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(Bakersfield Californian)   While internet rages over a "nurse" failing to perform CPR at a "nursing home", family of the 87 year old woman is OK with it   (bakersfieldcalifornian.com) divider line 380
    More: Followup, rage, CPR, home, California Attorney General, Kern County, legal recourse, elder abuse, nurses  
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9255 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Mar 2013 at 1:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-06 02:55:56 AM
Did the lady have any estate / savings? Maybe the family's outrage was softenedby a Hawaiian vacation looming on the horizon.

Kinda doubt this is the case, but stranger things have happened...

/Don't really care; not going to dig for an answer.
//Still, I wouldn't put my parent in that facility.
 
2013-03-06 02:56:57 AM
Bumblefark:Look, it would be one thing if the nurse and the 911 operator were having a debate about best medical practices...and the nurse decided to err on the side of humaneness, rather than take a risky and potentially unrewarding, drastic measure for their client.

But, that's not really what the story is about, is it? Tell me you get that...


I get that people want to require medical staff to save lives when they can, but I think that requiring people to perform CPR, which is a pretty risky no-guarantee procedure that inevitably results in injury, for any reason is at best pushing it a bit.  If it was a matter of the woman being on artificial respiration that had come unplugged and the staff nurse refusing to plug it back in, sure, outrage, string 'em up, but this... nah.  A care nurse overriding the 911 dispatcher as regards her own attempt to hail-mary past the grim reaper, I'm not feeling the rage here.

As to the person sounding callous on the phone... medical personnel, when not actually talking to a patient, are  incredibly blunt.  Hospital staff are even worse.  I can't imagine continuing care, where your patient  always dies in your care, makes you any more inclined to be sensitive to the public's wilting-flower delicacy  outside their actual hearing.  This doesn't necessarily make them actually bad people.
 
2013-03-06 02:58:04 AM
Hey whaddaya know, another article showing the actual TRANSCRIPT of the call.
http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/breaking-news/x738926964 /E xcerpts-from-the-Glenwood-911-call

So, speaking as-as I've mentioned-a nonlawyer, nonmedic J .Random Goon, here are facts I can glean.

1.  The patient collapsed in a public area in full view of multiple staff members and multiple other patients, and had a witnessed respiratory arrest during the course of the call.
2.  The caller (herein referred to as "caller", not "nurse", for reasons soon to be explained) promptly called for both 911 support and her boss,  as well as other coworkers within screaming distance.
3.  During the course of the call, the caller identified herself as a "nurse", but without using a proper rank name such as LPN, RN, RNA, etc.  Therefore we cannot determine the caller's licensure status.
4.  During the course of the call, the caller was not aided by ANY other facility employee within sight of the incident, and was directly ordered by her supervisor not to obey Dispatcher commands to start CPR-not for the least of which, no doubt, because of the resulting bone-crushing sights and sounds and their results on the other clients.  Facility policy was clearly not to turn "fell down, passed out, carted away by ambulance, never came back" into "fell down, passed out, nurse mashed her flat, then ambulance came."
5.  The Dispatcher attempted to order the Caller to have ANY passerby-regardless of training in CPR or other basic lifesaving, medical licensure, legal connection to the facility, or otherwise-begin CPR via telephone instruction.

Discuss.
 
2013-03-06 02:59:17 AM

andychrist420: If the bagger is not trained in CPR, he should not do it, and could actually be liable if the person is injured further. Anything else?


that's not true.
 
2013-03-06 02:59:23 AM
I'm sitting here typing this from a Brookedale facility exactly like the one in the news right now and i'm getting a kick....

The majority of you haven't a damn clue what you are talking about, so kindly STFU.

/ALF does not equal medical facility.
 
2013-03-06 02:59:44 AM

Maximer: hardinparamedic:

As far as nurses being like paramedics - that's kind of a complex issue. Different schools of thought, different methodologies of training.

Paramedics specialize in emergency and critical care, especially in the venue of transport, and have to learn to generalize. Nurses generalize in advanced care, and specialize in their respective clinical fields out in practice.

Just wanted to reinforce this.  RN here.  Nurses (in general) are more experienced in "longer" term care than nurses.  Unless the RN is working in an ED or on a medivac I would not think their emergency medicine care is that much better than a paramedic's.  Nurses and paramedics, for the most part, serve different spectrums of the medical world.  They each have their place and are specialized for their specific job.

As for the original topic, I'm still trying to absorb all the information before making a decision.  Although, as a nurse, I would find it difficult to just refuse treatment.  Providing medical care or treatment is just second nature to a lot of people in the medical professions.  You kinda go on "autopilot" in those emergency situations.  So, for some reason, I feel like there's some disconnect in the story or something not being reported.  It just isn't adding up.


I would tend to agree.  This is more of an ethical dilemma than a legal one.  Don't misread, there may very well be legal action taken against this individual.
 
2013-03-06 02:59:54 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: Bigdogdaddy: The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

Except that you are WRONG.

You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am.

If you aren't aware that certain nurses in several states are legally allowed to make this determination, then I dont know what to tell you...except that in NO state is a medic legally able to do so.

Also, from what I understand is that if I am not trained to preform CPR correctly I am not to do so.  It is more than pounding on a chest.  Of course, I'm from a "flyover" state and it varies from state to state.

Correct.  If you dont know how to do it...at the least its gonna be ineffective, and at the worst, can actually make a bad situation even worse.

Also, I would suggest hardinparamedic stops trying to speak about the state board of nursing like he actually has authority to do so, or that he even knows wtf their rules are...considering that he isn't even a nurse.


Thank you. I know that's the way it used to be when I took CPR years ago (although my certification expired long ago).  Things change over the years.
 
2013-03-06 03:00:14 AM

log_jammin: cretinbob: Our associate who was involved was serving in the capacity of a Resident Services Director, not as a nurse.

you do understand someone can be a licensed nurse yet "serve in the capacity of" another function don't you?


You do know that since the facility was not a licensed medical facility it doesn't matter, right? A nurse can only practice under a physicians license.

log_jammin: citation that 911 dispatchers are trained to provide instructions on how to perform CPR during emergencies? cause that's a pretty major part of their job. Or are you claiming that the 911 operator was telling to woman to do something illegal by asking her to perform 911?


Oh god yes. Around here they have to be EMTs, firefighters or police officers as well. Yes, CPR intructions are part of pre-arrivals.
 
2013-03-06 03:01:05 AM

Nuclear Pancake: I'm sitting here typing this from a Brookedale facility exactly like the one in the news right now and i'm getting a kick....

The majority of you haven't a damn clue what you are talking about, so kindly STFU.

/ALF does not equal medical facility.


In other words: I am too lazy to contribute, and you are all doo doo heads.
 
2013-03-06 03:01:11 AM

Bigdogdaddy: If someone was trapped in a burning car and I would put my life in danger should I be required to drag them out?


I would say you have a legal as well as a moral obligation to do more than just watch.
 
2013-03-06 03:02:53 AM

Ishidan: Hey whaddaya know, another article showing the actual TRANSCRIPT of the call.
http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/breaking-news/x738926964 /E xcerpts-from-the-Glenwood-911-call

So, speaking as-as I've mentioned-a nonlawyer, nonmedic J .Random Goon, here are facts I can glean.

1.  The patient collapsed in a public area in full view of multiple staff members and multiple other patients, and had a witnessed respiratory arrest during the course of the call.
2.  The caller (herein referred to as "caller", not "nurse", for reasons soon to be explained) promptly called for both 911 support and her boss,  as well as other coworkers within screaming distance.
3.  During the course of the call, the caller identified herself as a "nurse", but without using a proper rank name such as LPN, RN, RNA, etc.  Therefore we cannot determine the caller's licensure status.
4.  During the course of the call, the caller was not aided by ANY other facility employee within sight of the incident, and was directly ordered by her supervisor not to obey Dispatcher commands to start CPR-not for the least of which, no doubt, because of the resulting bone-crushing sights and sounds and their results on the other clients.  Facility policy was clearly not to turn "fell down, passed out, carted away by ambulance, never came back" into "fell down, passed out, nurse mashed her flat, then ambulance came."
5.  The Dispatcher attempted to order the Caller to have ANY passerby-regardless of training in CPR or other basic lifesaving, medical licensure, legal connection to the facility, or otherwise-begin CPR via telephone instruction.

Discuss.


I'm going to refer back to my original opinion in the first thread about this.

The dispatcher was a spaz.
 
2013-03-06 03:03:48 AM

cretinbob: You do know that since the facility was not a licensed medical facility it doesn't matter, right? A nurse can only practice under a physicians license.


so you're saying it was illeagl for her to perform CPR??? really???

cretinbob: Oh god yes.


so why isn't the dispatcher getting fired for her illegal conduct? Oh that's right. because she was doing exactly what she was supposed to do.
 
2013-03-06 03:03:48 AM

log_jammin: andychrist420: If the bagger is not trained in CPR, he should not do it, and could actually be liable if the person is injured further. Anything else?

that's not true.


I imagine it varies by state.  I know in my state that good samaritan (however you spell that) protections only apply if you have BAT or other actual current CPR certification.  If you just randomly start trying to administer without a cert you can in fact be held liable in civil court for the resulting injuries.

Albeit, samaritan immunity does cover non-CPR aid like moving people out of traffic and so on.
 
2013-03-06 03:05:11 AM

log_jammin: Bigdogdaddy: If someone was trapped in a burning car and I would put my life in danger should I be required to drag them out?

I would say you have a legal as well as a moral obligation to do more than just watch.


OK, I said I was done.  I work for a company and someone gets hurt.  We have people trained to do first aid, CPR and whatever they can do to help somone here until medical professionals arrive.  I am told NOT to assist because I am not properly trained in even cleaning up the contaminated area. They do not want untrained personnel doing these things. Should I be arrested if I do what I am told by the company?
 
2013-03-06 03:05:20 AM
The more you eat the more you fart:

Also, I would suggest hardinparamedic stops trying to speak about the state board of nursing like he actually has authority to do so, or that he even knows wtf their rules are...considering that he isn't even a nurse.

One of the most annoying aspects of the medical profession is that every profession (i.e. doctor, RN, LPN, CNA, PA, EMT, Paramedic, etc.) think they know better or know more than every other profession in the field.  They also all seem to know how to do each other's jobs.

The medical profession is a place of huge egos unfortunately.  It's one of the major drawbacks to me.
 
2013-03-06 03:05:22 AM

hardinparamedic: Unless that woman had a valid, signed DNR, or had a Doctor at her side telling her not to start CPR, that does not matter. She had a legal duty, if employed as a nurse for that facility, to act in the standard of care with basic competency, per the California Board of Nursing.

Facility policies do not trump State Nursing laws.


True.  Had just this exact thing happen Monday.  100yo, coded him for 3 hours, broke every rib.  Made it ICU to code 2 more times before finally passing.  Life would have sucked if they live r/t rib fractures, pain, brain anoxia.  Difference was that family insisted on all measures to make the pt live even if they were miserable doing it.
 
2013-03-06 03:06:40 AM
Nuclear Pancake:
/ALF does not equal medical facility.
...must...not...make...80s...tv...joke...
 
2013-03-06 03:07:59 AM

hardinparamedic: AverageAmericanGuy: 'Contributed' is a very weasely word here.

How so? If this woman was a nurse, her training should have lead her to be able to identify the fact that this woman needed assistance, and her duty to act (if she's receiving a paycheck as a nurse) should have prompted her to render basic emergency aid until the arrival of more trained personnel. Even if this meant assisting respiration through mouth to mouth.

Her failure to act was a direct contributory factor here as a licensed nurse.

tlchwi02: sheesh, I didn't know we had the king o' nurses on fark

How dare I demand high standards out of people who's jobs demand they care for people.

No. I know the shenanigans and horrific treatment that nursing home patients, and many assisted living residents, receive. That's why it's not a stretch to see this person letting someone die.

tlchwi02: who gives a crap

Please never enter healthcare. Never touch a living, breathing creature with that attitude.


It is you that should Not have entered Healthcare in the first place if this is your attitude. Your callous unprofessionalism when representing your self as an EMS first responder is disgusting at best. Lashing out at posters on a public form is certainly against union policies here, which is why I am glad you do not work for any EMS crew in our health region.

Not only that, but you make some serious assumptions, and in your desire to rely on heuristics, you shamelessly flame, and call for the firing of a woman who has not officially been recognized as a nurse with any standing license in any of the articles, including the ones you linked.

Perhaps before you decide to become so enflamed about an issue that you cannot truly pass first hand judgement on, you should consider respecting the feelings of the family above your desire to seek a reason to pass sanctimonious judgement on others.

You should consider this issue closed, and find better issues to focus on, considering you are also not investigating, or are part of any investigative body that is looking in to the woman's legal status to provide CPR or not, nor will you ever be.
 
2013-03-06 03:08:01 AM

Ishidan: Nuclear Pancake:
/ALF does not equal medical facility.
...must...not...make...80s...tv...joke...


HA!
 
2013-03-06 03:08:35 AM

hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am.

If you aren't aware that certain nurses in several states are legally allowed to make this determination, then I dont know what to tell you...except that in NO state is a medic legally able to do so.

What level of medical training is that which allows you to determine that, without performing an assessment or any interventions, that death in the field is certain and resuscitation is futile. Or to withhold resuscitation measures without a DNR or physicians order, or specific standing, protocol-based criteria, despite the fact doing so can be seen as practicing medicine?

Because, I can show you my criteria. Tennessee State Protocol 601 - Withholding Life Support/Terminating Resusctiation in the Field.


Quote from MY state board of nursing:

"

In the event of an unwitnessed patient or resident cardiac arrest, the nurse is expected to immediately conduct a sequential assessment of the patient or resident and to initiate CPR without delay unless there is a valid DNR order or  allof the following clinical signs are present:

1. No response when the patient or resident is tapped on the shoulder and asked, "Are you all right?"

2.  No evidence of active respiration or respiratory effort after observation for at least 30 seconds.

3.  No pulse as determined by palpation of the carotid or auscultation of the apical pulse for not less than 30 seconds.

4.  Dilated bilateral pupils that are unresponsive to bright light.

The assessment above must be performed by appropriately licensed nursing personnel."

Also:

"The Board of Nursing has no "laundry list" of tasks/skills a nurse can perform. Such lists tend to limit practice. Scope of practice is a fluid concept. It changes as knowledge and technology expand. Nurses must possess the knowledge, skill, and ability to perform their duties, therefore, scope of practice comes down to the competency of the individual nurse. "

translation:  the state board in my state give BROAD leeway to its nurses, and leaves most decisions up to the individual nurse;  as long as they have a medically-justified reason for their actions, they are in the clear.
 
2013-03-06 03:09:50 AM

log_jammin: BarkingUnicorn: The place was not a nursing home, but an unregulated "independent living center."

andychrist420: There's a difference between "nursing home" and "independent living facility" She was at the latter, and they generally don't provide medical care.

you guys think you're making some sort of point by saying this, but it is completely irrelevant.

If a bagger at a grocery store called 911 because a customer was dieing then refused to perform CPR when asked by the 911 operator because it was against company policy, no one would be saying "well he wasn't at a nursing home so the customer should just expect to die".


The point is that a nursing home would have a duty to render medical services while a grocery store would not.  Another point is that a grocery store might employ a nurse as a bagger, in which case the employee has no nurse's duty to a customer.
 
2013-03-06 03:10:27 AM

BarkingUnicorn: log_jammin: cretinbob: She's not a nurse. She had no duty to act.

morally she did.

Your morals do not create my duties. If your morals say abortion is murder, I have no duty to carry a fetus to term.

Get it?


THIS. x 100,000,000.

Read this and understand it.
 
2013-03-06 03:10:50 AM

qitty: I did not perform CPR and he had a DNR.


Yes, these are exactly the same situation.
 
2013-03-06 03:13:11 AM

CaitoStreet: Lashing out at posters on a public form is certainly against union policies here, which is why I am glad you do not work for any EMS crew in our health region.


Lulz.
 
2013-03-06 03:14:28 AM
Derp thick..... cannot... see or hear do to thick derp........

Woman should have had DNR. Seems like this was her wish as well as her families wish. Leave it alone. I'm sure lawyers will make much cash either way. What is important? Quality of life, or keeping a 78 yo woman alive (or what passes in a hospital) for a nominal amount of time so the f*cking health care mega corporations can squeeze a few more pennies out of her.
If I'm in that position, not only do I prefer no cpr, .357 to brainstem is my choice.
Keep arguing, derp feeds the fark.
 
2013-03-06 03:14:34 AM

Jim_Callahan: I imagine it varies by state.


you're right. it's not as cut and dried as I thought.
 
2013-03-06 03:15:51 AM

thorthor: Woman should have had DNR.


But didn't.
 
2013-03-06 03:17:45 AM

Bigdogdaddy: OK, I said I was done. I work for a company and someone gets hurt. We have people trained to do first aid, CPR and whatever they can do to help somone here until medical professionals arrive. I am told NOT to assist because I am not properly trained in even cleaning up the contaminated area. They do not want untrained personnel doing these things. Should I be arrested if I do what I am told by the company?


that's not even remotely comparable to this situation.

1. cleaning up contamination when you're not trained is not the same as refusing to perform CPR under instruction of a person trained to tell you how to perform CPR.

2. who said anything about arrest?
 
2013-03-06 03:19:16 AM

thorthor: Seems like this was her wish



That sounds like a binding contract to me.
 
2013-03-06 03:20:40 AM

BarkingUnicorn: The point is that a nursing home would have a duty to render medical services while a grocery store would not. Another point is that a grocery store might employ a nurse as a bagger, in which case the employee has no nurse's duty to a customer.


so I'll add you to the "If I'm not legally obligated then I can't be bothered" camp.
 
2013-03-06 03:21:52 AM
if you & your family has not had to provide 24hr at home care for an elderly person unable to do for themselves you should STFU about it. your income is gone, your sleep is minimal, you have to provide care that should be given by several attendants multiple times per day. upkeep of hygiene, using the toilet, you name it, you get to do it. you still have to keep up with your bills & household chores while taking care of their bills, legal needs, taxes, banking etcetera.

if you're really lucky your relative will be mentally ill so you not only have the repetition of things every day, you'll also enjoy sarcasm, insult and all sorts of verbal abuse along with whatever farked up things that go along with their instability.

people that think it's terrible to put a loved one into a assisted center should also realize how demanding it is to get a person in a wheelchair out to the car for frequent doctors visits. it's not easy and it eats up the day. and when you get home you still have to fix meals and get chores done.

not everyone is cut out to be a caregiver to begin with. most people that work with ill people do so because it's a calling. it takes a lot of patience, training and more sympathy/empathy than most people have. and those people get to go home at the end of their shift.

dealing with someone who is a type A personality that is bitter because they've lost their independence is demanding. they lash out at those taking care of them because there is no one else for them to vent at. not all old people are nice and sweet. some are miserable and horrible: if they were dsyfunctional and mentally unstable when they were young they are even worse later.
 
2013-03-06 03:22:24 AM

log_jammin: Bigdogdaddy: If someone was trapped in a burning car and I would put my life in danger should I be required to drag them out?

I would say you have a legal as well as a moral obligation to do more than just watch.


that's not true.

/wee, this is fun
//you might have an obligation to try to get help, but none to put your own life in danger.
///thanks for playing
 
2013-03-06 03:22:41 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: You're a medic. Not a nurse. You do not have the level of medical training that I do. And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective. You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination. I am.


images.encyclopediadramatica.se

Yes I can, and I have done so many times. I still have to consult with a physician, just like you do, but I can decide myself if the 95 year old demetia patient who has been down for 15 minutes without CPR (and had the smoothest asystole I've ever seen) needs to have a resucitation attempt or not.
And yes, I've successfully resuscitated a 91 year old because they didn't have a DNR, knowing that they'd die within a few hours anyway.
I've been with hundreds of people at their deaths. That's why I'm not afraid and can respect another persons wishes.


No log_jammin. She doesn't have a legal duty to act, nurse or not. She was stupid to say she is a nurse either way. I'm going with overzealous staffer and she's not really a nurse, but it made her feel important to say that she was. The second part doesn't even make sense. The dispatcher attempted to get the caller to do CPR. That's all they have to do. I did find a link to the call but I haven't listened yet.


lyanna96: True. Had just this exact thing happen Monday. 100yo, coded him for 3 hours, broke every rib. Made it ICU to code 2 more times before finally passing. Life would have sucked if they live r/t rib fractures, pain, brain anoxia. Difference was that family insisted on all measures to make the pt live even if they were miserable doing it.


That's the conversation that needs to come out of this. Now the family has a huge bill for what was a futile effort to begin with, but hey, profits right?
 
2013-03-06 03:23:46 AM
And let me make the distinction that an 87 year old is not the same as a 37 year old or 67 year old.....
 
2013-03-06 03:23:53 AM

hardinparamedic: me texan: Putting someone in the rescue position is not performing CPR.

Assisting for ineffective respirations, and identifying agonal breathing is not placing someone in the rescue position.

FirstNationalBastard: Of course they're happy.

Odds are, Grandma was a near-vegetable that had drained them both emotionally and financially to the brink of ruin because her body was just too stubborn to die even though the mind had checked out long ago. But, unlike if a beloved family pet's quality of life had degraded to almost nothing, no one could take Grandma to the Doctor and give her a nice sleepytime shot to put her out of her misery, because with humans, life is all about quantity, not quality.

Unless that woman had a valid, signed DNR, or had a Doctor at her side telling her not to start CPR, that does not matter. She had a legal duty, if employed as a nurse for that facility, to act in the standard of care with basic competency, per the California Board of Nursing.

Facility policies do not trump State Nursing laws.


Well the odd part is in calling 911.  If she's DNR, there's no calling 911, right?
 
2013-03-06 03:23:57 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: In the event of an unwitnessed patient or resident cardiac arrest, the nurse is expected to immediately conduct a sequential assessment of the patient or resident and to initiate CPR without delay unless there is a valid DNR order or allof the following clinical signs are present:


you do realize that says the nurse must perform CPR unless there is a DNR or the patient is dead, don't you?
 
2013-03-06 03:26:42 AM

hardinparamedic: ladyfortuna: Where's Bronymedic, he should be in this discussion..

here. :P


Ah.  Withdrawal symptoms.
 
2013-03-06 03:26:58 AM

andychrist420: that's not true.

/wee, this is fun
//you might have an obligation to try to get help, but none to put your own life in danger.
///thanks for playing


I was under the impression that getting help is more than standing there and watching. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
2013-03-06 03:27:44 AM
I have a friend who works in a nursing home.  She told me that DNRs are great, and it really doesn't matter if they have a DNR or not when it comes to major events.  She told me that basically, at some point, everyone in the nursing home (not all at once) is considered 'a slow walk'.  Meaning, that person or the family may want every possible step taken to extend that old person's life just a little bit longer, but the nursing staff doesn't have an unlimited amount of medical supplies, so if someone is bad health to begin with, and not a DNR, and something like a heart attack hits, there is no rushing to their room.  It's going to be a slow stride to the room, hoping that the patient has died before the nursing staff has gotten there.  They'd rather use medical supplies on those who have a life expectancy longer than just a couple of days.

I have only one professional experience dealing with the elderly and their end of life care.  I was working Emergency Response for a home health service.  I worked in a small call center on weekend nights.  Basically, I was the only one there because there really wasn't the phone traffic on Friday and Saturday night between midnight and 5am (and being the only one there, after watching the sexual harassment video, I called my boss to let her know and followed it up with "Just who the hell could I possibly sexually harass?").  Most annoying call was a woman who was in tears.  Her great grandmother had died and was calling to cancel the service.  She blamed us for not doing enough to save her great grandmother.  I pulled up the file in the system to make note that the client had died.  As I was making notes she kept biatching at me that my company failed to keep her great grandmother alive.  I asked her: "Your great grandmother was 102 years old and has a long list of medical problems, I'm not sure anyone could have kept her alive any longer."  Then I asked her if she should be some what relieved that her great grandmother was no longer in any form of pain.  She called me a heartless bastard who was an employee of a heartless corporation.  I told my boss that.  She said "I don't care.  The contract ended because the client died and the client's family hasn't gotten to the acceptance stage of acceptance.  You didn't cause that contract to expire and it's going to be a few decades before that woman will qualify for our services, long enough for no one to care about what you asked her."
 
2013-03-06 03:28:30 AM
The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

"And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

Except that you are WRONG.

You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am".


WRONG!!!!

A lowly (Since that's the way you feel) Paramedic and a Nurse work under a Doctors supervision.

Only a Doctor can say when to stop efforts.
 
2013-03-06 03:29:21 AM

Maximer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Also, I would suggest hardinparamedic stops trying to speak about the state board of nursing like he actually has authority to do so, or that he even knows wtf their rules are...considering that he isn't even a nurse.

One of the most annoying aspects of the medical profession is that every profession (i.e. doctor, RN, LPN, CNA, PA, EMT, Paramedic, etc.) think they know better or know more than every other profession in the field.  They also all seem to know how to do each other's jobs.

The medical profession is a place of huge egos unfortunately.  It's one of the major drawbacks to me.


Same for me.  However, I don't stand around at the scene of auto accidents and tell the EMT's and paramedics what to do (even though I very well COULD being as I "out-rank" them according to state law as I am a level II-A trauma nurse)...so having some random "medic" on the internet who went to school at some vocational or technical college for 12 months tell me what the laws are that govern MY profession is nothing short of laughable.  Translation:  if I wanted to be a dick...if I rolled up on to hardinparamedic's accident scene, even if I was in TN where he is, and said "You WILL do this..." etc he would be legally required to follow MY order...as TN would respect my trauma nurse status, and he would be held legally responsible for disobeying MY order as a medical professional..NOT the other way around.

I have a master's plus 30 in my field.  No medic will EVER be able to "order" me to do anything of a medical nature.  Period.

ALL that being said...working with dumbasses with huge egos, or the people who play "heroic white knight" when a situation doesnt call for it is HIGHLY annoying.

the woman died of a stroke.  end of story.  All the CPR by all the white knights in the world wouldnt have saved her.  She was dead when she hit the ground..her respiratory center in her brain stem just hadn't gotten the message yet.
 
2013-03-06 03:29:45 AM

Relatively Obscure: thorthor: Woman should have had DNR.

But didn't.


It's just that simple.  We wouldn't even be discussing this if she had a DNR order on file.  Instead, we have a situation where a 911 dispatcher was doing everything they could to attempt to help save a person's life with useless drones on the other end of the phone simply quoting policy.  The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what the caller was with regard to profession, what shocks people is their callous indifference to the situation.  I could side with the staff if they were offering a medically sound rebuttal during the conversation, but they didn't.  They didn't care about anything but policy.  These are people who should be working with inanimate objects, which, I suppose, is what they ended up with.
 
2013-03-06 03:30:01 AM

cretinbob: No log_jammin. She doesn't have a legal duty to act, nurse or not.


you said a nurse can only practice under a physician license and the only reason I can see you making that point is if you were trying to say she couldn't legally preform CPR since she wasn't under a physicians license at the time. is that what you were trying to say? if not please explain why you brought that up.
 
2013-03-06 03:30:22 AM

Relatively Obscure: thorthor: Woman should have had DNR.

But didn't.


So punish her negligence and disregard her family so someone can be sued and possibly lose her job. Yep that's better. Did you even read my entire comment? Are you a farking ambulance chaser? Have you ever sat with a terminally ill or extremely elderly and frail human who states repeatedly "I just want to die/end the pain?" Let me know if you have and you still think you are right in defending a f*cking piece of paper over the individuals or families wishes.
This godamn belief that all life is sacred and must be saved, circumstances aside, is frankly the opinion of a mental deficiant.
 
2013-03-06 03:32:44 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: so having some random "medic" on the internet who went to school at some vocational or technical college for 12 months tell me what the laws are that govern MY profession is nothing short of laughable.


oh wow!

please. quit your job immediately. you don't belong there.
 
2013-03-06 03:33:17 AM
Yes I can, and I have done so many times. I still have to consult with a physician, just like you do,


Are you stupid or do you just not read well?

I do NOT have to consult with a physician to make that determination.  You are incorrect, and lack appropriate knowledge to give opinion on my job.  Nice try though.
 
2013-03-06 03:34:18 AM
I'm not surprised that this happened in Bakersfield.
 
2013-03-06 03:35:14 AM
The more you eat the more you fart:

Same for me.  However, I don't stand around at the scene of auto accidents and tell the EMT's and paramedics what to do (even though I very well COULD being as I "out-rank" them according to state law as I am a level II-A trauma nurse)...so having some random "medic" on the internet who went to school at some vocational or technical college for 12 months tell me what the laws are that govern MY profession is nothing short of laughable.  Translation:  if I wanted to be a dick...if I rolled up on to hardinparamedic's accident scene, even if I was in TN where he is, and said "You WILL do this..." etc he would be legally required to follow MY order...as TN would respect my trauma nurse status, and he would be held legally responsible for disobeying MY order as a medical professional..NOT the other way around.

I have a master's plus 30 in my field.  No medic will EVER be able to "order" me to do anything of a medical nature.  Period.

ALL that being said...working with dumbasses with huge egos, or the people who play "heroic white knight" when a situation doesnt call for it is HIGHLY annoying.

the woman died of a stroke.  end of story.  All the CPR by all the white knights in the world wouldnt have saved her.  She was dead when she hit the ground..her respiratory center in her brain stem just hadn't gotten the message yet.


Yep, pretty much this.
 
2013-03-06 03:35:27 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: Are you stupid or do you just not read well?


he obviously must be one of those people with a huge ego. unlike you of course. where does that lowly peon get off disagreeing with a NURSE of all people! he should know his place.
 
2013-03-06 03:35:46 AM

CBFLATLINE: The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: The more you eat the more you fart: REALLY?!

The family's response to the media "outrage"....

"And, as someone who has saved "hundreds of lives", you should know that the only legally and ethically acceptable reasons to withhold lifesaving intervention from a patient is if they have a signed DNR order, or you have a physician telling you to.

Except that you are WRONG.

You're a medic.  Not a nurse.  You do not have the level of medical training that I do.  And legally, I am able to determine whether or not lifesaving measures should be taken or not...or whether or not they would be effective.  You, as a medic, are not licensed to make this determination.  I am".

WRONG!!!!

A lowly (Since that's the way you feel) Paramedic and a Nurse work under a Doctors supervision.

Only a Doctor can say when to stop efforts.


INCORRECT.

DAMN there are some ignorant farkers on here...
 
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