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(Bakersfield Californian)   While internet rages over a "nurse" failing to perform CPR at a "nursing home", family of the 87 year old woman is OK with it   (bakersfieldcalifornian.com) divider line 380
    More: Followup, rage, CPR, home, California Attorney General, Kern County, legal recourse, elder abuse, nurses  
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9238 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Mar 2013 at 1:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-06 10:09:16 AM

me texan: hardinparamedic <wall of text>

I am sure you have some valid points in there, but I am not reading it.  You've made me regret even having stated an opinion, regardless of how informed or lack thereof I was of the situation.


I appreciate a well-referenced and well-written post. Thanks, hardinparamedic, and please feel free to respond in a similar manner to any of my posts.

/It's nice to leave a Fark thread a little better informed than when I entered it.
 
2013-03-06 10:42:56 AM
The moral of the story is, BE REALLY CLEAR WITH EVERYONE ABOUT YOUR END OF LIFE WISHES. I did community outreach with seniors, and many of them had signs with their DNR wishes prominently posted in their homes that first responders couldn't miss. Others had med-id necklaces. If you want to just go when it's time, you need to tell people.
 
2013-03-06 10:46:00 AM
How come the woman did not have a DNAR or DNR or NO CODE or Comfort Measures Only or some such euphemism for "I wanna go naturally," on her chart?  If she did then the 911 call was unnecessary.  If she did not and the nurse in question knew of her wishes then the nurse acted appropriately; she will still lose her job, but she did the right thing.  If the old woman did not have such an order then the nurse might still have acted appropriately.  More than likely the nurse acted appropriately for such a facility. I'm gonna get a tat if I live to be over 70 that says NO CPR on my tit.  Another 17 years on this lousy planet is about all I think I can take anyway.
 
2013-03-06 10:48:37 AM

Would this be the same, then, if a visitor to the facility had collapsed and was barely breathing.

Or, perhaps a resident who was maybe 55 or 60?

All well and good to say that she was old and such.   At what point does this policy apply?  Only to those 71.5 and over and a resident?

If you have an 85 year old resident and an 85 year old visitor (from outside the facility) with that patient, and they both collapse, what is done then?

 
2013-03-06 10:53:04 AM
hardinparamedic:


I respect what you said, and I too, hope for more...constructive...dialog with you from now on.

For the record, to earn an MSN, it takes the normal 128 credit hours of classes, PLUS 500 hours of hands-on training...then an additional 18 hours of physiology/pathophysiology and 21 hours of chemistry and additional biology courses, and 18 hours of Nurse Educator classes.

To earn Trauma Nurse status/licenses, the path goes like this:

BSN ->TNCC (trauma nursing core course) while working in an ER ->CEN (certified emergency nurse) certification -> work for at LEAST two years in an emergency medicine setting -> earn your MSN.

This adds up to more than 10 full years of education, 90% of being hand-on, and even a brand-new trauma nurse will have more than 2,000 hours of actual hands-on experience.

The debate at hand...whether this nurse acted ethically or morally, is NOT what I was arguing, NOR was I stating what *I* would do in that situation.  Personally speaking, I'd say "fark you" to the facility director and do whatever I thought was RIGHT....fark everyone else.

A LOT of my job consists of knowing the rules and knowing when to play "by the book" and knowing when to say "fark the rules....this needs to be done to save this person."

In addition to an area of specialization, MSN nurses are also allowed to suture, perform certain minor surgical procedures, prescribe most medications, prescribe courses of treatment, make a diagnosis, etc.

I am sure you are a very good paramedic.  The education aspect I was only arguing because I think a lot of people underestimate the skill that someone who is a nurse possesses.  As an MSN trauma nurse, otherwise known as an ENP in my state, I hold many certifications (including psych)....as do all of the other ENP's where I work, however, I am the only MALE enp that works in my hospital.

Do I PERSONALLY have a problem with what this woman did?  Yes.  Professionally?  Not from what I've read thusfar.  Would I have made the same decision?  There's no way i can answer that.  It would depend on what I personally witnesses or saw, and the result of an assessment that i would have personally performed at the time.  I cannot, and would not be able to say what I would have done without that.

I typically am "by the book" but part of my skill involves being able to be CREATIVE in the application of the knowledge I possess in the course of doing my job.  There are often situations where a "by the book" solution just doesn't cut it...or doesn't work....and you have to "think outside the box" and figure out how to get the job done.

When I was an LPN, I worked in LTC settings, and I too saw things like you eluded to.  I will never put anyone I know in an LTC facility as a result of things I saw.  And yes, I reported them when i saw them.

for the record, I have a DNR order...because I know better.  Allow me a dignified death at the least...I dont want my ribs broken and to be manhandled or mauled as I am taking my last breaths.

the truth is...and I have EXTENSIVE experience with this....CPR that has to be performed for longer than a few minutes is usually (more than 90% of the time) ineffective....and if the person DOES "survive" they suffer from anoxic brain syndrome, if they even regain consciousness at all.

That is why most of the ED personnel that I work with have DNR's signed, even though most of us are in our 20's and 30's.

I apologize for my rudeness as well...its not characteristic of me, and I hope you can accept my apology because it is sincere.
 
2013-03-06 11:29:14 AM

SarcasticFark: The so-called 'moral obligation' is the only area open for debate in this whole situation.  I'm not saying that the policies of my workplace would prevent me from giving CPR in the same situation...but I certainly WOULD consider the fact that I would be placing my entire livelihood in jeopardy by doing so.  I can't honestly say that I blame the woman in question if she wasn't willing to lose her job over it.


I understand your view, but the moral imperative seems clear to me.

If you know CPR and refuse to save a human life because you might need to find a new job then you are not a good nurse or a good person. I understand how a person could make such a choice, but I certainly could not be friends with that person.
 
2013-03-06 11:30:45 AM
Man, I wish I had access to the fark.com access logs.  It would make threads like this some much more fun in retrospect.
 
2013-03-06 11:47:44 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic:

 I am the only MALE enp that works in my hospital.


Ha. Feel like an oddity? I went through the same in 1982-86. No men. I was often mistaken for an "orderly". The upside is that you are treated like a peer by the medical staff. First names and all that. That's the male realm that my female co-workers could not, or would not cross. It was automatically assumed, and I believed it too, that I would move into management too.

As I moved to CC and ED, and a new hospital, suddenly there was 8 other male RN's to cramp my style! Balloon deflates.


You defended yourself well in here. Maybe a bit vitriolic, but I agree with most of what you said. Given the education and position you hold, I can deduce that you are younger than my 57 yrs. As you move on in age, I do hope that you will maintain your passion. The main problem of our profession, and others in the field, is loosing that passion and burning out. You know some of them don't you? Most of my peers were counting the days to retirement (if they made it).

Thats what happened to me after 30 years, and I'm glad I'm out. Lots of pressure.


As to having a relationship with another nurse, my advice is not to. Shop talk. Find someone outside your profession, like I did. 28 yrs happily married!

Cheers!

/in Canada btw.

 
2013-03-06 11:49:18 AM
Farkin hit "post comment" instead of fixing the big spaces first.
/old(er)
 
2013-03-06 11:50:31 AM

tlchwi02: hardinparamedic: You're missing the point. By state and federal law, you do not get to make that decision. That patient, through his/her advanced directives and DNR, and a Physician who can justify the witholding of resuscitative care is the only ones who can do so.

sheesh, I didn't know we had the king o' nurses on fark. who gives a crap, an old person lived in a was placed by her family into a place where she they knew there weren't first responders and shockingly when she needed one, there weren't any and her family is shrugging it off. if you're that worked up about it, make sure your relatives and you lives in a place with actual medical staff on site when they/you get old. otherwise, whatever


It more than likely wasn't the old lady's choice to live at that particular home. Perhaps she was a banshee to the kids and grandkids while she was still around. That could be why they give exactly zero farks that she's dead.
 
2013-03-06 12:10:13 PM
How big was the check?
 
2013-03-06 12:23:06 PM

Dumski: Trauma Nurse, NICU RN, ICU RN, Paramedic(s), Doctor (you will note I did not place him/her first in line), Radiology Tech, Hospital Telcom, and I would assume several undisclosed paramedicals. Oh, and I forgot the Lawyer. If I didn't mention other active participants, I apologize.


Slight correction, I'm a former radiography student. I pulled out of my course for a multitude of reasons. It's extremely hard to work in a hospital environment, and I have a lot of respect for those who do.

While I did perform well during my placements, I found it hard to emotionally seperate myself from the work during the weekends I had off. The time spent assisting on neo-natal was utterly brutal in this regard. If you can hack it, great. I recognized that I could not.
 
2013-03-06 12:27:08 PM

Dumski: The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic:
 I am the only MALE enp that works in my hospital.
Ha. Feel like an oddity? I went through the same in 1982-86. No men. I was often mistaken for an "orderly". The upside is that you are treated like a peer by the medical staff. First names and all that. That's the male realm that my female co-workers could not, or would not cross. It was automatically assumed, and I believed it too, that I would move into management too.As I moved to CC and ED, and a new hospital, suddenly there was 8 other male RN's to cramp my style! Balloon deflates.
You defended yourself well in here. Maybe a bit vitriolic, but I agree with most of what you said. Given the education and position you hold, I can deduce that you are younger than my 57 yrs. As you move on in age, I do hope that you will maintain your passion. The main problem of our profession, and others in the field, is loosing that passion and burning out. You know some of them don't you? Most of my peers were counting the days to retirement (if they made it).Thats what happened to me after 30 years, and I'm glad I'm out. Lots of pressure.
As to having a relationship with another nurse, my advice is not to. Shop talk. Find someone outside your profession, like I did. 28 yrs happily married!Cheers!/in Canada btw.


For the record, i just turned 36.

Yeah, i sometimes feel out of place , but i truly love what i do.

Ive dated a few nurses, only had "shop talk" issues with one or two. However, im currently engaged to a clinical psychologist. She's a blast :)
 
2013-03-06 12:29:52 PM

log_jammin: me texan: I am sure you have some valid points in there, but I am not reading it. You've made me regret even having stated an opinion, regardless of how informed or lack thereof I was of the situation.

That really kind of sums up fark.

Give an opinion where you say everyone else is stupid, on a subject that you know nothing about. when given a point by point rebuttal that shows you don't know WTF you're talking about, say you won't read it because....something. Then walk away feeling superior.


I'd usually agree, but wall'o'text quoting is just about the hardest to reply to, so this may not be a prime example of that mentality.

/Seriously. People. Number your points or something, don't type  into the quote, it makes it hell to reply and gives you ten emails to reply to.
//It's Fark, it's not supposed to be work to reply.
 
2013-03-06 01:32:21 PM

hardinparamedic: evil saltine: The facility's policy takes precedence over what the 911 dispatcher says.

State Nursing law and the duty to act takes precedence over what that facility policy says.

To put it another way, if I have a facility policy to knowingly administer a medication when it is contraindicated to do so, and do so anyway because I am following policy and that patient dies, I have just committed, at best, negligent practice. At worst, negligent homicide.

That facility policy won't save you from the state boards.


Food for thought: Was she working in the capacity of a nurse at the time? If the answer is no then does she have an obligation still?

I suspect that, legally, that is where it hinges but I do not know.
 
2013-03-06 02:35:32 PM
One question. Where the hell do you live Fart that you have saved 23 people in car accidents, that you just happened to drive by, at the age of 36? Do people not have steering wheels on the their cars where you live? Am I the only one who thinks that is super weird?
 
2013-03-06 02:55:16 PM
SpectroBoy:

She is a HUMAN and had a human moral obligation to help a dying old woman with a very simply procedure that she KNOWS HOW TO DO.

If she was willing to stand by and do nothing (because she feared fear getting fired) and watch an old woman die slowly she is a piece of shiat regardless of what her contract says or what the law says.


Actually, this death was blessedly fast.

I'll say it again:  your morality does not create my obligation.  To claim it does puts you in bed with all the other morality legislators.  I wonder how many who are clamoring for new laws over this case also oppose gay marriage or abortion.
 
2013-03-06 02:57:34 PM

MPAVictoria: One question. Where the hell do you live Fart that you have saved 23 people in car accidents, that you just happened to drive by, at the age of 36? Do people not have steering wheels on the their cars where you live? Am I the only one who thinks that is super weird?


Even *I* thought it was weird..especially considering that at LEAST 8 of those were in the span of only about 3 months.  My gf at the time even made the comment "Let me know when you're gonna be on the road, because people seem to get into bad accidents around you, and I dont wanna be driving while you are."

A few of the bad ones:  A motorcyclist who lost control for some reason I STILL cant figure out no matter how many times I replay it in my head.  We was wearing one of those "skull cap" type helmets and face-planted at 45 mph...the roadway effectively belt-sanding his face away down to the level of his eye sockets.

A chevy s-10 hit by an 18 wheeler.  the front right tire of the truck ending up on TOP of the s-10, crushing the guy who was driving.

motorcyclist and passenger swerved into the side of a car in the next lane on the interstate bridge, causing them to wipe out at 65mph.  Driver was D.O.I...the passenger...his wife...unfortunately lived for a few minutes, despite obviously fatal cranial trauma.

I'd go on, but you get the idea.

/drivers in this city are NOTORIOUSLY piss-poor.  I myself have been hit 4 times...all from behind...and ALL while I was stopped at a red light.  The worse one was by an 18 wheeler who never even hit the brakes.  Broke my c-4 vertebrae and left me temporarily paralyzed from the neck down for 3 months until surgeons could remove the bone fragments and the swelling went down enough to decompress my spinal cord.
 
2013-03-06 02:57:50 PM
It's weird only if you live somewhere that makes sense.  The closer you get to a large inner city, the more likely his statement may be true.  People are dumb-arsier the closer they have to live to each other.  They like to call it "keeping it real".  *grin*

In Maine I've almost never seen the crap that I've seen in NYC.  There was much more of a tendency to be kind to your neighbors and help each other out.  In NYC, it's major headlines if someone is honest or helpful.
 
2013-03-06 02:59:38 PM
Sorry for typos....im exhausted.  Time for a nap.
 
2013-03-06 03:00:57 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: MPAVictoria: One question. Where the hell do you live Fart that you have saved 23 people in car accidents, that you just happened to drive by, at the age of 36? Do people not have steering wheels on the their cars where you live? Am I the only one who thinks that is super weird?

Even *I* thought it was weird..especially considering that at LEAST 8 of those were in the span of only about 3 months.  My gf at the time even made the comment "Let me know when you're gonna be on the road, because people seem to get into bad accidents around you, and I dont wanna be driving while you are."

A few of the bad ones:  A motorcyclist who lost control for some reason I STILL cant figure out no matter how many times I replay it in my head.  We was wearing one of those "skull cap" type helmets and face-planted at 45 mph...the roadway effectively belt-sanding his face away down to the level of his eye sockets.

A chevy s-10 hit by an 18 wheeler.  the front right tire of the truck ending up on TOP of the s-10, crushing the guy who was driving.

motorcyclist and passenger swerved into the side of a car in the next lane on the interstate bridge, causing them to wipe out at 65mph.  Driver was D.O.I...the passenger...his wife...unfortunately lived for a few minutes, despite obviously fatal cranial trauma.

I'd go on, but you get the idea.

/drivers in this city are NOTORIOUSLY piss-poor.  I myself have been hit 4 times...all from behind...and ALL while I was stopped at a red light.  The worse one was by an 18 wheeler who never even hit the brakes.  Broke my c-4 vertebrae and left me temporarily paralyzed from the neck down for 3 months until surgeons could remove the bone fragments and the swelling went down enough to decompress my spinal cord.


Jesus man. I am 29 and I have NEVER *Knock on wood* passed by anything like that.

lyanna96: It's weird only if you live somewhere that makes sense.  The closer you get to a large inner city, the more likely his statement may be true.  People are dumb-arsier the closer they have to live to each other.  They like to call it "keeping it real".  *grin*

In Maine I've almost never seen the crap that I've seen in NYC.  There was much more of a tendency to be kind to your neighbors and help each other out.  In NYC, it's major headlines if someone is honest or helpful.


I live in a city of over a million people.
 
2013-03-06 03:01:22 PM
Hey fart, GET SOME SLEEP!  You've been up all night!
 
2013-03-06 03:04:51 PM

lyanna96: Hey fart, GET SOME SLEEP!  You've been up all night!


I know.  But hey...I'm a nurse remember....I'm used to it. lol
 
2013-03-06 03:13:34 PM
MPAVictoria:
Jesus man. I am 29 and I have NEVER *Knock on wood* passed by anything like that.

Oh, like I said, I could go on.

and I didnt pass by those wrecks.  I was THERE...and stopped to try and do whatever i could to help.  Let's just say I've SAVED 23.  I've stopped at far more.

one of the saves:  guy ran off the road on Hwy 69 (yeah yeah, I know...its highway 69) right past the Gator Stop (anyone in s. Louisiana would know where this is) in a blue single cab silverado.  Early 20's type, probably going WAY too fast for the curve and ran off the road, clipping a few trees on the way.

Front of the truck ended up in the bayou, the roof was folded in like a sardine can in reverse.  He was pinned inside.  A fireman and myself were first on the scene.  I jumped in the bed of the truck and kicked out the back window so that i could get to the guy while the fireman jumped up on the cowl of the truck that was still above the water in an attempt to pull the roof back out so we could extricate him from the truck.

The guy was talking, but not making any sense.  I noticed he had a speaker box resting by the back right side of his head.  I felt around the box before trying to move him, and realized the speaker box had punched about a 2-inch hole in his skull when it flew up from behind him and cracked him in the head...apparently the corner of the box got him with enough force to actually punch a hole.

We had VERY little choice, as the truck was clearly sliding towards the water, so as I ripped off the sleeve of my shirt to tie around the guy's head to close the hole so we could move him, the fireman managed to pull the roof back finally.  Right about then, EMS arrives with 8 or 9 guys.  I tell em whats up, and they brought out a more rigid bandage for his head and called air med.

guy lived as far as I know...or at least he was still talking in babbles when they took him to the helicopter.
 
2013-03-06 03:16:03 PM
Can't believe this thread is still going, and people are still making dumb statements without reading the article.  There is no issue here.  Everyone involved is fine with what happened, except for maybe the employee, and that's only because a bunch of internet morons are trying to make a big deal/feel superior about it.

We should all thank Fart, not just for what he does, but also for providing the voice of reason and logic in this thread.  Not to denigrate anyone else, but Fart made this thread his biatch.  Must have been a slow night in the ER.  And as a hospital frequent flyer, (~11 months since 2004) people like him are the ones that get shiat done.  They know their job and don't take any shiat.  People like you have saved my life on multiple occasions.
 
2013-03-06 03:19:04 PM

andychrist420: Can't believe this thread is still going, and people are still making dumb statements without reading the article.  There is no issue here.  Everyone involved is fine with what happened, except for maybe the employee, and that's only because a bunch of internet morons are trying to make a big deal/feel superior about it.

We should all thank Fart, not just for what he does, but also for providing the voice of reason and logic in this thread.  Not to denigrate anyone else, but Fart made this thread his biatch.  Must have been a slow night in the ER.  And as a hospital frequent flyer, (~11 months since 2004) people like him are the ones that get shiat done.  They know their job and don't take any shiat.  People like you have saved my life on multiple occasions.


I have no idea why you've needed saving multiple times, but hopefully you wont need it anymore lol.

thanks for the compliment.  However, should you need us and happen to be in South Louisiana...we'll be there for you :)
 
2013-03-06 03:29:17 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: andychrist420: Can't believe this thread is still going, and people are still making dumb statements without reading the article.  There is no issue here.  Everyone involved is fine with what happened, except for maybe the employee, and that's only because a bunch of internet morons are trying to make a big deal/feel superior about it.

We should all thank Fart, not just for what he does, but also for providing the voice of reason and logic in this thread.  Not to denigrate anyone else, but Fart made this thread his biatch.  Must have been a slow night in the ER.  And as a hospital frequent flyer, (~11 months since 2004) people like him are the ones that get shiat done.  They know their job and don't take any shiat.  People like you have saved my life on multiple occasions.

I have no idea why you've needed saving multiple times, but hopefully you wont need it anymore lol.

thanks for the compliment.  However, should you need us and happen to be in South Louisiana...we'll be there for you :)


Hopefully.  I had viral encephalitis, and almost died twice, was in a coma for 6 weeks.  Then 2 pressure sores and bone infection (due to Doctor negligence, nurses tried telling him, he was indifferent) and other major life threatening invasive surgeries.  This thread is seriously making me consider a DNR, although my wife would probably not like that.  She has this idea we're going to live a long life together, but I know that my life expectancy has been cut significantly, and I'm fine with that.
 
2013-03-06 03:31:41 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: andychrist420: Can't believe this thread is still going, and people are still making dumb statements without reading the article.  There is no issue here.  Everyone involved is fine with what happened, except for maybe the employee, and that's only because a bunch of internet morons are trying to make a big deal/feel superior about it.

We should all thank Fart, not just for what he does, but also for providing the voice of reason and logic in this thread.  Not to denigrate anyone else, but Fart made this thread his biatch.  Must have been a slow night in the ER.  And as a hospital frequent flyer, (~11 months since 2004) people like him are the ones that get shiat done.  They know their job and don't take any shiat.  People like you have saved my life on multiple occasions.

I have no idea why you've needed saving multiple times, but hopefully you wont need it anymore lol.

thanks for the compliment.  However, should you need us and happen to be in South Louisiana...we'll be there for you :)


If he's in Louisiana, he doesn't need an ER; he needs a psychiatric hospital.
 
2013-03-06 03:36:02 PM

andychrist420: The more you eat the more you fart: andychrist420: Can't believe this thread is still going, and people are still making dumb statements without reading the article.  There is no issue here.  Everyone involved is fine with what happened, except for maybe the employee, and that's only because a bunch of internet morons are trying to make a big deal/feel superior about it.

We should all thank Fart, not just for what he does, but also for providing the voice of reason and logic in this thread.  Not to denigrate anyone else, but Fart made this thread his biatch.  Must have been a slow night in the ER.  And as a hospital frequent flyer, (~11 months since 2004) people like him are the ones that get shiat done.  They know their job and don't take any shiat.  People like you have saved my life on multiple occasions.

I have no idea why you've needed saving multiple times, but hopefully you wont need it anymore lol.

thanks for the compliment.  However, should you need us and happen to be in South Louisiana...we'll be there for you :)

Hopefully.  I had viral encephalitis, and almost died twice, was in a coma for 6 weeks.  Then 2 pressure sores and bone infection (due to Doctor negligence, nurses tried telling him, he was indifferent) and other major life threatening invasive surgeries.  This thread is seriously making me consider a DNR, although my wife would probably not like that.  She has this idea we're going to live a long life together, but I know that my life expectancy has been cut significantly, and I'm fine with that.


Well damn dude...im sorry to hear all that.  Your life of cipro and/or levaquin and pain killers has to be rough.

I'll say this much.  I'm 36 and in pretty darn good health (minus some occasional severe pain due to the afformentioned previously broken neck) and I have a DNR signed, with a copy given to each an every one of my immediate family.

Why?  because I know better.
 
2013-03-06 03:37:48 PM
BarkingUnicorn:
If he's in Louisiana, he doesn't need an ER; he needs a psychiatric hospital.


That's okay...I also hold certification as a MHNP due to my previous experience/training.  He would be good to go *wink*
 
2013-03-06 03:48:44 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: andychrist420: The more you eat the more you fart: andychrist420: Can't believe this thread is still going, and people are still making dumb statements without reading the article.  There is no issue here.  Everyone involved is fine with what happened, except for maybe the employee, and that's only because a bunch of internet morons are trying to make a big deal/feel superior about it.

We should all thank Fart, not just for what he does, but also for providing the voice of reason and logic in this thread.  Not to denigrate anyone else, but Fart made this thread his biatch.  Must have been a slow night in the ER.  And as a hospital frequent flyer, (~11 months since 2004) people like him are the ones that get shiat done.  They know their job and don't take any shiat.  People like you have saved my life on multiple occasions.

I have no idea why you've needed saving multiple times, but hopefully you wont need it anymore lol.

thanks for the compliment.  However, should you need us and happen to be in South Louisiana...we'll be there for you :)

Hopefully.  I had viral encephalitis, and almost died twice, was in a coma for 6 weeks.  Then 2 pressure sores and bone infection (due to Doctor negligence, nurses tried telling him, he was indifferent) and other major life threatening invasive surgeries.  This thread is seriously making me consider a DNR, although my wife would probably not like that.  She has this idea we're going to live a long life together, but I know that my life expectancy has been cut significantly, and I'm fine with that.

Well damn dude...im sorry to hear all that.  Your life of cipro and/or levaquin and pain killers has to be rough.

I'll say this much.  I'm 36 and in pretty darn good health (minus some occasional severe pain due to the afformentioned previously broken neck) and I have a DNR signed, with a copy given to each an every one of my immediate family.

Why?  because I know better.


Throw in a wheelchair, and it can be downright miserable.  Luckily I'm in California, which is a medical marijuana state.  Like cpr, it's not a magical remedy, but it sure does help with pain and misery.
 
2013-03-06 03:50:33 PM
andychrist420:

Which is why I, as a medical professional, am FOR the medical use of pot.

Sometimes, you gotta say "fark the rules...do what's right".
 
2013-03-06 04:03:35 PM
I bet she's a CNA, and the press heard "nursing assistant" and assumed that was a kind of nurse.
 
2013-03-06 04:17:30 PM
As a paramedic, I encounter this predicament once in a while. The problem with this situation is that as a nurse, she has a duty to act .  If the person does not have a DNR, resuscitative efforts are given. As medical professionals,we are always trained to err on the side of the patient. That duty to act  supersedes the facility she works for. She opened herself for that liability.  I won't be surprised if she loses her license.
 
2013-03-06 04:30:29 PM

audioguy16: As a paramedic, I encounter this predicament once in a while. The problem with this situation is that as a nurse, she has a duty to act .  If the person does not have a DNR, resuscitative efforts are given. As medical professionals,we are always trained to err on the side of the patient. That duty to act  supersedes the facility she works for. She opened herself for that liability.  I won't be surprised if she loses her license.



Nurse practice acts declare what a nurse is legally able to do in each state.  They do not declare what a nurse must do in every situation.

Facility rules supersede nurse practice acts so long as they do not cause a nurse to act out of scope.  It's a lot like how the States are not supposed to pass laws that supersede the fed.

an ex:  In some states I can insert a flexible feeding tube called a dobhoff.  In those states, in some facilities, it is against facility policy to let a nurse do that even though the state NPAs do not prohibit it.  (as an example that removes a lot of the emotion here.)

There are a lot of 'ifs' in the information around this story and people filling in the blanks.  My 'ifs':

If this is an actual CA nurse
If the nurse was an employee of the assisted living home (not a medical facility in the traditional sense)
If the residents and facility were a 'no heroic measures' kind of place
then I don't have a problem with the nurse not providing CPR, and if I was employed there I would not have either

I understand a lot of folks emotion and quoting rules and regulations, however it's not nearly so simple.
 
2013-03-06 04:44:07 PM

BafflerMeal: audioguy16: As a paramedic, I encounter this predicament once in a while. The problem with this situation is that as a nurse, she has a duty to act .  If the person does not have a DNR, resuscitative efforts are given. As medical professionals,we are always trained to err on the side of the patient. That duty to act  supersedes the facility she works for. She opened herself for that liability.  I won't be surprised if she loses her license.


Nurse practice acts declare what a nurse is legally able to do in each state.  They do not declare what a nurse must do in every situation.

Facility rules supersede nurse practice acts so long as they do not cause a nurse to act out of scope.  It's a lot like how the States are not supposed to pass laws that supersede the fed.

an ex:  In some states I can insert a flexible feeding tube called a dobhoff.  In those states, in some facilities, it is against facility policy to let a nurse do that even though the state NPAs do not prohibit it.  (as an example that removes a lot of the emotion here.)

There are a lot of 'ifs' in the information around this story and people filling in the blanks.  My 'ifs':

If this is an actual CA nurse
If the nurse was an employee of the assisted living home (not a medical facility in the traditional sense)
If the residents and facility were a 'no heroic measures' kind of place
then I don't have a problem with the nurse not providing CPR, and if I was employed there I would not have either

I understand a lot of folks emotion and quoting rules and regulations, however it's not nearly so simple.


It is simple.  It's just policy.
 
2013-03-06 04:51:58 PM

SpectroBoy: SarcasticFark: The so-called 'moral obligation' is the only area open for debate in this whole situation.  I'm not saying that the policies of my workplace would prevent me from giving CPR in the same situation...but I certainly WOULD consider the fact that I would be placing my entire livelihood in jeopardy by doing so.  I can't honestly say that I blame the woman in question if she wasn't willing to lose her job over it.

I understand your view, but the moral imperative seems clear to me.

If you know CPR and refuse to save a human life because you might need to find a new job then you are not a good nurse or a good person. I understand how a person could make such a choice, but I certainly could not be friends with that person.


And while I understand how you couldn't be friends with someone like that, I also understand that it's entirely possible that the 'nurse' in question could possibly NEED that job more than you or I know at this point.  Perhaps that job helps her provide much needed health insurance and money to keep her own family afloat.  To put it in perspective: in my current situation, I certainly WOULD risk my job in order to save a life.  However, if I had a sick child or family member at home that depended upon my insurance or income, there is NO WAY I would risk my own family to help anyone.

It's so easy to judge while on the outside looking in.
 
2013-03-06 05:37:20 PM
At the risk of sounding like an asshole, the nurse (or whatever she is) could have just administered CPR, just not quite as robustly as she might have for a younger, healthier person, the old lady would have died anyway, and we wouldn't be talking about this now.

Doing something that really isn't good enough is not the same as doing nothing. Seems to me if you call yourself a nurse, you do something. You don't just call 911 and then tell the operator that the "rules" command you to sit there and do nothing whatsoever while a person dies right in front of you. She (the nurse) obviously isn't too smart, or this would have occurred to her. Better to try (albeit not very hard) and fail to save the life of an old lady than to be singled out, worldwide, as someone who just sits back and watches somebody die. It's on a public record now. I wouldn't want to be her looking for a job as a nurse anytime soon. Nor would I want to be her patient.
 
2013-03-06 05:49:26 PM
This all could have been avoided if she waited until after the granny died before making the call. If it was policy to not help why call at all until she was cold?
 
2013-03-06 06:14:58 PM
this thread hurt me.
 
2013-03-06 06:17:30 PM

pacified: this thread hurt me.


The previous one was worse.
 
2013-03-06 06:34:52 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: At the risk of sounding like an asshole, the nurse (or whatever she is) could have just administered CPR, just not quite as robustly as she might have for a younger, healthier person, the old lady would have died anyway, and we wouldn't be talking about this now.

Doing something that really isn't good enough is not the same as doing nothing. Seems to me if you call yourself a nurse, you do something. You don't just call 911 and then tell the operator that the "rules" command you to sit there and do nothing whatsoever while a person dies right in front of you. She (the nurse) obviously isn't too smart, or this would have occurred to her. Better to try (albeit not very hard) and fail to save the life of an old lady than to be singled out, worldwide, as someone who just sits back and watches somebody die. It's on a public record now. I wouldn't want to be her looking for a job as a nurse anytime soon. Nor would I want to be her patient.


Or you could RTFA.  The policy of this independent living center (not medical facility) was medical help was not provided other than calling 911.  She, and her family knew this going in, and were fine with it.  This is a non-story, except for the internet moralists/white knights
 
2013-03-06 06:52:19 PM

andychrist420: Smelly Pirate Hooker: At the risk of sounding like an asshole, the nurse (or whatever she is) could have just administered CPR, just not quite as robustly as she might have for a younger, healthier person, the old lady would have died anyway, and we wouldn't be talking about this now.

Doing something that really isn't good enough is not the same as doing nothing. Seems to me if you call yourself a nurse, you do something. You don't just call 911 and then tell the operator that the "rules" command you to sit there and do nothing whatsoever while a person dies right in front of you. She (the nurse) obviously isn't too smart, or this would have occurred to her. Better to try (albeit not very hard) and fail to save the life of an old lady than to be singled out, worldwide, as someone who just sits back and watches somebody die. It's on a public record now. I wouldn't want to be her looking for a job as a nurse anytime soon. Nor would I want to be her patient.

Or you could RTFA.  The policy of this independent living center (not medical facility) was medical help was not provided other than calling 911.  She, and her family knew this going in, and were fine with it.  This is a non-story, except for the internet moralists/white knights


I did read it.

It's irrelevant what the family thinks about how all this shakes out. I doubt their opinion is going to matter much if this nurse is dragged before whatever state board licenses her. They don't really have anything to lose here, other than their grandma, and that's a done deal.

And it probably doesn't matter what the "policy" of the center is, either. If the center goes to bat for this nurse against whatever state entity might want to discipline her, I'll be really surprised. I'm guessing if they feel they have to, they'll throw her under the bus and feel no regret whatsoever.

Maybe it won't come to that. Hopefully, it won't.

And apparently it isn't a non-story. It's been all over the place as a story for several days now.

I'm just saying, if I was a nurse and I had to choose between A) Being the nurse who got fired for performing CPR on an old lady even though the policy says not to and B) Being the nurse who everybody thinks is a horrible person for not doing anything and prompting a 911 operator to beg me to grab someone off the street to do it, I'd choose A.
 
2013-03-06 07:09:06 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: It's irrelevant what the family thinks about how all this shakes out. I doubt their opinion is going to matter much if this nurse is dragged before whatever state board licenses her. They don't really have anything to lose here, other than their grandma, and that's a done deal.

And it probably doesn't matter what the "policy" of the center is, either. If the center goes to bat for this nurse against whatever state entity might want to discipline her, I'll be really surprised. I'm guessing if they feel they have to, they'll throw her under the bus and feel no regret whatsoever.

Maybe it won't come to that. Hopefully, it won't.

And apparently it isn't a non-story. It's been all over the place as a story for several days now.

I'm just saying, if I was a nurse and I had to choose between A) Being the nurse who got fired for performing CPR on an old lady even though the policy says not to and B) Being the nurse who everybody thinks is a horrible person for not doing anything and prompting a 911 operator to beg me to grab someone off the street to do it, I'd choose A.


The family's feelings are relevant because they're the only ones with standing to sue.  It's the feelings of everyone else that are irrelevant.

Nursing boards' standards don't apply to nurses when they are not nursing; nurses in this thread have confirmed that.  I can't imagine why a facility that doesn't offer nursing services would have a nursing job.

She's not a celebrity nurse, ffs.  I'd rather have a bunch of strangers hate me than have my kids ask when we're going to eat and have a bathroom again.

This nurse's job prospects will be hurt only with employers who want employees to ignore  the employers' rules.
 
2013-03-06 07:15:53 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: andychrist420: Smelly Pirate Hooker: At the risk of sounding like an asshole, the nurse (or whatever she is) could have just administered CPR, just not quite as robustly as she might have for a younger, healthier person, the old lady would have died anyway, and we wouldn't be talking about this now.

Doing something that really isn't good enough is not the same as doing nothing. Seems to me if you call yourself a nurse, you do something. You don't just call 911 and then tell the operator that the "rules" command you to sit there and do nothing whatsoever while a person dies right in front of you. She (the nurse) obviously isn't too smart, or this would have occurred to her. Better to try (albeit not very hard) and fail to save the life of an old lady than to be singled out, worldwide, as someone who just sits back and watches somebody die. It's on a public record now. I wouldn't want to be her looking for a job as a nurse anytime soon. Nor would I want to be her patient.

Or you could RTFA.  The policy of this independent living center (not medical facility) was medical help was not provided other than calling 911.  She, and her family knew this going in, and were fine with it.  This is a non-story, except for the internet moralists/white knights

I did read it.

It's irrelevant what the family thinks about how all this shakes out. I doubt their opinion is going to matter much if this nurse is dragged before whatever state board licenses her. They don't really have anything to lose here, other than their grandma, and that's a done deal.

And it probably doesn't matter what the "policy" of the center is, either. If the center goes to bat for this nurse against whatever state entity might want to discipline her, I'll be really surprised. I'm guessing if they feel they have to, they'll throw her under the bus and feel no regret whatsoever.

Maybe it won't come to that. Hopefully, it won't.

And apparently it isn't a non-story. It's been all over the place as a story fo ...


It's only a story because the media is making it one.  And the caller, whether a nurse or not, was not employed as a nurse at the facility, as the facility provides no medical care.  This was know and accepted by all parties involved.  I'm not trying to be a dick, there's pleanty of examples of that upthread, but no crime was committed.  The old lady is at peace, the family respected her wishes, and the facility now has a vacancy.  Win-win-win.
 
2013-03-06 07:29:05 PM
You can have a heartbeat and not be breathing. You can't have a non beating heart and be breathing. No cpr on a beating heart.
 
2013-03-06 07:51:38 PM

andychrist420: It's only a story because the media is making it one. And the caller, whether a nurse or not, was not employed as a nurse at the facility, as the facility provides no medical care. This was know and accepted by all parties involved. I'm not trying to be a dick, there's pleanty of examples of that upthread, but no crime was committed. The old lady is at peace, the family respected her wishes, and the facility now has a vacancy. Win-win-win.


Wow, now we've elevated it to "Win!" status.  LMFAO!
 
2013-03-06 07:54:01 PM
What an awesome thread!  I learned a lot.  As soon as I saw nurses arguing, my (mostly controllable) nurse fetish set me all aquiver, but the more I read, the more I realized that most of said arguing was being done by male nurses, and that kind of made me sad and somewhat ashamed.  I have a very quick csb to relate:

Early 90's:  I had rudimentary (at best) training in CPR and just happened to be the first aid "go to" guy at a soft drink factory, where I worked nights.  One morning, about 9 or so, after I'd been home for a while and had a few drinks, somebody furiously pounded on my door, startling the shiat out of me.  I opened the door, and it was an old guy (like 70) hollering something about calling an ambulance.  I didn't understand him, and said I hadn't called for one, and he said, "No, I need you to call for one!  My buddy's down!"  I looked out the door, and sure enough, there was a guy laying in the middle of the street.  I lived in a mobile home park, so there was no traffic, and it was about 2 degrees outside; snow piled up 4'.  Michigan in January.  So I dial 911, tell the ambulance where to come, grab my little CPR kit, and run out to save the day.  I took one look at the guy, and I'm just a layman, but I knew right then and there, that that guy was dead.  When the paramedics arrived, they stripped off his clothes and worked him for 40 minutes to no avail.  Even if they were to revive him, he would have probably died right away again from frostbite.  Point is, that guy was dead, and there was nothing ANYONE was going to do to save him.

/just one picture of an angry nurse in lingerie would have been nice in this thread
 
2013-03-06 08:37:40 PM
This is not about this instance of denial of care. Even if the family wanted it, the protocol was broken and dysfunction was exposed. They are legally obligated to provide care -- it's not about this grandma, it's abut the next one who needs care and is denied it because a nurse violated her and the facility's legal duty to provide state mandated care as stipulated by their license to operate as a healthcare facility.
 
2013-03-06 08:51:34 PM

Melvin Lovecraft: What an awesome thread!  I learned a lot.  As soon as I saw nurses arguing, my (mostly controllable) nurse fetish set me all aquiver, but the more I read, the more I realized that most of said arguing was being done by male nurses, and that kind of made me sad and somewhat ashamed.  I have a very quick csb to relate:

Early 90's:  I had rudimentary (at best) training in CPR and just happened to be the first aid "go to" guy at a soft drink factory, where I worked nights.  One morning, about 9 or so, after I'd been home for a while and had a few drinks, somebody furiously pounded on my door, startling the shiat out of me.  I opened the door, and it was an old guy (like 70) hollering something about calling an ambulance.  I didn't understand him, and said I hadn't called for one, and he said, "No, I need you to call for one!  My buddy's down!"  I looked out the door, and sure enough, there was a guy laying in the middle of the street.  I lived in a mobile home park, so there was no traffic, and it was about 2 degrees outside; snow piled up 4'.  Michigan in January.  So I dial 911, tell the ambulance where to come, grab my little CPR kit, and run out to save the day.  I took one look at the guy, and I'm just a layman, but I knew right then and there, that that guy was dead.  When the paramedics arrived, they stripped off his clothes and worked him for 40 minutes to no avail.  Even if they were to revive him, he would have probably died right away again from frostbite.  Point is, that guy was dead, and there was nothing ANYONE was going to do to save him.

/just one picture of an angry nurse in lingerie would have been nice in this thread


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