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(610 WIOD)   Attorneys do not stand their ground on the defense for Zimmerman   (610wiod.com) divider line 549
    More: Interesting, George Zimmerman, Mark O'Mara  
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17600 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Mar 2013 at 6:32 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-05 03:38:11 PM
This is news?  I thought it was decided LONG ago that SYG in particular had no place in this case?

/DRINK!
 
2013-03-05 03:40:10 PM

nekom: This is news?  I thought it was decided LONG ago that SYG in particular had no place in this case?

/DRINK!


Not to the people defending him on here.
 
2013-03-05 03:45:22 PM
DRINK!
 
2013-03-05 03:47:41 PM
Defense attorneys also requested medical records for the woman Trayvon Martin had been on the phone with before he was shot but the state revealed there were no medical records for her.
O'Mara is trying to delve into her backround and investigate her.  He has already convinced the judge to allow him to subpoena her Twitter and Facebook accounts so he can read her posts.


This is beginning to sound kind of desperate. if this was my attorney, I'd be starting to wonder.
 
2013-03-05 04:02:08 PM

GAT_00: nekom: This is news?  I thought it was decided LONG ago that SYG in particular had no place in this case?

/DRINK!

Not to the people defending him on here.


I've never claimed SYG had a place in Zimmerman's defense.  He doesn't need it.  Even if he started the physical altercation (something that no one has any evidence of), under the self-defense law of every state he had the right to defend himself if he couldn't get away from Martin.  Since Martin had him pinned to the ground, he couldn't get away, so even *IF* Zimmerman threw the first punch, which seems unlikely, it's irrelevant.

Florida Statute on Self-Defense:

776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or(2)Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b)In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
 
2013-03-05 04:06:10 PM

St_Francis_P: Defense attorneys also requested medical records for the woman Trayvon Martin had been on the phone with before he was shot but the state revealed there were no medical records for her.
O'Mara is trying to delve into her backround and investigate her.  He has already convinced the judge to allow him to subpoena her Twitter and Facebook accounts so he can read her posts.

This is beginning to sound kind of desperate. if this was my attorney, I'd be starting to wonder.


The term "fishing expedition" comes to mind.
 
2013-03-05 04:07:51 PM

St_Francis_P: This is beginning to sound kind of desperate. if this was my attorney, I'd be starting to wonder.


If  Zimmerman had the ability to reflect he wouldn't be in this situation.
 
2013-03-05 04:11:50 PM
DRINK!
 
2013-03-05 04:14:02 PM

dittybopper: Even if he started the physical altercation (something that no one has any evidence of), under the self-defense law of every state he had the right to defend himself if he couldn't get away from Martin.


Yeah, you totally have the right to kill someone you started the fight with if you get your ass kicked.

And how can you be in "imminent danger" of your life ending if you have a gun and your assailant doesn't?  Isn't that the entire argument of why you should conceal carry, so you aren't at a disadvantage?  By definition, Zimmerman was at an advantage in firepower the entire time, even before he started the fight.  Which by the way is also a fact.  Zimmerman approached Martin, he started the fight.

Your entire argument is contradictions and personal assumptions.
 
2013-03-05 04:21:27 PM

GAT_00: dittybopper: Even if he started the physical altercation (something that no one has any evidence of), under the self-defense law of every state he had the right to defend himself if he couldn't get away from Martin.

Yeah, you totally have the right to kill someone you started the fight with if you get your ass kicked.

And how can you be in "imminent danger" of your life ending if you have a gun and your assailant doesn't?  Isn't that the entire argument of why you should conceal carry, so you aren't at a disadvantage?  By definition, Zimmerman was at an advantage in firepower the entire time, even before he started the fight.  Which by the way is also a fact.  Zimmerman approached Martin, he started the fight.

Your entire argument is contradictions and personal assumptions.


No, it isn't.  I quoted the actual Florida statute.  Every state that I'm aware of has a similar exception.

Also, approaching someone isn't starting a fight, but again, under the law, it's irrelevant:  Zimmerman was pinned to the ground by Martin, and Martin was assaulting him.   It doesn't legally matter that Zimmerman was armed and Martin wasn't.
 
2013-03-05 04:22:28 PM

nekom: This is news?  I thought it was decided LONG ago that SYG in particular had no place in this case?

/DRINK!


There are two relevant portions of Florida's SYG law.  One is the idea that (with some exceptions) you have no duty to retreat before using deadly force to defend yourself.  That's apparently not at issue in this case.

The other part of Florida's SYG law is that a defendant who is asserting that he acted in self defense--regardless of whether that self-defense argument has anything to do with the "stand your ground" principle--can file a motion for immunity and try to get the case dismissed before trial based on the self-defense argument.  That's the part that Zimmerman waived.
 
2013-03-05 04:26:51 PM
The burden of proof is seemingly on the prosecution. Do they have any witnesses?
 
2013-03-05 04:27:11 PM

El_Perro: nekom: This is news?  I thought it was decided LONG ago that SYG in particular had no place in this case?

/DRINK!

There are two relevant portions of Florida's SYG law.  One is the idea that (with some exceptions) you have no duty to retreat before using deadly force to defend yourself.  That's apparently not at issue in this case.

The other part of Florida's SYG law is that a defendant who is asserting that he acted in self defense--regardless of whether that self-defense argument has anything to do with the "stand your ground" principle--can file a motion for immunity and try to get the case dismissed before trial based on the self-defense argument.  That's the part that Zimmerman waived.


I always thought that SYG was EXCLUSIVELY applied only to a person on their own property? I could be wrong of course, I can barely keep up with my own state's weird laws much less those of Florida. It was my understanding that from the very get go the defense has been a standard self defense one, that being to convince a jury that any reasonable person in that situation would have felt they were in danger of death or serious bodily harm. And if that's indeed the criteria, they're going to have a hell of a time getting a conviction unless they have a VERY sympathetic jury. I don't care for Zimmerman one bit, but there isn't a whole lot to tear apart his story. That the other party who was knowledgeable of the events is dead certainly does nothing to help that.
 
2013-03-05 04:28:47 PM

dittybopper: I quoted the actual Florida statute.


And I said that is a flawed argument considering that he could not have felt like his life was in danger because he was armed.  He always had the advantage.  Therefore the statute does not apply.

dittybopper: It doesn't legally matter that Zimmerman was armed and Martin wasn't


Except of course for the fact that he then shot and killed Martin.  Little details.
 
2013-03-05 04:29:31 PM

nekom: I always thought that SYG was EXCLUSIVELY applied only to a person on their own property?


You may be thinking castle doctrine. SYG (in Florida anyway) doesn't have such limitations.
 
2013-03-05 04:31:30 PM

R.A.Danny: nekom: I always thought that SYG was EXCLUSIVELY applied only to a person on their own property?

You may be thinking castle doctrine. SYG (in Florida anyway) doesn't have such limitations.


That's what it is, I was under the impression that SYG was merely Florida's version of a castle doctrine. I thought it only removed the "duty to retreat" for homeowners, but I guess I was off on that one. In either case though, I seem to remember hearing very early on that SYG would not likely apply to the case.
 
2013-03-05 04:32:24 PM

GAT_00: Except of course for the fact that he then shot and killed Martin.  Little details.


Which may or may not be a crime. He hasn't been convicted of anything as of yet.
 
2013-03-05 04:32:42 PM

nekom: R.A.Danny: nekom: I always thought that SYG was EXCLUSIVELY applied only to a person on their own property?

You may be thinking castle doctrine. SYG (in Florida anyway) doesn't have such limitations.

That's what it is, I was under the impression that SYG was merely Florida's version of a castle doctrine. I thought it only removed the "duty to retreat" for homeowners, but I guess I was off on that one. In either case though, I seem to remember hearing very early on that SYG would not likely apply to the case.


Couldn't it be applied against him since he wrongly used it for justification for murdering Martin?
 
2013-03-05 04:33:25 PM

GAT_00: Couldn't it be applied against him since he wrongly used it for justification for murdering Martin?


Do you have the pitchforks out?
 
2013-03-05 04:38:23 PM
I think it's interesting that O'Mara decided not to claim Stand Your Ground for Zimmerman.

In Florida, if the claim for the SYG is made, a pre-trial hearing is made where the attorney can establish that the defendant was in reasonable fear for his safety by a preponderance of the evidence. If this is satisfied, then the trial ends because the defendant would've been justified to use the SYG claim and the judge would have to issue something similar to a summary judgment in favor of the defendant.

I think it's very interesting that O'Mara has opted not to take the pre-trial hearing on SYG and instead, he's taking his chances at a full trial.
 
2013-03-05 04:39:52 PM

R.A.Danny: GAT_00: Except of course for the fact that he then shot and killed Martin.  Little details.

Which may or may not be a crime. He hasn't been convicted of anything as of yet.


Ah, the civilized world, where the unnecessary murder of a child may just not be a crime.
 
2013-03-05 04:39:56 PM

GAT_00:
Couldn't it be applied against him since he wrongly used it for justification for murdering Martin?


I suppose that's for the courts to decide, all we can do is speculate in our respective armchairs here. He certainly shot and killed him, that much is known without question. Whether or not the jury will buy that he felt his life was threatened, well, I have my doubts. Don't get me wrong, I have NO love for Zimmerman, but I really don't see how this even got this far, to be honest. At the time he shot, he claims he acted in self defense. He WAS injured, whether that's relevant or not, well again that's for the jury to consider. If I had to bet even money on it, I'd say he walks. Not that that's necessarily "right" morally, but it seems the likely legal outcome.
 
2013-03-05 04:40:05 PM

RexTalionis: he's taking his chances at a full trial.


The evidence against Zimmerman is dead body and the fact that he's an asshole.
Neither are really evidence.
 
2013-03-05 04:43:01 PM

R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: he's taking his chances at a full trial.

The evidence against Zimmerman is dead body and the fact that he's an asshole.
Neither are really evidence.


Okay, so we've established that you're not a lawyer.
 
2013-03-05 04:43:07 PM

GAT_00: Ah, the GAT_000 world, where the unnecessary rape of a child may just not be a crime.

 
2013-03-05 04:43:49 PM

RexTalionis: R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: he's taking his chances at a full trial.

The evidence against Zimmerman is dead body and the fact that he's an asshole.
Neither are really evidence.

Okay, so we've established that you're not a lawyer.


Well if being an asshole is a crime you're absolutely right.
 
2013-03-05 04:45:00 PM
He shot and killed him and there is a recording of the police telling Zimmerman not to leave his car.  Murder
 
2013-03-05 04:45:30 PM

nekom: GAT_00:
Couldn't it be applied against him since he wrongly used it for justification for murdering Martin?

I suppose that's for the courts to decide, all we can do is speculate in our respective armchairs here. He certainly shot and killed him, that much is known without question. Whether or not the jury will buy that he felt his life was threatened, well, I have my doubts. Don't get me wrong, I have NO love for Zimmerman, but I really don't see how this even got this far, to be honest. At the time he shot, he claims he acted in self defense. He WAS injured, whether that's relevant or not, well again that's for the jury to consider. If I had to bet even money on it, I'd say he walks. Not that that's necessarily "right" morally, but it seems the likely legal outcome.


If we can't even decide who started the fight, how do we have any proof that Martin actually inflicted injuries on Zimmerman?  All these people saying we don't have proof of the fight also take it as an absolute, unquestionable truth that Martin inflicted injuries on Zimmerman.  That makes no sense.

R.A.Danny: GAT_00: Couldn't it be applied against him since he wrongly used it for justification for murdering Martin?

Do you have the pitchforks out?


I'm just waiting for you to suddenly move the goalposts again like the NRA thread.
 
2013-03-05 04:46:55 PM

R.A.Danny: GAT_00: Ah, the GAT_000 world, where the unnecessary rape of a child may just not be a crime.


Hey, there it is.  Childish insane personal attacks.
 
2013-03-05 04:52:42 PM

R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: he's taking his chances at a full trial.

The evidence against Zimmerman is dead body and the fact that he's an asshole.
Neither are really evidence.

Okay, so we've established that you're not a lawyer.

Well if being an asshole is a crime you're absolutely right.


Okay, 1) the dead body is absolutely evidence, and 2) evidence of his character is evidence, although for Florida and most jurisdictions, it's not admissible evidence.

Under Florida Evidence Code  90.404

90.404(1)CHARACTER EVIDENCE GENERALLY.-Evidence of a person's character or a trait of character is inadmissible to prove action in conformity with it on a particular occasion, except:

A defendant's character or trait of character is generally speaking, inadmissible, however:

90.404(1)(a)Character of accused.-Evidence of a pertinent trait of character offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait.

If the defense ever makes a claim that Zimmerman is a peaceful guy who wouldn't harm anyone, evidence of his character through past actions are absolutely admissible to rebut it.
 
2013-03-05 05:00:59 PM
Why don't we see recent pictures of martin when it's obvious he's a thug instead of pics of him as a child?
 
2013-03-05 05:04:56 PM
Where's that doucherocket that used to show up in every Zimmerman thread?
 
2013-03-05 05:18:10 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Where's that doucherocket that used to show up in every Zimmerman thread?


What, we need more blatantly false off-topic personal attacks?
 
2013-03-05 05:41:09 PM

GAT_00: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Where's that doucherocket that used to show up in every Zimmerman thread?

What, we need more blatantly false off-topic personal attacks?


Well, I don't think there's ever a shortage of those around here

/I just found that particular brand of spittle flinging outrage amusing
 
2013-03-05 05:45:00 PM

jehovahs witness protection: Why don't we see recent pictures of martin when it's obvious he's a thug instead of pics of him as a child?


I think recent pictures of him would be pretty unsettling.

Don't worry though: most black people are harmless after a year or so of decomposition.
 
2013-03-05 05:54:36 PM
imgace.com
 
2013-03-05 05:55:17 PM
I'm sure the fact that the girlfriend lied under oath won't be a problem at all for the prosecution, especially considering the very obvious way her testimony is being misinterpreted.

Example, "I told him to run, he said he would not run" can be read one of two ways. That he was going to be brave and not run any further that he had and he was fed up, or that he was looking to pick a fight and ignore sound advice.

Considering he was already at his home, and could have easily just gone inside to avoid the situation entirely, I lean towards the latter. Funny how the way it's framed in the news is more similar to the former. But how could this possibly matter, amirite?
 
2013-03-05 05:56:19 PM

GAT_00:
If we can't even decide who started the fight, how do we have any proof that Martin actually inflicted injuries on Zimmerman?  All these people saying we don't have proof of the fight also take it as an absolute, unquestionable truth that Martin inflicted injuries on Zimmerman.  That makes no sense.


It is my understanding (again, I could be wrong) that it really doesn't matter who started the fight. The point of the self defense argument is that AT THE TIME that he decided to use lethal force, he felt that he was in danger of death or serious bodily harm. Doesn't matter how that came to be, doesn't matter if he was literally asking for it, he feared for his life and decided to use his gun. That's basically ALL he needs to convince a jury, and maybe that a reasonable person would have felt the same. Martin is unfortunately no longer with us, and it doesn't appear as though any other witnesses exist that saw much of anything.

So where does that leave the prosecution? Dude said he got scared, the physical evidence is that there WAS an altercation and he did, well at the very least something happened to make him bleed somewhat. What's there to refute his story? Again, I do NOT defend him, or his actions, but honestly, in a court of law, where's the case? Why was this charge even filed?
 
2013-03-05 05:57:43 PM

R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: he's taking his chances at a full trial.

The evidence against Zimmerman is dead body and the fact that he's an asshole.
Neither are really evidence.


and a confession. That might be important.
 
2013-03-05 06:00:37 PM

R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: R.A.Danny: RexTalionis: he's taking his chances at a full trial.

The evidence against Zimmerman is dead body and the fact that he's an asshole.
Neither are really evidence.

Okay, so we've established that you're not a lawyer.

Well if being an asshole is a crime you're absolutely right.


ANd you don't speak or comprehend English.
 
2013-03-05 06:01:31 PM

GAT_00: If we can't even decide who started the fight, how do we have any proof that Martin actually inflicted injuries on Zimmerman? All these people saying we don't have proof of the fight also take it as an absolute, unquestionable truth that Martin inflicted injuries on Zimmerman. That makes no sense.


This is just you being incredibly obtuse.

The call between the girlfriend/Trayvon was whatever:12. The police showed up at whatever:17. That's a five minute window. Every witness to any portion of the event reports seeing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him MMA style while Zimmerman called for help. The wounds on both from the autopsy and Zimmerman are consistent with this. Unless Obama's magic time machine can be lent out to Zimmerman, I don't see how there is any reasonable belief to this not being true, nor any evidence to support otherwise.
 
2013-03-05 06:02:38 PM

nekom: Why was this charge even filed?


Probably outrage and political pressure.
 
2013-03-05 06:03:59 PM
So basically O'Mara doesn't think he has enough of an argument to convince a judge, so he's going to put the argument in front of a jury. Meh.
 
2013-03-05 06:04:21 PM

nekom: GAT_00:
If we can't even decide who started the fight, how do we have any proof that Martin actually inflicted injuries on Zimmerman?  All these people saying we don't have proof of the fight also take it as an absolute, unquestionable truth that Martin inflicted injuries on Zimmerman.  That makes no sense.


It is my understanding (again, I could be wrong) that it really doesn't matter who started the fight. The point of the self defense argument is that AT THE TIME that he decided to use lethal force, he felt that he was in danger of death or serious bodily harm. Doesn't matter how that came to be, doesn't matter if he was literally asking for it, he feared for his life and decided to use his gun. That's basically ALL he needs to convince a jury, and maybe that a reasonable person would have felt the same. Martin is unfortunately no longer with us, and it doesn't appear as though any other witnesses exist that saw much of anything.

So where does that leave the prosecution? Dude said he got scared, the physical evidence is that there WAS an altercation and he did, well at the very least something happened to make him bleed somewhat. What's there to refute his story? Again, I do NOT defend him, or his actions, but honestly, in a court of law, where's the case? Why was this charge even filed?


Is it possible to get him convicted of criminal recklessness leading to manslaughter? There is a recording of the police telling him not to get involved, but I am not a lawyer.
 
2013-03-05 06:06:37 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: nekom: GAT_00:
If we can't even decide who started the fight, how do we have any proof that Martin actually inflicted injuries on Zimmerman?  All these people saying we don't have proof of the fight also take it as an absolute, unquestionable truth that Martin inflicted injuries on Zimmerman.  That makes no sense.


It is my understanding (again, I could be wrong) that it really doesn't matter who started the fight. The point of the self defense argument is that AT THE TIME that he decided to use lethal force, he felt that he was in danger of death or serious bodily harm. Doesn't matter how that came to be, doesn't matter if he was literally asking for it, he feared for his life and decided to use his gun. That's basically ALL he needs to convince a jury, and maybe that a reasonable person would have felt the same. Martin is unfortunately no longer with us, and it doesn't appear as though any other witnesses exist that saw much of anything.

So where does that leave the prosecution? Dude said he got scared, the physical evidence is that there WAS an altercation and he did, well at the very least something happened to make him bleed somewhat. What's there to refute his story? Again, I do NOT defend him, or his actions, but honestly, in a court of law, where's the case? Why was this charge even filed?

Is it possible to get him convicted of criminal recklessness leading to manslaughter? There is a recording of the police telling him not to get involved, but I am not a lawyer.


"you dont have to do that" is police telling not to get involved?

I wish people would at least educate themselves with the basic facts on this case before commenting.
 
2013-03-05 06:07:46 PM

justtray: Every witness to any portion of the event reports seeing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him MMA style while Zimmerman called for help.


Except they didn't. They changed their stories.
 
2013-03-05 06:08:24 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: nekom: Why was this charge even filed?

Probably outrage and political pressure.


And it didn't occur to the prosecutor that an acquittal would probably do more in the long run to fan tensions in the area than just ignoring it would have? I mean, honestly given the choice between the two: Ignoring it now, or letting it inflate to a media circus and THEN he walks, seems an easy call to me.

Look, a young man is DEAD and that's farking tragic. Anyone who doesn't come away from this all with at least that is a heartless bastard. Zimmerman almost certainly acted in a very douchey way, and he wound up shooting an unarmed teenager. That really sucks. But to drag this on and on with AT BEST a murky case, I just don't think it serves the public interest. Just my two cents.
 
2013-03-05 06:11:03 PM
You know, I just had a thought...How many people think that Zimmerman didn't have to listen to the dispatcher, yet are aghast because someone didn't do CPR on an old lady when the dispatcher told them to.

//so Yeah O'Mara thinks he'll lose the immunity hearing which means Zimmerman'd be farked at trial. Not really a bad move.
 
2013-03-05 06:30:34 PM

nekom: letting it inflate to a media circus and THEN he walks, seems an easy call to me.


Maybe it will play out like OJ and Zimmerman will lose the civil suit. Honestly if he would have listened to the dispatcher nothing would have happened.
 
2013-03-05 06:34:41 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: nekom: letting it inflate to a media circus and THEN he walks, seems an easy call to me.

Maybe it will play out like OJ and Zimmerman will lose the civil suit. Honestly if he would have listened to the dispatcher nothing would have happened.


A wrongful death civil suit is certainly in the cards. The burden of proof is a lot less in a civil case. He may well lose and well, maybe he ought to. The dude DID overstep what I would define as reason. I don't think it amounts to MURDER, but I could certainly see him losing a wrongful death lawsuit.
 
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