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(PCWorld)   Why are PC sales down? Moore's law   (pcworld.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Moore's Law, Economic stagnation, limiting factor, World Wide Web, word processing, CPUs, newegg, Electric energy consumption  
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9617 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Mar 2013 at 2:59 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-05 01:34:28 PM  
Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.
 
2013-03-05 01:39:26 PM  
Linux runs just fine on a Pentium IV for regular daily use.
 
2013-03-05 01:45:53 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.


Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.
 
2013-03-05 01:47:00 PM  
With the launch of the new Playstation and X-Box, I think we'll see a lot of people upgrading their PCs.  Why?  Games have always been the big driver for upgrading the PC.  And almost all games made these days are built for the console first, and then ported to the PC.  Current console technology is so old (Skyrim uses DirectX 9), that its actually been holding back game devs on the PC side of things.  With new, higher powered consoles coming out, the PC versions will finally start requiring not just a new graphics card, but new PC architecture in order to keep up with console gaming.
 
2013-03-05 01:55:21 PM  

ShawnDoc: With the launch of the new Playstation and X-Box, I think we'll see a lot of people upgrading their PCs.  Why?  Games have always been the big driver for upgrading the PC.  And almost all games made these days are built for the console first, and then ported to the PC.  Current console technology is so old (Skyrim uses DirectX 9), that its actually been holding back game devs on the PC side of things.  With new, higher powered consoles coming out, the PC versions will finally start requiring not just a new graphics card, but new PC architecture in order to keep up with console gaming.


Well said.  Nice info, Subby.
 
2013-03-05 01:55:37 PM  
That article seem to say the opposite - Moore's law is no longer holding. If processing power is only improving 10% per year, then the law has been broken.
 
2013-03-05 01:58:21 PM  

DamnYankees: That article seem to say the opposite - Moore's law is no longer holding. If processing power is only improving 10% per year, then the law has been broken.


Moore's law doesn't talk about processing power, only number of affordable transistors in a given space.  These days, it means increasing the number of cores rather than going to 4Ghz.  Most desktops don't need 6 or 8 cores.

Aside from migrating to an SSD and adding a second monitor, I haven't upgraded my main system in probably 3 years and don't really see a need to.
 
2013-03-05 02:11:16 PM  

AltheaToldMe: Well said. Nice info, Subby.


Not subs, sorry.
 
2013-03-05 02:17:40 PM  

ShawnDoc: With the launch of the new Playstation and X-Box, I think we'll see a lot of people upgrading their PCs.  Why?  Games have always been the big driver for upgrading the PC.  And almost all games made these days are built for the console first, and then ported to the PC.  Current console technology is so old (Skyrim uses DirectX 9), that its actually been holding back game devs on the PC side of things.  With new, higher powered consoles coming out, the PC versions will finally start requiring not just a new graphics card, but new PC architecture in order to keep up with console gaming.


I came to say something similar, but you were much more articulate.
 
2013-03-05 02:32:49 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me. I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do. PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.


I'm kind of on the opposite end, I just built a PC that I believe will carry me through the next five years at least.  The hardware is just so far ahead.  Actually, the hardware is even more "ahead" of the software now than a couple of years ago, at least for the OS, Win7 runs better on my old system than XP did.  The most I might have to do at some point, and even this won't be for a while, it to get a more powerful video card.
 
2013-03-05 02:33:08 PM  
I'm seeing a lot of people who are (correctly and pragmatically) referring to what people "need" to run games.

But mod-heads don't think in terms of need. They get what they WANT. Overclocked this, multi-core that, water-cooled the other thing. If there's a doohickey they can slap into their towers that'll theoretically let them squeeze out an incremental performance boost, they'll pay hundreds for it. And I'm not down for that.

Which is part of the reason I've always stuck to consoles. I don't like having to wade through endless system requirements, wondering if my system can handle a game every time I want to play something. I just want to drop it in, and know it's going to work. Yes, graphics are important, but the incremental differences don't (to ME, at least) justify expensive quarterly upgrades. A new $300 graphics card just to make the textures 3% smoother? That's a choice I don't see a lot of point in making.

Well, that, and I grew up with a controller in my hand. So I like being able to sit on the couch and use an interface ergonomically designed to play games, instead of cramping my hands up using devices meant to move cursors and enter text, but that have been reverse-engineered to be sufficient.

/yeah, i sound fat
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-05 02:33:47 PM  
Did CPU performance reach a "good enough" level for mainstream users some years back? Are older computers still potent enough to complete an average Joe's everyday tasks, reducing the incentive to upgrade?

See "Forrest curve." Starting in the late 1990s Jon Forrest posted an annualish commentary on usenet about how computers were getting fast enough for typical uses and most users didn't have an urgent need to update for performance reasons.
 
2013-03-05 02:42:38 PM  
640K ought to be enough for anyone.
 
2013-03-05 02:59:16 PM  
MaxxLarge:
/yeah, i sound fat

Eh, it is like anything.  Look at the folks who heavily mod their 4 cyl Honda Civics.  They will take a car worth $8K, with 130 horse power, drop $20K in mods into it to push it to 200 horse power, then over the next few years, blow through 3 transmissions at $2000 each...whereas for $32,000 they could have purchased a brand new or even slightly used (less than $30,000 at that point) Nissan Z that's more reliable and has over 300 horse power to begin with.  And it does not sound like it is farting as you drive it...
 
2013-03-05 03:00:30 PM  
I provide helpdesk for a company of 70 or so users, most of whom are on Dells running Windows XP and were purchased 8 or 9 years ago. I complain about how slow they are because I'm used to a fast machine, but most people can get their work done on them just fine. I had predicted upgrading to Office 2010 would make them slow to a crawl, but I actually turned out to be wrong about that.
 
2013-03-05 03:03:15 PM  
Still not enough power to play FSX with addons and traffic at full...
 
2013-03-05 03:03:15 PM  
"...would a  paradigm-shatteringdevice like  Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet..."

Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.
 
2013-03-05 03:06:20 PM  
images.pcworld.com
 
2013-03-05 03:06:43 PM  

Slives: People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.


Unless you're talking about Macs. I use Macs at work but that's work. From what I understand it, it's difficult if not impossible to upgrade a Mac and the Apple store doesn't take trade ins. But like I said, that's not my problem.
 
2013-03-05 03:07:04 PM  
Maybe because people don't have a lot of spare money to buy a new machine?
 
2013-03-05 03:09:36 PM  
You used to have to purchase the latest and greatest shiat to play the latest and greatest shiat game being put out that year. Not so much lately though, my almost 2 year old computer can run the most recent games at a decent resolution.
 
2013-03-05 03:10:33 PM  

Mugato: Slives: People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.

Unless you're talking about Macs. I use Macs at work but that's work. From what I understand it, it's difficult if not impossible to upgrade a Mac and the Apple store doesn't take trade ins. But like I said, that's not my problem.


And the newest MBPs with retina display cant upgrade their RAM.  You are stuck with a max of 8GB IIRC.
 
2013-03-05 03:11:06 PM  
iphonewallpaperclub.com


http://www.google.com/search?q=moore+ s exy&hl=en&safe=off&source=lnms&t bm=isch&sa=X&ei=1E82UbGLGsrM2AWG1YH4Cg &ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=416 #biv=i%7C7%3Bd%7CxaSKD21QyHjrgM%3A
 
2013-03-05 03:11:56 PM  

Mugato: Slives: People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.

Unless you're talking about Macs. I use Macs at work but that's work. From what I understand it, it's difficult if not impossible to upgrade a Mac and the Apple store doesn't take trade ins. But like I said, that's not my problem.


Also, don't most people use laptops these days? You basically need to replace those in their entirety.
 
2013-03-05 03:12:20 PM  
Glad to hear its not just me. I upgraded with pretty high-end parts back in '07, and apart from an SSD, a couple extra Gb's of memory, and a new video card, its the same hardware.

All I use it for is browsing, playing videos and music, some Photoshop, Second Life, and the ocassional indie game.
 
2013-03-05 03:12:27 PM  
It makes sense to me too. The only reason I replaced my last laptop was because the video card went dead. Neither the built-in monitor nor an external monitor worked anymore.

I had no problems with its performance.

In fact, hardware failures always seem to be why I've replaced computers for a years if not decades.

If I were a practical person I would remove the hard drive from my old laptop and see if it could be fixed. But when it went dead I just had to have something that worked right then and there so I bought this crappy Acer and even though it's not great, it does the job.
 
2013-03-05 03:14:11 PM  

whistleridge: Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.


I agree with you, but I recently saw the reddit thread where the dude from Penny Arcade reviewed one. You would be surprised how many people in that thread had no idea that the Surface Pro had a Wacom (or whatever) stylus input. Microsoft is doing a shiatty job marketing that thing when it could be seen as much more. They're advertising it like a more expensive alternative to an iPad, when in realize it's a less expensive / more capable alternative to a Macbook Air.
 
2013-03-05 03:14:28 PM  

wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]


Yeah, because nobody knows how to install an OS on their computer. That's why PC sales crashed when both ME and Vista surfaced, right?
 
2013-03-05 03:14:46 PM  

Endive Wombat: Mugato: Slives: People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.

Unless you're talking about Macs. I use Macs at work but that's work. From what I understand it, it's difficult if not impossible to upgrade a Mac and the Apple store doesn't take trade ins. But like I said, that's not my problem.

And the newest MBPs with retina display cant upgrade their RAM.  You are stuck with a max of 8GB IIRC.


You know more than I do. I just know that I use a Mac at work, have a PC at home and the boss is always biatching about having to buy new units all the time. And I was pricing Macs but the guy at the Apple store said they don't take trade ins. I mean I'm sure you can unload them somehow but that seems like a lot of work.
 
2013-03-05 03:15:21 PM  
I have a quad core pc at home that I built around 2007 / 2008. Had Windows XP on it for a while. I reload the OS every couple years (use NAS so no worries about formatting the OS drive) and the last time I did it, I dreaded starting with a 2003 vintage XP disk then updating service packs for several hours. Plus it was not seeing my onboard NIC.

Loaded Ubuntu 10 instead. Am now on 12 and to the point of the article, it's fine for what I do: web, spreadsheets, printing, video etc. If the mobo fries, then I'll upgrade. Otherwise f it.
 
2013-03-05 03:16:16 PM  
Yeah, my PC is 5 or 6 years old, and when I bought Skyrim, I upped the video card, but it was playing on medium settings just fine even before that. I plan on building a new machine in the next year or so, but it's not because I HAVE to.
 
2013-03-05 03:16:44 PM  

whistleridge: "...would a  paradigm-shatteringdevice like  Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet..."

Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.


This
 
2013-03-05 03:17:19 PM  

jonny_q: Microsoft is doing a shiatty job marketing that thing when it could be seen as much more. They're advertising it like a more expensive alternative to an iPad, when in realize it's a less expensive / more capable alternative to a Macbook Air.


Yeah, so far from all of the Surface ads I've seen, I've been able to figure out that it's a great tool for group choreographed dancing, and that's about it.
 
2013-03-05 03:17:37 PM  
yep.  games have been the only thing taxing the vast majority of home systems for the last few year now.  the increases in console systems over desktop combined with the vast improvements in desktop processor power makes upgrading less and less necessary.

i think it is funny that the desire to play games on what were intended to be business machines have pushed the advancement so far forward that the majority of desktop sales will once again be for business purposes.
 
2013-03-05 03:20:37 PM  
[notthisagain.jpg]

People have been trotting out this theory at least as far back as the 1980s:  the computer market is about to slow down, or it is slowing down, because last year's computers are already more than fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

Every time the economy goes kaput, no matter how obvious the reason why---a tech bubble, a mortgage crisis, an Asian market crisis---some fool manages to get on CNBC and explain the real reason tech stocks are down: because the PC market is finally saturated, because last year's computers are officially fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

And it's true:  computers in 1984 were already more than fast enough to run the Pinball Construction Set and connect to a BBS at 4800 baud.  Computers in 1992 were already more than fast enough for writing term papers and maybe sending an email.  Computers in 2000 were already more than fast enough to surf the net.  Computers in 2012 are already more than fast enough to watch full-screen video.  Because that's what "computers are for."

What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus.  Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.
 
2013-03-05 03:21:53 PM  
I use my three year old machine for CAD drafting, 3D modeling, rendering and animation (using AutoCAD 11, Sketchup, Kerkythea and VideoMach respectively). Frankly, I'm embarrassed at how quickly I can churn out a 20 second flyby animation--I used to charge for "unattended computer time" back when an animation might take 50 hours to generate; now it takes two. I have no need, or plans, to upgrade any time soon. I certainly don't want to see my software/freeware investment disappear down the black hole of Windows 8.
 
2013-03-05 03:22:15 PM  
My dad surfs the internet, writes emails, and plays Solitaire.

His computer has a Core 2 Duo E6300. I know that eventually, the hardware will fail in a way that can't be easily fixed, either from capacitor aging, a power surge, or whatever. But it's not getting replaced short of that ultimate failure. He'll never need more CPU power.
 
2013-03-05 03:23:03 PM  
Oops, AutoCAD 2011, not AutoCAD 11. Big difference.
 
2013-03-05 03:24:41 PM  
i'm running a 3+ year old macbook pro with a 2.66 GHz core i7. the only thing i did was up its RAM to 8GB last year. as far as i'm concerned, it's plenty fast for just about anything i need. my wife's 5 year old macbook is also fine - apart from the fact that its body is completely warped due to overheating when the cat decided to take a warm, toasty nap on its keyboard.
 
2013-03-05 03:26:22 PM  

OceanVortex: whistleridge: "...would a  paradigm-shatteringdevice like  Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet..."

Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.

This


I alomost bought it over the Transformer Infinity I just bought. Surface gets pretty good reviews, but the Infinity still edged it out, and I don't like the flat keys on the keyboard. All in all though, it's a tablet with a few new innovations that nobody else has. No, not "paradigm shattering", but at least worth a little bit of respect.

Although, as I said justa few minutes ago, we wouldn't know this from the farking ads they choose to air. Those things are about as useless as tits on a fish.
 
2013-03-05 03:26:58 PM  
Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.
 
2013-03-05 03:28:12 PM  

Xcott: What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus. Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.


Right but there has to be some diminishing returns limit at some point. Like what is the most intensive thing most non-gamers do with their machines? Download or stream movies I suppose. Your off the shelf PC can do that well. So what's next? What more is the average user going to do? Because unless some kid is going to create SkyNet on his laptop, I don't know what more the average user is going to expect to do with their machine.
 
2013-03-05 03:30:10 PM  
The only sub-9-year-old computers around here that really needed replacing were the "fixed at 2GB" MacBook Airs that Apple was selling just 2 years ago.  Then MacOS went into "MAXIMUM BLOATING" mode, so now they're barely passable as glorified Chromebooks.
 
2013-03-05 03:30:16 PM  
would a paradigm-shattering device like Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet even be around today?

I thought the article was great until I saw this.
 
2013-03-05 03:30:42 PM  

jonny_q: whistleridge: Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.

I agree with you, but I recently saw the reddit thread where the dude from Penny Arcade reviewed one. You would be surprised how many people in that thread had no idea that the Surface Pro had a Wacom (or whatever) stylus input. Microsoft is doing a shiatty job marketing that thing when it could be seen as much more. They're advertising it like a more expensive alternative to an iPad, when in realize it's a less expensive / more capable alternative to a Macbook Air.


I was excited about the Surface before it came out, really wanted to love it.  I'd just bought a Windows 8 Phone, and was planning on getting the Surface RT to go along as a general purpose tablet, but the poor screen quality just killed it for me and I ended up getting an iPad instead.

Thinking about the Surface tablets more as general purpose computers (I guess especially the Pro version) instead of tablets might make them make more sense, but if I want a portable general purpose computer I'm not going to be satisfied with the tiny screen size or resolution on either of the Surface models (then again, I'm mystified by the popularity of the MacBook Air, seems too small to actually get any work done).  If I'm going to buy a laptop, I want a 17" 2560x1600 screen, quad core i7, at least 8 gigs of RAM, a SSD + spinning hard drive for bulk storage and a blu-ray/DVD/CD burner all built in.  Of course, no one makes that, and I don't really need a laptop anyway...
 
2013-03-05 03:31:45 PM  

Xcott: [notthisagain.jpg]

People have been trotting out this theory at least as far back as the 1980s:  the computer market is about to slow down, or it is slowing down, because last year's computers are already more than fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

Every time the economy goes kaput, no matter how obvious the reason why---a tech bubble, a mortgage crisis, an Asian market crisis---some fool manages to get on CNBC and explain the real reason tech stocks are down: because the PC market is finally saturated, because last year's computers are officially fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

And it's true:  computers in 1984 were already more than fast enough to run the Pinball Construction Set and connect to a BBS at 4800 baud.  Computers in 1992 were already more than fast enough for writing term papers and maybe sending an email.  Computers in 2000 were already more than fast enough to surf the net.  Computers in 2012 are already more than fast enough to watch full-screen video.  Because that's what "computers are for."

What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus.  Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.


The difference is that the last 10 years has seen a qualitative change in processor technology. Individual processors are not getting significantly faster they way they used to (because of the power wall), so as long as you don't need more than two or four cores, there's no reason to believe that the desktop PC processors of 2023 will offer anything substantially better than the desktop processors of 2013.

It's also getting harder and harder to justify more cores. Home users just don't need that much parallelism relative to how fast their sequential processors are.
 
2013-03-05 03:32:07 PM  
I gotta buy a new laptop to play SimCity.  I'm way out of the PC gaming racket.
 
2013-03-05 03:32:14 PM  

whistleridge: "...would a  paradigm-shatteringdevice like  Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet..."

Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.


I like to refer to it as 'sh*t slate'.
 
2013-03-05 03:35:13 PM  
The only reason I'm looking to upgrade my home computer is the fact that it has a 4GB RAM limit, and after I get enough tabs going on Chrome it swaps something awful.

I'd stay on the same hardware indefinitely if I could soup it up to 32GB RAM. My next compy will have that much, and I'll probably use a good portion of it just for everyday stuff.
 
2013-03-05 03:35:30 PM  

tricycleracer: I gotta buy a new laptop to play SimCity.  I'm way out of the PC gaming racket.


Had the same though. I'll try running it on my Macbook Pro, hopefully that'll be good enough.
 
2013-03-05 03:35:49 PM  

MaxxLarge: Which is part of the reason I've always stuck to consoles. I don't like having to wade through endless system requirements, wondering if my system can handle a game every time I want to play something. I just want to drop it in, and know it's going to work. Yes, graphics are important, but the incremental differences don't (to ME, at least) justify expensive quarterly upgrades. A new $300 graphics card just to make the textures 3% smoother? That's a choice I don't see a lot of point in making.


See, other people don't like being tied down to consoles. I don't want to buy a console and fined out that I can't play the newest game because my 2 year old console already has a fancier version out. With a tower, you add some RAM or get a better video card(System requirements aren't exactly a mystery). With a console, if it don't got it, you can't play it. Period.

It's about as bad as being sucked into the AppleVerse.
 
2013-03-05 03:42:33 PM  

Mikey1969: See, other people don't like being tied down to consoles. I don't want to buy a console and fined out that I can't play the newest game because my 2 year old console already has a fancier version out. With a tower, you add some RAM or get a better video card(System requirements aren't exactly a mystery). With a console, if it don't got it, you can't play it. Period.


Yeah but the PS3 and XBox 360 are like a decade old and still the standard.
 
2013-03-05 03:47:20 PM  

RockofAges: Patriot Pyro 120 GB SSD (SSD is amazing, as storage sizes increase it will become the new standard for sure)


Just don't defrag it.

I know a guy who (for some dumb reason) had his system set up to defrag every few days. Doing that on an SSD kills it relatively fast.
 
2013-03-05 03:49:39 PM  
Built a top-of-the-line rig in 2007 for about $3000 bucks. Still runs any game I get today on the highest graphics. Why buy a new computer when this one will last me probably a good four or five more years?
 
2013-03-05 03:51:19 PM  

Mugato: Mikey1969: See, other people don't like being tied down to consoles. I don't want to buy a console and fined out that I can't play the newest game because my 2 year old console already has a fancier version out. With a tower, you add some RAM or get a better video card(System requirements aren't exactly a mystery). With a console, if it don't got it, you can't play it. Period.

Yeah but the PS3 and XBox 360 are like a decade old and still the standard.


Decade=10 years

PS3  Launch 2006
XBox 360 Launch 2005
Newest Xbox will not play "used" games.
Playstation saw the backlash on that and stepped back before making the same stupid mistake.

On my PC, I can play the original Doom, I can run a Mame Emulator and play the original arcade version of Pac Man, or I can play FarCry 3, as well as anything in between.
 
2013-03-05 03:51:59 PM  

Mikey1969: I don't want to buy a console and fined out that I can't play the newest game because my 2 year old console already has a fancier version out.


What console maker to puts all that time and money into development and production and then kicks it to the curb only 2 years later? Each of the major console manufacturers (Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft) has at least twice that amount of time between console releases, and usually more. I can understand not wanting to be tied to a console, but the changeover isn't anywhere near that often. Also, if you buy a game for a console that you don't own, that's pretty much on you.

Nintendo: 1985, 1990, 1996, 2001, 2006, 2012
Playstation: 1994, 2000, 2006, 2013
XBox: 2001, 2005, 2013
 
2013-03-05 03:52:16 PM  
The PC I built 2 yrs ago runs as super fast as it did when I first built it. Startup has about 100 processes, boots up in 30 secs or so.

I use my machine for a whole bunch of things, run multiple VMs.Transcode & rip media (DVDs & Blu-rays). Run photoshop, some basic video rendering (Liteworks, Sony Vegas), play games at ultra settings (BF3, Crysis 1 & 2, havent played 3 yet)

My coworker folded and went ahead and upgraded his computer to something similar as mine after I told him I was playing Bad Company 2 on one monitor on mute, playing an episode of Breaking Bad on the other monitor, transcoding a batch of videos in HD in the background. Did all of this without the game or episode flinching or slowing down at any point.

The past 2 years I've had my machine I can do all the above tasks mentioned with ridiculous speed and ease.I have no idea how long my setup is to last but my gut tells me I don't need to upgrade for at least another 4 years minimum. My setup wasnt even the fastest or greatest at the time I built.

/I guess CSB
//No idea why I'm rambling
 
2013-03-05 03:52:42 PM  

RockofAges: Also, a perfectly fine graphics card can be had nowadays for ~100 to ~150 depending on if you wait for a good deal. It's obvious when people quote these numbers that they've not been buying PC components recently. My $100 Geforce GTX 550 Ti will blow whatever the 360 is putting out right now (and I love the 360), and I have no idea how it would stack up against what they're putting in the "next gen" consoles but I would bet that even if the new consoles GPU is great, it's not that much better than my $100 card.


Yep, bought my video card last Spring, and I can't remember the model right now, but it's a beast and cost me around $140 or so. Let me pump up Skyrim from 'medium" video settings to "Ultra" setting...
 
2013-03-05 03:55:22 PM  

Xcott: [notthisagain.jpg]

People have been trotting out this theory at least as far back as the 1980s:  the computer market is about to slow down, or it is slowing down, because last year's computers are already more than fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

Every time the economy goes kaput, no matter how obvious the reason why---a tech bubble, a mortgage crisis, an Asian market crisis---some fool manages to get on CNBC and explain the real reason tech stocks are down: because the PC market is finally saturated, because last year's computers are officially fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

And it's true:  computers in 1984 were already more than fast enough to run the Pinball Construction Set and connect to a BBS at 4800 baud.  Computers in 1992 were already more than fast enough for writing term papers and maybe sending an email.  Computers in 2000 were already more than fast enough to surf the net.  Computers in 2012 are already more than fast enough to watch full-screen video.  Because that's what "computers are for."

What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus.  Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.


Throughout the 80's and 90's, computers were doubling in processing power every 18 months or so.  So by the time your PC was 5 years old, the new ones were 10 times as fast as yours, making yours hopelessly obsolete.  Everyone had to keep upgrading.  This is no longer true.  If your computer is 60% as fast as the new ones 5 years from now, it will still work just fine.  The exponential increase in computing power was a hell of a ride, but it's over.
 
2013-03-05 03:56:37 PM  
I only replace parts...I can't think of the last time I ever bought an entire box at once.
 
2013-03-05 03:57:26 PM  

qorkfiend: Mikey1969: I don't want to buy a console and fined out that I can't play the newest game because my 2 year old console already has a fancier version out.

What console maker to puts all that time and money into development and production and then kicks it to the curb only 2 years later? Each of the major console manufacturers (Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft) has at least twice that amount of time between console releases, and usually more. I can understand not wanting to be tied to a console, but the changeover isn't anywhere near that often. Also, if you buy a game for a console that you don't own, that's pretty much on you.

Nintendo: 1985, 1990, 1996, 2001, 2006, 2012
Playstation: 1994, 2000, 2006, 2013
XBox: 2001, 2005, 2013


And not everyone bought that NES in 1985, some bought them in '88 or '89. Some people will have just bought a 360, and the new one will be out this year, same with the PS3. My point is that with a console, you run a risk of having a pile of games that are completely useless on the newest system, whereas a PC is almost always a video card away...
 
2013-03-05 03:58:05 PM  
As long as Team Fortress 2 runs fine on my 13" Core i3 laptop, I see no need to waste $$ keeping up with the Joneses.
 
2013-03-05 04:01:33 PM  
Weird, I just bought a brand new Personal Computer myself.  I was somewhat out of the game, but I managed to find a blazing new system that runs Aliens: Colonial Marines flawlessly.  Best game and best $2500 I've spent in years.
 
2013-03-05 04:02:15 PM  
The system I buy/build for everyone else is around $300.  Usually a quad-core with 4GB of RAM and Windows 7.  It's more than adequate to run MS-Office/Libra-Office and a web browser which is what most people I know do.

My system on the other hand, is ridiculous.  I have an insane amount of storage (8TB NAS, 3TB RAID, 9TB additional), a 128GB SSD drive (boot/game partitions) 16 GB of memory (I run VMware Workstation and multiple VMs for testing), and a nVidia GTX 570.  I stream movies from my NAS (over 700), play games (BF3), and test virtualizing/templating different OSs (makes me look like a genius when I get to work and I'm already familiar with a new version of RHEL, MS Server, or some other linux version).
 
2013-03-05 04:04:22 PM  

Mikey1969: Decade=10 years


Ok, 8 years instead of 10 years, excuse me all to hell. Still not the 2 years you were talking about.
 
2013-03-05 04:04:38 PM  

FuturePastNow: My dad surfs the internet, writes emails, and plays Solitaire.

His computer has a Core 2 Duo E6300. I know that eventually, the hardware will fail in a way that can't be easily fixed, either from capacitor aging, a power surge, or whatever. But it's not getting replaced short of that ultimate failure. He'll never need more CPU power.


If he ever does need an upgrade used Core 2 CPUs are plentiful and cheap on eBay.  I picked up a Core 2 Quad "Extreme" for my old system & it runs like a champ @ 3.6GHz.  That would be overkill for your Dad but the options are certainly there.
 
2013-03-05 04:04:45 PM  

Endive Wombat: Mugato: Slives: People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.

Unless you're talking about Macs. I use Macs at work but that's work. From what I understand it, it's difficult if not impossible to upgrade a Mac and the Apple store doesn't take trade ins. But like I said, that's not my problem.

And the newest MBPs with retina display cant upgrade their RAM.  You are stuck with a max of 8GB IIRC.


Big farking deal.  As if 8gb is a limitation to anything but huge full scale animation production at Pixar...
 
2013-03-05 04:06:39 PM  
My $239 Acer laptop is still going strong. Why should I shell out several hundred dollars just to have the new computer lock-up and die doing things that my laptop can handle.

The reason why I bought my laptop is my desktop just stopped completely. Unplug, plug, push, poke, unplug, change battery, kick, scream, turn on, turn off, turn on...

About a year after I bought my laptop I reached over and pushed the power button on my long-abandoned, dusty old desktop. Thing spun right up. Turned it into my Porno Deluxe Coup de Ville.
 
2013-03-05 04:09:08 PM  

jigger: RockofAges: Patriot Pyro 120 GB SSD (SSD is amazing, as storage sizes increase it will become the new standard for sure)

Just don't defrag it.

I know a guy who (for some dumb reason) had his system set up to defrag every few days. Doing that on an SSD kills it relatively fast.


You really have to work at doing that kind of damage.  I have a couple of systems with SSDs, and Windows has automatically disabled the ability to run defrag on those drives every time.  Even if you did manage to get it to run, I'm not sure how much damage it's really doing.  The wear-leveling on those things is pretty effective.  There have been several attempts by reviewers to kill SSDs by writing them to death, and they seem far more resilient than people give them credit for.
 
2013-03-05 04:11:50 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.


Revit is driven by the CPU.  The video card only helps moving around the model.

/Revit needs more pylons
 
2013-03-05 04:12:36 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: jonny_q: whistleridge: Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.

I agree with you, but I recently saw the reddit thread where the dude from Penny Arcade reviewed one. You would be surprised how many people in that thread had no idea that the Surface Pro had a Wacom (or whatever) stylus input. Microsoft is doing a shiatty job marketing that thing when it could be seen as much more. They're advertising it like a more expensive alternative to an iPad, when in realize it's a less expensive / more capable alternative to a Macbook Air.

I was excited about the Surface before it came out, really wanted to love it.  I'd just bought a Windows 8 Phone, and was planning on getting the Surface RT to go along as a general purpose tablet, but the poor screen quality just killed it for me and I ended up getting an iPad instead.

Thinking about the Surface tablets more as general purpose computers (I guess especially the Pro version) instead of tablets might make them make more sense, but if I want a portable general purpose computer I'm not going to be satisfied with the tiny screen size or resolution on either of the Surface models (then again, I'm mystified by the popularity of the MacBook Air, seems too small to actually get any work done).  If I'm going to buy a laptop, I want a 17" 2560x1600 screen, quad core i7, at least 8 gigs of RAM, a SSD + spinning hard drive for bulk storage and a blu-ray/DVD/CD burner all built in.  Of course, no one makes that, and I don't really need a laptop anyway...


Re: Surface 
My IT architect buddy was just telling me he uses his Surface Pro as his only device these days (external monitor and BT keyboard).  Uses it literally for everything, server maintenance, product demos to clients, everything.  When I picked one up for the first time last weekend, it felt a lot like using Splashtop Streamer on my Android tablet, only without the lag.  I think this device fills a distinct productivity void, but it's no iPad killer.  iPads are toys, not productivity tools. Blackberry made its name by establishing a device for productivity in a market filled with toys, and it held on until the toys got smart enough they could do real work.

Re: Desktops
I just rebuilt my HTPC/main home machine in 2011, did an SSD upgrade last year, and that's all I've got planned for this machine.  Once I move, I'll design a new system to run the whole house, establish user libraries on NAS and create a custom slipstream install of Win 7 to set up all the machines in the house with a single, standardized system.  Since I'm going from a single PC environment (tiny apartment) to 3 story house with 4 people living in it (and I want it to feel like the Enterprise D when you interact with the system), I'll be adding truly new machines, not just replacing existing ones, but those machines don't require any serious power.  Just a gigabit network and loads of NAS space, toss in a couple of Leaps and Xboxes, create a few custom speech macros and decent mics and if you can set up the accounts right, everything runs itself.
 
2013-03-05 04:17:08 PM  
Slives: Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.

My personal laptop is a core 2 duo from about 4-5 years ago, it outperforms the crappy HP i7 that I use at work (mostly because it's not bogged down with a bunch of crap like the work machine is).

I maxed out the RAM on it, and threw in a SSD and that breathed new life into it.

On the desktop front though, I can't get my hands on enough reasonably priced hard disks.

// need to build a raid box now, storing photographs in RAW chews up a lot of space. I can come back with 16 gigs of photos from a single trip.
 
2013-03-05 04:18:16 PM  

MaxxLarge: I'm seeing a lot of people who are (correctly and pragmatically) referring to what people "need" to run games.

But mod-heads don't think in terms of need. They get what they WANT. Overclocked this, multi-core that, water-cooled the other thing. If there's a doohickey they can slap into their towers that'll theoretically let them squeeze out an incremental performance boost, they'll pay hundreds for it. And I'm not down for that.

Which is part of the reason I've always stuck to consoles. I don't like having to wade through endless system requirements, wondering if my system can handle a game every time I want to play something. I just want to drop it in, and know it's going to work. Yes, graphics are important, but the incremental differences don't (to ME, at least) justify expensive quarterly upgrades. A new $300 graphics card just to make the textures 3% smoother? That's a choice I don't see a lot of point in making.

Well, that, and I grew up with a controller in my hand. So I like being able to sit on the couch and use an interface ergonomically designed to play games, instead of cramping my hands up using devices meant to move cursors and enter text, but that have been reverse-engineered to be sufficient.

/yeah, i sound fat


So you prefer consoles because "mod-heads" choose to create problems on PC that you acknowledge aren't a necessary part of the experience and have nothing to do with running games?

Any system built in the past five years can handle any game available today.  No "expensive quarterly upgrades" are necessary.  Also, what does "make textures 3% smoother" mean?  3% of what?

Oh, and the 360 controller is plug and play with Windows.

Look, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but you're just  making stuff up.  I game waay more than I should on PC and consoles both; there are too many people on both sides that feel the need to prevaricate to support their position.
 
2013-03-05 04:19:21 PM  
roflmaonow:
//No idea why I'm rambling

Because building your own rig is an intensely personal and satisfying experience.  Mine is geared towards my budget ($600 + salvaged parts from "Jarvis 1.0") and moderate home use (I can do anything I want, and most things at the same time, just not super duper heavy lifting at the same time), but I love it.  Put it into a wooden case that looks like an old school radio, since it lives in the living room and everyone sees it.  As much as I'd love to build a decade-proof machine, I just don't see the need to overbuild it that much right now.  Once I get J3.0 going, I might try to make one machine the "main brain" to handle home automation and clock the hell out of it to allow for performance like yours.

FTR, what's your hardware breakdown?  I'd like to beef up my transcoding speed and general multitasking ability and it's nice to talk to someone who isn't one of the supernerds over at Tom's Hardware.
 
2013-03-05 04:25:18 PM  

Mikey1969: wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]

Yeah, because nobody knows how to install an OS on their computer. That's why PC sales crashed when both ME and Vista surfaced, right?


It's because no one wants the new OS until it's had it's first service pack applied in the factory.
 
2013-03-05 04:28:56 PM  

Xcott: [notthisagain.jpg]

People have been trotting out this theory at least as far back as the 1980s:  the computer market is about to slow down, or it is slowing down, because last year's computers are already more than fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

Every time the economy goes kaput, no matter how obvious the reason why---a tech bubble, a mortgage crisis, an Asian market crisis---some fool manages to get on CNBC and explain the real reason tech stocks are down: because the PC market is finally saturated, because last year's computers are officially fast enough to do all the things computers are for.

And it's true:  computers in 1984 were already more than fast enough to run the Pinball Construction Set and connect to a BBS at 4800 baud.  Computers in 1992 were already more than fast enough for writing term papers and maybe sending an email.  Computers in 2000 were already more than fast enough to surf the net.  Computers in 2012 are already more than fast enough to watch full-screen video.  Because that's what "computers are for."

What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus.  Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.


It really depends on what you use your computer for. If you're going to play the latest game with complex graphics against other players online, you might need the latest computer, but if you're just going to create documents in a word processor and check e-mail and post on Fark and play Zork you could probably do just fine with a TRS-80 or an Apple ][.

When I think back 10 or even 15 years ago, I realize that 90% of what I do now I could have done - and actually did do - with my old HP-Pavilion....don't even remember what processor it had.
 
2013-03-05 04:29:13 PM  
I've been saying this for the last 2 years... so meh...

My 3 year old "beast" is a quad with 8GB, which at the time,nothing came close to it...

A few months ago, I decided to do a major cleanup, as I was having trouble with the graphic card (which fried a few days later) and got a SSD for it...

That brought my machine to the same speed of my newer machine (at work) which is a i7 (3rd gen.) using a regular HD.

So... anyone that is running Vista or Win 7 that believe that their machine is getting slow ?...

Get a SSD, install the OS and software (and nothing else!) on it and get a second drive (or use the old drive) for the documents/files, you'll thanks me.
 
2013-03-05 04:29:28 PM  

Mugato: Mikey1969: Decade=10 years

Ok, 8 years instead of 10 years, excuse me all to hell. Still not the 2 years you were talking about.


Because people only buy the console the first day it is released.
 
2013-03-05 04:30:40 PM  

wildcardjack: Mikey1969: wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]

Yeah, because nobody knows how to install an OS on their computer. That's why PC sales crashed when both ME and Vista surfaced, right?

It's because no one wants the new OS until it's had it's first service pack applied in the factory.


I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...
 
2013-03-05 04:32:46 PM  

imfallen_angel: I've been saying this for the last 2 years... so meh...

My 3 year old "beast" is a quad with 8GB, which at the time,nothing came close to it...

A few months ago, I decided to do a major cleanup, as I was having trouble with the graphic card (which fried a few days later) and got a SSD for it...

That brought my machine to the same speed of my newer machine (at work) which is a i7 (3rd gen.) using a regular HD.

So... anyone that is running Vista or Win 7 that believe that their machine is getting slow ?...

Get a SSD, install the OS and software (and nothing else!) on it and get a second drive (or use the old drive) for the documents/files, you'll thanks me.


3 drives is the magic number, IMHO.

1 for the OS

1 for scratch disk/downloads/music/pics

1 for application installs

Actually been trying to build something like this for a long time, but it's only been in the last 4-5 years when hard drives got so cheap that it would fit my budget. Added bonus: 10,000 rpm Velocirator drives. :-)
 
2013-03-05 04:33:39 PM  

Mikey1969: wildcardjack: Mikey1969: wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]

Yeah, because nobody knows how to install an OS on their computer. That's why PC sales crashed when both ME and Vista surfaced, right?

It's because no one wants the new OS until it's had it's first service pack applied in the factory.

I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...


I don't even know if 7 can be legitimately called a "hit"; Vista had set the bar pretty damn low.
 
2013-03-05 04:33:57 PM  

Mikey1969: wildcardjack: Mikey1969: wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]

Yeah, because nobody knows how to install an OS on their computer. That's why PC sales crashed when both ME and Vista surfaced, right?

It's because no one wants the new OS until it's had it's first service pack applied in the factory.

I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...


I just got the Mrs. a new Win8 touch screen laptop (her 6 yr old MacBook died and she switched, also ditched her iPhon 4 for an SIII) and we love it.  It's hard to navigate at first, but I think it's solid, and you can always get back to the Win7 desktop.  I think the rollout was much better than it was for Vista, in large part because they didn't dick around with Office file extensions (remember having to get the docx patch?).  I don't think 8 will be remembered as harshly as Vista.  And 7 is a treat to begin with.
 
2013-03-05 04:34:06 PM  

Mikey1969: 3 drives is the magic number, IMHO.


I can't read this without hearing School House Rock.
 
2013-03-05 04:34:49 PM  

Mikey1969: OceanVortex: whistleridge: "...would a  paradigm-shatteringdevice like  Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet..."

Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.

This

I alomost bought it over the Transformer Infinity I just bought. Surface gets pretty good reviews, but the Infinity still edged it out, and I don't like the flat keys on the keyboard. All in all though, it's a tablet with a few new innovations that nobody else has. No, not "paradigm shattering", but at least worth a little bit of respect.

Although, as I said justa few minutes ago, we wouldn't know this from the farking ads they choose to air. Those things are about as useless as tits on a fish.


Fish don't lactate so tits wouldn't be very use....ohhhh.... i see...
 
2013-03-05 04:35:57 PM  

lordargent: Slives: Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.

My personal laptop is a core 2 duo from about 4-5 years ago, it outperforms the crappy HP i7 that I use at work (mostly because it's not bogged down with a bunch of crap like the work machine is).

I maxed out the RAM on it, and threw in a SSD and that breathed new life into it.

On the desktop front though, I can't get my hands on enough reasonably priced hard disks.

// need to build a raid box now, storing photographs in RAW chews up a lot of space. I can come back with 16 gigs of photos from a single trip.


Here's a suggestion

Here's others if you want smaller/cheaper...


Build it up as you go and need more space..

I have four of the 4 bays (non-Raid as I prefer the drives to be single and simple to switch out if needed) older model and I can't say enough good about them... for 2-3 years now and they have been 100% reliable.
 
2013-03-05 04:36:55 PM  

Mikey1969: qorkfiend: Mikey1969: I don't want to buy a console and fined out that I can't play the newest game because my 2 year old console already has a fancier version out.

What console maker to puts all that time and money into development and production and then kicks it to the curb only 2 years later? Each of the major console manufacturers (Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft) has at least twice that amount of time between console releases, and usually more. I can understand not wanting to be tied to a console, but the changeover isn't anywhere near that often. Also, if you buy a game for a console that you don't own, that's pretty much on you.

Nintendo: 1985, 1990, 1996, 2001, 2006, 2012
Playstation: 1994, 2000, 2006, 2013
XBox: 2001, 2005, 2013

And not everyone bought that NES in 1985, some bought them in '88 or '89. Some people will have just bought a 360, and the new one will be out this year, same with the PS3. My point is that with a console, you run a risk of having a pile of games that are completely useless on the newest system, whereas a PC is almost always a video card away...


Even after the new console is out they keep making a lot of games on the old one. I can only speak of PlayStation because that's what I've been using since PSOne but they just stopped making PS2 this year. Games for PS2 have been released even in 2013. Sure, not the latest games but the less taxing games and that's 13 years after launch. I doubt Sony will stop making PS3 for at least 3-4 years and most games (except the huge blockbusters) will be made on both the PS3 and the PS4.

In college and shortly after I was all about PC gaming but for the past 5 years I've been 100% console player. I doubt I'll ever go back to PC but I don't think that I'm missing out on a lot by playing only on console. I do miss some of the mods I could do to games on the PC but even that is not enough to make me miss it.
 
2013-03-05 04:37:37 PM  
A new computer that's good is over $1000.
Everyone already has one with great software.
They usually last 7-10 years, easy.


Of COURSE sales "growth" is going to peter out. You don't buy what you already have, especially not for $1000.
 
2013-03-05 04:38:15 PM  
I am hoping to build a new computer this year so.....

The 6 year old GPU is getting to the point where I cannot play new games at little more than low end specs and the motherboard is using an old standard for GPU interface (PCIe 1.1) so I can upgrade but it is like slapping graphics on a Civic.  Oh well the old gal has been good for me but she aint cutting it.  Outside of gaming the rig is more than enough to do what I want on it.
 
2013-03-05 04:38:25 PM  

imfallen_angel: Get a SSD, install the OS and software (and nothing else!) on it and get a second drive (or use the old drive) for the documents/files, you'll thanks me.


I did a piss poor job of cloning my HDD to my SSD, and I don't feel like I'm getting the startup or program-opening speeds I should.  I should just blast the damn thing and reinstall 7 but I REEEEEALLY don't want to reinstall all of everything else I rely on (Unlocker, Chrome + plugins, Audacity, BT Guard, etc.), nor do I want to go to the trouble of creating a slipstream install with all that when I intend to do that heavy lifting for my overhaul in 6 months.  Got any thoughts on how to do this on the easy?
 
2013-03-05 04:41:33 PM  
I have a 3-year-old 27" iMac, and it does everything I need it to do. Which basically amounts to a few excel spreadsheets and word documents and a bunch of web surfing. I used to play WoW on it, but that's pretty much the extent of my computer gaming (more because of time constraints than because Macs have a shiatty game library).

/look at me
//look at me and laugh
 
2013-03-05 04:41:50 PM  

Mikey1969: imfallen_angel: I've been saying this for the last 2 years... so meh...

My 3 year old "beast" is a quad with 8GB, which at the time,nothing came close to it...

A few months ago, I decided to do a major cleanup, as I was having trouble with the graphic card (which fried a few days later) and got a SSD for it...

That brought my machine to the same speed of my newer machine (at work) which is a i7 (3rd gen.) using a regular HD.

So... anyone that is running Vista or Win 7 that believe that their machine is getting slow ?...

Get a SSD, install the OS and software (and nothing else!) on it and get a second drive (or use the old drive) for the documents/files, you'll thanks me.

3 drives is the magic number, IMHO.

1 for the OS

1 for scratch disk/downloads/music/pics

1 for application installs

Actually been trying to build something like this for a long time, but it's only been in the last 4-5 years when hard drives got so cheap that it would fit my budget. Added bonus: 10,000 rpm Velocirator drives. :-)


Actually my "beast" has 4 internal hot-swap drives...

1- the SSD (128GB): OS and software
2- the files drive (640GB): all documents, pictures, home movies, music
3- the work horse(640GB): the drive that I drop everything on to work with, videos, audio, images, etc.
4- the backup (2TB): backs up (live) the files drive, and everything else I feel like I need to have a backup of.

Then I have an external 1TB (2.5) to be my grab and rush backup of the files drive.

And then I have two 4-bays filled with 2TB drives for my video collection (16TB) and have a duplicate array for a backup (so another 16TB).

And then I use the 500GB drives on my other machine (the living room media player dedicated machine) as another backup for my pictures and music.

And... well, enough said.... tee hee.
 
2013-03-05 04:48:53 PM  

TelemonianAjax: imfallen_angel: Get a SSD, install the OS and software (and nothing else!) on it and get a second drive (or use the old drive) for the documents/files, you'll thanks me.

I did a piss poor job of cloning my HDD to my SSD, and I don't feel like I'm getting the startup or program-opening speeds I should.  I should just blast the damn thing and reinstall 7 but I REEEEEALLY don't want to reinstall all of everything else I rely on (Unlocker, Chrome + plugins, Audacity, BT Guard, etc.), nor do I want to go to the trouble of creating a slipstream install with all that when I intend to do that heavy lifting for my overhaul in 6 months.  Got any thoughts on how to do this on the easy?


Sadly,

I've learned that cloning can be as much trouble if not more than a clean install, so I've given up on doing them... one small parameter off, a forgotten upgrade/update, a solar flare and something just doesn't work "right"... I've already tried 3-4 different cloning/ghosting software... and none have impressed me all that much.

I just load all my software on a jumpdrive (rip all CDs/DVDs) and just go one after another...

Takes me a few hours... about the same as a cloning restore would.

The worse part is making sure that you saved all your set-up files, bookmarks, etc.

And going from one type of drive to another HD to SSD, odds are since the drives have different sectors, it probably gave you trouble.  Cloning/ghosting works best when you use an exact same drive.

Some software have gotten better, but ...
 
2013-03-05 04:50:30 PM  
From a gaming perspective I think right now is not a good time to buy a PC. I think after the next gen consoles come out, a moderately priced PC will last to the end of that cycle (which is probably 8+ years) and always run the newest games at the highest settings (relative to the consoles they are made for). If you buy one now with the expectations of it lasting 8 years, you'll have to check the graphics options for every game you play to tweak it to run smoothly and live with an experience that the developers did not envision.
 
2013-03-05 04:51:32 PM  

TelemonianAjax: roflmaonow:
//No idea why I'm rambling

Because building your own rig is an intensely personal and satisfying experience.  Mine is geared towards my budget ($600 + salvaged parts from "Jarvis 1.0") and moderate home use (I can do anything I want, and most things at the same time, just not super duper heavy lifting at the same time), but I love it.  Put it into a wooden case that looks like an old school radio, since it lives in the living room and everyone sees it.  As much as I'd love to build a decade-proof machine, I just don't see the need to overbuild it that much right now.  Once I get J3.0 going, I might try to make one machine the "main brain" to handle home automation and clock the hell out of it to allow for performance like yours.

FTR, what's your hardware breakdown?  I'd like to beef up my transcoding speed and general multitasking ability and it's nice to talk to someone who isn't one of the supernerds over at Tom's Hardware.


Getting the best Transcoding speed is a challenge on its own. I've read a lot about it and it's probably going to involve some level of trial and error. But I believe you should be able to get quite good speed if you're using any of the newest intel CPUs (Either Sandy or Ivy bridge) with one of the newer motherboards that are out there (Z77 chipset or Z68 even)

Full disclosure on my system though is that it initially cost $550 to be in good use but to get where I am now I upgraded and spent around $400 more. Still those are not super necessary. The base system should be fine.

Well if you want my super nerd setup,  brace yourself.

Intel i5 2500k Sandy Bridge CPU 3.3 Ghz (Currently OC'd to 4.2 Ghz)
Cooler Master Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler
ASUS P8P67 Pro 3.0 LGA 1155 Intel P67 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
16GB DDR3 1333 RAM Dual Channel
650W ATX 12V power supply
XFX ZDFC Radeon HD 6870 1 GB DDR3  Video card
128 GB Crucial M4 SATA III (500 MB/s read speed)
23" ASUS 1080p HD 2ms LCD Monitor (1920 x 1080)
27" Planar 1080p HD 2ms LCD Monitor (1920 x 1080)
4 TB drives (2TB x 2)
Cooler Master Sniper case
Blu-Ray Writer
DVD Writer
Windows 7 64 bit
 
2013-03-05 04:53:17 PM  
This thread is like a modern day auto shop atmosphere for geeks...love it!

While I have you experts in such matters here, do you have any opinions on the new Chromebooks? I need a new laptop, all I use it for is web surfing pretty much. I like the concept of the SSID.
 
2013-03-05 04:54:34 PM  

Elemental79: From a gaming perspective I think right now is not a good time to buy a PC. I think after the next gen consoles come out, a moderately priced PC will last to the end of that cycle (which is probably 8+ years) and always run the newest games at the highest settings (relative to the consoles they are made for). If you buy one now with the expectations of it lasting 8 years, you'll have to check the graphics options for every game you play to tweak it to run smoothly and live with an experience that the developers did not envision.


I just want to play the new SimCity and read Fark.  Trying to hunt down a surplus Win7 laptop that meets SimCity specs.  The toughest part is the finding right version of Intel integrated video.
 
2013-03-05 04:54:39 PM  

Mikey1969: 1 for application installs


Forgot to mention... all applications: have them ripped to a folder on your main drive (with backup) BUT for the actual install... get a fast jumpdrive (with plenty of space) and use that for the installs.

My jumpdrive right now is an Adata USB 3.0 64GB... read >80MBs /write >70MBs

It kicks serious arse.

Had a Corsair that was as fast (and smaller), but it's been 2 high speed Corsair jumpdrives that died on me, I'm done with them... their replacement on on my desk and used only on occasion, never to be left in my pocket like the aData is.
 
2013-03-05 04:55:31 PM  
I don't get the whole tablet killed the PC thing. I'd still take a desktop over a tablet or laptop any day
 
2013-03-05 04:56:58 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: There have been several attempts by reviewers to kill SSDs by writing them to death, and they seem far more resilient than people give them credit for.


Most of them are, however, very sensitive to power faults.

[...]
In this paper, we propose a new methodology to expose reliability issues in block devices under power faults. Our framework includes specially-designed hardware to inject power faults directly to devices, workloads to stress storage components, and techniques to detect various types of failures. Applying our testing framework, we test fifteen commodity SSDs from five different vendors using more than three thousand fault injection cycles in total. Our experimental results reveal that thirteen out of the fifteen tested SSD devices exhibit surprising failure behaviors under power faults, including bit corruption, shorn writes, unserializable writes, metadata corruption, and total device failure.
 
2013-03-05 04:57:20 PM  

roflmaonow: Cooler Master Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler


SMACK!!!

Liquid cooling system is where it's at.

Anything less is .......

/Hide your shame!
 
2013-03-05 05:01:22 PM  

imfallen_angel: roflmaonow: Cooler Master Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler

SMACK!!!

Liquid cooling system is where it's at.

Anything less is .......

/Hide your shame!


Yea true, I should upgrade to a liquid cooling system. I am deathly afraid of leaks and do not want it to fry my system. I know it's rare but still haven't come round to buying it. I am however a bit disappointed with the 212+, I probably need to reseat my fan since I don't get the super cooling it promises over air cooling. I noticed only a 2-3 degree difference.
 
2013-03-05 05:01:31 PM  
VUDU's law:
/and I been playing with computers since 1969...

YOU FARKERS OUT THERE ARE DOING IT WRONG1!!!
YOU AREN'T MAKING THE CONNECTIVITY EASY ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE AND YOU AREN'T MAKING THEM HUMANELY AFFORDABLE. YOU NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX. YOU NEED TO FIGURE OUT ORGANIC PROGRAMMING, AND LEARN HOW TO MELD BOTH WORLDS.
FRIKKING FREE DATA IS FASTER THAN DATA I OWN AND KEEP ON SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVER FOR A FARKING FEE??? WHAT THE FARK IS THAT ALL ABOUT?!?1!
WHERE IS MY FARKING FLYING CAR, WRIST TV THAT ALSO OPENES MY GOD DAMNED GARAGE DOOR AND STARTS MY FARKING CAR AND CHECKS MY BLOOD PRESSURE!?!?

And it's running high.

More's farking law, indeed.
Jesus. Did someone find their old three ring loose-leaf in mom's attic?
Get back to work,and stop writing pinhead articles in a sad attempt to play human engineer.
 
2013-03-05 05:01:53 PM  

Optimus Primate: This thread is like a modern day auto shop atmosphere for geeks...love it!

While I have you experts in such matters here, do you have any opinions on the new Chromebooks? I need a new laptop, all I use it for is web surfing pretty much. I like the concept of the SSID.


For just web surfing, you can't go wrong with a Chromebook.
 
2013-03-05 05:02:37 PM  

skullkrusher: I don't get the whole tablet killed the PC thing. I'd still take a desktop over a tablet or laptop any day


They just aren't the same thing at all.

My desktop is still my machine for everything, but my tablet, for looking things up, surfing Fark while in from of the TV, a few games, as my music player (via Bluetooth stereo headset), etc. has been a HUGE asset.

I honestly would not want to be without a tablet now.

It's the in-between my phone and the desktop, and I never expected to use it as much, to enjoy it as much....

It's more portable than a laptop and with a decent Bluetooth keyboard, I can use it to type notes during meetings, etc. Show pictures, etc.

And I've now set it up to remote access my desktops and it's been a Godsend.
 
2013-03-05 05:02:48 PM  

vudukungfu: VUDU's law:
/and I been playing with computers since 1969...

YOU FARKERS OUT THERE ARE DOING IT WRONG1!!!
YOU AREN'T MAKING THE CONNECTIVITY EASY ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE AND YOU AREN'T MAKING THEM HUMANELY AFFORDABLE. YOU NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX. YOU NEED TO FIGURE OUT ORGANIC PROGRAMMING, AND LEARN HOW TO MELD BOTH WORLDS.
FRIKKING FREE DATA IS FASTER THAN DATA I OWN AND KEEP ON SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVER FOR A FARKING FEE??? WHAT THE FARK IS THAT ALL ABOUT?!?1!
WHERE IS MY FARKING FLYING CAR, WRIST TV THAT ALSO OPENES MY GOD DAMNED GARAGE DOOR AND STARTS MY FARKING CAR AND CHECKS MY BLOOD PRESSURE!?!?

And it's running high.

More's farking law, indeed.
Jesus. Did someone find their old three ring loose-leaf in mom's attic?
Get back to work,and stop writing pinhead articles in a sad attempt to play human engineer.


You need to get your caps lock fixed.
 
2013-03-05 05:05:50 PM  
imfallen_angel : Here's a suggestion

I'm building my own box, I think I can come in at around the price point of one of the premade RAID enclosures, with the added benefit of my box actually being a full machine (so that I can run a streaming/encoding server on it as well and maybe some content management stuff.

I'm going to borrow heavily from the build my friend made (he used the Lian Li Q25 case).

Similar to this
 
2013-03-05 05:06:36 PM  

roflmaonow: imfallen_angel: roflmaonow: Cooler Master Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler

SMACK!!!

Liquid cooling system is where it's at.

Anything less is .......

/Hide your shame!

Yea true, I should upgrade to a liquid cooling system. I am deathly afraid of leaks and do not want it to fry my system. I know it's rare but still haven't come round to buying it. I am however a bit disappointed with the 212+, I probably need to reseat my fan since I don't get the super cooling it promises over air cooling. I noticed only a 2-3 degree difference.


I've yet to hear of a single system leaking...

Mine's been going for 2-3 years now (and my machine is on 24/7), and it's been flawless..

Just don't go too cheap I guess...

But one of these is much quieter, and really helps the internal heat... just have a secondary fan for the other components.  I've "modded" my box by adding an extra fan on the side, but that's because of the computer being in a bit of a tight space and the video card tended to get hot as it's fan wasn't strong enough..
 
2013-03-05 05:10:46 PM  

lordargent: imfallen_angel : Here's a suggestion

I'm building my own box, I think I can come in at around the price point of one of the premade RAID enclosures, with the added benefit of my box actually being a full machine (so that I can run a streaming/encoding server on it as well and maybe some content management stuff.

I'm going to borrow heavily from the build my friend made (he used the Lian Li Q25 case).

Similar to this


Cool..

The one thing I'd say is that the biggest problem with such a box will be access to the drives (if one blows), and size... and the MediaSonic boxes are 1/4 of the price of anything else I've seen.

I tend to want my devices separated in case if one thing blows, the other can keep going and the blows part just needs to be switched.  The whole having all your eggs in the same basket scenario that I'm too paranoid to risk.
 
2013-03-05 05:12:00 PM  
Only a year and half ago did I get rid of the computer I'd had since 2002. Granted, I'd replaced everything in it at least once, save for its boot drive and its copy of Windows XP. It finally had to go. So I built a new one, installed Linux. It's nothing to make the geeks wet, but it does the trick. Also, I've not used a video card for years and years. Not being a gamer goes a long ways in making a PC last with a minimum of upgrades or replacements.
 
2013-03-05 05:12:57 PM  

imfallen_angel: roflmaonow: imfallen_angel: roflmaonow: Cooler Master Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler

SMACK!!!

Liquid cooling system is where it's at.

Anything less is .......

/Hide your shame!

Yea true, I should upgrade to a liquid cooling system. I am deathly afraid of leaks and do not want it to fry my system. I know it's rare but still haven't come round to buying it. I am however a bit disappointed with the 212+, I probably need to reseat my fan since I don't get the super cooling it promises over air cooling. I noticed only a 2-3 degree difference.

I've yet to hear of a single system leaking...

Mine's been going for 2-3 years now (and my machine is on 24/7), and it's been flawless..

Just don't go too cheap I guess...

But one of these is much quieter, and really helps the internal heat... just have a secondary fan for the other components.  I've "modded" my box by adding an extra fan on the side, but that's because of the computer being in a bit of a tight space and the video card tended to get hot as it's fan wasn't strong enough..


I believe it was H60 series that many complained of leaks. Heck my coworker had one leak and fried his system. I won't go cheap as my setup should tell you. Just been lazy to get round to it.
 
2013-03-05 05:12:58 PM  

Fubini: Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.


I'll vouch for that.  In fact, I have something on par with them that I put together for around $500, hooked to my TV running Steam in Big Picture Mode.
 
2013-03-05 05:14:37 PM  

enry: DamnYankees: That article seem to say the opposite - Moore's law is no longer holding. If processing power is only improving 10% per year, then the law has been broken.

Moore's law doesn't talk about processing power, only number of affordable transistors in a given space. These days, it means increasing the number of cores rather than going to 4Ghz. Most desktops don't need 6 or 8 cores.

Aside from migrating to an SSD and adding a second monitor, I haven't upgraded my main system in probably 3 years and don't really see a need to.


My desktop was purchased in late 2006/early 2007 and my laptop was purchased in late 2009/early 2010. Neither one is due to be replaced anytime soon.
 
2013-03-05 05:15:07 PM  

TelemonianAjax: I just got the Mrs. a new Win8 touch screen laptop (her 6 yr old MacBook died and she switched, also ditched her iPhon 4 for an SIII) and we love it.  It's hard to navigate at first, but I think it's solid, and you can always get back to the Win7 desktop.


From a mobile device perspective, I hear a lot of good things about 8. From a desktop perspective, this is the second job where the IT director said that I was more than welcome to install it and test it(Work IT myself), but they would recommend that I don't even bother. MS and Apple are making the same mistake and thinking that we all want some kind of unified OS for both tablets/phones and laptops/desktops. We do different things, and for the most part want different functionality.
 
2013-03-05 05:15:14 PM  
I still use my 15 year old Dell desktop for gaming and it works perfectly.

I'd explain more, but right now I'm in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
 
2013-03-05 05:15:21 PM  
Yay another PC thread :)  My opinion:  Power vs need reached a comfy peak right around the Pentium 4s broke the 3Ghz barrier and 2-4GB of memory became common, since then its just been niche purposes and power users that continue to drive upwards.

roflmaonow: Well if you want my super nerd setup, brace yourself.

Intel i5 2500k Sandy Bridge CPU 3.3 Ghz (Currently OC'd to 4.2 Ghz)
Cooler Master Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler
ASUS P8P67 Pro 3.0 LGA 1155 Intel P67 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
16GB DDR3 1333 RAM Dual Channel
650W ATX 12V power supply
XFX ZDFC Radeon HD 6870 1 GB DDR3 Video card
128 GB Crucial M4 SATA III (500 MB/s read speed)
23" ASUS 1080p HD 2ms LCD Monitor (1920 x 1080)
27" Planar 1080p HD 2ms LCD Monitor (1920 x 1080)
4 TB drives (2TB x 2)
Cooler Master Sniper case
Blu-Ray Writer
DVD Writer


weknowmemes.com
My Gaming desktop is:
2600K OC'ed to 4.8Ghz on air
3x GTX580 3GB vram editions
2x Vertex4 256GB SSDs in Raid0 (OS, apps and ripping drive), 2x 1TB black drives in raid1 (local storage drive for not pr0n)
3x Asus 24" 1080p monitors that can pivot (gaming at 5760x1080 or 3240x1920 depending on best aspect ratio for the game)
16GB of corsair somethingorother standard issue 1600Mhz ram
Asus WS Revolution motherboard (quad PCIE ports and a number of other ridiculous stats)
1200w corsair PSU
NZXT Phantom case in black
Random other crap like a bluray drive and peripherals

What I regret though:  A month after I bought those video cards the damned 7970s came out, a month and I even knew about that too.  Doh!
 
2013-03-05 05:15:26 PM  

imfallen_angel: skullkrusher: I don't get the whole tablet killed the PC thing. I'd still take a desktop over a tablet or laptop any day

They just aren't the same thing at all.

My desktop is still my machine for everything, but my tablet, for looking things up, surfing Fark while in from of the TV, a few games, as my music player (via Bluetooth stereo headset), etc. has been a HUGE asset.

I honestly would not want to be without a tablet now.

It's the in-between my phone and the desktop, and I never expected to use it as much, to enjoy it as much....

It's more portable than a laptop and with a decent Bluetooth keyboard, I can use it to type notes during meetings, etc. Show pictures, etc.

And I've now set it up to remote access my desktops and it's been a Godsend.


I haven't replaced (the fried backlight and subsequent cracked touch interface on) my broken Asus TF101 tablet yet because I realized I only used it for websurfing and reading comics, and much more for reading comics.  I can't justify spending that much money on something just to read comics.  However, every single day I wish I had it because it fills a void I didn't know was there until it was filled.  And then emptied again.

/Great, now I'm the one that's rambling.
//CSB: when my mom finally forced me to take my long boxes from her house, I found an old notebook of min where I sketched up the idea of digital comics back in 1995.  It was a combination of a DS and a Kindle.  Could've made millions!
 
2013-03-05 05:15:56 PM  

imfallen_angel: Actually my "beast" has 4 internal hot-swap drives...

1- the SSD (128GB): OS and software
2- the files drive (640GB): all documents, pictures, home movies, music
3- the work horse(640GB): the drive that I drop everything on to work with, videos, audio, images, etc.
4- the backup (2TB): backs up (live) the files drive, and everything else I feel like I need to have a backup of.

Then I have an external 1TB (2.5) to be my grab and rush backup of the files drive.

And then I have two 4-bays filled with 2TB drives for my video collection (16TB) and have a duplicate array for a backup (so another 16TB).

And then I use the 500GB drives on my other machine (the living room media player dedicated machine) as another backup for my pictures and music.

And... well, enough said.... tee hee.


Wow, that's not a complicated set up at ALL...  ;-)
 
2013-03-05 05:17:01 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Fubini: Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.

I'll vouch for that.  In fact, I have something on par with them that I put together for around $500, hooked to my TV running Steam in Big Picture Mode.


I think from what I read the specs even though on paper will match any current $500 market desktop, the PS4 is highly optimized for graphic computation. That in itself wont compare with the two side by side.
 
2013-03-05 05:18:13 PM  
imfallen_angel : The one thing I'd say is that the biggest problem with such a box will be access to the drives (if one blows), and size

It's a 5 bay and Lian Li cases are tool less.

// also, if a power supply or mobo or something dies, I can replace just that part as well. Building it myself just gives me a lot more control over it.
 
2013-03-05 05:18:38 PM  
Btw for off the shelf liquid cooling:  Check out the last Tom's hardware roundup of those, they used a Noctua HD-D14 block heatsink as a control against the liquid lineup and it trashed them, embarassed them on every single front.  It was hilarious, there's a reason that heatsink has gone up in price since its introduction to market and everything else has paled.
 
2013-03-05 05:19:27 PM  

Mikey1969: TelemonianAjax: I just got the Mrs. a new Win8 touch screen laptop (her 6 yr old MacBook died and she switched, also ditched her iPhon 4 for an SIII) and we love it.  It's hard to navigate at first, but I think it's solid, and you can always get back to the Win7 desktop.

From a mobile device perspective, I hear a lot of good things about 8. From a desktop perspective, this is the second job where the IT director said that I was more than welcome to install it and test it(Work IT myself), but they would recommend that I don't even bother. MS and Apple are making the same mistake and thinking that we all want some kind of unified OS for both tablets/phones and laptops/desktops. We do different things, and for the most part want different functionality.


I like having different interfaces that use my screen size appriopriately, but want something that can talk to other devices smoothly and (most importantly) natively, since I'm interested in "Enterprising" my house.  I'd be really curious to try out a Win 8 desktop, laptop and Win phone, just to see what kind of interactivity I could make.  But without a test rig at the moment, I don't want to go farking with Jarvis 2.0, because when it goes down, my kids turn to me and just stare until I go fix it.  I agree the desktop 8 could get very annoying.

I work for a (small) state agency, and we're the only one in the whole state that is all Windows 7.  Makes my job much easier, and makes my counterparts in Corrections and Transportation very jealous.
 
2013-03-05 05:20:06 PM  
BumpInTheNight:
[weknowmemes.com image 240x180]

THIS
 
2013-03-05 05:22:37 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Yay another PC thread :)  My opinion:  Power vs need reached a comfy peak right around the Pentium 4s broke the 3Ghz barrier and 2-4GB of memory became common, since then its just been niche purposes and power users that continue to drive upwards.

My Gaming desktop is:
2600K OC'ed to 4.8Ghz on air
3x GTX580 3GB vram editions
2x Vertex4 256GB SSDs in Raid0 (OS, apps and ripping drive), 2x 1TB black drives in raid1 (local storage drive for not pr0n)
3x Asus 24" 1080p monitors that can pivot (gaming at 5760x1080 or 3240x1920 depending on best aspect ratio for the game)
16GB of corsair somethingorother standard issue 1600Mhz ram
Asus WS Revolution motherboard (quad PCIE ports and a number of other ridiculous stats)
1200w corsair PSU
NZXT Phantom case in black
Random other crap like a bluray drive and peripherals

What I regret though:  A month after I bought those video cards the damned 7970s came out, a month and I even knew about that too.  Doh!


Thats an awesome setup. I think the 580s should be good enough. Yikes you've got 3 of them. I'm not there yet. Also sweet triple monitor setup.
 
2013-03-05 05:24:39 PM  

imfallen_angel: skullkrusher: I don't get the whole tablet killed the PC thing. I'd still take a desktop over a tablet or laptop any day

They just aren't the same thing at all.

My desktop is still my machine for everything, but my tablet, for looking things up, surfing Fark while in from of the TV, a few games, as my music player (via Bluetooth stereo headset), etc. has been a HUGE asset.

I honestly would not want to be without a tablet now.

It's the in-between my phone and the desktop, and I never expected to use it as much, to enjoy it as much....

It's more portable than a laptop and with a decent Bluetooth keyboard, I can use it to type notes during meetings, etc. Show pictures, etc.

And I've now set it up to remote access my desktops and it's been a Godsend.


right, that's what I mean. People have been calling tablets a replacement for PCs for a while now. I just don't see it. I guess for more casual users, a tablet might serve the same purpose and that could be the reason but given the choice to even surf the web on a PC or a tablet, I'd pick the PC every time
 
2013-03-05 05:24:41 PM  
PC sale's are down because apple makes better games

Angry birds star wars is the best

What game on the pc can you totally annihilate everything on the screen

What game on the pc can you descent into the enemy planet and blow things up with your missiles

What game on the pc can you shock the system of the enemy

PC has no games

- posted from my iPhone
 
2013-03-05 05:24:46 PM  

MaxxLarge: 3%


MaxxLarge: I'm seeing a lot of people who are (correctly and pragmatically) referring to what people "need" to run games.

But mod-heads don't think in terms of need. They get what they WANT. Overclocked this, multi-core that, water-cooled the other thing. If there's a doohickey they can slap into their towers that'll theoretically let them squeeze out an incremental performance boost, they'll pay hundreds for it. And I'm not down for that.

Which is part of the reason I've always stuck to consoles. I don't like having to wade through endless system requirements, wondering if my system can handle a game every time I want to play something. I just want to drop it in, and know it's going to work. Yes, graphics are important, but the incremental differences don't (to ME, at least) justify expensive quarterly upgrades. A new $300 graphics card just to make the textures 3% smoother? That's a choice I don't see a lot of point in making.

Well, that, and I grew up with a controller in my hand. So I like being able to sit on the couch and use an interface ergonomically designed to play games, instead of cramping my hands up using devices meant to move cursors and enter text, but that have been reverse-engineered to be sufficient.

/yeah, i sound fat


On the flip side: You spend $60 each game (because you don't have Steam sales =P) on a game that, in 5-10 years will likely not run on newer hardware.  If your console fails and the manufacturer isn't making them anymore, your $60 * (10 to 40 games) investment goes flying out the window.

For me, I rest assured in the knowledge that the games I buy now will generally continue to run well or better on future generations of hardware.  I still have SimTower (for Win3.11) running perfectly fine!  If *I* decide to go back to a retro game, that's *MY* choice.  Fairly sure some of the DOS games still work too =P

Incidentally, I just click "autodetect settings" (most games do this on first run anyway, so no intervention on my part needed) on all of my games and the game magically tailors it's own performance to any of my rigs.  If I want to sacrifice smoothness for a little extra quality or add even more smoothness for a little less quality, I have that choice too.

I've only recently run into performance problems with my 8+ year old AGP based rig with the more recent games, but I see this as an advantage.  A game like Guild Wars 2 runs okay on my rig as long as things don't get too hectic (and for some reason loses some frames when I turn, but running forward is fine), which means I can play without buying a new rig if this is acceptable for me.

If you were on a console, try putting a new generation game in an older generation.  Good luck in trying to get it to run.
 
2013-03-05 05:30:45 PM  

roflmaonow: Thats an awesome setup. I think the 580s should be good enough. Yikes you've got 3 of them. I'm not there yet. Also sweet triple monitor setup.


Yah the SLI goes hand in hand with multi-monitor, on a single monitor a single high-end card is usually more then enough (crysis series aside) but when you start pushing into the 4+MP display size range the raw power of multi-card gets useful, the vram on those cards becomes way more important too since its gotta hold way more info per card per frame.
 
2013-03-05 05:36:25 PM  

TelemonianAjax: I work for a (small) state agency, and we're the only one in the whole state that is all Windows 7.  Makes my job much easier, and makes my counterparts in Corrections and Transportation very jealous.


Hell, XP is even still useful. I actually downgraded a laptop from 7 to XP because it was too slow. They could have skipped 8 entirely and spent another year or two on the development, and probably made more people happy. Don't know why they didn't seem to learn from their Windows 7 Beta test and rollout.

With the exception of them doing stupid stuff like renaming 'Add/Remove Programs' for some stupid reason, 7 has been nothing but solid though.
 
2013-03-05 05:37:19 PM  

imfallen_angel: Mikey1969: 1 for application installs

Forgot to mention... all applications: have them ripped to a folder on your main drive (with backup) BUT for the actual install... get a fast jumpdrive (with plenty of space) and use that for the installs.

My jumpdrive right now is an Adata USB 3.0 64GB... read >80MBs /write >70MBs

It kicks serious arse.

Had a Corsair that was as fast (and smaller), but it's been 2 high speed Corsair jumpdrives that died on me, I'm done with them... their replacement on on my desk and used only on occasion, never to be left in my pocket like the aData is.


Hmmmm, I might just try that out. It would be awesome to have stuff like games set up like that.
 
2013-03-05 05:37:55 PM  

Mikey1969: Wow, that's not a complicated set up at ALL... ;-)


nope, not one bit... the fact that I was up to 9 computers, 5 smartphones, 3 tablets, 2 printers for my home system... I tend to enjoy the dropping of jaws when people walk into my office.

I only wish my house was bigger to have a bigger office and add more monitors... right now I'm stuck with a single 22inch.
/I'm evil that way.
 
2013-03-05 05:38:34 PM  

Mugato: Xcott: What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus. Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.

Right but there has to be some diminishing returns limit at some point. Like what is the most intensive thing most non-gamers do with their machines? Download or stream movies I suppose. Your off the shelf PC can do that well. So what's next? What more is the average user going to do? Because unless some kid is going to create SkyNet on his laptop, I don't know what more the average user is going to expect to do with their machine.


You can stream movies using a $35 Raspberry Pi. Works just find.
 
2013-03-05 05:40:36 PM  
My 2007 imac is still going strong, and the new non-user expandable memory, no optical drive, underspec video (512 meg in 2013 really?) imacs aren't anything that I would even consider buying. i'm satisfied w/my console for games in lieu of a higher-spec mac. so i'm not planning to upgrade anything until something dies or hardware speed just becomes unbearable.

/well, unless I decide to build a small form-factor pc as a console replacement/steambox.
 
2013-03-05 05:43:01 PM  

SleepingEye: because you don't have Steam sales =P


I love Steam... Sure, maybe someday the company will disappear, but I'll have played the Hell out of my games by then, and when I can buy the entire GTA series(Minus the newest) for something like $20, it lets me build an actual library of games, no media and no serials to lose, and I only have to install what I want at that time on that particular machine. Yeah, those sales rock.
 
2013-03-05 05:43:31 PM  
Long as I can still play Duke Nukem on my PC, I'm good.
 
2013-03-05 05:44:58 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Mugato: Xcott: What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus. Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.

Right but there has to be some diminishing returns limit at some point. Like what is the most intensive thing most non-gamers do with their machines? Download or stream movies I suppose. Your off the shelf PC can do that well. So what's next? What more is the average user going to do? Because unless some kid is going to create SkyNet on his laptop, I don't know what more the average user is going to expect to do with their machine.

You can stream movies using a $35 Raspberry Pi. Works just find.


How do you browse the files?  Is there a fancy metadata view, or is it a bare bones file browser?  I'm a weirdo, but I really, really like the Windows Media Center interface for watching movies and TV.  I use the MediaBrowser plugin and it's great, been using it for 6 years now.  I'm building my whole house system around WMC, since XBoxes are the only extenders that can give you the WMC experience and they tie everything else together personally.
 
2013-03-05 05:45:45 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Btw for off the shelf liquid cooling:  Check out the last Tom's hardware roundup of those, they used a Noctua HD-D14 block heatsink as a control against the liquid lineup and it trashed them, embarassed them on every single front.  It was hilarious, there's a reason that heatsink has gone up in price since its introduction to market and everything else has paled.


Part of the reason I switched to liquid is because my last heatsink was about that big. It will warp your motherboard over time, because gravity.

I'm all in favor of getting my CPU temps down, but I'd rather not have a mobo snap in half.
 
2013-03-05 05:45:47 PM  

imfallen_angel: Mikey1969: Wow, that's not a complicated set up at ALL... ;-)

nope, not one bit... the fact that I was up to 9 computers, 5 smartphones, 3 tablets, 2 printers for my home system... I tend to enjoy the dropping of jaws when people walk into my office.

I only wish my house was bigger to have a bigger office and add more monitors... right now I'm stuck with a single 22inch.
/I'm evil that way.


LOL... I won't have THAT complicated of a setup, but I'm damn jealous.
 
2013-03-05 05:47:32 PM  
One thing that has changed is the PC/laptop market has probably lost a lot of "status buyers" - those people who buy the newest fastest PC/laptop not because they need the power but just to display it as a status symbol.

My impression is that status buyers have switched to tablets and phones because they are really the new thing.

Sure there are still gamers but PC/laptop buyers have become more rational.

Just think what would happen to the new car market if status buyers switched to hovercraft.
 
2013-03-05 05:52:13 PM  
We have some 3d animators at work that use well spec'd workstations to do their work. In 2008 we got them 8 core Xeon systems with 48 gb ram and nice 2g Quadro cards. Late last year we pick up a new 24 core system with 128 gb ram and 6 gb Quadro. On average, the new system is 10% faster. Mind you that cuts a few hours off of a several day render, but still, for $23k, I was hoping for more.
 
2013-03-05 05:53:16 PM  

imfallen_angel: Mikey1969: Wow, that's not a complicated set up at ALL... ;-)

nope, not one bit... the fact that I was up to 9 computers, 5 smartphones, 3 tablets, 2 printers for my home system... I tend to enjoy the dropping of jaws when people walk into my office.

I only wish my house was bigger to have a bigger office and add more monitors... right now I'm stuck with a single 22inch.
/I'm evil that way.


My show off dream:  I can't wait until the 60" TV goes up and I can have my wall o' monitor.  Also, I want to be able to initiate a Red Alert command that commandeers all screens in the house and plays the klaxon and displays an image, locking the house down, and initiating a security monitoring screen on the main computer.  In the realm of pure fun, I like the idea of launching a quad copter that can use GPS to patrol the outside of the house and stream it back to the security screen, but it's hard to figure out a way it could be both protected from the elements and launchable without me opening a window.

Why, yes, I did conceive of this during the darkest of dark days with the ex wife.  Prof. X had the Magneto Protocols, I have the Ex Protocols.  This is just the hilarious terminus of what I do for personal security already when it comes to crack head succubi.
 
2013-03-05 05:53:18 PM  

MrEricSir: Part of the reason I switched to liquid is because my last heatsink was about that big. It will warp your motherboard over time, because gravity.

I'm all in favor of getting my CPU temps down, but I'd rather not have a mobo snap in half.


I read into that and to summarize what I'd found:  Part urban legend, part inexperienced power builders who also carts their machine to a lot of lan parties with the tower standing upright as they bomb down a rickety road.

/I did at one point consider using a string to anchor the HS to the top of the case but never got around to it
//I might if I ever actually brought this case anywhere
 
2013-03-05 05:55:42 PM  

clambam: I use my three year old machine for CAD drafting, 3D modeling, rendering and animation (using AutoCAD 11, Sketchup, Kerkythea and VideoMach respectively). Frankly, I'm embarrassed at how quickly I can churn out a 20 second flyby animation--I used to charge for "unattended computer time" back when an animation might take 50 hours to generate; now it takes two. I have no need, or plans, to upgrade any time soon. I certainly don't want to see my software/freeware investment disappear down the black hole of Windows 8.


Well, I have a pretty fast 1 year old system and recently spent over 12 hours rendering a 5 second animation (in multiple passes) in 3ds max. I definitely welcome hardware upgrades.
 
2013-03-05 06:00:16 PM  

Surly U. Jest: We have some 3d animators at work that use well spec'd workstations to do their work. In 2008 we got them 8 core Xeon systems with 48 gb ram and nice 2g Quadro cards. Late last year we pick up a new 24 core system with 128 gb ram and 6 gb Quadro. On average, the new system is 10% faster. Mind you that cuts a few hours off of a several day render, but still, for $23k, I was hoping for more.


Or this, which I didn't see until refreshing after my Weeners. Computers are fast enough for the average user but we could still be doing better. 3D rendering is still slow as hell, especially now with HD being the norm.
 
2013-03-05 06:04:53 PM  

roflmaonow: HeartBurnKid: Fubini: Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.

I'll vouch for that.  In fact, I have something on par with them that I put together for around $500, hooked to my TV running Steam in Big Picture Mode.

I think from what I read the specs even though on paper will match any current $500 market desktop, the PS4 is highly optimized for graphic computation. That in itself wont compare with the two side by side.


Doubtful.  It's not just the specs that compare; it's literally the exact same hardware.  It's an AMD Trinity chip with a few more GPU cores.
 
2013-03-05 06:11:19 PM  
My computer setup:
Black laptop
Power cord
Mouse
Lots of shame and self loathing
 
2013-03-05 06:11:38 PM  
I work for Intel, so I got a kick out of some of these replies.

/works on Ivy Bridge/Haswell manufacturing
 
2013-03-05 06:13:16 PM  

Mugato: Xcott: What I find amazing about this theory is how much sense it makes, and how easily people believe it, when all you have to do is think back 10 years to see why it's bogus. Every generation uses computers for something completely different, and far more compute-intensive.

Right but there has to be some diminishing returns limit at some point.


No, there doesn't.  There are physical reasons why we may have diminishing returns in computing capability, but there's no physical reason why we'll run out of things to do with that power, when it arrives.

Like what is the most intensive thing most non-gamers do with their machines? Download or stream movies I suppose. Your off the shelf PC can do that well. So what's next? What more is the average user going to do?

I don't want to sound snide, but this is the same question people asked in the early 1990s, and the mid 1980s.  If you think about it, I'm sure you can come up with a lot of next-generation uses for a tenfold increase in computer power.  Instead of watching video, for example, how about real-time video generation/rerendering, or analysis?  How about pressing a button to auto-translate a TV show to Portuguese, auto-dub the voices, and auto-lip-synch the speakers a la Star Trek?  How about moving from static video to interactive video, combining video textures with CGI and physical modeling?  How about a UI with a reliable natural speech interface, or a UI that performs constant behavioral analysis?

Even if you only ever want to do exactly what you do today, a tenfold speed increase will let a CPU achieve the same result in emulation, allowing added OS features like time reversal, or malware detection by analyzing all the system calls performed by the OS and application software.
 
2013-03-05 06:17:30 PM  

Slives: TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.

Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.


It depends on what you're doing with the computer

content creation of some sort, ie 3d modeling, 3d  cad, cae, rendering whatever still probably needs to update every 2-3 or more frequently
 
2013-03-05 06:19:00 PM  

TelemonianAjax: Since I'm going from a single PC environment (tiny apartment) to 3 story house with 4 people living in it (and I want it to feel like the Enterprise D when you interact with the system), I'll be adding truly new machines, not just replacing existing ones, but those machines don't require any serious power. Just a gigabit network and loads of NAS space,


I like this concept. One central computer to handle all the heavy lifting, and a few terminals that aren't as "smart", where the end users interact with the system. It's brilliant, and forward-looking. (I actually do like your concept, BTW. Just being snarky about how the "outdated" dumb terminal model is starting to come back into vogue. A few years down the road, the concept of putting computing power back in the hands of the client will probably be the hot trend.)

Also, Subby here. Glad y'all seem to have found TFA interesting.
 
2013-03-05 06:19:36 PM  

jonny_q: whistleridge: Uh...I would call the Surface Pro many things, but "paradigm shattering" wouldn't be on the list. Ever.

I agree with you, but I recently saw the reddit thread where the dude from Penny Arcade reviewed one. You would be surprised how many people in that thread had no idea that the Surface Pro had a Wacom (or whatever) stylus input. Microsoft is doing a shiatty job marketing that thing when it could be seen as much more. They're advertising it like a more expensive alternative to an iPad, when in realize it's a less expensive / more capable alternative to a Macbook Air.


shiat, so it's cheaper then a cintiq

I really want one now
 
2013-03-05 06:21:30 PM  

clambam: Oops, AutoCAD 2011, not AutoCAD 11. Big difference.


I was wondering how you kept the floppies working for so long...../
 
2013-03-05 06:23:11 PM  
I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times, the power supply twice, a couple of hard drives. Got a fancy new Logitech keyboard and mouse a year or two back. The case is starting to show its age so I might change that out soonish. I'll probably keep this machine forever. Like my daddy's axe. Replaced the handle twice and one new head, but it chops like a brand new axe.

I can't wait until they release the new consoles so computer games can advance a bit again. Cross-platform releases are holding games back so much. The new Tomb Raider supposedly does hair really well, now if they can just make water flow realistically, and THEN stall progress so that Joe Schmoe can buy an Xbox every 10 years and play every game that comes out.

I'd probably divest myself of Nvidia/ATI/Intel/AMD stock pretty soon after the next generation comes out. Things are already stagnating, and it's only going to get worse.

/We've reached peak computing!
//What we won't ever reach is peak information storage*, so maybe hold onto Intel stock if they start getting super serial about their drives

*Unless we take a book from the giant floating brains and destroy, or organize, a large part of the universe
 
2013-03-05 06:23:14 PM  

jetzzfan: I work for Intel, so I got a kick out of some of these replies.

/works on Ivy Bridge/Haswell manufacturing


Did you also work on the Wolfdale and/or Sandybridge lines?  Because those were just off the hook impressive.  I try to skip a few generations between CPUs and had an AMD6000 but when people started posting the 4Ghz OCs with maintstream coolers on wolfdales I just couldn't ignore it.  Then when the sandybridges started posting 4.5+Ghz (as a quadcore!) it was another one of those 'well, lessie where my credit card is hiding...'.  The Ivybridge has a lot of neat features too but its over all just too similar to the Sandy for me to pull out the card again so soon.
 
kab
2013-03-05 06:24:54 PM  
The software that 99% of PC users will typically use has very low system requirements, so hardware has simply caught and passed it by a very large margin.   This goes for games as well, due to many games being developed for consoles first.

I'd say that unless you're doing absolutely bleeding edge tri-screen gaming, rendering 4k video, or intensive 3d (or audio) work, you probably aren't seeing a desperate need for new hardware if you've bought in the last 2-3 years..

/doing a few of those things
//considering a new build because of it
 
2013-03-05 06:25:03 PM  

jetzzfan: I work for Intel, so I got a kick out of some of these replies.

/works on Ivy Bridge/Haswell manufacturing


That's another problem with the "computers are already fast enough" argument:  there are hardware companies, like Intel, who will pour money into research to find cool new applications for more power.  I used to work for Intel's Microprocessor Research Lab, and our goal was to develop applications that used the extra power of the next generation of CPUs.  If users can't think of what to do with those extra cycles, someone will find an application for them.
 
2013-03-05 06:29:33 PM  
Orcs must die, civ 5, dota 2, wow, l4d2, and diablo 3 all run perfectly fine on my core 2 duo with 4gb of memory and gtx275... I have recently encountered planetside 2 being unplayable, but thats the first game ive been unable to play in 7 years (and frankly i dont think im missing much).

The tax money for the last 3 years has been slated for a techreport sweetspot build... But I keep not needing it. Maybe next year :)
 
2013-03-05 06:31:02 PM  

BumpInTheNight: jetzzfan: I work for Intel, so I got a kick out of some of these replies.

/works on Ivy Bridge/Haswell manufacturing

Did you also work on the Wolfdale and/or Sandybridge lines?  Because those were just off the hook impressive.  I try to skip a few generations between CPUs and had an AMD6000 but when people started posting the 4Ghz OCs with maintstream coolers on wolfdales I just couldn't ignore it.  Then when the sandybridges started posting 4.5+Ghz (as a quadcore!) it was another one of those 'well, lessie where my credit card is hiding...'.  The Ivybridge has a lot of neat features too but its over all just too similar to the Sandy for me to pull out the card again so soon.


Nope.

I just started 18 months ago. I help actually make the chips (shift process engineer). I'm not involved with design at all.
 
2013-03-05 06:37:25 PM  

HeartBurnKid: roflmaonow: HeartBurnKid: Fubini: Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.

I'll vouch for that.  In fact, I have something on par with them that I put together for around $500, hooked to my TV running Steam in Big Picture Mode.

I think from what I read the specs even though on paper will match any current $500 market desktop, the PS4 is highly optimized for graphic computation. That in itself wont compare with the two side by side.

Doubtful.  It's not just the specs that compare; it's literally the exact same hardware.  It's an AMD Trinity chip with a few more GPU cores.


Lost of good info on the specs here.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6770/sony-announces-playstation-4-pc-h ar dware-inside

I don't know how it compares to the other AMD CPUs on the market but it will be interesting to see how they perform.
 
2013-03-05 06:38:12 PM  

Xcott: jetzzfan: I work for Intel, so I got a kick out of some of these replies.

/works on Ivy Bridge/Haswell manufacturing

That's another problem with the "computers are already fast enough" argument:  there are hardware companies, like Intel, who will pour money into research to find cool new applications for more power.  I used to work for Intel's Microprocessor Research Lab, and our goal was to develop applications that used the extra power of the next generation of CPUs.  If users can't think of what to do with those extra cycles, someone will find an application for them.


What would that be?  I'm not seeing it right now.  There could very well be an extended period of "maturity" before the next thing is found.  Think of TVs limping along from the late 80s to early 2000s and then the big leap of the quality affordable flat screen.
 
2013-03-05 06:43:47 PM  
Another "Good Enough" user here; Core 2 Quad Q6600 running at 3.1. I only recently upgraded from an 8800Gt. $ GB of ram, still runs more than fine for any games I play or Music Produciton I do. Runs Win 7 like a peach.
 
2013-03-05 06:55:17 PM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times, the power supply twice, a couple of hard drives. Got a fancy new Logitech keyboard and mouse a year or two back. The case is starting to show its age so I might change that out soonish. I'll probably keep this machine forever. Like my daddy's axe. Replaced the handle twice and one new head, but it chops like a brand new axe.


So what you're saying is you've had several computers in the past few years, but you put them all in the same case so it's the same computer.

And keyboards/mice don't even have anything to do with it.

It's like saying I have a 12 year old car, but I've replaced the engine 3 times and gotten a new transmission and it performs great. I even replaced the stereo.

Heh - actually, my car is 12 years old. You know what? It still works. I never replaced the engine. I did replace an O2 sensor and the stereo doesn't work, but other than that it's practically brand new. Seriously, it is very good for a 12-year old car - and it is the same car I bought 12 years ago.

Okay, to be honest I have replaced the tires and the brakes and the battery and the oil has been changed quite a few times, but it actually is the same car.

The engine is the same. The transmission is the same. The radiator is the same. The A/C is the same. The body is the same. I should be hitting 80,000 miles soon. Yeah, low mileage for a 12 year old car, but it's still 12 years old.

You see what I'm getting at?
 
2013-03-05 07:02:14 PM  
This article focuses on mainstream web centric users but even gamer have seen a big leveling off in system requirements compared to earlier periods in PC history. I built and have been running an overclocked Core 2 Quad Q6600 since '07. I just blasted through Far Cry 3, a fairly modern demanding shooter, with no performance issues. By comparison try playing Quake 3 (late '99) on a computer that came out in 1994 or even '95.
 
2013-03-05 07:05:01 PM  
I'm having difficulty finding this information, so I will merely leave the question for others to answer.

I think the real metric may be to ask how many FLOPS a computer at some sort of metric (say the price of the 95th percentile of desktop PCs) can perform, and how that compares to the number of FLOPS a computer could perform the year prior.  I suspect that the rate of growth is trending down, but I have a hard time finding data to prove or disprove my suspicion.

I know that TOP500 is still growing pretty fast, but that's hardly indicative of the field as a whole.  Also I saw this guy in person

californiawives.files.wordpress.com

and he's pretty much just as crazy in person as in his books.
 
2013-03-05 07:05:06 PM  

ShawnDoc: With the launch of the new Playstation and X-Box, I think we'll see a lot of people upgrading their PCs.  Why?  Games have always been the big driver for upgrading the PC.  And almost all games made these days are built for the console first, and then ported to the PC.  Current console technology is so old (Skyrim uses DirectX 9), that its actually been holding back game devs on the PC side of things.  With new, higher powered consoles coming out, the PC versions will finally start requiring not just a new graphics card, but new PC architecture in order to keep up with console gaming.


Pretty much this.  I'm sitting here with an XBox 360 and a 6 year old iMac and really don't feel compelled to upgrade at all right now.
 
2013-03-05 07:17:07 PM  

Xcott: I don't want to sound snide, but this is the same question people asked in the early 1990s, and the mid 1980s. If you think about it, I'm sure you can come up with a lot of next-generation uses for a tenfold increase in computer power. Instead of watching video, for example, how about real-time video generation/rerendering, or analysis? How about pressing a button to auto-translate a TV show to Portuguese, auto-dub the voices, and auto-lip-synch the speakers a la Star Trek? How about moving from static video to interactive video, combining video textures with CGI and physical modeling? How about a UI with a reliable natural speech interface, or a UI that performs constant behavioral analysis?


Ok, I understand what you're saying and I know I sound like an old bastard (I'm 34, so I am an old bastard according to Fark) but I'm just talking about what the average user does on their computer. They use their internet connection, they play Angry Birds, they download movies and music, these things can all be accomplished with the hardware they currently have.

I'm not saying that there aren't more ambitious uses for a computer, I'm saying that as the capabilities of your standard PC get more impressive, the less there is a need to buy a new one or even upgrade it every 6 months like you used to. That's all I was saying,
 
2013-03-05 07:31:57 PM  

andrewagill: and he's pretty much just as crazy in person as in his books.


and listening to him speak on this is a real good way to be put to sleep
 
2013-03-05 07:32:56 PM  

TelemonianAjax: Mikey1969: wildcardjack: Mikey1969: wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]

Yeah, because nobody knows how to install an OS on their computer. That's why PC sales crashed when both ME and Vista surfaced, right?

It's because no one wants the new OS until it's had it's first service pack applied in the factory.

I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...

I just got the Mrs. a new Win8 touch screen laptop (her 6 yr old MacBook died and she switched, also ditched her iPhon 4 for an SIII) and we love it.  It's hard to navigate at first, but I think it's solid, and you can always get back to the Win7 desktop.  I think the rollout was much better than it was for Vista, in large part because they didn't dick around with Office file extensions (remember having to get the docx patch?).  I don't think 8 will be remembered as harshly as Vista.  And 7 is a treat to begin with.




Small touchscreen win8 laptops are awesome.
 
2013-03-05 07:35:52 PM  

Slives: TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.

Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.


Not just that. I have a five-year-old dual Optimas in an E-ATX box running Windows 8 64-bit and it's still a graphics tank. I don't do animation, that's why. Just add RAM.
 
2013-03-05 07:43:55 PM  
I have one of those Core 2 CPUs the article mentions from 2006.

A Q6600, with 8GB memory and a SSD drive. The only thing I see limiting it potentially is the amount of memory. 8GB is fine today, but is it fine 5 years from now?
 
2013-03-05 07:50:22 PM  
If it weren't for the lack of gaming, I'd have switched to Linux for everything- as it is I want to eventually invest in another SSD for my Desktop to install Linux on. My Laptop almost always uses Linux 24/7- unless I have to switch back to Windows for something (usually dealing with the horrible Respondus browser).

My Desktop has a Core i5 2500k- a two year old processor, an AMD Raedon 6950 1GB, and 16 GB of DDR 3 1600 RAM. I have one 128GB SSD, soon (hopefully) to have a second 128GB SSD. I built my machine back in December of 2011 and it's served me pretty well. Right now I'm holding off on upgrading of the major components. When the new line of AMD GPUs come out (hopefully soon...) I'll probably upgrade that, and I'll probably get a new case (I love my old case- it's an NZXT Lexa Blackline, but the new NZXT full towers are awesome), and probably get a new power supply. But I'll probably be using the same CPU. Indeed, I can always overclock to get a little bit more power if I needed to (and I might, though, not yet)

CPUs used to do most of the work. Now, in a Desktop environment, the GPU does most of the work for gaming. The CPU is just becoming a conductor. Think about it! Even the SSD has its own processor now.

Anyway, the only reason I might upgrade soon is because my machine can't run Crysis 3 or Planetside 2 on Ultra with fantastic FPS. And seriously, that's the only reason.
 
2013-03-05 07:51:03 PM  

Rockstone: though, not yet


Erm, not "though not yet", rather, I haven't done much overclocking. I will probably mess  around with it over the summer.
 
2013-03-05 07:53:20 PM  
Ooh, I'd like to point out that the Pentium III that sits in my room can still be used for many basic tasks. It's slow, yes, but not unbearably slow.
 
2013-03-05 07:56:00 PM  

Mugato: Xcott: I don't want to sound snide, but this is the same question people asked in the early 1990s, and the mid 1980s. If you think about it, I'm sure you can come up with a lot of next-generation uses for a tenfold increase in computer power. Instead of watching video, for example, how about real-time video generation/rerendering, or analysis? How about pressing a button to auto-translate a TV show to Portuguese, auto-dub the voices, and auto-lip-synch the speakers a la Star Trek? How about moving from static video to interactive video, combining video textures with CGI and physical modeling? How about a UI with a reliable natural speech interface, or a UI that performs constant behavioral analysis?

Ok, I understand what you're saying and I know I sound like an old bastard (I'm 34, so I am an old bastard according to Fark) but I'm just talking about what the average user does on their computer.


So am I.  I'm talking about what average people will be doing in 10 years.

Just look at what people do today.  Watching Hulu on a telephone?  Videochatting with friends and pressing a button to superimpose a fake monocle over your eye in real time?  That's what kids do when they're supposed to be working on a book report.  That would have sounded pretty SciFi in 1997, and we would be mistaken to attribute that kind of computer use to "high end" users with heavy iron.
 
2013-03-05 08:11:32 PM  
If I didn't spend most of my free time running rendering software, I wouldn't have upgraded my last main rig. Hell, even my secondary computer is more powerful than I actually need.
 
2013-03-05 08:12:08 PM  

Rockstone: If it weren't for the lack of gaming, I'd have switched to Linux for everything- as it is I want to eventually invest in another SSD for my Desktop to install Linux on. My Laptop almost always uses Linux 24/7- unless I have to switch back to Windows for something (usually dealing with the horrible Respondus browser).

My Desktop has a Core i5 2500k- a two year old processor, an AMD Raedon 6950 1GB, and 16 GB of DDR 3 1600 RAM. I have one 128GB SSD, soon (hopefully) to have a second 128GB SSD. I built my machine back in December of 2011 and it's served me pretty well. Right now I'm holding off on upgrading of the major components. When the new line of AMD GPUs come out (hopefully soon...) I'll probably upgrade that, and I'll probably get a new case (I love my old case- it's an NZXT Lexa Blackline, but the new NZXT full towers are awesome), and probably get a new power supply. But I'll probably be using the same CPU. Indeed, I can always overclock to get a little bit more power if I needed to (and I might, though, not yet)

CPUs used to do most of the work. Now, in a Desktop environment, the GPU does most of the work for gaming. The CPU is just becoming a conductor. Think about it! Even the SSD has its own processor now.

Anyway, the only reason I might upgrade soon is because my machine can't run Crysis 3 or Planetside 2 on Ultra with fantastic FPS. And seriously, that's the only reason.


I have very similar specs and wont upgrade for another 4-5 years. I do have the 6870 though. I was thinking of picking up another 6870 to crossfire if I do need more power for playing newer games. I do foresee a time where I might need to upgrade my video card to play new PC games at ultra settings in a year or so. I think like someone stated, once the new PS4 and xbox 720 come out the higher specs of those console will prompt game developers to make their games more demanding. For right now and my backlog of 60 steam games I think I should be set for another 3-4 years.
 
2013-03-05 08:46:14 PM  

Slives: TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.

Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.


I bought my wife a laptop 4 years ago.  Dual core with 2GB of RAM.  You can't tell any performance issues at all on it.  If the hardware holds there's no reason to believe she'll need a new one in the next 5 years.  All she does is do email, facebook and search the internet for articles about her work.  That's the first machine I could say that about.  There's zero noticeable different between the performance of that machine and a new one for those tasks.
 
2013-03-05 08:49:44 PM  

Slives: TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.

Agreed. A fairly high end computer from 4-6 years ago is still a pretty decent system and runs most of what even the average gamer needs just fine. People are far more likely to replace components in a system rather than do a full upgrade.



Yup and yup.  No need to replace a computer if your current one works fine and dandy.
 
2013-03-05 08:53:29 PM  

Mugato: Endive Wombat: Mugato: Slives: And I was pricing Macs but the guy at the Apple store said they don't take trade ins. I mean I'm sure you can unload them somehow but that seems like a lot of work.



I've sold three Macs and two iPhones on eBay without any problems whatsoever.  Great way to unload.
 
2013-03-05 08:59:00 PM  

Happy Hours: Eddie Ate Dynamite: I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times, the power supply twice, a couple of hard drives. Got a fancy new Logitech keyboard and mouse a year or two back. The case is starting to show its age so I might change that out soonish. I'll probably keep this machine forever. Like my daddy's axe. Replaced the handle twice and one new head, but it chops like a brand new axe.

So what you're saying is you've had several computers in the past few years, but you put them all in the same case so it's the same computer.

And keyboards/mice don't even have anything to do with it.

It's like saying I have a 12 year old car, but I've replaced the engine 3 times and gotten a new transmission and it performs great. I even replaced the stereo.

Heh - actually, my car is 12 years old. You know what? It still works. I never replaced the engine. I did replace an O2 sensor and the stereo doesn't work, but other than that it's practically brand new. Seriously, it is very good for a 12-year old car - and it is the same car I bought 12 years ago.

Okay, to be honest I have replaced the tires and the brakes and the battery and the oil has been changed quite a few times, but it actually is the same car.

The engine is the same. The transmission is the same. The radiator is the same. The A/C is the same. The body is the same. I should be hitting 80,000 miles soon. Yeah, low mileage for a 12 year old car, but it's still 12 years old.

You see what I'm getting at?


If he is going to go that route with replacing his pc one piece at a time, just ditch the case and make the new case anything you want.  It could be a well made wood box with brass touches, all plexiglass, aluminum tread plate for a tool box look or just attach all the pieces to a shelf on the desk where everything is accessible.  Personally I would either go with the wood box or tread plate, but I won't be able to do that.  A month ago, I let my wife talk me into going Mac.  I am loving this thing, got wireless keyboard and wireless magic touch pad.  For the homeschooling parents, Mac gives discounts.

Back to what I started on, I have a couple buddies who do special cases as part of their job.  They've done part plexiglass and special paint jobs for clients.  I would like to see more creative cases, you have to look at your desk it might as well be art in your eyes.
 
2013-03-05 09:14:34 PM  

loonatic112358: andrewagill: and he's pretty much just as crazy in person as in his books.

and listening to him speak on this is a real good way to be put to sleep


I dunno.  For me, it was pretty much an exercise in not shouting, "It's not an exponential curve, it's probably a sigmoid, you fark!"  Which kept me rather interested in the crap he was spewing.

/Actually, that was more my friend who came with me.
//I was more the ``That won't work.  The amount of time it would take to send signals between that many cores would destroy the coherence of the system'' type.
///Which is pretty much the carrying capacity argument that turns Moore's Law into a sigmoid, when you get down to it.
 
2013-03-05 09:15:12 PM  
Though I find it hilarious that both Nvidia and AMD have just said "F it.  We're not bringing out video cards until the new consoles come out and we get some games that can stress them."  We haven't had new high-end video cards since Q1 2012, and we're not getting them until Q4 2013.

/Well, other than Titan, which is an overpriced "halo" card for GPGPU people and small form factors.
 
2013-03-05 09:20:16 PM  

andrewagill: loonatic112358: andrewagill: and he's pretty much just as crazy in person as in his books.

and listening to him speak on this is a real good way to be put to sleep

I dunno.  For me, it was pretty much an exercise in not shouting, "It's not an exponential curve, it's probably a sigmoid, you fark!"  Which kept me rather interested in the crap he was spewing.

/Actually, that was more my friend who came with me.
//I was more the ``That won't work.  The amount of time it would take to send signals between that many cores would destroy the coherence of the system'' type.
///Which is pretty much the carrying capacity argument that turns Moore's Law into a sigmoid, when you get down to it.


Or in pictorial format

www.bio.georgiasouthern.edu
 
2013-03-05 09:20:49 PM  
It's a mature market now, those who want it, well the vast majority, have it. So that leaves sales to people replacing broken stuff and stuff they find too old. Of course given what the hardware can do plenty of people will hold there two or three year old stuff for a few more years as long as it doesn't break. It does what they want more than well enough so no point in upgrading. And no PC's aren't about to go away and they're not in trouble, they've just become a mature market, which after nearly 30 years you'd expect.
 
2013-03-05 09:32:07 PM  

Happy Hours: Eddie Ate Dynamite: I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times, the power supply twice, a couple of hard drives. Got a fancy new Logitech keyboard and mouse a year or two back. The case is starting to show its age so I might change that out soonish. I'll probably keep this machine forever. Like my daddy's axe. Replaced the handle twice and one new head, but it chops like a brand new axe.

So what you're saying is you've had several computers in the past few years, but you put them all in the same case so it's the same computer.

And keyboards/mice don't even have anything to do with it.

It's like saying I have a 12 year old car, but I've replaced the engine 3 times and gotten a new transmission and it performs great. I even replaced the stereo.

Heh - actually, my car is 12 years old. You know what? It still works. I never replaced the engine. I did replace an O2 sensor and the stereo doesn't work, but other than that it's practically brand new. Seriously, it is very good for a 12-year old car - and it is the same car I bought 12 years ago.

Okay, to be honest I have replaced the tires and the brakes and the battery and the oil has been changed quite a few times, but it actually is the same car.

The engine is the same. The transmission is the same. The radiator is the same. The A/C is the same. The body is the same. I should be hitting 80,000 miles soon. Yeah, low mileage for a 12 year old car, but it's still 12 years old.

You see what I'm getting at?


I think so. Basically we're both really awesome people who can keep things running forever? *brofist into an explosion*
 
2013-03-05 09:32:17 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me. I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.


But that is a typical user experience, and not indicative of a slowdown in the market.

Over the last 2 decades, I never switched up to a faster computer because I had to, or because my old computer was too slow.  My old computer was always plenty fast for what I do---the switch-up was always due to some other circumstance, like a new computer that came with a new job, or a desire to develop for the Mac, wanting a laptop instead of a desktop, a computer frying, etc.

Only after the switch would I find myself doing a new set of things with the new, faster computer.  Until that point, I didn't need a faster machine.
 
2013-03-05 09:38:41 PM  

roflmaonow: Rockstone: If it weren't for the lack of gaming, I'd have switched to Linux for everything- as it is I want to eventually invest in another SSD for my Desktop to install Linux on. My Laptop almost always uses Linux 24/7- unless I have to switch back to Windows for something (usually dealing with the horrible Respondus browser).

My Desktop has a Core i5 2500k- a two year old processor, an AMD Raedon 6950 1GB, and 16 GB of DDR 3 1600 RAM. I have one 128GB SSD, soon (hopefully) to have a second 128GB SSD. I built my machine back in December of 2011 and it's served me pretty well. Right now I'm holding off on upgrading of the major components. When the new line of AMD GPUs come out (hopefully soon...) I'll probably upgrade that, and I'll probably get a new case (I love my old case- it's an NZXT Lexa Blackline, but the new NZXT full towers are awesome), and probably get a new power supply. But I'll probably be using the same CPU. Indeed, I can always overclock to get a little bit more power if I needed to (and I might, though, not yet)

CPUs used to do most of the work. Now, in a Desktop environment, the GPU does most of the work for gaming. The CPU is just becoming a conductor. Think about it! Even the SSD has its own processor now.

Anyway, the only reason I might upgrade soon is because my machine can't run Crysis 3 or Planetside 2 on Ultra with fantastic FPS. And seriously, that's the only reason.

I have very similar specs and wont upgrade for another 4-5 years. I do have the 6870 though. I was thinking of picking up another 6870 to crossfire if I do need more power for playing newer games. I do foresee a time where I might need to upgrade my video card to play new PC games at ultra settings in a year or so. I think like someone stated, once the new PS4 and xbox 720 come out the higher specs of those console will prompt game developers to make their games more demanding. For right now and my backlog of 60 steam games I think I should be set for another 3-4 years.


I cannot find a 6950 1GB edition to crossfire.
 
2013-03-05 09:40:04 PM  

wildcardjack: [images.pcworld.com image 850x179]


DING DING DING DING
 
2013-03-05 09:43:15 PM  
brandent: I bought my wife a laptop 4 years ago. Dual core with 2GB of RAM. You can't tell any performance issues at all on it. If the hardware holds there's no reason to believe she'll need a new one in the next 5 years. All she does is do email, facebook and search the internet for articles about her work. That's the first machine I could say that about. There's zero noticeable different between the performance of that machine and a new one for those tasks.

When I'm not encoding stuff or processing photos, my i7 workstation looks like this.

www.lordargent.com
Four cores (eight vcores), and only two vcores in use (one handling firefox, the other handling firefoxe's plugin container), each at about 20% of the capacity of that vcore. And one vcore handling the rest of the stuff on the system (compiz, etc) using only 4.9% of the power of that vcore.

// I believe stuff gets swapped from core to core to balance out the heat profile of the CPU. Hence the waviness in the lines.

// laughable memory use
 
2013-03-05 09:46:12 PM  
Eddie Ate Dynamite: I think so. Basically we're both really awesome people who can keep things running forever? *brofist into an explosion*

I'm in a '99 pushing 190,000 miles :P

/ same engine

/ same transformer

/ the rubber parts of a car are the worst as far as replacement goes. The way it works out is the part is cheap, but the labor is a PITA (so you either pay a ton for it, or you spend a bunch of your time doing it yourself).
 
2013-03-05 09:51:57 PM  
Both my PCs are circa 2007 with upgraded ram and video cards. I'll just replace components if they fail. Unless something drastic happens with the internet or streaming video, I don't plan on buying a new box anytime soon. I don't really need them to be more than utilitarian. I'm not a PC gamer. I play casually on the 360. Hell, I dont even play the latest and greatest games. I'm still playing skyrim, bf3, and the gears series. They aren't marketing the latest gaming rig or the future Xbox to a consumer like me.
 
2013-03-05 09:55:42 PM  

Rockstone: I cannot find a 6950 1GB edition to crossfire.


Ugh that reminded me that the 6870s are also not in stock anywhere and the only place to get them is ebay for stupid prices that I would never pay. Yea looks like I'm upgrading to whatever is the big dog a few years earlier than I would like.
 
2013-03-05 10:01:07 PM  
I've been using an abacus for internet and basic computing for over 2000 years, and I'm not wasting my $$$ on no Windows 8.
 
2013-03-05 10:10:14 PM  

andrewagill: loonatic112358: andrewagill: and he's pretty much just as crazy in person as in his books.

and listening to him speak on this is a real good way to be put to sleep

I dunno.  For me, it was pretty much an exercise in not shouting, "It's not an exponential curve, it's probably a sigmoid, you fark!"  Which kept me rather interested in the crap he was spewing.

/Actually, that was more my friend who came with me.
//I was more the ``That won't work.  The amount of time it would take to send signals between that many cores would destroy the coherence of the system'' type.
///Which is pretty much the carrying capacity argument that turns Moore's Law into a sigmoid, when you get down to it.


After so many power point slides, I was mentally no longer in the room

I was excited to listen to that lecture, so didn't sit int he back, now I wish I did
 
2013-03-05 10:27:16 PM  
You know what's an awesome trick to do these days? Using a gig of RAM as a scratch disk. Really great if you point your browser cache at it, or dealing with a lot of source files.
 
2013-03-05 10:31:40 PM  
My recently retired front-line machine, an AMD Athlon XP2400+ (started out as an XP2000+), outside of getting memory and hard drive upgrades, did the job for ten and a half years, and while it lagged a bit on HD video (GeForce4 ti4400 could ALMOST do it), it performed adequately until the motherboard failed.  When I built it way back in 2002, I planned on running it 3-5 years, but money got tight, I got out of gaming, and it did the job.  I only even replaced it when I did because it died, and I replaced it with a five year old AMD Athlon64 3500+ that I got for free from my girlfriend who, unlike me, hasn't yet burned out on working in IT and still plays games, and thus needs newer hardware.  I run the lastest (I think) version of Fedora on here, and it does everything I need to do.  My laptop is one of the early Intel dual-core units, it too does everything I need.  For most users, pretty much anything made in the last eight years will do the job.  Until you have another major generational leap, like the 8088 and 286 to 386/486 leap, or the 486 to Pentium leap, these "general purpose" machines will continue to soldier on as long as the hardware still works.  Windows XP is over a decade old now, I think, and its still in full use all over the place.  I see it as often as I see Windows 7.  I rarely see anyone running Vista and I've not actually had my hands on anything that ran Win8 yet, but I'm not really interested in doing so.  A lot of these general-purpose users will probably transition to tablet-based stuff, at least the younger ones will, over the next few years.  I do think in a few more years from that, desktop PCs will really only be used by power users, with most of your general purpose home users using tablet based or even TV-based devices, with the exception of those who do a lot of typing who may have laptops or perhaps a laptop-ish device that they can dock a tablet into (I'm sure such a thing exists, but I don't own a tablet - though I did get a free netbook recently because its owner bought a tablet and said they didn't need it anymore.)
 
2013-03-05 10:50:57 PM  
Definitely have to echo how computers have become these long lasting machines when they work. I built a computer that really I wanted to last just one year that i took with me on a project overseas. I built it using the cheapest parts available and spending as least as possible. I cannibalized as much as I could. Already had RAM (2 GB DDR1), video card (ATI 9600 AT), monitor, case, and other little peripherals. I bought a new Dual Core E4400 CPU 2.0Ghz, Gigabyte board and PSU I think all for $120, might have been even less. This was around 2007.

That machine without any further upgrades still works today even though I don't use it all, but occasionally fire it up. I used to browse the internet, play Crysis at the lowest settings, and would even transcode (though a 700mb file took about an hour to encode, my current rig does it in 6-7 mins for a 2 GB file) point is it's still usable, had win 7 on it. I've seen 0 performance deterioration in my current setup and have had it for 2 years so far. I love how durable these things are.
 
2013-03-05 11:16:15 PM  
Power outgained software bloat. I grew up and don't play games anymore. My Core 2 2.16 and GTX 280 will be just fine barring physical failure.
 
2013-03-05 11:22:34 PM  
My IT manager emailed me this month to ask if I was ready for a new PC in my home office (I have a Dell tower and Mac Pro).

My first though was "No, this works well enough".

Then I thought "Hey, free computer with a better processor and more RAM". So I said "Yes".

I know I'm going to regret it that first month, trying to reinstall and reauthorize everything. Then months later you go to do something and realize you needed a certain program to do it, which you never re-installed.
 
2013-03-05 11:32:07 PM  

Mikey1969: I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...


8 is a miss? All of the performance increases I am experiencing aren't really happening? How did they manage to pull that one off?

There will only be a SP1 for Windows 8 when basic updates accumulate. There will never be a SP1 for Windows 8 because of any kind of flaw. There will be an update but it will not be called a service pack. They will probably call it Windows Blue and it will be for free and it will include IE 11.

Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a start screen and live corners. It runs faster and is more stable. This is 100% accurate.

The only thing I can find analogous to Windows 8 is John F. Kennedy.
 
2013-03-05 11:38:55 PM  

roflmaonow: Definitely have to echo how computers have become these long lasting machines when they work.


That isn't a recent phenomenon either.  There's no reason why an old computer shouldn't work years later, exactly the way it did the last time you switched it on.

Well, there are a few reasons.  I have a Commodore PET 4032 on my desk, and it still works, except the datacassette drive barely turns its spindle and I can't figure out the problem.  I think it's either gummed up lubricant or one of those crappy injection-molded plastic gears finally failing.  I should be digitizing the datacassettes anyway.
 
2013-03-05 11:48:24 PM  

fisker: Mikey1969: I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...

8 is a miss? All of the performance increases I am experiencing aren't really happening? How did they manage to pull that one off?

There will only be a SP1 for Windows 8 when basic updates accumulate. There will never be a SP1 for Windows 8 because of any kind of flaw. There will be an update but it will not be called a service pack. They will probably call it Windows Blue and it will be for free and it will include IE 11.

Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a start screen and live corners. It runs faster and is more stable. This is 100% accurate.

The only thing I can find analogous to Windows 8 is John F. Kennedy.


Of course, the law of averages dictates that Windows 8 will eventually give someone a giant farming chubby. Enjoy that thing, they have expiration dates.
 
2013-03-05 11:55:51 PM  
I'm benefiting from my connection to a large corporation that still has a 3-year PC upgrade cycle. Last year I scored a free 3 year old Optiplex 755. Solid machine with a Core 2 Duo E8400. I upgraded from 2GB of RAM to 4GB (cheap on ebay). I was going to throw one of my Daughter's old video cards in it, but the onboard video works fine for my needs. To be fair, my needs aren't very demanding: web surfing, email, office apps, video, photo editing.

As long as I can run Gnome-shell effects smoothly, watch full-screen HD video, and post-process my pictures I really don't see the need to upgrade.

I recently bought a similarly-speced laptop (corporate lease return). Barring hardware failures I figure I'm set for the next 3-4 years.
 
2013-03-06 12:05:16 AM  

Mikey1969: Of course, the law of averages dictates that Windows 8 will eventually give someone a giant farming chubby.


Oh, I think anybody can do it.

What is the proper terminology for a thing that is an actual improvement but discounted because of popular misconception or belief, spread in an attempt to disqualify via critical dissonance?
 
2013-03-06 12:10:34 AM  
roflmaonow: That machine without any further upgrades still works today even though I don't use it all, but occasionally fire it up. I used to browse the internet, play Crysis at the lowest settings, and would even transcode (though a 700mb file took about an hour to encode, my current rig does it in 6-7 mins for a 2 GB file)

Mine takes a little longer to transcode DVDs ... but I doublefist it.

lordargent.com
 
2013-03-06 12:16:59 AM  

fisker: Mikey1969: Of course, the law of averages dictates that Windows 8 will eventually give someone a giant farming chubby.

Oh, I think anybody can do it.

What is the proper terminology for a thing that is an actual improvement but discounted because of popular misconception or belief, spread in an attempt to disqualify via critical dissonance?


I'm not sure... I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

But hey, if your porn loads quicker on 8, then more power to you.
 
2013-03-06 12:19:54 AM  

lordargent: roflmaonow: That machine without any further upgrades still works today even though I don't use it all, but occasionally fire it up. I used to browse the internet, play Crysis at the lowest settings, and would even transcode (though a 700mb file took about an hour to encode, my current rig does it in 6-7 mins for a 2 GB file)

Mine takes a little longer to transcode DVDs ... but I doublefist it.

[lordargent.com image 850x344]


Interesting, whats your setup? I get about 350-400 avg fps using handbrake.
 
2013-03-06 12:22:09 AM  

Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.


No, you don't.
 
2013-03-06 12:35:06 AM  

fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.


God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...
 
2013-03-06 12:49:54 AM  

Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.

God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...


This is obviously a response form someone who has never had their panties bunched up.

This isn't some kind of, 'Hey now, my down-syndrome baby is the most beautiful baby in the world' situation. This is some serious 'Village of the Damned' bullshiat happening in reverse.

This isn't a shill and I never fan-boy anything. I'm usually the first to fark everything on this website. But when you make an inaccurate statement about a product or tool that I am using, I will not let it go unchallenged. Especially if you are not or have not ever used it longer than 2 minutes at Best Buy and are simply repeating all the negative things you read about the consumer's preview edition.
 
2013-03-06 01:21:17 AM  
The Sony Vaio desktop I bought new in 2003 still runs XP just fine thanks.
 
2013-03-06 01:42:44 AM  

fisker: Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.

God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...

This is obviously a response form someone who has never had their panties bunched up.

This isn't some kind of, 'Hey now, my down-syndrome baby is the most beautiful baby in the world' situation. This is some serious 'Village of the Damned' bullshiat happening in reverse.

This isn't a shill and I never fan-boy anything. I'm usually the first to fark everything on this website. But when you make an inaccurate statement about a product or tool that I am using, I will not let it go unchallenged. Especially if you are not or have not ever used it longer than 2 minutes at Best Buy and are simply repeating all the negative things you read about the consumer's preview edition.


Actually I'm repeating what I have been told by It Directors at two different companies after running the Enterprise edition. The word was the same, I was welcome to install and run 8, but it really wasn't worth the trouble. But hey, good try I guess. Way off target, but at least you tried to make an assumption.

Of course, we all know what assumptions get you, right?
 
2013-03-06 02:00:24 AM  

StinkyFiddlewinks: Power outgained software bloat. I grew up and don't play games anymore. My Core 2 2.16 and GTX 280 will be just fine barring physical failure.


Well, bully for you. Did you get a gold star the day you "grew up", or did they have a proper ceremony to commemorate the occasion?
 
2013-03-06 02:12:54 AM  

Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.

God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...

This is obviously a response form someone who has never had their panties bunched up.

This isn't some kind of, 'Hey now, my down-syndrome baby is the most beautiful baby in the world' situation. This is some serious 'Village of the Damned' bullshiat happening in reverse.

This isn't a shill and I never fan-boy anything. I'm usually the first to fark everything on this website. But when you make an inaccurate statement about a product or tool that I am using, I will not let it go unchallenged. Especially if you are not or have not ever used it longer than 2 minutes at Best Buy and are simply repeating all the negative things you read about the consumer's preview edition.

Actually I'm repeating what I have been told by It Directors at two different companies after running the Enterprise edition. The word was the same, I was welcome to install and run 8, but it really wasn't worth the trouble. But hey, good try I guess. Way off target, but at least you tried to make an assumption.

Of course, we all know what assumptions get you, right?


I am not venturing to qualify my experience because I could say anything and it would matter. It doesn't count. Do you presume to think that I have no qualifications? I am willing to bet that I could tell you something true about a race car while having a professional tell you something false and you would believe him. I am convinced that my experience with Windows 8 is false because your IT directors told you something after running the Enterprise edition. I told you it works fine. Are you curious to know about what I do for a living or do you want to go on assuming that your IT Directors have this situation handled FOR you?

I want to know how to make my experience less satisfying or 'not worth,' so I can be an expert like you. What am I doing that you are not doing, or, what are your 'IT Directors' doing that I am not, that is making this incredibly horrible experience, LESS operational? How can you make this happen for me? I want to make sure that I am not making any improper assumptions.
 
2013-03-06 02:28:40 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.


Built my PC in 2007.  Admittedly, was pretty decent spec-wise for the time.

Still runs every game I throw at it at maximum graphical and physics settings, including some fairly graphically intense shooters published this year.

I had to replace the video card about six months ago-- not due to lack of power, but due to the fan wearing out, as will happen when you run an electric motor constantly for five years plus.

So... yeah, pretty much what you said.  Gamers don't particularly need new hardware regularly either.

Mikey1969: I'm not sure... I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

But hey, if your porn loads quicker on 8, then more power to you.


Windows 8 is fine.

Metro is still the shiattiest shiate ever to be shat by the computer industry, but the underlying mechanical stuff has actually followed the upward trend of quality and efficiency started back when they gutted Vista and reverted half the features.
 
2013-03-06 03:11:21 AM  

StinkyFiddlewinks: Power outgained software bloat. I grew up and don't play games anymore. My Core 2 2.16 and GTX 280 will be just fine barring physical failure.


That's 45nm, iirc so... I wanna say 2006?  2007?

That'll last you a while if you're talking about a laptop.  If it's a desktop you leave running all the time, look out for memory failure in the next couple years and processor failure in another three to four.  And obviously always be prepared to check/replace your fans at any time.

Field-stress related failure at normal operating temperatures is usually targeted for about 10 years for processors and 5 for memory.  Not that they can't last longer than that, software can compensate for a lot, but that's about where you're going to start seeing actual performance degradation assuming competent maintenance in other respects.
 
2013-03-06 03:13:46 AM  
By memory failure I obviously mean RAM.  ROM failure is related much more closely to usage, and is thus much more random (or, rather, usage of your hard drive is much more random) and given sizes and stability in magnetic media it's entirely possible that your great-grandchildren will be able to pull the disk out of your hard drive and laugh at how quaint your porn was.
 
2013-03-06 03:20:17 AM  
Some interesting comments here. Yep, already went the 'must have latest/greatest' route, starting in the 90's. When I finally stopped that crap, was running 7 desktops, 3 laptops and 2 servers running 9i.
Since I've changed my programming focus, I'm down to one box that I gutted/rebuilt 1 1/2 years ago. AMD quad 965 BB, OC to 3.8ghz (and I don't game), 16gb DD3 ram, 2 2TB drives, 1gb GPU, Coolmaster & Zalman fans, and a 1080p 23" LCD, and did it for under $750. Caught the prices right at the time. Runs Win7/64bit,  Lightroom, xampp and all my remote s/w just fine. See no need for an upgrade any time soon.
 
2013-03-06 05:37:06 AM  

meyerkev: Though I find it hilarious that both Nvidia and AMD have just said "F it.  We're not bringing out video cards until the new consoles come out and we get some games that can stress them."  We haven't had new high-end video cards since Q1 2012, and we're not getting them until Q4 2013.

/Well, other than Titan, which is an overpriced "halo" card for GPGPU people and small form factors.


Yup...when it comes to say the GTX680 vs its predecessor the GTX580 it feels like the the ol 8800GTX vs the 9800GTX again:  The newer guy is 'more efficient' but in some areas not even as powerful as the older one.
 
2013-03-06 05:44:34 AM  

lordargent: Mine takes a little longer to transcode DVDs ... but I doublefist it.


You know handbrake has this 'queue' feature and you could instead devote all your cores to the same task to get it done faster before moving onto the second one, right? ;)  Unless are you facing an IO shortage so you've got each running against a source file on a different drive perhaps?  When I'm breaking down bluray ISOs to mkvs and using an SSD raid as the source my 4.8Ghz vcores are all hitting 100%, just trying to understand a situation where you'd want to concurrently run two sessions.  Its gotta be an odd case of IO saturation isn't it.
 
2013-03-06 06:23:25 AM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: You see what I'm getting at?

I think so. Basically we're both really awesome people who can keep things running forever? *brofist into an explosion*


Apparently you don't. I'm not that amazed that my car is 12 years old and still running, especially given the odometer reading. Tires, battery, oil and even brakes are expected maintenance items.

One of my favorite computers I've owned was an Apple ][. It was my 3rd computer. If I still had it, I could easily put a modern motherboard and hard disk and everything else inside of the case, but it would no longer be an Apple ][.even if I rigged it up to use the original keyboard. (actually, I think that would be kind of cool....I may just have to start searching around for an old Apple ][ so I can do just that).

You started off your post by saying "I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times".

In other words, you are claiming your computer is the same computer despite replacing everything inside of it 3 times. It may be the same case, but it's not the same computer.

I knew a guy who once bought a Corvette. He already had a a Toyota pickup truck that was highly modified but since he rolled it and it was trashed he took the Toyota body off of it and replaced it with the Corvette's body. It would be like him saying he now has a Corvette. He didn't have a Corvette. What he had was a Toyota pickup that he shoved into a Corvette body. It was kind of cool, but it didn't have a Corvette engine. It didn't handle like a Corvette In short, it was NOT a Corvette. And that was fine with him. He didn't pretend that it was a Corvette.

You strike me as the type of person who if he could do that would, but you would just claim that you had a 4-wheel drive Corvette with oversized tires.
 
2013-03-06 06:40:15 AM  

Happy Hours: Eddie Ate Dynamite: You see what I'm getting at?

I think so. Basically we're both really awesome people who can keep things running forever? *brofist into an explosion*

Apparently you don't. I'm not that amazed that my car is 12 years old and still running, especially given the odometer reading. Tires, battery, oil and even brakes are expected maintenance items.

One of my favorite computers I've owned was an Apple ][. It was my 3rd computer. If I still had it, I could easily put a modern motherboard and hard disk and everything else inside of the case, but it would no longer be an Apple ][.even if I rigged it up to use the original keyboard. (actually, I think that would be kind of cool....I may just have to start searching around for an old Apple ][ so I can do just that).

You started off your post by saying "I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times".

In other words, you are claiming your computer is the same computer despite replacing everything inside of it 3 times. It may be the same case, but it's not the same computer.

I knew a guy who once bought a Corvette. He already had a a Toyota pickup truck that was highly modified but since he rolled it and it was trashed he took the Toyota body off of it and replaced it with the Corvette's body. It would be like him saying he now has a Corvette. He didn't have a Corvette. What he had was a Toyota pickup that he shoved into a Corvette body. It was kind of cool, but it didn't have a Corvette engine. It didn't handle like a Corvette In short, it was NOT a Corvette. And that was fine with him. He didn't pretend that it was a Corvette.

You strike me as the type of person who if he could do that would, but you would just claim that you had a 4-wheel drive Corvette with oversized tires.


A 4 wheel drive 'vette would be pretty cool. Like a poor man's Lamborghini. I prefer Ferrari's though.

Also, when you post in response to me, do you hear something? A faint whistling up above you? Sounds sort of like a joke flying right over your head.
 
2013-03-06 09:57:25 AM  

fisker: What is the proper terminology for a thing that is an actual improvement but discounted because of popular misconception or belief, spread in an attempt to disqualify via critical dissonance?


"Eye candy."
 
2013-03-06 10:50:32 AM  

make me some tea: The only reason I'm looking to upgrade my home computer is the fact that it has a 4GB RAM limit, and after I get enough tabs going on Chrome it swaps something awful.

I'd stay on the same hardware indefinitely if I could soup it up to 32GB RAM. My next compy will have that much, and I'll probably use a good portion of it just for everyday stuff.


I have 16 right now and I have never seen my ram usage above 50%. The highest I've likely ever had it was when I accidentally left Skyrim open and played a match of dota2 on one monitor while browsing and using my other monitor for normal stuff. I just don't see any kind of normal home use exceeding 8g for a good while.
 
2013-03-06 12:23:36 PM  
Meh.  I used to be super techno nerd and handbuilt my machines piece by piece.

After the last machine died a year ago, I bought a $700 off the shelf system, and added my own video card, an extra LCD monitor, and a couple of spare HDs.  One for backup, one for documents and downloads.  I haven't seen any game that I cannot run smoothly at 1920x1080 with every setting maxed.

There's just no real need with current hardware to upgrade every time ____ releases a new video card/cpu/whatever.  There is certainly no need to replace entire systems unless you have experienced catastrophic failure.
 
2013-03-06 12:56:50 PM  
BumpInTheNight : You know handbrake has this 'queue' feature and you could instead devote all your cores to the same task to get it done faster before moving onto the second one, right?

That's encoding from DVDs on the fly, so I believe the speed of the DVD drives are the limitation (IE, the ripping doesn't stress my machine CPU or memory wise).

IIRC, dvd read speed at 48x is around 66 Mbps. Hardly enough to keep the 8 vcores in an i7 occupied.

// it also takes a minute for those drives to spin up to max speed (in my screenshot above, note that the rip is only around 1-2% complete).

// I guess with 12 GB of ram, I could technically hold the entire contents of the DVD in RAM, but the problem is still getting it off of the disc in the first place.

// I use the queue feature for TV show disks (add each episode individually to the queue).
 
2013-03-06 04:33:21 PM  

lordargent: That's encoding from DVDs on the fly, so I believe the speed of the DVD drives are the limitation (IE, the ripping doesn't stress my machine CPU or memory wise).


Doh!  okay yah that'd explain it too, I've honestly forgotten that handbrake can go straight from disk, I'm so used to using DVDfab to decrypt/rip the blurays first and then pass them through handbrake.
 
2013-03-06 04:52:06 PM  
For the record, I do think there's lots of processor intensive places for video games to go, and I think soon, you'll see video games advancing rapidly (with or without the consoles). Once we break the power-wall barrier (either through a completely new method of computing or some miracle), we'll start seeing games where insanity can happen- you shoot at snow and melts, you fire a rocket at a wall and it crumbles... and this will be standard on all games.
 
2013-03-06 06:33:42 PM  

Fubini: Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.


Yeah... last generation was likely the last time consoles were faster than already-available PCs at launch, and even then, it was a just-barely thing.  Everybody's up against the power wall now, and consoles have a smaller maximum TDP simply because they are physically smaller.
 
2013-03-08 09:27:42 PM  
BumpInTheNight : Doh! okay yah that'd explain it too, I've honestly forgotten that handbrake can go straight from disk, I'm so used to using DVDfab to decrypt/rip the blurays first and then pass them through handbrake.

Dual ripping from the drives again, apparently one of my drives is faster than the other as well.

Two disks from the same TV series.

One of the drives is still doing 100-250 fps on the rip, while the other drive is doing about 250-300 fps (The regular DVD-Burner is reading faster than the Blu-Ray burner, despite being a year older. They're mounted to different controllers/chipsets on the mobo (one is intel branded, the other jmicro) so that might have something to do with it. I'll have to experiment more and might do some cable swapping of one of the controllers is significantly faster (my sata drive is on the same controller as the "slow" optical drive.)).

Hmm the "fast" drive is going to finish the rip first, even though I created it's queue after creating and starting the queue on the "slow" drive. It already caught up and passed it.

From an ISO on my SSD drive, I got 300-350fps
 
2013-03-09 06:06:31 AM  

lordargent: One of the drives is still doing 100-250 fps on the rip, while the other drive is doing about 250-300 fps


I've met all kinds of oddities when it comes to optical drives vs sata controllers (mostly with the first gen sata1 controllers though), it could just be that the combo drive's DVD reading mechanisms are just slower because they had to be built to co-exist with the completely different laser for the blurays.  I think the stat for DVD reading is 150K*read speed so say an upper end 40x is still only ~6MB/sec which is yawnable to even a sata1 controller however yah I've met situations (especially with the nvidia ones) where if I had a raid on the controller and I put an optical on it as well the optical's performance would nose dive.  The fix being having the optical on a different controller like the usual spare 2 port jmicron.
 
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