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(BBC)   Herschel space telescope to go blind, develop acne and hairy palms   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 34
    More: Sad, Herschel Space Observatory, telescopes, galaxy formation and evolution, galaxy formation, Hairy palms and soles, European Space Agency, detectors  
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2114 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Mar 2013 at 2:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-05 02:13:35 PM  
Maybe if should be sent out to a farm.
 
2013-03-05 02:18:59 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: Maybe if should be sent out to a farm.


It's not safe there.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-05 02:21:27 PM  
Minnesota still considering offering NASA five satellites and eight draft picks for it.
 
2013-03-05 02:28:51 PM  
I clicked the link wondering what kind of pron do orbital telescopes look at.
 
2013-03-05 02:29:59 PM  
soooo it'll suffer the same fate as those nerds operating it. Fitting
 
2013-03-05 02:34:15 PM  
Once the detectors start to warm from their ultra-frigid state, they will stop working. The end, when it happens, will be quite sudden.

You'd think somewhere in design stage someone somewhere would have come up with the idea to shut the detectors down, and made the fluid refillable.
 
2013-03-05 02:44:10 PM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Once the detectors start to warm from their ultra-frigid state, they will stop working. The end, when it happens, will be quite sudden.

You'd think somewhere in design stage someone somewhere would have come up with the idea to shut the detectors down, and made the fluid refillable.


The problem with that is how do you get more helium up there? It's quite a long way from Earth.
 
2013-03-05 02:44:36 PM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Once the detectors start to warm from their ultra-frigid state, they will stop working. The end, when it happens, will be quite sudden.

You'd think somewhere in design stage someone somewhere would have come up with the idea to shut the detectors down, and made the fluid refillable.


Herschel orbits at the earth-sun L2 point. That's not exactly the easiest place to get a refueling mission to, even if it were feasible. Hubble's repeated refurbishings were only possible because it sits in low orbit where the shuttle could get to it. A robotic refueling mission to L2, even if the scope were designed to be refueled, would be very expensive, probably a good chunk of the cost of a *new* telescope.

And I find it amusing that you think that somehow all of the highly intelligent people we put on designing these sorts of things would be incapable of coming up with such a simple idea. If they didn't do something that seems obvious to you, there's probably a good reason for it.

/sad to see it go
//whole thing wouldn't be nearly so sad if us stupid apes were actually willing to invest money in science instead of blowing each other up
 
2013-03-05 02:53:13 PM  
If only we had some kind of craft to go up there and repair it!
 
2013-03-05 02:55:55 PM  

MuonNeutrino: And I find it amusing that you think that somehow all of the highly intelligent people we put on designing these sorts of things would be incapable of coming up with such a simple idea. If they didn't do something that seems obvious to you, there's probably a good reason for it.


My point was you would think someone would have at least made the argument that such a great tool is worth keeping working for longer than it has. Three years and we're done with a tool that has made some arguably amazing discoveries?

The comment was my lament that we couldn't keep something like this up for longer not a derision on the engineers who created it, that is all.
 
2013-03-05 02:56:39 PM  
Well, thank goodness we won't be wasting any money on that science crap.


Pardon me, I'm gonna go bang my head on the wall.
 
2013-03-05 03:19:42 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

RIP, funny satellite
 
2013-03-05 03:29:23 PM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: MuonNeutrino: And I find it amusing that you think that somehow all of the highly intelligent people we put on designing these sorts of things would be incapable of coming up with such a simple idea. If they didn't do something that seems obvious to you, there's probably a good reason for it.

My point was you would think someone would have at least made the argument that such a great tool is worth keeping working for longer than it has. Three years and we're done with a tool that has made some arguably amazing discoveries?

The comment was my lament that we couldn't keep something like this up for longer not a derision on the engineers who created it, that is all.


It's a common problem for IR telescopes- the Spitzer space telescope had the exact same issue when it ran out of coolant, although it has a detector left that can operate at warmer temperatures.  Herschel was designed for longer wavelengths and thus needs the cold instruments

It's almost a million miles from Earth at the L2 point- that's about 4x as far as the moon.  We don't have anything on the drawing board that could travel out there with a dewar of helium, mate with it and refuel it.  Neat idea, but it would probably be cheaper to just launch another one.
 
2013-03-05 03:31:39 PM  

perigee: If only we had some kind of craft to go up there and repair it!


We never had one capable of that.
 
2013-03-05 03:36:08 PM  
And we're five years from the launch of the James Webb Space Telescope, if it doesn't get defunded.
 
2013-03-05 03:51:48 PM  

perigee: If only we had some kind of craft to go up there and repair it!


it's not orbiting earth.  she's out a touch further.
 
2013-03-05 04:06:23 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: Neat idea, but it would probably be cheaper to just launch another one.


Yeah but you would think pushing research, engineering and design into creating a system that does work would IDK help create systems in place that would continue to assist our outward push away from this rock.
 
2013-03-05 04:18:28 PM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Glockenspiel Hero: Neat idea, but it would probably be cheaper to just launch another one.

Yeah but you would think pushing research, engineering and design into creating a system that does work would IDK help create systems in place that would continue to assist our outward push away from this rock.


NASA stopped doing that when they accepted the design for the Space Shuttle. It was never expected to go beyond LEO. The Office of Manned Space-Flight was turned into a delivery and taxi service.
 
2013-03-05 04:28:34 PM  

give me doughnuts: NASA stopped doing that when they accepted the design for the Space Shuttle. It was never expected to go beyond LEO. The Office of Manned Space-Flight was turned into a delivery and taxi service.


I used to think getting private corporations was a terrible idea to get us into space, but I've come to accept it because its obvious that when you introduce politics into anything anymore it just turns it into shiat.
 
2013-03-05 04:36:45 PM  

tom baker's scarf: perigee: If only we had some kind of craft to go up there and repair it!

it's not orbiting earth.  she's out a touch further.


I wonder if that refueling gizmo they were working with on the ISS could be used to revive Herschel at some point in the future. Seems like a waste to have it up there and not be able to use it.
 
2013-03-05 04:43:53 PM  
The JWST is going to L2 in 2018 (supposedly) Why not just send along an He tank along with it? We'd get binoculars!
 
2013-03-05 04:49:48 PM  

SewerSquirrels: tom baker's scarf: perigee: If only we had some kind of craft to go up there and repair it!

it's not orbiting earth.  she's out a touch further.

I wonder if that refueling gizmo they were working with on the ISS could be used to revive Herschel at some point in the future. Seems like a waste to have it up there and not be able to use it.


My guess is that after extensive retrofitting and testing you'd end up with a "refueling gizmo" you can't get back and a telescope that almost got refueled, but not quite.

I doubt there is a He quick-connect on the outside of the telescope. They obviously weren't planning on refueling it so they probably didn't add in a mechanism by which it could be, you know, refueled.

Sometimes you got to let those hard to reach satellites (and Pringles) go.
 
2013-03-05 04:57:48 PM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: give me doughnuts: NASA stopped doing that when they accepted the design for the Space Shuttle. It was never expected to go beyond LEO. The Office of Manned Space-Flight was turned into a delivery and taxi service.

I used to think getting private corporations was a terrible idea to get us into space, but I've come to accept it because its obvious that when you introduce politics into anything anymore it just turns it into shiat.


Like the private company that landed us on the moon in 9 years?
 
2013-03-05 04:58:04 PM  
If only the scientists designing space telescopes came to Fark they would realise they could have refuelled Herschel and investigated potential plans to do so and what the relative costs and benefits to do so would be. Obviously them not being Farkers, they couldn't be expected to come up with such a revolutionary concept themselves.
 
2013-03-05 05:21:25 PM  

tom baker's scarf: I doubt there is a He quick-connect on the outside of the telescope. They obviously weren't planning on refueling it so they probably didn't add in a mechanism by which it could be, you know, refueled.


Since the He had to be charged just before launch, there probably is a connector in an accessible location. Getting out there is still a problem, but there are  repair robots in the works for geostationary satellites. It's not that much further in terms of energy.
 
2013-03-05 05:21:34 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: Maybe if should be sent out to a farm.


It's lucky it's not losing a leg.
 
2013-03-05 06:55:28 PM  
I broke the telescope.
 
2013-03-05 07:35:59 PM  
In that case, they should rename it the Philip Roth Space Telescope.
 
2013-03-05 07:47:40 PM  
Space isn't cold enough? What if something like this was built inside a sunshade that was attached in a way that didn't conduct heat to the main body? Would it still need a coolant and/or would the coolant be consumed as quickly?
 
2013-03-05 07:49:49 PM  
i1012.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-05 07:50:30 PM  

Nem Wan: Space isn't cold enough? What if something like this was built inside a sunshade that was attached in a way that didn't conduct heat to the main body? Would it still need a coolant and/or would the coolant be consumed as quickly?


There's no air in space to allow cooling by conduction or convection. The telescope would only cool by radiation, which takes a long time.
 
2013-03-05 09:26:43 PM  

Nem Wan: Space isn't cold enough? What if something like this was built inside a sunshade that was attached in a way that didn't conduct heat to the main body? Would it still need a coolant and/or would the coolant be consumed as quickly?


See picture above- it does have a sunshade.  As mentioned above, space is actually an incredibly good insulator- it's very tough to dump waste heat since the only mode is radiation.

Even so, the instruments are kept colder than space- 2K
 
2013-03-05 09:45:03 PM  

natazha: tom baker's scarf: I doubt there is a He quick-connect on the outside of the telescope. They obviously weren't planning on refueling it so they probably didn't add in a mechanism by which it could be, you know, refueled.

Since the He had to be charged just before launch, there probably is a connector in an accessible location. Getting out there is still a problem, but there are  repair robots in the works for geostationary satellites. It's not that much further in terms of energy.


Geostationary satellites are 35,786 kilometers (22,236 mi) above the Earth's equator

Lagrange Point 2 (or L2 as it is affectionately called) is 1,500,000 km (930,000 mi) from the Earth

So, a little further in terms of energy
 
2013-03-05 11:16:50 PM  

Witty_Retort: natazha: tom baker's scarf: I doubt there is a He quick-connect on the outside of the telescope. They obviously weren't planning on refueling it so they probably didn't add in a mechanism by which it could be, you know, refueled.

Since the He had to be charged just before launch, there probably is a connector in an accessible location. Getting out there is still a problem, but there are  repair robots in the works for geostationary satellites. It's not that much further in terms of energy.

Geostationary satellites are 35,786 kilometers (22,236 mi) above the Earth's equator

Lagrange Point 2 (or L2 as it is affectionately called) is 1,500,000 km (930,000 mi) from the Earth

So, a little further in terms of energy


You do know what energy is, right?  And that it's not the same as distance?

Sitting still at sea level, every kilogram of mass has about 62.5 megajoules of binding energy with respect to Earth, i.e. the total specific energy is -62.5 MJ/kg.  Low Earth orbits are around -30 MJ/kg (almost the same gravitational potential energy, but half of it is canceled out by kinetic energy), geostationary orbits have -4.7 MJ/kg, and the L2 point is close enough to unbound to make little difference.  That means going from the surface to geostationary orbit requires dumping 57.8 MJ/kg into the payload.  Going to L2 requires about 62.5 MJ/kg.  That's less than a 10% increase, which is the sort of result you can get by strapping a couple extra solid boosters to your Atlas or Delta.
 
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