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(Yahoo)   Rand Paul : "Drones against Americans in the US?" Holder: "Nah.... unless maybe Pearl Harbor or 9/11." Paul: *POUTRAGE*   (news.yahoo.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, obama, Pearl Harbor, United States, Americans, Office of Legal Counsel, terrorist threats, targeted killings, lethal force  
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2809 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Mar 2013 at 7:49 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-05 05:58:21 PM  
l1.yimg.com

Picture taken from my iPhone
 
2013-03-05 06:03:13 PM  
On 9/11 President Bush scrambled fighter jets to intercept flight 93 on route to DC. Had they actually done so, does anyone think they would have asked if any of the hijackers were American before blowing it out of the sky? Does anyone honestly think they should have to?
 
2013-03-05 06:04:46 PM  
Maybe if these jackasses in DC hadn't opened Pandora's box with the War on Drugs, Rand would have an argument.
 
2013-03-05 06:07:35 PM  
Paul had asked the Obama administration on Feb. 20 whether the president "has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil and without trial." On Tuesday, he denounced Holder's response as "frightening" and "an affront to the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans."

and the GOP is upset about this now because....?  it's not like anyone on the Republican side has actually given a damn about due process since we started the war on drugs.  why biatch about it now?
 
2013-03-05 06:11:12 PM  
I see that this thread shall be one of those "Yeah it sucks but lets biatch about the right anyways"
 
2013-03-05 06:17:00 PM  
I have never met an attorney or politician that deals in absolutes, once you do, there's nowhere to go from there.
 
2013-03-05 06:21:07 PM  
I want action figures on a continuous loop of waiting, being x-rayed, stripped, shuffled about and impatient questioning in a pretend drone airport.  Only then will I accept drone strikes on Americans.  Oh, and I want a movie where the drone is chasing a good guy and it fires at him through a building but he's wily and escapes it then he tricks two drones into crashing into one another and he looks back from his motorcycle even though he usually doesn't look at explosions and you can see in his eyes that he knows it's time for a calmer next scene where he plots things out while the real bad guys lament their luck.  And I want cops to be able to fire on people just for committing certain crimes.  Like fishing around in a crinkly bag for the last flaming hot funyun somewhere eating is prohibited except for the portion of the population that manages to eat a single 25¢ bag of funyuns for 45 minutes.
 
2013-03-05 06:33:26 PM  
Something, stopped clock, something
 
2013-03-05 06:41:06 PM  
I have no probs with Obama killing those who are in active treason against the United States.

I doubt that Obama will use these drones to kill on our own soil. It would be the end of his political career. I'm not saying that it wont happen; I am saying that you are too damn paranoid. Just because it can happen does not mean that it will not happen.

Still, if I ever saw one of those drones over my house, I, too, would probably shoot it down.
 
2013-03-05 07:01:56 PM  
I am an Obama supporter, but this is a bad, bad path to go down.
 
2013-03-05 07:05:31 PM  

bronyaur1: I am an Obama supporter, but this is a bad, bad path to go down.


if it helps any, this is a bipartisan effort.  the President couldn't stop this even if he wanted too - the machinery of our government has decided that this should happen so, it's going to happen.  maybe not today, maybe not this administration...but eventually we're going to get a 'domestic terrorist group' that gets themselves declared public enemy #1 and blown all to hell and gone on live TV.  procedure be damned, we'll splatter their guts on live broadcast and feel damn good about shredding the bill of rights in the process.
 
2013-03-05 07:24:30 PM  
You mean Rand "Friends of Hamas" Paul?
 
2013-03-05 07:31:57 PM  

Weaver95: bronyaur1: I am an Obama supporter, but this is a bad, bad path to go down.

if it helps any, this is a bipartisan effort.  the President couldn't stop this even if he wanted too - the machinery of our government has decided that this should happen so, it's going to happen.  maybe not today, maybe not this administration...but eventually we're going to get a 'domestic terrorist group' that gets themselves declared public enemy #1 and blown all to hell and gone on live TV.  procedure be damned, we'll splatter their guts on live broadcast and feel damn good about shredding the bill of rights in the process.


That's a bunch of crap.  Obama's the goddamned Commander in Chief.  Every single drone is ultimately under his command.  He can do whatever he wants.
 
2013-03-05 07:31:59 PM  
What's interest about this drone thing is how the outrage here has absolutely nothing to do with drones. It's all about the fact that what we call a war isn't really a war. And we can't admit and don't want to deal with it.

The reality is that if an invading army had actually established a beachhead on U.S. soil, no American on the planet would have a problem bombing that place and killing Americans who were collaborating with the invader. The reason we all feel outrage over the drone program is that we know what we're doing now isn't actually war. So we want all the leeway to do what we want during a war, but none of the downside that comes with being in an actual war.
 
2013-03-05 07:33:10 PM  
Of the many, many things that make me embarassed to say I'm from Kentucky, the fact that I'm represented in the Senate by this farktard is very near the top.

/him and turtle boy
//please run, ashley
 
2013-03-05 07:38:15 PM  

cman: I see that this thread shall be one of those "Yeah it sucks but lets biatch about the right anyways"


I happen to think both sides are wrong about Drones, killing Americans all mamby pamby and the War on Drugs.
 
2013-03-05 07:44:53 PM  

BravadoGT: Weaver95: bronyaur1: I am an Obama supporter, but this is a bad, bad path to go down.

if it helps any, this is a bipartisan effort.  the President couldn't stop this even if he wanted too - the machinery of our government has decided that this should happen so, it's going to happen.  maybe not today, maybe not this administration...but eventually we're going to get a 'domestic terrorist group' that gets themselves declared public enemy #1 and blown all to hell and gone on live TV.  procedure be damned, we'll splatter their guts on live broadcast and feel damn good about shredding the bill of rights in the process.

That's a bunch of crap.  Obama's the goddamned Commander in Chief.  Every single drone is ultimately under his command.  He can do whatever he wants.


I don't think so.  I mean that's a nice idea...that you can run things the way you want.  But lets face it - a lot of decisions get made on daily basis that the President either isn't made aware of or cannot easily shut down or stop without facing a severe backlash.  for all practical purposes our society is becoming more fearful, more paranoid and more authoritarian...and there is nothing we can do about it.  we've got some serious inertia built up behind us and its pushing us down a dangerous path.
 
2013-03-05 07:51:48 PM  
I thought the U.S. Civil war solved the "Can we kill Americans that take up arms against us?" dilemma.
 
2013-03-05 07:54:10 PM  

nmrsnr: On 9/11 President Bush scrambled fighter jets to intercept flight 93 on route to DC. Had they actually done so, does anyone think they would have asked if any of the hijackers were American before blowing it out of the sky? Does anyone honestly think they should have to?


Actually, with regard to at least one of the flights, it, uh, was going to get *rammed* out of the sky. They hadn't had time to load weapons onto the jets, if I remember right (back then, they didn't have any ready-to-go-intercept), so the two pilots were basically limited to "Well, maybe I can eject at the last second".

I can try to find the article about this, I seem to recall it being an interview with one of the pilots.
 
2013-03-05 07:56:02 PM  
Democrats need to realize that they will not have the Presidency forever. You want the next Republican POTUS to have this unconstitutional power? STOP THIS SHIAT, NOW!!!!
 
2013-03-05 07:56:46 PM  
So keep that in mind when you're building your little citadel in Idaho...
 
2013-03-05 07:58:18 PM  

cman: I have no probs with Obama killing those who are in active treason against the United States.

I doubt that Obama will use these drones to kill on our own soil. It would be the end of his political career. I'm not saying that it wont happen; I am saying that you are too damn paranoid. Just because it can happen does not mean that it will not happen.

Still, if I ever saw one of those drones over my house, I, too, would probably shoot it down.


Someone translate this nonsense.
 
2013-03-05 07:59:10 PM  
I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.
 
2013-03-05 08:00:34 PM  

cman: I see that this thread shall be one of those "Yeah it sucks but lets biatch about the right anyways"


IS there any other?
 
2013-03-05 08:00:40 PM  

Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.


The due process clause of the constitution is not limited to citizens. Should this standard apply to everyone the US kills in wartime?
 
2013-03-05 08:04:31 PM  

cman: I have no probs with Obama killing those who are in active treason against the United States.

I doubt that Obama will use these drones to kill on our own soil. It would be the end of his political career. I'm not saying that it wont happen; I am saying that you are too damn paranoid. Just because it can happen does not mean that it will not happen.

Still, if I ever saw one of those drones over my house, I, too, would probably shoot it down.


You don't think that shooting down a drone, of all places, at your house, would bring a response? Say, a SWAT team?
 
2013-03-05 08:05:37 PM  

cman: I have no probs with Obama killing those who are in active treason against the United States.


The constitution has something to say about treason.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
 
2013-03-05 08:05:52 PM  

Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.


So I repeat my question: on 9/11, would it have not been okay to shoot down the planes because there were Americans on board, or if the hijackers had been US citizens?
 
2013-03-05 08:06:23 PM  

Weaver95: Paul had asked the Obama administration on Feb. 20 whether the president "has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil and without trial." On Tuesday, he denounced Holder's response as "frightening" and "an affront to the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans."

and the GOP is upset about this now because....?  it's not like anyone on the Republican side has actually given a damn about due process since we started the war on drugs.  why biatch about it now?


I keep saying this: ANYTHING that makes them face the fact that human rights are an actual thing that must be recognized and respected can't be bad.
 
2013-03-05 08:07:23 PM  
Meanwhile a corporation just dumped unidentified chemicals into your underground water source in order to FRACK out the oil and gas underneath.

/Killing Usians without due process every time its highly profitable
 
2013-03-05 08:08:27 PM  

Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.


Yup.
 
2013-03-05 08:09:35 PM  

nmrsnr: Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.

So I repeat my question: on 9/11, would it have not been okay to shoot down the planes because there were Americans on board, or if the hijackers had been US citizens?


This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.
 
2013-03-05 08:09:38 PM  

MFAWG: Weaver95: Paul had asked the Obama administration on Feb. 20 whether the president "has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil and without trial." On Tuesday, he denounced Holder's response as "frightening" and "an affront to the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans."

and the GOP is upset about this now because....?  it's not like anyone on the Republican side has actually given a damn about due process since we started the war on drugs.  why biatch about it now?

I keep saying this: ANYTHING that makes them face the fact that human rights are an actual thing that must be recognized and respected can't be bad.


but the GOP doesn't care about our rights.  if Romney was in the white house, this would still go forward.  it's just who and what we are now.  this is our society.  WE WANTED THIS!  And its going to go forward.
 
2013-03-05 08:09:59 PM  
Think of the lives that could have been saved if we'd targeted certain Americans during the Pearl Harbor attack.
 
2013-03-05 08:10:37 PM  

jigger: nmrsnr: Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.

So I repeat my question: on 9/11, would it have not been okay to shoot down the planes because there were Americans on board, or if the hijackers had been US citizens?

This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.


What's the difference?
 
2013-03-05 08:11:34 PM  

bronyaur1: I am an Obama supporter, but this is a bad, bad path to go down.


^^

This IS scary, and pretending it's not just cause Hydra-Budha McAtlasShrugged says it is a bad way to analyze issues.  "Oh, I promise only to violate the constitution for GOOD reasons, you can trust me!" is not a legal argument our government should be making.
 
2013-03-05 08:11:37 PM  

Evil High Priest: Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.

Yup.


Westboro Baptist Church. Huh? Just for giggles.
 
2013-03-05 08:12:46 PM  

DamnYankees: jigger: nmrsnr: Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.

So I repeat my question: on 9/11, would it have not been okay to shoot down the planes because there were Americans on board, or if the hijackers had been US citizens?

This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.

What's the difference?


If a cop sees you about to kill someone and shoots you dead, is that the same as them thinking that you're a threat, sometime in the future, staking out your house and killing you with a sniper?
 
2013-03-05 08:13:02 PM  

DamnYankees: jigger: nmrsnr: Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.

So I repeat my question: on 9/11, would it have not been okay to shoot down the planes because there were Americans on board, or if the hijackers had been US citizens?

This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.

What's the difference?


You could analogize shooting down a hijacked airliner (that you know is going to be used as a missile) to shooting a perp with a gun pointed at innocent people.
 
2013-03-05 08:14:29 PM  

bronyaur1: I am an Obama supporter, but this is a bad, bad path to go down.


Replace "drone" with rifle and you see that these are powers that the military already has.

"all enemies foreign and domestic"
 
2013-03-05 08:14:30 PM  

jigger: This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.


You're absolutely right, however, that was not the question asked, or the answer given. The question was "is there any scenario in which the President has authority us target a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil before trial?" The answer was "under extraordinary circumstances, yes."

I just gave you an extraordinary circumstance in which the answer was "yes."

What are we angry about, again?
 
2013-03-05 08:14:48 PM  

jigger: DamnYankees: jigger: nmrsnr: Bender The Offender: I farking hate Rand Paul, but he's right about this. It is not okay for the Government to be able to execute it's citizens without due process, I don't give a fark what your political persuasion is.

So I repeat my question: on 9/11, would it have not been okay to shoot down the planes because there were Americans on board, or if the hijackers had been US citizens?

This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.

What's the difference?

You could analogize shooting down a hijacked airliner (that you know is going to be used as a missile) to shooting a perp with a gun pointed at innocent people.


Good answer! My sentence structure sucked right there..
 
2013-03-05 08:14:55 PM  
But Holder, writing to Republican Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky, underlined that Obama "has no intention" of targeting his fellow citizens with unmanned aerial vehicles and would do so only if facing "an extraordinary circumstance."

Oh, ok, that makes me feel much better...

I would ask if they feel the person that follows Obama would have the same restraint? Or the person after them? These aren't rules they're making for the Obama Presidency, these are rules they're making for the Presidency in general. Once you cross these lines, it's a biatch to come back.
 
2013-03-05 08:15:20 PM  

Evil High Priest: If a cop sees you about to kill someone and shoots you dead, is that the same as them thinking that you're a threat, sometime in the future, staking out your house and killing you with a sniper?


It is not, but the question is do we empower cops to make the judgment as to whether something is an imminent threat. That's the issue. The government has never said they will kill Americans randomly by staking them out, as far as I know.

jigger: You could analogize shooting down a hijacked airliner (that you know is going to be used as a missile) to shooting a perp with a gun pointed at innocent people.


Exactly. And just like we empower cops to determine when something is dangerous enough to warrant lethal force, the government - in a war - has the power to determine the same. Whether its on US soil doesn't seem all that relevant to me.
 
2013-03-05 08:16:43 PM  

Car_Ramrod: I would ask if they feel the person that follows Obama would have the same restraint? Or the person after them? These aren't rules they're making for the Obama Presidency, these are rules they're making for the Presidency in general. Once you cross these lines, it's a biatch to come back.


Yes, they should. And I'm as liberal as they come. Like I said above, this has nothing to do with drones. It has everything to do with whether what's happening is a war or not. And if there's a war, they should have this power.

Now, I would argue this isn't a war, but that's not the premise.
 
2013-03-05 08:16:48 PM  

nmrsnr: extraordinary circumstances


Ok, but extraordinary circumstances have to have some sort of time restriction. If the threat is not immediate, why not just arrest?
 
2013-03-05 08:17:57 PM  

DamnYankees: in a war


Whar war?
 
2013-03-05 08:18:24 PM  

Evil High Priest: DamnYankees: in a war

Whar war?


There isn't one. And thats my objection.
 
2013-03-05 08:20:13 PM  

Evil High Priest: nmrsnr: extraordinary circumstances

Ok, but extraordinary circumstances have to have some sort of time restriction. If the threat is not immediate, why not just arrest?


I agree, but that wasn't the question Holder was asked. Why is his response of "I can't unequivocally say 'no' because there are some seriously farked up situations where it would probably be legal" so scary/rage inducing?
 
2013-03-05 08:20:24 PM  

nmrsnr: jigger: This is simply not the same thing as targeting a specific person for extra-judicial execution.

You're absolutely right, however, that was not the question asked, or the answer given. The question was "is there any scenario in which the President has authority us target a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil before trial?" The answer was "under extraordinary circumstances, yes."

I just gave you an extraordinary circumstance in which the answer was "yes."

What are we angry about, again?


The destruction of the constitution? The ability of the government to kill people because it wants to?

And what does your situation have to do with targeting people with drones?
 
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