting and not by an anesthesiologist.  And yeah, that probably involved your dentist and their assistant, so only two people.

I was referring to procedures that take place in the OR setting with anesthesia involved, and not yours specifically.   If the practice of taking a hit of gas were frequent, I can tell you for sure that this would have to take place in the presence of a circulating nurse and a scrub tech AT LEAST.  These would not always be the same people either, so the risk of getting reported would be extremely high and carry extremely serious consequences.  Is it impossible that a surgeon and an anesthesiologist would do that?  No.  Is it likely?  Hell no.  Is it possible that this happens "sometimes" when people get anesthesia?  Not really.  Not really at all.

Notice I'm not commenting on your particular case of recall.  I don't know what type of anesthesia you were getting, and so I'm not bothering to question your story.  Feel free to call me naive or insult my intelligence further though.  Just know I'm not doing the same to you.

/I know, I know, welcome to Fark.
 
2013-03-12 04:43:23 PM  

Riffington: crzybtch: Well I don't know what kind of Utopia you live in, but I live in Detroit where lots and lots of crazy things happen

rga184 isn't saying doctors are perfect.  He's saying that your story didn't happen precisely the way you remember it.  In particular:
1.  Plenty of people abuse narcotics (and a few abuse gas).  The ones who abuse gas are caught almost immediately because it's obvious.  The ones who abuse narcotics hide it until they get fired or accidentally kill themselves.  Not coincidentally, most places keep track of your narcotics but none keep track of your gas.  Is it plausible that someone involved in your surgery was stealing your painkillers?  Sure.  Is it plausible that someone involved in your surgery was stealing your gas?  No.  Both because they don't account for their gas and because:

2.  You didn't get gas if there were only two people in the room.  You got IV sedation from a regular nurse.  If by some chance they genuinely intended to put you all the way to sleep so that you wouldn't remember the "golf story", then they were taking excessive risks by doing so.


Thanks, I'm not sure what they generally do with septoplasties in the private practice world (still a resident), so I didn't address that.  Do they frequently do those with nurse sedation?  **shiver**

/not a hit on nurses, a hit on not being asleep enough for the procedure!
 
2013-03-12 04:53:26 PM  

rga184: Thanks, I'm not sure what they generally do with septoplasties in the private practice world (still a resident), so I didn't address that. Do they frequently do those with nurse sedation? **shiver**


If an ENT can give good local, the patient is reasonable, and the septoplasty is simple, sedation is not always necessary.  If sedation is given, airway protection is going to be a major issue - I would personally almost always favor a general anesthetic with intubation.
 
2013-03-12 05:02:39 PM  
rga184  "Feel free to call me naive or insult my intelligence further though.  Just know I am not doing the same to you."

Methinks thou dost protest too much!  hahaha

Do I have a bias against physicians?  You bet!   Experience was my teacher.

And how is it exactly that you know what the "vast majority:" of practitioners do?  Hidden cameras?

The story told to me by a nurse anesthetist was not related to my situation, it was just a comment.  I did not say that I experienced that....I said it was a story that someone told me.  Is it bullshiat, maybe.

I didn't happen to be talking about my experience in the OR, but I was talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCES that related to the article!  And from a patients standpoint, if someone is suffering a horrendously painful experience, the location or type of anesthesia is not really the most important part of the story!

I hate to rain on your parade, but there is no way you can possibly know how many surgeons are working with painkillers or booze or worse.  While I may be biased against the medical community you are clearly to willing to believe that everyone involved is to be trusted.  Kind of reminds me of my mother and her friends having such blind faith in priests in their beloved Catholic church.  Just sayin!

Oh yeah, nice passive/aggresive items in your response:
"I don't know what type of anesthesia you were getting, and so I'm not BOTHERING to question your story."
As a VICTIM of horrors commited by the medical establishment that you so obviously cherish, thanks for rubbing salt in my wounds.
Always blame the victim, nice theory.
 
2013-03-12 05:21:18 PM  
I've woken up more than once. One time I woke up, and the nurse that was supposed to be keeping watch was sitting in her chair looking at a magazine. The doctor came over, they looked at me, and she said "I wonder if he'll remember this?" Yes. Yes, I did. I wasn't in pain or anything, at least. Plus she noticed me pretty quickly.
 
2013-03-12 05:41:32 PM  

ringo2: Crzy, there's a remarkable overlap in our medical history.

I've had surgery under general three times, and been awake three times  (as in "she's activating her vent!" from the anesthesiologist).  Twice I told the surgeons what they'd been talking about during surgery, and the second time it was planned - I asked the surgeon to tell me something to remember so he'd believe me.

WRT doctors using the patient's nitrous, I haven't seen that, but my dentist told me about a colleague who would strap on the mask for a half hour or so before going home, just to take the edge off the day. (He started losing feeling in his fingertips, which sounds  like a morality play for dentists, so that may be the origin of the story).


Isn't it great when something like that happens and people won't believe you?  My doctor kept insisting that I was dreaming until I told him about the conversation he was having with the anesthetist.  Do you think the guy even apologized?  Nope.  And then I have people on here acting like I don't know what I am talking about.  Really pisses me off that I went through my own personal version of hell and then I get to have skeptics to deal with...fark need a lie detector just so that some of us can prove a point!

I also had several episodes of going into major surgery and they give you a sedative before hand.  Never works on me.  Fun getting wheeled on a gurney through the basement and into the operating room which never looks near as pretty as it does on tv!   Scary as hell!  I love the look on everyones face when they wheel me in and I say "hi how ya doing"..hahaha
 
2013-03-12 05:43:57 PM  
They told me I wouldn't feel anything, but in the middle of the operation, I felt this sharp pain, suddenly it felt like I was swimming under water trying to get to the surface, and when I broke through, I was awake in the operation, yelling, "Hey, I can feel that!"

/sure got their attention
 
2013-03-12 05:57:29 PM  
My dad said he woke up during his heart bypass.

He also said he'd die rather than have another

/He's dead, Jim.
 
2013-03-12 07:09:17 PM  
I used to be a nurse so I'm really rolling my eyes at some of these comments...

/oy vey
 
2013-03-12 08:09:18 PM  

crzybtch: rga184  "Feel free to call me naive or insult my intelligence further though.  Just know I am not doing the same to you."

Methinks thou dost protest too much!  hahaha

Do I have a bias against physicians?  You bet!   Experience was my teacher.

And how is it exactly that you know what the "vast majority:" of practitioners do?  Hidden cameras?

The story told to me by a nurse anesthetist was not related to my situation, it was just a comment.  I did not say that I experienced that....I said it was a story that someone told me.  Is it bullshiat, maybe.

I didn't happen to be talking about my experience in the OR, but I was talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCES that related to the article!  And from a patients standpoint, if someone is suffering a horrendously painful experience, the location or type of anesthesia is not really the most important part of the story!

I hate to rain on your parade, but there is no way you can possibly know how many surgeons are working with painkillers or booze or worse.  While I may be biased against the medical community you are clearly to willing to believe that everyone involved is to be trusted.  Kind of reminds me of my mother and her friends having such blind faith in priests in their beloved Catholic church.  Just sayin!

Oh yeah, nice passive/aggresive items in your response:
"I don't know what type of anesthesia you were getting, and so I'm not BOTHERING to question your story."
As a VICTIM of horrors commited by the medical establishment that you so obviously cherish, thanks for rubbing salt in my wounds.
Always blame the victim, nice theory.



Again, genius, I'm not going to argue about your personal experiences.  I was questioning the accusations that you made about the widespread practice of anesthesiologists and surgeons stealing your anesthetic gas for their own recreational use prior to a procedure.   And again, genius, I'm not claiming that the medical community is beyond reproach, I'm claiming that the likelihood of people so frequently, openly, and brazenly being able to do that without getting caught is bullshiat.  Finally, genius, I'm claiming that the factual claims about anesthesiologists having to account for how much gas is used is not only untrue, but also impossible to do, and so the whole CRNA story you irresponsibly repeated is flat out untrue.

As far as me blaming you, I'm not sure where I wrote that you were at fault for what happened to you.  For the second time, I'm sorry that any of that happened to you, even if you do seem to be kind of an obtuse jerk.  Even obtuse jerks like you deserve good medical care.  How's that for not blaming the victim?
 
2013-03-12 09:19:35 PM  

crzybtch: I love the look on everyones face when they wheel me in and I say "hi how ya doing"..


Why would they have a funny look on their face?  Do you say it in a funny way?
 
2013-03-12 10:38:13 PM  
Pre-anesthesia, they tied you down with leather-covered chains so you wouldn't move suddenly while they were cutting into you...

So suck it up you wimps.
 
2013-03-12 10:42:14 PM  
I came to once, reaching for the tube in my throat. I was quickly out again. Much worse was  a coma (dun, dun, dun). Reality was a mix of "Meatball Machine" and "State Fair";  plus I was tied down. Now I just say no to partial awareness.
 
2013-03-13 02:49:58 AM  

crzybtch: Well I don't know what kind of Utopia you live in, but I live in Detroit where lots and lots of crazy things happen.  I am not saying that is what happened in my case, but if you think it NEVER happens, then I think you are kind of naive.  I bet there are lots of rehab places filled with medical people who could tell you all kinds of drug abuse stories.  That being said, I am sure there are many, many legitimate people in the field, however to think they are ALL on the level is overly optimistic and possibly dangerous.  And as far as lots of other people being there, there were only two people in the room both times.   And yeah, it was obviously light anesthetic, but when I couldn't move and my nasal cartilage was being scraped with a chisel it didn't really matter what kind of anesthesia they used!  You cannot imagine how horrifically painful it was!

Also I have had many, many instances of problems with people in the medical community.   I had symptoms of a pituitary tumor for 10 years and saw multiple doctors before they figured it out.  I had symptoms of Grave's Disease for 8 years before they figured it out.  I had trouble with my vision blacking out in one eye when I turned my head and an eye specialist told me it was a "natural reaction" like if you are falling, you put your arms out in front of you.  (wtf)  My sister had a NINE pound tumor in her abdomen that her doctor "missed" which turned out to be Ovarian Cancer that killed her at 45.  I had radiation treatments and it was totally obvious that the tech forgot to reset the machine.  The person before me had a cancerous brain tumor.  I had a benign tumor.  She was obviously freaked out and told me to skip the next week of treatment.  Did she bother to tell my doctor?  Nope.  I had all my wisdom teeth removed and 9 months later got a letter from the office that the surgeon had died of AIDS and I should get tested...

...I slept on an old dog bed stuffed with wigs. I watched a prostitute stab a clown. Our basketball hoop was a ribcage. A ribcage! Some guy with dreads electrocuted my fish. I seen a blind guy bite a police horse. A puppy committed suicide after he saw our bathroom. I once bit into a burrito and there was a child's shoe in it. I seen a hooker eat a tire. A pack of wild dogs took over and successfully ran a Wendy's. The sewer people stole my skateboard. The projects I lived in was named after Zachary Taylor, generally considered to be one of the worst presidents of all time. I once saw a baby give another baby a tattoo. They were very drunk!

 
2013-03-13 02:05:25 PM  

rga184: Again, genius, I'm not going to argue about your personal experiences.  I was questioning the accusations that you made about the widespread practice of anesthesiologists and surgeons stealing your anesthetic gas for their own recreational use prior to a procedure.   And again, genius, I'm not claiming that the medical community is beyond reproach, I'm claiming that the likeliho ...


So nice to know that someone who speaks for the medical community is so kind, compassionate and understanding!

And to all those people who have had horrific experiences, my heart goes out to you.

To all the skeptics, I hope that the same thing happens to you one day and no one believes you.
 
2013-03-14 09:27:17 AM  

Robots are Strong: crzybtch: Well I don't know what kind of Utopia you live in, but I live in Detroit where lots and lots of crazy things happen.  I am not saying that is what happened in my case, but if you think it NEVER happens, then I think you are kind of naive.  I bet there are lots of rehab places filled with medical people who could tell you all kinds of drug abuse stories.  That being said, I am sure there are many, many legitimate people in the field, however to think they are ALL on the level is overly optimistic and possibly dangerous.  And as far as lots of other people being there, there were only two people in the room both times.   And yeah, it was obviously light anesthetic, but when I couldn't move and my nasal cartilage was being scraped with a chisel it didn't really matter what kind of anesthesia they used!  You cannot imagine how horrifically painful it was!

Also I have had many, many instances of problems with people in the medical community.   I had symptoms of a pituitary tumor for 10 years and saw multiple doctors before they figured it out.  I had symptoms of Grave's Disease for 8 years before they figured it out.  I had trouble with my vision blacking out in one eye when I turned my head and an eye specialist told me it was a "natural reaction" like if you are falling, you put your arms out in front of you.  (wtf)  My sister had a NINE pound tumor in her abdomen that her doctor "missed" which turned out to be Ovarian Cancer that killed her at 45.  I had radiation treatments and it was totally obvious that the tech forgot to reset the machine.  The person before me had a cancerous brain tumor.  I had a benign tumor.  She was obviously freaked out and told me to skip the next week of treatment.  Did she bother to tell my doctor?  Nope.  I had all my wisdom teeth removed and 9 months later got a letter from the office that the surgeon had died of AIDS and I should get tested...

...I slept on an old dog bed stuffed with wigs. I watched a prostitute stab a clo ...


Let me guess....the Holocaust never happened.....we never landed on the moon, it was a photo shoot....slavery wasn't THAT bad.....etc, etc......
 
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