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(LA Times)   911 dispatcher "Is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?" Nurse at senior living center "Um, not at this time"   (latimesblogs.latimes.com) divider line 438
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23485 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Mar 2013 at 9:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-03 09:03:37 PM
FTA: "When Halvorson asked the nurse if she was going to let the woman die, the nurse said, "That's why we called 911."


So, YES, then?
 
2013-03-03 09:09:40 PM

Amos Quito: FTA: "When Halvorson asked the nurse if she was going to let the woman die, the nurse said, "That's why we called 911."


So, YES, then?


Why bother calling 911 in the first place?

Guess I'll scratch that senior center off my list of retirement homes.
 
2013-03-03 09:15:11 PM
Well if she didn't wanna die she shouldn't have gotten old!
 
2013-03-03 09:16:41 PM
Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.
 
2013-03-03 09:16:59 PM
You guys busy privatizing your death panels down there?
 
2013-03-03 09:18:47 PM
I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.

I'm guessing further information will show that the 87 year old resident had other issues that would have made it a moot point anyways.  It's not like simply doing CPR saves everyone.
 
2013-03-03 09:18:48 PM
Unbelievable. I don't care what my workplace policy is. If that lady was Full Code and not DNR, I'm a nurse, i should do CPR. I'd rather lose my job than my license.
 
2013-03-03 09:18:49 PM
It's not a TOOMER!
 
2013-03-03 09:19:15 PM

ChrisDe: Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.

She is truly an "Angel of Mercy"
 
2013-03-03 09:19:42 PM
as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail
 
2013-03-03 09:20:12 PM
I'm going to sound cold here, but the woman was in her late 80s. Sometimes its just a person's time to go.

The operator sounds like a spaz, from the way she's portrayed in the article. "It's a human being" Yes, and human beings die all the time. You can't be Superman and save everyone all the time.
 
2013-03-03 09:20:35 PM

Birnone: I wasn't aware that dispatchers could 'talk' you through CPR.  I thought people got certified in that, taking classes and such.


A nurse in a medical facility should already have that training.
 
2013-03-03 09:20:39 PM
Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".
 
2013-03-03 09:20:45 PM
The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather.  CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.
 
2013-03-03 09:21:11 PM
People don't become doctors or nurses, or join the medical profession at all these day because they want to help people and save lives. These days, they do it because they want lots of money.

It's a disgrace that we even use the words "nurse" and "doctor" to describe these greedy animals. They bring dishonor to the words.
 
2013-03-03 09:21:12 PM
If I'm reading this bit on the California good samaritan law correctly, it looks to me that the nursing home could've been sued to the eyeballs - not for trying the CPR, but if something else went wrong somewhere along the line.
 
2013-03-03 09:21:46 PM
So, depraved indifference?
 
2013-03-03 09:22:01 PM
Business Opportunity: Bakersfield Ice Floe, Inc.
 
2013-03-03 09:22:21 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: I'm going to sound cold here, but the woman was in her late 80s. Sometimes its just a person's time to go.

The operator sounds like a spaz, from the way she's portrayed in the article. "It's a human being" Yes, and human beings die all the time. You can't be Superman and save everyone all the time.


The operator was asking a *nurse* to perform CPR...not open-heart surgery.

But, yeah, that's just an absurd request, huh?
 
2013-03-03 09:22:34 PM
In fairness to the nurse:

"She's yelling at me," she said of Halvorson, "and saying we have to have one of our residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed, and I'm not going to do that, make that call."

Do you want the nurse to have a heart attack?
 
2013-03-03 09:22:37 PM

ChrisDe: Saw that on the news today. The woman that called 911 was more concerned about following the rules (no CPR) and keeping her job than the life of another person. And she was a nurse. Pretty sad, though I guess it's easy to say when it's not me being fired.


More important is the reason behind this--no doubt, a fear of liability.

The lawyers of course don't have to pay for this woman that just died from their actions.
 
2013-03-03 09:22:52 PM
FTA: Bayless' daughter told KGET that she was a nurse and was satisfied with her mother's care at Glenwood Gardens, the station reported.

IIIInteresting.
 
2013-03-03 09:23:07 PM

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


FTA:

The patient did not have a do-not-resuscitate order, according to KGET-TV.

Helps to read the article, eh?
 
2013-03-03 09:24:19 PM
Seems like a stupid policy.  Are they worried that their staff will do it wrong?  Is it a liability thing?  I'd have to imagine they could should hire people that are qualified to do things like this, especially being a senior living center and all.

Also: The elderly woman was identified by KGET-TV as 87-year-old Lorraine Bayless. She died Tuesday at Mercy Hospital Southwest, KGET reported.

It's hard for me to blame someone for deciding not to throw away their job (possibly career) to keep an 87y/o "alive" for a couple more years at most.  If this had been a child, or a healthy person that should have some time left on the clock, I'd be pretty disgusted.
 
2013-03-03 09:24:43 PM

Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail



Maybe, but at least she'll keep her job.
 
2013-03-03 09:25:12 PM

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


This.  They still call 911 because it's a helluva lot easier when they die in a hospital.  Most of those poor old farts have been circling the drain for years and are quite ready to go.

/ my mom has a DNR, for example.
/ I have pretty specific instructions in a living will, and all you you should think about it if you don't already have one...
 
2013-03-03 09:25:32 PM

djh0101010: The patient was breathing.  You only do CPR on a pulseless non-breather.  CPR is not the right treatment for that situation.  Oxygen and maybe even to bag them, yes, but the nurse was completely correct not to start CPR on a breathing patient.


I was thinking that exact same thing...it said she was still breathing. Barely, but even so.
 
2013-03-03 09:26:23 PM

AirForceVet: Why bother calling 911 in the first place?

Guess I'll scratch that senior center off my list of retirement homes.


I could go for a place with that much restraint, if I got that old (exceedingly unlikely).  Besides being disindicated for a breathing person, basically no 87-year-old is going to survive the year of rehab from breaking every rib in her body, which would be the outcome from any CPR procedure that's worth the bother.

Why call 911?  Well, she's dying, and if she didn't write a DNR, it's easier for the hospital to deal with that.
 
2013-03-03 09:26:36 PM
Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.
 
2013-03-03 09:27:03 PM
Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.
 
2013-03-03 09:27:16 PM
Can I please have the freedom to choose how and when I die and not rot to death in one of these depressing shiatholes they call a retirement community? That'd be great, thanks
 
2013-03-03 09:27:56 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-03 09:28:47 PM

ZeroCorpse: People don't become doctors or nurses, or join the medical profession at all these day because they want to help people and save lives. These days, they do it because they want lots of money.

It's a disgrace that we even use the words "nurse" and "doctor" to describe these greedy animals. They bring dishonor to the words.


Pfft. To the people of the Gamma Forests, the word "doctor" means "mighty warrior".
 
2013-03-03 09:28:54 PM
"She's yelling at me," she said of Halvorson, "and saying we have to have one of our residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed, and I'm not going to do that, make that call."


I hate everything about you.
 
2013-03-03 09:29:32 PM

octopied: Perhaps the patients there have DNR orders.

If you don't know what that is, it's for people who are viewed as so close to death that they have orders for  no CPR to be performed, as they want to die "naturally".


Thanks! Now can you explain a "BLT"?

mimg.ugo.com
 
2013-03-03 09:29:42 PM
I am sure a breating 84 year old is much better off without a nurse slamming on her chest.  Besides, CPR works less than 1% of the time.
 
2013-03-03 09:30:28 PM

FarkinSneakyBastage: Can I please have the freedom to choose how and when I die and not rot to death in one of these depressing shiatholes they call a retirement community? That'd be great, thanks


try smoking crack, fast cars, hookers, cocaine.
 
2013-03-03 09:32:20 PM

Person: Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.


Exactly. Nothing like fake outrage from all those who fail to read the entire article and connect logical thoughts. I'm sure we'll here about this on the news for the next week.

/welcometofark.jpg?
 
2013-03-03 09:32:59 PM

NotoriousFire: Person: Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.


Exactly. Nothing like fake outrage from all those who fail to read the entire article and connect logical thoughts. I'm sure we'll here hear about this on the news for the next week.

FTFM.
 
2013-03-03 09:34:57 PM
I read this story earlier today and immediately had some PTSD type flashback to my EMT-Paramedic days. Holy shiat are nursing home nurses worthless. I have a fairly decent sample size as I worked in a few different cities of varying sizes in a couple of different states...I can't say that I met one that was genuinely helpful or competent.

In the hospitals, there were all kinds of good nurses, but never in the nursing homes. I wouldn't put my worst enemy in one.
 
2013-03-03 09:35:22 PM

Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail


I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??
 
2013-03-03 09:36:18 PM
So, if I was the family, I would sue the 911 dispatcher for telling someone to start CPR when someone is still breathing.

Good Samaritan Laws mean NOTHING if you are trained (or should have been trained) and do it wrong.  Heck even California knows this where a survivor sued the person who took her out of a burning car because her actions caused her injuries. (not the car crash, and nevermind that she probably would have suffered a fiery death had she remained in the car)
 
2013-03-03 09:37:08 PM

Person: Wouldn't have helped, the patient was 87 and CPR wasn't the appropriate treatment. The family is fine with the care she received, so this seems like manufactured outrage.


But it was too much trouble for the reporter to ask if the 911 operator had a damn clue what they were talking about, or ask any other medical professional if it was appropriate. KGET is pandering and has a partial transcript of the panicky operator.
 
2013-03-03 09:38:40 PM
International Council of Nurses' Pledge

"In the full knowledge of the task I am undertaking, I promise to take care of the sick with all the skill and understanding I possess, without regard to race, creed, color, politics, or social status, sparing no effort to conserve life, to alleviate suffering, and promote health.

I will respect at all times the dignity and religious beliefs of the patients entrusted in my care, holding in confidence all personal information entrusted to me and refraining from any action which might endanger life or health.

I will endeavor to keep my professional knowledge and skill at the highest level and give loyal support and cooperation to all members of the health team.


Or, you know, not...
 
2013-03-03 09:39:22 PM
this country is really going down the shiatter
 
2013-03-03 09:39:34 PM

fusillade762: Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail

I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??


To dispense meds, usually. As mentioned in some of the other posts, if the victim was still breathing shallowly, you're not supposed to do CPR. They want that person in the hospital so the doctor can diagnose/prescibe/treat. Not up to the nurse to make that call. Emergency dispatch can have a crew then in under 10 minutes(well they can here), They're allowed to administer oxygen and transport the person to hospital where they can be fully examined.
 
2013-03-03 09:39:46 PM

fusillade762: Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail

I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??


So the rest home can advertise that they always have a nurse on staff, 24/7.  Most people won't see the fine print that says the nurse will do nothing in an emergency.
 
2013-03-03 09:40:03 PM

fusillade762: Lehk: as a nurse is there not a duty of care? She will be lucky if she does not go to jail

I think only one state (Vermont?) has a law requiring people to give aid.

My question is: why was the nurse even there??



Like to assist the residents in wiping their behinds, walking them back and forth to the dining and bingo halls, etc. So the ADLs (activities of daily living) and such. Better that than an inappropriate treatment such as CPR, right?
 
2013-03-03 09:40:28 PM

Acravius: Here is CPR: 30 compressions 2 breaths,
                      Repeat 5 times in approximately 2 minutes
                      Assess patient for 10 seconds, listening/looking/feeling for pulse, breath or rise/fall in chest.
                      If no change, resume CPR
                      If AED is available then hook up AED, (Turn On, listen to instructions)
                      Shock, as advised by AED
                      After 3 shocks maximum
                      Assess Patient, as before
                      If no change Resume CPR 5 cycles per 2 minutes, repeat until more qualified personelle come on the scene.
Good Samaritan Laws protect people who use reasonable actions in performing these duties, regardless of outcomes.

So yes it could be instructed over the phone, and still be covered by the Good Samaritan Law.


You don't do breaths any more.
 
2013-03-03 09:41:38 PM

WhoGAS: You don't do breaths any more.


That isn't true everywhere.
 
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