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(Duluth News Tribune)   Apparently deciding that his application to join the League of Supervillians just wasn't strong enough; WI Gov. tries to sneak language into a budget bill that will make it easier for "rent to own" shops to rip off the mathematically illiterate   (duluthnewstribune.com) divider line 271
    More: Sad, League of Supervillians, Wisconsin Gov., government budget, Wisconsin, Rent-A-Center, Glenn Grothman, Milwaukee County, Scott Walker  
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13053 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Mar 2013 at 12:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-05 01:01:34 PM  

untaken_name: It's not just interest - you have to factor in that you're responsible for property tax and upkeep during the life of the mortgage as well. I was more going for the 3x what it's worth part than the not up front part, anyway.


O.I.C.  I thought you were implying getting ripped off by the mortgage people. Sorry
 
2013-03-05 01:03:35 PM  

Silverstaff: Magorn: The new federal Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has a whole branch devoted to protecting servicemembers from the complex ecosystem of financial products and services that have grown up to rip off gullible service people (Holly Petraeus of all people is in charge). They are seen as uniquely vulnerable population like children or the elderly because fo the frequency with which they are preyed on. It's sickening, really when you realize how many business in this country have been created with the sole purpose of ripping off soldiers.

From a scumbags perspective, Soldiers make great victims:

Salaried job with an employment contract, you know they are going to get the money to pay you back and Security Clearance requirements mean that many/most servicemembers can't afford to tank their own credit rating mean dollar signs to predatory lenders and other unscrupulous businessmen.


That's actually the problem the US Military will not allow you to default on debts (they'll take it out of your paycheck)  and having too many debts/garnishements makes it diffuclt to get a security clearance which farks with overall military readiness as qualified, expensively trained soldiers can suddenly be inelegible to do their jobs.   From the Pentagon's perspective this isn't just a welfare of the troops thing, but an actual national security issue.
 
2013-03-05 01:04:20 PM  

busy chillin': my cousin got this approval. Awesome right? She passed on the chance.

[s21.postimage.org image 850x637]


$1000 loan from a Tribe at 349.05% interest paying $141.11 for 24 months.

= $3,386.64


I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was a commercial on recently that was similar... I think it was for a $10,000 loan, and by the time you were done' you'd paid off something like $60,000, all in the course of about 5 farking years...
 
2013-03-05 01:06:03 PM  

Generation_D: Is it government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?


Stupid people aren't being protected, "from themselves." They're being protected from greedy, unethical assholes who would try to take advantage of the fact that they're stupid to cheat them out of money. And do you really have to ask whether or not that's a good idea? If so, you don't need to be voting.
 
2013-03-05 01:07:36 PM  

wildcardjack: Oh god, something just snapped inside my head...

I think I'm going to buy stock in companies that mistreat and take advantage of consumers. Apple might not be king five years from now but people are still going to be stupid.


Is this a troll post?  It's gotta be.
 
2013-03-05 01:07:43 PM  
This story had me absolutely shocked to the core. I am so confused, black is white, up is down, etc.

Not surprised that Walker would try to help out a sleazeball industry (even though Dittybopper's story above shows they are not 100% evil), but the fact that Glen Grothman opposes Walker and is thinking the same thing I am. What the hell happened? ARe we through the looking glass here?
 
rpm
2013-03-05 01:08:29 PM  

Mikey1969: I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was a commercial on recently that was similar... I think it was for a $10,000 loan, and by the time you were done' you'd paid off something like $60,000, all in the course of about 5 farking years.


Yeah, or one that I've seen that had $500 fees on a $1000. That's fees, not counting the interest.
 
2013-03-05 01:08:59 PM  

Mikey1969: busy chillin': my cousin got this approval. Awesome right? She passed on the chance.

[s21.postimage.org image 850x637]


$1000 loan from a Tribe at 349.05% interest paying $141.11 for 24 months.

= $3,386.64

I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was a commercial on recently that was similar... I think it was for a $10,000 loan, and by the time you were done' you'd paid off something like $60,000, all in the course of about 5 farking years...


Western Sky. Anyone who uses it, deserves to get scalped.
 
2013-03-05 01:09:26 PM  
If you let corporations grab all the money from the extreme poor, you are still going to be paying for them. You need rules to prevent all the money you are paying to support these poor people from disappearing.
 
2013-03-05 01:10:20 PM  

alltim: i upped my meds-up yours: villians

Does anyone else pronounce this vill-ee-ans like I do?

I thought Supervillians meant people who live in Superville.


From Megamind.. the difference between villains and supervillains?  "Presentation!"
 
2013-03-05 01:10:40 PM  

bluefox3681: Gosling: akula: Not to be a complete asshole, but if somebody isn't going to read the fine print or do some simple math there's ultimately not one thing you can do to keep that person from being taken for every dime they have. If your mission is to keep people from taking advantage of the stupid and lazy you're never going to have a moment's rest. You won't have any success either.

At this point, Scott's finished going after every dime people have and started work on the dimes he thinks they might be able to have in the future.

Um.  I live in Wisconsin and my local and property taxes went down.

Oh, you mean the dimes that the government takes from me and gives to other people?



You're welcome.  I'm glad the money they took from me went to such good use.
 
2013-03-05 01:11:46 PM  

Mikey1969: untaken_name: It's not just interest - you have to factor in that you're responsible for property tax and upkeep during the life of the mortgage as well. I was more going for the 3x what it's worth part than the not up front part, anyway.

O.I.C.  I thought you were implying getting ripped off by the mortgage people. Sorry


No worries.
 
2013-03-05 01:11:54 PM  

Mikey1969: akula: dittybopper: More to the point, though, if you *DO* go to those sorts of places to purchase stuff, you're probably too stupid to understand the significance of the interest rate anyway, or you're in such a dire situation you don't care.

Not to be a complete asshole, but if somebody isn't going to read the fine print or do some simple math there's ultimately not one thing you can do to keep that person from being taken for every dime they have. If your mission is to keep people from taking advantage of the stupid and lazy you're never going to have a moment's rest. You won't have any success either.

FTFA:
Rent-to-own businesses insist their contracts aren't credit transactions, and the state's consumer act shouldn't apply to them.

Opponents contend the businesses prey on the poor and charge exorbitant interest rates similar to payday lenders; they maintain people deserve to see exactly what they're paying for when they sign rent-to-own contracts.

In other words, most people are just trying to get the farking fine print in there in the first place. The RTO places are claiming that they don't have to disclose anywhere that in the long run, you pay a minimum of 3x what the item is actually worth.

Jesus, nobody seems to have read the second paragraph here...


Well, they tell you what your payment is, and they tell you how long until you own it.

If you aren't smart enough to realize that a $50 payment for 24 months to own an item worth $400 retail isn't a good deal, then disclosing the actual interest rate really isn't going to help.
 
2013-03-05 01:12:22 PM  

DirkTheDaring: Western Sky. Anyone who uses it, deserves to get scalped.


Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...
 
2013-03-05 01:13:46 PM  

dittybopper: If you aren't smart enough to realize that a $50 payment for 24 months to own an item worth $400 retail isn't a good deal, then disclosing the actual interest rate really isn't going to help.


Then why waste time with the legislation? Of course it makes a difference.
 
2013-03-05 01:14:51 PM  

Generation_D: Is it government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?


is it the governments job to make it easier for the morally abject to prey on the stupid?
 
amo [TotalFark]
2013-03-05 01:15:35 PM  

busy chillin': my cousin got this approval. Awesome right? She passed on the chance.

[s21.postimage.org image 850x637]


$1000 loan from a Tribe at 349.05% interest paying $141.11 for 24 months.

= $3,386.64


And now you know how easy it is to misread these things, even if you are financially literate. It's $141.11 for each of 24 bi-weekly payments.
 
2013-03-05 01:17:12 PM  
Lots of folks are seemingly defending the RTO shops under the guise of "well, if the idiots who rent stuff are too stupid to understand, blah blah blah" which I find disturbing. There is NOTHING good about the way these shiatheads run a business. Just because some people are easier to rip off than others doesn't mean businesses should be allowed to rip 'em off, let alone encouraged to do so. Their whole business model is predatory and for that alone, I wish every last one of 'em would go out of business. Maybe the majority of their customers are clueless about interest rates, ultimate cost of a good, etc. That doesn't excuse the fact that these greedy shiats are bloodsucking vampires when it comes to the poor.

As far as Walker inserting that little clause into his bill, wow, that's a shock. Mister "I don't give a rip" for the poor strikes again. What a complete ass he is. Can't believe the morons in my home state re-elected him after the recall election. They deserve whatever they get ...and he's just the man to do it to them.
 
2013-03-05 01:18:17 PM  

Krymson Tyde: Christ, what an asshole.


Sigh...and no one worth a fark could've gone up against this guy?!  Hell, Elizabeth Warren wanted to run against Scott Brown in MA and WON.  You mean to tell me that no one in Wisconsin with a decent enough image to run against this fark and...

...whatever, the Wisconsin Democrats deserve what they got by not trying to find someone that was passionate enough to run against him.
 
2013-03-05 01:18:41 PM  

DirkTheDaring: Mikey1969: busy chillin': my cousin got this approval. Awesome right? She passed on the chance.

[s21.postimage.org image 850x637]


$1000 loan from a Tribe at 349.05% interest paying $141.11 for 24 months.

= $3,386.64

I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was a commercial on recently that was similar... I think it was for a $10,000 loan, and by the time you were done' you'd paid off something like $60,000, all in the course of about 5 farking years...

Western Sky. Anyone who uses it, deserves to get scalped.


is that the place that says something to the effect of "sure, the money's a little more expensive than a payday advance"?  cause i mean...wow...and they actually say something like that.
 
2013-03-05 01:19:37 PM  

Rwa2play: Krymson Tyde: Christ, what an asshole.

Sigh...and no one worth a fark could've gone up against this guy?!  Hell, Elizabeth Warren wanted to run against Scott Brown in MA and WON.  You mean to tell me that no one in Wisconsin with a decent enough image to run against this fark and...

...whatever, the Wisconsin Democrats deserve what they got by not trying to find someone that was passionate enough to run against him.


Forgot to add: If Jesse Ventura could run as an independent against the established parties in Minnesota and WIN the governor's seat, then Wisconsin Dems had no excuse....seriously.
 
2013-03-05 01:21:28 PM  

DirkTheDaring: Western Sky. Anyone who uses it, deserves to get scalped.


That sounds about right...
 
2013-03-05 01:21:39 PM  

amo: busy chillin': 

And now you know how easy it is to misread these things, even if you are financially literate. It's $141.11 for each of 24 bi-weekly payments.


so $6,773.28?

holy sheeeeit!
 
2013-03-05 01:23:53 PM  

VendorXeno: Generation_D: Is it government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?

Stupid people aren't being protected, "from themselves." They're being protected from greedy, unethical assholes who would try to take advantage of the fact that they're stupid to cheat them out of money. And do you really have to ask whether or not that's a good idea? If so, you don't need to be voting.


It's a bad idea to do that.

Why?

Because the people in question don't learn a lesson.

You will always have greedy, unethical assholes.  *ALWAYS*.

Having said that, I fail to see how this actually protects anyone.  They have to disclose to you your monthly or weekly payment, and they have to disclose to you how many payments you need to make.  That's not necessarily a law, per se, but it would have to be spelled out in the contract, otherwise it's not really a contract.

If you can't do a simple multiplication calculation of PAYMENT X TERM = COST then telling you the actual interest rate is worthless, because you won't understand the implications of it or the math involved in the first place.

The only thing this actually does is create more paperwork.  It *SOUNDS* like a good idea, but in practice it's one more thing Cletus and Faylene will pass over with glazed eyes and slack jaws, signing without really understanding, on the way to paying $2,000 for a $400 laptop computifier.
 
2013-03-05 01:24:39 PM  

VendorXeno: dittybopper: If you aren't smart enough to realize that a $50 payment for 24 months to own an item worth $400 retail isn't a good deal, then disclosing the actual interest rate really isn't going to help.

Then why waste time with the legislation? Of course it makes a difference.


Yes, it will result in fewer dead trees, because the paperwork will be less.
 
2013-03-05 01:24:47 PM  
Will the have any effect on Rent-A-Wheel, or is that even a viable business in Wisconsin?
 
2013-03-05 01:24:55 PM  
"Some critics contend the businesses charge interest rates three to four times higher than credit card buyers pay"

Rent to own places charge interest?  I thought they charged a flat rate. Granted a very exspensive flat rate, but still a flat rate. ???

Is the Govenor making the stores compare thier prices to what it would cost if the customer was to buy it?  If so, that' bull shiat.
 
2013-03-05 01:25:58 PM  

Phineas: Generation_D: Is it government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?

Pretty much came here to say this.   If you don't like the terms, don't sign the contract.  If the terms of the contract are ridiculous and the fees exorbitant , then people will stop utilizing the services.  People stop utilizing the service, company goes out of business.

If you want to change it, let capitalism play out.  If you run your business in such a way that makes it unattractive to consumers, you will go out of business.  If your customers are stupid, then you stand to rake in the $$$.

Government intervention on behalf of the stupid has become pretty standard though, which is why liberals have flourished.


and if we were a pure capitalistic society this would make sense, however that kind of society does not live long as all the capital is sucked up by charletons and ner'do wells

we have a government that ensures the flow of capital by "greasing the skids" with fairness
 
2013-03-05 01:26:51 PM  

busy chillin': my cousin got this approval. Awesome right? She passed on the chance.

[s21.postimage.org image 850x637]


$1000 loan from a Tribe at 349.05% interest paying $141.11 for 24 months.

= $3,386.64


Says $141.11 bi-weekly, so 12 months (unless they're using the twice a week definition of bi-weekly, but we won't go there).  You'd be better off going to Vinnie down at the social club for the loan.

Generation_D: Is it government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?


I thought the libertarian philosophy was that with perfect information everyone would be a rational actor and wouldn't fall for these scams.  Shouldn't there be some requirements to spell out exactly what you're doing and therefore reduce the amount of all these stupid people, or is the premise just a bunch of bullshiat?
 
2013-03-05 01:27:16 PM  
Am I the only one left that can remember reading "The Jungle" in high school?
This is the same farking thing well, except it's government sponsored.
 
2013-03-05 01:27:36 PM  

busy chillin': Yep, because a lottery ticket costs a dollar at the register and then a few months later they send you a bill for $75.


Because Lord knows the ignorant only buy one.

you are a puppet: Forget it Jake, It's Tardtown


Indeed it is.
 
2013-03-05 01:30:48 PM  
If we want to protect illiterates from poor financial decisions, we should prevent people from borrowing 100k for an art history degree from private universities in the nation's most expensive cities.
 
2013-03-05 01:31:18 PM  

BrianGriffin: Lots of folks are seemingly defending the RTO shops under the guise of "well, if the idiots who rent stuff are too stupid to understand, blah blah blah" which I find disturbing. There is NOTHING good about the way these shiatheads run a business.


Then pass a law that limits the amount of interest and fees they can charge.   *THAT* would help protect stupid people from being taken advantage of.  It would also protect them from being able to buy most of that stuff, but hey, can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs, right?

Best part is that it would encourage people to save money for those purchases.  If you can afford to spend $50 a month to rent a laptop, you can save $50 a month and have enough to buy one in much less time, and it likely wouldn't be obsolete when you finish paying for it.

Disclosing the interest rate when a simple multiplication will show it's a piss-poor deal is mere window dressing.  "Look at me, I'm helping the POOR and STUPID people".  It doesn't actually help.
 
2013-03-05 01:33:44 PM  

navylostboy: ner'do wells


You mean "ne'er-do-wells", right?  Because as a nerdo, I take offense at being lumped in with folks like that.
 
amo [TotalFark]
2013-03-05 01:33:44 PM  

busy chillin': amo: busy chillin': 

And now you know how easy it is to misread these things, even if you are financially literate. It's $141.11 for each of 24 bi-weekly payments.

so $6,773.28?

holy sheeeeit!


Your first money total was correct, but not the time frame. It's still only 24 payments, totalling $3386.64, it's just the payment is twice as often, twice a month, instead of once, so it's only 12 months. But even I had to read it twice to catch it. It's a good reminder that there are people dumber than you and I.
 
2013-03-05 01:34:22 PM  

ringersol: Generation_D: "Is it the government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?"

No.  It's the government's job to protect the free market from opportunists, charlatans, hucksters, the usurious, etc.  The functional free market, the one that returns results for people other than snake-oil salesmen, monopolists and robber-barons, is not natural. It exists only because of regulations that ensure things like a reasonable expectation of fairness, transparency between the participants, no fraud, etc.  Absent those attributes, you get shiat like snake-oil, balloon payments and plaster of paris in your bread and people just withdraw from the market as much as is possible.

So it really has nothing to do with the stupid or the poor.  It has to to do with the smart people who will take one look at a rental market that has devolved into 'maximization' schemes and tricks and catches and say "fark that" and opt-out, harming net economic activity.


[slow clap] That deserves a "smart" vote.
 
2013-03-05 01:35:01 PM  

LargeCanine: So?

We should stop treating people like children who need the gov't to act like a parent.


Having consumer protections in place that require a business to disclose their terms up-front in an understandable manner isn't treating people like children, it's preventing unscrupulous con artists from ripping people off. Nobody is suggesting that the government tell these people that they can't be stupid and get hosed by a rent-to-own store. It's still their decision to make, the law simply makes sure that they have all the information they need in order to make it. If they still choose to make a poor decision, then that's their problem. The ONLY reason to be against requiring this kind of disclosure is to allow dishonest business practices designed to intentionally deceive people.
 
2013-03-05 01:35:10 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: busy chillin': Yep, because a lottery ticket costs a dollar at the register and then a few months later they send you a bill for $75.

Because Lord knows the ignorant only buy one.


Yep, because they buy $25 in tickets and then get a bill for $1,875
 
2013-03-05 01:35:18 PM  

Ring of Fire: Every time I see a picture of Scott Walker his hair makes his head look crooked, then all I can think about is that corner from Anna Nicole Smith.


Anna Nicole Smith didn't have corners, she had curves...
 
2013-03-05 01:36:30 PM  

Mugato: No, Rick Scott has the market cornered on cartoonish super-villain governors.


My God, it looks like a penis with eyes!
 
2013-03-05 01:36:56 PM  

amo: busy chillin': amo: busy chillin': 

And now you know how easy it is to misread these things, even if you are financially literate. It's $141.11 for each of 24 bi-weekly payments.

so $6,773.28?

holy sheeeeit!

Your first money total was correct, but not the time frame. It's still only 24 payments, totalling $3386.64, it's just the payment is twice as often, twice a month, instead of once, so it's only 12 months. But even I had to read it twice to catch it. It's a good reminder that there are people dumber than you and I.


I see. Yeah, I would rather borrow from Vinnie and get my knees broken.
 
2013-03-05 01:38:09 PM  
WI Gov. tries to sneak language into a budget bill that will make it easier for "rent to own" shops to rip off the mathematically illiterate

...although how much easier can it become, really?
 
2013-03-05 01:38:39 PM  
What does not disclosing interest rates have to do with mathematical illiteracy?
 
2013-03-05 01:39:28 PM  

dittybopper: It's a bad idea to do that.

Why?

Because the people in question don't learn a lesson.

You will always have greedy, unethical assholes.  *ALWAYS*.


Learning a lesson is not the point of the regulation. Nor is it to eliminate all greedy assholes. It's to "regulate" them, to limit their behavior, to take away easy routes of exploitation. 

Your subsequent argument, that a person with this extra information is in no way improved because they didn't get it the first time from the more complex explanation shows such an amazing and profound lack of understanding regarding people and thinking that it shocks me. There is no on/off switch to being smart enough to grasp a concept. The more data, and the simpler the data, the easier it's going to be for many people to clue in, consciously, onto a concept they might not immediately be consciously aware of. That's why these agencies don't want to give them the simple, direct information. That's why there's any attempt to remove this legislation. If it were really as meaningless as you [have to ignore every rule of psychology or marketing to] believe then Walker would be wasting everyone's time even bothering with it. Of course, he doesn't think he is, and the rent to own places don't think he is. Why do you think he is? Because you haven't really thought about it.
 
2013-03-05 01:39:48 PM  

busy chillin': amo: busy chillin':

And now you know how easy it is to misread these things, even if you are financially literate. It's $141.11 for each of 24 bi-weekly payments.

so $6,773.28?

holy sheeeeit!


Vinne Da Mook, who's currently doing 20 years at Sing-Sing for loan-sharking, just read that and said "motherfarker"
 
2013-03-05 01:42:58 PM  

Silverstaff: We have a word for being "mathematically illiterate", the word is "innumerate".

Look it up, actual word.


And a useful one, as well. It was coined by Doug Hofstadter, back before a lot of you were born, I'd wager. Later, John Allen Paulos wrote a very good book, Innumeracy, describing the defect and detailing its effects upon our society.

As for TFA, the hubbub over "interest rates" just drags the discussion into a quagmire of "that word - I do not think it means what you think it means." What is needed is a simple requirement that ALL CONTRACTS for sale or rental of items contain the following statement: "The item you are acquiring has a (retail price)/(estimated value) of $xxx.xx. If you make all payments per this contract, you will have paid a total of $yyyy.yy." Anyone who argues with that requirement, I can GUARANTEE is not someone with whom you want to business.
 
2013-03-05 01:43:28 PM  
The capitalism theory is that perfect information + competition = optimal results for consumers. This is used by libertarians as to why things do not need to be micromanaged or outright be taken over by the government, but I don't think it is one their core beliefs. Their core belief seems to be that government interference is bad. But, competition and good information have proven to break down fairly often in the absence of government oversight.

Personally I would rather the government focus on getting good information to the consumers instead of outright banning products and services (most of the time).  When the math is at all hard this seems to be an impossible task; it seems you can't make consumers do the math.  So, sometimes putting reasonable limits on things seems the only way to keep them from getting out of hand.
 
2013-03-05 01:45:10 PM  

busy chillin': ep, because they buy $25 in tickets and then get a bill for $1,875


No, you just keep buying $25 worth day in and day out.
 
2013-03-05 01:47:31 PM  

Lurk sober post drunk: DirkTheDaring: Mikey1969: busy chillin': my cousin got this approval. Awesome right? She passed on the chance.

[s21.postimage.org image 850x637]


$1000 loan from a Tribe at 349.05% interest paying $141.11 for 24 months.

= $3,386.64

I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was a commercial on recently that was similar... I think it was for a $10,000 loan, and by the time you were done' you'd paid off something like $60,000, all in the course of about 5 farking years...

Western Sky. Anyone who uses it, deserves to get scalped.

is that the place that says something to the effect of "sure, the money's a little more expensive than a payday advance"?  cause i mean...wow...and they actually say something like that.


They don't even say "a little". The phrase they use in the commercial is "Yes, the money is expensive".

Because it is.
 
2013-03-05 01:47:34 PM  

Generation_D: Is it government's job to protect the stupid from themselves?


Yes, since the 1930s at least on the Federal level.
 
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