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(Jezebel)   One thing feminists agree on, when a woman takes a "selfie" it is empowerful, when a man takes one, it is vanity, repulsive and a sure sign of infidelity and neediness   (jezebel.com) divider line 387
    More: Obvious, self-portraits, feminists  
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24411 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Mar 2013 at 6:49 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-10 10:45:11 PM  
From the article: Emily recently wrote an ode to selfies, noting the role they play in her own fight to maintain high self-esteem.

"I am ashamed as a feminist to admit that while I champion vanity in women, I find it kind of off-putting in men," Emily told me in an email. "I'd rather a man be thinking about how pretty I am than worrying about how pretty he is."


"That's some good feminism right there, Lou."
"But Chief, don't you know, certain holes can only be filled by a man."
"Easy for you to say, Lou. You're black."
 
2013-03-10 10:45:36 PM  

neongoats: PsiChick: BarkingUnicorn: PsiChick: Has  anyone read the article? Anyone? It's the one at the top of the page, where they  actually say it's a double standard and wrong, because, stunningly enough, feminism has always held that sexist beliefs are as damaging to men as women, which TFA has a  great example of.

/Of course, for the average person in this thread to understand feminism, they'd need basic literacy first...

Jezebel needs basic literacy first, to be understood.  Worst writing on the Web, including American Stinker.

Yeah...again: You really wanna go with that? 'I was supporting the Nice Guy Brigade because I couldn't be arsed to read the article'? Not sure I'd go with that one myself.

neongoats: Maybe if you stop using terms like "turtle people" and "nice guy brigade", people will actually farking pay attention to shiat you have to say. But right now you are acting like the girl version of people that say shiat like "fartbongo".

Let me introduce you to the concept of 'slang terms'. They're a great way to condense multiple ideas into one phrase instead of using an entire sentence.


Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.


I'm pretty sure PsiChick is an MRA advocate masquerading as a feminist. (S)he(?) basically embodies the whole concept of "you're not helping". If I were going to attempt to discredit feminism, I'd pretty much take the same tack that she does.
 
2013-03-10 10:48:08 PM  

neongoats: Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.


It's the Fark double standard on these things. It's like how every time you hear about MRA they are 'so called', or some other diminishing term for talking about Men's rights. The whole idea is to avoid egalitarianism and degrade anyone who would dare stand against the status quo.
 
2013-03-10 10:50:21 PM  
And here I thought MRA was some kind of horrible hospital germ that gets your limbs amputated.
 
2013-03-10 10:53:27 PM  

St_Francis_P: One thing everyone I know agrees on, is to not take Jezebel seriously.


I seriously think that most news and opinion sites are now just blatantly trolling full time to bring in the page hits.
 
2013-03-10 10:55:41 PM  

wedun: I think it's great that the thread can get this far without anyone noticing that the headline has nothing to do with TFA.


And really, we need to get back to arguing about "empowerful" as the newest most awful word on the planet.
 
2013-03-10 10:56:13 PM  

neongoats: neongoats: Maybe if you stop using terms like "turtle people" and "nice guy brigade", people will actually farking pay attention to shiat you have to say. But right now you are acting like the girl version of people that say shiat like "fartbongo".

Let me introduce you to the concept of 'slang terms'. They're a great way to condense multiple ideas into one phrase instead of using an entire sentence.


Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.


...Except nothing I used was  gendered. I mean, I don't know if there's female 'Nice Guys', but there probably are. Are you confused about the 'turtle people' comment? Because that was referring to Republicans, not the Urban Dictionary definition.

WhippingBoy: I'm pretty sure PsiChick is an MRA advocate masquerading as a feminist. (S)he(?) basically embodies the whole concept of "you're not helping". If I were going to attempt to discredit feminism, I'd pretty much take the same tack that she does.


K, this is the fourth time you've come into the thread to biatch about me (by my count, I might have missed others). If I'm causing you this much mental agony, can you just use the damn ignore button already? Seriously, I'm not going to change my opinions for you, thank you for pointing your dislike out anyway. Give up.
 
2013-03-10 10:56:30 PM  

PsiChick: I actually read it as calling attention to it, which is something feminists  do actually do a lot--call attention to a problem to get people thinking about it. That's not usually upholding the problem; it's the first step to confronting it.



If feminists consider "men can't post self portraits without being judged" to be a problem worth drawing attention to, I'd say they are either 1, wasting time and resources better spent on real problems, or 2, have won the fight against every other real problem and are just looking for any slight injustice in the world to support their continued existence.

Either way, the "problem" in TFA was invented for the sake of an article, not the other way around.
 
2013-03-10 10:58:09 PM  

gibbon1: St_Francis_P: One thing everyone I know agrees on, is to not take Jezebel seriously.

I seriously think that most news and opinion sites are now just blatantly trolling full time to bring in the page hits.


I work for a reasonably large news and opinion type site. I don't think we do this, but the business is all about unique views. There are definitely some big sites out their employing personalities to say some stuff to get people riled up.
 
2013-03-10 11:00:20 PM  

PsiChick: I don't know if there's female 'Nice Guys', but there probably are.


That's horribly racist. I know the French are a bit effeminate, but really.

inanutshell.ca
 
2013-03-10 11:01:47 PM  

onyxruby: It's the Fark double standard on these things. It's like how every time you hear about MRA they are 'so called', or some other diminishing term for talking about Men's rights. The whole idea is to avoid egalitarianism and degrade anyone who would dare stand against the status quo.


Heh, I don't really give a shiat about the MRA thing. But as someone that worked low end jobs so his wife could go to college, as someone practically raised by an extremely progressive and feminist grandmother, as someone who was raised around openly gay folks and never hardly noticed(as it was so normal to me), who has supported gender and sexual equality my entire life, I get really really tired of being told what a farking misogynist asshole I am for chafing at the hypocritical double standards directly encouraged by some subsets of modern feminism.
 
2013-03-10 11:01:52 PM  

onyxruby: neongoats: Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

It's the Fark double standard on these things. It's like how every time you hear about MRA they are 'so called', or some other diminishing term for talking about Men's rights. The whole idea is to avoid egalitarianism and degrade anyone who would dare stand against the status quo.


Yeah, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a double-standard like that, too.
 
2013-03-10 11:04:48 PM  

the ha ha guy: Either way, the "problem" in TFA was invented for the sake of an article, not the other way around.


The turtle people are a clear and present danger.
 
2013-03-10 11:05:15 PM  

PsiChick: neongoats: neongoats: Maybe if you stop using terms like "turtle people" and "nice guy brigade", people will actually farking pay attention to shiat you have to say. But right now you are acting like the girl version of people that say shiat like "fartbongo".

Let me introduce you to the concept of 'slang terms'. They're a great way to condense multiple ideas into one phrase instead of using an entire sentence.


Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

...Except nothing I used was  gendered. I mean, I don't know if there's female 'Nice Guys', but there probably are.


Ill give you "turtle people" then. But trying to claim "nice guys brigade" isn't a gender targeted pejorative is kind if ridiculous.
 
2013-03-10 11:08:40 PM  

the ha ha guy: PsiChick: I actually read it as calling attention to it, which is something feminists  do actually do a lot--call attention to a problem to get people thinking about it. That's not usually upholding the problem; it's the first step to confronting it.


If feminists consider "men can't post self portraits without being judged" to be a problem worth drawing attention to, I'd say they are either 1, wasting time and resources better spent on real problems, or 2, have won the fight against every other real problem and are just looking for any slight injustice in the world to support their continued existence.

Either way, the "problem" in TFA was invented for the sake of an article, not the other way around.


Well, yes, but that's half of modern journalism, and really has nothing to do with what TFA even says in the first place.

neongoats: PsiChick: neongoats: neongoats: Maybe if you stop using terms like "turtle people" and "nice guy brigade", people will actually farking pay attention to shiat you have to say. But right now you are acting like the girl version of people that say shiat like "fartbongo".

Let me introduce you to the concept of 'slang terms'. They're a great way to condense multiple ideas into one phrase instead of using an entire sentence.


Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

...Except nothing I used was  gendered. I mean, I don't know if there's female 'Nice Guys', but there probably are.

Ill give you "turtle people" then. But trying to claim "nice guys brigade" isn't a gender targeted pejorative is kind if ridiculous.


So name the female version, we'll come up with its own name. And if you're annoyed because 'guys' is in the title, well, a) it's named for what they say in the first place, the "I'm a nice guy but..." rant, and b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don't know the gender of the person, so good luck changing that one.
 
2013-03-10 11:09:16 PM  

PsiChick: neongoats: neongoats: Maybe if you stop using terms like "turtle people" and "nice guy brigade", people will actually farking pay attention to shiat you have to say. But right now you are acting like the girl version of people that say shiat like "fartbongo".

Let me introduce you to the concept of 'slang terms'. They're a great way to condense multiple ideas into one phrase instead of using an entire sentence.


Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

...Except nothing I used was  gendered. I mean, I don't know if there's female 'Nice Guys', but there probably are. Are you confused about the 'turtle people' comment? Because that was referring to Republicans, not the Urban Dictionary definition.

WhippingBoy: I'm pretty sure PsiChick is an MRA advocate masquerading as a feminist. (S)he(?) basically embodies the whole concept of "you're not helping". If I were going to attempt to discredit feminism, I'd pretty much take the same tack that she does.

K, this is the fourth time you've come into the thread to biatch about me (by my count, I might have missed others). If I'm causing you this much mental agony, can you just use the damn ignore button already? Seriously, I'm not going to change my opinions for you, thank you for pointing your dislike out anyway. Give up.


See. That's the ironic beauty of it all. I'm accomplishing exactly the same thing that you are. Which is absolutely nothing. But at least I realize that and I'm having fun doing it. You're under the delusion that what you say might make some sort of difference, when, in reality, it's all just masturbation.
 
2013-03-10 11:12:21 PM  

PsiChick: b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don't know the gender of the person, so good luck changing that one.


I say they, usually. But I do default to gendered words for large groups, although it's usually "guys" for groups that need to quiet down and "ladies" for groups that are being too quiet.
 
2013-03-10 11:12:53 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-10 11:14:20 PM  

PsiChick: Yeah, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a double-standard like that, too.


A quick debunking of your post on domestic violence. This is a research study that completely debunks your SPLC nonsense.

http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/newsarticle.aspx?articleid=111 13 7

Here's a fresh article from today talking about how rape statistics can be knowingly over reported for /years/ and not reported at all for Men. I'm not even getting into false accusations and so on.

http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/196794231.html

Point being that there are many, many double standards about these things. When Men's rights are being trampled than you seem to think it's okay to mock men for wanting equality. The idea that their is something to shameful for wanting equality for men has been the latest thing to come out of militant feminist movement. Reactions like yours are typical and predictable, and they all focus on one thing - avoiding equality.
 
2013-03-10 11:14:58 PM  

PsiChick: Yeah, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a double-standard like that, too.


You have to marvel at the spectacle of the SPLC with their multi- hundred million dollar war chest chasing after pick-up artists on the Internet; they really are the Witchfinders-General of the modern era. And yet amazingly these same charlatans are continually being sought after by government officials and the media to offer their opinions as to what constitutes "hate"! Honestly, you couldn't make it up.

http://harpers.org/blog/2010/03/hate-immigration-and-the-southern-po ve rty-law-center/
 
2013-03-10 11:19:41 PM  

WhippingBoy: [25.media.tumblr.com image 266x393]


Oh gawd. I remember that.
 
2013-03-10 11:23:31 PM  

PsiChick: onyxruby: neongoats: Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

It's the Fark double standard on these things. It's like how every time you hear about MRA they are 'so called', or some other diminishing term for talking about Men's rights. The whole idea is to avoid egalitarianism and degrade anyone who would dare stand against the status quo.

Yeah, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a double-standard like that, too.



So when a few anti-equality women who call themselves feminists lie to promote their cause, they're not really feminists. But when a few anti-equality men who call themselves MRAs lie to promote their cause, they represent every MRA.

Nope, no double standards there...
 
2013-03-10 11:25:25 PM  

PsiChick:

So name the female version, we'll come up with its own name. And if you're annoyed because 'guys' is in the title, well, a) it's named for what they say in the first place, the "I'm a nice guy but..." rant, and b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don' ...


That's some pretty circular rationalization there. We have non gendered words to describe groups of people in the English language. If you had meant "nice people brigade" you would have said it. But you meant "men" and said what you meant. That's fine, but recognize that that's not neither nice, nor being honestly against gender bias. It's just swinging the bias in the other direction. And maybe you feel justified in that, *shrug*.
 
2013-03-10 11:27:11 PM  

neongoats: Heh, I don't really give a shiat about the MRA thing. But as someone that worked low end jobs so his wife could go to college, as someone practically raised by an extremely progressive and feminist grandmother


You know your background isn't that different than mine. I had a feminist grandmother that put herself through college during WW2 for a degree in Psychiatry just because she wanted to. My mother was a feminist and my father was very progressive, to the point that for a couple years my parents even tried the whole gender swapped toy thing when we were young children.

A funny thing happened to that, with years and years of seeing boys and men actively discriminated against my eyes started opening up. My worldviews were challenged and I started researching the mythology that I was raised on. Than I went through the family court system and witnessed just how sexist things really are first hand.

What I've seen over the years is that most MRA don't set out to be MRA, they fall into it after years of being abused and experiencing first hand double standards and sexism. One of the better known MRA is Warren Farrel, a former leader in the NOW. Being a MRA is fundamentally no different than being a feminist, either one simply means you are concerned about the rights of a given gender. Either one can just as easily become a chauvinist.
 
2013-03-10 11:32:18 PM  

the ha ha guy: So when a few anti-equality women who call themselves feminists lie to promote their cause, they're not really feminists. But when a few anti-equality men who call themselves MRAs lie to promote their cause, they represent every MRA


Being a feminist or an MRA if fundamentally the same thing, it simply means you concerned about the rights of a given gender. Where some people cross the line is when they stop focusing on rights and start using dishonesty or hate to advance what they perceive as their cause. These people become liars or immune to inconvenient truths and go from being rights activists to chauvinists in their zeal. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it on either side.
 
2013-03-10 11:36:17 PM  
I'm glad I clicked on this thread.  That is all.
 
2013-03-10 11:41:22 PM  

onyxruby: the ha ha guy: So when a few anti-equality women who call themselves feminists lie to promote their cause, they're not really feminists. But when a few anti-equality men who call themselves MRAs lie to promote their cause, they represent every MRA

Being a feminist or an MRA if fundamentally the same thing, it simply means you concerned about the rights of a given gender. Where some people cross the line is when they stop focusing on rights and start using dishonesty or hate to advance what they perceive as their cause. These people become liars or immune to inconvenient truths and go from being rights activists to chauvinists in their zeal. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it on either side.


It's a sad world we live in when standing up for your rights is vilified, no matter who you are.
 
2013-03-10 11:42:25 PM  

lelio: I thought a selfie was masturbating to bum fights.

/ I can't be the only one


*raises hand shamefully*
 
2013-03-10 11:43:28 PM  

PsiChick: and b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don't know the gender of the person, so good luck changing that one.


I find that interesting. I was taught growing up to use "she" when gender is unknown or the subject refers to a person in general. And I'm not some millennium kid, I was born in the 70s. Are you sure you're not just making that up to validate your earlier comment?

I just found this, by the way: "The use of "he" to refer to a person of unknown gender was prescribed by manuals of style and school textbooks from the early 18th century until around the 1960s"1

So you are definitely trying to deceive, or else you have no clue how the English language has progressed in the past half century.


1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Modern_Englis h
 
2013-03-10 11:46:20 PM  

onyxruby: the ha ha guy: So when a few anti-equality women who call themselves feminists lie to promote their cause, they're not really feminists. But when a few anti-equality men who call themselves MRAs lie to promote their cause, they represent every MRA

Being a feminist or an MRA if fundamentally the same thing, it simply means you concerned about the rights of a given gender. Where some people cross the line is when they stop focusing on rights and start using dishonesty or hate to advance what they perceive as their cause. These people become liars or immune to inconvenient truths and go from being rights activists to chauvinists in their zeal. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it on either side.



I agree completely, I was just pointing out how she cites an article stating that all MRAs are liars because the fringe group lies, but in the same thread dismisses the female-equivalent fringe group as not really feminists.

No real point, just thought the double standard was amusing, especially coming from someone who has been arguing so vehemently against double standards.
 
2013-03-10 11:47:53 PM  

the ha ha guy: PsiChick: onyxruby: neongoats: Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

It's the Fark double standard on these things. It's like how every time you hear about MRA they are 'so called', or some other diminishing term for talking about Men's rights. The whole idea is to avoid egalitarianism and degrade anyone who would dare stand against the status quo.

Yeah, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a double-standard like that, too.


So when a few anti-equality women who call themselves feminists lie to promote their cause, they're not really feminists. But when a few anti-equality men who call themselves MRAs lie to promote their cause, they represent every MRA.

Nope, no double standards there...


So would you care to provide the name of the mainstream groups that  don't support this? Because in five or so years of having MRA groups try to jump down my throat (usually when I'm agreeing with them), I've seen exactly one.

neongoats: PsiChick:

So name the female version, we'll come up with its own name. And if you're annoyed because 'guys' is in the title, well, a) it's named for what they say in the first place, the "I'm a nice guy but..." rant, and b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don' ...

That's some pretty circular rationalization there. We have non gendered words to describe groups of people in the English language. If you had meant "nice people brigade" you would have said it. But you meant "men" and said what you meant. That's fine, but recognize that that's not neither nice, nor being honestly against gender bias. It's just swinging the bias in the other direction. And maybe you feel justified in that, *shrug*.


The fallacy of circular reasoning is when you say 'ice floats in water because it's ice', not 'it's named X because it is X'. It's called the 'Nice Guy Brigade', as I said, because  they start the rant by defining themselves as male. So unless you want to argue that they don't know their own gender...
 
2013-03-10 11:50:32 PM  

arashinogarou: PsiChick: and b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don't know the gender of the person, so good luck changing that one.

I find that interesting. I was taught growing up to use "she" when gender is unknown or the subject refers to a person in general. And I'm not some millennium kid, I was born in the 70s. Are you sure you're not just making that up to validate your earlier comment?

I just found this, by the way: "The use of "he" to refer to a person of unknown gender was prescribed by manuals of style and school textbooks from the early 18th century until around the 1960s"1

So you are definitely trying to deceive, or else you have no clue how the English language has progressed in the past half century.


1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Modern_Englis h


Well, I was going off what I was taught as a child, but okay, fine, it was a fairly secondary point anyway. My main point remains: Nice Guys are so-called because that's what they self-identify as--i.e. 'I'm a nice guy but'.
 
2013-03-10 11:56:21 PM  

PsiChick: the ha ha guy: PsiChick: onyxruby: neongoats: Is this another double standard you are going to be unapologetic about? If anyone here used similarly charged female targeted "slang terms", you would be(rightly) indignant about it.

It's the Fark double standard on these things. It's like how every time you hear about MRA they are 'so called', or some other diminishing term for talking about Men's rights. The whole idea is to avoid egalitarianism and degrade anyone who would dare stand against the status quo.

Yeah, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a double-standard like that, too.


So when a few anti-equality women who call themselves feminists lie to promote their cause, they're not really feminists. But when a few anti-equality men who call themselves MRAs lie to promote their cause, they represent every MRA.

Nope, no double standards there...

So would you care to provide the name of the mainstream groups that  don't support this? Because in five or so years of having MRA groups try to jump down my throat (usually when I'm agreeing with them), I've seen exactly one.

neongoats: PsiChick:

So name the female version, we'll come up with its own name. And if you're annoyed because 'guys' is in the title, well, a) it's named for what they say in the first place, the "I'm a nice guy but..." rant, and b) English is a male-gender language; you say 'he' when you don' ...

That's some pretty circular rationalization there. We have non gendered words to describe groups of people in the English language. If you had meant "nice people brigade" you would have said it. But you meant "men" and said what you meant. That's fine, but recognize that that's not neither nice, nor being honestly against gender bias. It's just swinging the bias in the other direction. And maybe you feel justified in that, *shrug*.

The fallacy of circular reasoning is when you say 'ice floats in water because it's ice', not 'it's named X because it is X'. It's called the 'Nice Guy Brigade', as I sai ...


"They start the rants that way"

Who?

"The nice guys brigade"

Who are they?

"Men who start off rants about women by starting off saying they are nice"

So only men do it?

"No, I suppose maybe women do it too"

So why don't we call it "nice people's brigade"

"Because men start off their anti women rants by saying how nice they are"

And you are honestly not calling your logic circular and biased? Holy shiat.
 
2013-03-10 11:56:44 PM  

arashinogarou: I find that interesting. I was taught growing up to use "she" when gender is unknown or the subject refers to a person in general.


This always struck me as a double standard, i.e. that those who objected to the use of male pronouns to refer to all of mankind very often resorted to using female pronouns for the same purpose instead. (Why, it's almost as if feminists weren't actually interested in equality at all, but in female supremacy... surely not.) At least the male metonymy in English could appeal to the precedent of more than a thousand years of literary history.
 
2013-03-10 11:56:46 PM  

PsiChick: So unless you want to argue that they don't know their own gender...


A lot of people don't. I have a friend who physically is female and identifies as female, but tries to look male. She is bisexual, though mostly into women. She has said more than once that she doesn't see a distinction between the sexes in her own life. Interestingly, she has no patience for either feminists or chauvinists. I also have an acquaintance who wishes he was born female but has said many times in the past he has no idea what he is.

Those are just two of a handful of people I know, work with or associate with who are confused about their own gender. For you to supposedly champion equality earlier in this thread, then openly poke fun at the gender-confused just to make a point, only proves what you are truly all about.
 
2013-03-10 11:59:42 PM  

PsiChick: So would you care to provide the name of the mainstream groups that  don't support this? Because in five or so years of having MRA groups try to jump down my throat (usually when I'm agreeing with them), I've seen exactly one.



I could say the same about every mainstream feminist group I've seen.
 
2013-03-11 12:01:08 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: arashinogarou: I find that interesting. I was taught growing up to use "she" when gender is unknown or the subject refers to a person in general.

This always struck me as a double standard, i.e. that those who objected to the use of male pronouns to refer to all of mankind very often resorted to using female pronouns for the same purpose instead. (Why, it's almost as if feminists weren't actually interested in equality at all, but in female supremacy... surely not.) At least the male metonymy in English could appeal to the precedent of more than a thousand years of literary history.


Honestly, I don't care either way. I've always tried to follow what the grammar books say because I'd like to be reasonably good at something besides repairing electronics. I write the way I was taught growing up, and when a change in the rules is brought to my attention I try to stick with it. But I distinctly remember using "she" as the unknown pronoun all the way back to primary school.
 
2013-03-11 12:01:09 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-11 12:01:47 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: arashinogarou: I find that interesting. I was taught growing up to use "she" when gender is unknown or the subject refers to a person in general.

This always struck me as a double standard, i.e. that those who objected to the use of male pronouns to refer to all of mankind very often resorted to using female pronouns for the same purpose instead. (Why, it's almost as if feminists weren't actually interested in equality at all, but in female supremacy... surely not.) At least the male metonymy in English could appeal to the precedent of more than a thousand years of literary history.


It gets worse. The more you get mired in neofeminist philosophy, the more you'll see the term "ze" (as in "ze said, ze said") used as an inoffensive, gender-neutral pronoun.
 
2013-03-11 12:03:48 AM  

WhippingBoy: It gets worse. The more you get mired in neofeminist philosophy, the more you'll see the term "ze" (as in "ze said, ze said") used as an inoffensive, gender-neutral pronoun.


Interesting, I've never heard that one! Well, apart from bad Nazi SS officer impressions.
 
2013-03-11 12:04:55 AM  

arashinogarou: But I distinctly remember using "she" as the unknown pronoun all the way back to primary school.



And I distinctly remember using "he" as the gender neutral pronoun in every school, the most recent being in college in the early 2000's.
 
2013-03-11 12:09:51 AM  

the ha ha guy: arashinogarou: But I distinctly remember using "she" as the unknown pronoun all the way back to primary school.


And I distinctly remember using "he" as the gender neutral pronoun in every school, the most recent being in college in the early 2000's.


That's interesting. Where are you from/did you go to school, if I may ask? I was born and mostly raised in the Southeast US, though a lot of my primary education was in Arizona and California.
 
2013-03-11 12:11:05 AM  

the ha ha guy: PsiChick: So would you care to provide the name of the mainstream groups that  don't support this? Because in five or so years of having MRA groups try to jump down my throat (usually when I'm agreeing with them), I've seen exactly one.


I could say the same about every mainstream feminist group I've seen.


But that's different.
 
2013-03-11 12:14:45 AM  

neongoats: "They start the rants that way"

Who?

"The nice guys brigade"

Who are they?

"Men who start off rants about women by starting off saying they are nice"

So only men do it?

"No, I suppose maybe women do it too"

So why don't we call it "nice people's brigade"

"Because men start off their anti women rants by saying how nice they are"

And you are honestly not calling your logic circular and biased? Holy shiat.


*sigh* I don't see behind a keyboard. It's entirely possible there are women who post those things. But since they self-identify as guys, it's pretty damn hard to claim they're women.

You still have not proven that calling nice guys 'Nice Guys' is any sort of misnomer.

arashinogarou: PsiChick: So unless you want to argue that they don't know their own gender...

A lot of people don't. I have a friend who physically is female and identifies as female, but tries to look male. She is bisexual, though mostly into women. She has said more than once that she doesn't see a distinction between the sexes in her own life. Interestingly, she has no patience for either feminists or chauvinists. I also have an acquaintance who wishes he was born female but has said many times in the past he has no idea what he is.

Those are just two of a handful of people I know, work with or associate with who are confused about their own gender. For you to supposedly champion equality earlier in this thread, then openly poke fun at the gender-confused just to make a point, only proves what you are truly all about.


...Well, I  wasn't poking fun at the gender-confused, and I actually have repeatedly pointed out on Fark that it's rude to call people by the wrong gender if they're trans. I was  actually poking fun at the people who pretend they know what gender other people are. But yeah, sure, let's pretend I was poking fun at the gender-confused despite years of taking the exact opposite of that position.

the ha ha guy: PsiChick: So would you care to provide the name of the mainstream groups that  don't support this? Because in five or so years of having MRA groups try to jump down my throat (usually when I'm agreeing with them), I've seen exactly one.


I could say the same about every mainstream feminist group I've seen.


Here, have the dictionary definition of what feminism is. Don't think it gets more 'mainstream' than that.
 
2013-03-11 12:17:42 AM  

WhippingBoy: It gets worse. The more you get mired in neofeminist philosophy, the more you'll see the term "ze" (as in "ze said, ze said") used as an inoffensive, gender-neutral pronoun.


It's even more mainstream in Europe: "Gender-neutral "hen" makes its legal debut" in Sweden:

http://www.thelocal.se/45070/20121214/#.UT1YfFe7eko

"Sweden's gender-neutral pre-school":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419

As usual, the ancients had a better grasp on human nature than we do: as the Roman poet Horace said, "you may drive out Nature with a pitchfork, yet she will always return." Attempts to extinguish or confuse biological sex differences in the name of some mythical ideal of egalitarianism are inevitably doomed to failure.
 
2013-03-11 12:18:16 AM  

arashinogarou: the ha ha guy: arashinogarou: But I distinctly remember using "she" as the unknown pronoun all the way back to primary school.


And I distinctly remember using "he" as the gender neutral pronoun in every school, the most recent being in college in the early 2000's.

That's interesting. Where are you from/did you go to school, if I may ask? I was born and mostly raised in the Southeast US, though a lot of my primary education was in Arizona and California.



College was in the Northeast US, primary school was SE US in the 80's. I'm guessing it's based more on local teacher/administrator preferences than any nationwide movement to use the word "she".
 
2013-03-11 12:19:13 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: WhippingBoy: It gets worse. The more you get mired in neofeminist philosophy, the more you'll see the term "ze" (as in "ze said, ze said") used as an inoffensive, gender-neutral pronoun.

It's even more mainstream in Europe: "Gender-neutral "hen" makes its legal debut" in Sweden:

http://www.thelocal.se/45070/20121214/#.UT1YfFe7eko

"Sweden's gender-neutral pre-school":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419

As usual, the ancients had a better grasp on human nature than we do: as the Roman poet Horace said, "you may drive out Nature with a pitchfork, yet she will always return." Attempts to extinguish or confuse biological sex differences in the name of some mythical ideal of egalitarianism are inevitably doomed to failure.


Agreed. Feminism is basically repackaged Marxism. And we all know how well that worked out.
 
2013-03-11 12:19:31 AM  
Came for NSFW female duckface selfies. Leaving extremely dissapointed. Boooo.
 
2013-03-11 12:21:45 AM  

PsiChick: despite years of taking the exact opposite of that position.


I don't know you any more than you know me. I took issue with what you said specifically in the post I quoted, and more generally with your overt hatred of men. You have made it crystal clear in this thread that the very concept of men and women being equal and getting along is alien to you. Since it is futile to try to have a discussion with a person so obviously unbalanced and bigoted, I'm afraid I'll have to bow out. The floor is yours.
 
2013-03-11 12:21:45 AM  

PsiChick: the ha ha guy: PsiChick: So would you care to provide the name of the mainstream groups that  don't support this? Because in five or so years of having MRA groups try to jump down my throat (usually when I'm agreeing with them), I've seen exactly one.


I could say the same about every mainstream feminist group I've seen.

Here, have the dictionary definition of what feminism is. Don't think it gets more 'mainstream' than that.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
 
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