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(Bakersfield Californian)   While internet rages over a "nurse" failing to perform CPR at a "nursing home", family of the 87 year old woman is OK with it   (bakersfieldcalifornian.com) divider line 77
    More: Followup, rage, CPR, home, California Attorney General, Kern County, legal recourse, elder abuse, nurses  
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9277 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Mar 2013 at 1:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-06 12:31:20 AM  
22 votes:
Of course they're happy.

Odds are, Grandma was a near-vegetable that had drained them both emotionally and financially to the brink of ruin because her body was just too stubborn to die even though the mind had checked out long ago. But, unlike if a beloved family pet's quality of life had degraded to almost nothing, no one could take Grandma to the Doctor and give her a nice sleepytime shot to put her out of her misery, because with humans, life is all about quantity, not quality.
2013-03-06 01:16:46 AM  
9 votes:

Relatively Obscure: me texan: Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing.

That's still not entirely true.


For lay rescuers it is.

This lady was not in a nursing home. She lived in an apartment building for old people. It was not a medical facility and had no medical staff. Whether she had a DNR or not is irrelevant until EMS showed up.
Even then if a family member says to ignore it, you have to ignore it. They are pretty worthless.

According to the family, it was her choice to live there and she didn't want her life prolonged.
Good for her. She got what she wanted.

Oh, and the article changed.This has a lot more stuff now.

here is the families statment

"Our mother and grandmother was a remarkable and intelligent woman who was blessed to have a great life of 87 years. It is the wish of our family to honor and celebrate her life at this personal time.
"Like so many seniors, it was our mother's wish to live independently. She was fully aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff. Even so, she personally selected the senior living community, and our family has come to know the staff and been very pleased with Glenwood Gardens as her home.
"It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life-prolonging intervention. Our family respects the right of all people to make their own life choices in such cases.
"We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media. Caregivers, nurses and other medical professionals have very difficult waters to tread in the legal and medical landscape of our country today.
"We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens, and is at peace. We also have no desire, nor is it the nature of our family, to seek legal recourse or try to profit from what is a lesson we can all learn from.
"We wish to focus on our family at this time, and this will be our final comment on this personal matter."


You'll get over it. They did.
2013-03-06 01:52:00 AM  
6 votes:

me texan: I am sure you have some valid points in there, but I am not reading it. You've made me regret even having stated an opinion, regardless of how informed or lack thereof I was of the situation.


That really kind of sums up fark.

Give an opinion where you say everyone else is stupid, on a subject that you know nothing about. when given a point by point rebuttal that shows you don't know WTF you're talking about, say you won't read it because....something. Then walk away feeling superior.
2013-03-06 01:24:29 AM  
6 votes:

me texan: I've only read one news article on the story and when she called 911 the woman was still breathing.  Up until reading further comments, I was not even aware the woman died.  If there are more details in this story, I cant see them -  FTFA: Please enable browser cookies to read the rest of this story.


Since you don't know what happens when you  call 911, I'll try to explain in a less harsh manner of events.

When you call 911, you talk to someone who is a certified emergency medical dispatcher in about 95% of the United States, if not APCO or NAED Public Safety Dispatcher certified.  They have a program called Priority Dispatch they use to level the acuity of a call, determine the response requirements - Fire Truck, EMS, Rescue - and whether they respond with lights and sirens or not, and if necessary, provide pre-arrival instructions. Most places use a computerized system called ProQA now, but older dispatch centers and those in rural areas still use the flip card system.

When this "nurse" called 911, the information she gave the dispatcher - collapse with unresponsiveness and ineffective breathing - leads to the 9 Echo 1 Card, which is Cardiac Arrest/Respiratory Arrest - Questionable Life Status card, and tells the dispatcher to initiate the pre-arrival CPR instruction set. Had a physician been on scene, they would have lead into the 37 Delta Card, which specifies an Emergency Response to medically capable personnel.

ProQA and Priority Dispatch systems are evidence based interventions that have been successfully defended in court multiple times, and are signed off on by a physician. This is not something a dispatcher just tells someone to do. In fact, dispatchers are legally prohibited from giving medical instruction outside of the ProQA/PD protocols their medical director has signed off on.

me texan: Obviously if she was breathing and went to not breathing / cardiac arrest then at that point CPR should be administered.  From what I'd seen before the responder had identified the person as breathing.


That's actually not true, and is the result of vague initial reporting.

FTFA Linked:  Firefighters and ambulance personnel arrived at the facility seven minutes after the call came in, Miller said. The county does not know who made the call, he said.The woman had no pulse and wasn't breathing when fire crews found her lying on the floor, Bakersfield Fire Department spokesman Anthony Galagaza added.They started CPR and loaded her onto a gurney. The woman was later declared dead at Mercy Southwest Hospital.

me texan: Now that I'm reading an article I see the facility had a DNR policy and that everyone is informed when going there and agrees to it before they can be admitted.


A DNR policy, in and of itsself, is worthless unless every patient has a properly filled out and signed/notarized DNR form which specifies the scope of resuscitation effort to be undertaken. This is Tennessee's, for example. Verbal orders are not accepted, and the physician must have a signed medical order in the chart for it to be honored. It also has to be in hand and continue in the chain of custody with the body as part of the medical record. Some states WILL allow for a hand-written medical order in absence of a DNR in the chart, but according to the article they did not have one on her.

DNRs are really worth the paper they're printed on. Any question of their validity, and they can be legally ignored. If they are incomplete or lack signatures at any point, they're ignored. And if the family wants you to ignore it, they're ignored.

me texan: I have no idea legally how that will stand in court, but if that's the policy and it was known and agreed upon by the victim then I dont have a problem with them sticking to it and apparently neither does the family.


If she didn't have a DNR in hand OR a physician telling her not to perform CPR right then and there, and - as the situation seems to indicate - a licensed nurse refused to perform CPR on a patient who it was clearly indicated on, that's a violation of the standard of care despite the , and borders on criminal negligence depending on the situation surrounding it. If she failed to recognize ineffective respiration and render aid, she committed incompetence as well as negligence, and her failure to treat lead directly to the arrest state ostensibly.
2013-03-06 02:08:28 AM  
4 votes:

hardinparamedic: me texan: This whole furor is stupid to begin with regardless.  Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing.  The 911 lady shouldn't be on 911.

Guess what? Those "respirations" that the nurse identiifed? They were ineffective, and agonal respirations - an indication to start CPR.

The woman was in a full cardiac arrest prior to the arrival of EMS crews.

Congratulations. You're defending a woman who failed to act when she should have recognized a peri-arrest condition, and failed to provide care a second year unlicensed extern should have known to provide.


Dude...give it a REST already.

We get it.  You love being a white knight.

the family doesnt care...your indignation over what happened is pointless.
2013-03-06 12:38:30 AM  
4 votes:
Apparently, the woman did NOT have a Do Not Resuscitate order or Advanced Directive stating NO CPR.

It doesn't matter if the family was happy with the care or not. If she was negligent, or violated the rules of her nursing practice, she needs to be held accountable for it.
2013-03-06 12:30:01 AM  
4 votes:

me texan: This whole furor is stupid to begin with regardless.  Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing.  The 911 lady shouldn't be on 911.


Guess what? Those "respirations" that the nurse identiifed? They were ineffective, and agonal respirations - an indication to start CPR.

The woman was in a full cardiac arrest prior to the arrival of EMS crews.

Congratulations. You're defending a woman who failed to act when she should have recognized a peri-arrest condition, and failed to provide care a second year unlicensed extern should have known to provide.
2013-03-05 09:53:00 PM  
4 votes:
This whole furor is stupid to begin with regardless.  Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing.  The 911 lady shouldn't be on 911.
2013-03-06 02:26:42 AM  
3 votes:

hardinparamedic: AverageAmericanGuy: 'Contributed' is a very weasely word here.

How so? If this woman was a nurse, her training should have lead her to be able to identify the fact that this woman needed assistance, and her duty to act (if she's receiving a paycheck as a nurse) should have prompted her to render basic emergency aid until the arrival of more trained personnel. Even if this meant assisting respiration through mouth to mouth.

Her failure to act was a direct contributory factor here as a licensed nurse.


It's a way to pin responsibility on this woman without saying she is responsible for the death.

Everything is contributory to this woman's death. The water temperature in the shower. The alarm clock that woke her from slumber. The walker she hit on her fall to the floor. The question is whether she is responsible in this case, not whether her involvement contributed to the woman's death.

You think yes. Others think no. She's dead, so her opinion is mute (get it? cuz she's dead silent. LOL). And her next of kin say they are satisfied with the level of care.

California says:
2727.5. Liability for emergency care
A person licensed under this chapter who in good faith renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency which occurs outside both the place and the course of that person's employment shall not be liable for any civil damages as the result of acts or omissions by that person in rendering the emergency care.

So unless she was acting in a grossly negligent manner, her responsibility has been fulfilled.

The code goes on to describe 'gross negligence':
1442. Gross Negligence
As used in Section 2761 of the code, "gross negligence" includes an extreme departure from the standard of care which, under similar circumstances, would have ordinarily been exercised by a competent registered nurse. Such an extreme departure means the repeated failure to provide nursing care as required or failure to provide care or to exercise ordinary precaution in a single situation which the nurse knew, or should have known, could have jeopardized the client's health or life.

Since the nursing home had a policy of not performing CPR, you'd be hard pressed to argue that her actions constituted 'an extreme departure from the standard of care' another nurse would have performed given that those nurses would also, presumably, follow the policy.
2013-03-06 02:20:48 AM  
3 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....


And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

I hate the fact that I have to code a 78 year old Alzheimer patient who was long ago confined to a bed, contractured, and has no quality of life. But I don't get to make that decision, and neither does anyone else without the above. I abhor it. And I hope I don't get someone back in that case - as many other people will admit. Life at any costs is utterly cruel. But the alternative is letting people make decisions based on their own personal bias and feelings - decisions which may or may not be the wish of that patient.
2013-03-06 02:08:04 AM  
3 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: 'Contributed' is a very weasely word here.


How so? If this woman was a nurse, her training should have lead her to be able to identify the fact that this woman needed assistance, and her duty to act (if she's receiving a paycheck as a nurse) should have prompted her to render basic emergency aid until the arrival of more trained personnel. Even if this meant assisting respiration through mouth to mouth.

Her failure to act was a direct contributory factor here as a licensed nurse.

tlchwi02: sheesh, I didn't know we had the king o' nurses on fark


How dare I demand high standards out of people who's jobs demand they care for people.

No. I know the shenanigans and horrific treatment that nursing home patients, and many assisted living residents, receive. That's why it's not a stretch to see this person letting someone die.

tlchwi02: who gives a crap


Please never enter healthcare. Never touch a living, breathing creature with that attitude.
2013-03-06 01:57:39 AM  
3 votes:
So, the family that dumped her there has no problem with the fact that she's dead?

Weird. It's almost as if they didn't actually care all that much.
2013-03-06 01:53:32 AM  
3 votes:

hardinparamedic: Apparently, the woman did NOT have a Do Not Resuscitate order or Advanced Directive stating NO CPR.

It doesn't matter if the family was happy with the care or not. If she was negligent, or violated the rules of her nursing practice, she needs to be held accountable for it.


Except its not a nursing facility and the residents are informed of what care will and will not be given when they choose to live there instead of the assisted living facility or the full nursing facility also run by the same organization.
  While I can understand why some people are seemingly upset over what happened, the family is ok with it, so it should all be good.  Just because it is theoretically possible to extend someones life doesn't mean we have to try and extend their life at any point unless they are in a medical facility that is under standards to take all measures unless otherwise specified.   CPR most likely wouldn't have saved her life, and it could have potentially been worse by instead extending it just long enough to die in a hospital a day or two later disoriented and dealing with pain from a few bruised or broken ribs (very possible for an 87 year old getting CPR).
2013-03-06 01:49:28 AM  
3 votes:
When it's someone's time to go, sometimes it's better to just let them go.

This person's family shunted her into a nursing home. She was closing in on 90 years of life. She'd lived a long one, if not a good one. The next few would be filled with pain and loneliness.

Goodbye grandma. May you rest in peace.
2013-03-06 01:41:23 AM  
3 votes:

ThunderPelvis: A fairly recent poll of doctors found that they'd reject most extreme life-saving measures, including CPR.

Why? Because doctors know that these procedures have a terrible record when it comes to saving lives, and, even on the rare occasions when they do save lives for any meaningful length of time, regularly result in permanent disability.

/don't have time for cite. You have teh google.


Except for the fact that some arrests are highly survivable, even at old age, with prompt bystander care and BLS into ACLS care, combined with rapid transport to a cardiac facility. In-hospital Cardiac Arrest survival approaches 75%.

The AHA is very specific on this. You don't get to play god because you think you can decide who can leave the hospital with a CPC score of 1.
2013-03-06 12:35:42 AM  
3 votes:

me texan: Putting someone in the rescue position is not performing CPR.


Assisting for ineffective respirations, and identifying agonal breathing is not placing someone in the rescue position.

FirstNationalBastard: Of course they're happy.

Odds are, Grandma was a near-vegetable that had drained them both emotionally and financially to the brink of ruin because her body was just too stubborn to die even though the mind had checked out long ago. But, unlike if a beloved family pet's quality of life had degraded to almost nothing, no one could take Grandma to the Doctor and give her a nice sleepytime shot to put her out of her misery, because with humans, life is all about quantity, not quality.


Unless that woman had a valid, signed DNR, or had a Doctor at her side telling her not to start CPR, that does not matter. She had a legal duty, if employed as a nurse for that facility, to act in the standard of care with basic competency, per the California Board of Nursing.

Facility policies do not trump State Nursing laws.
2013-03-06 03:48:01 AM  
2 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: nursing is one of the FEW professions where literally EVERYONE is out to fark you. doctors, families, patients, OTHER NURSES, CNA's, janitors, etc. EVERYONE actively tries to find how "that nurse" farked up and nail them to the wall for it.


Have you ever considered the possibility that it's not everyone else, and that it may just be you that is the problem? because going by your comments here, I'd say that would be a good bet.
2013-03-06 03:07:59 AM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: AverageAmericanGuy: 'Contributed' is a very weasely word here.

How so? If this woman was a nurse, her training should have lead her to be able to identify the fact that this woman needed assistance, and her duty to act (if she's receiving a paycheck as a nurse) should have prompted her to render basic emergency aid until the arrival of more trained personnel. Even if this meant assisting respiration through mouth to mouth.

Her failure to act was a direct contributory factor here as a licensed nurse.

tlchwi02: sheesh, I didn't know we had the king o' nurses on fark

How dare I demand high standards out of people who's jobs demand they care for people.

No. I know the shenanigans and horrific treatment that nursing home patients, and many assisted living residents, receive. That's why it's not a stretch to see this person letting someone die.

tlchwi02: who gives a crap

Please never enter healthcare. Never touch a living, breathing creature with that attitude.


It is you that should Not have entered Healthcare in the first place if this is your attitude. Your callous unprofessionalism when representing your self as an EMS first responder is disgusting at best. Lashing out at posters on a public form is certainly against union policies here, which is why I am glad you do not work for any EMS crew in our health region.

Not only that, but you make some serious assumptions, and in your desire to rely on heuristics, you shamelessly flame, and call for the firing of a woman who has not officially been recognized as a nurse with any standing license in any of the articles, including the ones you linked.

Perhaps before you decide to become so enflamed about an issue that you cannot truly pass first hand judgement on, you should consider respecting the feelings of the family above your desire to seek a reason to pass sanctimonious judgement on others.

You should consider this issue closed, and find better issues to focus on, considering you are also not investigating, or are part of any investigative body that is looking in to the woman's legal status to provide CPR or not, nor will you ever be.
2013-03-06 02:58:04 AM  
2 votes:
Hey whaddaya know, another article showing the actual TRANSCRIPT of the call.
http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/breaking-news/x738926964 /E xcerpts-from-the-Glenwood-911-call

So, speaking as-as I've mentioned-a nonlawyer, nonmedic J .Random Goon, here are facts I can glean.

1.  The patient collapsed in a public area in full view of multiple staff members and multiple other patients, and had a witnessed respiratory arrest during the course of the call.
2.  The caller (herein referred to as "caller", not "nurse", for reasons soon to be explained) promptly called for both 911 support and her boss,  as well as other coworkers within screaming distance.
3.  During the course of the call, the caller identified herself as a "nurse", but without using a proper rank name such as LPN, RN, RNA, etc.  Therefore we cannot determine the caller's licensure status.
4.  During the course of the call, the caller was not aided by ANY other facility employee within sight of the incident, and was directly ordered by her supervisor not to obey Dispatcher commands to start CPR-not for the least of which, no doubt, because of the resulting bone-crushing sights and sounds and their results on the other clients.  Facility policy was clearly not to turn "fell down, passed out, carted away by ambulance, never came back" into "fell down, passed out, nurse mashed her flat, then ambulance came."
5.  The Dispatcher attempted to order the Caller to have ANY passerby-regardless of training in CPR or other basic lifesaving, medical licensure, legal connection to the facility, or otherwise-begin CPR via telephone instruction.

Discuss.
2013-03-06 02:33:42 AM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.


Except that you are WRONG.

You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am.

If you aren't aware that certain nurses in several states are legally allowed to make this determination, then I dont know what to tell you...except that in NO state is a medic legally able to do so.
2013-03-06 02:22:25 AM  
2 votes:

evil saltine: The facility's policy takes precedence over what the 911 dispatcher says.


State Nursing law and the duty to act takes precedence over what that facility policy says.

To put it another way, if I have a facility policy to knowingly administer a medication when it is contraindicated to do so, and do so anyway because I am following policy and that patient dies, I have just committed, at best, negligent practice. At worst, negligent homicide.

That facility policy won't save you from the state boards.
2013-03-06 02:19:23 AM  
2 votes:
"Our mother and grandmother was a remarkable and intelligent woman who was blessed to have a great life of 87 years. It is the wish of our family to honor and celebrate her life at this personal time.
"Like so many seniors, it was our mother's wish to live independently. She was fully aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff. Even so, she personally selected the senior living community, and our family has come to know the staff and been very pleased with Glenwood Gardens as her home.
"It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life-prolonging intervention. Our family respects the right of all people to make their own life choices in such cases.
"We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media. Caregivers, nurses and other medical professionals have very difficult waters to tread in the legal and medical landscape of our country today.
"We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens, and is at peace.
Key statements MADE BY THE FAMILY in bold.

Everyone, including mr indignant paramedic guy...can now go have a beer and let your blood pressure go back to normal.
2013-03-06 02:18:15 AM  
2 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Of course they're happy.

Odds are, Grandma was a near-vegetable that had drained them both emotionally and financially to the brink of ruin because her body was just too stubborn to die even though the mind had checked out long ago. But, unlike if a beloved family pet's quality of life had degraded to almost nothing, no one could take Grandma to the Doctor and give her a nice sleepytime shot to put her out of her misery, because with humans, life is all about quantity, not quality.


Yup.

And oh, you're going to perform manual chest compressions on an 87 year old who is in nursing-home-care level of physical degradation?
Look, I've had two grandmothers reach that age and condition-I couldn't even give them a strong HUG without worrying about breaking ribs.  Now, admittably, I'm 240 lbs of construction worker these days, so my "hugs" and my "chest compressions" pack a lot more force than most peoples' (and my medical training is limited to first aid appropriate for use on other oversized construction workers)--but even a 100 lb "hospice aide" would likely only succeed in turning "cardiac arrest" into "cardiac laceration".

Sorry, HardinMedic, if the law says that then the law is an ass.  "In-Hospital", yes.  But this wasn't a hospital-it was a "nursing home".  The chief difference being, I believe, a lack of "cardiac facility" as well as the advanced options available in a full crash cart.
2013-03-06 02:17:35 AM  
2 votes:

log_jammin: The more you eat the more you fart: the FAMILY didn't want her resuscitated anyhow.

that's not what the article that you didn't read says.


REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

"Our mother and grandmother was a remarkable and intelligent woman who was blessed to have a great life of 87 years. It is the wish of our family to honor and celebrate her life at this personal time.
"Like so many seniors, it was our mother's wish to live independently. <b>She was fully aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff</b>. Even so, she personally selected the senior living community, and our family has come to know the staff and been very pleased with Glenwood Gardens as her home.
<b>"It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life-prolonging intervention. Our family respects the right of all people to make their own life choices in such cases.</b>
"We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media. Caregivers, nurses and other medical professionals have very difficult waters to tread in the legal and medical landscape of our country today.
"We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but<b> our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens, and is at peace.
 </b>


Take note of the statements in bold.  Guess you missed that right?
2013-03-06 02:16:39 AM  
2 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: While I would tend to agree...yelling "STRING HER UP!!!!" because you like looking like a hero/white knight doesn't change the fact that the FAMILY didn't want her resuscitated anyhow.


Um, okay. Please provide written documentation of that patient's wishes in the form of a legally admissible DNR or Advanced Directive form that is properly filled out and signed by that patient, her proxy, or the physician.

It's not about "being a hero", and I'm not "white knighting" anyone. I'm demanding a healthcare practitioner act within the ethical and legal guidelines of her profession.

And I'm not yelling String her up. This nurse deserves scrutiny, but this is an institutional failure, period. The fact California, which allows Nurse Practitioners to practice independently of a physician, has such a shocking legal loophole in their laws is mind-blowing.
2013-03-06 02:12:33 AM  
2 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: We get it.  You love being a white knight.


Expecting a nurse to act in the standards and basic competence of her profession, according to the rules set forth by the California board of nursing is a white knight?

You made a comment on the last thread that your action has saved "100s" of lives. Can I ask what you do?

The more you eat the more you fart: the family doesnt care...your indignation over what happened is pointless.


My indignation is purely professional. It has nothing to do with the family.
2013-03-06 02:11:35 AM  
2 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: Dude...give it a REST already.


no kidding.

STOP COMMENTING ON THE TOPIC PEOPLE! JUST SAY THINGS LIKE "WHO CARES" AND MOVE ON!
2013-03-06 02:09:48 AM  
2 votes:

tlchwi02: sheesh, I didn't know we had the king o' nurses on fark. who gives a crap, an old person lived in a place where she knew there weren't first responders and shockingly when she needed one, there weren't any and her family is shrugging it off. if you're that worked up about it, make sure your relatives and you lives in a place with actual medical staff on site when they/you get old. otherwise, whatever


Like who totally cares about like this. geesh. like an old died n'stuff and like who cares. I don't like get why you people comment on topics that I don't care about or take the time to understand. gosh.
2013-03-06 02:03:17 AM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: You're missing the point. By state and federal law, you do not get to make that decision. That patient, through his/her advanced directives and DNR, and a Physician who can justify the witholding of resuscitative care is the only ones who can do so.


sheesh, I didn't know we had the king o' nurses on fark. who gives a crap, an old person lived in a place where she knew there weren't first responders and shockingly when she needed one, there weren't any and her family is shrugging it off. if you're that worked up about it, make sure your relatives and you lives in a place with actual medical staff on site when they/you get old. otherwise, whatever
2013-03-06 01:59:43 AM  
2 votes:

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Except its not a nursing facility


irrelevant,

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: and the residents are informed of what care will and will not be given when they choose to live there


You think they were informed that during a medical emergency the staff would call 911 then refuse to do what 911 told them to do?

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: CPR most likely wouldn't have saved her life


you know this how?
2013-03-06 01:37:20 AM  
2 votes:
A fairly recent poll of doctors found that they'd reject most extreme life-saving measures, including CPR.

Why? Because doctors know that these procedures have a terrible record when it comes to saving lives, and, even on the rare occasions when they do save lives for any meaningful length of time, regularly result in permanent disability.

/don't have time for cite. You have teh google.
2013-03-06 01:07:29 AM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: Congratulations. You're defending a woman who failed to act when she should have recognized a peri-arrest condition, and failed to provide care a second year unlicensed extern should have known to provide.


I've only read one news article on the story and when she called 911 the woman was still breathing.  Up until reading further comments, I was not even aware the woman died.  If there are more details in this story, I cant see them -  FTFA: Please enable browser cookies to read the rest of this story.

Obviously if she was breathing and went to not breathing / cardiac arrest then at that point CPR should be administered.  From what I'd seen before the responder had identified the person as breathing.  Now that I'm reading an article I see the facility had a DNR policy and that everyone is informed when going there and agrees to it before they can be admitted.  I have no idea legally how that will stand in court, but if that's the policy and it was known and agreed upon by the victim then I dont have a problem with them sticking to it and apparently neither does the family.
2013-03-07 09:42:47 PM  
1 votes:
The more you eat the more you fart:

I have a master's +30 in my field, and am licensed by my state as a "Trauma Nurse, MSN, Level 2-A" which means I out-rank you in skill, knowledge, and practical application by an order of magnitude.

I just turned 36

There's a typo in here somewhere...
2013-03-06 10:42:56 AM  
1 votes:
The moral of the story is, BE REALLY CLEAR WITH EVERYONE ABOUT YOUR END OF LIFE WISHES. I did community outreach with seniors, and many of them had signs with their DNR wishes prominently posted in their homes that first responders couldn't miss. Others had med-id necklaces. If you want to just go when it's time, you need to tell people.
2013-03-06 09:54:09 AM  
1 votes:

ThunderPelvis: A fairly recent poll of doctors found that they'd reject most extreme life-saving measures, including CPR.

Why? Because doctors know that these procedures have a terrible record when it comes to saving lives, and, even on the rare occasions when they do save lives for any meaningful length of time, regularly result in permanent disability.

/don't have time for cite. You have teh google.


Not to mention that CPR in the elderly is pretty brutal according to my doctor husband. He says it often leads to broken ribs among other issues and just puts the person through more pain and misery before they are finally allowed to pass away. I remember him coming home during his residency some days just disturbed cause some family made the hospital "do everything they could do" and he just felt like he was torturing this poor, dying person.
2013-03-06 08:50:06 AM  
1 votes:
The more you eat the more you fart:

Now that I'm back, I can type before I leave for bed. I do owe you an apology. I let my personal feelings on the matter, as well as my fatigue and disgust at what was being presented color my words, and I was far more cutting and personal with you than I intended to be. I never intended to question your educational level, or accuse you of being a lax or unskilled nurse by any means. This was not an attempt to challenge you on who's got the bigger dick at the ConEd Urinal.

I would genuinely enjoy a more civil route of discussion from now on with you. I honestly believe that, despite our disagreement on this topic, that you have a wealth of knowledge and experience that you can share.

I do, however, distinctly disagree with several things you've said over the past few days. While you may be right, and California State Law may not be even remotely similar to the law in the State of Tennessee, I feel that ethically what happened can only be described as a nightmare.

That said, I think you have a severe misrepresentation about my profession, and just how we fit into the healthcare continuum in the system I operate in. I am not someone who went to school for two months and got a certificate. I hold an Associates Degree in my profession. While I do not have the prestigious Masters degree you hold, I am currently pursuing my BS in Nursing. I resent the fact you have called me "uneducated", and have inferred that I have no medical training at a collegiate level. I have 16 credit hours devoted to Anatomy and Physiology, Microbiology, and Nursing Pathophysiology. I have another 12 in Psychology, and I have another 8 in Biology and Science. I have over two years of intense, hands-on drilling in pediatric and neonatal critical care transport before I was even allowed to touch a patient on my own. I have to maintain general competencies each year that are above and beyond what most nurses have to demonstrate.

Contrary to what you said, I can pronounce death in the field. I can, under specific criteria like your profession, order CPR not to be performed in the absence of a DNR. Like you, my profession is dictated by the system in which I operate in and the role I operate in, and what my medical director is willing to sign off on. In addition, our skillset incorporates procedures and medications that are typically relegated to advanced practice nurses, such as suturing, chest tube placement, and the use of drugs like Ketamine and Propofol.

I do not believe, in the least, that I have to be a nurse to criticize the actions of another nurse I feel is wrong, ethically or morally. I do not have to be a nurse to look at the nursing law of my state, and point out when a practice that is undertaken is illegal or questionable according to the prescribed acts of that profession. In the past decade of doing what I do, and 12 years if you count the two I spent as a CNA in high school, I have seen countless acts of what can only be described as some of the most malicious malpractice and abuse in the LTC industry in the United States. I have also seen the slimy practices of the LTC industry when you attempt to report abuse in that industry.

If anything, I'm a very by the book person. I do not like taking shortcuts, and I do not like committing unethical acts, or seeing others do the same and attempt to justify them with situational morality. I hold the people I work with, and myself, up to high standards.

Again, I'm sorry for being rude with you. I genuinely believe you're an experienced, caring, and skilled nurse and care provider. However, at the very least - ethically and morally - I do not believe that occurred was defensible. I also understand that, had it happened in my State, the person involved would be in major trouble with both the LTC Facility Licensing Board, and the State Board of Nursing for what happened, and for withholding life support without an adequate POST form in hand.
2013-03-06 06:43:39 AM  
1 votes:
We hold low level employees legally responsible for the things they do on the job. Why can't we also hold CEOs responsible when their banks destroy the economy
2013-03-06 06:32:37 AM  
1 votes:
Always love it when there's some sparks flying between various hospital departments/professions. Made the time go by quicker on slow days in x-ray.
2013-03-06 04:27:07 AM  
1 votes:

andychrist420: Except you quoted me, so it was directed towards me.


seriously. just go to bed like you said you were.
2013-03-06 04:09:43 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: log_jammin: The more you eat the more you fart: You haven't corrected me on anything, dipshiat.

remember when you said that putting her in a facility without nursing staff was the same thing as a DNR? and implied that CPR is the same as "prolonged intervention"? boy I do. good times.

No..I dont.  because I never said EITHER of those things.


02:17:35 AM
2013-03-06 04:08:26 AM  
1 votes:

Maximer: The more you eat the more you fart:

more power to you...I cant do NICU.  It's bad enough when we get an MVA with a little kid involved as it is...

as a pediatrician once told me "If you work in the NICU, its not a question of IF you will get sued...its WHEN and how often."

Yeah, NICU definitely isn't for everyone.  And, after a while, all the loses start to take a toll.  I don't know how much longer I'll be doing it.  I think I'm getting to the end of my stretch on it... but who knows?  It's the ones like today where we were making good movement then "boom", just like that, we lose them.  *sigh*

And, unfortunately, you're right about the "getting sued" thing.  I've been lucky, but it's going to happen.  What a lot of people don't understand is that NICU patients are the weakest of the weakest and can go south on a second's notice.  Everyone in NICU is fully committed (you have to be if you want to work there) but medicine is as much an art as it is a science and sometimes the art doesn't work out exactly as planned.  But, of course, a lawsuit is in order.  It pushes a lot of great and competent people out of the field.


Well, you have MY respect for sure.

I agree, lawsuits DO push a lot of good people out.

I had to do a rotation in the NICU, and was actually surprised how FAST those little kiddos can go south.  From "juuust fine" to "there's nothing we can do" in seconds...literally.

I already know...I'm not cut out for it.  I'll stick to the ER/trauma department.
2013-03-06 03:59:23 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: You haven't corrected me on anything, dipshiat.


remember when you said that putting her in a facility without nursing staff was the same thing as a DNR? and implied that CPR is the same as "prolonged intervention"? boy I do. good times.
2013-03-06 03:44:08 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: Having an ego, and correcting someone REPEATEDLY who pretends to know what they are talking about even when they are clearly wrong are not the same things.


as someone who has corrected you repeatedly in this thread, trust me, I know the difference.
2013-03-06 03:43:50 AM  
1 votes:

Maximer: Frankly, if I ever roll by an accident scene, unless there seems to be a child or someone in severe stress, before EMS has arrived I just keep on going.  I know many people will think that I'm an asshole, but honestly, most people in the medical profession are like that.  There's just too much risk and liability to helping someone when not on the job.

In nursing school they actually highly recommended that we do not stop and help on the scenes of an accident because of the risk associated with it.  It's quite sad, but maybe we should have a look at our legal system?


I stop at every accident that I see.  Yes, it opens me up to liability that is greater than your average LPN or BSN due to my trauma nurse status, but I can't just roll by.  I have seen some awful things for sure, but have 23 roadside saves to my credit...people who would have, without any doubt, be dead if it were not for immediate medical intervention by someone who knew what they were doing.

I agree about the legal system.  I've ALWAYS said since my early days as an LPN that nursing is one of the FEW professions where literally EVERYONE is out to fark you.  doctors, families, patients, OTHER NURSES, CNA's, janitors, etc.  EVERYONE actively tries to find how "that nurse" farked up and nail them to the wall for it.

Still, I LOVE my job, and wouldnt EVER do anything else.
2013-03-06 03:35:27 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: Are you stupid or do you just not read well?


he obviously must be one of those people with a huge ego. unlike you of course. where does that lowly peon get off disagreeing with a NURSE of all people! he should know his place.
2013-03-06 03:29:45 AM  
1 votes:

Relatively Obscure: thorthor: Woman should have had DNR.

But didn't.


It's just that simple.  We wouldn't even be discussing this if she had a DNR order on file.  Instead, we have a situation where a 911 dispatcher was doing everything they could to attempt to help save a person's life with useless drones on the other end of the phone simply quoting policy.  The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what the caller was with regard to profession, what shocks people is their callous indifference to the situation.  I could side with the staff if they were offering a medically sound rebuttal during the conversation, but they didn't.  They didn't care about anything but policy.  These are people who should be working with inanimate objects, which, I suppose, is what they ended up with.
2013-03-06 03:21:52 AM  
1 votes:
if you & your family has not had to provide 24hr at home care for an elderly person unable to do for themselves you should STFU about it. your income is gone, your sleep is minimal, you have to provide care that should be given by several attendants multiple times per day. upkeep of hygiene, using the toilet, you name it, you get to do it. you still have to keep up with your bills & household chores while taking care of their bills, legal needs, taxes, banking etcetera.

if you're really lucky your relative will be mentally ill so you not only have the repetition of things every day, you'll also enjoy sarcasm, insult and all sorts of verbal abuse along with whatever farked up things that go along with their instability.

people that think it's terrible to put a loved one into a assisted center should also realize how demanding it is to get a person in a wheelchair out to the car for frequent doctors visits. it's not easy and it eats up the day. and when you get home you still have to fix meals and get chores done.

not everyone is cut out to be a caregiver to begin with. most people that work with ill people do so because it's a calling. it takes a lot of patience, training and more sympathy/empathy than most people have. and those people get to go home at the end of their shift.

dealing with someone who is a type A personality that is bitter because they've lost their independence is demanding. they lash out at those taking care of them because there is no one else for them to vent at. not all old people are nice and sweet. some are miserable and horrible: if they were dsyfunctional and mentally unstable when they were young they are even worse later.
2013-03-06 03:05:20 AM  
1 votes:
The more you eat the more you fart:

Also, I would suggest hardinparamedic stops trying to speak about the state board of nursing like he actually has authority to do so, or that he even knows wtf their rules are...considering that he isn't even a nurse.

One of the most annoying aspects of the medical profession is that every profession (i.e. doctor, RN, LPN, CNA, PA, EMT, Paramedic, etc.) think they know better or know more than every other profession in the field.  They also all seem to know how to do each other's jobs.

The medical profession is a place of huge egos unfortunately.  It's one of the major drawbacks to me.
2013-03-06 03:01:11 AM  
1 votes:

Bigdogdaddy: If someone was trapped in a burning car and I would put my life in danger should I be required to drag them out?


I would say you have a legal as well as a moral obligation to do more than just watch.
2013-03-06 02:59:54 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: Bigdogdaddy: The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

Except that you are WRONG.

You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am.

If you aren't aware that certain nurses in several states are legally allowed to make this determination, then I dont know what to tell you...except that in NO state is a medic legally able to do so.

Also, from what I understand is that if I am not trained to preform CPR correctly I am not to do so.  It is more than pounding on a chest.  Of course, I'm from a "flyover" state and it varies from state to state.

Correct.  If you dont know how to do it...at the least its gonna be ineffective, and at the worst, can actually make a bad situation even worse.

Also, I would suggest hardinparamedic stops trying to speak about the state board of nursing like he actually has authority to do so, or that he even knows wtf their rules are...considering that he isn't even a nurse.


Thank you. I know that's the way it used to be when I took CPR years ago (although my certification expired long ago).  Things change over the years.
2013-03-06 02:54:51 AM  
1 votes:
"Lorraine Bayless' family said she "personally selected" Glenwood Gardens independent living facility in Bakersfield knowing there were not "trained medical staff" and that she wanted to "die naturally...without any kind of life-prolonging intervention." "

My dad was dying of cancer, but weak and frail that he was, he got himself up and dressed and to his chair on his last day. To make a long story short, he collapsed, I called 911. I did not perform CPR and he had a DNR. Crushing his ribs might have kept him alive, what? A week or so more? Robbed of his independence from the damage caused by such actions and very likely in more severe pain?? I would love to have my dad back, I miss him terribly and I second-guess my actions to this day, 9yrs later, even though I know I did the right thing. It was painful to go through, but the death he would have preferred was there for him. Yes, we have all sorts of BS legal shiat to worry about these days, but it sounds to me like this family and nurse were abiding by what was right for the woman and her wishes. May Ms. Bayless rest in peace, may her family be left in peace in this sad time, and can we all please learn a bit from their common sense?
  
"Bayless' family reiterated in their statement that they had no qualms with the care Bayless received.

"We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens and is at peace," the statement from Bayless' family read."
2013-03-06 02:53:22 AM  
1 votes:

log_jammin: BarkingUnicorn: The place was not a nursing home, but an unregulated "independent living center."

andychrist420: There's a difference between "nursing home" and "independent living facility" She was at the latter, and they generally don't provide medical care.

you guys think you're making some sort of point by saying this, but it is completely irrelevant.

If a bagger at a grocery store called 911 because a customer was dieing then refused to perform CPR when asked by the 911 operator because it was against company policy, no one would be saying "well he wasn't at a nursing home so the customer should just expect to die".


If the bagger is not trained in CPR, he should not do it, and could actually be liable if the person is injured further.  Anything else?
2013-03-06 02:47:11 AM  
1 votes:

fusillade762: So should I still be outraged or not?


No. It's fake outrage by people who think they can live forever


BAKERSFIELD, Calif. - Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, which by law is not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents.
We are conducting an internal review to determine all of the facts about what occurred while waiting for the paramedics, who arrived moments later. Our associate who was involved was serving in the capacity of a Resident Services Director, not as a nurse.
We have communicated our deepest sympathies and condolences to this resident's family on the passing of their loved one.
2013-03-06 02:43:22 AM  
1 votes:

Bigdogdaddy: The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

Except that you are WRONG.

You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am.

If you aren't aware that certain nurses in several states are legally allowed to make this determination, then I dont know what to tell you...except that in NO state is a medic legally able to do so.

Also, from what I understand is that if I am not trained to preform CPR correctly I am not to do so.  It is more than pounding on a chest.  Of course, I'm from a "flyover" state and it varies from state to state.


Flyover state, huh? I believe it is your job to drop to your knees and pray. Remember to make a show of it so that everyone around you will know that you are morally superior to them, even those actually doing something about the situation.
2013-03-06 02:42:59 AM  
1 votes:
So, anyone know what the inheritance amount is?
2013-03-06 02:42:40 AM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: The place was not a nursing home, but an unregulated "independent living center."


andychrist420: There's a difference between "nursing home" and "independent living facility" She was at the latter, and they generally don't provide medical care.


you guys think you're making some sort of point by saying this, but it is completely irrelevant.

If a bagger at a grocery store called 911 because a customer was dieing then refused to perform CPR when asked by the 911 operator because it was against company policy, no one would be saying "well he wasn't at a nursing home so the customer should just expect to die".
2013-03-06 02:42:23 AM  
1 votes:
Where's Bronymedic, he should be in this discussion...
2013-03-06 02:32:58 AM  
1 votes:
Lots of idiocy on this thread.  Sounds like this "nurse" was screwed no matter which way she went.  Give CPR lose job, face lawsuit.  Don't give CPR face the law.  It is like when they arrested that woman that played Mary Ann from Gilligan's island for having a joint, I was like, WTF. she's pushing 70 and if she wanted a joint leave her alone.
2013-03-06 02:27:37 AM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

I hate the fact that I have to code a 78 year old Alzheimer patient who was long ago confined to a bed, contractured, and has no quality of life. But I don't get to make that decision, and neither does anyone else without the above. I abhor it. And I hope I don't get someone back in that case - as many other people will admit. Life at any costs is utterly cruel. But the alternative is letting people make decisions based on their own personal bias and feelings - decisions which may or may not be the wish of that patient.


I'm sure breaking all their ribs is *definitely* the most ethical, humane thing to do.
2013-03-06 02:22:46 AM  
1 votes:
The more you eat the more you fart:
Take note of the statements in bold.  Guess you missed that right?

Well, it didn't spell out "and before we placed her in the care of the facility, we all went to the judge and had a DNR order written and notarized, and reminded the staff to have it always taped to the foot of her bed", therefore, legally it means nada.  Right?
2013-03-06 02:22:42 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: Take note of the statements in bold.


you're not good at reading comprehension are you? cause what you said isn't the same thing as what they said. CPR isn't "prolonged intervention", and living at a place without nursing staff isn't the same as a DNR order.
2013-03-06 02:19:53 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: Apparently, the woman did NOT have a Do Not Resuscitate order or Advanced Directive stating NO CPR.

It doesn't matter if the family was happy with the care or not. If she was negligent, or violated the rules of her nursing practice, she needs to be held accountable for it.

While I would tend to agree...yelling "STRING HER UP!!!!" because you like looking like a hero/white knight doesn't change the fact that the FAMILY didn't want her resuscitated anyhow.

time to let it go.  If the family of the woman can let it go...you probably should, too.


Just read a story about a guy who beat his 2 year old to death.

Far be it from me to form a moral opinion on others' family matters, right?

I mean, if family can let it go...I probably should too, right?
2013-03-06 02:19:47 AM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: ProQA and Priority Dispatch systems are evidence based interventions that have been successfully defended in court multiple times, and are signed off on by a physician. This is not something a dispatcher just tells someone to do. In fact, dispatchers are legally prohibited from giving medical instruction outside of the ProQA/PD protocols their medical director has signed off on.


The facility's policy takes precedence over what the 911 dispatcher says.
2013-03-06 02:14:15 AM  
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: the FAMILY didn't want her resuscitated anyhow.


that's not what the article that you didn't read says.
2013-03-06 02:11:37 AM  
1 votes:

cretinbob: hardinparamedic: It doesn't matter if the family was happy with the care or not. If she was negligent, or violated the rules of her nursing practice, she needs to be held accountable for it.

She's not a nurse. She had no duty to act. I still haven't heard the 911 recording where she identifies herself as a nurse either. I've just read it.


I've heard the 911 call several times as they repeated it ad nauseum on the news, and she made it quite clear that she was a nurse.

Here's a link that can not make that fact any clearer. The Chyron caption reads "Nurse refuse to perform CPR".
You can hear her say it at 1:14.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/911-call-audio-retirement-home-nurse -r efuses-woman-18646490
2013-03-06 02:10:10 AM  
1 votes:
That's what she said.
pjmedia.com
2013-03-06 02:08:17 AM  
1 votes:
We have plenty of old people on this planet not contributing to the wealth of any nation.  They're not exactly a scarce, pecious resource.  Other people will become old and take their place, eventually.
2013-03-06 02:07:25 AM  
1 votes:
When my 95 year old grandmother was in a car accident, we didn't know she had a DNR (the sister who was in charge of that stuff was in labor when it happened; big clusterfark all around due to pre-eclampsia). So they tried various things to keep her alive for the ~ day it took my father to drive to IN from NY, and when he got there he had them continue since it took another few days for us to get the info. We still had hope at that point so they kept trying.

It ended up being a two week ordeal where she 'improved' then got worse and repeat.

No one can definitively say whether such treatment will work. Best bet is talk over the options with your loved (or un-loved) one ahead of time.
2013-03-06 01:58:42 AM  
1 votes:

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Except its not a nursing facility and the residents are informed of what care will and will not be given when they choose to live there instead of the assisted living facility or the full nursing facility also run by the same organization.


It does not matter if that woman was a licensed nurse in the employ of that capacity in that "assisted living" facility. Her employment as a nurse means she is held to the standards of the California Board of Nursing, and required to adhere to the standards of care that board expects, given the capabilities she had at the time. The client-provider relationship alone creates a duty to rescue, and a duty to act.

Facility policy does not trump the State Guidelines for standard of care, and the requirement of a physician order or signed, properly executed DNR/Advanced Directive to be present for CPR and lifesaving care to be withheld.

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: While I can understand why some people are seemingly upset over what happened, the family is ok with it, so it should all be good.


And that's good. There will be no civil action, and the family can have their peace. The problem here is that a person either identified herself as a "nurse" falsely, or was a licensed nurse who refused to perform her state's expected standard of care. It doesn't matter, in that case, if her patient's family was happy with the standard of care.

Her actions directly contributed to the death of a patient. If her only justification was "it's our policy", she's about to find out how harsh a medical licensing board can be.

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Just because it is theoretically possible to extend someones life doesn't mean we have to try and extend their life at any point unless they are in a medical facility that is under standards to take all measures unless otherwise specified.   CPR most likely wouldn't have saved her life, and it could have potentially been worse by instead extending it just long enough to die in a hospital a day or two later disoriented and dealing with pain from a few bruised or broken ribs (very possible for an 87 year old getting CPR).


You're missing the point. By state and federal law, you do not get to make that decision. That patient, through his/her advanced directives and DNR, and a Physician who can justify the witholding of resuscitative care is the only ones who can do so.
2013-03-06 01:57:49 AM  
1 votes:
Hello everybody, this is fark.com ... your opinions will always go down the drain.
2013-03-06 01:48:27 AM  
1 votes:

cretinbob: She's not a nurse. She had no duty to act.


morally she did.
2013-03-06 01:44:37 AM  
1 votes:
hardinparamedic <wall of text>

I am sure you have some valid points in there, but I am not reading it.  You've made me regret even having stated an opinion, regardless of how informed or lack thereof I was of the situation.
2013-03-06 01:28:25 AM  
1 votes:

cretinbob: She's not a nurse. She had no duty to act. I still haven't heard the 911 recording where she identifies herself as a nurse either. I've just read it.


Really? Because every article I've read on the matter identifies her as a "nurse".
2013-03-06 01:20:47 AM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: It doesn't matter if the family was happy with the care or not. If she was negligent, or violated the rules of her nursing practice, she needs to be held accountable for it.


She's not a nurse. She had no duty to act. I still haven't heard the 911 recording where she identifies herself as a nurse either. I've just read it.
2013-03-06 12:14:25 AM  
1 votes:
I have no idea what to make of this.
2013-03-06 12:08:57 AM  
1 votes:

Relatively Obscure: That's still not entirely true.


Putting someone in the rescue position is not performing CPR.
2013-03-05 10:53:36 PM  
1 votes:

me texan: Anyone actually trained in CPR knows you do not perform CPR unless the victim is not breathing.


That's still not entirely true.
 
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