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    More: Interesting, Anquan Boldin, Michael Boldin, Colin Kaepernick, play maker, receiving yards  
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3160 clicks; posted to Sports » on 11 Mar 2013 at 9:11 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



89 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2013-03-11 09:03:20 PM  
I know how NFL trades generally work, but I still find it hard to believe that the Ravens couldn't get more than a 6th rounder for Boldin.
 
2013-03-11 09:16:00 PM  

FreakinB: I know how NFL trades generally work, but I still find it hard to believe that the Ravens couldn't get more than a 6th rounder for Boldin.


It's not that they couldn't, they just took the better of two offers (Minny put up a 7th round pick). That, and they wanted to Send A Message to Boldin. A message that may yet backfire on the Ravens.
 
2013-03-11 09:18:50 PM  
49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.
 
2013-03-11 09:18:53 PM  
Hmmm...interesting.  Shocking that they traded Boldin but simply put the Ravens outmaneuvered him.
 
2013-03-11 09:22:33 PM  
Son of a Biatch!

As someone who despises the niners this is bad news
 
2013-03-11 09:25:10 PM  

puffy999: 49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.


You can afford it a little more to burn first rounders when you find your franchise QB.  That said, Harvin was worth a 2 and a 4 - and Spielman really does not want to make a habit of siding with Ponder over his actually talented players.
 
2013-03-11 09:26:28 PM  

puffy999: 49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.


Seahawks gave up too much considering Harvin was being actively shopped.  Frankly, the whole trade baffles me from Seattle's perspective.  A 1/4/7 for an undersized guy that's got a history of injury issues, attitude issues, and doesn't seem like the kind of player that will age well...maybe their WR situation is more desperate than I thought (admittedly not a serious Seahawks follower).  Plus Harvin will eat cap space going forward when you could've had a 1st rounder on the rookie pay scale.

What am I missing?
 
2013-03-11 09:26:36 PM  
I'm glad the 49ers took a stab at getting one of the older Ravens players.
 
2013-03-11 09:27:05 PM  

mikaloyd: Son of a Biatch!

As someone who despises the niners this is bad news

 
2013-03-11 09:28:46 PM  

UNC_Samurai: You can afford it a little more to burn first rounders when you find your franchise QB.


If Harvin stays healthy, with that group around him, he'll probably be worth it.
 
2013-03-11 09:34:20 PM  
The Ravens had reportedly asked Boldin to take a pay cut to help the team with its salary-cap situation. 

Yeah, ask your lead receiver to take a pay cut so that you can give Joe Flacco the largest NFL contract ever...
 
2013-03-11 09:34:24 PM  

regindyn: Seahawks gave up too much considering Harvin was being actively shopped. Frankly, the whole trade baffles me from Seattle's perspective. A 1/4/7 for an undersized guy that's got a history of injury issues, attitude issues, and doesn't seem like the kind of player that will age well...maybe their WR situation is more desperate than I thought (admittedly not a serious Seahawks follower). Plus Harvin will eat cap space going forward when you could've had a 1st rounder on the rookie pay scale.

What am I missing?


Their offense could be the most dynamic in the NFL with Wilson, Lynch, Harvin, Rice, and Tate on the field, because they could literally run an option where the ball could go to any single one of those players (and they'd probably put Harvin in the backfield from time to time). Harvin could spell Washington returning punts and kicks.

However, I think they needed a bit more size outside, not a better explosive athlete. And all of the concerns regarding injury and attitude are valid.
 
2013-03-11 09:47:09 PM  

mikaloyd: Son of a Biatch!

As someone who despises the niners this is bad news


This, but Boldin has said he'd rather retire than play anywhere else. Let's see if he stands by that.
 
2013-03-11 09:47:59 PM  
This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.
 
2013-03-11 09:55:12 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.


I'm finding it hard to fault them for the Flacco contract. Even throwing aside the Super Bowl win, who else were they going to get even remotely as good? And I'm sure some other QB will sign for more in the not-too-distant future. Looking at you, Post-2014 Aaron Rodgers.
 
2013-03-11 10:05:04 PM  

FreakinB: Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.

I'm finding it hard to fault them for the Flacco contract. Even throwing aside the Super Bowl win, who else were they going to get even remotely as good? And I'm sure some other QB will sign for more in the not-too-distant future. Looking at you, Post-2014 Aaron Rodgers.


That's not the point. This (painfully admittedly) awesome offseason notwithstanding, he's getting all-time record money for what has been a decent but not exactly stellar career. They overpaid big time, and for what, his performance over the last 6 weeks of the season? They could have done worse, they probably couldn't have done better, but still, Flacco getting a bigger contract than Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Drew Brees/a few others? Objectively he's not even the best quarterback in his division. Baltimore hamstrung themselves for a long time, and this is the first fallout from that.

Of course, I'm perfectly happy with that. I hope they win maybe 4 games a year for the remainder of their existence. That's probably too much to hope for, but if Torrey Smith fades or it is shown that his play looked good because teams were afraid of Boldin they're in big trouble. They'll put 8 in the box and eat Ray Rice alive while Succo throws dropped pass after dropped pass to lousy receivers because that's all they can afford.

It remains to be seen how it all pans out, but right now I'm smiling.
 
2013-03-11 10:06:07 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This (painfully admittedly) awesome offseason postseason notwithstanding

...

FTFM.
 
2013-03-11 10:08:35 PM  
I'm glad the Steelers don't have to play him twice a year anymore.
 
2013-03-11 10:17:55 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: FreakinB: Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.

I'm finding it hard to fault them for the Flacco contract. Even throwing aside the Super Bowl win, who else were they going to get even remotely as good? And I'm sure some other QB will sign for more in the not-too-distant future. Looking at you, Post-2014 Aaron Rodgers.

That's not the point. This (painfully admittedly) awesome offseason notwithstanding, he's getting all-time record money for what has been a decent but not exactly stellar career. They overpaid big time, and for what, his performance over the last 6 weeks of the season? They could have done worse, they probably couldn't have done better, but still, Flacco getting a bigger contract than Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Drew Brees/a few others? Objectively he's not even the best quarterback in his division. Baltimore hamstrung themselves for a long time, and this is the first fallout from that.


I think it is the point though. Flacco had all the leverage. The downgrade from him to Alex Smith (the next-best available guy) is pretty big. And if you miss on Smith you're left with...what? Matt Cassel? Matt Barkley? Flacco may not be at the head of the QB class but he's at the very least above-average, which is a *lot* more than you can say for any of his potential replacements. And QB's are always going to be on a different scale salary-wise than other positions. It really was the perfect storm for Flacco, but I don't see what else the Ravens could have done.
 
2013-03-11 10:22:27 PM  

puffy999: 49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.


Before this year, he missed 3 games in 3 years.  Everyone spouting off about injury prone needs to do some goddamn fact checking.
 
2013-03-11 10:36:11 PM  
Leach will probably be another casualty, which I believe would put them around $20 million under the cap. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Ravens make a run at Amendola, depending on how things shake out with his contract demands. Jake Long could be a FA target too.

The Ravens will be fine. Ozzie's built two Superbowl-winning teams in his tenure. He knows what he's doing.
 
2013-03-11 10:52:39 PM  

Fade2black: puffy999: 49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.

Before this year, he missed 3 games in 3 years.  Everyone spouting off about injury prone needs to do some goddamn fact checking.


no dog in the fight, but I'll question that stat. How many games did he not finish? How many times did he go to the sideline with some sort of injury and missed a series or more, and how often was he not playing at 100%? Not sure if anything other than direct observation measures that, but when considering injury risk, I would measure that.

If he has to come out for a series or three every game, I would consider that injury prone.
 
2013-03-11 11:00:03 PM  

CaptainCampbell: Leach will probably be another casualty, which I believe would put them around $20 million under the cap. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Ravens make a run at Amendola, depending on how things shake out with his contract demands. Jake Long could be a FA target too.

The Ravens will be fine. Ozzie's built two Superbowl-winning teams in his tenure. He knows what he's doing.


If they were smart, they'd find a way to hold onto Leach. As the past few seasons have shown, a good fullback is still a big part of an elite run game, and he is likely the best lead blocker in the league right now.
 
2013-03-11 11:02:46 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.


The thing is, the contract is not overpaying him. If they had franchised him (which they would have had to do if they hadn't signed him) would have counted about $15M against the cap this year. This contract lowers his cap numbers over the first 3 years to $6.8M in 2013, $14.8M in 2014 and $14.55M in 2015. The 2013 number is a bargain and the 2014 and 2015 numbers are comparable to other QBs. Most likely the contract will be restructured or extended after 2015 unless he does in fact stink up the joint in which case they will cut him because at that point the dead money is less than the cap hit.

As a Ravens fan I am fine with the contract. After the dozen years of QB carousel here I will take Flacco and his basically 3 year deal. I do think he will continue to improve because I think for the last 2 seasons his relationship w/Cameron has hindered his performance. I am curious to see what he does in a full season w/Caldwell as the OC since the offense was much better w/him running it.

As far as Boldin, I look at this pragmatically. This is no different than when they cut Heap a couple of years ago. They had drafted 2 tight ends to replace him and they needed to see if they would sink or swim. Two years ago they drafted Tandon Doss specifically because Flacco liked him and how he played. He is an over the middle slot receiver. The Ravens need to see if he is the next man up and if not he is gone and they move on. Don't forget a healthy Pitta and Dickson can cause havoc in the middle of the field like Boldin did. To me this is no different than what the Steepers and Pats do every year, which is cut/trade guys who are popular but are to the FO not worth the current cap number. Ozzie Newsome said that he would not let the team repeat what they did after winning SB XXXV and overpay to keep a team together when it will throw them into salary cap hell down the road.

If the Ravens had not signed Flacco to that contract someone else would have (the Chiefs could have waited on the Alex Smith trade and the Browns have plenty of cap room and a need at QB since they are apparently not sold on Weeden). The team did what it had to do. I think they will be able to re-sign Ellerbe and Reed, but Kruger will be gone to the highest bidder, who will be overpaying for him. He looks like another classic "flame out when he leaves Baltimore" defender to me. Time will tell.

As a Steelers fan I think you should be more worried about Roethlisberger and that contract of his. He restructured again to give them some relief but as far as I know they are still against the wall on the 2013 cap and those restructured deals will come back and bite a team in the ass if they aren't careful. By 2014 your guys might be in a lot worse place than my guys are right now.
 
2013-03-11 11:10:50 PM  

msupf: CaptainCampbell: Leach will probably be another casualty, which I believe would put them around $20 million under the cap. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Ravens make a run at Amendola, depending on how things shake out with his contract demands. Jake Long could be a FA target too.

The Ravens will be fine. Ozzie's built two Superbowl-winning teams in his tenure. He knows what he's doing.

If they were smart, they'd find a way to hold onto Leach. As the past few seasons have shown, a good fullback is still a big part of an elite run game, and he is likely the best lead blocker in the league right now.


I came here to say this.  Losing Leach would have a significant impact on Rice's running game.
 
2013-03-11 11:16:15 PM  
Ed Reed to the Niners, being flitted about here and there.
 
2013-03-11 11:27:56 PM  

neuroflare: mikaloyd: Son of a Biatch!

As someone who despises the niners this is bad news


...except for the part where I despise the Ravens even more.
 
2013-03-11 11:41:05 PM  
And now the Arizona Cardinals--the team traded him away for late-round draft picks that never amounted to anything--will get to play against him twice a year.
 
2013-03-11 11:42:25 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.


Flacco's cap hit next year 6.8mil
Boldin's cap hit next year 7.1mil
 
2013-03-11 11:43:49 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: FreakinB: Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.

I'm finding it hard to fault them for the Flacco contract. Even throwing aside the Super Bowl win, who else were they going to get even remotely as good? And I'm sure some other QB will sign for more in the not-too-distant future. Looking at you, Post-2014 Aaron Rodgers.

That's not the point. This (painfully admittedly) awesome offseason notwithstanding, he's getting all-time record money for what has been a decent but not exactly stellar career. They overpaid big time, and for what, his performance over the last 6 weeks of the season? They could have done worse, they probably couldn't have done better, but still, Flacco getting a bigger contract than Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Drew Brees/a few others? Objectively he's not even the best quarterback in his division. Baltimore hamstrung themselves for a long time, and this is the first fallout from that.

Of course, I'm perfectly happy with that. I hope they win maybe 4 games a year for the remainder of their existence. That's probably too much to hope for, but if Torrey Smith fades or it is shown that his play looked good because teams were afraid of Boldin they're in big trouble. They'll put 8 in the box and eat Ray Rice alive while Succo throws dropped pass after dropped pass to lousy receivers because that's all they can afford.

It remains to be seen how it all pans out, but right now I'm smiling.


Yeah cause the Steelers off season looks so much better...
 
2013-03-11 11:47:00 PM  

FreakinB: Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

I'm loving this.

I'm finding it hard to fault them for the Flacco contract. Even throwing aside the Super Bowl win, who else were they going to get even remotely as good? And I'm sure some other QB will sign for more in the not-too-distant future. Looking at you, Post-2014 Aaron Rodgers.


Trent Dilfer.
 
2013-03-11 11:56:49 PM  

puffy999: regindyn: Seahawks gave up too much considering Harvin was being actively shopped. Frankly, the whole trade baffles me from Seattle's perspective. A 1/4/7 for an undersized guy that's got a history of injury issues, attitude issues, and doesn't seem like the kind of player that will age well...maybe their WR situation is more desperate than I thought (admittedly not a serious Seahawks follower). Plus Harvin will eat cap space going forward when you could've had a 1st rounder on the rookie pay scale.

What am I missing?

Their offense could be the most dynamic in the NFL with Wilson, Lynch, Harvin, Rice, and Tate on the field...


DOUG BALDWIN

/everyone forgets Baldwin
//big game clutch receiver
///GO HAWKS
 
2013-03-12 12:04:00 AM  
What's the NFL axiom? It's better to lose a player a year too early than a year too late? Boldin and Reed are a year or two away from retirement and they've got their rings and looking to maximize remaining earnings. Ravens aren't dummies. They've got 12 draft picks now.
 
2013-03-12 12:06:32 AM  
That said, if the Ravens lose Reed, I hope he comes back to them as a secondary coach. He'll be a great one.
 
2013-03-12 12:28:32 AM  

msupf: Fade2black: puffy999: 49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.

Before this year, he missed 3 games in 3 years.  Everyone spouting off about injury prone needs to do some goddamn fact checking.

no dog in the fight, but I'll question that stat. How many games did he not finish? How many times did he go to the sideline with some sort of injury and missed a series or more, and how often was he not playing at 100%?


The answer to those questions is "more than a couple times." He's an absolute beast when he's healthy, but a few years ago he and Randy Moss were teammates for about 4 weeks and I wonder if some of Randy's attitude rubbed off on Percy.
 
2013-03-12 01:08:19 AM  
Seahawk fan.

I say meh to this trade. Boldin replaces Moss who was slow and had great hands when he wanted to. Boldin is slow and has great hands. It's an upgrade but not a huge one.

As for the Seahawks getting Harvin I am ecstatic. I am Ok with them giving away a 1st rounder for him too. Not that they care what I think. PCJS seem to do just find finding talent in the later rounds and they still retain I believe 9 picks for this year's draft.

The Rams have a ton f draft picks from the RGIII trade.

The Cards are the Cards.

Love how tough the NFC West is going to be next year.
 
2013-03-12 01:25:48 AM  

Triumph: That said, if the Ravens lose Reed, I hope he comes back to them as a secondary coach. He'll be a great one.


Reed would more likely be a high school / college coach.  He prefers working with kids from what I've noticed.
 
2013-03-12 02:13:47 AM  

Fade2black: Before this year, he missed 3 games in 3 years. Everyone spouting off about injury prone needs to do some goddamn fact checking.


He's young and plays too hard, is smaller than Reggie Bush, he has headaches, and he has attitude problems.

So, yeah, I doubt he plays inubianmes this season.
 
2013-03-12 02:31:21 AM  
WTF
 
2013-03-12 02:33:44 AM  
I love Boldin and I hate to see him go, but I felt the same about Heap and I think that played in our favor. Im also okay with Reed going. We need to get younger or we're going to start looking like the Steelers.
 
2013-03-12 06:47:31 AM  

regindyn: puffy999: 49ers scored. I think Seattle... I don't know, I like Harvin, but I worry that the guy's going to have injury troubles for his career, and they gave up a first rounder and change for him.

Seahawks gave up too much considering Harvin was being actively shopped.  Frankly, the whole trade baffles me from Seattle's perspective.  A 1/4/7 for an undersized guy that's got a history of injury issues, attitude issues, and doesn't seem like the kind of player that will age well...maybe their WR situation is more desperate than I thought (admittedly not a serious Seahawks follower).  Plus Harvin will eat cap space going forward when you could've had a 1st rounder on the rookie pay scale.

What am I missing?


I'm not sure where this legend came from: Harvin only missed three games in his first three years.
 
2013-03-12 08:14:18 AM  
I also have to say I wonder where Harvin's "bad attitude" legend came from.  Not to get too controversial, but I notice that it is usually the black players who have "attitude."  Think about it: when was the last time a white player was depicted in the media as being "bad"?  All I can think of is Peyton Hillis, but he never had the "bad attitude" tag placed on him; the media just portrayed him as a bit self-centered and a dullard.  They went out of their way to have his friends give interviews talking about what a great guy he was, etc.

 It strikes me as ironic: when Favre worked with Childress, he was, by all reports, an absolute dick.  He yelled at Childress, he changed Childress's plays, he openly criticized him.  Yet Harvin criticizes Childress, and he becomes a "bad" guy.  I wonder ...
 
2013-03-12 09:08:58 AM  
As a 49ers fan, I'm all for this. He's going to give more production than a 6th round pick. And he's good insurance if Manningham doesn't come back well or Jenkins doesn't develop. And if he's not working out by the end of training camp, there won't be a cap hit if he's cut. I don't see this as any different from the Brandon Jacobs signing last year.
 
2013-03-12 09:17:52 AM  

puffy999: UNC_Samurai: You can afford it a little more to burn first rounders when you find your franchise QB.

If Harvin stays healthy, with that group around him, he'll probably be worth it.


Seems like Minnesota were just not willing to deal with the headache.
 
2013-03-12 09:28:39 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: It strikes me as ironic: when Favre worked with Childress, he was, by all reports, an absolute dick.  He yelled at Childress, he changed Childress's plays, he openly criticized him.  Yet Harvin criticizes Childress, and he becomes a "bad" guy.  I wonder ...


Yup. Attitude is really dependent on the boss. In my military days, I was reprimanded for having a "bad attitude" when I had a dumbass boss who ordered me to do dumb sh*t that not only was dumb sh*t, it was dumb sh*t that literally didn't have to be done by anybody and wouldn't have improved anything by having been done. So I have a bad attitude because I told her it was stupid.

Then, when I've had competent bosses, I'm considered one of the best workers they've had.

Gotta love the Percy Harvin target depth stats. With Favre: 9.7, 9.0 yards downfield. With Ponder: 5.7, 4.1 yards downfield. FFS, man, let him run SOMEthing that isn't a slant/screen.

regindyn: Frankly, the whole trade baffles me from Seattle's perspective.  A 1/4/7 for an undersized guy that's got a history of injury issues, attitude issues, and doesn't seem like the kind of player that will age well...maybe their WR situation is more desperate than I thought (admittedly not a serious Seahawks follower).  Plus Harvin will eat cap space going forward when you could've had a 1st rounder on the rookie pay scale.


a) cap space is not a concern this year - it's better to bring someone in and frontload the cap space now, rather than continue to have everyone develop and have to pay everyone all at once. After this year, a few big contracts come off the books and we can renegotiate or seek out value for those positions while paying the talent we've developed.
b) we're in a championship window right now; we were the top-rated team for the year in advanced statistics; imagine if we had a WR that was consistently open the way Harvin is
c) Harvin is 24 years old; just because he's been in the league for four years doesn't mean he's old - he's the same age as many people who will be drafted, but has proven himself in the NFL.
d) "attitude problems" are often horsesh*t, especially if they're confined within a locker room. We trust our coaching staff.
e) for all the success we've had in the draft, the first round hasn't been a place where we've gotten the most production. If we drafted, we were probably going to take Tavon Austin, who is even smaller and is considered a "poor man's" Percy Harvin. So why not just get the real thing?
f) our WR situation has been a weak point of the team for the whole time we've been in the NFC.
 
2013-03-12 09:32:12 AM  
Oh, and as for the headaches:

That's part of his supposed "attitude problem," his coach thought he was faking headaches to get out of things. So there are two lines of thought with this:

a) he WAS faking migraines, which means that the attitude problems are legitimate (and the headaches might magically disappear once he's here), OR
b) he WASN'T faking migraines, which means that Frazier is a dick and the "attitude problems" not only may not be as serious as people are thinking, but might be justified.

So either way, the attitude/injury issues probably aren't as great as people are making them out to be.

/when AD reacts the way he did on Twitter, seems like Harvin wasn't really the problem he was made out to be
 
2013-03-12 09:36:44 AM  

SuperChuck: As a 49ers fan, I'm all for this. He's going to give more production than a 6th round pick. And he's good insurance if Manningham doesn't come back well or Jenkins doesn't develop. And if he's not working out by the end of training camp, there won't be a cap hit if he's cut. I don't see this as any different from the Brandon Jacobs signing last year.


When I heard about this trade, my inner sports fan wept - Boldin is basically The Guy you want as WR. He's big, he catches EVERYTHING (Ev-a-ree-thang? Ev-a-ree-thang.), and he's not sub-4.4 speed, but he's fast enough that you can't cover him with a nickel-back and a good enough route-runner that single-coverage won't work for long. Worth more than a 6th-rounder.

Thing is, how many more elite years does Boldin have? He was in the Superbowl 4 years ago (3 seasons) and the upcoming year will be Year 11 of his career (he was ROY in 03). So sure, this season, a 6th-rounder likely means jack, but what about next season? The season after?

Baltimore may be losing the battle to win the war, and with the amount of talent they have (assuming Boldin's real value wasn't in stealing the defense's focus, making everyone else look good), they can plug in someone else's #2 or #3 guy, elevate Torrey Smith to #1 (which is a reach for him at this point), and use Pitta/Dickson as a second slot guy (with Doss or whoever else - Pitta's basically a slow slot receiver anyway).

// or is this the story I tell myself as a Ravens fan to make myself feel better?
 
2013-03-12 09:46:39 AM  

Dr Dreidel: SuperChuck: As a 49ers fan, I'm all for this. He's going to give more production than a 6th round pick. And he's good insurance if Manningham doesn't come back well or Jenkins doesn't develop. And if he's not working out by the end of training camp, there won't be a cap hit if he's cut. I don't see this as any different from the Brandon Jacobs signing last year.

When I heard about this trade, my inner sports fan wept - Boldin is basically The Guy you want as WR. He's big, he catches EVERYTHING (Ev-a-ree-thang? Ev-a-ree-thang.), and he's not sub-4.4 speed, but he's fast enough that you can't cover him with a nickel-back and a good enough route-runner that single-coverage won't work for long. Worth more than a 6th-rounder.

Thing is, how many more elite years does Boldin have? He was in the Superbowl 4 years ago (3 seasons) and the upcoming year will be Year 11 of his career (he was ROY in 03). So sure, this season, a 6th-rounder likely means jack, but what about next season? The season after?

Baltimore may be losing the battle to win the war, and with the amount of talent they have (assuming Boldin's real value wasn't in stealing the defense's focus, making everyone else look good), they can plug in someone else's #2 or #3 guy, elevate Torrey Smith to #1 (which is a reach for him at this point), and use Pitta/Dickson as a second slot guy (with Doss or whoever else - Pitta's basically a slow slot receiver anyway).

// or is this the story I tell myself as a Ravens fan to make myself feel better?


I don't think Boldin has any elite years left. Much like Flacco, he had a pretty good regular season and a lights out post-season. And for either the Ravens or the 49ers, I think that's good enough. Like you said, the great thing about Boldin is he catches everything. Even if he's covered. He may not get a lot of separation, but he doesn't need it. And I also think Crabtree could benefit from having another veteran around to learn from. He won't learn the same things from Boldin that he got from Moss.
 
2013-03-12 10:03:56 AM  

SuperChuck: Much like Flacco, he had a pretty good regular season and a lights out post-season.


Your hate for Flacco blinds you to the fact that even though he has some craptastic games, his seasons are fairly reliable. He throws fewer INTs than Eli Manning and the team's offense hasn't been the liability it was in the Kyle Boller years. Not gaudy numbers, but he's consistent (for example, Flacco's INTs by year: 12, 12, 10, 12, 10) and improving. Look at all the records he has in 5 years (ignoring the postseason ones from this year only, that's still impressive. But for the passing numbers, he looks like Dan Marino).

He may not be worth 6/120, but he's worth Top-5 money (or just about. Can you name 5 unquestionably better QBs? Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Brees and...?).

// I'm sure someone will come along with suggestions, but how many of them have the postseason record Flacco does?
// and here come the "it's only the guys around him!" cadre - because Brady never had a Wes Welker or Deon Branch or Tedy Bruschi, etc
 
2013-03-12 10:08:31 AM  

FreakinB: I know how NFL trades generally work, but I still find it hard to believe that the Ravens couldn't get more than a 6th rounder for Boldin.


It's actually not as bad a deal as it looks at first. The Ravens couldn't afford Boldin's salary and were going to cut him. The 49er's essentially gave a 6th to jump to the top of the waiver wire.
 
2013-03-12 10:10:40 AM  

Dr Dreidel: SuperChuck: Much like Flacco, he had a pretty good regular season and a lights out post-season.

Your hate for Flacco blinds you to the fact that even though he has some craptastic games, his seasons are fairly reliable. He throws fewer INTs than Eli Manning and the team's offense hasn't been the liability it was in the Kyle Boller years. Not gaudy numbers, but he's consistent (for example, Flacco's INTs by year: 12, 12, 10, 12, 10) and improving. Look at all the records he has in 5 years (ignoring the postseason ones from this year only, that's still impressive. But for the passing numbers, he looks like Dan Marino).

He may not be worth 6/120, but he's worth Top-5 money (or just about. Can you name 5 unquestionably better QBs? Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Brees and...?).

// I'm sure someone will come along with suggestions, but how many of them have the postseason record Flacco does?
// and here come the "it's only the guys around him!" cadre - because Brady never had a Wes Welker or Deon Branch or Tedy Bruschi, etc


Whoa, hang on. I've got no hate for Flacco. You know, aside from the fact that my team lost to him in the super bowl. I said he had a pretty good year. Was that wrong? It's not like he was MVP level in the regular season.

It is rather silly for you to say he looks like Dan Marino except for his passing stats. That's like saying a RB looks like Adrian Peterson except for the rushing stats.
 
2013-03-12 10:12:17 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Look at all the records he has in 5 years (ignoring the postseason ones from this year only, that's still impressive. But for the passing numbers, he looks like Dan Marino).


Again, his records: Starts starts starts wins wins wins, none of which are passing numbers. The only impressive numbers that are actually passing numbers are the postseason ones from this year only. Unless you think Ravens records count. But beating out Kyle Boller, Troy Smith, Trent Dilfer, Elvis Grbac, decrepit Steve McNair, et al. isn't exactly impressing anyone.

He's Eli Manning with fewer INTs - a slightly above-average QB who occasionally kills it in the postseason.
 
2013-03-12 10:16:07 AM  

SuperChuck: It is rather silly for you to say he looks like Dan Marino except for his passing stats.


Especially considering he's far more like the polar opposite of Dan Marino. (All he has are wins and postseason success; all Marino did was post impressive regular season stats and get pasted in the playoffs.)

/yeesh, Marino threw no fewer than two picks in each of his playoff exits (except 1994 against the Chargers...where the Dolphins blew a 21-6 halftime lead)
 
2013-03-12 10:25:53 AM  

IAmRight: SuperChuck: It is rather silly for you to say he looks like Dan Marino except for his passing stats.

Especially considering he's far more like the polar opposite of Dan Marino. (All he has are wins and postseason success; all Marino did was post impressive regular season stats and get pasted in the playoffs.)

/yeesh, Marino threw no fewer than two picks in each of his playoff exits (except 1994 against the Chargers...where the Dolphins blew a 21-6 halftime lead)


So Matt Ryan is Dan Marino, Flacco is Eli Manning with fewer INTs. I'll take it!
 
2013-03-12 10:28:52 AM  

SuperChuck: It is rather silly for you to say he looks like Dan Marino except for his passing stats. That's like saying a RB looks like Adrian Peterson except for the rushing stats.


I mean that, in terms of team/playoff wins, he looks like Marino. Their careers are arcing the same way through their first 5 years (though Flacco's arc is currently higher, and I hope he also doesn't go 0-for-the-postseason for the rest of his career), not that they're the same type of QB.

IAmRight: Again, his records: Starts starts starts wins wins wins, none of which are passing numbers. The only impressive numbers that are actually passing numbers are the postseason ones from this year only. Unless you think Ravens records count. But beating out Kyle Boller, Troy Smith, Trent Dilfer, Elvis Grbac, decrepit Steve McNair, et al. isn't exactly impressing anyone.

He's Eli Manning with fewer INTs - a slightly above-average QB who occasionally kills it in the postseason.


Name another QB who hasn't missed a start in 5 years - hell, name another QB who's been with the same team for 5 years. You're coming up with Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Eli Manning; and I've already explained where I think he fits in.

Yes, this postseason was particularly impressive, but I'm trying to point out that it almost looks inevitable after the postseasons Flacco has had - winning at least one every year, not crapping the bed (apart from the 9-23/165 game, and I think that was his first one). Compare Flacco to Matty Ice in the playoffs (and then remember that the AFC North has the Steelers, and for a few of Flacco's 5 years, a non-retarded Bengals team, compared with the NFC South which is all Saints/Falcons) - it's clear that Flacco's better than him, even though Ryan puts up gaudier numbers per game and is on a "better" team (one that looks better on paper).

Flacco is an above-average QB who is rarely hurt (I don't wanna say "never", but so far, he hasn't been) and consistently MAKES and then PERFORMS WELL in the postseason (going from a low of that 9-23 game early on to the 11TD/0INT, 3 straight 3TD games performance this year).

// making the postseason 4 straight years should count for far more than winning 4 games in one postseason
 
2013-03-12 10:38:05 AM  
Eh...my two cents (and apologies to anyone who might have thought I was dead.  I just got pretty busy):

Losing Boldin sucks, but it's just a reality of having to balance the budget under the salary cap.  The front office obviously wanted to keep him, but just couldn't afford to pay $6 million to a 32 year-old receiver whose skill set basically makes him a glorified tight end.  The Flacco deal had nothing to do with that--whatever your opinions on whether he's worth the (fictional) amount of money he's currently scheduled to earn over the next 6 seasons, the deal saved the Ravens a ton of space under this year's cap vs. having to franchise Flacco.  Losing Boldin has much more to do with the team wanting to keep Ellerbe (in particular) and possibly having a shot at retaining a Paul Kruger, Ed Reed, or Bryant McKinnie.  Regarding "only" getting a 6th round pick for him, they weren't going to get anything if they simply cut him.

Even if Newsome can't bring in one of the better-known free agent wide receivers, this doesn't kill us.  You've still got Torrey lined up outside, Pitta and Dickson (probably) on the inside, Ray Rice out of the backfield, and a slew of talented young guys like Tandon Doss and Laquan Williams waiting in the wings.  Besides which, look at Jacoby Jones...who on Earth thought he was going to play such a huge role in this team's success when they signed him last offseason?

The Niners had plenty of extra draft picks & the space under the cap to afford this deal, and Boldin still has at least a few seasons of solid contributions to make to any team.  Not sure how long it will take for Boldin to build up the amount of trust he had from Flacco & start getting those balls thrown into tight coverage again, but he does at least go to another championship contender where he will play a larger role than just providing veteran leadership.  So it really does appear to be a win/win scenario.

Of course, I reserve the right to alter any of these arguments should the Ravens end up struggling without him in the lineup. ;)
 
2013-03-12 10:45:06 AM  
Losing Percy doesn't hurt if they can get a WR FA like Mike Wallace. If not, then it will hurt.

Like I said, Harvin wasn't going to be traded for anything less than 1st+. People who were dreaming about 2nd round picks for him need to go back to football GM school.
 
2013-03-12 10:51:51 AM  

Dr Dreidel: making the postseason 4 straight years should count for far more than winning 4 games in one postseason


Okay, as a firm supporter of Flacco & everything he brings to the table for the Ravens, this argument is just silly.  Joe Flacco didn't make the playoffs for five straight seasons (nor win at least one playoff game in each one), the Baltimore Ravens did.  While that likely would not have been the case had Kyle Boller still been under center during that time frame, it most certainly would have with a Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, or [insert mid-tier starting quarterback here] taking snaps.  Flacco is legitimately an above-average starting quarterback in this league, which is something we've never really had in Baltimore before him (at least, not unless you go back to the Unitas years), but the team's success is exactly that.

That said, the deal was obviously going to happen.  Ozzy Newsome could not afford not to keep him given Flacco's track record & the fact that he's just now entering what should be the prime of his career, and the total amount of money in the contract is entirely incidental as it will be restructured after 3 seasons anyway.  What it did was guarantee that the Ravens will keep the best quarterback they've had in their short existence for the foreseeable future, and will free up enough cap space this season to lock up other young contributors.  So long as Joe & his agent were willing to backload the deal, they could've insisted on $200 million and got it...because the only way they'll actually see the majority of that money is if the cap number unexpectedly balloons in the latter half of this decade.
 
2013-03-12 11:04:52 AM  

Dr Dreidel: it's clear that Flacco's better than him, even though Ryan puts up gaudier numbers per game and is on a "better" team (one that looks better on paper).


In fairness, I wouldn't say Ryan's great either. He definitely has the benefit of holy-sh*t-good targets.

/J. Jones, R. White, AND Tony G...and he plays virtually all his games indoors? Should be putting up 5,000-yard seasons regularly.

Dr Dreidel: // making the postseason 4 straight years should count for far more than winning 4 games in one postseason


The AFC is pretty weak overall, though, and has been for years. It's basically Brady Team, Manning Team, two AFCN teams, whoever wins the other division, and whichever team doesn't crap the bed (or whichever team an actual playoff team would rather face, so that they can tank a game in order to determine their opponent) that makes the playoffs.

I'd also point out that it's silly to act as though the NFC South is just Saints/Falcons but to throw in the Bengals as though they're just an inconsistent team. The Bucs and Panthers have both had at least one 10-win season in the past five years.

In fact, the AFCN outside of Baltimore is 7 games worse than the NFCS outside of Atlanta over the past five years. Cincinnati is roughly equivalent to Carolina over that span.
 
2013-03-12 11:11:23 AM  

Harv72b: Joe Flacco didn't make the playoffs for five straight seasons (nor win at least one playoff game in each one), the Baltimore Ravens did. While that likely would not have been the case had Kyle Boller still been under center during that time frame, it most certainly would have with a Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, or [insert mid-tier starting quarterback here] taking snaps. Flacco is legitimately an above-average starting quarterback in this league, which is something we've never really had in Baltimore before him (at least, not unless you go back to the Unitas years), but the team's success is exactly that.


And yet, no QB had ever done it before. Not Brady or Manning, not Marino or Montana, not any of those guys you mentioned (the only one with a stat like that is that only Matt Ryan and Flacco have started all 16 games their rookie season and made the playoffs - Flacco is the only one to have won a postseason game after that).

It's not 100% Flacco, but take him out of the equation, and you have...Matt Ryan's first year - a good year, but not Flacco's. If Tom Brady had been drafted by the Ravens in 2008, we'd be having a different discussion. I can't argue against every hypothetical, I can only point out that if it was so easy to do, someone other than Flacco would have done it already.

// I could say the same thing about Ray Rice
// Flacco did win those games; not by himself, obviously, but he does get a win on his record (or is he 0-0?)
 
2013-03-12 11:17:44 AM  

IAmRight: Dr Dreidel: // making the postseason 4 straight years should count for far more than winning 4 games in one postseason

The AFC is pretty weak overall, though, and has been for years. It's basically Brady Team, Manning Team, two AFCN teams, whoever wins the other division, and whichever team doesn't crap the bed


But when was the last time Brady/Manning made 4 straight postseasons and (their team) won at least one game in each? (It may have happened, but certainly not in their first 5 years - hell, after the 2001 SuperBowl, the Pats missed the playoffs. The Colts were bounced in the WC round at least once.)

Flacco ain't bulletproof, and he's not a first-ballot Hall of Famer (yet). He's been lucky to be on a good team, but has been good enough to not fark it up.

I guess we're arguing over how much is skill vs how much is luck?
 
2013-03-12 11:19:48 AM  

Dr Dreidel: He may not be worth 6/120, but he's worth Top-5 money (or just about. Can you name 5 unquestionably better QBs? Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Brees and...?).


Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson and RGIII. Russell and RGII are only rookies, but I'd rather them lead my team than Flacco. Matt Ryan has 127 TDs, 60 INTs, 62.7 CMP% and 90.9 quarterback rating for his career. Roethlisberger has 191 TDS, 108 INTs, 63.1 CMP%, and a 92.7 quarterback rating for his career. He has gotten his team to the superbowl 3 times and won 2 of them. Flacco has 102 TDs, 56 INTs,  60.5 CMP% and a 86.3 quarterback rating for his career.

Flacco is a serviceable quarterback with one impeccable post season run. But it is not difficult to name 5 quarterbacks who are better.
 
2013-03-12 11:33:50 AM  

facisto: Dr Dreidel: He may not be worth 6/120, but he's worth Top-5 money (or just about. Can you name 5 unquestionably better QBs? Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Brees and...?).

Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson and RGIII. Russell and RGII are only rookies, but I'd rather them lead my team than Flacco. Matt Ryan has 127 TDs, 60 INTs, 62.7 CMP% and 90.9 quarterback rating for his career. Roethlisberger has 191 TDS, 108 INTs, 63.1 CMP%, and a 92.7 quarterback rating for his career. He has gotten his team to the superbowl 3 times and won 2 of them. Flacco has 102 TDs, 56 INTs,  60.5 CMP% and a 86.3 quarterback rating for his career.

Flacco is a serviceable quarterback with one impeccable post season run. But it is not difficult to name 5 quarterbacks who are better.


He's had at least two very good post-seasons - last years AFC Championship run he put up solid stats and had better numbers than Brady in Foxborough. I believe he was 4 TDs and a pick in two games. (With a dropped 5th that would have gotten him to the superbowl.)

Ryan's playoff stats are atrocious outside of the first half of the NFC Champ games.
 
2013-03-12 11:34:47 AM  

Dr Dreidel: But when was the last time Brady/Manning made 4 straight postseasons and (their team) won at least one game in each? (It may have happened, but certainly not in their first 5 years - hell, after the 2001 SuperBowl, the Pats missed the playoffs. The Colts were bounced in the WC round at least once.)



Sure...but I don't think that either the Colts or Pats would have won (33-14!) if Manning or Brady put up Flacco's line against the Pats in 2009:

4/10, 34 yds, INT

Holy lord.

Fun fact: After Flacco's first two full postseasons, here are his stats:

57/120 (47.5%), 660 yds (5.5 YPA!), 1 TD, 6 INT

...and he was 3-2.

I do appreciate that he learned what to do this last year. Each year, he'd thrown fewer INTs in the wins than he did in the losses (Year 1: 0 in wins; 3 in loss. Year 2: 1 in win, 2 in loss. Year 3: 0 in win, 1 in loss. Year 4: 0 in win, 1 in loss. Year 5: Just stop throwing them).
 
2013-03-12 11:40:09 AM  

IAmRight: Dr Dreidel: But when was the last time Brady/Manning made 4 straight postseasons and (their team) won at least one game in each? (It may have happened, but certainly not in their first 5 years - hell, after the 2001 SuperBowl, the Pats missed the playoffs. The Colts were bounced in the WC round at least once.)


Sure...but I don't think that either the Colts or Pats would have won (33-14!) if Manning or Brady put up Flacco's line against the Pats in 2009:

4/10, 34 yds, INT

Holy lord.

Fun fact: After Flacco's first two full postseasons, here are his stats:

57/120 (47.5%), 660 yds (5.5 YPA!), 1 TD, 6 INT

...and he was 3-2.

I do appreciate that he learned what to do this last year. Each year, he'd thrown fewer INTs in the wins than he did in the losses (Year 1: 0 in wins; 3 in loss. Year 2: 1 in win, 2 in loss. Year 3: 0 in win, 1 in loss. Year 4: 0 in win, 1 in loss. Year 5: Just stop throwing them).


And what are his post-season stats AFTER his first two years in the league?

18TDs to 2 INTs. That's 2.25 TDs per game. Across 8 games. That's a pretty solid stat line for any game.
 
2013-03-12 11:55:58 AM  

Deneb81: And what are his post-season stats AFTER his first two years in the league?

18TDs to 2 INTs. That's 2.25 TDs per game. Across 8 games. That's a pretty solid stat line for any game.


And that would be a much better point to make, rather than the whole "won a playoff game in each of his first five years."

/though 11 of those TDs were that one postseason run (hopefully it's an indication of things to come rather than an aberration, for your sake)
//Flacco being the highest-paid QB is less embarrassing than Sam Bradford having been the highest-paid for a couple years there, at least
 
2013-03-12 12:07:25 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: I also have to say I wonder where Harvin's "bad attitude" legend came from.  Not to get too controversial, but I notice that it is usually the black players who have "attitude."  Think about it: when was the last time a white player was depicted in the media as being "bad"?  All I can think of is Peyton Hillis, but he never had the "bad attitude" tag placed on him; the media just portrayed him as a bit self-centered and a dullard.  They went out of their way to have his friends give interviews talking about what a great guy he was, etc.


Jay Cutler.  Whiny, sulky loser.
 
2013-03-12 12:10:18 PM  

IAmRight: Flacco being the highest-paid QB is less embarrassing than Sam Bradford having been the highest-paid for a couple years there, at least


Talk about a dumb metric.

If everyone signed contracts at the same time, we could compare them. This contract was signed in a year when both FA and the draft don't have good QBs, right after he won a SB (and a damn fine postseason as well), and at the end of a run of 5 pretty good seasons.

Comparing, for example, a 2-year contract signed the season before the uncapped year to a 2-year deal signed before this season has several problems.
 
2013-03-12 12:30:45 PM  

chopit: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I also have to say I wonder where Harvin's "bad attitude" legend came from.  Not to get too controversial, but I notice that it is usually the black players who have "attitude."  Think about it: when was the last time a white player was depicted in the media as being "bad"?  All I can think of is Peyton Hillis, but he never had the "bad attitude" tag placed on him; the media just portrayed him as a bit self-centered and a dullard.  They went out of their way to have his friends give interviews talking about what a great guy he was, etc.

Jay Cutler.  Whiny, sulky loser.


I thought of Jay, but most of the complaints come from fans, not from the press.  Remember when everyone was all pissed when he didn't play in the NFC Champ game because he hurt his knee?  Remember how quickly the media worked to make sure everyone knew that he had a "legit" injury?  I just don't see a lot of black athletes getting that sort of coverage.  If they complain about their role, their a diva, if they talk about themselves, they're too mouthy, and so on.  I do sense some bias.
 
2013-03-12 01:23:10 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: I also have to say I wonder where Harvin's "bad attitude" legend came from.  Not to get too controversial, but I notice that it is usually the black players who have "attitude."  Think about it: when was the last time a white player was depicted in the media as being "bad"?  All I can think of is Peyton Hillis, but he never had the "bad attitude" tag placed on him; the media just portrayed him as a bit self-centered and a dullard.  They went out of their way to have his friends give interviews talking about what a great guy he was, etc.

 It strikes me as ironic: when Favre worked with Childress, he was, by all reports, an absolute dick.  He yelled at Childress, he changed Childress's plays, he openly criticized him.  Yet Harvin criticizes Childress, and he becomes a "bad" guy.  I wonder ...


In Favre's defense Childress sucked as a coach
 
2013-03-12 01:31:00 PM  

facisto: Dr Dreidel: He may not be worth 6/120, but he's worth Top-5 money (or just about. Can you name 5 unquestionably better QBs? Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Brees and...?).

Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson and RGIII. Russell and RGII are only rookies, but I'd rather them lead my team than Flacco. Matt Ryan has 127 TDs, 60 INTs, 62.7 CMP% and 90.9 quarterback rating for his career. Roethlisberger has 191 TDS, 108 INTs, 63.1 CMP%, and a 92.7 quarterback rating for his career. He has gotten his team to the superbowl 3 times and won 2 of them. Flacco has 102 TDs, 56 INTs,  60.5 CMP% and a 86.3 quarterback rating for his career.

Flacco is a serviceable quarterback with one impeccable post season run. But it is not difficult to name 5 quarterbacks who are better.


Roethlisberger has 4 years on Flacco, so if Ben stopped playing today Joe would have to average 22.25 TDs a year to equal Ben's career TDs. He's have to average 13 INTs to equal that stat. If he played about as consistently as he has the last 4 years he would most likely hit both of those targets. A slight uptick in completion percentage (which is feasible if not predictable in what will most likely be a new offense under Caldwell) and they are mirror images. As far as Super Bowls, if you look at it impartially SB XL could have gone either way (I am not going to go full Seahawk Tears Of Impotent Rage because I am not a Seahawks fan) and Ben was NOT the reason that they won that game (his stats were right up there w/Joe's 2009 playoff win against the Patriots). Taking Ben over Joe is not the slam dunk that you might think.

IAmRight: Deneb81: And what are his post-season stats AFTER his first two years in the league?

18TDs to 2 INTs. That's 2.25 TDs per game. Across 8 games. That's a pretty solid stat line for any game.

And that would be a much better point to make, rather than the whole "won a playoff game in each of his first five years."

/though 11 of those TDs were that one postseason run (hopefully it's an indication of things to come rather than an aberration, for your sake)
//Flacco being the highest-paid QB is less embarrassing than Sam Bradford having been the highest-paid for a couple years there, at least


11 TDs over 4 games is a little under 3 TDs a game. Not a gaudy stat and definitely something that can be improved on. Don't know if he will ever have another INT free postseason but a fan can dream, can't he?
 
2013-03-12 01:46:14 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: I thought of Jay, but most of the complaints come from fans and Rick Reilly, not from the press.

 
2013-03-12 01:55:20 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I thought of Jay, but most of the complaints come from fans and Rick Reilly, not from the press.


This, of course, after he lambasted the Broncos for giving up franchise QB Jay Cutler.

/Rick Reilly is a b*tch and several years behind the times on any story
 
2013-03-12 01:56:51 PM  

Deneb81: Matt Ryan has 127 TDs, 60 INTs, 62.7 CMP% and 90.9 quarterback rating for his career.


Matt Ryan's receivers since joining the league (50 or more receptions in a season):
Roddy White
Julio Jones
Tony Gonzalez
Michael Jenkins

Joe Flacco's receivers since joining the league (50 or more receptions in a season):
Derrick Mason
Ray Rice
Todd Heap
Anquan Boldin
Torrey Smith
Dennis Pitta
Ed Dickson

So Flacco is better than Ryan for hitting a wide variety of receivers, but still has less yards.  I wonder why?
Maybe because Ryan has the better overall receivers?

If Flacco and Ryan swapped receivers (with the exception of Ray Rice), I guarantee that Flacco would have better numbers.
 
2013-03-12 02:06:07 PM  

degenerate-afro: Maybe because Ryan has the better overall receivers?


Also, the consistency of having the same crew for most of that time. Tough to build rapport with your receiving crew when you lose a top target twice (Heap/Mason, though I don;t think either was the #1 when they left).

Remembering down the list a bit, I remember Flacco having #3s like used-up Donte Stallworth, Stonehands McJacobyJones* (or Droppy McLeeEvans), Houshmandzadeh for a bit...until Anquan Boldin got into town (in the 3rd Year of Our Flacco), we didn't have a #1 option at WR (unless you count Ray Rice). Did Matt Ryan have better depth?

I actually don't think Flacco could put up a 4,500+/35+TD season - he's just doesn't look like that kind of QB, and certainly doesn't play (or hasn't yet) in that kind of offense. The fact that Jon Kitna can put up a season like that (though he only had like 15 TD that season) but can't win a SB means I'm OK with a guy not dominating the numbers game. As long as the team gets hardware, I really don't care if he puts up 1,500/8 seasons for the rest of his life (and I get the sense he doesn't either).

*his performance this postseason notwithstanding. Man drops lots of passes.
 
2013-03-12 02:12:59 PM  

Dr J Zoidberg: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I also have to say I wonder where Harvin's "bad attitude" legend came from.  Not to get too controversial, but I notice that it is usually the black players who have "attitude."  Think about it: when was the last time a white player was depicted in the media as being "bad"?  All I can think of is Peyton Hillis, but he never had the "bad attitude" tag placed on him; the media just portrayed him as a bit self-centered and a dullard.  They went out of their way to have his friends give interviews talking about what a great guy he was, etc.

 It strikes me as ironic: when Favre worked with Childress, he was, by all reports, an absolute dick.  He yelled at Childress, he changed Childress's plays, he openly criticized him.  Yet Harvin criticizes Childress, and he becomes a "bad" guy.  I wonder ...

In Favre's defense Childress sucked as a coach


That kind of proves my point about the media portrayal:

Favre complains about Childress:  Childress sucks!
Harvin complains about Childress:  Oh, look at that diva, spoiled WR!
 
2013-03-12 03:06:13 PM  
No way you are happy about this trade if you are a Ravens fan.  Even the biggest yahoo ravens fan out there is going to be thinking "really?  A 6th rounder for Boldin?"

Hey the won the Super Bowl, but now it is rebuilding.  They lose Lewis and Boldin and probably Reed and resign Flacco for huge bucks.  They have to rebuild.  Makes the win a little bittersweet.  The Ravens fan is thinking that it is going to be hard to maintain that.
 
2013-03-12 03:26:07 PM  

nmiguy: No way you are happy about this trade if you are a Ravens fan.  Even the biggest yahoo ravens fan out there is going to be thinking "really?  A 6th rounder for Boldin?"

Hey the won the Super Bowl, but now it is rebuilding.  They lose Lewis and Boldin and probably Reed and resign Flacco for huge bucks.  They have to rebuild.  Makes the win a little bittersweet.  The Ravens fan is thinking that it is going to be hard to maintain that.


If I was a Ravens fan, I would be hoping they'd use the cap room for signing guys like Ellerbe and Kruger, who are much more important to the team's long term success than Boldin was. But I think it's still doubtful they'll be able to keep both.
 
2013-03-12 03:48:16 PM  

nmiguy: No way you are happy about this trade if you are a Ravens fan.  Even the biggest yahoo ravens fan out there is going to be thinking "really?  A 6th rounder for Boldin?"

Hey the won the Super Bowl, but now it is rebuilding.  They lose Lewis and Boldin and probably Reed and resign Flacco for huge bucks.  They have to rebuild.  Makes the win a little bittersweet.  The Ravens fan is thinking that it is going to be hard to maintain that.


Yes, Ravens fans are happy. Because he was going to get released. Something > nothing.
 
2013-03-12 04:55:26 PM  

Dr Dreidel: And yet, no QB had ever done it before. Not Brady or Manning, not Marino or Montana, not any of those guys you mentioned (the only one with a stat like that is that only Matt Ryan and Flacco have started all 16 games their rookie season and made the playoffs - Flacco is the only one to have won a postseason game after that).

It's not 100% Flacco, but take him out of the equation, and you have...Matt Ryan's first year - a good year, but not Flacco's. If Tom Brady had been drafted by the Ravens in 2008, we'd be having a different discussion. I can't argue against every hypothetical, I can only point out that if it was so easy to do, someone other than Flacco would have done it already.


No other QB had ever played his first 5 years with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Haloti Ngata, Ray Rice...you get the idea.  My point is that is any of a dozen other quarterbacks could have piloted just as many victories for those teams over the years, and without that cast around him Flacco would likely have almost exactly Matt Ryan's numbers (more stats, less postseason success).

Also, keep in mind that the league (and the playoffs) have been expanded greatly over the past few decades.  Many of the greats played in eras where it was much more difficult to earn a playoff berth, not to mention in shorter regular seasons where a single loss weighed more heavily on the final results.  That's offset somewhat by free agency in the modern era, but anyone would admit that the Ravens have been outstanding in assembling teams & drafting new talent over the current span of success.

Regardless, this is allegedly a thread about the Boldin trade, which has little if anything to do with how much of the team's success lies on Joe Flacco's shoulders.
 
2013-03-12 05:19:21 PM  

Harv72b: No other QB had ever played his first 5 years with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Haloti Ngata, Ray Rice...you get the idea.  My point is that is any of a dozen other quarterbacks could have piloted just as many victories for those teams over the years


I don't know. How many Super Bowls do Steve McNair, Kyle Boller, Anthony Wright, Elvis Grbac, Randall Cunningham, Jeff Blake, Chris Redman, and Troy Smith have? Because those are all the guys that started at QB for Baltimore since Dilfer, and none of them were able to get it done.
 
2013-03-12 05:54:50 PM  

Scrotastic Method: Harv72b: No other QB had ever played his first 5 years with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Haloti Ngata, Ray Rice...you get the idea.  My point is that is any of a dozen other quarterbacks could have piloted just as many victories for those teams over the years

I don't know. How many Super Bowls do Steve McNair, Kyle Boller, Anthony Wright, Elvis Grbac, Randall Cunningham, Jeff Blake, Chris Redman, and Troy Smith have? Because those are all the guys that started at QB for Baltimore since Dilfer, and none of them were able to get it done.


How many playoff wins PERIOD do those guys have?
 
2013-03-12 06:29:41 PM  

Deneb81: Scrotastic Method: Harv72b: No other QB had ever played his first 5 years with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Haloti Ngata, Ray Rice...you get the idea.  My point is that is any of a dozen other quarterbacks could have piloted just as many victories for those teams over the years

I don't know. How many Super Bowls do Steve McNair, Kyle Boller, Anthony Wright, Elvis Grbac, Randall Cunningham, Jeff Blake, Chris Redman, and Troy Smith have? Because those are all the guys that started at QB for Baltimore since Dilfer, and none of them were able to get it done.

How many playoff wins PERIOD do those guys have?


Flacco only started his rookie season because Troy Smith had the flu or something...you think they were a playoff team with Troy Smith? Neither do I.
 
2013-03-12 06:41:02 PM  

SuperChuck: nmiguy: No way you are happy about this trade if you are a Ravens fan.  Even the biggest yahoo ravens fan out there is going to be thinking "really?  A 6th rounder for Boldin?"

Hey the won the Super Bowl, but now it is rebuilding.  They lose Lewis and Boldin and probably Reed and resign Flacco for huge bucks.  They have to rebuild.  Makes the win a little bittersweet.  The Ravens fan is thinking that it is going to be hard to maintain that.

If I was a Ravens fan, I would be hoping they'd use the cap room for signing guys like Ellerbe and Kruger, who are much more important to the team's long term success than Boldin was. But I think it's still doubtful they'll be able to keep both.


Well, so much for that. There's a lot of transition going on in Baltimore
 
2013-03-13 01:35:18 AM  

Scrotastic Method: Flacco only started his rookie season because Troy Smith had the flu or something...you think they were a playoff team with Troy Smith? Neither do I.


How on earth did my statement that any other "second-tier" quarterback could have racked up just as many wins with the same supporting cast end up with you asking if Troy Smith could have?

Might as well ask if I could have quarterbacked the Ravens to 5 straight playoffs...of course not.  But I'm no more an above-average starting passer in the NFL than Smith was (or Boller, or Wright, or Grbac, or Cunningham, or Blake, or Redman, or over-the-hill McNair).  FFS, all I'm saying is that it's absolutely stupid to give Flacco all the credit for the team's success over the past 5 seasons.  He's an excellent quarterback, and clearly the best the Ravens have ever had.  But he doesn't win games, they do.  Just like he didn't lose the AFC Championship game in 2011, they did.
 
2013-03-13 05:59:14 PM  

bgddy24601: Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

If the Ravens had not signed Flacco to that contract someone else would have (the Chiefs could have waited on the Alex Smith trade and the Browns have plenty of cap room and a need at QB since they are apparently not sold on Weeden). The team did what it had to do. I think they will be able to re-sign Ellerbe and Reed, but Kruger will be gone to the highest bidder, who will be overpaying for him. He looks like another classic "flame out when he leaves Baltimore" defender to me. Time will tell.



Wow..Yeah, I read that (Hensley article) too. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that you thing, you come into a bar, you read some obscure passage, and then pretend, you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girl and embarrass my friend?

For the record, you and Hensley are both full of crap... Only the Ratbirds would've been stupid enough to sign Flacco for all that money.
 
2013-03-13 06:23:09 PM  

T.rex: Only the Ratbirds would've been stupid enough to sign Flacco for all that money.


Yeah, because Ozzie Newsome has that long history of bad decisions.

Flacco's a franchise QB. He has, in his first five years, a better resume than pretty much any QB in NFL history had in theirs. There are no replacements available anywhere near his caliber -- not now, not in the draft. And if another quality QB were available, they would have cost the Ravens just as much -- imagine if Eli or Matt Ryan came up on free agency, you think they're not getting $120M/6? You think Aaron Rodgers isn't going to blow that number up next year? Even Cutler will get better than that.

Also, idiots, his cap number this year is under $7M. Stop acting like Flacco caused Baltimore's cap situation.

On behalf of Baltimore, we're all very sorry that the Ravens won a Super Bowl and you don't like them very much. But T. Rex, Adolf, etc...you don't have to be so wrong all the time.
 
2013-03-13 08:50:59 PM  

T.rex: bgddy24601: Adolf Oliver Nipples: This offseason just keeps getting better and better. They severely overpay Succo, they give away his best receiver, and Mr. Stabby is gone (unfortunately not upstate where he belongs).

If the Ravens had not signed Flacco to that contract someone else would have (the Chiefs could have waited on the Alex Smith trade and the Browns have plenty of cap room and a need at QB since they are apparently not sold on Weeden). The team did what it had to do. I think they will be able to re-sign Ellerbe and Reed, but Kruger will be gone to the highest bidder, who will be overpaying for him. He looks like another classic "flame out when he leaves Baltimore" defender to me. Time will tell.


Wow..Yeah, I read that (Hensley article) too. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that you thing, you come into a bar, you read some obscure passage, and then pretend, you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girl and embarrass my friend?

For the record, you and Hensley are both full of crap... Only the Ratbirds would've been stupid enough to sign Flacco for all that money.


Well I cannot speak for Mr. Hensley's intelligence in anything more than an abstract way I have not, in fact, read the article you accuse me of plagiarizing. I enjoyed his commentary when he worked at the Baltimore Sun, but I stopped reading that when they started charging subscriptions for online content, and I am not a fan of ESPN's online content any more than I am their TV networks (although I hold out hope that The Ocho will be as glorious as Pepper Brooks made it out to be). Honestly, my "analysis" is pretty obvious to any football fan who can look at the sport with a hint of objectivity (which, seeing how you describe the Baltimore team it is most likely you are incapable of doing so I should probably use smaller words). The Chiefs had some decent cap room and an incoming coach who likes to throw the ball a LOT and the Browns have a LOT of cap room and taking a good player from a division rival doubles that player's worth. Kruger and Ellerbe combined for 21 starts over the last 4 years, but I figured the Ravens might pay a little extra to keep him since Lewis retired and McClain is coming off of a spinal injury. I whiffed on Ellerbe because I didn't account for the Dolphins' GM saying "Fark it! I'm in the last year of my contract and I have a metric ass ton of cap space. If the team sucks again I'm out of a job either way. SPEND ALL THE MONEY!"

But hey, thanks for being a condescending asshat as well as an ignorant farkstain. You do your team's fan base proud.
 
2013-03-13 10:58:06 PM  

Scrotastic Method: On behalf of Baltimore, we're all very sorry that the Ravens won a Super Bowl and you don't like them very much. But T. Rex, Adolf, etc...you don't have to be so wrong all the time.


What did you expect? I despise Baltimore. You should no more expect me to have anything nice to say about the Ratbirds than you would say anything nice about the Steelers. And yet, I did say something nice, albeit reluctantly.
 
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