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(PCWorld)   Why are PC sales down? Moore's law   (pcworld.com) divider line 235
    More: Interesting, Moore's Law, Economic stagnation, limiting factor, World Wide Web, word processing, CPUs, newegg, Electric energy consumption  
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9606 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Mar 2013 at 2:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-05 11:16:15 PM
Power outgained software bloat. I grew up and don't play games anymore. My Core 2 2.16 and GTX 280 will be just fine barring physical failure.
 
2013-03-05 11:22:34 PM
My IT manager emailed me this month to ask if I was ready for a new PC in my home office (I have a Dell tower and Mac Pro).

My first though was "No, this works well enough".

Then I thought "Hey, free computer with a better processor and more RAM". So I said "Yes".

I know I'm going to regret it that first month, trying to reinstall and reauthorize everything. Then months later you go to do something and realize you needed a certain program to do it, which you never re-installed.
 
2013-03-05 11:32:07 PM

Mikey1969: I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...


8 is a miss? All of the performance increases I am experiencing aren't really happening? How did they manage to pull that one off?

There will only be a SP1 for Windows 8 when basic updates accumulate. There will never be a SP1 for Windows 8 because of any kind of flaw. There will be an update but it will not be called a service pack. They will probably call it Windows Blue and it will be for free and it will include IE 11.

Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a start screen and live corners. It runs faster and is more stable. This is 100% accurate.

The only thing I can find analogous to Windows 8 is John F. Kennedy.
 
2013-03-05 11:38:55 PM

roflmaonow: Definitely have to echo how computers have become these long lasting machines when they work.


That isn't a recent phenomenon either.  There's no reason why an old computer shouldn't work years later, exactly the way it did the last time you switched it on.

Well, there are a few reasons.  I have a Commodore PET 4032 on my desk, and it still works, except the datacassette drive barely turns its spindle and I can't figure out the problem.  I think it's either gummed up lubricant or one of those crappy injection-molded plastic gears finally failing.  I should be digitizing the datacassettes anyway.
 
2013-03-05 11:48:24 PM

fisker: Mikey1969: I don't know if SP1 will save Windows 8, they seem to be on a kind of hit/miss cycle... 7 was their hit, 8 is a miss, and whatever is next will be a hit, maybe...

8 is a miss? All of the performance increases I am experiencing aren't really happening? How did they manage to pull that one off?

There will only be a SP1 for Windows 8 when basic updates accumulate. There will never be a SP1 for Windows 8 because of any kind of flaw. There will be an update but it will not be called a service pack. They will probably call it Windows Blue and it will be for free and it will include IE 11.

Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a start screen and live corners. It runs faster and is more stable. This is 100% accurate.

The only thing I can find analogous to Windows 8 is John F. Kennedy.


Of course, the law of averages dictates that Windows 8 will eventually give someone a giant farming chubby. Enjoy that thing, they have expiration dates.
 
2013-03-05 11:55:51 PM
I'm benefiting from my connection to a large corporation that still has a 3-year PC upgrade cycle. Last year I scored a free 3 year old Optiplex 755. Solid machine with a Core 2 Duo E8400. I upgraded from 2GB of RAM to 4GB (cheap on ebay). I was going to throw one of my Daughter's old video cards in it, but the onboard video works fine for my needs. To be fair, my needs aren't very demanding: web surfing, email, office apps, video, photo editing.

As long as I can run Gnome-shell effects smoothly, watch full-screen HD video, and post-process my pictures I really don't see the need to upgrade.

I recently bought a similarly-speced laptop (corporate lease return). Barring hardware failures I figure I'm set for the next 3-4 years.
 
2013-03-06 12:05:16 AM

Mikey1969: Of course, the law of averages dictates that Windows 8 will eventually give someone a giant farming chubby.


Oh, I think anybody can do it.

What is the proper terminology for a thing that is an actual improvement but discounted because of popular misconception or belief, spread in an attempt to disqualify via critical dissonance?
 
2013-03-06 12:10:34 AM
roflmaonow: That machine without any further upgrades still works today even though I don't use it all, but occasionally fire it up. I used to browse the internet, play Crysis at the lowest settings, and would even transcode (though a 700mb file took about an hour to encode, my current rig does it in 6-7 mins for a 2 GB file)

Mine takes a little longer to transcode DVDs ... but I doublefist it.

lordargent.com
 
2013-03-06 12:16:59 AM

fisker: Mikey1969: Of course, the law of averages dictates that Windows 8 will eventually give someone a giant farming chubby.

Oh, I think anybody can do it.

What is the proper terminology for a thing that is an actual improvement but discounted because of popular misconception or belief, spread in an attempt to disqualify via critical dissonance?


I'm not sure... I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

But hey, if your porn loads quicker on 8, then more power to you.
 
2013-03-06 12:19:54 AM

lordargent: roflmaonow: That machine without any further upgrades still works today even though I don't use it all, but occasionally fire it up. I used to browse the internet, play Crysis at the lowest settings, and would even transcode (though a 700mb file took about an hour to encode, my current rig does it in 6-7 mins for a 2 GB file)

Mine takes a little longer to transcode DVDs ... but I doublefist it.

[lordargent.com image 850x344]


Interesting, whats your setup? I get about 350-400 avg fps using handbrake.
 
2013-03-06 12:22:09 AM

Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.


No, you don't.
 
2013-03-06 12:35:06 AM

fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.


God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...
 
2013-03-06 12:49:54 AM

Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.

God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...


This is obviously a response form someone who has never had their panties bunched up.

This isn't some kind of, 'Hey now, my down-syndrome baby is the most beautiful baby in the world' situation. This is some serious 'Village of the Damned' bullshiat happening in reverse.

This isn't a shill and I never fan-boy anything. I'm usually the first to fark everything on this website. But when you make an inaccurate statement about a product or tool that I am using, I will not let it go unchallenged. Especially if you are not or have not ever used it longer than 2 minutes at Best Buy and are simply repeating all the negative things you read about the consumer's preview edition.
 
2013-03-06 01:21:17 AM
The Sony Vaio desktop I bought new in 2003 still runs XP just fine thanks.
 
2013-03-06 01:42:44 AM

fisker: Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.

God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...

This is obviously a response form someone who has never had their panties bunched up.

This isn't some kind of, 'Hey now, my down-syndrome baby is the most beautiful baby in the world' situation. This is some serious 'Village of the Damned' bullshiat happening in reverse.

This isn't a shill and I never fan-boy anything. I'm usually the first to fark everything on this website. But when you make an inaccurate statement about a product or tool that I am using, I will not let it go unchallenged. Especially if you are not or have not ever used it longer than 2 minutes at Best Buy and are simply repeating all the negative things you read about the consumer's preview edition.


Actually I'm repeating what I have been told by It Directors at two different companies after running the Enterprise edition. The word was the same, I was welcome to install and run 8, but it really wasn't worth the trouble. But hey, good try I guess. Way off target, but at least you tried to make an assumption.

Of course, we all know what assumptions get you, right?
 
2013-03-06 02:00:24 AM

StinkyFiddlewinks: Power outgained software bloat. I grew up and don't play games anymore. My Core 2 2.16 and GTX 280 will be just fine barring physical failure.


Well, bully for you. Did you get a gold star the day you "grew up", or did they have a proper ceremony to commemorate the occasion?
 
2013-03-06 02:12:54 AM

Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: fisker: Mikey1969: I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

No, you don't.

God, you get your panties bunched up almost like the Apple Fanbois, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, hope your Microsoft stock starts to climb again, maybe you will feel better after a few more years...

This is obviously a response form someone who has never had their panties bunched up.

This isn't some kind of, 'Hey now, my down-syndrome baby is the most beautiful baby in the world' situation. This is some serious 'Village of the Damned' bullshiat happening in reverse.

This isn't a shill and I never fan-boy anything. I'm usually the first to fark everything on this website. But when you make an inaccurate statement about a product or tool that I am using, I will not let it go unchallenged. Especially if you are not or have not ever used it longer than 2 minutes at Best Buy and are simply repeating all the negative things you read about the consumer's preview edition.

Actually I'm repeating what I have been told by It Directors at two different companies after running the Enterprise edition. The word was the same, I was welcome to install and run 8, but it really wasn't worth the trouble. But hey, good try I guess. Way off target, but at least you tried to make an assumption.

Of course, we all know what assumptions get you, right?


I am not venturing to qualify my experience because I could say anything and it would matter. It doesn't count. Do you presume to think that I have no qualifications? I am willing to bet that I could tell you something true about a race car while having a professional tell you something false and you would believe him. I am convinced that my experience with Windows 8 is false because your IT directors told you something after running the Enterprise edition. I told you it works fine. Are you curious to know about what I do for a living or do you want to go on assuming that your IT Directors have this situation handled FOR you?

I want to know how to make my experience less satisfying or 'not worth,' so I can be an expert like you. What am I doing that you are not doing, or, what are your 'IT Directors' doing that I am not, that is making this incredibly horrible experience, LESS operational? How can you make this happen for me? I want to make sure that I am not making any improper assumptions.
 
2013-03-06 02:28:40 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Makes sense to me.  I've had the same PC for going on five years now, and it's still plenty fast for what I do.  PC gamers are probably the most demanding of performance outside of professional users, and even for them it's more about the latest video card than the CPU.


Built my PC in 2007.  Admittedly, was pretty decent spec-wise for the time.

Still runs every game I throw at it at maximum graphical and physics settings, including some fairly graphically intense shooters published this year.

I had to replace the video card about six months ago-- not due to lack of power, but due to the fan wearing out, as will happen when you run an electric motor constantly for five years plus.

So... yeah, pretty much what you said.  Gamers don't particularly need new hardware regularly either.

Mikey1969: I'm not sure... I know the term isn't 'Windows 8', though.

But hey, if your porn loads quicker on 8, then more power to you.


Windows 8 is fine.

Metro is still the shiattiest shiate ever to be shat by the computer industry, but the underlying mechanical stuff has actually followed the upward trend of quality and efficiency started back when they gutted Vista and reverted half the features.
 
2013-03-06 03:11:21 AM

StinkyFiddlewinks: Power outgained software bloat. I grew up and don't play games anymore. My Core 2 2.16 and GTX 280 will be just fine barring physical failure.


That's 45nm, iirc so... I wanna say 2006?  2007?

That'll last you a while if you're talking about a laptop.  If it's a desktop you leave running all the time, look out for memory failure in the next couple years and processor failure in another three to four.  And obviously always be prepared to check/replace your fans at any time.

Field-stress related failure at normal operating temperatures is usually targeted for about 10 years for processors and 5 for memory.  Not that they can't last longer than that, software can compensate for a lot, but that's about where you're going to start seeing actual performance degradation assuming competent maintenance in other respects.
 
2013-03-06 03:13:46 AM
By memory failure I obviously mean RAM.  ROM failure is related much more closely to usage, and is thus much more random (or, rather, usage of your hard drive is much more random) and given sizes and stability in magnetic media it's entirely possible that your great-grandchildren will be able to pull the disk out of your hard drive and laugh at how quaint your porn was.
 
2013-03-06 03:20:17 AM
Some interesting comments here. Yep, already went the 'must have latest/greatest' route, starting in the 90's. When I finally stopped that crap, was running 7 desktops, 3 laptops and 2 servers running 9i.
Since I've changed my programming focus, I'm down to one box that I gutted/rebuilt 1 1/2 years ago. AMD quad 965 BB, OC to 3.8ghz (and I don't game), 16gb DD3 ram, 2 2TB drives, 1gb GPU, Coolmaster & Zalman fans, and a 1080p 23" LCD, and did it for under $750. Caught the prices right at the time. Runs Win7/64bit,  Lightroom, xampp and all my remote s/w just fine. See no need for an upgrade any time soon.
 
2013-03-06 05:37:06 AM

meyerkev: Though I find it hilarious that both Nvidia and AMD have just said "F it.  We're not bringing out video cards until the new consoles come out and we get some games that can stress them."  We haven't had new high-end video cards since Q1 2012, and we're not getting them until Q4 2013.

/Well, other than Titan, which is an overpriced "halo" card for GPGPU people and small form factors.


Yup...when it comes to say the GTX680 vs its predecessor the GTX580 it feels like the the ol 8800GTX vs the 9800GTX again:  The newer guy is 'more efficient' but in some areas not even as powerful as the older one.
 
2013-03-06 05:44:34 AM

lordargent: Mine takes a little longer to transcode DVDs ... but I doublefist it.


You know handbrake has this 'queue' feature and you could instead devote all your cores to the same task to get it done faster before moving onto the second one, right? ;)  Unless are you facing an IO shortage so you've got each running against a source file on a different drive perhaps?  When I'm breaking down bluray ISOs to mkvs and using an SSD raid as the source my 4.8Ghz vcores are all hitting 100%, just trying to understand a situation where you'd want to concurrently run two sessions.  Its gotta be an odd case of IO saturation isn't it.
 
2013-03-06 06:23:25 AM

Eddie Ate Dynamite: You see what I'm getting at?

I think so. Basically we're both really awesome people who can keep things running forever? *brofist into an explosion*


Apparently you don't. I'm not that amazed that my car is 12 years old and still running, especially given the odometer reading. Tires, battery, oil and even brakes are expected maintenance items.

One of my favorite computers I've owned was an Apple ][. It was my 3rd computer. If I still had it, I could easily put a modern motherboard and hard disk and everything else inside of the case, but it would no longer be an Apple ][.even if I rigged it up to use the original keyboard. (actually, I think that would be kind of cool....I may just have to start searching around for an old Apple ][ so I can do just that).

You started off your post by saying "I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times".

In other words, you are claiming your computer is the same computer despite replacing everything inside of it 3 times. It may be the same case, but it's not the same computer.

I knew a guy who once bought a Corvette. He already had a a Toyota pickup truck that was highly modified but since he rolled it and it was trashed he took the Toyota body off of it and replaced it with the Corvette's body. It would be like him saying he now has a Corvette. He didn't have a Corvette. What he had was a Toyota pickup that he shoved into a Corvette body. It was kind of cool, but it didn't have a Corvette engine. It didn't handle like a Corvette In short, it was NOT a Corvette. And that was fine with him. He didn't pretend that it was a Corvette.

You strike me as the type of person who if he could do that would, but you would just claim that you had a 4-wheel drive Corvette with oversized tires.
 
2013-03-06 06:40:15 AM

Happy Hours: Eddie Ate Dynamite: You see what I'm getting at?

I think so. Basically we're both really awesome people who can keep things running forever? *brofist into an explosion*

Apparently you don't. I'm not that amazed that my car is 12 years old and still running, especially given the odometer reading. Tires, battery, oil and even brakes are expected maintenance items.

One of my favorite computers I've owned was an Apple ][. It was my 3rd computer. If I still had it, I could easily put a modern motherboard and hard disk and everything else inside of the case, but it would no longer be an Apple ][.even if I rigged it up to use the original keyboard. (actually, I think that would be kind of cool....I may just have to start searching around for an old Apple ][ so I can do just that).

You started off your post by saying "I've had this same computer for 12+ years now. I've replaced the motherboard (and the crap that goes in it) 3 times".

In other words, you are claiming your computer is the same computer despite replacing everything inside of it 3 times. It may be the same case, but it's not the same computer.

I knew a guy who once bought a Corvette. He already had a a Toyota pickup truck that was highly modified but since he rolled it and it was trashed he took the Toyota body off of it and replaced it with the Corvette's body. It would be like him saying he now has a Corvette. He didn't have a Corvette. What he had was a Toyota pickup that he shoved into a Corvette body. It was kind of cool, but it didn't have a Corvette engine. It didn't handle like a Corvette In short, it was NOT a Corvette. And that was fine with him. He didn't pretend that it was a Corvette.

You strike me as the type of person who if he could do that would, but you would just claim that you had a 4-wheel drive Corvette with oversized tires.


A 4 wheel drive 'vette would be pretty cool. Like a poor man's Lamborghini. I prefer Ferrari's though.

Also, when you post in response to me, do you hear something? A faint whistling up above you? Sounds sort of like a joke flying right over your head.
 
2013-03-06 09:57:25 AM

fisker: What is the proper terminology for a thing that is an actual improvement but discounted because of popular misconception or belief, spread in an attempt to disqualify via critical dissonance?


"Eye candy."
 
2013-03-06 10:50:32 AM

make me some tea: The only reason I'm looking to upgrade my home computer is the fact that it has a 4GB RAM limit, and after I get enough tabs going on Chrome it swaps something awful.

I'd stay on the same hardware indefinitely if I could soup it up to 32GB RAM. My next compy will have that much, and I'll probably use a good portion of it just for everyday stuff.


I have 16 right now and I have never seen my ram usage above 50%. The highest I've likely ever had it was when I accidentally left Skyrim open and played a match of dota2 on one monitor while browsing and using my other monitor for normal stuff. I just don't see any kind of normal home use exceeding 8g for a good while.
 
2013-03-06 11:43:31 AM
I got a computer for free from work that had a bad video card and was maybe two years old, and after replacing it with a new GTX 650 video card that thing is a beast.  Core 2 duo at 3 ghz, 600g hd and 4 gigs of ram, and that bad boy runs games great.  Cost me only 150 total, since i had to get a new case and power supply for it.  A buddy of mine just got a new computer the other day and mine blows it away lol.  Want to put more ram in it though, but I'll get to that soon.
 
2013-03-06 12:23:36 PM
Meh.  I used to be super techno nerd and handbuilt my machines piece by piece.

After the last machine died a year ago, I bought a $700 off the shelf system, and added my own video card, an extra LCD monitor, and a couple of spare HDs.  One for backup, one for documents and downloads.  I haven't seen any game that I cannot run smoothly at 1920x1080 with every setting maxed.

There's just no real need with current hardware to upgrade every time ____ releases a new video card/cpu/whatever.  There is certainly no need to replace entire systems unless you have experienced catastrophic failure.
 
2013-03-06 12:56:50 PM
BumpInTheNight : You know handbrake has this 'queue' feature and you could instead devote all your cores to the same task to get it done faster before moving onto the second one, right?

That's encoding from DVDs on the fly, so I believe the speed of the DVD drives are the limitation (IE, the ripping doesn't stress my machine CPU or memory wise).

IIRC, dvd read speed at 48x is around 66 Mbps. Hardly enough to keep the 8 vcores in an i7 occupied.

// it also takes a minute for those drives to spin up to max speed (in my screenshot above, note that the rip is only around 1-2% complete).

// I guess with 12 GB of ram, I could technically hold the entire contents of the DVD in RAM, but the problem is still getting it off of the disc in the first place.

// I use the queue feature for TV show disks (add each episode individually to the queue).
 
2013-03-06 04:33:21 PM

lordargent: That's encoding from DVDs on the fly, so I believe the speed of the DVD drives are the limitation (IE, the ripping doesn't stress my machine CPU or memory wise).


Doh!  okay yah that'd explain it too, I've honestly forgotten that handbrake can go straight from disk, I'm so used to using DVDfab to decrypt/rip the blurays first and then pass them through handbrake.
 
2013-03-06 04:52:06 PM
For the record, I do think there's lots of processor intensive places for video games to go, and I think soon, you'll see video games advancing rapidly (with or without the consoles). Once we break the power-wall barrier (either through a completely new method of computing or some miracle), we'll start seeing games where insanity can happen- you shoot at snow and melts, you fire a rocket at a wall and it crumbles... and this will be standard on all games.
 
2013-03-06 06:33:42 PM

Fubini: Game consoles have pretty much made sure that video-games can be run on 9 year old hardware, and most modern games do run pretty well on relatively old hardware.

The new PS4 specs don't even come close to a modern *performance* PC, and you could build something on par with them for $500 or less.


Yeah... last generation was likely the last time consoles were faster than already-available PCs at launch, and even then, it was a just-barely thing.  Everybody's up against the power wall now, and consoles have a smaller maximum TDP simply because they are physically smaller.
 
2013-03-08 09:27:42 PM
BumpInTheNight : Doh! okay yah that'd explain it too, I've honestly forgotten that handbrake can go straight from disk, I'm so used to using DVDfab to decrypt/rip the blurays first and then pass them through handbrake.

Dual ripping from the drives again, apparently one of my drives is faster than the other as well.

Two disks from the same TV series.

One of the drives is still doing 100-250 fps on the rip, while the other drive is doing about 250-300 fps (The regular DVD-Burner is reading faster than the Blu-Ray burner, despite being a year older. They're mounted to different controllers/chipsets on the mobo (one is intel branded, the other jmicro) so that might have something to do with it. I'll have to experiment more and might do some cable swapping of one of the controllers is significantly faster (my sata drive is on the same controller as the "slow" optical drive.)).

Hmm the "fast" drive is going to finish the rip first, even though I created it's queue after creating and starting the queue on the "slow" drive. It already caught up and passed it.

From an ISO on my SSD drive, I got 300-350fps
 
2013-03-09 06:06:31 AM

lordargent: One of the drives is still doing 100-250 fps on the rip, while the other drive is doing about 250-300 fps


I've met all kinds of oddities when it comes to optical drives vs sata controllers (mostly with the first gen sata1 controllers though), it could just be that the combo drive's DVD reading mechanisms are just slower because they had to be built to co-exist with the completely different laser for the blurays.  I think the stat for DVD reading is 150K*read speed so say an upper end 40x is still only ~6MB/sec which is yawnable to even a sata1 controller however yah I've met situations (especially with the nvidia ones) where if I had a raid on the controller and I put an optical on it as well the optical's performance would nose dive.  The fix being having the optical on a different controller like the usual spare 2 port jmicron.
 
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