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(NPR)   Okay, trick question here. When undocumented workers move into a neighborhood do a) crime rates go up b) crimes rates go down c) Tea Partiers' heads explode d) both b and c   (npr.org) divider line 205
    More: Interesting, illegal immigrants, local prison, Lou Barletta, crime rates, immigrants  
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2809 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Mar 2013 at 2:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-09 12:26:40 PM  
I can confirm that my area of NYC is one of the most ethnically diverse populations... well, probably in the world. It's also very low crime compared to other parts of the city and compared to other cities in general.
 
2013-03-09 12:46:04 PM  
The one caveat that springs to mind is the question of underreporting -- immigrants not reporting offenses against them because of fears about the INS, or worse still trying to report crimes to cops who won't fill out the paperwork.

I suspect that can probably be controlled for, however.
 
2013-03-09 12:52:30 PM  
Moreover, the bad eggs in any society tend to be less economically mobile than their counterparts, and therefore less likely to leave their home country (drug gangs created by prohibition notwithstanding, but that's for another conversation entirely).
 
2013-03-09 01:02:12 PM  
The article seems to mix undocumented and legal immigrants rather liberally. By that I mean, as I often have to point out to people, immigrant is not equivalent to illegal alien.

Words matter; Rush says so.
 
2013-03-09 01:11:50 PM  
Are you telling me that teabaggers' fears aren't always based on accurate assumptions?

I just don't know what to believe anymore.
 
2013-03-09 01:29:48 PM  
I believe that most illegal immigrants are hard working individuals.

I believe that most illegal immigrants are honest individuals.

I believe that all illegal immigrants are here illegally.

What part of illegal don't you understand.

If you don't like the law, work to get it changed, but don't ignore it just because you don't like it.  Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.
 
2013-03-09 01:34:06 PM  

BillCo: Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.


1/10
 
2013-03-09 01:52:51 PM  

make me some tea: BillCo: Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.

1/10


That was awfully generous.
 
2013-03-09 02:06:15 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: That was awfully generous.


I try to give the benefit of the doubt in most cases.
 
2013-03-09 02:35:26 PM  
That's awesome, now let's create a way for them to come in legally without traipsing through and trashing the Arizona desert.
 
2013-03-09 02:52:10 PM  
Honestly, I don't give a shiat if they bring in single malt scotch to hand out and cure hangovers.  The law is the law, get'em out.


/Besides... Isn't their very presence inside the country against the law?  Are we also not counting things like identity theft in the stats?
 
2013-03-09 02:53:31 PM  
well the number of scofflaws in the town increased precisely by the number of people who moved in, if that's what you mean subs
 
2013-03-09 02:54:26 PM  
Doesn't surprise me in the least.

When you look at the percentages by (estimated) population living in the US, Mexicans are among the most law-abiding immigrant groups we have. It's just by sheer weight of total numbers that we hear more about Mexican criminals and gangs more than we hear about Somali or Salvadoran or Hmong or other high-crime-ratio migrant groups.
 
2013-03-09 02:54:44 PM  

BillCo: I believe that most illegal immigrants are hard working individuals.

I believe that most illegal immigrants are honest individuals.

I believe that all illegal immigrants are here illegally.

What part of illegal don't you understand.

If you don't like the law, work to get it changed, but don't ignore it just because you don't like it.   Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.


Ive bolded the parts in which you have lost any and all credibility and chance of convincing anyone of your view point.  See you could have stopped there, and had a point, but you went ahead in to the Partisan Shill territory.
 
2013-03-09 02:56:26 PM  

Ontos: /Besides... Isn't their very presence inside the country against the law? Are we also not counting things like identity theft in the stats?


That depends, do you count speeding tickets when you consider the crime rate? Because they are on the same level with each other
 
2013-03-09 02:57:15 PM  

BillCo: Without laws, we are just a one nation of liberals under a groove, gettin' down just for the funk of it.

 
2013-03-09 02:58:17 PM  

Ontos: Honestly, I don't give a shiat if they bring in single malt scotch to hand out and cure hangovers.  The law is the law, get'em out.


So you want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on each one to investigate, document, detain, transport, and deport? All for what... the right to pay vastly higher prices at the grocery store? The US economy would collapse overnight if you could wave a magic wand and remove all illegal immigrants from this country.

Ontos: /Besides... Isn't their very presence inside the country against the law?  Are we also not counting things like identity theft in the stats?


The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.
 
2013-03-09 03:01:03 PM  
So now on top of them being here ILLEGALLY and taking HARD WORKING AMERICANS' jobs they are also committing undocumented crimes? If these undocumented workers' undocumented crimes aren't reported how are we going to document the fictional transgressions of these interlopers we don't know aren't committing crimes? I'm going to write a strongly worded letter to my state representative outlining the ways in which we can catch these criminals in crimes they aren't perpetrating. Just like we got some Puerto Rican Guy to kill Nicole Brown Simpson.
 
2013-03-09 03:02:50 PM  

clkeagle: The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.


citation? I don't see a very compelling reason for an employer to commit identity theft in order to pay payroll taxes on an employee while effectively lowering their takehome pay making his wage offering that much less appealing.
 
2013-03-09 03:03:55 PM  

Ontos: Honestly, I don't give a shiat if they bring in single malt scotch to hand out and cure hangovers.  The law is the law, get'em out.


/Besides... Isn't their very presence inside the country against the law?  Are we also not counting things like identity theft in the stats?


What about wages? Do they drop when illegal aliens move in, do industries like construction lose American workers due to cheap labor?
 
2013-03-09 03:04:23 PM  
I think subby should be chastised for violation of basic Fark rule that the answer to all multichoice Q's is c) and only c)
 
2013-03-09 03:04:40 PM  
But, there was just an article about an undocumented worker who crashed while drinking and driving without insurance. Doesn't that mean they are all bad?
 
2013-03-09 03:05:57 PM  
c) Tea Partiers' heads explode
One of the primary characteristics of a right wingtard is the ability to ignore facts and reality and rationalize blatant contradictions and lies.  What makes you think they'll have any trouble with it this time?
 
2013-03-09 03:07:48 PM  
I recall a study done in San Diego some two decades ago that found that most crime attributed to undocumented workers was, indeed, committed by Mexicans. Mexicans who lived in Mexico, crossed the border, and recrossed it.  The undocumented tended to be more interested in working and sending money back to Tia Urraca back in Michoacán.
 
2013-03-09 03:11:31 PM  

skullkrusher: clkeagle: The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.

citation? I don't see a very compelling reason for an employer to commit identity theft in order to pay payroll taxes on an employee while effectively lowering their takehome pay making his wage offering that much less appealing.


It's the kind of statement that seems likely to me, though a citation would be nice.

In any event, assuming it's true, the logical conclusion is that it's safer/cheaper/more profitable to be able to have the illegals work openly with the protection of a false identity to prevent the gubmint from fining/closing the business than it is to try and have the illegals work while hiding them all the time.
 
2013-03-09 03:12:43 PM  
Makes perfect sense.  The last thing you want to do when living illegally and just trying to make money is get into criminal trouble.  You've also just made this incredibly arduous trek to get to where you currently are to make more money than you ever thought possible.  Why steal televisions, or whatever, at that point?  It'd be stupid, and believe it or not, you're not stupid.  Maybe not educated, but definitely not stupid.

I love how Farkers find this the worst thing in the world.  Yes, of course we should do better on illegal immigration.  But these are, God's honest truth, people, true, real, live human beings.  Believe it or not they tend to act much more like humans than they do the vermin they're portrayed to be.
 
2013-03-09 03:14:19 PM  

Emposter: skullkrusher: clkeagle: The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.

citation? I don't see a very compelling reason for an employer to commit identity theft in order to pay payroll taxes on an employee while effectively lowering their takehome pay making his wage offering that much less appealing.

It's the kind of statement that seems likely to me, though a citation would be nice.

In any event, assuming it's true, the logical conclusion is that it's safer/cheaper/more profitable to be able to have the illegals work openly with the protection of a false identity to prevent the gubmint from fining/closing the business than it is to try and have the illegals work while hiding them all the time.


I don't see the payoff in committing a felony to hide the fact that you're committing a slap on the wrist infraction while increasing the amount of taxes you have to pay and the wages you have to pay to have takehome remain the same
 
2013-03-09 03:14:43 PM  
Yeah, sure

They release unrealistic numbers now, and the 0bummer and his cronies "readjust" the numbers a few months later when nobody is looking.

Par for the course...considering 0bongo spends so much time on one.
 
2013-03-09 03:16:17 PM  
Unfortunately, this article falls into the standard strawman of claiming that people who oppose illegal immigration actually oppose all immigration. The studies they cite also do not make this distinction.
 
2013-03-09 03:17:00 PM  

violentsalvation: That's awesome, now let's create a way for them to come in legally without traipsing through and trashing the Arizona desert.


Works for me. Also quit this War on Drugs bullshiat while they're at it. Criminalizing something that has a vibrant market will always end in black markets and crime, and immigration and drugs are vibrant markets, and always will be as long as this is a rich country.
 
2013-03-09 03:17:05 PM  
Damn.

I feel dirty just typing that in jest. I don't understand how the local Right-Wing shills deal with themselves on an emotional basis.
 
2013-03-09 03:18:11 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Are you telling me that teabaggers' fears aren't always based on accurate assumptions?

I just don't know what to believe anymore.


I hear ya.

The totally-not-racist Teahadists have defended their recent spate of anti-immigrant legislation as being all about increased crime due to immigrants not some other ill-defined reason and now we find out that that's completely the opposite of true.

Let's just say I was glad I was sitting down when I heard.
 
2013-03-09 03:18:11 PM  

clkeagle: The US economy would collapse overnight if you could wave a magic wand and remove all illegal immigrants from this country.


Is that some sort of option? No, then why even bring it up?
 
2013-03-09 03:18:45 PM  

skullkrusher: clkeagle: The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.

citation? I don't see a very compelling reason for an employer to commit identity theft in order to pay payroll taxes on an employee while effectively lowering their takehome pay making his wage offering that much less appealing.


Is your Google broken today? I found these just on a very quick search.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Companies-pay-millions-for-hiring- il legal-2684214.php - related story on ICE's site:  http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1201/120124houston.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870396110457614859002330 9 196.html
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national-govt-politics/immigration-auth or ities-take-aim-at-illegal-hiring/nWBPt/

jim32rr: What about wages? Do they drop when illegal aliens move in, do industries like construction lose American workers due to cheap labor?


It's an old argument. But I haven't seen any studies that back it up. It's kind of the opposite - Americans are becoming less and less interested in menial jobs, so those industries are simply using illegals to get the jobs done. That they will often do it for less money is more of a fortunate by-product than a cause. On the other hand, things like this happen when all the illegals flee an area:  http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/12/alabama-cant-find-any o ne-fill-illegal-immigrants-old-jobs/45829/

Onagarf: I recall a study done in San Diego some two decades ago that found that most crime attributed to undocumented workers was, indeed, committed by Mexicans. Mexicans who lived in Mexico, crossed the border, and recrossed it.  The undocumented tended to be more interested in working and sending money back to Tia Urraca back in Michoacán.


That's true of most border towns. I've seen the same studies and conclusiosn in El Paso and Brownsville.
 
2013-03-09 03:19:32 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: So now on top of them being here ILLEGALLY and taking HARD WORKING AMERICANS' jobs they are also committing undocumented crimes? If these undocumented workers' undocumented crimes aren't reported how are we going to document the fictional transgressions of these interlopers we don't know aren't committing crimes? I'm going to write a strongly worded letter to my state representative outlining the ways in which we can catch these criminals in crimes they aren't perpetrating. Just like we got some Puerto Rican Guy to kill Nicole Brown Simpson.


bwhaahahah
 
2013-03-09 03:20:38 PM  

BillCo: I believe that most illegal immigrants are hard working individuals.

I believe that most illegal immigrants are honest individuals.

I believe that all illegal immigrants are here illegally.

What part of illegal don't you understand.

If you don't like the law, work to get it changed, but don't ignore it just because you don't like it.  Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.


Could it be that they are more cognizant of the law (i.e. don't break the law) because of their status? That is, they don't want to bring attention to themselves because they don't want to be deported?

Sounds like a win-win situation.
 
2013-03-09 03:21:20 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: make me some tea: BillCo: Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.

1/10

That was awfully generous.


I think the first point is for participation.  Which seems appropriate, given which twit we're awarding points to.

Cheers
 
2013-03-09 03:21:40 PM  

Emposter: c) Tea Partiers' heads explode
One of the primary characteristics of a right wingtard is the ability to ignore facts and reality and rationalize blatant contradictions and lies.  What makes you think they'll have any trouble with it this time?


Yeah, I don't think that the "tea Party" is going to be particularly surprised that an immigrant community has less crime than crack addled group of ..... well, you get the idea...
 
2013-03-09 03:22:36 PM  

BillCo: I believe that most illegal immigrants are hard working individuals.

I believe that most illegal immigrants are honest individuals.

I believe that all illegal immigrants are here illegally.

What part of illegal don't you understand.

If you don't like the law, work to get it changed, but don't ignore it just because you don't like it.   Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.


This is why we don't take you seriously, and have you either in Piss Yellow, Retard Red, or just plain blocked.
 
2013-03-09 03:25:34 PM  

Onagarf: I recall a study done in San Diego some two decades ago that found that most crime attributed to undocumented workers was, indeed, committed by Mexicans. Mexicans who lived in Mexico, crossed the border, and recrossed it.  The undocumented tended to be more interested in working and sending money back to Tia Urraca back in Michoacán.


going by true crime TV shows this is a problem in areas where illegals who are hoodlums can quickly vanish back over the border. a lot of murders & rapes go unpunished. sad for the families of victims, frustrating for law enforcement. considering there is all sorts of facial identification software it seems the police should be able to nab lawbreakers before it's too late.
 
2013-03-09 03:25:55 PM  

clkeagle: The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.


I don't know about that.  I can go buy a new social security card in MacArthur Park in Los Angeles just about any day of the week.  Its not the employers buying them.

/Not saying some employers don't do it (looking at you Tyson).
 
2013-03-09 03:26:37 PM  
Bullshiat.  The correct answers, depending upon your geographic location:

1)  A & C
2)  B & C

/ oversimplifying liberally biased submitter and article are oversimplifying and liberally biased.
 
2013-03-09 03:27:26 PM  

BillCo: Without laws, we are just a nation of liberals.


Then why do all of the most CONSERVATIVE people I know here in Texas all advocate ignoring gun laws.
 
2013-03-09 03:27:47 PM  

skullkrusher: Emposter: skullkrusher: clkeagle: The identity theft which gets illegal immigrants a social security number so they can work and pay taxes? That's almost always committed by their employers, not by the immigrants themselves.

citation? I don't see a very compelling reason for an employer to commit identity theft in order to pay payroll taxes on an employee while effectively lowering their takehome pay making his wage offering that much less appealing.

It's the kind of statement that seems likely to me, though a citation would be nice.

In any event, assuming it's true, the logical conclusion is that it's safer/cheaper/more profitable to be able to have the illegals work openly with the protection of a false identity to prevent the gubmint from fining/closing the business than it is to try and have the illegals work while hiding them all the time.

I don't see the payoff in committing a felony to hide the fact that you're committing a slap on the wrist infraction while increasing the amount of taxes you have to pay and the wages you have to pay to have takehome remain the same


That could be because you aren't responding to what I actually wrote.
 
2013-03-09 03:31:35 PM  
The issue of the Tea Party is the government's wild overspending and fiscal mismanagement. Any concerns about illegal immigration (or abortion, or gun control, or you-name-it) belong elsewhere, although some activists with other agendas like to attach themselves limpet-like to the Tea Party and make statements in its name because it gets all the press and reporters try to use those lone derangers to make it look like Tea Partiers are a bunch of bigoted, wacked-out nutballs.


/Run-on sentences are just my way of saying "screw you" to periods
 
2013-03-09 03:32:55 PM  
Pretty myopic article and study.  Looking at just 1st gen immigrants and violent crime then using just anecdotes to show the converse related to illegal immigration
 
2013-03-09 03:33:16 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Ontos: /Besides... Isn't their very presence inside the country against the law? Are we also not counting things like identity theft in the stats?

That depends, do you count speeding tickets when you consider the crime rate? Because they are on the same level with each other


Identity theft is on the same level as a speeding ticket?  Since when?
 
2013-03-09 03:34:10 PM  
I work in real estate, and see lots of buildings that are full of illegal immigrants. They pay their rent on time, and the buildings are always very clean. They also take their money, and invest it back into the local economy, instead of off-shore bank accounts in the Cayman Islands.
 
2013-03-09 03:35:26 PM  

clkeagle: Is your Google broken today? I found these just on a very quick search.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Companies-pay-millions-for-hiring- il legal-2684214.php - related story on ICE's site: http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1201/120124houston.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870396110457614859002330 9 196.html
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national-govt-politics/immigration-auth or ities-take-aim-at-illegal-hiring/nWBPt/


you made the claim, you provide the support for it. Which you failed to do with these links.
 
2013-03-09 03:36:14 PM  

clkeagle: On the other hand, things like this happen when all the illegals flee an area:  http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/12/alabama-cant-find-any o ne-fill-illegal-immigrants-old-jobs/45829/


Things like what? Employers are forced to hire legal immigrants and US citizens? How awful.
 
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