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(WTOP)   A look at why so many of the accidents after a major snowstorm seem to involve SUVs with four-wheel drive   (wtop.com ) divider line 232
    More: Dumbass, four-wheel-drive  
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17468 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Mar 2013 at 10:30 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-06 09:06:17 AM  
"Four-wheel drive can be useful in helping you get going and helping you gain traction when you're driving especially, for example, up big hills," Anderson says.
"But when it gets very slippery, you begin to have problems with traction."


What, was the obvious tag out to a movie or something?

/all cars have 4 brakes
 
2013-03-06 09:07:33 AM  
Answer: tires
 
2013-03-06 09:13:57 AM  
People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.
 
2013-03-06 09:23:29 AM  
10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."
 
2013-03-06 09:24:53 AM  

vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.


So very this.
If you don't know how to drive in snow, the SUV can't help you, other than to get you further off the road when you loose control.
 
2013-03-06 09:29:36 AM  

sno man: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

So very this.
If you don't know how to drive in snow, the SUV can't help you, other than to get you further off the road when you loose control.


At least they are out of the way so people who know how to drive can keep going.
 
2013-03-06 09:33:14 AM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

6) There are young children in the 4X4.


I own a truck that can go 4x4 and take my daughter to a parking lot to do donuts after it snows.  Does that disqualify me?

/also sometimes take my hound-mix to the grocery store.  I'll come out and see her sitting in the driver seat.
 
2013-03-06 09:43:03 AM  

grokca: sno man: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

So very this.
If you don't know how to drive in snow, the SUV can't help you, other than to get you further off the road when you loose control.

At least they are out of the way so people who know how to drive can keep going.


Good point!
 
2013-03-06 09:50:35 AM  
Because dumbasses think they're immune and capable of driving through anything just because they're in something big.
 
2013-03-06 10:03:04 AM  

vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.


The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-06 10:03:34 AM  
Instead of a "gas guzzler" tax, how about a drive wheel tax?
 
2013-03-06 10:18:00 AM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


I'm not excusing the suburbanites, men and women, who drive their glorified minivans thinking they can just cruise through any condition, on the phone, with reckless abandon.  But around here (SLC), it's anyone with a big vehicle.  The F-250 drivers and Ram 2500 drivers and old souped up off-roaders  that are actually used for offroading all drive like morons when some snow starts to fall.  My impression is that these types think they are being cool if they gun it off the line following a redlight, or cruise by traffic at 45 mph ,when everyone else is going 25 mph due to road conditions.  It's not just the suburban SUV idiots.  It's anyone with a big vehicle who thinks they are "cool."
 
2013-03-06 10:19:33 AM  
I used to see the same thing in LA whenever it rained. Morans in 4x4's would fly along at 80mph and end up hydroplaning into the center divider.
Farking traction.. how does it work?
 
2013-03-06 10:31:47 AM  
I owned a couple of BMWs back in the day, and the owner's manual section on traction control had a big bolded statement as the first sentence:  Traction control does not override the constraints posed by the laws of physics.

Always good for a chuckle
 
2013-03-06 10:33:49 AM  
Why?
Answer: Women
 
2013-03-06 10:34:00 AM  
Because they think that they are driving a big, heavy, expensive SUV with 4WD means that things like traction on icy roads does not apply to them.

People are idiots...more at 11

Anecdotal CSB:

All female SUV drivers here in NoVa only wipe enough snow off their side of the windshield after a heavy snow because "oh, the car is too big for me to wipe off entirely"  Stupid farking hatchet wounds!!!
 
2013-03-06 10:34:48 AM  
4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.
 
2013-03-06 10:37:15 AM  
Nothing scarier than a soccer mom with her first SUV.  Another batch of freezing rain and snow here, which is the norm lately.  Especially on ice, 4WD isn't much help.  But, by God, they spent tons of money on this thing, and clicking into 4WD means total safety, drive like hell, right?  This morning though, it was some doofus in a Lincoln MKZ  (AWD) who felt bulletproof, until she saw the car in the median that had just spun out.  Suddenly, 70mph on packed snow and ice didn't seem like a good idea.
 
2013-03-06 10:39:37 AM  
4 wheel drive just means all 4 wheels are turning as you slide into the ditch

/Jeep herder
 
2013-03-06 10:43:05 AM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: But around here (SLC), it's anyone with a big vehicle.


When I commuted 30 miles a day on I-35 near Austin, I discovered that the initials "Z71" were basically a self-selecting identification tag for douchebags.
 
2013-03-06 10:43:28 AM  
In fact, an SUV faces the same risks as any car when turning or braking. In addition, engaging all four wheels doesn't help on wet or slushy roads, and it uses up more gas.

Perhaps engaging FWD doesn't help on wet or slushy roads in the DC Metro - but it (along with traction control) sure as hell does help in those conditions in states with "real" winter, such as MN where I grew up (9 miles from Canada) or WI where I currently reside.

4WD with slow speeds = win in most negative winter conditions.

Once you accumulate any real speed relative to the conditions you're pretty much screwed.  The scariest driving experience I ever had was one winter day I stopped for gas on a long (4 hour or so) road trip early in the morning.  When I came out of the gas station I noticed it had briefly rained - my windshield was wet.

I got back on the freeway and got up to speed just in time to see three cars spin out of control in front of me.  That's when I realized the rain had frozen the second it hit the freeway, changing it into a skating rink.  It's a REALLY bad feeling to realize you're going 65 or so and have zero traction.

Luckily I grew up with this sort of thing and had no curves in the road - I just eased off the gas and coasted until I was down to about 15 mph and then flipped it into 4WD and drove slow until I was out of it.  I got passed numerous times by people only to see them in the ditch a mile or two down the road.

/CSB and all that
 
2013-03-06 10:43:39 AM  
Oh yay, another SUV-bashing board.

/yes, I spend as much on gas per month as I spent on my first car, but my choice.
 
2013-03-06 10:44:12 AM  
Drove to NYC from Maine in a snow storm 3 weeks ago.
Drove back from NYC to Maine in a storm 2 weeks ago.

I drive an AWD V6 Highlander. AWD is awesome, but it does not overcome the laws of physics or allow the deduction of points from common sense (wisdom and intelligence -2 modifier). I saw SO MANY people in 4x4s driving way over the speed for such conditions and as I passed their stuck vehicles later on down the road I just hoped no one was hurt.

There is really little need for 4-HI on a true 4x4. Most people SHOULD go without it.
 
2013-03-06 10:44:19 AM  
During a recent "snowstorm" here in NC, local news was rife with stories of overturned vehicles. From the footage they showed, each and every vehicle, without fail, was an SUV. The laws of physics still apply to your big-ass grocery-go-getters, people.
 
2013-03-06 10:44:24 AM  
SUV drivers think they're unstoppable.

As they often find out, they are.
 
2013-03-06 10:44:55 AM  
Know the limitations of your driving ability and your vehicle. You don't drive a truck the same way your drive and Escort, and you adapt your driving to the road conditions. in other words, learn to drive, noobs.
 
2013-03-06 10:45:13 AM  

genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.


Particularly funny with the original Audi Quattro. Locking the diff (which they suggest for snow) actually turns off the ABS. It does mention that fact in tiny fine print...
 
2013-03-06 10:45:23 AM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.


That

2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.

Especially that.

3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.

I need a daily driver and something that will get me to the good fishing flats without getting stuck in the sand, and will allow me to drive around muddy East Texas without getting stuck, and will allow me to take mountain "roads" without a problem.  So not really this. (have an XTerra...getting a Rubicon soon).


4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.

That too.

5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.

Yep.

6) There are young children in the 4X4.

Can't be helped.  This summer, I'm going to take a 4wd roads with my 3-year old (currently 2 years old).  Banging around in the back.  He can take it....or will learn to take it.

7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.

Not this.  My father in-law was one of the biggest good ol' boys you would ever meet.  For some reason, he loved this damn toy poodle that went everywhere with him.  It rode in the truck on his shoulders between his back/neck and the seat.  When he took his boat on the lake, it insisted on coming along and curled up under the console.


8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.

I've used the rack on my XTerra for everything (except luggage) - wood, roofing material, boats, etc.  When I buy my jeep, I'm buying a rack to hold the canoe.  Last summer, I saw a guy in a Wrangler who had a hitch-rack.  In it were two ice chests and a huge, freshly killed elk head that kind of stared at the drivers behind him.  This was in the tunnel on I-70.


9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.

This is stupid for anything that isn't a mini-sedan.  I treat speed bumps like they are not even there...unless they are those 4-foot wide things near parks and schools (take those at normal speed and you will kill yourself).


10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."

Kind of agree but this doesn't bother me.  The XTerra for instance (at least the year I have) was built on the Frontier frame.  I still don't call it a truck.

But I understand the point.  I see people around here driving jacked up H3s with cages around their differentials and a trailer hitch that looks like it was polished.  I can't remember the last time I actually washed my Xterra - there's scratched all over.  The cargo area looks abused, complete with carpet that was ate away by battery acid.

Oh, and you forgot to add "Doesn't keep a come-a-long and tow strap in the vehicle".
 
2013-03-06 10:45:59 AM  
We of SoCal collectively ask, what's snow?
 
2013-03-06 10:46:59 AM  
4WD is a characteristic of some vehicles. It is not a magical license to drive any and everywhere without experience and practice in those conditions. Sometimes you just shouldn't be driving.
 
2013-03-06 10:48:15 AM  
4x4 and AWD are excellent for moving forward, but I doesn't help you stop at all, so moving forward too quickly can be dangerous.

I saw a guy in an AWD Volvo buzzing past all kinds of traffic in one storm. He was doing great till some one pulled out in front of him. Then he hit the brakes and went into a spin and I almost hit him when he crossed my lane. He ended up ass-end into a deep ditch waiting for a tow.
 
2013-03-06 10:49:00 AM  
I always tell my wife and her friends that 4WD just helps to get you going. Everyone has 4 wheel stop. This is followed by a pregnant pause. Then "ooooh!"
 
2013-03-06 10:49:07 AM  
Got a little subaru outback, and will never go back to two wheel drive.

The problem people have is F=MA. For christ sake, yes, four wheel drive will help, but it doesn't change the physics people.

First thing I do when it snows, no matter the car I have at the time, is go out to an empty parking lot and practice emergency turning / braking. You have to know the vehicle and it's limits, and each one is different. Slapping some safety features like ABS and AWD on a car doesn't change the fact that it's a GIANT HEAVY SUV.
 
2013-03-06 10:50:55 AM  
Four wheel drive DOES NOT mean four wheel STOP.

Get it?
 
2013-03-06 10:50:58 AM  

mysticcat: I owned a couple of BMWs back in the day, and the owner's manual section on traction control had a big bolded statement as the first sentence:  Traction control does not override the constraints posed by the laws of physics.

Always good for a chuckle


This is related to one thing my father drilled into my head, and I plan to drill it into my daughter's head when (god forbid) the time comes for her to begin her driving life. The laws of physics are cold biatches. They aren't TRYING to kill you, but they don't care if you live or die whatsoever. They will not bend for you, or anyone. VERY important for every driver to understand this, when it comes to winter or any other sort of driving at all.
 
2013-03-06 10:52:51 AM  
Lived ten years in New Jersey / New York, seen a lot of wrecked SUV's / trucks.

Dear idiots; having a heavy four wheel drive vehicle just makes it easy for you to accelerate, it does NOT help you stop.  And f'ing STOPPING is the problem in ice conditions.
 
2013-03-06 10:53:20 AM  

SurfaceTension: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.


For a turn with no arrow, that might be necessary to achieve a left turn, but if an arrow is coming anyway, it's best not to be inside the intersection when cross-traffic starts moving through it; if the road has an arrow, the cross-traffic timing was designed with that in mind, and doesn't have as lengthly a 'clear period' between lights. I've seen (and in DC mind you) 5-7 cars in a state of half-left turn nearly get T-boned by the first person through the intersection on a green, who is used to the 'green means go' motif.

Also, I've seen this lead to gridlock as there isn't enough space for the left-turns to turn into, as the cross road is synchronized to the cross-traffic lights and not fore-traffic lights, so oncoming traffic is completely blockaded by half-left turns even though oncoming traffic has a green light, wasting the entire green light for them.
 
2013-03-06 10:53:44 AM  

Sharksfan: In fact, an SUV faces the same risks as any car when turning or braking. In addition, engaging all four wheels doesn't help on wet or slushy roads, and it uses up more gas.

Perhaps engaging FWD doesn't help on wet or slushy roads in the DC Metro - but it (along with traction control) sure as hell does help in those conditions in states with "real" winter, such as MN where I grew up (9 miles from Canada) or WI where I currently reside.

4WD with slow speeds = win in most negative winter conditions.

Once you accumulate any real speed relative to the conditions you're pretty much screwed.  The scariest driving experience I ever had was one winter day I stopped for gas on a long (4 hour or so) road trip early in the morning.  When I came out of the gas station I noticed it had briefly rained - my windshield was wet.

I got back on the freeway and got up to speed just in time to see three cars spin out of control in front of me.  That's when I realized the rain had frozen the second it hit the freeway, changing it into a skating rink.  It's a REALLY bad feeling to realize you're going 65 or so and have zero traction.

Luckily I grew up with this sort of thing and had no curves in the road - I just eased off the gas and coasted until I was down to about 15 mph and then flipped it into 4WD and drove slow until I was out of it.  I got passed numerous times by people only to see them in the ditch a mile or two down the road.

/CSB and all that


Had that EXACT thing happen to me about 3 weeks ago going from Cincy to Columbus.

Only I'm in an RX-8 with shiat tires and RWD only.

Cars spinning out to the left and right, SUV's upside down in the median... I will admit that I got sideways once or twice, but I didn't have too much trouble reaching my destination.

/Learned how to drive in snow in a 'cuda
 
2013-03-06 10:53:56 AM  
It's partly that very few people are taught how to drive in snow and how to recover from a skid.  They go too fast, lose traction, panic, ram on the brakes and end up off the road since 4wd does fark all for stopping.

I remember a few snows back I was driving into my neighborhood and started to skid on the turn- lay off the brakes, steer into it, touch of gas, fine.  It's not hard to master- except for soccer mom in the SUV right behind me, who jammed on the brakes and ended up in the ditch.

Parents- take your kids out to a snowy parking lot the first time you get a chance.  Skid recovery is fun to learn, and it's a critical driving skill.
 
2013-03-06 10:54:18 AM  

Myria: We of SoCal collectively ask, what's snow?


I live in San Diego but go up to Tahoe at least once a year. When it is snowing you can tell who the flatlanders* are by the way they drive. Always amusing.

*I grew up in the North Country of New York State, so I am technically allowed to still call others "flatlanders".
 
2013-03-06 10:54:31 AM  

theorellior: Three Crooked Squirrels: But around here (SLC), it's anyone with a big vehicle.

When I commuted 30 miles a day on I-35 near Austin, I discovered that the initials "Z71" were basically a self-selecting identification tag for douchebags.


These days it's anyone in an Escalade.
 
2013-03-06 10:54:53 AM  
Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.
 
2013-03-06 10:58:06 AM  
Because Mr Mid-Life Smallpenis bought that huge farking truck/ SUV and thinks he's farking invincible, so he really can go 50 in 3 inches of snow.

Nevermind having to worry about rear ending the shiat out of the guy who is going 25 up ahead....
 
2013-03-06 10:58:19 AM  
Gear in L or 2, Traction engaged on my truck gets me almost anywhere I am willing to try.  Then again, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
 
2013-03-06 11:01:15 AM  
Anderson says too many SUV drivers go too fast in poor driving conditions, and that no car is safe on icy roads.

If they wanted to drive safely then they wouldn't have gotten an SUV, dumbass. There's a reason these things are marketed to women.
 
GBB
2013-03-06 11:03:37 AM  
Sharksfan: The scariest driving experience I ever had ...I noticed it had briefly rained - my windshield was wet.

This pretty much sums up the reactions of 90% of Floridians.
 
2013-03-06 11:03:38 AM  

mysticcat: Answer: tires


Oh, I'm sorry but thanks for playing. The answer we were looking for is: idiots.
I live outside of Seattle. When it snows I stay home for two main reasons:
1) We have big, steep hills that are not cleared or salted. You may think that driving in winter is easy. I grew up in Toronto and drove my whole live in winter, never even bothered with snow tires. But let me assure you that there is a massive difference between driving in a city that is aggressively plowed and salted and driving in a city where basically nothing is done to deal with snow and ice.
2) People. No matter how good a driver you are, it won't save you from being hit by an idiot or tied up in traffic for two hours a mile from your house because the roads are full of idiots.
 
2013-03-06 11:03:59 AM  
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1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."



Right on almost all accounts. Sometimes the 4x4 (aka F150) is used as babby-carrier due to lack of other vehicle ownage by one driving it...

//Points to self :-)
///has both dogs, baby and hunts. Lives in the country, actually has livestock too.
 
2013-03-06 11:05:27 AM  

SurfaceTension: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.


I wail on my farking horn when people do not pull out/play with their phones and impeed the flow of those behind them.  Not pulling out infuriates me to no end.
 
2013-03-06 11:05:40 AM  

It's a Trap!: Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.



They also think they can take any terrain.  Personally, if I see questionable terrain, I park and walk or turn around.

If you don't know that you yield to other 4wd vehicles traveling up (when you are traveling down) and you haven't practiced picking lines, then don't take that road regardless of your vehicle's "power" or rated ability.

Example, and it's fairly obvious, but if you can't see the line in something like this:

s14.postimage.org

Then go no further.
 
2013-03-06 11:07:38 AM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


is a lady
ftfy
 
2013-03-06 11:10:58 AM  

UberDave: ..
Oh, and you forgot to add "Doesn't keep a come-a-long and tow strap in the vehicle".


Yup. I hit the sand on Padre Island last December and to my amazement, saw a guy in a 4 dr. coupe driving in the sugar sand right up near the dunes. ZERO clearance underneath it.
There was NO one on the beach but us.
I sighed, waited until he buried it to the frame, then went over and towed him out with my Jeep.
 
2013-03-06 11:11:33 AM  
Has anyone mentioned yet that having Four Wheel Drive doesn't help you stop better, and that the laws of physics still apply?
 
2013-03-06 11:12:08 AM  
Three Crooked Squirrels:   It's not just the suburban SUV idiots.  It's anyone with a big vehicle who thinks they are "cool."

That's pretty much the root of it.  They think anyone driving a prudent speed is a pussy and now is the chance to wave their dick around and show what a badass they are by weaving through lanes, gunning it off the line and generally demonstrating to everyone on the road that they aren't afraid.
 
2013-03-06 11:13:37 AM  

Sim Tree: SurfaceTension: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.

For a turn with no arrow, that might be necessary to achieve a left turn, but if an arrow is coming anyway, it's best not to be inside the intersection when cross-traffic starts moving through it; if the road has an arrow, the cross-traffic timing was designed with that in mind, and doesn't have as lengthly a 'clear period' between lights. I've seen (and in DC mind you) 5-7 cars in a state of half-left turn nearly get T-boned by the first person through the intersection on a green, who is used to the 'green means go' motif.

Also, I've seen this lead to gridlock as there isn't enough space for the left-turns to turn into, as the cross road is synchronized to the cross-traffic lights and not fore-traffic lights, so oncoming tr ...


Not to take this thread off road, but I have a rant about people turning left.  Have they stopped teaching new drivers NOT to turn your wheels to the left until you start to actually make the turn???  I've lost track of the times that I've seen some nimrod get into the left-turn lane, crank their wheels, and get rear-ended, propelling the car into oncoming traffic.  Don't turn the wheels and you get a dent; turn the wheels and get a head-on.
 
2013-03-06 11:13:50 AM  

UberDave: It's a Trap!: Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.


They also think they can take any terrain.  Personally, if I see questionable terrain, I park and walk or turn around.

If you don't know that you yield to other 4wd vehicles traveling up (when you are traveling down) and you haven't practiced picking lines, then don't take that road regardless of your vehicle's "power" or rated ability.

Example, and it's fairly obvious, but if you can't see the line in something like this:

[s14.postimage.org image 604x453]

Then go no further.


Just hold the wheel straight and mash on the gas, right?
 
2013-03-06 11:14:34 AM  

Flint Ironstag: genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.

Particularly funny with the original Audi Quattro. Locking the diff (which they suggest for snow) actually turns off the ABS. It does mention that fact in tiny fine print...


I'm not sure but I think the differential was unlocking itself above a certain speed.  My understanding is that locking the differential was mostly used to get out of your parking space when there's 4 feet of snow over your car.
 
2013-03-06 11:14:55 AM  
In fact, an SUV faces the same risks as any car when turning or braking. In addition, engaging all four wheels doesn't help on wet or slushy roads, and it uses up more gas.

Yeah, um what the FARK does this have to do with SUVs getting in accidents? Topic. Stay on it...

"But when it gets very slippery, you begin to have problems with traction."

Not if you know what you're doing. Which means slowing down, increasing stopping times, AND NOT CUTTING PEOPLE THE FARK OFF.... Seriously, the last storm we had, I was driving on sheets of ice, doing just fine, and I had 2 different cars just pull out in front of me, close enough that would have been a problem on a dry road, and turned out to be about 2 inches shy of an accident on the icy roads.

Farking assholes.

Here we go: 4WD DOES increase traction. It increases it even on "very slippery" roads. Your 4WD can even help when turning, despite what this numbnuts says, since you have power to the turning wheels, as well as traction helping to push you through the turn. It won't help with braking, but it can help when using your engine/transmission to slow you down. You have all kinds of benefits that this moron can't figure out, but he DID get one thing right: overconfidence. That's the biggest culprit. People who think their 4WD makes that sheet of ice called a road suddenly equal the same road if it were empty and dry.

The weirdest thing about that last storm? I kept having people doing scary, dumb shiat and driving like morons. My buddy who drives on the other side of town had damp roads, but no snow and ice(Salt Lake is weird when it comes to weather), and THOSe people were driving like it was a farking blizzard. So yeah, snowy/icy part of town? Farking NASCAR. Dry, clear side of town? The Great Ice Storm of 2013 or something.

When I get the Jeep I want with the nice big tube bumpers, I'm just not going to be able to stop "in time" one of these mornings and hit one of these cock-knockers who pulls out in front of me. I'll be able to drive away, and he/she will be stuck with their own repair bill...
 
2013-03-06 11:15:40 AM  

Sim Tree: SurfaceTension: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.

For a turn with no arrow, that might be necessary to achieve a left turn, but if an arrow is coming anyway, it's best not to be inside the intersection when cross-traffic starts moving through it; if the road has an arrow, the cross-traffic timing was designed with that in mind, and doesn't have as lengthly a 'clear period' between lights. I've seen (and in DC mind you) 5-7 cars in a state of half-left turn nearly get T-boned by the first person through the intersection on a green, who is used to the 'green means go' motif.

Also, I've seen this lead to gridlock as there isn't enough space for the left-turns to turn into, as the cross road is synchronized to the cross-traffic lights and not fore-traffic lights, so oncoming traffic is completely blockaded by half-left turns even though oncoming traffic has a green light, wasting the entire green light for them.


Yeah I think the practice made sense when most intersections were little two-lane affairs. It's clearly too dangerous at these 3-lanes-each-way with speeds like 45 mph that you get in the suburbs these days.

The time savings is usually less than a minute (try timing a full cycle sometime) for maybe one or two people so it just isn't worth it.
 
2013-03-06 11:15:50 AM  

Endive Wombat: I wail on my farking horn when people do not pull out/play with their phones and impeed the flow of those behind them.  Not pulling out infuriates me to no end.


You should try driving in Seattle. You'd have a coronary. People here are the most passive drivers I have ever seen. Turning left without a green arrow is rocket science, apparently.
 
2013-03-06 11:19:00 AM  

Pontious Pilates: During a recent "snowstorm" here in NC, local news was rife with stories of overturned vehicles. From the footage they showed, each and every vehicle, without fail, was an SUV. The laws of physics still apply to your big-ass grocery-go-getters, people.


I don't think anyone in the Raleigh area with an SUV knows how to drive in snow/ice. They all think "4WD means I can ignore weather conditions!" and off they go, usually into the ditch or the guardrail or someone else's car. My Saturn has front wheel drive and I've never had trouble driving in snow/ice, even after we had an 8" sleet storm. Just drive slowly, anticipate speed changes and what the traffic is doing around you, and don't slam on the brakes.

/yes, it was 8" of sleet
//next day it froze into 8" of ice on the roads
 
2013-03-06 11:19:00 AM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


That's a BINGO.
 
2013-03-06 11:19:26 AM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


11) There is a stupid-ass stick-figure family on the back window.
 
2013-03-06 11:20:36 AM  
I thought I'd just chime in on what was one of the best days of my life. So I was driving in a really bad snowstorm and the roads were horrible, so I decided to drive slower in the interest of not getting into an accident. Well, some idiot just wasn't having that and decided that I was driving too slow and decided to ride my bumper; it looked like they were going to attempt to pass me when they spun out of control and ended up stuck in the ditch.
 
2013-03-06 11:21:29 AM  

UberDave: It's a Trap!: Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.


They also think they can take any terrain.  Personally, if I see questionable terrain, I park and walk or turn around.

If you don't know that you yield to other 4wd vehicles traveling up (when you are traveling down) and you haven't practiced picking lines, then don't take that road regardless of your vehicle's "power" or rated ability.

Example, and it's fairly obvious, but if you can't see the line in something like this:

[s14.postimage.org image 604x453]

Then go no further.


image.4wheeloffroad.com
I do so miss my Wrangler
 
2013-03-06 11:23:07 AM  
AWD Forester, studded snows, and I bought it because the color specifically matched the color of the dirt on my road.
 
2013-03-06 11:23:39 AM  

Gough: Not to take this thread off road, but I have a rant about people turning left.  Have they stopped teaching new drivers NOT to turn your wheels to the left until you start to actually make the turn???  I've lost track of the times that I've seen some nimrod get into the left-turn lane, crank their wheels, and get rear-ended, propelling the car into oncoming traffic.  Don't turn the wheels and you get a dent; turn the wheels and get a head-on.


Oh. I never thought of that - that must be why it's a rule. (It was on the MN Driver's test as of, like 2005 and is a state law. I don't remember it being covered in Michigan either in Driver's Ed or on the written test, but the '90s were a crazy time.)
 
2013-03-06 11:27:59 AM  
They also fail to realize that 4wd in these new crossovers or SUV's really means 2wd, with the driven wheels being the ones with the least traction. Unless you have a limited slip or locked axle, you are generally in this category.
 
2013-03-06 11:28:27 AM  
Contributing factor: 4WD = overconfidence, and overconfidence driving a vehicle that already has less desirable handling characteristics due to the weight, suspension and center of gravity = ditch.  Also tires.  Also, pickup trucks that have no weight over the rear tires and oversteer all over the place.

See it a lot in New England.  The design aspects of your SUV that give you ground clearance hurt your handling, and that fact doesn't disappear with snow on the ground.  That's why my WRX with snow tires is going to out turn, brake and accelerate your Suburban with light off road or all season tires, unless we're driving through consistent, 8" deep snow.  And that doesn't happen on the roads very often.
 
2013-03-06 11:29:41 AM  

UberDave: It's a Trap!: Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.


They also think they can take any terrain.  Personally, if I see questionable terrain, I park and walk or turn around.

If you don't know that you yield to other 4wd vehicles traveling up (when you are traveling down) and you haven't practiced picking lines, then don't take that road regardless of your vehicle's "power" or rated ability.

Example, and it's fairly obvious, but if you can't see the line in something like this:

[s14.postimage.org image 604x453]

Then go no further.


It looks an awful lot like a pretty mundane little hill you have there.  I've seen minivans and Civics drive hills like that.  Maybe I'm losing some sense of scale there, but it really doesn't look like it.

Yay living in Colorado with a Rubicon!
 
2013-03-06 11:30:43 AM  

GAT_00: Because dumbasses think they're immune and capable of driving through anything just because they're in something big.


Like the Kansas City football player who died after crashing his SUV into a stopped semi on the freeway.

He was driving 65 in in a bad snow storm all because he had 4WD
 
2013-03-06 11:32:41 AM  
for the past 15 years i have driven a lot of rental cars--some 4x4, some not.  grew up in the midwest.

you need to know how to drive in the snow, the ice, the slush--sometimes more difficult than the snow and/or ice.

the 4x4 is a great help, but if you don't know how to drive in the stuff, all the 4x4 does is puts you into trouble deeper than what you might do if you didnt have it.

having overconfidence in your attitude and no knowledge of how to drive in bad weather and bad conditions makes it worse.

imho
 
2013-03-06 11:33:48 AM  
Well, anyone that owns an SUV is- by definition - a moron or a prick.

They're an essentially useless vehicle, and they screw up traffic for everybody else because they are so big.

/here come the "But firefighters need them!" and "I live on a hill so I need an SUV!" people.
 
2013-03-06 11:34:31 AM  
If you happen to go off the road here in the south and a guy with a four wheeler shows up, just get out of the way! Those guys live for this kind of thing. Just pray they have a winch on the front, they do less damage.
 
2013-03-06 11:35:34 AM  

Endive Wombat: Because they think that they are driving a big, heavy, expensive SUV with 4WD means that things like traction on icy roads does not apply to them.

People are idiots...more at 11

Anecdotal CSB:

All female SUV drivers here in NoVa only wipe enough snow off their side of the windshield after a heavy snow because "oh, the car is too big for me to wipe off entirely"  Stupid farking hatchet wounds!!!

keep classy, loser

 
2013-03-06 11:40:46 AM  

mysticcat: Answer: tires


Whoa! Not so fast there, Bucky. You can have the best all-terrain tires money can buy put on your vehicle, but they're still not going to be worth the warranty they're printed on when it comes to solid ice. We live less a 1/4 mile north of I-40 and every year it's the same thing. It snows, the snow starts to melt and then freezes again overnight, and still, despite warnings from the DOT, some idiot thinks that just because he's in a big heavy Dodge Ram or Chevy Silverado with "snow tires" he can beat the laws of physics. Ya' ain't goin' nowhere, son, if your tires don't have any traction.
 
2013-03-06 11:42:31 AM  
1. First Lesson in snow country - it's not the car, it's the driver
2. "What's wrong with my SUV?" - answer - "The loose nut behind the steering wheel"
3. Lessons from driving in Washington DC snow days -- all federal employees are batshiat crazy and need to be instutionalized for our safety
4. Everyone in Washington area lives off the Federal teet

Lesson -

Do not go near Washington DC until God fumigates it
 
2013-03-06 11:43:42 AM  

Maud Dib: UberDave: ..
Oh, and you forgot to add "Doesn't keep a come-a-long and tow strap in the vehicle".

Yup. I hit the sand on Padre Island last December and to my amazement, saw a guy in a 4 dr. coupe driving in the sugar sand right up near the dunes. ZERO clearance underneath it.
There was NO one on the beach but us.
I sighed, waited until he buried it to the frame, then went over and towed him out with my Jeep.



A few years ago, I'm out at San Luis pass and there was this kid (20-21 years old) who drove around in an old 4x4 Toyota with a lift and lockers and all that.  He had a 12" fire hose attached to his tow hitch that was about 15+ feet long and ended in about 4-5 feet of tow chain.  I was driving off the flat from a successful evening of flounder gigging (about 1am-ish) and there's this "genius" in a Silverado who took a tight turn around one of the bridge pilings and buried his back end up to the top of the fender.  He had his wife and what looked like a 3-year old in the cab and the back was loaded down with night-fishing equipment.  He was begging me to try and pull his truck out with god-damn extension cords from his generator/light setup.  I finally convinced him that he would be out some extension cords if I tried that and was getting ready to drive them to the tool booth.  About that time, the kid shows up and starts hooking his truck up without a word.  It took about 20 seconds for him to yank the truck out of the sand.  Guy gave the kid $60...he made a fortune that night.  Talk about a smart and enterprising kid....I was impressed.

I've gotten stuck out there when the sands have shifted but I know how to recognize I'm bogging down and stop.  5-10 minutes of digging a tire with the damn shovel I don't forget to bring is all it takes.

/CSB
 
2013-03-06 11:44:56 AM  
They think the car is magic - like they've bought this gigantic talisman against weather. My +5 SUV of driving is no match for your weather! Except physics always wins.
 
2013-03-06 11:45:04 AM  

vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.


And in this area, snow is when all the can't-drive-for-shiat people get on the roads the most!!!
 
2013-03-06 11:45:31 AM  
I grew up in Upstate NY, not the snow capital of the country but it definitely had some pretty crazy winters. I learned to drive up there, mostly with front-wheel drive which works fairly well.

I learned very early on that just because you weren't driving rear-wheel drive, you weren't invincible. Front and four wheel drive are great for getting you out of your parking spot when you are plowed in or for slower city driving, but on the highway you definitely shouldn't be going fast. There is no reason to push the speed, the risks aren't worth it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can be cited for driving fast in adverse weather conditions even if you are still going under the limit.
 
2013-03-06 11:45:41 AM  

Endive Wombat: SurfaceTension: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.

I wail on my farking horn when people do not pull out/play with their phones and impeed the flow of those behind them.  Not pulling out infuriates me to no end.


as we few have mentioned reasons for this upthread (left turn has no where to turn since the receiving road is backed up itself and the size of the intersection)  but do red-light cameras have any impact on this?  light turns red and you are beyond the line and in the intersection, wouldn't that qualify for a red-light ticket?
 
2013-03-06 11:46:53 AM  
i403.photobucket.com">

There you go SUV drivers. Figure it out.
 
2013-03-06 11:47:10 AM  

genepool lifeboat: UberDave: It's a Trap!: Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.


They also think they can take any terrain.  Personally, if I see questionable terrain, I park and walk or turn around.

If you don't know that you yield to other 4wd vehicles traveling up (when you are traveling down) and you haven't practiced picking lines, then don't take that road regardless of your vehicle's "power" or rated ability.

Example, and it's fairly obvious, but if you can't see the line in something like this:

[s14.postimage.org image 604x453]

Then go no further.

[image.4wheeloffroad.com image 193x145]
I do so miss my Wrangler


I miss my unimog.

classicunimogs.com
 
2013-03-06 11:47:20 AM  
DNRTFA...

I'm just going to go out on a limb and speak from my experience watching people and how they drive.  People with any sort of 4WD vehicle seem to be under the impression that the additional drive power and traction makes them immune to the forces of nature.  "Turn on the 4WD, and nothing will allow me to slip."
Then they get all cocky and go out driving with supreme confidence, right up until they discover how wrong they were, and cause a 7-car pileup.  Most of which is made up of the same sorts of vehicles.

I've never had anything more than a front wheel drive, subcompact for my commuter car, and I drive through all sorts of weather.  Perhaps the trick is to just be careful.
 
2013-03-06 11:48:27 AM  
One word: Blizzaks
(or another manufacturers equivalent)
Yes you have to buy an extra set of tires.
Excellent traction on ice, snow.
And still drive with common sense. You WILL get where you're going.
Used Blizzaks since they came out (in a state that gets a lot of snow and ice)
 
2013-03-06 11:49:27 AM  
This is related to one thing my father drilled into my head, and I plan to drill it into my daughter's head when (god forbid) the time comes for her to begin her driving life. The laws of physics are cold biatches. They aren't TRYING to kill you, but they don't care if you live or die whatsoever. They will not bend for you, or anyone. VERY important for every driver to understand this, when it comes to winter or any other sort of driving at all.

Coming from a physics teacher that drills this into every kid every chance I get it is also the laws of physics that save you when you do it right.
 
2013-03-06 11:51:25 AM  

Jument: mysticcat: Answer: tires

Oh, I'm sorry but thanks for playing. The answer we were looking for is: idiots.
I live outside of Seattle. When it snows I stay home for two main reasons:
1) We have big, steep hills that are not cleared or salted. You may think that driving in winter is easy. I grew up in Toronto and drove my whole live in winter, never even bothered with snow tires. But let me assure you that there is a massive difference between driving in a city that is aggressively plowed and salted and driving in a city where basically nothing is done to deal with snow and ice.
2) People. No matter how good a driver you are, it won't save you from being hit by an idiot or tied up in traffic for two hours a mile from your house because the roads are full of idiots.


Very true.  I grew up in Tennessee, land of 2-inch snowstorms that paralyze cities.  I went to college in New Hampshire and drove a RWD 1987 RX-7 turbo all over snowy rods without a hitch.  I had these crazy low-profile snow tires on the back that worked great.  Plus the roads were always plowed.  Can't underestimate that.
 
2013-03-06 11:59:08 AM  

Explodo: It looks an awful lot like a pretty mundane little hill you have there.  I've seen minivans and Civics drive hills like that.  Maybe I'm losing some sense of scale there, but it really doesn't look like it.

Yay living in Colorado with a Rubicon!



That's the road to Lake Como.  Where you live, you are less than 4 hours away.  Go down 25, take 160 and go over the pass after Walsenburg.  Go like you are going to the Sand Dunes.  At the turn off of 160 to the Sand Ddunes, just go a couple of miles and you will see the BLM entrance below the Blanca Massif.  That's the road.

You should make it past that obstacle in your Rubicon.  When you do, you will realize there is no way in hell that a minivan could make it and will be lucky if you keep all your wheels in contact.  But you should make it no problem.  That obstacle is usually called Jaws .5 in reference to the real obstacles further up called Jaws 1, 2, and 3.

There's some jeeps in this video.  And for reference, the video doesn't make this road look anywhere near as bad and/or harrowing as it is (I've hiked the thing).  The guy in the FJ, when attempting Jaws 2 is crazy.  I think someone says something about him having no fear at Jaws 2.  They're correct.  That move he makes is pants-shiating if you know what that obstacle looks like in real life (doesn't look bad in the video).
 
2013-03-06 12:03:23 PM  
SUV's are worse than cars in snow in many regards. Every car out there has four wheel brakes, but most cars also have a lower center of gravity and more responsive steering. I have a 4 wheel drive, but I feel safer in my car when it is slick. I'm more likely to get stuck trying to get up a hill, but less likely to get stuck in a ditch or in a collision with someone else.

What I've found to be the absolute trump card is full on snow tires. The soft compound stays flexible in low temps to work a bit on ice and the tread lets it bite. They are actively worse on dry pavement, but two wheel drive with true snow tires beats 4 wheel drive with all seasons on the slushy ice mess I see in NY.
 
2013-03-06 12:04:08 PM  

realmolo: Well, anyone that owns an SUV is- by definition - a moron or a prick.

They're an essentially useless vehicle, and they screw up traffic for everybody else because they are so big.

/here come the "But firefighters need them!" and "I live on a hill so I need an SUV!" people


Oh, you don't have kids I see.

Useless for who?  I have a 6 year old and 20-month old twins.  When we go on road trips anywhere which involves a hotel stay here is what I end up bringing.  It FILLS the back of my GMC Yukon XL.  Kids take up the full 2nd row - and in the back...

Three suitcases
Two toddler cribs, portable Baby Bjorn
Large stroller for twins (small ones are crappy and useless with two kids in them - they get stuck in everything)
Diapers, wipes, snacks, food
Diaper bag
Coats, gloves, hats, boots, etc
Laptop, kids toys, the 85 other random things you need when bringing kids anywhere
 
2013-03-06 12:06:51 PM  
THIS is a snow vehicle:

carphotos.cardomain.com

Low center of gravity, good tires, good clearance, good weight balance. Limited slip center differential so you don't swing the back end around on every corner.

This is overcompensation for something:
static.cargurus.com
 
2013-03-06 12:07:45 PM  
Bad: people who don't know how to drive in snow and ice and plow into you because they don't know how to brake.

Worse: people who are so petrified that it's snowing that they drive with their flashers on at 5 mph and block traffic just long enough for the roads to freeze solid, so that everyone is stuck.
 
2013-03-06 12:07:47 PM  

UberDave:



I drive PINS a lot. This sign should really say, "Abandon all hope, all ye who enter without 4WD."
One day, many years ago, some guy hit the sand and drove the full 60 miles to the Mansfield Cut in a got-damn 4 door Lincoln Continental. He finally got stuck while realizing he couldn't swim across the cut. Took 3 big ol' 4WD trucks in tandem to pull him out.

i865.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-06 12:07:49 PM  

Maud Dib: UberDave: ..
Oh, and you forgot to add "Doesn't keep a come-a-long and tow strap in the vehicle".

Yup. I hit the sand on Padre Island last December and to my amazement, saw a guy in a 4 dr. coupe driving in the sugar sand right up near the dunes. ZERO clearance underneath it.
There was NO one on the beach but us.
I sighed, waited until he buried it to the frame, then went over and towed him out with my Jeep.


I learned to drive at age ten on the beach in Northern Ireland. Dry sand=bad. Very wet sand=bad. Slightly damp sand in the middle=good.
Of course on this beach the distance between the dry sand and the wet sand could be a hundred yards wide.
 
2013-03-06 12:07:50 PM  

Sim Tree: SurfaceTension: vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.

The problem with DC drivers (and I'm one of them) is that everyone is from somewhere else. Very few natives here. So you get a road full of people from all over the world, some places that don't even have traffic laws so much as suggestions, all bringing their own sensibilities to how THEY think everyone should or will drive. It does make driving more difficult when you can't predict what the drivers in front of you will do, or when you do one thing and another driver was thinking you'd do something else.

For me it's the left turn lanes that have the arrow, but when the arrow goes off there's a solid green and you can turn left provided no traffic is coming the other way. In the midwest where I'm from, cars pull out into the intersection, so that you can get up to three cars waiting to turn left. Then when the light turns red, those cars can clear the intersection. In northern Virginia, people sit at the stop line and don't go out into the intersection. It kills me every time that we have to sit through an entire cycle just because a person doesn't know how or desires not to do that.

For a turn with no arrow, that might be necessary to achieve a left turn, but if an arrow is coming anyway, it's best not to be inside the intersection when cross-traffic starts moving through it; if the road has an arrow, the cross-traffic timing was designed with that in mind, and doesn't have as lengthly a 'clear period' between lights. I've seen (and in DC mind you) 5-7 cars in a state of half-left turn nearly get T-boned by the first person through the intersection on a green, who is used to the 'green means go' motif.


Not to mention that crossing into the crosswalk/intersection on a green (non-arrow) light (until you are actually clear to turn left) is illegal in some states.
 
2013-03-06 12:10:51 PM  
Sharksfan:

I have 5 kids. A minivan served me just fine while they were growing up. No need for an SUV.
 
2013-03-06 12:11:47 PM  

JackieRabbit: Bad: people who don't know how to drive in snow and ice and plow into you because they don't know how to brake.

Worse: people who are so petrified that it's snowing that they drive with their flashers on at 5 mph and block traffic just long enough for the roads to freeze solid, so that everyone is stuck.


My Dad always told me that driving too slow is just as dangerous as driving too fast.
 
2013-03-06 12:12:17 PM  
4x4 won't stop you from sliding off the road, but it will allow you to get back on the road afterward without the assistance of a tow truck. If you know how to use it, that is.

Of course, if you are a good driver, you won't be out on the road in those conditions, anyway.
 
2013-03-06 12:12:24 PM  

cervier: Flint Ironstag: genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.

Particularly funny with the original Audi Quattro. Locking the diff (which they suggest for snow) actually turns off the ABS. It does mention that fact in tiny fine print...

I'm not sure but I think the differential was unlocking itself above a certain speed.  My understanding is that locking the differential was mostly used to get out of your parking space when there's 4 feet of snow over your car.


This is the original 1980s Quattro, the Gene Hunt Life On Mars version. It was just a basic diff lock on/off button. The handbook suggested locking the diff to drive on snow.
 
2013-03-06 12:14:29 PM  

Pocket Ninja: 0 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


You might be a redneck...
 
2013-03-06 12:15:50 PM  
• nothing will help you on ice - not tires, not 4wd, not anything - except extreme caution
• in snow and slush, snow tires are key - especially if you have RWD. the germans have known this for decades and do just fine
• there is no such thing as an all-season tire - with the possible exception of the Nokian WRG2, which is awesome and well worth the price.
 
2013-03-06 12:17:21 PM  
Ha!  It was laways hilarious watching SUVs and large truck drivers get trapped in the flooded streets during monsoon season in the desert.  They always thought their big cars were going to make it through the river of water.
 
2013-03-06 12:19:26 PM  
Has no one caught this "Anderson suggests drivers limit using four-wheel drive to roads with lots of snow that haven't yet been plowed." ?

Unless this is just a grammatical error, the expert is seemingly encouraging the exact opposite of the article's point...
'If you do drive 4 wheel drive, make sure there is a fark ton of snow and the road hasn't been plowed..otherwise stay off the road'
 
2013-03-06 12:19:59 PM  
...   ≠ four-wheel stop

Two-wheel drive drivers often don't get enough traction to make that mistake.
 
2013-03-06 12:20:39 PM  
Oh, I just have to share.  The other week in St. Louis we got dumped on.  I had to go to work that night.  I took it easy and got there in one piece.  Only one lane was open on the highway.  I had this assclown running up on me, flashing his lights, honking, etc.  He made a couple of failed attempts to pass me, but there was really no way for him to pass.  I was cruising about 30 (I was pacing myself behind the snow plow).  As I exited, he got off with me, pulled up next to me, rolled own his window and accused my mom and I of incest, then floored it right through the red light.  He tried to turn left and instead kept going straight into a guardrail.  After the light changed, I went by nice and slow and gave him a little wave.  What a waste of an Escalade.
 
2013-03-06 12:22:34 PM  
I drive a Jeep wrangler with mud terrain tires that have a really aggressive tread pattern. All that means is that if I get stuck I can still get myself out of the ditch, it does not mean I can drive on the highway as if it's a dry and sunny. I generally see pickup trucks and luxury SUVs in the ditch. I'll winch them out if there are children present, because the kid had nothing to do with thier parent driving like an idiot.
 
2013-03-06 12:24:04 PM  

Too Pretty For Prison: Oh, I just have to share.  The other week in St. Louis we got dumped on.  I had to go to work that night.  I took it easy and got there in one piece.  Only one lane was open on the highway.  I had this assclown running up on me, flashing his lights, honking, etc.  He made a couple of failed attempts to pass me, but there was really no way for him to pass.  I was cruising about 30 (I was pacing myself behind the snow plow).  As I exited, he got off with me, pulled up next to me, rolled own his window and accused my mom and I of incest, then floored it right through the red light.  He tried to turn left and instead kept going straight into a guardrail.  After the light changed, I went by nice and slow and gave him a little wave.  What a waste of an Escalade.


That is what dashcams are made for. So you can post it to Youtube and we can all laugh.
 
2013-03-06 12:27:40 PM  

Earpj: I have 5 kids. A minivan served me just fine while they were growing up. No need for an SUV.


Well, to each their own.  No way a mini-van would pull our boat though, and I don't think I'd want to drive one in the winter in the northern plains even with FWD/AWD.
 
2013-03-06 12:28:58 PM  

theorellior: Three Crooked Squirrels: But around here (SLC), it's anyone with a big vehicle.

When I commuted 30 miles a day on I-35 near Austin, I discovered that the initials "Z71" were basically a self-selecting identification tag for douchebags.


That is a horseshiat area of the freeway any way. But you are right.
Faribault
 
2013-03-06 12:29:30 PM  

Explodo: UberDave: It's a Trap!: Because every farker with 4 wheel drive thinks it makes them invincible in ANY weather condition.  I had some dumb fark in an SUV go barreling by me in horrendously thick fog.  I was unaware 4 wheel drive granted you x-ray vision.


They also think they can take any terrain.  Personally, if I see questionable terrain, I park and walk or turn around.

If you don't know that you yield to other 4wd vehicles traveling up (when you are traveling down) and you haven't practiced picking lines, then don't take that road regardless of your vehicle's "power" or rated ability.

Example, and it's fairly obvious, but if you can't see the line in something like this:

[s14.postimage.org image 604x453]

Then go no further.

It looks an awful lot like a pretty mundane little hill you have there.  I've seen minivans and Civics drive hills like that.  Maybe I'm losing some sense of scale there, but it really doesn't look like it.

Yay living in Colorado with a Rubicon!


Yay for living in California where the trail your Jeep is named for is ;)
 
2013-03-06 12:30:07 PM  

vernonFL: People get overconfident

People in the DC metro area can't drive for shiate. No, really, people here can't drive, especially in snow.


Do tell, which part of this planet contains the humans who do know how to drive, since every area gets labeled with "no one around here knows how to drive in the snow".
 
2013-03-06 12:30:53 PM  

Maud Dib: UberDave:


I drive PINS a lot. This sign should really say, "Abandon all hope, all ye who enter without 4WD."
One day, many years ago, some guy hit the sand and drove the full 60 miles to the Mansfield Cut in a got-damn 4 door Lincoln Continental. He finally got stuck while realizing he couldn't swim across the cut. Took 3 big ol' 4WD trucks in tandem to pull him out.

[i865.photobucket.com image 850x662]


That's insane.  I haven't been down there in years and never go further than 20-30 miles.  I need to head back sometime soon.  Maybe I can figure out how to camp out there without being covered in sand the entire time.
 
2013-03-06 12:32:43 PM  
That's why I drive on the median during a snow storm and then skid onto the road.
 
2013-03-06 12:33:48 PM  
JackieRabbit:  drive with their flashers on

I hate people that do this.

"Oh no, it's raining, better put my flashers on and drive 15mph in the middle lane on the interstate!"

If the weather has degraded to the point that you feel you are enough of a hazard that you need to put your hazard lights on, then get the fark off of the road.
 
2013-03-06 12:35:17 PM  

Pocket Ninja: 4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.


If you are referring to the gadget for lifting a wheelchair up into the vehicle, the same families who have a wheelchair-bound person may also have legitimate concerns about being able to get that person somewhere despite a snowstorm.
 
2013-03-06 12:42:18 PM  

FlashHarry: nothing will help you on ice - not tires, not 4wd, not anything - except extreme caution


Actually, what can help is colder temps. "Warm" ice is quite slippery (the theory being a layer of water is more easily formed, which is what makes it slippery). If the ice is cold enough, it has traction like concrete.
 
2013-03-06 12:42:20 PM  
Having lived in Colorado for fourteen years, I can attest to the truth of this. I have no idea exactly how many 4WD vehicles (trucks, SUVs, whatever) I saw off the road and down an embankment during that time, but it had to be in the dozens. Driving from Denver to any ski area in the snow, you were sure to see at least two, three, four rigs on their side (or their roof). My little Honda did just fine, however. Keep you speed down, don't make sudden lane changes, and PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE OTHER GUY IS DOING.
 
2013-03-06 12:45:13 PM  

Sharksfan: Earpj: I have 5 kids. A minivan served me just fine while they were growing up. No need for an SUV.

Well, to each their own.  No way a mini-van would pull our boat though, and I don't think I'd want to drive one in the winter in the northern plains even with FWD/AWD.


Must have a hell of a boat that for the northern plains that exceeds the 3,500lbs capacity of most modern minvans.

Don't boat, but its nice to be able to put large items in the back of the van.  4x8 plywood fits well with the rear seats down and mid seats out.
 
2013-03-06 12:48:13 PM  
Pocket Ninja:10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


I would like to add

2b) The 4x4 is lumped with snow except the little bit to let the driver see out the front window.
11) the 4x4 does not have its lights on in the middle of the day while its snowing
 
2013-03-06 12:49:43 PM  

mysticcat: Answer: tires


This. I have a 4wd suv that I take out yo the trails all the time but my current tires can not handle the mud at all. Half a mile in and my tires are so caked with mud they are useless they are barely even rudders at that point. The next set are going yo be a good BFG off road tire.
 
2013-03-06 12:51:41 PM  

wingnut396: Must have a hell of a boat that for the northern plains that exceeds the 3,500lbs capacity of most modern minvans.


Dry weight of the 22 foot Pontoon + 150Hp engine is something like 3200 pounds - that's before gas, gear, etc, so it's borderline.
 
2013-03-06 12:52:48 PM  
Oh, and for God's sake, leave a little room between you and the car in front of you!
 
2013-03-06 12:54:30 PM  

Myria: We of SoCal collectively ask, what's snow?


It's that white shiat they have up on Big Bear.
 
2013-03-06 12:54:37 PM  
Yes tires do make a hell of a difference. I have Goodyear MTRs on mine and they are not loud but they have knobs which provide good grip in rain and snow but suck on black top. There are also certain vehicles which should not have 4wheel anything because they are useless in it.

/Drives a 2003 Jeep Wrangler LJ
//Rubicon
///Dana 44 nuff said.
////not stupid enough to forget being safe
 
2013-03-06 12:55:34 PM  

Sharksfan: Perhaps engaging FWD doesn't help on wet or slushy roads in the DC Metro - but it (along with traction control) sure as hell does help in those conditions in states with "real" winter, such as MN where I grew up (9 miles from Canada) or WI where I currently reside.

4WD with slow speeds = win in most negative winter conditions.


In those areas, it's really only the extra ground clearance that helps. It's why the upper Midwest features so many beater FWD sedans. You rarely need 4WD if you're trying to stay on a road.
 
2013-03-06 12:55:36 PM  
Reason #1: Most people who own an SUV don't know how to drive it and only bought in the belief that it would help them survive the inevitable accident.
 
2013-03-06 12:56:17 PM  
Sharksfan:
Well, to each their own.  No way a mini-van would pull our boat though, and I don't think I'd want to drive one in the winter in the northern plains even with FWD/AWD.

Maybe not. 

Sorry if I missed it, but I remember your post being about fitting kid stuff. That's what I was replying to, not truck stuff.
 
2013-03-06 12:58:41 PM  

Earpj: Sorry if I missed it, but I remember your post being about fitting kid stuff. That's what I was replying to, not truck stuff.


Like anything there's multiple reasons.  We actually tried several vehicles before we bought the giant truck.  I think we amused the sales guys because we'd show up with all of our stuff (I had a hitch extension thing for some of it) and see which vehicles it would fit in.

Most didn't fit it.  Even a GMC Acadia wasn't big enough, and they are pretty decent sized vehicles.
 
2013-03-06 12:58:53 PM  

titwrench: mysticcat: Answer: tires

This. I have a 4wd suv that I take out yo the trails all the time but my current tires can not handle the mud at all. Half a mile in and my tires are so caked with mud they are useless they are barely even rudders at that point. The next set are going yo be a good BFG off road tire.


Good idea. Let us know how they do on SOLID ICE.
 
2013-03-06 01:00:24 PM  

dv-ous: Gough: Not to take this thread off road, but I have a rant about people turning left.  Have they stopped teaching new drivers NOT to turn your wheels to the left until you start to actually make the turn???  I've lost track of the times that I've seen some nimrod get into the left-turn lane, crank their wheels, and get rear-ended, propelling the car into oncoming traffic.  Don't turn the wheels and you get a dent; turn the wheels and get a head-on.

Oh. I never thought of that - that must be why it's a rule. (It was on the MN Driver's test as of, like 2005 and is a state law. I don't remember it being covered in Michigan either in Driver's Ed or on the written test, but the '90s were a crazy time.)


I'll follow you guys offroad (even though I'm just in a FWD compact).

Weird traffic advice I heard was that while waiting to turn left at a busy green 4-way stoplight, you should go in and "claim"the intersection, so if it turns red, you can turn left in front of the opposing traffic when they come to a halt. And therefore keep your queue of left turn traffic moving.

I never did this, since I figure you'd get in the way of ambulances / firetrucks that might come along. And also, more congested cities have "don't block the box" signs to keep people from sitting in the intersection. But I do do the left turn on yellow arrow thing if it looks safe.
 
2013-03-06 01:01:13 PM  

Jument: Endive Wombat: I wail on my farking horn when people do not pull out/play with their phones and impeed the flow of those behind them.  Not pulling out infuriates me to no end.

You should try driving in Seattle. You'd have a coronary. People here are the most passive drivers I have ever seen. Turning left without a green arrow is rocket science, apparently.


When I first moved here, I had this idea that Seattle drivers must be expert drivers because of the slick road conditions they drive through so often.  Silly me!  I have come to find out otherwise.
 
2013-03-06 01:01:13 PM  
almost all "SUV" in america with 4x4 capacity have NO control over which wheel the power goes to, which makes them butt-ass worthless.

without some kind of traction control system, its shiat.
 
2013-03-06 01:03:51 PM  
Sharksfan:

Like anything there's multiple reasons.  We actually tried several vehicles before we bought the giant truck.  I think we amused the sales guys because we'd show up with all of our stuff (I had a hitch extension thing for some of it) and see which vehicles it would fit in.

Most didn't fit it.  Even a GMC Acadia wasn't big enough, and they are pretty decent sized vehicles.


True enough. 

I looked at a Dodge Dakota before I bought my last van. There was hump in the back. How was I supposed to fit my double stroller AND groceries back there? 
Rediculous.
 
2013-03-06 01:03:51 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Particularly funny with the original Audi Quattro. Locking the diff (which they suggest for snow) actually turns off the ABS. It does mention that fact in tiny fine print...


You actually stop faster in snow with ABS off.

\As to whether you stop straight...
\\In snow (or gravel), plowing is faster than a friction stop. ABS prevents plowing.
 
2013-03-06 01:04:42 PM  

offmymeds: Let us know how they do on SOLID ICE.


Is there any other kind of ice?
 
2013-03-06 01:07:04 PM  
It's pretty simple, people who own 4 wheel drives are more likely to go out in the snow thinking the 4 wheel drive means they can drive in it with no problem. Therefore they are out in greater numbers and tend towards less caution.
 
2013-03-06 01:07:23 PM  

lilbjorn: Reason #1: Most people who own an SUV don't know how to drive it and only bought in the belief that it would help them survive the inevitable accident.


So very, very, very true. SUVs today are nothing but mini-vans for image conscious women (and men). What's worse is that many of them do not have AWD/4WD and those that do are generally only sold to soccer moms concerned about "safety."

This is coming from someone who owns and AWD vehicle. But I didn't buy it thinking it was somehow "safer" because all 4 wheels propel the vehicle, but rather that I'd be able to tackle all the hills between my house and work which are almost never plowed during the few decent snows we do get each winter. It's a Legacy sedan btw, nothing bigger than the average family sedan, just more ground clearance and AWD to make it go where I want it to.

I learned how to use AWD on Cheat Mountain (Snowshoe Mountain) in WV when I worked there for two years. AWD doesn't help you stop, it  can help you turn on snow if you know how to use it right (you have to get it sideways in the turn and do a bit of the Scandinavian flick) but unless you're doing it right, it actually can contribute to understeer, and it doesn't mean you can drive at regular speeds in poor weather.
 
2013-03-06 01:09:41 PM  

BHShaman: Drove to NYC from Maine in a snow storm 3 weeks ago.
Drove back from NYC to Maine in a storm 2 weeks ago.

I drive an AWD V6 Highlander. AWD is awesome, but it does not overcome the laws of physics or allow the deduction of points from common sense (wisdom and intelligence -2 modifier). I saw SO MANY people in 4x4s driving way over the speed for such conditions and as I passed their stuck vehicles later on down the road I just hoped no one was hurt.

There is really little need for 4-HI on a true 4x4. Most people SHOULD go without it.


4-hi is really good for sand, but that is a different kind of driving condition

/ used to live in Galveston and needed it for the beach and west end fishing spots.
// now live in metro Detroit and trying not to be that guy with the Texas tags in the ditch during a snow storm
/// because 3 is a magic number
 
2013-03-06 01:10:41 PM  
Well subby, I rack it up to a lack of understanding the property of inertia.
 
2013-03-06 01:10:44 PM  
Very simple, 4 wheel drive is for going not slowing.
 
2013-03-06 01:12:00 PM  

Evil Mackerel: Well subby, I rack it up to a lack of understanding the properties of inertia.


FTFM
 
2013-03-06 01:13:04 PM  
Without reading the article:

douche/idiot drivers who think 4WD means something other than "power is going to all four wheels"
top-heavy POS vehicles

Article:

pretty much that
 
2013-03-06 01:16:13 PM  

This text is now purple: offmymeds: Let us know how they do on SOLID ICE.

Is there any other kind of ice?


Touché!
 
2013-03-06 01:16:49 PM  
Lexus RX drivers. Self-entitled bizzles who... wait, this was about driving in snow? Never mind.
 
2013-03-06 01:21:44 PM  

JustFish: Got a little subaru outback, and will never go back to two wheel drive.

The problem people have is F=MA. For christ sake, yes, four wheel drive will help, but it doesn't change the physics people.

First thing I do when it snows, no matter the car I have at the time, is go out to an empty parking lot and practice emergency turning / braking. You have to know the vehicle and it's limits, and each one is different. Slapping some safety features like ABS and AWD on a car doesn't change the fact that it's a GIANT HEAVY SUV.


The only mention of a Subaru so far...

Fark, I am disappoint.

My 07 Impreza Outback handles like a dream in the snow.  I need to remind myself how reliable it is the next time I think of buying anything else.
 
2013-03-06 01:24:40 PM  
I have to take offense to the individuals that say  ALL 4x4 drivers are IDIOTS.  I have two, the first is a Chevy 3500HD 4X4 that hauls my boat, horse trailer, and toy hauler.  The second is a Chevy Tahoe 4x4 that I haul my kids and their friends to all their sporting events.  When it snows I can neither get into or out of my drive way.  I don't always use 4 wheel drive, and honestly the 9 years that I have owned my 3500, I have used it maybe 9 or 10 times, but when I need it, it's nice to have.

The difference between me and SOME drivers (not necessarily 4x4) is I have common sense and know my limitations to what I and my truck can and can't do in certain weather conditions.

Yes, Yes I know this is FARK.
 
2013-03-06 01:26:17 PM  

offmymeds: titwrench: mysticcat: Answer: tires

This. I have a 4wd suv that I take out yo the trails all the time but my current tires can not handle the mud at all. Half a mile in and my tires are so caked with mud they are useless they are barely even rudders at that point. The next set are going yo be a good BFG off road tire.

Good idea. Let us know how they do on SOLID ICE.


I don't get much of that in San Diego. I have driven on solid ice in up state New York and there are some similarities between that and having your tires so caked with mud to the point there is yo tread showing.
 
2013-03-06 01:27:27 PM  
Tanner seems to like his Evo....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNCDaRnF-k8
 
2013-03-06 01:27:59 PM  

genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.


Says the guy who's never downshifted a manual 4x4

/ice racer
//grew up in Jeeps and Scouts in the Colorado mountains
///never gone off a road in a 4x4 unplanned
////also got passed a lot during snowstorms, but always got where I was going
 
2013-03-06 01:34:37 PM  
We live where we actually need 4WD in the winter so we own a Grand Cherokee (lifted 2" with 245/75.16 Goodyear Duratechs) & a Patriot Limited with FDII (yeah,I know it's not a real Jeep,we wanted something that got better mileage & it has a very sophisticated 4WD system).It's 1.5 miles down a bad dirt road & the last hill to our house is a biatch.

It's too dry here for us to have the ice-covered roads other states get but we carry chains in the winter,why the fark don't people do that,in areas where they're legal that is.

We don't get stuck & we don't slide off the road.
 
2013-03-06 01:35:50 PM  

waterrockets: genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.

Says the guy who's never downshifted a manual 4x4

/ice racer
//grew up in Jeeps and Scouts in the Colorado mountains
///never gone off a road in a 4x4 unplanned
////also got passed a lot during snowstorms, but always got where I was going


Had a 94 Wrangler (Manual Trans) and live in Western NY.  Downshifted in the winter plenty of times. Wet ice is still wet ice.
 
2013-03-06 01:39:12 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-06 01:41:59 PM  

omahatattoo: JustFish: Got a little subaru outback, and will never go back to two wheel drive.

The problem people have is F=MA. For christ sake, yes, four wheel drive will help, but it doesn't change the physics people.

First thing I do when it snows, no matter the car I have at the time, is go out to an empty parking lot and practice emergency turning / braking. You have to know the vehicle and it's limits, and each one is different. Slapping some safety features like ABS and AWD on a car doesn't change the fact that it's a GIANT HEAVY SUV.

The only mention of a Subaru so far...

Fark, I am disappoint.

My 07 Impreza Outback handles like a dream in the snow.  I need to remind myself how reliable it is the next time I think of buying anything else.


Here you go.
 
2013-03-06 01:44:39 PM  
Seeing a lot of opinions in here, where's the "Citation Needed" gag?
 
2013-03-06 01:46:28 PM  

St. Snuff


Has no one caught this "Anderson suggests drivers limit using four-wheel drive to roads with lots of snow that haven't yet been plowed." ?

Unless this is just a grammatical error, the expert is seemingly encouraging the exact opposite of the article's point...
'If you do drive 4 wheel drive, make sure there is a fark ton of snow and the road hasn't been plowed..otherwise stay off the road'


You missed the point. Some types of 4WD (not AWD) do not turn well when there is 100% traction; Jeep comes to mind. Once the 4WD is locked, the inside and outside wheels try to turn at the same rotational speed. If the driver is going in a straight line, this is fine. When the driver tries to go around a turn in 4WD on a dry road, the inside wheels will try to turn faster than the outside wheels, and the differing wheel speeds put stress on the driveline. If there is snow on the road and traction is not 100%, the driver can make turns and there will be less stress on the driveline because the snow allows the tires to turn at the same rate.
 
2013-03-06 01:47:17 PM  

PyroStock: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x219]


Well that pretty much confirms my hypothesis:

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-06 02:06:38 PM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."

I'm not excusing the suburbanites, men and women, who drive their glorified minivans thinking they can just cruise through any condition, on the phone, with reckless abandon.  But around here (SLC), it's anyone with a big vehicle.  The F-250 drivers and Ram 2500 drivers and old souped up off-roaders  that are actually used for offroading all drive like morons when some snow starts to fall.  My impression is that these types think they are being cool if they gun it off the line following a redlight, or cruise by traffic at 45 mph ,when everyone else is going 25 mph due to road conditions.  It's not just the suburban SUV idiots.  It's anyone with a big vehicle who thinks they are "cool."


This.  I was actually thinking that PocketNinja is exactly the type that winds up ass over teakettle by the side of an icy road.  That is of course, unfair, because I don't know if he is a careful driver or not, but the implied machismo leads me to believe he may not be.
 
2013-03-06 02:10:12 PM  

genepool lifeboat: waterrockets: genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.

Says the guy who's never downshifted a manual 4x4

/ice racer
//grew up in Jeeps and Scouts in the Colorado mountains
///never gone off a road in a 4x4 unplanned
////also got passed a lot during snowstorms, but always got where I was going

Had a 94 Wrangler (Manual Trans) and live in Western NY.  Downshifted in the winter plenty of times. Wet ice is still wet ice.


Well then you know that it's possible to slow more rapidly in a 4x4 than in a car that's just using brakes. People act like 4x4s are only good at going, but they slow just as well as they go, as long as they're not being driven by morans (many of them are though).

I never had any jeeps as new as a Wrangler. '42 Willy's CJ-2A, '69 CJ-5, '84 CJ-7, then a '97 4Runner.
 
2013-03-06 02:12:29 PM  
Yep, Idiots / people who don't know how to drive.  2 snowstorms in the past week.  I have to take a country road on my way home.  Most of the cars in the ditches where SUVs.  Yet I have no problem with my 4 speed manual cobalt and bald tires. (well except for the #@$!@# driver side door that has now decided to not open)
 
2013-03-06 02:12:47 PM  
What you mean it's worse when all four tires are spinning rather than just two of them? Who'd a thunk it.  Solution:  learn to drive!!!
 
2013-03-06 02:20:04 PM  
Because they help you get OUT of trouble, not keep you from getting INTO trouble?
 
2013-03-06 02:24:31 PM  
Use my 4wd more in Florida than Ohio. Slippery boat ramps and loose sand.
 
2013-03-06 02:44:14 PM  

GAT_00: Because dumbasses think they're immune and capable of driving through anything just because they're in something big.


EXACTLY!!!  Not to mention the fact that most people who own SUVs have the driving skills of a 3 year old, in other words  over confidence in their machine coupled with poor driving skills.
 
2013-03-06 02:46:21 PM  

waterrockets: Well then you know that it's possible to slow more rapidly in a 4x4 than in a car that's just using brakes.


Engine braking and brake drum braking both require a functional frictional interface between tire surfaces and the roadway.

If your tires cannot provide enough torque resistance, all of that decreased engine rotation just results in a spin.
 
2013-03-06 02:48:27 PM  

waterrockets: I never had any jeeps as new as a Wrangler. '42 Willy's CJ-2A, '69 CJ-5, '84 CJ-7, then a '97 4Runner.


You functionally have. A 1994 Wrangler is essentially a CJ-9.
 
2013-03-06 02:51:45 PM  
There are many idiots who think 4 wheel drive gives them more traction.  When you get stuck in RWD or FWD, you switch to 4WD and go home to have a beer.  if you get stuck in 4WD .. your stuck
 
2013-03-06 03:04:20 PM  
Conversely, some folks think just because you drive a 4x4, you should be doing 70 mph in slush.  During our last recent snow storm, I had two sports cars rocket out from behind me, and do the obviously-impatient-cutting-it-short pass because having just hydroplaned in the snow run off from the shoulder, I decided it was prudent to slow down to 50 around the curve until a center (and cleaner) lane became available.

/female
//Michigan
///Jeep
////Yes, I know how to use 4x4
 
2013-03-06 03:05:04 PM  

Mikey1969: In fact, an SUV faces the same risks as any car when turning or braking. In addition, engaging all four wheels doesn't help on wet or slushy roads, and it uses up more gas.

Yeah, um what the FARK does this have to do with SUVs getting in accidents? Topic. Stay on it...

"But when it gets very slippery, you begin to have problems with traction."

Not if you know what you're doing. Which means slowing down, increasing stopping times, AND NOT CUTTING PEOPLE THE FARK OFF.... Seriously, the last storm we had, I was driving on sheets of ice, doing just fine, and I had 2 different cars just pull out in front of me, close enough that would have been a problem on a dry road, and turned out to be about 2 inches shy of an accident on the icy roads.

Farking assholes.

Here we go: 4WD DOES increase traction. It increases it even on "very slippery" roads. Your 4WD can even help when turning, despite what this numbnuts says, since you have power to the turning wheels, as well as traction helping to push you through the turn. It won't help with braking, but it can help when using your engine/transmission to slow you down. You have all kinds of benefits that this moron can't figure out, but he DID get one thing right: overconfidence. That's the biggest culprit. People who think their 4WD makes that sheet of ice called a road suddenly equal the same road if it were empty and dry.

The weirdest thing about that last storm? I kept having people doing scary, dumb shiat and driving like morons. My buddy who drives on the other side of town had damp roads, but no snow and ice(Salt Lake is weird when it comes to weather), and THOSe people were driving like it was a farking blizzard. So yeah, snowy/icy part of town? Farking NASCAR. Dry, clear side of town? The Great Ice Storm of 2013 or something.

When I get the Jeep I want with the nice big tube bumpers, I'm just not going to be able to stop "in time" one of these mornings and hit one of these cock-knockers who pulls out in front of me. ...


I recommend an Expedition One steel plate front bumper. 125lbs of fark YOU when someone pulls out in front. Add in a winch for more carnage.
 
2013-03-06 03:06:24 PM  
Speaking as a former used-car salesman, in the 6 years I sold cars, we probably had less than twenty customers who actually needed a 4WD/AWD. All of them either had professions that required them to go off-highway to job sites or lived in areas that weren't frequently serviced by the plows (Western New York).

All the rest went to idiots that either wanted one of those bloated f**kers to basically look good when they showed up at the bar, or because all the rappers drove 'em in their videos. A few stated they preferred the type because the roads in downtown Buffalo are totally hammered from the weather and the substandard work done on them, which I would give them credit for, but most just wanted them because "they be big!"

From the first snowfall of the season to the last, we'd get calls from those idiots claiming they're vehicles were faulty because they lost it on the Thruway, or they pasted them driving too fast on bad days. It was always the vehicle's (and by extension our) fault they rear-ended someone or they planted it in the median.

I also blame the manufacturers and their ads. They show the cars (and they are really cars, for the most part), blasting through snow, driving at high speeds on icy roads, crap like that. Very few people are qualified to actually take something like this off-road, and honestly, SUVs are really minimal for actual off-roading. They're built very light in order to get something approaching decent mileage, are engineered more for comfort and convenience rather than off-road sensibilities, and like many have said, they give under-skilled drivers a false sense of security when conditions get hazardous.

I would seriously like to see most of them taken off the road. Even here in the Buffalo area, there are maybe 5-10 day a year that you would possible need one. They waste fuel and other resources to support them. Just about everything on them that aren't common-core parts costs four times as much as for a 2WD, and people simply don't have the proper skills in order to operate these things safely.

I'd like to see a system where you'd have to prove a true need for such a vehicle, along with a special endorsement on your driver's license before you'd be allowed to purchase one. Along with that, I'd like to see them governed so they can't exceed 75 miles per hour, and restrictions on useless garbage like DVD players and displays. You got kids that need constant entertainment on drives? Too bad. Deal with it like my parents did. Comic books, coloring books, road games worked just fine then.

And then there are the ones who want one so they're "safer" in an accident. Pure BS. Most SUVs are little more than a steel, plastic, and aluminum bubble now (unibody), exactly like a regular car. They come apart just as fast in collisions with the added bonus of having a higher center of gravity they tend to roll over more.
 
2013-03-06 03:21:46 PM  

kkinnison: There are many idiots who think 4 wheel drive gives them more traction.  When you get stuck in RWD or FWD, you switch to 4WD and go home to have a beer.  if you get stuck in 4WD .. your stuck


Ah, this takes me back to, oh, about 1981.  A 16-year old friend of mine (we were in high school) wanted to impress his girlfriend, who always wanted to have a picnic in a field of wildflowers.  So one day, he went out scouting fields with his '73 Grand Prix.  It being early spring and all, he got stuck.

So, he called me, as I come from a family that has always had 4x4s.  My dear, sweet mom was the first to arrive with her rust bucket AMC-era  sky-blue '78 Jeep Cherokee - The Squaw, she'd call it.  Stuck in the mud up to the wheel wells.

The second vehicle to arrive was my brother with his Tonka truck.  I think it was a '79 short bed GMC, although I can remember what they were called then.  It didn't have a chance.

Another brother arrived with his full-sized truck...I think it might have been an F250 or the equivalent.  The mud laughed, belched, and ate another 4x4.

So there we are, six hours later, cold, wet and pissed, 4 vehicles (3 of them 4x4s) stuck in the mud, with a total of 9 people stranded, before we all accepted the inevitable and called a damn tow truck.  My SIL showed up in her mother's Bonneville and got all 9 into the car, with two in the trunk for the ride home.

The next morning, the kid was at my house at 8:00 a.m. with $240 in cash for my mom's towing expenses.  It broke her heart to take the money from him, bless his heart.

/the girl dumped him a few weeks later
//I married him
///I dumped him 15 years later
 
2013-03-06 03:22:24 PM  

smrtone: Oh, and for God's sake, leave a little room between you and the car in front of you!


I'd say this is the #1 cause I have seen that people lose control.  They have to hard break, ABS kicks in and they start wheeling around wildly.

My favorite is on the hills where people see other below wrecked out in a pile and proceed as if their car is some kind of super car that can handle it.

I don't own one nor am I a fanboy but I am always impressed at watching a Subaru with AWD and studs/snow tires wheel around like it's a summer day seemingly regardless of the conditions.
 
2013-03-06 03:22:43 PM  
Yeah my S10 Blazer DOES make me invincible win any conditions I've experienced in the 10 years I've owned it in WI. No lift, no lockers, no winch. There was one snowstorm that was too deep to drive in but only on unplowed sidestreets. You just have to know your turning and braking limits. If you dive in traffic at all, get winter tires. Mostly, stay as far away I would never not own a 4x4 in this climate (and still expect to get anywhere or have some fun). Absolutely lots of people are clueless, but all the people here bashing 4x4s are just as ignorant or are jealous.
 
2013-03-06 03:22:50 PM  
I see it every year in Canada.  The guy most likely to get into an accident when it slows is usually driving an SUV and thinks putting it into 4wd means they can drive the same way as a dry day in summer.

For me 4wd is for getting up and down unplowed side streets in my area (which are all very hilly).
 
2013-03-06 03:23:39 PM  

titwrench: mysticcat: Answer: tires

This. I have a 4wd suv that I take out yo the trails all the time but my current tires can not handle the mud at all. Half a mile in and my tires are so caked with mud they are useless they are barely even rudders at that point. The next set are going yo be a good BFG off road tire.


BFG KM2's are very good off-road but they are shiat in the rain. I'm running Dick Cepek mud country tires and they do a lot better in the rain and IMHO are better off-road as well. Not as good as all terrains, but that's a sacrifice you have to make with mud terrain tires. I've pulled people out of ditches this winter without spinning a tire on snow and ice. That was in 4Lo, of course, but I was impressed by the grip.
 
2013-03-06 03:24:15 PM  

vudukungfu: AWD Forester, studded snows, and I bought it because the color specifically matched the color of the dirt on my road.


My wife got a forester when we moved to the country. For the size of the engine and the car the thing is an unstoppable TANK in snow. It's good until the snow is up to the front "chin" of the car.

/ But no match for my Ford Expedition land-yacht
 
2013-03-06 03:26:52 PM  

Psylence: I recommend an Expedition One steel plate front bumper. 125lbs of fark YOU when someone pulls out in front. Add in a winch for more carnage.


Nice...

My CJ-5 had just a double tube rear bumper someone threw on the front. We had abandoned cars in the forest near our house, and I'd drive by and nail those doors all the time. I also taco'd a shopping cart once just to se what would happen. Not a scuff, scratch or ding on the Jeep, and the bumper had so many farking layers of black spray paint on it, I never had to touch that up, either... :-) Also been toying with the idea of making my own. My stepson is learning welding, and his father has the skills, too. If I can design it myself and have them put it together for me, I'll probably save a minimum of $500...

I LIKE those Expedition One's though, thanks for the tip...
 
2013-03-06 03:27:12 PM  
This text is now purple


waterrockets: I never had any jeeps as new as a Wrangler. '42 Willy's CJ-2A, '69 CJ-5, '84 CJ-7, then a '97 4Runner.

You functionally have. A 1994 Wrangler is essentially a CJ-9.Bzzzt! WRONG!!! The '94 Wrangler was a YJ,there never was a CJ-9.The YJ replaced the CJ series in '86,which was replaced by the TJ in '96,the current Wrangler ('07 to present)  is a JK.
 
2013-03-06 03:27:23 PM  

This text is now purple: waterrockets: Well then you know that it's possible to slow more rapidly in a 4x4 than in a car that's just using brakes.

Engine braking and brake drum braking both require a functional frictional interface between tire surfaces and the roadway.

If your tires cannot provide enough torque resistance, all of that decreased engine rotation just results in a spin.


This is only applies when the vehicle is in the air. If I'm on ice, I have traction. The key that most people seem to be missing is that traction varies. When you have less of it, you need to go slower...

Unless you're ice racing, then you don't go slower. I've got the wet ice thing figured out pretty well.

vygramul: Because they help you get OUT of trouble, not keep you from getting INTO trouble?


Not if you know wtf you're doing.

kkinnison: There are many idiots who think 4 wheel drive gives them more traction.  When you get stuck in RWD or FWD, you switch to 4WD and go home to have a beer.  if you get stuck in 4WD .. your stuck


Incorrect. I had a winch and a hi-lift jack. These are the only two 4x4 accessories that get you unstuck. Everything else (lift kit, snorkel, mudders, etc.) gets you stuck.
 
2013-03-06 03:27:58 PM  

Myria: We of SoCal collectively ask, what's snow?


You know how, sometimes, San Jacinto or the San Bernardino mountains look white? Or that time your neighbor drove up to Julian and mentioned there was some sort of cold, white particulate matter on the ground?

Oh, better yet, you know how your cousin likes to brag about "doing a dawn patrol" off Bolsa Chica before "hitting the slopes at Big Bear" in the afternoon? That white powdery substance he keeps putting up his nose? That's snow.

/me miss SoCal
 
2013-03-06 03:29:00 PM  

FlashHarry: • nothing will help you on ice - not tires, not 4wd, not anything - except extreme caution


Studded snows help.

I had 4 studded snows on my old 1978 Camaro and the thing would go through packed snow and ice like a champ.
 
2013-03-06 03:29:23 PM  

SpectroBoy: vudukungfu: AWD Forester, studded snows, and I bought it because the color specifically matched the color of the dirt on my road.

My wife got a forester when we moved to the country. For the size of the engine and the car the thing is an unstoppable TANK in snow. It's good until the snow is up to the front "chin" of the car.

/ But no match for my Ford Expedition land-yacht


I've driven many 4 wheel drive vehicles over the years, but none of them hold the road like my wife's Subaru Legacy.
 
2013-03-06 03:30:44 PM  

waterrockets: vygramul: Because they help you get OUT of trouble, not keep you from getting INTO trouble?

Not if you know wtf you're doing.


I know the statement is pretty simplistic, but if new 4x4 owners took that as advice, they'd get into far fewer accidents.
 
2013-03-06 03:32:50 PM  

SpectroBoy: FlashHarry: • nothing will help you on ice - not tires, not 4wd, not anything - except extreme caution

Studded snows help.

I had 4 studded snows on my old 1978 Camaro and the thing would go through packed snow and ice like a champ.


Studded snow tires are illegal in several states. The one time I was in a car with studded tires, it was amazing. A '76 Oldsmobile Cutlass Station Wagon with studded tires will out-perform newer cars with 4x4.
 
2013-03-06 03:33:55 PM  

redlegrick: Speaking as a former used-car salesman, in the 6 years I sold cars, we probably had less than twenty customers who actually needed a 4WD/AWD. All of them either had professions that required them to go off-highway to job sites or lived in areas that weren't frequently serviced by the plows (Western New York).

All the rest went to idiots that either wanted one of those bloated f**kers to basically look good when they showed up at the bar, or because all the rappers drove 'em in their videos. A few stated they preferred the type because the roads in downtown Buffalo are totally hammered from the weather and the substandard work done on them, which I would give them credit for, but most just wanted them because "they be big!"

From the first snowfall of the season to the last, we'd get calls from those idiots claiming they're vehicles were faulty because they lost it on the Thruway, or they pasted them driving too fast on bad days. It was always the vehicle's (and by extension our) fault they rear-ended someone or they planted it in the median.

I also blame the manufacturers and their ads. They show the cars (and they are really cars, for the most part), blasting through snow, driving at high speeds on icy roads, crap like that. Very few people are qualified to actually take something like this off-road, and honestly, SUVs are really minimal for actual off-roading. They're built very light in order to get something approaching decent mileage, are engineered more for comfort and convenience rather than off-road sensibilities, and like many have said, they give under-skilled drivers a false sense of security when conditions get hazardous.

I would seriously like to see most of them taken off the road. Even here in the Buffalo area, there are maybe 5-10 day a year that you would possible need one. They waste fuel and other resources to support them. Just about everything on them that aren't common-core parts costs four times as much as for a 2WD, and people simply don't ...


Way to judge a book by it's cover.

I suppose the guy who sold me my Expedition may have thought the same thing. I have a desk job and bought a big ole 4wd suv. "Why does this guy NEED 4WD??!?!"

Of course this theoretical asshat would have no way of knowing that I go camping, hunting, and fishing off road on a regular basis. When he sees the truck it is always clean. Because when it gets dirty I splurge the whopping $6 and go through the car wash.
 
2013-03-06 03:40:47 PM  

Flragnararch: 11) the 4x4 does not have its lights on in the middle of the day while its snowing


AHHHHHHH...   This drives me nuts.  It's snowing like crazy, visibility's a couple hundred feet, everyone has their wipers going, and the guy in the BLACK SUV can't be bothered to turn on his lights.  In fairness, it seems like every vehicle without headlights on ( not just SUVs) when they should be is some dark color (blue, black, whatever).  Makes sense I guess, they didn't think about visibility when choosing a color, why would they think about it now?

Anyway, could this lack of headlights be because of the AUTO headlight feature on later models?

Drove a couple of Chevy's for the job that had this.  Apparently the lights are supposed to come on if it's dark enough.  Wasn't able to test this, I turned them on manually.


/my '97 ford ranger obviously does not have this feature
//good, one less thing to have to bypass
 
2013-03-06 03:42:53 PM  
I don't pull into an intersection unless I know I can get out of it safely. Sitting in the middle of an intersection doesn't give you the right-of-way; you're forcing others who have the right-of-way to remain stopped because you feel entitled to turn. I prefer not to encourage others to plow into my car.
 
2013-03-06 03:45:12 PM  

Explodo: It looks an awful lot like a pretty mundane little hill you have there. I've seen minivans and Civics drive hills like that. Maybe I'm losing some sense of scale there, but it really doesn't look like it.

Yay living in Colorado with a Rubicon!


So much this. Everywhere in Colorado Springs is uphill both ways... literally! I'll admit east coast drivers suck, so do Dallas drivers, but out here, we get them from all over because we're surrounded by Military Bases. Add in all the young GI's go out and buy Camaro's and Mustang's as their first car (generally the gutless V6 versions) that are rear wheel drive, it makes for Hell on traffic as these southerners try to drive uphill in rear wheel drive cars in 10 inches of snow.

Basically, they end up just clogging all the main thoroughfares in town when it snows really bad.
 
2013-03-06 03:51:31 PM  

FlashHarry: • nothing will help you on ice - not tires, not 4wd, not anything - except extreme caution
• in snow and slush, snow tires are key - especially if you have RWD. the germans have known this for decades and do just fine
• there is no such thing as an all-season tire - with the possible exception of the Nokian WRG2, which is awesome and well worth the price.


I'm sorry what ???    Oh, you mean you are just poor...  check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5Te9XUMzg
 
2013-03-06 03:52:59 PM  
"I have 4WD, so I can just drive normally!"

No you can't. The 4WD means you don't get stuck as easily and yes it does help if some of the wheels hit some ice and the others don't.

However, ice is ice and it doesn't matter what you're in when all four wheels hit it.
 
2013-03-06 03:56:30 PM  
Damn,screwed up,lemme try this again...
This text is now purple


waterrockets: I never had any jeeps as new as a Wrangler. '42 Willy's CJ-2A, '69 CJ-5, '84 CJ-7, then a '97 4Runner.

You functionally have. A 1994 Wrangler is essentially a CJ-9



BZZZT! WRONG!!! The '94 Wrangler was a YJ,there never was a CJ-9.The YJ replaced the CJ series in '86,which was replaced by the TJ in '96,the current Wrangler ('07 to present) is the JK.
 
2013-03-06 03:56:37 PM  

Maud Dib: UberDave:


I drive PINS a lot. This sign should really say, "Abandon all hope, all ye who enter without 4WD."
One day, many years ago, some guy hit the sand and drove the full 60 miles to the Mansfield Cut in a got-damn 4 door Lincoln Continental. He finally got stuck while realizing he couldn't swim across the cut. Took 3 big ol' 4WD trucks in tandem to pull him out.

[i865.photobucket.com image 850x662]


I lived in the desert.
You learn to drive in the morning, early.
Sand is cold, moist, and compact then.
Once the sun hits it, it puffs up and you are screwed.
 
2013-03-06 04:01:03 PM  

Sojianna: I don't pull into an intersection unless I know I can get out of it safely. Sitting in the middle of an intersection doesn't give you the right-of-way; you're forcing others who have the right-of-way to remain stopped because you feel entitled to turn. I prefer not to encourage others to plow into my car.


In VA, you are legally obligated to pull into the intersection while waiting to make the turn.

It's one of those laws no one ever gets ticketed for.
 
2013-03-06 04:19:13 PM  
We had a nasty snowstorm where I live a couple of years ago. I had to put chains on my little front wheel drive Ford Focus and got on the highway to drive home. Every single car that was stuck on the side of the road was a 4WD. I just kept puttering along at a reasonable speed and made it home with no problem. These folks see the commercials with the Wrangler crashing through the snow and think that their car can do it with no problem. Stupid-ass people.
 
2013-03-06 04:20:40 PM  
gocomics.typepad.com
 
2013-03-06 04:36:25 PM  
It doesn't matter what is on vehicle is being carried by tires when they are in sufficient ice and snow, news at 11.
 
2013-03-06 04:37:56 PM  

Dr. Goldshnoz: It doesn't matter what is on vehicle is being carried by tires when they are in sufficient ice and snow, news at 11.


yikes, should have proofread that one more time.
 
2013-03-06 04:43:09 PM  
Simple answer:

4 wheel drive =/ 4 wheel stop
 
2013-03-06 04:46:55 PM  
Because many drivers of SUVs are stupid.
 
2013-03-06 04:50:10 PM  
Because morans that cant drive in the snow think 4wd is the magic cure all that makes them unstoppable?

See plenty of wiped out Subarus too not just land yacht SUVs.
 
2013-03-06 05:11:09 PM  
I will say probably the best vehicle I've had in somewhat serious snow was a Honda Civic station wagon. That thing was a piece of shiat in most ways, but it was rear wheel drive (pretty sure it was anyway). So pretty good in snow (in OK, so wasn't necessary most of the time). Not so good at the not sliding, though.

Current vehicle (Toyota Echo) is also OK in snow. Sits up higher, so the clearance is better than most cars that aren't SUVs or trucks. Drove in OKC after that massive snowstorm a couple years ago and made the mistake of exiting onto May Ave., which has not been cleared very well. Watched a couple other vehicles get stuck (one had passed me a minute earlier, that was kinda satisfying), but mine did OK until I was about 1/4 mile from destination. And that was probably my fault. After a couple hundred miles, I got a little overconfident.
 
2013-03-06 05:29:11 PM  
Snow tires > 4WD.


My little VW Jetta with real snow tires is better in the snow than my dad's monstrous Lincoln Navigator with all-seasons.
 
2013-03-06 05:37:46 PM  

bikerific: My little VW Jetta with real snow tires is better in the snow than my dad's monstrous Lincoln Navigator with all-seasons.


My VW R32 with snows is awesome.

/Knows his (and his car's) limit.
//Doesn't cross it.
///Unless it's in an empty parking lot.
 
2013-03-06 05:39:53 PM  
My VW Jetta TDI couldn't get up the hills in my neighborhood development with Nokian Hakkas on. FWD + Awesome SnoTires is not nearly as good as a proper 4wd vehicle and a non retarded driver.
 
2013-03-06 05:42:10 PM  

Frantic Freddie: This text is now purple


waterrockets: I never had any jeeps as new as a Wrangler. '42 Willy's CJ-2A, '69 CJ-5, '84 CJ-7, then a '97 4Runner.

You functionally have. A 1994 Wrangler is essentially a CJ-9.Bzzzt! WRONG!!! The '94 Wrangler was a YJ,there never was a CJ-9.The YJ replaced the CJ series in '86,which was replaced by the TJ in '96,the current Wrangler ('07 to present)  is a JK.


Indeed. A YJ replaced the CJ-8, although the differences bordered on the trivial. Hell, it still had AMC parts. It was functionally a CJ-9 with a new badge.
 
2013-03-06 05:43:42 PM  

Psylence: FWD + Awesome SnoTires is not nearly as good as a proper 4wd vehicle and a non retarded driver.


The R32 *is* an AWD vehicle. ;)
 
2013-03-06 05:44:19 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: I will say probably the best vehicle I've had in somewhat serious snow was a Honda Civic station wagon. That thing was a piece of shiat in most ways, but it was rear wheel drive (pretty sure it was anyway). So pretty good in snow (in OK, so wasn't necessary most of the time). Not so good at the not sliding, though.



Nope. Depending on the year, it was either FWD or AWD. I had a cow-orker who had one the AWD ones. Light weight + skinny snow tires + AWD = unstoppable.

My best and worst snow vehicles were both Hondas: The first generation Civic was great. I was living in Rochester NY, and getting it stuck took a combination of stupidity and effort. The first gen Integra I had when I moved to CO a few years later was the opposite. Yes, front wheel drive would allow you to get going, but all the roll stiffness they'd dialed in to make it handle well on dry pavement would bite you hard when it was slick. That sucker would spin if you even thought about lifting off the gas in the middle of a corner. And that was with studded tires.

I replaced it with a BMW M3. Threw a set of Blizzaks on it, went to my first ice gymkhana, and was floored at how good it was in really crappy conditions. Maybe not quite on the level as the Civic, but a hell of a lot more fun. It was pretty funny on the way up: Some guy in an Explorer seemed to take it as a personal affront that a RWD German sport coupe would dare to drive up US6 in a snow storm, or at least that's what I imagined was his motive for tailgating me. That stopped when I cruised comfortably around a turn, while he understeered out into the other lane and almost got smacked by a casino bus.

/Chill tale, brah.
 
2013-03-06 05:48:54 PM  

mysticcat: Traction control does not override the constraints posed by the laws of physics.


Need to hunt down that video of a Challenger tank sliding on an icy road, if it hasn't been posted yet.

/thread is tl;dr
 
2013-03-06 06:10:11 PM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


Someone else added a couple, here's mine:

12) they slow down to about 3 mph when they encounter a patch of sand the size of a dinner plate on the road.

/forcing me to peel out around them, spraying their expensive paint job with gravel

Oh, and 13) they use up two parking spaces in cramped urban garages and parking lots

//not really sorry I had to ding your spotless paint with my door
 
2013-03-06 06:11:26 PM  

bikerific: My little VW Jetta with real snow tires


We debated the snow tires v. studded when we got our winter tires for our Jetta wagon.  The snows (not studded) have been really good to us so far.  (35 mile r/t Colorado canyon commute every day.)  There's only been one day so far that we couldn't get up our hill to the house and had to take the bat cave entrance.

mr. zobear drove it over Vail Pass in a storm this past weekend without incident.  I think after the correct tires, the key is to keep it moving - slow and steady - and don't make any sudden changes in direction, if you can help it.

/also have an 01 Tacoma 4WD for when it gets really bad
 
2013-03-06 06:20:02 PM  
10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:
1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck"


Thanks Pocket Ninja, you perfectly describe what I call "fat station wagons" a few years ago I wanted a small SUV, not a FSW and found them hard to find. I bought a 2006 Kia Sorento new & loaded for less than Toyota's or Honda's stripped FSWs were new at that time. And since then Kia caved to the soccor moms & went to a car based Sorento. Keeping my 2006 Kia and 2001 Ford Ranger 4WD till they die of old age.
 
2013-03-06 06:44:50 PM  
Everyone thinks they are good at these two things: driving and sex.
 
2013-03-06 06:50:49 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Psylence: FWD + Awesome SnoTires is not nearly as good as a proper 4wd vehicle and a non retarded driver.

The R32 *is* an AWD vehicle. ;)


Was referring to the person with the Jetta, but hey, thanks for trying. Got the DSG or the real tranny btw? ;)
 
2013-03-06 06:59:19 PM  

Psylence: Gecko Gingrich: Psylence: FWD + Awesome SnoTires is not nearly as good as a proper 4wd vehicle and a non retarded driver.

The R32 *is* an AWD vehicle. ;)

Was referring to the person with the Jetta, but hey, thanks for trying. Got the DSG or the real tranny btw? ;)


It's an urR32 ('04), no DSG option in the US.
 
2013-03-06 07:23:13 PM  

JustFish: Got a little subaru outback, and will never go back to two wheel drive.

The problem people have is F=MA. For christ sake, yes, four wheel drive will help, but it doesn't change the physics people.

First thing I do when it snows, no matter the car I have at the time, is go out to an empty parking lot and practice emergency turning / braking. You have to know the vehicle and it's limits, and each one is different. Slapping some safety features like ABS and AWD on a car doesn't change the fact that it's a GIANT HEAVY SUV.


I miss my little subie, I want another one.

I do the same thing.  One time, after I was done and went to leave the lot, there was a police cruiser sitting at the entrance/exit of the lot.  I pulled up and he rolled down his window.  I did the same.

"What were you doing?"  he asked.

"Donuts, power slides, emergency braking, hand brake pulls, acceleration checks, just refreshing my snow driving skills and seeing how the car is running and handling this year."

"Oh.  Good idea."

"Yes, thanks.  Have a good day.  Bye."

"Thanks, you too.  Bye."

As I drove away, in my rear view mirror, I could see him doing the same thing in his cruiser.

/probably get arrested for criminal trespass now
//they've really lost their sense of humor
 
2013-03-06 08:03:10 PM  

ShamanGator: "fat station wagons"


diaper buckets
 
2013-03-06 08:10:45 PM  
Actually for a good snow vehicle you need:

1- Traction. You are only going to get this from good tires and 4 wheel drive and traction control. Any one of these is good, but all three are better.
2- Ground clearance. Snow piles up under your car. If there is more than 8 inches on the ground you arent going to make it very far on an unplowed road in a car.
3- Visibility. The terrain looks different when its buried in snow. Height is a clear advantage when you need to find what used to be the street under a couple feet of drifts.
4- Power at pace. People forget that sometimes the trick with snow is low and slow, low gear, low revs, but tons of torque. You need to let the micro-ridges in your snow tires create friction and then use that friction without over rotating the wheels or bogging your forward momentum. Some people argue that a higher gear is better for not breaking traction, but if you have good throttle control then lower gears are more useful in my experience.
5- Tire diameter. Larger is better, especially when the snow is really deep and you dont know whats under it on top of the pavement.

The clear choice is a large 4x4 or awd vehicle driven intelligently. BUT

If you intend to carry your family in it you are going to want lots of airbags and other safety features because everyone else out there is an idiot in a Jetta sliding sideways down the icy street towards you.

So that pretty much leaves you with a crew cab modern pickup truck or a modern large SUV.

So suck it haters and go buy an SUV if you live in snow country.

s1.aecdn.com
 
2013-03-06 08:26:41 PM  
When driving in the snow, the intelligence of the driver is inversely proportional to the number of driven wheels.
 
2013-03-06 08:38:12 PM  

dogboy360: When driving in the snow, the intelligence of the driver is inversely proportional to the number of driven wheels.


So youre saying all the smarties are riding vespas?
 
2013-03-06 09:13:58 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Psylence: Gecko Gingrich: Psylence: FWD + Awesome SnoTires is not nearly as good as a proper 4wd vehicle and a non retarded driver.

The R32 *is* an AWD vehicle. ;)

Was referring to the person with the Jetta, but hey, thanks for trying. Got the DSG or the real tranny btw? ;)

It's an urR32 ('04), no DSG option in the US.


I thought there was an R32 generation that was DSG only, and they relented with the new R awd models. Learn somethin' new I suppose. Does that thing have an open front diff like most Subarus, since we're on the subject...?
 
2013-03-06 10:04:25 PM  
This text is now purple

Frantic Freddie: This text is now purple


waterrockets: I never had any jeeps as new as a Wrangler. '42 Willy's CJ-2A, '69 CJ-5, '84 CJ-7, then a '97 4Runner.

You functionally have. A 1994 Wrangler is essentially a CJ-9.Bzzzt! WRONG!!! The '94 Wrangler was a YJ,there never was a CJ-9.The YJ replaced the CJ series in '86,which was replaced by the TJ in '96,the current Wrangler ('07 to present) is a JK.

Indeed. A YJ replaced the CJ-8, although the differences bordered on the trivial. Hell, it still had AMC parts. It was functionally a CJ-9 with a new badge.



I'm no expert,just an enthusiast,but you don't know squat about Jeeps.
 
2013-03-06 10:25:58 PM  

danno_to_infinity: JustFish: Got a little subaru outback, and will never go back to two wheel drive.

The problem people have is F=MA. For christ sake, yes, four wheel drive will help, but it doesn't change the physics people.

First thing I do when it snows, no matter the car I have at the time, is go out to an empty parking lot and practice emergency turning / braking. You have to know the vehicle and it's limits, and each one is different. Slapping some safety features like ABS and AWD on a car doesn't change the fact that it's a GIANT HEAVY SUV.

I miss my little subie, I want another one.

I do the same thing.  One time, after I was done and went to leave the lot, there was a police cruiser sitting at the entrance/exit of the lot.  I pulled up and he rolled down his window.  I did the same.

"What were you doing?"  he asked.

"Donuts, power slides, emergency braking, hand brake pulls, acceleration checks, just refreshing my snow driving skills and seeing how the car is running and handling this year."

"Oh.  Good idea."

"Yes, thanks.  Have a good day.  Bye."

"Thanks, you too.  Bye."

As I drove away, in my rear view mirror, I could see him doing the same thing in his cruiser.

/probably get arrested for criminal trespass now
//they've really lost their sense of humor


These days someone would catch him doing it on video and he would probably lose his job.

I've been hoping for a good snow day to take my son with is fresh driving permit out so that I can teach him to drive stick. In my Xterra. My 2WD Xterra. You see, I don't want to carry around the extra weight of 4WD for the 362 days a year I don't need it, but I like sitting up high, and I don't like it when the soccer moms think "Escalade" is Italian for "Intimidation."

\Keep the revs low and the momentum up.
\\Plan ahead
 
2013-03-06 11:03:36 PM  

archichris: dogboy360: When driving in the snow, the intelligence of the driver is inversely proportional to the number of driven wheels.

So youre saying all the smarties are riding vespas?


Well, they are smart enough not to ride in the snow.
I've seen more 4x4's in the ditch than 2WD's. I have a RWD pickup. I have no trouble getting around in the snow, if I have to. But I see the 4x4 wiping out all over. 4WD doesn't mean 4 wheel stop (which those idiots do).

/yes, there are always exceptions. But, they are rare.
 
2013-03-07 01:06:37 AM  
Still drive my 94 Bronco 4x4. Love it to death. Always wondered why peeps buy 4x4's and never go off road. Guy in my apt complex has one. Beautiful full size GMC 4x4...cleanest truck i have ever seen. Mine hasnt been washed in months.

/Has dogs..Bloodhound and a aussie shepherd
//got kids
///lived 3 miles down a dirt road..needed the 4x4 when it rained
 
2013-03-07 02:19:16 AM  
4WD or AWD helps you keep moving it doesn't help with the stopping. Too many people think because there vehicle can go highway speeds in snow/ice means they can also stop, only to find themselves in a ditch.

People may disagree but you shouldn't be in 4WD and doing highway speeds, if you need that much traction then you shouldn't be going that fast. Also most 4WD systems aren't designed for 55+ and it isn't good for them.

/TJ (Jeep) in my driveway, modified transfer case, after market Dana 44s with lockers, lifted on 33s', all work done myself. Skinny all terrains in the winter and wide mudders for the rest of the year. Live in Northeast so driving in snow is the norm, also plenty of offroad in rocks/mud which the skid plates and body damage will attest to.
 
2013-03-07 08:36:12 AM  
CSB alert.

Once I was driving on Route 30 near Bedford, PA. We had a very sudden snow storm drop about a foot of snow. The roads hadn't been plowed. I was in a line of cars going maybe 25 mph. A guy driving a red 4 wheel drive subaru wagon comes flying up behind me. He's blasting the horn and flipping us off for going so fast. We hit a straight stretch of road and he guns it and flies by all of us (probably 7-8 cars) while yelling and flipping us off. A few minutes later, we come around a bend and there he is standing beside his car which has the back end stuck in a ditch with the front wheels sticking up in the air. I pulled up and rolled down my window. I asked if he was OK. He said he was. I asked if he had a cell phone to call for help. He said he did. I said "This is what you get for driving like a dumbass". He said "I know, I know". Then I drove off laughing.
 
2013-03-07 10:34:28 AM  

Psylence: I thought there was an R32 generation that was DSG only, and they relented with the new R awd models. Learn somethin' new I suppose. Does that thing have an open front diff like most Subarus, since we're on the subject...?


The 2nd Gen ('08) was DSG only in the US. VW relented for the 3rd Gen ('12) and offered both.

Stock, they all have open diffs at either end, but VW uses the ABS to brake the slipping wheel creating a sort of electronic LSD. My car has had the front diff upgraded to an aftermarket TBD, made by Peloquin.
 
2013-03-07 03:06:24 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: Parents- take your kids out to a snowy parking lot the first time you get a chance. Skid recovery is fun to learn, and it's a critical driving skill.


Unfortunately, it's a skill that rusts, and in some places it's only important few days out of the year, but it's critical for those few days. It's not possible to wait for that day to show up while you're teaching people. Plus when people move from sun to snow, it screws them over. People need to take control of their own destiny and train themselves more if it's not available early on, though.

Alternately, you can emulate the effect of a weather skid with a speed skid, but that's just a wee bit more dangerous.
 
2013-03-07 07:46:11 PM  

Pocket Ninja: 10 Red Flags That Suggest the Person Driving a 4-Wheel Drive Vehicle Doesn't Actually Know How to Operate One:

1) The 4X4 looks more like a mini-van.
2) The 4X4 is spotlessly clean.
3) The 4X4 is regularly parked in the suburbs.
4) The 4X4 has an automatic lift gate or sliding side door.
5) The 4X4 has personalized plates that do not appear to reference hunting.
6) There are young children in the 4X4.
7) There is no dog in the 4X4, or if there is a dog it is a poodle.
8) There is a luggage carrier located somewhere on the 4X4, either atop it or on a small platform hooked to the back.
9) When operating the 4X4 in normal conditions, the driver goes around speed bumps in parking lots.
10) The person refers to his or her 4X4, which is not a pickup, as a "truck."


Or it's just a 4x4.

My favorite moment in the snow was seeing a pickup truck that was stuck in an unplowed part of a parking lot. He had figured he would beat the traffic by going where other cars could not go. It turns out he couldn't go there either.

He had oversized tires and probably didn't meet any of the qualifications that you mentioned. Okay, he didn't have a dog with him that I could see. My car has a low-clearance. I was doing just fine. He was out there shoveling snow trying to get unstuck.. I did get stuck due to that snow-storm, but not from being a total idiot. Many thanks to the kind person who helped me out. And a big fark you to the management at the apartment I lived in at the time who didn't clear the snow from the parking lot. I complained so bitterly that they actually told me I could break my lease without any penalties. So I did.
 
2013-03-07 07:58:38 PM  
Not to sound like I'm trying to pick on Cheeseheads, but when I was up in Wisconsin about 15 years ago, I was surprised how many cars, trucks and SUVs slid off the road into a ditch or the median.  I had the expectation that since they are farther north and get more snow than most states, that they'd be better at driving in said condions as I'd expect them to be more used to it.  Truthfully, it's like that everywhere it snows.

Around the same time period in Pennsylvania travelling west on I-80, I had a group of 3 or 4 semis pass me driving what I thought was too fast for snowy, wintery conditions.  Only went a couple miles down the road and found them in the median.  They weren't wrecked or flipped over on their side, but just nose to tail too far off the road in the snow to get back on the highway.

OK, as for SUVs, I think too many people forget that the SUVs higher center of gravity is a disadvantage, despite the fact they may have 4WD.  For a number of years, I've seen them tipped over on their side, off the road, and sometimes flipped over on their roof.  This is mostly true in winter, but also yearround even when there's no snow, rain, or ice.
 
2013-03-07 08:22:17 PM  
Oh, and I've personally found that a compact or midsize FWD sedan with a manual transmission and good tires (Michelins) has worked fine for me in snow these past 20+ years.  Like somebody else said, in both good and bad weather, get to know your limits and the cars limits. And, then also keep in mind "better safe than sorry."
 
2013-03-07 08:55:39 PM  

genepool lifeboat: 4 Wheel Drive =/= 4 Wheel Stop

Either you know how to drive in snow, or you make friends with the tow guy.


So much this.

I drive a 4WD. I have no problems driving in winter, because pops wouldn't let me drive until I *could* drive in winter. Winter driving is actually just common sense- something most people lack.
 
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