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(WPRI Rhode Island)   As we try to find $85 billion in cuts to meet the "sequester", here's a timely report that concludes that the $60 billion we spent re-constructing Iraq, was basically all wasted, to say nothing of the $767 billion we spent DE-constructing it   (wpri.com) divider line 141
    More: Sad, Iraq, President of Iraq, Deputy Secretary of State, Maliki, Iraqi security forces, Sunni Muslims, infighting, gas pipelines  
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1445 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Mar 2013 at 11:51 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-06 03:21:53 PM

BMulligan: JesusJuice: Ba'athist secularization was a brief lurch toward cultural enlightenment abruptly undone by the various breeds of backwards extremists endemic to Islamic states.  The reason the ME is so screwed up absolutely is their culture.  It's a culture which accepts violence as an acceptable, even preferable, means to an end.  It's a culture which is so wrapped up in paternalism that they require a strongman dictator to force them to behave like humans.  It's a culture which mutilates and oppresses women and values ignorance above knowledge.

For gods sakes these people are farking tribal.  Any outlook consistent with western enlightenment would identify these people as savage, backwards, and barbaric.  They don't need to be reconstructed, they need to be beaten, psychologically and culturally.  Their entire worldview is completely incompatible with western civilization, and it is this worldview, not their nations infrastructure, which is in need of reconstruction.

I'm currently reading a history of the United States from 1834 through 1876. Your analysis sounds exactly like the sort of nonsense that was in vogue at the time. It's based on an unearned sense of exceptionalism, an  a priori belief that western civilization is the standard by which others should be judged and the goal toward which they should aspire, and a healthy dollop of prejudice. It is also characterized by severe myopia regarding your own culture. For instance, to describe a society as "tribal" implies that Western culture is not - which is plainly absurd. Likewise your criticism of Iraqi culture as one which "accepts violence as an acceptable, even preferable, means to an end" - for an American to criticize any other culture on that basis is laughable.

In short, you can dress up your bigotry however you'd like but the fact remains that it says much, much more about you than it does about the people you're denigratng.


Nation states are tribalism writ large.

It'd be nice if all of humanity could consider itself one tribe, but we'd need some sort of extraterrestrial threat (asteroid, alien, whatever) or otherwise massive non-human threat to humanity for that to happen, and even then, we'd have divisions between pro-threat and anti-threat groups.
 
2013-03-06 03:25:35 PM

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Where'd you get that economics degree from again? Hollywood Upstairs Economics College?


If there are unemployed people, and I borrow money to have them dig ditches build bombs/fight overseas/whatever, I didn't fix their problem, did I? Once I can't borrow anymore, they go back to being unemployed.  That is, of course, unless there is demand for the skills that they have - and if that is the case, why weren't they employed there in the first place?
 
2013-03-06 03:39:15 PM

JesusJuice: BMulligan: JesusJuice: BMulligan: JesusJuice: Trying to "reconstruct" Iraq was always a waste of time, they're not ready culturally to enter the modern world. It would make more sense to deconstruct them back to thethe bronze ageage so their technological sophistication matches their cultural sophistication.

What a load of ignorant horseshiat.

How so?

Prior to the first Gulf War, what was the state of Iraq's middle class? Its civil institutions? Its infrastructure? Its educational facilities?

Do a little research on these questions, educate yourself, then come back here and we can have a reasonable, intelligent discussion about the Ba'athists failure to extend the benefits of Iraqi cultural advancement to the mostly rural Shi'ite population - a serious miscalculation, to be sure, which however in no way implies a general lack of cultural advancement in pre-war Iraq.

Ba'athist secularization was a brief lurch toward cultural enlightenment abruptly undone by the various breeds of backwards extremists endemic to Islamic states.  The reason the ME is so screwed up absolutely is their culture.  It's a culture which accepts violence as an acceptable, even preferable, means to an end.  It's a culture which is so wrapped up in paternalism that they require a strongman dictator to force them to behave like humans.  It's a culture which mutilates and oppresses women and values ignorance above knowledge.

For gods sakes these people are farking tribal.  Any outlook consistent with western enlightenment would identify these people as savage, backwards, and barbaric.  They don't need to be reconstructed, they need to be beaten, psychologically and culturally.  Their entire worldview is completely incompatible with western civilization, and it is this worldview, not their nations infrastructure, which is in need of reconstruction.


You know, that describes Tea Partiers, too
 
2013-03-06 03:42:29 PM
The MIC MUST be fed. Move along citizen.
 
2013-03-06 03:44:47 PM

MattStafford: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Where'd you get that economics degree from again? Hollywood Upstairs Economics College?

If there are unemployed people, and I borrow money to have them dig ditches build bombs/fight overseas/whatever, I didn't fix their problem, did I? Once I can't borrow anymore, they go back to being unemployed.  That is, of course, unless there is demand for the skills that they have - and if that is the case, why weren't they employed there in the first place?


FDR had them build projects like the Outer Banks in North Carolina which became the backbone of the NC tourist industry creating 1000's of perpetual jobs. There are actual projects here at home that can create economic opportunity. War is not one of them.
 
2013-03-06 03:47:07 PM

MattStafford: If there are unemployed people, and I borrow money to have them dig ditches build bombs/fight overseas/whatever, I didn't fix their problem, did I? Once I can't borrow anymore, they go back to being unemployed. That is, of course, unless there is demand for the skills that they have - and if that is the case, why weren't they employed there in the first place?


Dude.

Seriously.

Shut the fark up.
 
2013-03-06 03:50:01 PM
Probably been said upthread, but apparently GOPs idea of governing comes down to we spend, it makes no difference, they spend, the sky is falling.  Chicken littles, they should eabod or diaf, while they let our country make progress.  Vote them out
 
2013-03-06 03:54:43 PM

Ishkur: MattStafford: If there are unemployed people, and I borrow money to have them dig ditches build bombs/fight overseas/whatever, I didn't fix their problem, did I? Once I can't borrow anymore, they go back to being unemployed. That is, of course, unless there is demand for the skills that they have - and if that is the case, why weren't they employed there in the first place?

Dude.

Seriously.

Shut the fark up.


Hey now, he argued against me using a metaphor about building giant pyramids in the desert. Give him time and see if coconuts and/or fish trading come up.
 
2013-03-06 04:03:00 PM

MattStafford: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Where'd you get that economics degree from again? Hollywood Upstairs Economics College?

If there are unemployed people, and I borrow money to have them dig ditches build bombs/fight overseas/whatever, I didn't fix their problem, did I? Once I can't borrow anymore, they go back to being unemployed.  That is, of course, unless there is demand for the skills that they have - and if that is the case, why weren't they employed there in the first place?


You don't actually believe the United States is anywhere close to being at the point where they "can't borrow anymore," do you? Christ, people from around the world are still practically paying the Fed to take their money.

Also, the people that the government employs don't live in a vacuum. The pay checks they get are spent in the private economy, stimulating economic development and demand for more employees across multiple industries, which in turn will give those government employees (who have also developed new skills during their work in the public sector) better options in the private sector.
 
2013-03-06 04:13:02 PM
img196.imageshack.us
 
2013-03-06 04:32:46 PM

BMulligan: JesusJuice: Ba'athist secularization was a brief lurch toward cultural enlightenment abruptly undone by the various breeds of backwards extremists endemic to Islamic states.  The reason the ME is so screwed up absolutely is their culture.  It's a culture which accepts violence as an acceptable, even preferable, means to an end.  It's a culture which is so wrapped up in paternalism that they require a strongman dictator to force them to behave like humans.  It's a culture which mutilates and oppresses women and values ignorance above knowledge.

For gods sakes these people are farking tribal.  Any outlook consistent with western enlightenment would identify these people as savage, backwards, and barbaric.  They don't need to be reconstructed, they need to be beaten, psychologically and culturally.  Their entire worldview is completely incompatible with western civilization, and it is this worldview, not their nations infrastructure, which is in need of reconstruction.

I'm currently reading a history of the United States from 1834 through 1876. Your analysis sounds exactly like the sort of nonsense that was in vogue at the time. It's based on an unearned sense of exceptionalism, an  a priori belief that western civilization is the standard by which others should be judged and the goal toward which they should aspire, and a healthy dollop of prejudice. It is also characterized by severe myopia regarding your own culture. For instance, to describe a society as "tribal" implies that Western culture is not - which is plainly absurd. Likewise your criticism of Iraqi culture as one which "accepts violence as an acceptable, even preferable, means to an end" - for an American to criticize any other culture on that basis is laughable.

In short, you can dress up your bigotry however you'd like but the fact remains that it says much, much more about you than it does about the people you're denigratng.


You sound like a cultural relativist, which makes it impossible to engage with you rationally since this is a fundamentally irrational viewpoint.  If someone believes, as I do, that a culture can be considered successful to the degree that it provides it's members with wealth, happiness, health, and security, then western culture is unarguably superior to dominant mideast culture.

You, on the other hand, believe that the effects of a cultures influence on it's citizens is entirely separate from the basic merits of that culture.  This is a willfully ignorant point of view.
 
2013-03-06 04:39:35 PM

JesusJuice: You sound like a cultural relativist, which makes it impossible to engage with you rationally since this is a fundamentally irrational viewpoint.  If someone believes, as I do, that a culture can be considered successful to the degree that it provides it's members with wealth, happiness, health, and security, then western culture is unarguably superior to dominant mideast culture.


Only if viewed in a vacuum. And what exactly do you define as "dominant mideast culture"? The theocratic Islamic revolutions of the 20th century were all responses to western intrusion and especially to American and European interference when secular leftist governments were coming to power. That was the same "culture". If Jebhe Melli led Iran and a bunch of backwards methhead shiatfarkers from Kentucky led the US - a situation that is gradually coming true - conditions would almost certainly be reversed.
 
2013-03-06 04:57:28 PM
I'll see your $60 billion for Iraq reconstruction and raise you $100 billion for Afghanistan reconstruction:
http://www.businessinsider.com/100-billion-in-aid-squandered-in-afgh an istan-2013-3

Oh, and we're on track to spend tens of billions more trying to rebuild the place.  Projects that never get finished, corruption that has us getting billed at two or three time the going rate for work by .locals.
 
2013-03-06 05:00:27 PM

Sybarite: But sending pallet loads of cash into an unstable, ethnically divided country with no functioning government seemed like such a good idea at the time.

[www.tedellis.net image 719x520]


And now it seems they are trying to pay for it on the backs of the working class while blaming President Obama.
 
2013-03-06 05:03:11 PM
JesusJuice: You sound like a cultural relativist, which makes it impossible to engage with you rationally since this is a fundamentally irrational viewpoint.  If someone believes, as I do, that a culture can be considered successful to the degree that it provides it's members with wealth, happiness, health, and security, then western culture is unarguably superior to dominant mideast culture.

Your analysis sounds exactly like the sort of nonsense that was in vogue at the time. It's based on an unearned sense of exceptionalism, an  a priori belief that  western civilization is the standard by which others should be judged and the goal toward which they should aspire, and a healthy dollop of prejudice.


Pretty sure you did not address the point being made, but you sure got defensive when confronted with this country's history of racism and imperialism.
 
2013-03-06 05:07:50 PM

JesusJuice: You sound like a cultural relativist, which makes it impossible to engage with you rationally since this is a fundamentally irrational viewpoint.


I'd like to see you defend this assertion.
 
2013-03-06 05:16:22 PM

BMulligan: JesusJuice: You sound like a cultural relativist, which makes it impossible to engage with you rationally since this is a fundamentally irrational viewpoint.

I'd like to see you defend this assertion.


I'd kike to see you stick a pineapple up your ass.
 
2013-03-06 05:21:46 PM

pxsteel: Bareefer Obonghit: The only number that you need to remember is 9/11. Never forget.

Only time will tell if the money and blood we spent in Iraq and Afganistan was worth it.  There were plenty of mistakes made but Saddam and his sons were completely insane and there were terrorist training camps in Iraq.  We fought for months to get control of Samarra and Ramadi.  We have not had another 9/11 type attack in 12 years and let's hope it stays that way.  Al Qaeda did not die with Saddam or OBL, but you have to know that the war in Iraq and Afganistan has played a huge roll in disrupting the operations of the terrorist groups.


The war in Iraq has played a huge role in disrupting terror group operations?

Well, Blackwater did have to change their name, so I guess that's kind of a disruption.
 
2013-03-06 05:25:25 PM

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: You don't actually believe the United States is anywhere close to being at the point where they "can't borrow anymore," do you? Christ, people from around the world are still practically paying the Fed to take their money.


Precisely. "To be precise, these world investors were saying, we're going to lend the U.S. government $100 for a month, and all we want back is 6/10 of a penny in a month."That's an interest rate of 0.006%.
 
2013-03-06 05:27:03 PM
JesusJuice:...You sound like a cultural relativist, which makes it impossible ...

Everyone point and laugh!
 
2013-03-06 05:47:54 PM
It wasn't wasted, it found its way to Israel as it should have,
 
2013-03-06 05:50:22 PM

FeFiFoFark: The MIC MUST be fed. Move along citizen.


Mic is not the preferred nomenclature. Irish American, please.
 
2013-03-06 06:18:11 PM

Ishkur: MattStafford: If there are unemployed people, and I borrow money to have them dig ditches build bombs/fight overseas/whatever, I didn't fix their problem, did I? Once I can't borrow anymore, they go back to being unemployed. That is, of course, unless there is demand for the skills that they have - and if that is the case, why weren't they employed there in the first place?

Dude.

Seriously.

Shut the fark up.


"We've got a turd in the punch bowl."
 
2013-03-06 06:22:53 PM

Sybarite: But sending pallet loads of cash into an unstable, ethnically divided country with no functioning government seemed like such a good idea at the time.

[www.tedellis.net image 719x520]


Are you talking about Iraq, or the U.S.?
 
2013-03-06 06:59:26 PM
Yeah but Obama has been in office for a full term.  When is he going to stop blaming Bush for the Iraq War?

/what worse than a boondoggle?
//would it be a banedoggle?
 
2013-03-06 07:03:17 PM

InteriorDesignNinja: Yeah but Obama has been in office for a full term.  When is he going to stop blaming Bush for the Iraq War?

/what worse than a boondoggle?
//would it be a banedoggle?


Sarcasm?
 
2013-03-06 07:13:03 PM

FuturePastNow: Well, duh. Warfare is basically very large-scale armed robbery.

In this case, we assembled a crack team of con men, safecrackers, drivers, and professional crooks, but instead of robbing three Vegas casinos, we knocked over a 7-11 that had already made its deposit for the day.


Not to mention killing a clerk and getting a couple buddies killed in the process, all for a few bucks.
 
2013-03-06 07:57:26 PM
767 billion... what a joke.   Over time the Iraq war will have costs in the multiple trillions of dollars.  There are a lot of broken people and families we still have to pay for.
 
2013-03-06 08:04:53 PM

InteriorDesignNinja: Yeah but Obama has been in office for a full term.  When is he going to stop blaming Bush for the Iraq War?

/what worse than a boondoggle?
//would it be a banedoggle?


When Bush didn't start it.
 
2013-03-06 09:12:26 PM
But if the U.S. didn't use its massive military to invade other countries and waste billions doing it, then some rational people might conclude that it doesn't NEED such a massive investment in the military, and the taxpayer dollars might be used to actually do something that benefits the nation (infrastructure, education, research, etc.etc.)
 
2013-03-06 09:16:25 PM

Sybarite: But sending pallet loads of cash into an unstable, ethnically divided country with no functioning government seemed like such a good idea at the time.


Seeing that photo just gets me all stabby again.

The Bush Administration was nothing but clownshoes and rainbow wigs as far as the eye could see. They lurched from incompetency to incompetency. We should have a national holiday just to remember how stupid they were, as a warning to future generations.
 
2013-03-06 09:55:01 PM

JesusJuice: I'd kike to see you stick a pineapple up your ass.


I'd like to see a da go by when ignorant racists didn't reveal the chinks in the armor of their superiority. It should spook me how often it comes up, yet how rarely it gets called out. There's always more lurking under the surface.
What's even worse is how coolie you dismiss your opposition as irrational, as if they're just supposed to roll over and say uncle. To me, it seems like such a waste to slant the argument like that. If your ideas are so superior, they could stand on their own merits, and instead you crow about how operating on your level is ambove your detractors.
Even when your bullshiat is pointed out, you can't leave well enough alone, and with a grin, go and resort to insults.
I'd keep my mouth zipped until I learned how to debate, if I were you.
 
2013-03-06 10:23:02 PM
I saw a professor making the argument yesterday that USA didn't have the ability to project power without spending massive amounts of money, and thus would rapidly cease being a superpower since it can't afford it anymore.

Close to 800billion USD to topple Saddam Hussein. Hey next time, outsource it to someone more efficient.
 
2013-03-06 10:50:57 PM
I wonder if conservatives will ever admit W even existed much less blame the cowboy costume for the shiat he did to the country? Oh who am I kidding, the party of personal responsibility is to busy looking for liberal boogie men to blame for everything.
 
2013-03-06 10:56:49 PM
This crap lowered our moral standing worldwide.  If just fed the "American imperialism!" narriative. Then our banks fist farked the world's economy.  Because, uh, poor people wanted houses or something.

These assholes seem to think that we should run roughshod over the world (even including our own "poors") just because we can.

"New American Century."  Not one where we stand up to tyrants, or one where we commit to fight oppression, but one where the rest of the world see us as the oppressors.

Great.
 
m00
2013-03-06 11:23:15 PM

spawn73: Close to 800billion USD to topple Saddam Hussein. Hey next time, outsource it to someone more efficient.


Well, our problem is that if an army with an awesome-score of 100 costs X dollars... we're like... "but our army has an awesome-score of 110... FOR ONLY 5X dollars!!"
 
2013-03-06 11:41:32 PM
But, we had to, and sh*t. We totally kicked ass and made people realize we were perma-hard.

Total f*cking waste. Thanks, mom and dad for Vietnam Part II.
 
2013-03-07 01:08:53 AM

theorellior: We should have a national holiday just to remember how stupid they were, as a warning to future generations.


May 1 would be a good day for it.
 
2013-03-07 06:39:32 AM
Sub by, just keep repeating, as loud as you can,

THE SURGE WORKED THE SURGE WORKED THE SURGE WORKED
 
2013-03-07 06:47:01 AM

pxsteel: Bareefer Obonghit: The only number that you need to remember is 9/11. Never forget.

Only time will tell if the money and blood we spent in Iraq and Afganistan was worth it.  There were plenty of mistakes made but Saddam and his sons were completely insane and there were terrorist training camps in Iraq.  We fought for months to get control of Samarra and Ramadi.  We have not had another 9/11 type attack in 12 years and let's hope it stays that way.  Al Qaeda did not die with Saddam or OBL, but you have to know that the war in Iraq and Afganistan has played a huge roll in disrupting the operations of the terrorist groups.


Hey look, this guy still believes, he even used the "no more attacks since then" thing. But he forgot to mention yellowcake.
 
2013-03-07 08:43:34 AM

pxsteel: We have not had another 9/11 type attack in 12 years and let's hope it stays that way.


Lisa Simpson has a rock she wants to sell you.
 
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