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(Some Guy)   Activist judge dismisses jurors with pro-life bias   (lifenews.com) divider line 63
    More: Interesting, activist judge, Dr. Kermit Gosnell, infanticides, abortion law, jury selection, abortions, death penalty  
•       •       •

2102 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Mar 2013 at 11:55 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



63 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-03-08 11:08:05 AM  
Well, duh. He's not on trial for performing abortions, and so you don't want people who would convict him for doing something legal.
 
2013-03-08 11:10:38 AM  
How dare a judge want a fair and impartial jury!
 
2013-03-08 11:11:07 AM  
Prevent access to safe and professional abortions, and then complain about the horrific results.

If your religious conviction is in conflict with your ability to interpret the law, you have no business being a juror.  If you think eating beef is murder based on religious grounds, you should get dismissed from a case involving a beef farmer.
 
2013-03-08 11:27:43 AM  

Theaetetus: Well, duh. He's not on trial for performing abortions, and so you don't want people who would convict him for doing something legal.


Exactly this.
 
2013-03-08 11:30:30 AM  
How many of those supposed "pro-life" jurors also support the death penalty?

/Call them what they are. Anti-abortion.
//Or religious wingnuts. That would work too.
 
2013-03-08 11:37:17 AM  
I'm sorry that you don't understand how voir dire works, subby.
 
2013-03-08 11:57:53 AM  
That's a pretty sweet and totally unbiased news source you got there, bro!
 
2013-03-08 12:01:35 PM  
t0.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-08 12:03:26 PM  

Theaetetus: Well, duh. He's not on trial for performing abortions, and so you don't want people who would convict him for doing something legal.


Leave it to a lawyer to wriggle out of the facts. WHAT ABOUT THE BABIES, THEET?! WHO'S GONNA BE THEIR ADVOCATE?!
 
2013-03-08 12:04:19 PM  
Source: LifeNews.com, a blog no one's ever heard of with a politically issue-biased name
Factual Error in first sentence: Refers to fetuses as "babies", which is both biologically and English-language vocabulary incorrect, regardless of where you stand on abortion.
Sourcing fail: The "one report" that "indicates" their claim is from christiannews.net, which , even if you disregard the fact that everything it publishes is fabricated from nothing, would still be a secondary, not a primary source.

i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-03-08 12:04:20 PM  

Alphakronik: That's a pretty sweet and totally unbiased news source you got there, bro!


I was wondering about that -- I thought it's up to the prosecution or the defense to strike the jurors from the pool, not the judge.
 
2013-03-08 12:04:56 PM  
Uh, I meant to quote RexTalionis there...
 
2013-03-08 12:07:42 PM  
I suspect the judge is trying to ensure that the eventual verdict is not appealed. The doc is a homicidal nut and it's pretty certain he's going to jail.
 
2013-03-08 12:08:11 PM  

Arkanaut: Alphakronik: That's a pretty sweet and totally unbiased news source you got there, bro!

I was wondering about that -- I thought it's up to the prosecution or the defense to strike the jurors from the pool, not the judge.


Complaining about an activist defense attorney would be pretty dumb, wouldn't it?  No one would get outraged by an attorney doing his job.  Can't let facts get in the way of outrage!
 
2013-03-08 12:09:26 PM  
I also like how they quote the head of Operation Rescue- which is more or less a domestic terror group.
 
2013-03-08 12:09:38 PM  
Done in one
 
2013-03-08 12:10:24 PM  
Your blog sucks, subby.
 
2013-03-08 12:11:22 PM  
There's nothing about unbiased juries in the Constitution

PAUL/PAUL
 
2013-03-08 12:15:37 PM  

RexTalionis: I'm sorry that you don't understand how voir dire works, subby.


Pretty much my reaction. Judges don't dismiss jurors before a trial, it's the lawyers on both sides who pick and choose which jurors they feel will be prejudicial against their side of the argument.
 
2013-03-08 12:16:37 PM  
FTFA: "The Gosnell case is a watershed moment for the issue of abortion," said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. "The discovery of his horrific practices helped shed light on an abortion industry that has run amok without oversight or accountability for decades, and has prompted significant changes in abortion laws and attitudes toward enforcement in several states."

Just in case anyone's wondering about this unusual term (which seems to be coming up more and more often lately) . . . yes, Republican voters actually believe that there's an entire multi-billion-dollar per year industry built entirely around performing abortions.  This industry, according to Republicans, even has an entire advertising wing in the form of the glorification of sex in mainstream media and non-abstinence-only sexual education in public schools.  Nurses and doctors at Planned Parenthood and other women's health facilities -again, according to Republicans- are specially trained to talk young, pregnant girls into having abortions so they'll be desensitized to the procedure at an early age and thus come back to give the clinics more of their "business."

I learned all of this listening to AM radio on a trip through rural Missouri.
 
2013-03-08 12:24:47 PM  
Jim_Callahan:Factual Error in first sentence: Refers to fetuses as "babies", which is both biologically and English-language vocabulary incorrect, regardless of where you stand on abortion.

Actually, most non-medical dictionary references would agree with the definition of baby includes:
5.a human fetus.
 
2013-03-08 12:25:19 PM  
It's easy as hell to get out of jury duty without being spotlighted on the news.
I've been dismissed twice.
1st time: They realized my dumb 19-year-old ass was chosen for duty at my own trial. Yes, I was stupid enough to drink just over 3 beers and do a burn out in a public park. (Won't drive after even ONE beer now)
2nd time: I had planned a vacation to go rock climbing at El Capitan and the trial was expected to last a couple of weeks. All it took was standing up and shouting NOT GUILTY to get off the hook. Came damn close to contempt charges though.
Since then I've only been chosen once and I served. Awesome trial with public sex (pics and video included) and short bicycle police chase. Never knew justice could be so much fun.
 
2013-03-08 12:27:18 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Since then I've only been chosen once and I served. Awesome trial with public sex (pics and video included) and short bicycle police chase. Never knew justice could be so much fun.


With that kind of build-up, I was a little disappointed that you didn't mean "short bicycle" like "short bus".
 
2013-03-08 12:28:37 PM  

mrshowrules: Prevent access to safe and professional abortions, and then complain about the horrific results.


Ah yes, Philadelphia. Headquarters of the pro-life movement. Where every abortion clinic gets shut down.
 
2013-03-08 12:30:19 PM  

Alphakronik: That's a pretty sweet and totally unbiased news source you got there, bro!


yeah, haven't seen sensationalism like that in some time.
 
2013-03-08 12:30:25 PM  

Chagrin: I suspect the judge is trying to ensure that the eventual verdict is not appealed. The doc is a homicidal nut and it's pretty certain he's going to jail.


They should just skip the trial.  Amirite?
 
2013-03-08 12:33:00 PM  

zipdog: mrshowrules: Prevent access to safe and professional abortions, and then complain about the horrific results.

Ah yes, Philadelphia. Headquarters of the pro-life movement. Where every abortion clinic gets shut down.


I guess you missed the part about the people going there because they had no other alternatives left.
 
2013-03-08 12:50:23 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Source: LifeNews.com, a blog no one's ever heard of with a politically issue-biased name
Factual Error in first sentence: Refers to fetuses as "babies", which is both biologically and English-language vocabulary incorrect, regardless of where you stand on abortion.
Sourcing fail: The "one report" that "indicates" their claim is from christiannews.net, which , even if you disregard the fact that everything it publishes is fabricated from nothing, would still be a secondary, not a primary source.

[i2.kym-cdn.com image 460x419]


you're  wrong about your factual error. Read the charges. After a fetus leaves the womb and is alive, you call it a baby.
 
2013-03-08 12:52:31 PM  

mrshowrules: zipdog: mrshowrules: Prevent access to safe and professional abortions, and then complain about the horrific results.

Ah yes, Philadelphia. Headquarters of the pro-life movement. Where every abortion clinic gets shut down.

I guess you missed the part about the people going there because they had no other alternatives left.


i'm shocked such a liberal state as pennsylvania isn't giving away abortions to every man, woman, and child. or maybe that's why they passed the fraking nda law, those chemicals seeping into the ground water is really abortion pills! abortions straight from the tap!
 
2013-03-08 12:54:14 PM  

GoldSpider: jehovahs witness protection: Since then I've only been chosen once and I served. Awesome trial with public sex (pics and video included) and short bicycle police chase. Never knew justice could be so much fun.

With that kind of build-up, I was a little disappointed that you didn't mean "short bicycle" like "short bus".


That could have been even more fun.
 
2013-03-08 12:57:19 PM  
This is why, when it comes to anything unverifiable like your personal beliefs, you should tell the judge exactly what he wants to hear.
 
2013-03-08 12:58:00 PM  

SnarfVader: How many of those supposed "pro-life" jurors also support the death penalty?

/Call them what they are. Anti-abortion.
//Or religious wingnuts. That would work too.


Yeah, I didn't see too many complaints in the article about the death penalty.
 
2013-03-08 01:00:03 PM  

Theaetetus: Well, duh. He's not on trial for performing abortions, and so you don't want people who would convict him for doing something legal.


But he kind of is. Part of why he's on trial is for performing abortions after the 2nd trimester/whenever he was supposed to have stopped.
 
2013-03-08 01:02:22 PM  
Gosnell, whose squalid "house of horrors" abortion clinic and callous, has had almost flippant attitude toward his macabre abortion practices shocked the nation.

This is the poorest attempt at the construction of a sentence in English I've ever seen.

Go ahead. Try to read it.
 
2013-03-08 01:04:26 PM  
This guy is the strongest possible argument for banning abortions there is. He's God's gift to the pro-life movement. He needs to be Tillered ASAP.
 
2013-03-08 01:06:36 PM  

The Lone Gunman: SnarfVader: How many of those supposed "pro-life" jurors also support the death penalty?

/Call them what they are. Anti-abortion.
//Or religious wingnuts. That would work too.

Yeah, I didn't see too many complaints in the article about the death penalty.


i212.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-08 01:24:42 PM  
FTA: and kill perhaps hundreds of babies in grisly infanticides by birthing them and "snipping" their spinal cords.

I assume this is Lifer-speak for a partial birth abortion.

In related news, doctors birthed my neighbor's heart out of his chest in order to violate it with various cutting tools.  Surgery in general is often a grisly and violent endeavor.
 
2013-03-08 01:33:10 PM  

The Name: FTFA: "The Gosnell case is a watershed moment for the issue of abortion," said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. "The discovery of his horrific practices helped shed light on an abortion industry that has run amok without oversight or accountability for decades, and has prompted significant changes in abortion laws and attitudes toward enforcement in several states."

Just in case anyone's wondering about this unusual term (which seems to be coming up more and more often lately) . . . yes, Republican voters actually believe that there's an entire multi-billion-dollar per year industry built entirely around performing abortions.  This industry, according to Republicans, even has an entire advertising wing in the form of the glorification of sex in mainstream media and non-abstinence-only sexual education in public schools.  Nurses and doctors at Planned Parenthood and other women's health facilities -again, according to Republicans- are specially trained to talk young, pregnant girls into having abortions so they'll be desensitized to the procedure at an early age and thus come back to give the clinics more of their "business."

I learned all of this listening to AM radio on a trip through rural Missouri.


If abortion really is a multi-billion dollar per year business, then Planned Parenthood is the equivalent of a titan of industry. Why should we as Americans try to punish those smart enough to run their own small business? If anything, we should be trying to increase the money they bring in so more good paying, abortion-related jobs can flourish in this country. You can read all about it in my new book, "Condoms and Prom Night: A Horrible Combination"
 
2013-03-08 02:26:15 PM  

The Name: FTFA: "The Gosnell case is a watershed moment for the issue of abortion," said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. "The discovery of his horrific practices helped shed light on an abortion industry that has run amok without oversight or accountability for decades, and has prompted significant changes in abortion laws and attitudes toward enforcement in several states."

Just in case anyone's wondering about this unusual term (which seems to be coming up more and more often lately) . . . yes, Republican voters actually believe that there's an entire multi-billion-dollar per year industry built entirely around performing abortions.  This industry, according to Republicans, even has an entire advertising wing in the form of the glorification of sex in mainstream media and non-abstinence-only sexual education in public schools.  Nurses and doctors at Planned Parenthood and other women's health facilities -again, according to Republicans- are specially trained to talk young, pregnant girls into having abortions so they'll be desensitized to the procedure at an early age and thus come back to give the clinics more of their "business."

I learned all of this listening to AM radio on a trip through rural Missouri.


I recently moved about half of my 401K holdings to abortion sector funds because I kept hearing on the radio that abortion was a growth industry.   Are you saying that was not a prudent move?
 
2013-03-08 02:47:20 PM  

Grungehamster: Judges don't dismiss jurors before a trial, it's the lawyers on both sides who pick and choose which jurors they feel will be prejudicial against their side of the argument.


Actually, from TFA and several other news stories on the Gosnell case, Judge Minehart apparently also did some pre-screening in this case before the defense and prosecution even laid in.
 
2013-03-08 02:49:38 PM  
I don't think that is an unreasonable question as the question isn't that he performed abortions (a legal activity) the question is in how he performed them in an criminal manner.
 
2013-03-08 02:50:40 PM  
Ugh, Lifenews. It's one of the sites that just makes me feel nauseated- crazy, prejudiced people who border on domestic terrorism all advocating against something they don't understand basic facts about.

Also, they don't seem to understand that cases like this are EXACTLY why safe, legal abortion needs to exist. So no one is so desperate that they'd consider using a doctor like this.

Whole case is gross.
 
2013-03-08 02:58:43 PM  
Good. The man is psycho and he needs to go away forever. The last thing you need is to give him more grounds for an appeal.

Irony: If the anti-choice f*ckers had their way, more and more women would be turning to back-alley butchers like Gosnell. Cases like this are the very reason it needs to stay safe and legal.
 
2013-03-08 03:04:36 PM  
Saw this yesterday and found it appropriate

i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-08 03:23:27 PM  

Graffito: I recently moved about half of my 401K holdings to abortion sector funds because I kept hearing on the radio that abortion was a growth industry. Are you saying that was not a prudent move?


Just googled some graphs, so presented without sources (Guttmacher Institute?):

thepoliticalcarnival.netcdn.crooksandliars.com
The fundies are killing your portfolio, man.
 
2013-03-08 03:32:30 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: The Name: FTFA: "The Gosnell case is a watershed moment for the issue of abortion," said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. "The discovery of his horrific practices helped shed light on an abortion industry that has run amok without oversight or accountability for decades, and has prompted significant changes in abortion laws and attitudes toward enforcement in several states."

Just in case anyone's wondering about this unusual term (which seems to be coming up more and more often lately) . . . yes, Republican voters actually believe that there's an entire multi-billion-dollar per year industry built entirely around performing abortions.  This industry, according to Republicans, even has an entire advertising wing in the form of the glorification of sex in mainstream media and non-abstinence-only sexual education in public schools.  Nurses and doctors at Planned Parenthood and other women's health facilities -again, according to Republicans- are specially trained to talk young, pregnant girls into having abortions so they'll be desensitized to the procedure at an early age and thus come back to give the clinics more of their "business."

I learned all of this listening to AM radio on a trip through rural Missouri.

If abortion really is a multi-billion dollar per year business, then Planned Parenthood is the equivalent of a titan of industry. Why should we as Americans try to punish those smart enough to run their own small business? If anything, we should be trying to increase the money they bring in so more good paying, abortion-related jobs can flourish in this country. You can read all about it in my new book, "Condoms and Prom Night: A Horrible Combination"


They're job creators, then.
 
2013-03-08 03:33:28 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Also, they don't seem to understand that cases like this are EXACTLY why safe, legal abortion needs to exist. So no one is so desperate that they'd consider using a doctor like this.


Self awareness is not a strong suit for these people.
 
2013-03-08 03:33:48 PM  
Given the source, and the long and sordid history of flagrant dishonesty from the pro-life movement, I'm gonna have to find some independent reporting before I even believe there is a man named Gosnell who ran an abortion clinic in Pennsylvania and who is now a criminal defendant in connection with said clinic's activities.

I mean, those things are probably true, but if a pro-life activist told me the sky was blue, I'd have to go outside and check. (To be clear, individuals who are pro-life are frequently decent and honest people - but the activists are probably one of the most dishonest groups of people I've ever encountered in the public square. And I've argued with creationists.)
 
2013-03-08 03:43:07 PM  
I dismiss LifeNews as a source, too.  Rejecting pro-lifers is fine.   But elsewhere, it looks like Dr. Gosnell ran a butcher shop.

"Unlicensed doctor Steven Massof told the grand jury that he used scissors to snip the spines of more than 100 babies born alive. He worked for Gosnell for a few hundred dollars a week. He pleaded guilty to third-degree murder in the deaths of two babies allegedly stabbed by Gosnell while Massof assisted with the abortions. Gosnell's third wife, Pearl, a cosmetologist, pleaded guilty to performing an illegal, late-term abortion and other charges."

He also faces charges of running a painkiller pill mill that earned him millions.
 
2013-03-08 03:47:55 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I dismiss LifeNews as a source, too.  Rejecting pro-lifers is fine.   But elsewhere, it looks like Dr. Gosnell ran a butcher shop.

"Unlicensed doctor Steven Massof told the grand jury that he used scissors to snip the spines of more than 100 babies born alive. He worked for Gosnell for a few hundred dollars a week. He pleaded guilty to third-degree murder in the deaths of two babies allegedly stabbed by Gosnell while Massof assisted with the abortions. Gosnell's third wife, Pearl, a cosmetologist, pleaded guilty to performing an illegal, late-term abortion and other charges."

He also faces charges of running a painkiller pill mill that earned him millions.


Oh yea, there's no doubt he ran a completely illegal, hazardous and dangerous clinic and the whole thing is foul and stomach churning. What's gross though is that this back alley butcher shop is being used by "pro lifers" as an example of why we should shut down safe, clean, legal clinics and force all women seeking an abortion to guys like this.
 
2013-03-08 04:30:49 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I dismiss LifeNews as a source, too.  Rejecting pro-lifers is fine.   But elsewhere, it looks like Dr. Gosnell ran a butcher shop.

"Unlicensed doctor Steven Massof told the grand jury that he used scissors to snip the spines of more than 100 babies born alive. He worked for Gosnell for a few hundred dollars a week. He pleaded guilty to third-degree murder in the deaths of two babies allegedly stabbed by Gosnell while Massof assisted with the abortions. Gosnell's third wife, Pearl, a cosmetologist, pleaded guilty to performing an illegal, late-term abortion and other charges."

He also faces charges of running a painkiller pill mill that earned him millions.


Meh, better that than they're born into families that don't want them.
 
2013-03-08 04:46:53 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I dismiss LifeNews as a source, too.  Rejecting pro-lifers is fine.   But elsewhere, it looks like Dr. Gosnell ran a butcher shop.

"Unlicensed doctor Steven Massof told the grand jury that he used scissors to snip the spines of more than 100 babies born alive. He worked for Gosnell for a few hundred dollars a week. He pleaded guilty to third-degree murder in the deaths of two babies allegedly stabbed by Gosnell while Massof assisted with the abortions. Gosnell's third wife, Pearl, a cosmetologist, pleaded guilty to performing an illegal, late-term abortion and other charges."

He also faces charges of running a painkiller pill mill that earned him millions.


Thanks for the link.
 
2013-03-08 06:27:00 PM  

Arkanaut: I was wondering about that -- I thought it's up to the prosecution or the defense to strike the jurors from the pool, not the judge.


Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice. Not to be taken internally. May cause drowsiness; alcohol may intensify this effect.

It's actually a combination of both. Here's basically how it works, in at least most parts of the country:
* A pool of potential jurors is chosen.The jurors are given questionnaires, and interviewed (individually and/or as a group) by the attorneys and/or the judge.
* Each side gets a certain number of 'peremptory challenges'. In other words, each side can dismiss a certain number of potential jurors for any reason or for no reason at all (as long as it's not for an illegal reason -- notably, if one side seems to be striking, say, all the African-Americans from the jury pool, the other side can complain about that).
* In addition, either side can challenge any potential juror for cause -- there's a set of requirements that potential jurors have to meet, and either side can claim that a juror doesn't seem to meet the requirements. For example, if a juror is clearly having trouble hearing the questioning, that might be grounds for a challenge for cause, since the juror would probably have trouble hearing the trial testimony too. Or if a juror has a vacation scheduled in a week, that might be grounds for a challenge, since the juror might not be around for the whole trial. But unlike peremptory challenges, it's up to the judge to decide whether to grant challenges for cause.
* At some point, you whittle the pool down to the right number, and there's your jury. (There's a lot of variation here -- the jury might be the first twelve people who make it through the interviews without being successfully challenged, or it might be twelve people chosen randomly from the remaining pool, or whatever.)

So in a trial like this, the judge might grant for-cause challenges against strongly pro-life or pro-choice jurors (on the grounds that their feelings on a technically-irrelevant issue might bias their opinions on the case too much), or the parties might use their peremptory challenges to strike these jurors, or some combination of the two.
 
2013-03-08 07:10:14 PM  

Dinjiin: FTA: and kill perhaps hundreds of babies in grisly infanticides by birthing them and "snipping" their spinal cords.

I assume this is Lifer-speak for a partial birth abortion.

In related news, doctors birthed my neighbor's heart out of his chest in order to violate it with various cutting tools.  Surgery in general is often a grisly and violent endeavor.


Comparing open heart surgery to a partial birth abortion is ridiculous. Equating a lifesaving procedure with pulling a viable human fetus halfway out of the birth canal before killing it is frankly disgusting. 

I think women have the right to choose to terminate their pregnancy, and that this is well justified from a utilitarian and personal autonomy standpoint. That doesn't mean that we should try to rationalize it by pretending that fetuses aren't babies.
 
2013-03-08 08:28:27 PM  
Nor should we pretend that fetsues are babies.

As for the abortion butcher shop, every "pro life" voter I  the state, as well as the politicians and clergymen who control them, are guilty of creating an atmosphere where it could exist.  It's a good thing I don't decide how to handle it, because it would not be nice.
 
2013-03-08 08:51:33 PM  

jcooli09: Nor should we pretend that fetsues are babies.


Going to have to disagree with you on that one. A fetus is viable outside of the womb by about 24-26 weeks when the lungs have had enough time to develop.

I'll agree with you that we shouldn't force women to go to butchers to end unwanted pregnancies, but we shouldn't try to whitewash our feelings by telling ourselves that it's just some cells.
 
2013-03-09 12:40:08 AM  

reimanr06: Equating a lifesaving procedure with pulling a viable human fetus halfway out of the birth canal before killing it is frankly disgusting.


Which is why, in almost every state in the union, doing so has been flagrantly illegal for decades.  A second trimester fetus isn't viable (it can't survive outside the womb), and third trimester abortions are only legal if the fetus has fatal defects and/or there is no alternative to preserve the life or health of the mother.
 
2013-03-09 05:28:56 AM  

Sir-Marx-A-Lot: Gosnell, whose squalid "house of horrors" abortion clinic and callous, has had almost flippant attitude toward his macabre abortion practices shocked the nation.

This is the poorest attempt at the construction of a sentence in English I've ever seen.

Go ahead. Try to read it.


You must have missed this beauty:

At that time, the abortion business was officially closed but would do its latest-term abortions possible.
 
2013-03-09 08:16:57 AM  

Mithiwithi: reimanr06: Equating a lifesaving procedure with pulling a viable human fetus halfway out of the birth canal before killing it is frankly disgusting.

Which is why, in almost every state in the union, doing so has been flagrantly illegal for decades.  A second trimester fetus isn't viable (it can't survive outside the womb), and third trimester abortions are only legal if the fetus has fatal defects and/or there is no alternative to preserve the life or health of the mother.


Thanks for the heads up. Seems reasonable to me.
 
2013-03-10 04:09:00 AM  

reimanr06: Comparing open heart surgery to a partial birth abortion is ridiculous. Equating a lifesaving procedure with pulling a viable human fetus halfway out of the birth canal before killing it is frankly disgusting.


You are aware that two-thirds of all US states and the majority of European countries prohibit elective late-term abortions, right?  Even where legal, many physicians or their clinics refuse to perform elective late-term abortions for ethical reasons.  As such, the overwhelming number of late-term abortions are due to health concerns.  You know, minor things like saving the mother's life from a pregnancy gone wrong.  Such restrictions account for the reason that in the US, less than 1.5% of all abortions occur between 20-24 weeks and less than 0.1% occur after 24 weeks.  So the comparison, IMHO, is almost spot on.

As for being disgusting, I couldn't agree more.  Most surgery is.  And violent, too.  But I think the term you're looking for is "immoral".  That is an area where pro-choice and anti-choice camps are going to differ.  And my answer to that is, if you find abortion immoral, then don't have one.
 
2013-03-10 03:59:29 PM  

Dinjiin: reimanr06: Comparing open heart surgery to a partial birth abortion is ridiculous. Equating a lifesaving procedure with pulling a viable human fetus halfway out of the birth canal before killing it is frankly disgusting.

You are aware that two-thirds of all US states and the majority of European countries prohibit elective late-term abortions, right?  Even where legal, many physicians or their clinics refuse to perform elective late-term abortions for ethical reasons.  As such, the overwhelming number of late-term abortions are due to health concerns.  You know, minor things like saving the mother's life from a pregnancy gone wrong.  Such restrictions account for the reason that in the US, less than 1.5% of all abortions occur between 20-24 weeks and less than 0.1% occur after 24 weeks.  So the comparison, IMHO, is almost spot on.

As for being disgusting, I couldn't agree more.  Most surgery is.  And violent, too.  But I think the term you're looking for is "immoral".  That is an area where pro-choice and anti-choice camps are going to differ.  And my answer to that is, if you find abortion immoral, then don't have one.


I don't have problems with abortions in themselves. It's better for a woman to have an abortion than to have a baby she doesn't want or will not be able to care for. I certainly don't have a problem with obtaining an abortion to save the mothers life or if the baby has severe developmental defects. I just have a problem with the callous attitude expressed by you and others in this thread that equates a embryo/fetus (baby) with a tumor or other non-functioning organ.
 
2013-03-10 05:16:02 PM  

reimanr06: I just have a problem with the callous attitude expressed by you and others in this thread that equates a embryo/fetus (baby) with a tumor or other non-functioning organ.


For those of us who deny the existence of a divine soul at conception and who have a slightly higher standard for defining what is human "life", it is classification we're able to make.  If anything, I'd argue that anti-choicers are guilty of the opposite - that they're too eager to call a fetus a baby.  You did it yourself with your parentheses around the word.
 
2013-03-10 06:39:18 PM  

Dinjiin: reimanr06: I just have a problem with the callous attitude expressed by you and others in this thread that equates a embryo/fetus (baby) with a tumor or other non-functioning organ.

For those of us who deny the existence of a divine soul at conception and who have a slightly higher standard for defining what is human "life", it is classification we're able to make.  If anything, I'd argue that anti-choicers are guilty of the opposite - that they're too eager to call a fetus a baby.  You did it yourself with your parentheses around the word.


Lol. Who appointed you spokesperson for those of us that don't believe souls exist? Not I.
Obviously, we have different classification systems that arguing about isn't going to change. I will agree that a fetus is not a person in the full sense of the word, but then again neither is a newborn.
 
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