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(LA Times)   911 dispatcher "Is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?" Nurse at senior living center "Um, not at this time"   (latimesblogs.latimes.com) divider line 132
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23487 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Mar 2013 at 9:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-03 09:20:45 PM
13 votes:
The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather.  CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.
2013-03-03 09:18:48 PM
12 votes:
Unbelievable. I don't care what my workplace policy is. If that lady was Full Code and not DNR, I'm a nurse, i should do CPR. I'd rather lose my job than my license.
2013-03-03 09:26:36 PM
9 votes:
Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.
2013-03-03 09:20:35 PM
9 votes:

Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.


A nurse in a medical facility should already have that training.
2013-03-03 09:23:07 PM
7 votes:

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


FTA:

The patient did not have a do-not-resuscitate order, according to KGET-TV.

Helps to read the article, eh?
2013-03-03 09:22:52 PM
7 votes:
FTA: Bayless' daughter told KGET that she was a nurse and was satisfied with her mother's care at Glenwood Gardens, the station reported.

IIIInteresting.
2013-03-03 09:21:11 PM
7 votes:
People don't become doctors or nurses, or join the medical profession at all these day because they want to help people and save lives. These days, they do it because they want lots of money.

It's a disgrace that we even use the words "nurse" and "doctor" to describe these greedy animals. They bring dishonor to the words.
2013-03-03 09:16:59 PM
7 votes:
You guys busy privatizing your death panels down there?
2013-03-03 09:29:42 PM
6 votes:
I am sure a breating 84 year old is much better off without a nurse slamming on her chest.  Besides, CPR works less than 1% of the time.
2013-03-03 09:21:12 PM
6 votes:
If I'm reading this bit on the California good samaritan law correctly, it looks to me that the nursing home could've been sued to the eyeballs - not for trying the CPR, but if something else went wrong somewhere along the line.
2013-03-03 09:20:12 PM
6 votes:
I'm going to sound cold here, but the woman was in her late 80s. Sometimes its just a person's time to go.

The operator sounds like a spaz, from the way she's portrayed in the article. "It's a human being" Yes, and human beings die all the time. You can't be Superman and save everyone all the time.
2013-03-03 09:42:13 PM
5 votes:
http://comfortcarechoices.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=artic l e&id=59

How successful is CPR?
Myth: That CPR is a simple procedure to revive a stopped heart and helps most everyone.  This is a TV perpetuated myth as evidenced by one study which found that on three popular prime time TV shows, 75% of patients survived cardiac arrest with 67% leaving hospital. [Diem SJ, et al. NEJM 1996]

Reality: CPR is a harsh procedure usually incompatible with a peaceful death - for those adults in hospital who are over age 70, only 2-17% will survive to be discharged and half of them have a worsened quality of life or are worse than before being resuscitated and regret having CPR.  [(1) Murphy DJ.  Outcomes of CPR in the elderly. Ann Intern Med. 1989; (2) Waisel DB.  The CPR-not-indicated order:  futility revisited.  Ann Intern Med. 1995.  (3) Brindley PG. Predictors of survival following in-hospital adult CPR. CMAJ 2002.  (4) Peberdy MA. CPR of adults in the hospital. Resuscitation. 2003.  (5) Swor RA. Does advanced age matter in outcomes after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest in community-dwelling adults? Acad Emerg Med. 2000.]

For those in nursing homes, the attempt to resuscitate has an even worse record with no one surviving in one large survey. [(1) Gordon M. Poor outcome of on-site CPR in a multi-level geriatric facility. J Am Geriatr Soc 1993.  (2) Benkendorf R. Outcomes of cardiac arrest in the nursing home: destiny or futility? Prehosp Emerg Care. 1997.]
2013-03-03 09:26:23 PM
5 votes:

AirForceVet: Why bother calling 911 in the first place?

Guess I'll scratch that senior center off my list of retirement homes.


I could go for a place with that much restraint, if I got that old (exceedingly unlikely).  Besides being disindicated for a breathing person, basically no 87-year-old is going to survive the year of rehab from breaking every rib in her body, which would be the outcome from any CPR procedure that's worth the bother.

Why call 911?  Well, she's dying, and if she didn't write a DNR, it's easier for the hospital to deal with that.
2013-03-03 09:34:57 PM
4 votes:
I read this story earlier today and immediately had some PTSD type flashback to my EMT-Paramedic days. Holy shiat are nursing home nurses worthless. I have a fairly decent sample size as I worked in a few different cities of varying sizes in a couple of different states...I can't say that I met one that was genuinely helpful or competent.

In the hospitals, there were all kinds of good nurses, but never in the nursing homes. I wouldn't put my worst enemy in one.
2013-03-03 09:22:21 PM
4 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: I'm going to sound cold here, but the woman was in her late 80s. Sometimes its just a person's time to go.

The operator sounds like a spaz, from the way she's portrayed in the article. "It's a human being" Yes, and human beings die all the time. You can't be Superman and save everyone all the time.


The operator was asking a *nurse* to perform CPR...not open-heart surgery.

But, yeah, that's just an absurd request, huh?
2013-03-03 09:19:42 PM
4 votes:
as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail
2013-03-03 09:16:41 PM
4 votes:
Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.
2013-03-03 09:09:40 PM
4 votes:

Amos Quito: FTA: "When Halvorson asked the nurse if she was going to let the woman die, the nurse said, "That's why we called 911."


So, YES, then?


Why bother calling 911 in the first place?

Guess I'll scratch that senior center off my list of retirement homes.
2013-03-03 10:19:17 PM
3 votes:

James F. Campbell: FTA: Bayless' daughter told KGET that she was a nurse and was satisfied with her mother's care at Glenwood Gardens, the station reported.

IIIInteresting.


Yep. Sounds like there is more to this than the paper is reporting, either a large inheritance or a woman who was dying and had an informal DNR that the family was on board with.
2013-03-03 10:10:35 PM
3 votes:

Spaghetti Eatin' Goombah: Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

I'm guessing further information will show that the 87 year old resident had other issues that would have made it a moot point anyways.  It's not like simply doing CPR saves everyone.

I found a guy lying next to my neighbor's house (it was the pest control guy).  No pulse, no breathing, no heartbeat, ashen gray in color.  911 dispatcher talked me through CPR (had never done it before, but sort of new the basics) which I performed on the guy until the EMTs arrived.

Dude died.


Dude was dead when you found him.
2013-03-03 09:51:41 PM
3 votes:
The nurse needs to lose her license, and the facility needs some serious sanctions if not being shut down
2013-03-03 09:39:46 PM
3 votes:

fusillade762: Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail

I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??


So the rest home can advertise that they always have a nurse on staff, 24/7.  Most people won't see the fine print that says the nurse will do nothing in an emergency.
2013-03-03 09:36:18 PM
3 votes:
So, if I was the family, I would sue the 911 dispatcher for telling someone to start CPR when someone is still breathing.

Good Samaritan Laws mean NOTHING if you are trained (or should have been trained) and do it wrong.  Heck even California knows this where a survivor sued the person who took her out of a burning car because her actions caused her injuries. (not the car crash, and nevermind that she probably would have suffered a fiery death had she remained in the car)
2013-03-03 09:32:20 PM
3 votes:

Person: Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.


Exactly. Nothing like fake outrage from all those who fail to read the entire article and connect logical thoughts. I'm sure we'll here about this on the news for the next week.

/welcometofark.jpg?
2013-03-03 09:28:54 PM
3 votes:
"She's yelling at me," she said of Halvorson, "and saying we have to have one of our residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed, and I'm not going to do that, make that call."


I hate everything about you.
2013-03-03 09:27:16 PM
3 votes:
Can I please have the freedom to choose how and when I die and not rot to death in one of these depressing shiatholes they call a retirement community? That'd be great, thanks
2013-03-03 09:25:12 PM
3 votes:

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


This.  They still call 911 because it's a helluva lot easier when they die in a hospital.  Most of those poor old farts have been circling the drain for years and are quite ready to go.

/ my mom has a DNR, for example.
/ I have pretty specific instructions in a living will, and all you you should think about it if you don't already have one...
2013-03-03 09:24:19 PM
3 votes:
Seems like a stupid policy.  Are they worried that their staff will do it wrong?  Is it a liability thing?  I'd have to imagine they could should hire people that are qualified to do things like this, especially being a senior living center and all.

Also: The elderly woman was identified by KGET-TV as 87-year-old Lorraine Bayless. She died Tuesday at Mercy Hospital Southwest, KGET reported.

It's hard for me to blame someone for deciding not to throw away their job (possibly career) to keep an 87y/o "alive" for a couple more years at most.  If this had been a child, or a healthy person that should have some time left on the clock, I'd be pretty disgusted.
2013-03-03 09:20:39 PM
3 votes:
Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".
2013-03-03 09:18:47 PM
3 votes:
I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

I'm guessing further information will show that the 87 year old resident had other issues that would have made it a moot point anyways.  It's not like simply doing CPR saves everyone.
2013-03-04 12:07:55 AM
2 votes:

BafflerMeal: AJisaff: djh0101010: AJisaff: CPR on a living patient is a good way to kill them. The lady was breathing. CPR is the wrong treatment. Turn up the O2, maybe even bag her, but the dispatcher was wrong telling the nurse to do CPR on a living patient.

i am sorry, but where the hell did you get trained?? CPR is exactly what is performed on a choking casualty, and doesn't kill them. i agree that CPR on an elderly patient will probably not have a positive outcome, but the lazy biatch didn't even try. Most likely she was going through agonal respirations, not proper breaths. i posted this already, and it seems pretty self explanatory even in laymans' terms...

You seem to be confusing the Heimlich Maneuver with cardiac compressions.  Totally different mechanism, different action, different part of the body, and for a different reason.  If you're doing CPR on a choking patient, you missed the "airway" part and jumped all the way up to "circulation".

um.. no, actually... if a choking patient becomes unconscious, we go to chest compressions.  and the heimlich manoever on it's own has been outdated for about two years now.  we do 5 back blows to relieve the laryngospasm, then 5 abdominal thrusts, until it is cleared, or they become unconscious...  at which point you start chest compressions, check the airway, attempt vents, and clear obstructions if found.
comressions and vents ARE CPR.

Breaths, thrusts, and back until something else is needed.  I sure as hell hope you guys are not doing compressions on someone with a pulse.  Unconscious != pulseless.


No no, didn't you see all the "medics" up there saying you should be doing CPR for choking victims (and/or 87 year old ladies)? Don't be a fool, CPR is appropriate for everyone, and even laypeople should give it a shot.
2013-03-03 11:55:36 PM
2 votes:
I'm waiting to see what BronyMedic says.

But regardless of what he says, I waws thinking of having Do Not Resuscitate tattooed on my chest; now I think it should be "Let me die, fool!" tattooed all over my face.

At 37 I had to quit smoking because 1) I was having trouble trouble breathing and 2) this hot chick would let me move in but she was allergic to cigarette smoke (and she is). So I took to drink instead. (And once I became a crazy drunk after 9 years we broke up: that I'd rather drink than screw is not a reflection on her, I swear.)

It's not length of life but the quality of it: if I somehow make it to 60 (10 more years) I'll take up meth and Russian Roulette. The only reason I'd bother sticking around that long is my dog loves me and based on his breed & size he's got maybe 10 more years. Y'all might scoff but I never had a real reason to live before.

But still: if there's ever any indication that "this dude might live but he'll be farked up" then SMOTHER ME WITH A PILLOW!! What good am I if I can't walk my dog till he's tired and then carry him home?
2013-03-03 11:29:12 PM
2 votes:

djh0101010: JMacPA: RandomRandom: JMacPA: Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious. 2% is better than 0%. JUST DO IT.

2% to 3% on a average human, not a health compromised nursing home patient.

As was posted above, one study found ZERO instances of success when performing CPR on nursing home patients.  Zero isn't better than 0%, it is 0%.

That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader?  What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?

Here's as good of a place to jump in as any.  If she's the typical little old ladies, those ribs are FRAGILE.  Like, bag of potato chips fragile.  Since the purpose of chest compressions in CPR is to circulate blood, if the patient's heart is still running, it's much better to let it do its job. 

CPR on a living patient is a good way to kill them.  The lady was breathing.  CPR is the wrong treatment.  Turn up the O2, maybe even bag her, but the dispatcher was wrong telling the nurse to do CPR on a living patient.


Yep.  CPR is done on folks who are clinically dead.  They may not be biologically dead yet, but clinically they are (excluding the bit about state laws regarding who says 'call it' for legal purposes)

I have never lost a patient through CPR.  The use of CPR indicates they were dead when I started.  With that framework understood, I've never 'gained' a patient either.  They've all been dead when I started, and dead when I was done.
2013-03-03 11:24:17 PM
2 votes:

JMacPA: RandomRandom: JMacPA: Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious. 2% is better than 0%. JUST DO IT.

2% to 3% on a average human, not a health compromised nursing home patient.

As was posted above, one study found ZERO instances of success when performing CPR on nursing home patients.  Zero isn't better than 0%, it is 0%.

That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader?  What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?


Here's as good of a place to jump in as any.  If she's the typical little old ladies, those ribs are FRAGILE.  Like, bag of potato chips fragile.  Since the purpose of chest compressions in CPR is to circulate blood, if the patient's heart is still running, it's much better to let it do its job. 

CPR on a living patient is a good way to kill them.  The lady was breathing.  CPR is the wrong treatment.  Turn up the O2, maybe even bag her, but the dispatcher was wrong telling the nurse to do CPR on a living patient.
2013-03-03 10:46:30 PM
2 votes:
I would not be at all surprised if this "nurse" is actually no more than a CNA (certified nursing assistant).  Nursing homes use mostly CNAs, with a scant handful of LPNs / LVNs, and hardly any actual RNs.

Also, nursing homes suck.  I was stuck in one for three weeks once, and it was pure hell.  How bad was it?  Watching a Lawrence Welk rerun on a Saturday night was a high point.
2013-03-03 10:16:38 PM
2 votes:

Fell In Love With a Chair: djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather. CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.

THIIIIISSSSSS
That was the first farking thing I thought when I read this article. Why in fark's name would you do CPR ON SOMEONE WHOSE HEART IS BEATING AND THEY ARE STILL BREATHING?
You DO NOT do chest compressions on someone whose heart is still beating!
You DO NOT do rescue breathing on someone who is still farking breathing on their own!

The funny part is, I haven't had a CPR course EVER and I farking know this!


That's odd, I've done CPR on a person who was breathing and had a heart beat. But I guess you would know better than those of us in emergency services
2013-03-03 10:09:46 PM
2 votes:

RandomRandom: JMacPA: Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious. 2% is better than 0%. JUST DO IT.

2% to 3% on a average human, not a health compromised nursing home patient.

As was posted above, one study found ZERO instances of success when performing CPR on nursing home patients.  Zero isn't better than 0%, it is 0%.


That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader?  What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?
2013-03-03 10:09:02 PM
2 votes:
Between the transcript and the whole demanding CPR be performed on someone who was still breathing, I'm gonna go with: the dispatcher is a bit of a spaz.
2013-03-03 10:03:36 PM
2 votes:

Fell In Love With a Chair: djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather. CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.

THIIIIISSSSSS
That was the first farking thing I thought when I read this article. Why in fark's name would you do CPR ON SOMEONE WHOSE HEART IS BEATING AND THEY ARE STILL BREATHING?
You DO NOT do chest compressions on someone whose heart is still beating!
You DO NOT do rescue breathing on someone who is still farking breathing on their own!

The funny part is, I haven't had a CPR course EVER and I farking know this!


Actually you can.  Slightly bruised and alive is better than dead.  Every time. Right now, at least where I am it's if there's no breathing you don't even bother checking for a pulse you just go for the compressions. The problem is people like YOU scaring off passer-bys through indecision.  Even if you're having trouble telling whether they're breathing or not go for it.  It's not going to make dead any worse.

Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious.  2% is better than 0%.  JUST DO IT.
2013-03-03 10:03:18 PM
2 votes:
Recently did a networking project for a nursing home chain.  All I can say is, please bring on the death panels.  Because at the point that I need to be put in one of those places, I would rather be dead on my own terms.
2013-03-03 09:57:58 PM
2 votes:

RandomRandom: CPR doesn't work very well, not well at all.

Well, it does sometimes work - but does very little lasting good. IIRC, one month after having received CPR, less than 8% of of CPR recipients are alive, most of those are in a persistent vegetative state.

3% of CPR recipients have a good outcome one month out. 3 farking percent, and most of those aren't infirm nursing home patients.

/In this case, wouldn't have mattered, CPR doesn't work.


Those numbers are from all incidents of type of arrest, including when the person's collapse wasn't witnessed, when CPR didn't start until first responders got there, etc.

Witnessed in-hospital and witnessed by medical professional have much higher rates of survival, somewhere around 20%.
2013-03-03 09:52:39 PM
2 votes:
CPR doesn't work very well, not well at all.

Well, it does sometimes work - but does very little lasting good. IIRC, one month after having received CPR, less than 8% of of CPR recipients are alive, most of those are in a persistent vegetative state.

3% of CPR recipients have a good outcome one month out. 3 farking percent, and most of those aren't infirm nursing home patients.

/In this case, wouldn't have mattered, CPR doesn't work.
2013-03-03 09:49:06 PM
2 votes:
I once was admitted to a hospital for what I thought would be 1 or 2 days. I was asked if I had a living will and did I want a dnr. I told them to keep me alive until my insurance was exhausted. I spent a month in that place and came out 60 lbs lighter and covered in bed sores..

Then I had to go back to that he'll hole and when they asked me the dnr question, I advised them to pull the plug immediately and OD me on morphine.

Life ain't that good.
2013-03-03 09:47:03 PM
2 votes:
If we're ever going to bring the population down this kind of "heartless callousness" is exactly what we need.

Of course we could teach and encourage birth control in schools starting in 6th grade and make sure abortion is safe, legal and easily obtainable on demand for every pregnant female. Oh, and "doctor assisted suicide," "death with dignity" and/or "voluntary euthanasia" might help too.

But failing those common-sensical measures, yeah, let's stand idly by while somebody's granny keels over. Maybe we can herd everybody over 50 into death camps (starting of course with me after friday). "Boots on the ground" anywhere Islam runs rampant would help too. We might also use subliminal programming to encourage people to gun down strangers at shopping malls, theaters and (even better) elementary schools. After all if we're not going to limit births we should encourage deaths, right? "Viva la muerte!"

I remember when the world's population hit 3 billion, 4 billion people ago; I was entering puberty then. Now I'm almost 50 and you breeders STILL haven't learned restraint. God must love stupid people, He increases them exponentially. After all when we've picked this planet clean we can just move the rich & famous to another planet a few hundred light-years away and start the cycle all over again. AMIRITE?!?!?!!?

/ Drunk and cynical. And constipated.
2013-03-03 09:45:24 PM
2 votes:
So when the person stopped breathing/went unconcious the nurse still didn't perform CPR until the ambulance arrived.
Ridiculous, as, yes CPR has a low (1%) chance of revival on its own, the stuff the paramedics bring in returning a person to life to around 30-40% chance and CPR for 4 to 6 minutes keeps the body and brain oxygenated enough to allow for less overall damage to those organs.
FInally getting to the hospital, your rate of coming back can be raised to 80% and with the cryobaths and other treatment capacities they can mitigate a lot of damage to the body and brain after returning to a state of life.
CPR isn't really for reviving the corpse, its keeping the corpses organs alive long enough for the body to get to improved treatment facilities so that there is a greater capacity for the victim to be revived successfully and with less overall damage.

Whether or not the person would have survived at the hospital isn't the question, the real question is why the nursing home has the policy of not performing CPR, even when the victim does not have a DNR request on file. Also how does this nurse retain her credentials when she fails to perform her duties as a nurse regardless of the policies of the facility that she works at?
2013-03-03 09:44:16 PM
2 votes:

djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather. CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.


THIIIIISSSSSS
That was the first farking thing I thought when I read this article. Why in fark's name would you do CPR ON SOMEONE WHOSE HEART IS BEATING AND THEY ARE STILL BREATHING?
You DO NOT do chest compressions on someone whose heart is still beating!
You DO NOT do rescue breathing on someone who is still farking breathing on their own!

The funny part is, I haven't had a CPR course EVER and I farking know this!
2013-03-03 09:43:09 PM
2 votes:
CPR is surprisingly not very effective:
"So, if an average adult keels over in the street, is found unresponsive and pulseless by a bystander, and is administered CPR while a 911 call is made, the odds that such a person will emerge from the eventualities of the resuscitation effort healthy and with a normally functioning brain are about 2%. "

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/06/cpr-effective.html
2013-03-03 09:40:28 PM
2 votes:

Acravius: Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.


You don't do breaths any more.
2013-03-03 09:39:34 PM
2 votes:

fusillade762: Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail

I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??


To dispense meds, usually. As mentioned in some of the other posts, if the victim was still breathing shallowly, you're not supposed to do CPR. They want that person in the hospital so the doctor can diagnose/prescibe/treat. Not up to the nurse to make that call. Emergency dispatch can have a crew then in under 10 minutes(well they can here), They're allowed to administer oxygen and transport the person to hospital where they can be fully examined.
2013-03-03 09:38:40 PM
2 votes:
International Council of Nurses' Pledge

"In the full knowledge of the task I am undertaking, I promise to take care of the sick with all the skill and understanding I possess, without regard to race, creed, color, politics, or social status, sparing no effort to conserve life, to alleviate suffering, and promote health.

I will respect at all times the dignity and religious beliefs of the patients entrusted in my care, holding in confidence all personal information entrusted to me and refraining from any action which might endanger life or health.

I will endeavor to keep my professional knowledge and skill at the highest level and give loyal support and cooperation to all members of the health team.


Or, you know, not...
2013-03-03 09:35:22 PM
2 votes:

Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail


I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??
2013-03-03 09:27:03 PM
2 votes:
Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.
2013-03-03 09:25:32 PM
2 votes:

djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather.  CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.


I was thinking that exact same thing...it said she was still breathing. Barely, but even so.
2013-03-03 09:22:37 PM
2 votes:

ChrisDe: Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.


More important is the reason behind this--no doubt, a fear of liability.

The lawyers of course don't have to pay for this woman that just died from their actions.
2013-03-03 09:22:01 PM
2 votes:
Business Opportunity: Bakersfield Ice Floe, Inc.
2013-03-03 09:21:46 PM
2 votes:
So, depraved indifference?
2013-03-03 09:19:15 PM
2 votes:

ChrisDe: Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.

She is truly an "Angel of Mercy"
2013-03-03 09:15:11 PM
2 votes:
Well if she didn't wanna die she shouldn't have gotten old!
2013-03-04 01:55:35 PM
1 votes:

The more you eat the more you fart: So...shenanigans for YOU as well, for making assumptions about a situation that you know nothing about. Very apparent that you are completely unfamiliar with what it is like working in a hospital or LTC facility.


Yeah, I don't always get along with hardinparamedic, aka BronyMedic.  Mostly about the role of my union in the EMS field.  But he's pretty damned knowledgeable about the healthcare industry as a whole and EMS specifically.  He's demonstrated this more than once.  I wouldn't go around accusing him of ignorance when it comes to stuff like this.

I think you're missing the word "successfully" in his declaration about no one being successfully sued for performing CPR when indicated.  I'm not prepared to call you a liar about your friend getting sued, but did he lose?  If he won the lawsuit, then he was not successfully sued.  I've been unsuccessfully sued because someone hit the parked ladder truck I was driving, it was a big waste of my time but didn't cost me anything else.
2013-03-04 12:19:34 PM
1 votes:

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Seems like a stupid policy.  Are they worried that their staff will do it wrong?  Is it a liability thing?  I'd have to imagine they could should hire people that are qualified to do things like this, especially being a senior living center and all.

Also: The elderly woman was identified by KGET-TV as 87-year-old Lorraine Bayless. She died Tuesday at Mercy Hospital Southwest, KGET reported.

It's hard for me to blame someone for deciding not to throw away their job (possibly career) to keep an 87y/o "alive" for a couple more years at most.  If this had been a child, or a healthy person that should have some time left on the clock, I'd be pretty disgusted.


As someone who recently lost their father (in the same age range)

FARK YOU you cock. He wanted to live just as much as you do, and yet that life got wasted on a piece of shiat like you. Life is not fair.

May you die a long, lingering death - attended by caring souls just like yourself.
2013-03-04 10:16:01 AM
1 votes:

RandomRandom: Relatively Obscure: None of that being relevant to why this particular person did what they did.

If the reporting is accurate - the only relevant issue is that the 911 dispatcher should never have told the nurse to start CPR on a person who was still breathing.

If the reporting isn't accurate and the patient wasn't breathing, the nurse still shouldn't have performed CPR, because it rarely works on healthy young people, let alone nursing home patients.


No.

First. CPR is indicated with severely abnomal respirations, such as agonal breaths. Suppose she was breathing 4 times a minute. That's not good, and at the very least, her breathing should have been assisted.

Second. The patient certainly had the right to have a DNR if she chose. The article said she did not have a DNR. Believe it or not, you don't get to decide other people's healthcare. It isn't up to you, the ambulance staff or anyone other than than the patient to say "CPR is a low-percentage play, so let's forget it." The only one who gets to decide if she gets CPR is herself, and she does it in advance by having DNR paperwork ready.

Third. CPR doesn't "work" on anyone, as in it doesn't restart hearts. Recipients of CPR don't cough and sit up after a 20 tense seconds of it, Baywatch-style. It is a stop-gap effort to delay tissue death long enough to attempt other interventions, such as defibrilation and administration of cardiac drugs.

Lastly, the effectiveness of CPR goes through the roof under certain conditions. A witnessed arrest with early CPR and defibrilation gets circulation back 75% of the time and a survival rate of over 20%.
2013-03-04 09:53:53 AM
1 votes:
http://dmanager.streamtheworld.com/media/default_audio_player.php?aud i o_file_id=102204171

Here is the full 911 call. I agree with the operator hearing the full call in context.
2013-03-04 08:54:50 AM
1 votes:

Bumblefark: BarkingUnicorn: nmemkha: BarkingUnicorn: nmemkha: Don't Troll Me Bro!:  It's hard for me to blame someone for deciding not to throw away their job (possibly career) to keep an 87y/o "alive" for a couple more years at most.

What if it was your mother? Or you? Would you feel the same?

Yes, I would.  An 87 year-old who survives such an incident is very unlikely to enjoy her remaining days.

Much of the dying's suffering is caused by their survivors.

You say that now, but your not a 87 year old having a heart attack, nor are you standing there watching your mother die.

Saying you would now is easy.

Yes, it is easy now.  My mother died in 1995, as I watched.  It was the best thing that could have happened to her, and I'd have been a poor son had I clung to her.

...and then, some families are a bit to eager to be done with the person that has become an inconvenience.

It cuts both ways. Which is why I intend to check myself out, before that decision has to fall to anybody else...

/Brave words, for somebody not on their death bed.


Story time...not related to TFA but related to the notion of clinging to a dying parent for one's own sake
rather than the parent's:

My dad was diagnosed with stage 4 esophageal cancer that had metastized just before Christmas 2005.
I went to visit him a month or two later (he was living in TN, I'm in FL) and made him swear to me that he
would not give up or quit fighting. An understandable reaction on my part - I didn't want to lose my dad if
there was even another day left in him.

Flash forward another 5 months. My mother (she and my dad had been separated until he got sick) had
moved down to TN to be with my dad at his parents place. They have a home on a lake and being on
the water was my dad's favorite place to be. So hospice set him up in the living room overlooking the
water. So, I get the phone call that it could be any day now and I needed to get up there. I tell my dad
that I'm coming and to hang on. I hopped on a greyhound and made the trip.

He went downhill fast once I got there. He went from being able to carry on a short, breathy conversation
to not being able to talk at all inside of a couple of hours. I was sitting with him in the middle of the night
and it hit me how selfish I'd been, demanding that he hang on when he was obviously miserable and in
agony. He seemed to know that I had something I needed to tell him, because he woke up just then.

I told him that I know I had made him promise not to stop fighting but that I'd been wrong to demand that
of him and that sometimes there does come a point where you've fought long enough and hard enough
and that its ok to stop fighting and rest. I never said "give up" or anything like that. i just told him that i
know how hard he fought and how much he hurt. i told him that i loved him and that it was OK to rest.

The next day, surrounded by family and friends, with old Redskins games on the TV and great music on
the stereo, he passed away. One moment he was there and we were all going about our conversations
and the next moment everyone in the room looked up like a shadow had passed overhead. We looked
at my mom who was sitting next to my dad and knew that he'd gone.

My dad loved me unreservedly even though he didn't have to (he is my mom's second husband) and
even though I was a complete shiat to him as a kid at times. He is the one who made music such a
critical part of my life, who made sure that i'd never be stranded on the side of a dark road with a flat
tire just because I was a girl. He was mom AND dad to me when my mom was too sick to be functional.

God I miss my dad.
2013-03-04 07:28:03 AM
1 votes:

Fell In Love With a Chair: and even laypeople should give it a shot.


Yes, yes they should.  In it's currently taught form it's been stripped down to make it as un ambiguous as possible specifically so that lay people will just start doing it rather than hmmming and hawing over how many ribs they'll break.
2013-03-04 07:06:58 AM
1 votes:

starsrift: Like to explain why, or are you just picking a name at random to troll?


I see it's been covered for me.  But to clarify, my comment is based on you making a statement that has been discussed and shown to be wrong throughout TFT.  There are links and everything.
2013-03-04 07:06:41 AM
1 votes:
As a RN, I find this story absolutely appalling.  Any nurse working in a patient care facility is required to maintain BLS certification (Basic Life Support) which is nothing more than providing the basics; obtaining an airway, providing breaths and giving chest compressions; quite similar to the CPR given to non-healthcare workers but with a few minor differences and tweaks.  BLS for healthcare providers (at least in most states/institutions/healthcare settings) also includes training and certification with an AED (Automated External Defibrillator). They are commonplace in healthcare and non-healthcare settings alike (even airports, universities, coffee shops, car dealerships, etc have them readily available for use for instances such as this). I can't imagine that a nursing home with would be without one, in fact I believe that they are required to have at least one functional machine at all times. The AED has a picture of where to place the two pads, automatically checks the heart rhythm to see if the patient requires shocking, and if required, delivers the shocks automatically at the correct time and and sequence under BLS guidelines, it even tells you when to start/stop CPR!  This machine is so simple to operate that my 5 year old son could use it properly with a near zero percent chance of screwing it up!  I find it absurd that a nursing home could have a protocol to withhold basic life support from patients who request to be full code (wanting CPR performed).  Code status options are reviewed and decided by the patient upon admission to ANY nursing home, that information is relayed to all staff and is required to be carried out in the event of the patient requiring CPR.  If it is the patient's wish to be "full code" and have CPR administered, every attempt to resuscitate the patient should be carried out by all available staff regardless of the nursing home's protocol of which I'm sure would not hold up to the state's standards of practice.  It sickens me to the point of projectile vomiting that there were several licensed and trained healthcare providers whose job it was to carry out whatever life saving measures the patient requested during the admission process and that all of these "professionals" were quite comfortable not performing CPR, watching someone die, merely calling 911, when the patient needed them the most. The inadequate response rendered to this patient wasted precious minutes to intervene when seconds count.  While their actions (or should I say in-action) were required by the protocol of the nursing home; I imagine that should an investigation by the state board of nursing and/or senior services would be launched, numerous violations to the states nurse practice act will have been found violated.  Hopefully, action will be taken by the board to ensure that these people will never again be placed in a position of trust to care for patients and have their licenses revoked. They had duty to act, they breached that duty; they deviated from the appropriate standards of care for their patient, which potentially led to her death.  Had they acted in a prudent and timely manner, within their expected scope of practice as trained professionals, this may have led to saving someone's life.  Instead, multiple people failed to act in a prudent manner as professional nurses, failed to act within their scope of practice and led to a patient death that may have been avoidable.
2013-03-04 02:20:35 AM
1 votes:

Loucifer: I'm pretty sure CPR has never worked.


In fact, it just might be the greatest threat to human life that mankind has ever known...

...you know, based on the thread to this point.
2013-03-04 01:33:05 AM
1 votes:

ZeroCorpse: People don't become doctors or nurses, or join the medical profession at all these day because they want to help people and save lives. These days, they do it because they want lots of money.

It's a disgrace that we even use the words "nurse" and "doctor" to describe these greedy animals. They bring dishonor to the words.


Gee thanks! Got any racism to go with your broad brush?

Also, many nurses don't make a whole lot of money.
2013-03-04 01:08:55 AM
1 votes:
Acravius:
CPR isn't really for reviving the corpse, its keeping the corpses organs alive long enough for the body to get to improved treatment facilities so that there is a greater capacity for the victim to be revived successfully and with less overall damage.

The manager of the home might have worked as an EMT at some point and feel bad for them.  If an emergency responder arrives and you're doing CPR they have to continue the attempt until delivery to a doctor who can declare it moot.  Even if the body spent a day in the water and you're an insane grief stricken mother.

/Probably not the reason
//known a few EMTs.  They'll tell horrible crash stories that still give them nightmares.  Assisted breathing a corpse, though, even they turn green.
2013-03-04 01:02:52 AM
1 votes:

Owangotang: Wow, lots of folks just gleefully missing the point...perform CPR, don't perform CPR, whatever. The appalling part of the story is the way the nurse wanted to pass the buck and "not make that call". Listen dipshiat if you did not want to have to make calls in life or death situations THEN DON'T BECOME A NURSE!


Well, that's the whole point. Whether the dispatcher was right or wrong or the lady was old or feeble or whatever--if the old woman didn't have a written DNR, then when you're told to do CPR, you do it, and that's that. And if you refuse, then you just became liable for that person's death, EVEN IF she would have died anyway, and even if her daughter has "no complaint" with her care at the nursing home or whatever.

Nursing homes have what's called a "duty of care" to their patients which is greater than the normal duty of care owed to people in hotels or whatever. The duty a nurse owes to a patient to ensure her safety and survival is quite high, and just calling 911 if a patient is in distress won't cut it. I have this feeling that the circling buzzards, er, personal injury lawyers have already contacted the daughter and apprised her of just this fact, and she may not be so satisfied with the nursing home's quality of care after a good night's sleep.
2013-03-04 12:57:24 AM
1 votes:
Private healthcare + liability insurance = this situation.

Frankly, I'm willing to give the "nurse" the benefit of the doubt. In a highly stressful situtation with a person badgering you on the phone to do something you know is against your works policy to do, most people would have done the same. If she's the sole breadwinner in her family and has dependants to support, I can't imagine her making any other decision.

It sucks, but at some point you need to put the welfare of yourself and your family ahead of other people. It's simply put - not her fault, but the fault of her employers for not covering such a measure (or perhaps more so, the fault of us all for continuing to rely upon private health care providers in this country).

Of course, the irony of this situation is that she will likely be fired ANYWAY because there is no downside to the business for doing so, and only upsides (stopping the negative publicity).
2013-03-04 12:50:51 AM
1 votes:

Anastacya: As also stated upthread, the woman was breathing, just badly. She had a pulse. Performing CPR would not be appropriate..


I know it's been pointed out several times, but agonal respirations happen quite frequently with cardiac arrest, especially when the person is in v-fib.  If she was gasping and had no palpable pulse, then CPR is absolutely indicated.

The larger issue is the stupid policy of the facility to not perform CPR.  Yes, it probably would not have made a difference in the case of this 87 year old lady, but what if the 40 year old cook collapses in cardiac arrest?  These places are full of dumb liability driven policies, such as calling 911 whenever a resident falls, even if there are no injuries and the resident doesn't want to go to the hospital.
2013-03-04 12:38:56 AM
1 votes:

The One True TheDavid: I'm waiting to see what BronyMedic says.


Me too. But my layperson thoughts on it (I have CPR certification but it's long expired) were ...I could see not doing chest compressions on someone in distress but still has a heartbeat who is elderly because you're going to pop a shiatload of ribs and potentially kill them. Assisted breathing however...I'd have done it. Especially since she did NOT have a DNR.

DNRs should be respected, though just through anecdotal accounts, it seems that the tendency is for it to be ignored and 'heroic' measures taken more often than someone is just left alone.

To my knowledge (and I could easily easily be wrong here) there's times where breathing alone is called for. I would think this would be one. Drowning is another. Other than that AFAIK, chest compress is most important (to the tune of Stayin' Alive).

And yeah, CPR usually fails. I don't know of anyone who's done it in an emergency situation where the person has survived (outside of a hospital or being an EMT). Everyone I know who has, the person died. Still...I'd rather try to help.

But when I took the class we were told repeatedly that chest compressions if done right, were gonna at a bare min. crack ribs. In someone injured, it could tear up their liver, puncture their lungs, etc. This shiat was hammered home in a 'be sure it's needed before you do it' way. In that you'd best be damned farking sure there's no heartbeat or respiration before you start cracking up their ribs, especially if they're old. We were also told (because the instructor was awesome) that odds were not good and if the person didn't make it...well, that was sadly the odds. Not to blame ourselves, better to help and try than do nothing. 5% chance is still a chance.

Anyhoo, looking forward to Brony and others who certainly know more than me on this shiat. :D

/has never done it except on a doll
/would like to keep it that way ideally
2013-03-04 12:37:13 AM
1 votes:

Forecaster18: My father spent the last 6 months of his life in two separate nursing homes - one which showed little interest at all as he suffered from an accidental Fentanyl overdose, and another that showed little interest as he became disoriented from a near fatal UTI.  (Repeated infections did later help claim his life.)  I can't imagine the horrors people go through who DON'T have family visiting them every day.


My grandmother had some pains, and she didn't know why. It was kidney stones, but the doctor didn't do any testing for it. His words "she's old, pain's a part of that." We fired him that day. Got another doctor the next day, he treated her and she felt so much better. Not getting the treatment you want, fire the bums! If I had a parent or grandparent in the place in this article they would be out ASAP.
2013-03-04 12:22:55 AM
1 votes:
My father spent the last 6 months of his life in two separate nursing homes - one which showed little interest at all as he suffered from an accidental Fentanyl overdose, and another that showed little interest as he became disoriented from a near fatal UTI.  (Repeated infections did later help claim his life.)  I can't imagine the horrors people go through who DON'T have family visiting them every day.
2013-03-04 12:21:31 AM
1 votes:

herdgirl72: Unbelievable. I don't care what my workplace policy is. If that lady was Full Code and not DNR, I'm a nurse, i should do CPR. I'd rather lose my job than my license.


As a camera operator doing legal video I had an old guy give out on me.
Everyone had left, the lawyers and the court reporter his wife were all gone.
I'm coiling cable and I went for the mic and realized he was blue.
Vigorously called the nurses station and it was pretty much a "Meh, he's a DNR so don't worry, we'll be right there"
I dragged the rest of the kit out the door and packed up in the parking lot.

It seemed painless and it seemed right.  He knew he wasn't getting out or getting better.  He just wanted justice to provide for his wife.  Keeping him going wasn't the best policy.
2013-03-04 12:14:51 AM
1 votes:

silverjets: I'm guessing that the "nurse" in the facility really isn't a nurse.


I came to point this out. My mother in law just moved into 'assisted' living and spent two weeks in a full nursing home. They both have one nurse on duty (RN).
Patients and family refer to the rest of the staff as nurses, but I think they are 'just' called Care Staff.
2013-03-04 12:12:12 AM
1 votes:

flamingboard: RULES ARE RULES! WAARGAARRBLE


Given the comments here, I half expect someone to hunt the nurse down and light her up.
2013-03-04 12:06:59 AM
1 votes:
I just listened to the recording, that dispatcher really had no clue what was going on.

I've been to homes like this.  You have the residents(elderly) and workers there, that's pretty much it.  If the workers can't do it(CPR) you sure as hell aren't going to get that 90 year old guy eating lunch to do it.  Gimme a break!

If there by chance was a family member having lunch there with her grandma, imagine the reaction if the nurse hands the phone over to her saying "Here, they're going to talk you through doing CPR on this woman".   Haha, no.
2013-03-03 11:57:10 PM
1 votes:
Not commenting on whether the nurse should have performed CPR (which I believe she should have) but on some of the suggestions and opinions stated which are truly baffling...

I have seen the statistic of 2% of people recovering fully after CPR is performed....and the American Heart Association states that 92,000 people were saved by CPR last year....so if both statistics are correct, or even close to correct, that means between 1500-2000 people were not only saved but were able to fully recover from whatever caused CPR to be necessary....

That's a lot of people surviving for CPR to be called "cruel, torturous, and ineffective"

My 2 cents
2013-03-03 11:53:03 PM
1 votes:

WhoGAS: Acravius: Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.

You don't do breaths any more.


Only true some places, and even then only in layperson CPR. The nurse is at least certified in BLS, so she'd be doing breaths if she was doing CPR
2013-03-03 11:48:51 PM
1 votes:

djh0101010: JMacPA: RandomRandom: JMacPA: Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious. 2% is better than 0%. JUST DO IT.

2% to 3% on a average human, not a health compromised nursing home patient.

As was posted above, one study found ZERO instances of success when performing CPR on nursing home patients.  Zero isn't better than 0%, it is 0%.

That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader?  What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?

Here's as good of a place to jump in as any.  If she's the typical little old ladies, those ribs are FRAGILE.  Like, bag of potato chips fragile.  Since the purpose of chest compressions in CPR is to circulate blood, if the patient's heart is still running, it's much better to let it do its job. 

CPR on a living patient is a good way to kill them.  The lady was breathing.  CPR is the wrong treatment.  Turn up the O2, maybe even bag her, but the dispatcher was wrong telling the nurse to do CPR on a living patient.


You can still have agonal breathing but not a BP that's compatible with life. My best guess would be PEA, so no palpable pulse. In that case you would start CPR.

The dispatchers usually have a flowchart they follow.
2013-03-03 11:47:46 PM
1 votes:

AJisaff: CPR on a living patient is a good way to kill them. The lady was breathing. CPR is the wrong treatment. Turn up the O2, maybe even bag her, but the dispatcher was wrong telling the nurse to do CPR on a living patient.

i am sorry, but where the hell did you get trained?? CPR is exactly what is performed on a choking casualty, and doesn't kill them. i agree that CPR on an elderly patient will probably not have a positive outcome, but the lazy biatch didn't even try. Most likely she was going through agonal respirations, not proper breaths. i posted this already, and it seems pretty self explanatory even in laymans' terms...


You seem to be confusing the Heimlich Maneuver with cardiac compressions.  Totally different mechanism, different action, different part of the body, and for a different reason.  If you're doing CPR on a choking patient, you missed the "airway" part and jumped all the way up to "circulation".
2013-03-03 11:45:12 PM
1 votes:

digitalrain: Acravius: Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.

What happened to "one-one-thousand-two-one-thousand-three-one-thousand-four-one-thousan d-five-one-thousand-BREATHE" ?


it takes a minimum of 30 compressions to circulate blood through the body once.  sing staying alive under your breath and you will have the right speed.  1.6 compressions per second.  compression only cpr is fine for non-drowned adult casualties, but not in situations where they were already oxygen deprived.  aim high in the center of the chest, compress at least two inches, and allow the chest full recoil.

and yeah.  i teach it for a living.  i also teach health care provider levels, which is teaching nurses cpr.  i am horrified by this whole concept that a nurse would abrogate her duty like this.
2013-03-03 11:45:09 PM
1 votes:
djh0101010:
Here's as good of a place to jump in as any.  If she's the typical little old ladies, those ribs are FRAGILE.  Like, bag of potato chips fragile.  Since the purpose of chest compressions in CPR is to circulate blood, if the patient's heart is still running, it's much better to let it do its job.

CPR on a living patient is a good way to kill them.  The lady was breathing.  CPR is the wrong treatment.  Turn up the O2, maybe even bag her, but the dispatcher was wrong telling the nurse to do CPR on a living patient.


You're not the first to point out that she was already breathing, but I agree that it doesn't make sense to revive a breathing person.  When I was a kid the first thing ever said about CPR was 'When you find a person NOT BREATHING...........'.  Also, I do question if the 911 dispatcher was trained in anything besides being a glorified phone operator.  Most are, and it is an important job, but to second guess a trained professional just seems like a silly overreaction.  I listen to Flint's dispatchers and they are not always professional, well sometimes the cops aren't either.  I noticed an officer hitting on the dispatch over the radio, I don't care but it happened.  Usually they just pass calls onto the officers and look up background information for the officers.

/on a side note, a few months ago, I had mentioned how Flint officers could get a lot of criminals off the street by doing some traffic stops.  It worked, they have been and almost every car they stop has no license and/or outstanding warrants.  Surprise!
2013-03-03 11:44:56 PM
1 votes:

Lawnchair: AirForceVet: Why bother calling 911 in the first place?

Guess I'll scratch that senior center off my list of retirement homes.

I could go for a place with that much restraint, if I got that old (exceedingly unlikely).  Besides being disindicated for a breathing person, basically no 87-year-old is going to survive the year of rehab from breaking every rib in her body, which would be the outcome from any CPR procedure that's worth the bother.

Why call 911?  Well, she's dying, and if she didn't write a DNR, it's easier for the hospital to deal with that.


All that may be true, but absent a written DNR order, it's not the NURSE'S decision to make. Your patient is going to have a bunch of broken ribs? Sorry, if CPR is indicated, you do CPR. They have a flailed chest from a steering wheel impact? You start CPR anyway. She's old and dying and you don't want the bother? Too bad, if she needs CPR and you don't want the pants sued off you, you initiate CPR.

And if you're on a recorded 911 line and the dispatcher is giving you contraindicated advice--like the lady is still breathing and CPR is not advised at this time--you say "I don't think CPR is advised, so we're not initiating it at this time." You DON"T say "I'm feeling stressed and she's yelling at me" like a whiny biatch. You don't make it sound like you're a callous whore who just called 911 to pick up the body, even if it's true.
2013-03-03 11:28:08 PM
1 votes:

DoctorCal: No modified lemon party?

Live, dang you!


Not safe for Featured Partner Fark
2013-03-03 11:23:38 PM
1 votes:

Cyno01: Patient was breathing, CPR should not have been performed, 911 dispatchers are not medical personnel, non story.


Says who? The derpity derp "nurse" who was more concerned about her personal stress level?
2013-03-03 11:15:26 PM
1 votes:
I learned CPR back in the 7th grade as a unit in health class. I think we all got certified, but
it was so long ago (decades) I can't remember.

At any rate, I only had to use it once. It was probably 12 years ago or so. I was home with my
son and we were out on the balcony of our apartment. The woman downstairs comes screaming
out of her apartment looking for someone - anyone - to help her. Her husband had collapsed
and wasn't breathing.

A couple of people just eyed her sideways and carried on. I hesitated for a moment (I'm still a
bit ashamed that I even hesitated) then grabbed my 4 year old and went downstairs. The
husband was collapsed on the floor of the bedroom. The woman's older son was there and
all of the 7th grade stuff came rushing back. I told the son how to do the compressions and I
did the breaths

Sadly, it was ineffective. I felt the man's life leave him before the paramedic (yes, as in one) got
there. Since he didn't have anyone with him, the paramedic had me stay and do compressions
while he bagged him.

Turns out the husband had had a stroke. I felt awful that I hadn't been able to help but when I
went downstairs a couple of days later to see how the woman was doing, the son told me that
they were just glad that *someone* tried to help.

I had to do the heimlich on my dad once too. Fortunately I met with more success that time.
2013-03-03 11:05:05 PM
1 votes:
Patient was breathing, CPR should not have been performed, 911 dispatchers are not medical personnel, non story.

And yeah, from my meager training, CPR on the elderly is not always the best idea, even on a healthy person if you do CPR right youre likely to break a rib or two. One thing i explicitly remember from training is to make sure youre doing compressions high enough on the patient, or youre likely to break the xiphoid process and cause internal bleeding. I remember that so well because the instructor kept saying regarding the possible internal hemorrhaging that it would "bleed like stink" and that was really funny for some reason.

CPR is not the panacea you see on television.
2013-03-03 10:54:38 PM
1 votes:

rga184: ChrisDe: Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.

Correction: she has a piece of paper with a title on it. In reality, she's barely a human being. MOST nurses I know wouldn't think of losing their job over saving the life of a patient.


Then most nurses you know are older ones who are in it mainly for the warm fuzzies.  Nurses I've known wouldn't even give a handy for less than $20.  Of course, I always insist on the young, cute, underpaid ones who are supporting three babbies.
2013-03-03 10:47:21 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: I was in the waiting room of Mercy hospital here in Oklahoma City. A guy pulled up by the doors, opened the car door and made it about half way to the doors of ER and passed out. He was laying maybe 25 feet from the doors. The people working in the ER called 911. They would not go outside and get him. Me and two other guys walked out and picked him up and carried him into the ER and he was treated. I asked a nurse WTF? She told me that they normally have ambulance crew onsite, but if they are out on a run the policy in this situation is to call 911, they are not allowed to walk out of the doors to help anyone.

/Dude lived, low blood sugar.


Several good reasons for that:

- The hospital's insurance policy does not cover any care given outside of the building. Even if the patient is brought inside, the care given by the hospital started outside (cf. "the care given by the paramedic before the patient was handed over to the hospital inside the hospital building") so the insurance company isn't responsible for when something goes wrong.
- A nurse is not a paramedic. They don't have advanced life support equipment, training, insurance and most importantly, the help of a second paramedic.
- The ER nurse is responsible for everyone in the ER. If he turns his back to go outside and play paramedic, and someone inside has a grievous change of condition, that's his ass. Even if there was someone else there. Even if every RN, RPN, HCA and agency jackoff with stolen scrubs and a forged green card were crammed into the ER. The insurance company and the lawyers will say the level of care was diminished because someone who was required to be there farked off to someone else's job after specifically being told not to.
2013-03-03 10:40:52 PM
1 votes:

NotoriousFire: Relatively Obscure: NotoriousFire: /For all we know, the nursing home already paid off the family, hence why they aren't complaining.

Or, they could just be glad she's dead :P


See, I just find that difficult to digest.


I was just kiddin', anyway.

Lehk: good Samaritan laws do not apply to healthcare professionals, they apply to untrained civilians doing their best


No.  In many states, this is the exact opposite of true.
2013-03-03 10:40:31 PM
1 votes:

ChrisDe: Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.


Correction: she has a piece of paper with a title on it. In reality, she's barely a human being. MOST nurses I know wouldn't think of losing their job over saving the life of a patient.

On the other hand, CPR on an 87 year old outside the hospital...never a gods outcome, oftentimes worse than death, because they revive you so you can spend there months in the ICU and die anyway. I'd give the nyse a pass if this is what she was thinking about, although if the patient didn't have a DNR order, it's her duty to do so. Ironically enough though, if she did that, she'd have to still choose rules over patient's best interest.
2013-03-03 10:40:03 PM
1 votes:
My grandfather was 86, still grading papers part-time for the University of Toronto (he was a Silver Medallist in Maths in his younger years) when one night he told his wife that he was stopping early, wasn't feeling too good. An hour later he was dead.
That's the way anyone should go, in their own home. Nursing homes scare the crap out of me.
2013-03-03 10:28:24 PM
1 votes:

JMacPA: RandomRandom: JMacPA: Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious. 2% is better than 0%. JUST DO IT.

2% to 3% on a average human, not a health compromised nursing home patient.

As was posted above, one study found ZERO instances of success when performing CPR on nursing home patients.  Zero isn't better than 0%, it is 0%.

That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader?  What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?


I think that even on a healthy person things like broken ribs and a cracked sternum are fairly normal outcomes from doing chest compressions. Add an old lady, which probably has some form of osteoporosis, and I would imagine the trauma from chest compressions can be rather severe. To the point that it may indeed prove more dangerous than doing nothing. I would imagine, taking their frailty into account, the best thing the nurse could possibly due was put an oxygen mask on the lady.
2013-03-03 10:28:06 PM
1 votes:

RandomRandom: JMacPA: That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader? What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?

It's torture, it breaks ribs, it doesn't work.

The vast majority of retired physicians in nursing home end-of-life situations do not sign releases for CPR.  They know it doesn't work and have no desire to be tortured by the practice in their last moments of life.

It's not evil or cold to deny CPR to the nursing home population.  Given that it doesn't work on them, absence of CPR is just more compassionate.


This.

A procedure that has a sub-5% chance of reviving someone, combined with a near-100% chance of causing an extremely painful injury that would most likely kill an otherwise healthy elderly person is not the sort of thing nursing homes just up and do. Most of the time their medical professionals and lawyers team up to tell them NOT to do it because cardiac arrest is a much better way to die than cardiac arrest followed by some asshole grinding your ribs into corn flakes on the shattered edges of your sternum followed by dying anyway.

So when the nursing home says "Do not do CPR on this patient" then the right thing for the nurse to do is not do farking CPR. That's how people stay employed, out of jail and away from lifelong court-imposed poverty.
2013-03-03 10:23:44 PM
1 votes:

RandomRandom: JMacPA: That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader? What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?

It's torture, it breaks ribs, it doesn't work.

The vast majority of retired physicians in nursing home end-of-life situations do not sign releases for CPR.  They know it doesn't work and have no desire to be tortured by the practice in their last moments of life.

It's not evil or cold to deny CPR to the nursing home population.  Given that it doesn't work on them, absence of CPR is just more compassionate.



I have broken so many ribs in my time with CPR.  From infants to elderly I have never seen CPR work.  Cracked chest or not.  Anecdotal to be sure, but people outside of health care still seem to think it's magic.
2013-03-03 10:23:08 PM
1 votes:
Dispatchers in Kern County have to go through EMD training. It's not a matter of whether a dispatcher "thinks" someone needs CPR. Depending on the answers given to the questions the dispatchers are required to ask, they may or may not tell the person to start CPR. Look up "agonal breathing" yes they may be breathing, but its inadequate, and if you can't feel a pulse, you start compressions. So, don't question the actions of a very experienced dispatcher, question the nurse who has no ethics or morals.
2013-03-03 10:21:02 PM
1 votes:

JMacPA: That's great and all, but is CPR going to make her any deader? What exactly are the negative aspects of an attempt?


It's torture, it breaks ribs, it doesn't work.

The vast majority of retired physicians in nursing home end-of-life situations do not sign releases for CPR.  They know it doesn't work and have no desire to be tortured by the practice in their last moments of life.

It's not evil or cold to deny CPR to the nursing home population.  Given that it doesn't work on them, absence of CPR is just more compassionate.
2013-03-03 10:17:12 PM
1 votes:
Does no one else think this death is (policy-wise) deliberate? Sure your kids say they're gonna pick out a great place. And they do, it has tennis courts, a pool, it's even got a picturesque view, because it's way out in the mountains, "won't be a whole lotta traffic to keep you up at night anymore ma" "You won't have to worry about the coloreds moving in down the street either" "they've got 10 nurses on staff at all times" And the policy of the facility is de facto DNR. Meaning that the little bastard that puts you in wants to get at your money before the retirement home sucks it all up.

I like the idea of having the option to check into a place like this, but I'd like to know that it was me making the decision for myself, not my asshole money grubbing kids.
2013-03-03 10:16:45 PM
1 votes:

cynicalbastard: djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather.  CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.

Yeah, surprised nobody picked up on that. You do CPR, good chance you are going to break something. Not a big deal if it's a non-breathing individual, no pulse, in which case you can only try and keep some oxygen going to the brain, but if they're breathing and pulse beating, you don't do it. Same as you do NOT do the Heimlich maneuver on a person who can talk. You just take them from being someone with a bit of airway obstruction to someone with airway obstruction PLUS broken ribs.


This is not true at all.  As a random passerby, being able to tell if somebody has a pulse and is breathing can be really crazy difficult, and usually not worth the time.  If somebody has collapsed, isn't responsive whatsoever, performing CPR is recommended.

Medical professionals are a totally different story, since they have training for that shiat.

Obviously, you wouldn't perform CPR on somebody who is responsive in some way, just as you wouldn't perform the heimlich on somebody who can talk.
2013-03-03 10:15:01 PM
1 votes:

chookbillion: Spaghetti Eatin' Goombah: Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

I'm guessing further information will show that the 87 year old resident had other issues that would have made it a moot point anyways.  It's not like simply doing CPR saves everyone.

I found a guy lying next to my neighbor's house (it was the pest control guy).  No pulse, no breathing, no heartbeat, ashen gray in color.  911 dispatcher talked me through CPR (had never done it before, but sort of new the basics) which I performed on the guy until the EMTs arrived.

Dude died.

Dude was dead when you found him.


Yeah, pretty much thought the same thing when I found him.  Was kinda hoping something "magical" might happen, but never did.  Guy was 58.
2013-03-03 10:10:42 PM
1 votes:

quizzical: Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

A nurse in a medical facility should already have that training.


FTA: After the nurse repeatedly refused, Halverson asked her to find a passerby or anyone who would be willing to help.  Halverson said she would talk someone through performing CPR.

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


She did not.

djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather.  CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.


See: agonal respiration

foxyshadis: But it was too much trouble for the reporter to ask if the 911 operator had a damn clue what they were talking about


FTA: Bakersfield Fire Battalion Chief Anthony Galagazza said Halverson followed protocol and that dispatchers give CPR instructions over the phone numerous times a year.
2013-03-03 10:09:39 PM
1 votes:

NotoriousFire: Have you missed the numerous sources already cited that question the use of CPR on a breathing individual? Barely breathing, yes, but not gasping, etc. Is that not enough for you to possibly question that the on-scene person made possibly the right call?


It doesn't appear anywhere that the on-scene nurse was doing that kind of an assessment at all.  If she wasn't breathing at all, it sounds like her response would have been "Yeah, we don't do that."

It may have been the right call in the end, but it wasn't like the nurse came to that conclusion.  She just said she's not helping because her boss said not to.

But, this being a news article, I'm sure there's plenty missing.
2013-03-03 10:05:58 PM
1 votes:
I'm surprised everyone is jumping to the liability thing.  By the way the management stressed that they are an independent living facility and the daughter, who is a nurse, said she was satisfied with the care her mother received... I would say its more likely this residence was chosen because she did not, in fact, want to be surrounded by nurses etc all the time.  Its likely the "nurse" isnt an actual nurse at all.
2013-03-03 10:05:44 PM
1 votes:

JMacPA: Yeah, CPR has a 2% survival rate if the person is found unconscious. 2% is better than 0%. JUST DO IT.


2% to 3% on a average human, not a health compromised nursing home patient.

As was posted above, one study found ZERO instances of success when performing CPR on nursing home patients.  Zero isn't better than 0%, it is 0%.
2013-03-03 10:04:20 PM
1 votes:
I hope that nurse dies slowly, in full view of people unwilling to help her.
2013-03-03 10:03:19 PM
1 votes:
ByOwlLight:
Withholding care when you're technically a medical professional is a kind of a terrible thing to do.

But the issue here is CPR wasn't appropriate, and likely wouldn't have done squat, anyway.  I mean, what next, you yell at the tow truck driver for not jump starting your car when it has a flat tire?
2013-03-03 10:03:06 PM
1 votes:

NotoriousFire: Guess it depends on your definitions of "barely breathing" and "has trouble breathing." Clearly we and every other armchair nurse in here know far better than the nurse on-scene, right?


I don't know, but nothing indicates that the patient's condition was motivating her actions except for talking on the phone.  The rest was "it's not our policy to do that."  Which it sounds like is true.

NotoriousFire: Still think if something was fishy with the way this whole thing went down, the family would be out for money from the home. They're already guaranteed the inheritance - why not go for the extra if something was odd with what the nurse did? Sounds like a non-issue.


There may or may not be people in my family to whom I'd have different reactions to different levels of care.
2013-03-03 10:01:13 PM
1 votes:

Gulper Eel: If I'm reading this bit on the California good samaritan law correctly, it looks to me that the nursing home could've been sued to the eyeballs - not for trying the CPR, but if something else went wrong somewhere along the line.


That's my thought too.

The home is trying to save itself from lawsuits, which is a sad fact in today's world.
2013-03-03 09:59:57 PM
1 votes:

chookbillion: Yeah, she's getting a little full of herself, isn't she? Saying "are you going to let her die" is emotional blackmail. The old lady was dying suddenly, and it sure as hell wasn't the nurse's fault, but the 911 person was insinuating that it was. That's a terrible thing to do.


Withholding care when you're technically a medical professional is a kind of a terrible thing to do.
2013-03-03 09:59:35 PM
1 votes:

Relatively Obscure: NotoriousFire: Since I don't want my research to go to waste, here's a random quote:

"CPR stands for cardiopulmonary resuscitation. It is an emergency lifesaving procedure that is done when someone's breathing or heartbeat has stopped. This may happen after an electric shock, heart attack, or drowning."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000010.htm

Same site, under "adult":

If the person is not breathing or has trouble breathing:Cover their mouth tightly with your mouth.Pinch the nose closed.Keep the chin lifted and head tilted.Give 2 rescue breaths. Each breath should take about a second and make the chest rise.



Guess it depends on your definitions of "barely breathing" and "has trouble breathing." Clearly we and every other armchair nurse in here know far better than the nurse on-scene, right?

Still think if something was fishy with the way this whole thing went down, the family would be out for money from the home. They're already guaranteed the inheritance - why not go for the extra if something was odd with what the nurse did? Sounds like a non-issue.
2013-03-03 09:58:31 PM
1 votes:

Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

I'm guessing further information will show that the 87 year old resident had other issues that would have made it a moot point anyways.  It's not like simply doing CPR saves everyone.


I found a guy lying next to my neighbor's house (it was the pest control guy).  No pulse, no breathing, no heartbeat, ashen gray in color.  911 dispatcher talked me through CPR (had never done it before, but sort of new the basics) which I performed on the guy until the EMTs arrived.

Dude died.
2013-03-03 09:58:21 PM
1 votes:

Acravius: So when the person stopped breathing/went unconcious the nurse still didn't perform CPR until the ambulance arrived.
Ridiculous, as, yes CPR has a low (1%) chance of revival on its own, the stuff the paramedics bring in returning a person to life to around 30-40% chance and CPR for 4 to 6 minutes keeps the body and brain oxygenated enough to allow for less overall damage to those organs.
FInally getting to the hospital, your rate of coming back can be raised to 80% and with the cryobaths and other treatment capacities they can mitigate a lot of damage to the body and brain after returning to a state of life.
CPR isn't really for reviving the corpse, its keeping the corpses organs alive long enough for the body to get to improved treatment facilities so that there is a greater capacity for the victim to be revived successfully and with less overall damage.

Whether or not the person would have survived at the hospital isn't the question, the real question is why the nursing home has the policy of not performing CPR, even when the victim does not have a DNR request on file. Also how does this nurse retain her credentials when she fails to perform her duties as a nurse regardless of the policies of the facility that she works at?



Unconscious has nothing to do with CPR.  There is nothing in the article that I read that says the patient actually stopped breathing at the facility.

re: credentials:  Generally speaking (and each state is different) nurse practice acts declare what you are legally capable of doing, not what one should do in a situation.  Facility rules and procedures trump practice acts so long as facility rules do not force one to violate practice acts.  Sounds like in this case, they have an R2 or R2 on site somewhere who is supposed to be doing these kinds of things.

It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon here, but there is quite a bit of data missing.
2013-03-03 09:58:19 PM
1 votes:
Fell In Love With a Chair:

The funny part is, I haven't had a CPR course EVER and I farking know this!

I can tell.

http://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@ecc/documents/dow nl oadable/ucm_317350.pdf

Notice, that rescue compressions are appropriate even if the victim is "not breathing normally." For example with choking, you may be able to dislodge the blocking object with compressions.
2013-03-03 09:57:48 PM
1 votes:

catzilla: Relatively Obscure: WhoGAS: You don't do breaths any more.

That isn't true everywhere.

True, only in the areas that adhere to the AHA guidelines.


Yeah, I believe AHA says no breaths, while Red Cross and others say yes.  And the pros have gear that does a better job anyway.
2013-03-03 09:57:13 PM
1 votes:

foxyshadis: Person: Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.

But it was too much trouble for the reporter to ask if the 911 operator had a damn clue what they were talking about, or ask any other medical professional if it was appropriate. KGET is pandering and has a partial transcript of the panicky operator.


Yeah, she's getting a little full of herself, isn't she? Saying "are you going to let her die" is emotional blackmail. The old lady was dying suddenly, and it sure as hell wasn't the nurse's fault, but the 911 person was insinuating that it was. That's a terrible thing to do.
2013-03-03 09:56:51 PM
1 votes:

WhoGAS: Acravius: Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.

You don't do breaths any more.


That's only in certain situations. There is a somewhat different technique to it as well, which is exhausting.  I think the Red Cross stopped teaching compression-only for basic cpr certification last year, as they found people with only that much training could get confused and use it when it wasn't appropriate.
2013-03-03 09:52:45 PM
1 votes:
Since I don't want my research to go to waste, here's a random quote:

"CPR stands for cardiopulmonary resuscitation. It is an emergency lifesaving procedure that is done when someone's breathing or heartbeat has stopped. This may happen after an electric shock, heart attack, or drowning."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000010.htm
2013-03-03 09:51:47 PM
1 votes:

quizzical: Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

A nurse in a medical facility should already have that training.


Arguably an assisted living facility is not a medical facility (or more appropriately... a nursing facility). It's a place for people who need a little help, not full care or rehabilitation. Think of it as an apartment complex that cooks you food and has someone to pick you up if you fall in the shower.
2013-03-03 09:47:49 PM
1 votes:

Fell In Love With a Chair: djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather. CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.

THIIIIISSSSSS
That was the first farking thing I thought when I read this article. Why in fark's name would you do CPR ON SOMEONE WHOSE HEART IS BEATING AND THEY ARE STILL BREATHING?
You DO NOT do chest compressions on someone whose heart is still beating!
You DO NOT do rescue breathing on someone who is still farking breathing on their own!

The funny part is, I haven't had a CPR course EVER and I farking know this!


Actually, the National Institute of Health or whatever only says to avoid it if breathing is normal, or if there is coughing or movement.  I think instructions differ, though.

Anyway, all of this is hardly why the nurse wasn't doing anything.  The nurse was just afraid her boss would be mad.
2013-03-03 09:47:48 PM
1 votes:
If you've ever spent time around retirement homes and assisted living, you've detected the barely concealed contempt most people working there have for their charges.  Definitely a class thing.  They pretty much are all making this shiat wage to take care of these white hairs who are staying there for tons of money each year, decrepit and prompted to keep living deep into their eighties and nineties for no apparent reason.

Not saying it's right, but I'm less than shocked some nurse found a way not to save a life.  There's always waiting lists and more coming through the door.
2013-03-03 09:45:47 PM
1 votes:
Fell In Love With a Chair:
You DO NOT do chest compressions on someone whose heart is still beating!
You DO NOT do rescue breathing on someone who is still farking breathing on their own!

The funny part is, I haven't had a CPR course EVER and I farking know this!


Tell that to the seemingly 80% of Americans (and Fark posters apparently) who don't seem to understand this.
2013-03-03 09:44:17 PM
1 votes:
I smell attorneys.
Seas of Attorneys.
I hear their salivations.
The shuffling of papers.
Someone gunna get paid.
2013-03-03 09:40:03 PM
1 votes:

fusillade762: Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail

I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??



Like to assist the residents in wiping their behinds, walking them back and forth to the dining and bingo halls, etc. So the ADLs (activities of daily living) and such. Better that than an inappropriate treatment such as CPR, right?
2013-03-03 09:37:08 PM
1 votes:

Person: Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.


But it was too much trouble for the reporter to ask if the 911 operator had a damn clue what they were talking about, or ask any other medical professional if it was appropriate. KGET is pandering and has a partial transcript of the panicky operator.
2013-03-03 09:29:32 PM
1 votes:

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


Thanks! Now can you explain a "BLT"?

mimg.ugo.com
2013-03-03 09:28:47 PM
1 votes:

ZeroCorpse: People don't become doctors or nurses, or join the medical profession at all these day because they want to help people and save lives. These days, they do it because they want lots of money.

It's a disgrace that we even use the words "nurse" and "doctor" to describe these greedy animals. They bring dishonor to the words.


Pfft. To the people of the Gamma Forests, the word "doctor" means "mighty warrior".
2013-03-03 09:27:56 PM
1 votes:
i.imgur.com
2013-03-03 09:22:34 PM
1 votes:
In fairness to the nurse:

"She's yelling at me," she said of Halvorson, "and saying we have to have one of our residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed, and I'm not going to do that, make that call."

Do you want the nurse to have a heart attack?
2013-03-03 09:03:37 PM
1 votes:
FTA: "When Halvorson asked the nurse if she was going to let the woman die, the nurse said, "That's why we called 911."


So, YES, then?
 
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