If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(MIC Gadget)   Beijing's off-the-chart air pollution readings are so bad, living there is being compared to living in an airport smoking lounge. Viktor Navorski unavailable for comment   (micgadget.com) divider line 244
    More: Scary, Beijing, air pollution readings, smoking lounge, airport smoking, air pollution  
•       •       •

6443 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Mar 2013 at 3:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



244 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-03-03 02:24:37 PM
The airport smoking lounge is probably healthier. Fewer toxic industrial chemicals and such.
 
2013-03-03 02:28:45 PM
But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"
 
2013-03-03 02:30:26 PM
i1079.photobucket.com
Let me know when they reach 'Nick Winters Lounge' levels...
 
2013-03-03 02:46:30 PM

ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"


Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!

Classic.
When you take 9th grade world history you may learn something about china.
 
2013-03-03 02:46:38 PM
I'm sure the locals are relieved not to have to deal with the repressive EPA.

Lucky bastards.
 
2013-03-03 02:47:54 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!



So do a lot of the people that live there.

Wonder why.
 
2013-03-03 02:53:22 PM
I wonder if you could make a living in Beijing by running a "clean air bar" with an extensive air purification system where wealthy customers can sit and drink and breathe in fresh air.
 
2013-03-03 02:59:37 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!

Classic.
When you take 9th grade world history you may learn something about china.


Are you a moron? Because my idiot detector isn't going off. I'm talking about U.S. stockholders.
 
2013-03-03 03:17:05 PM

ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"


this also fixes their high population problems ....
 
2013-03-03 03:33:53 PM
Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

That's what the GOP wants to do to America.
 
2013-03-03 03:47:19 PM

quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

That's what the GOP wants to do to America.


But let's be honest here: is it any less than Americans deserve?
 
2013-03-03 03:51:29 PM
Looks like my perri-air stocks are gonna go up
 
2013-03-03 03:54:02 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!



Why would communists need money?
 
2013-03-03 03:54:27 PM
Airports still have smoking lounges?
 
2013-03-03 03:55:41 PM
There was a bicycle thread earlier and people were talking about carbon emissions. Someone posted about animals creating all the carbon. There's your answer China, kill all the animals. Thanks Fark.
 
2013-03-03 03:56:01 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Airports still have smoking lounges?


Have you ever traveled outside the US?
 
2013-03-03 03:56:49 PM
This is how Supply Side Jesus wants it. Are you going to argue with Supply Side Jesus?
 
2013-03-03 03:56:51 PM

Gunny Walker: tenpoundsofcheese: Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!


Why would communists need money?


So they then have more money to further invest into their businesses so they can then make even more money.

Classic commie tactics.
 
2013-03-03 03:57:54 PM
I am ok with all of this as long as the jetstream does not shoot all of that pollution across the Pacific to the US.
 
2013-03-03 03:59:12 PM
In b4 derp about no true communists, state capitalism, and deregulation.
 
2013-03-03 04:01:58 PM
chinaexpat.com
 
2013-03-03 04:03:54 PM

Horrendous Space Kablooie: AliceBToklasLives: Airports still have smoking lounges?

Have you ever traveled outside the US?


You mean where the entire airport is a smoking lounge?
 
2013-03-03 04:04:04 PM
James F. Campbell: quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

That's what the GOP wants to do to America.


But let's be honest here: is it any less than Americans deserve?

Part of me believes that people get the government they deserve in a democracy for good or ill but another part says nobody deserves the shiat the GOP is dishing out.

Color me conflicted.
 
2013-03-03 04:05:31 PM
Combine Beijing with Somalia, and you have a Libertarian's wet dream. Who needs government? Well, besides all of those people who are dying from cancer and getting murdered by warlords.  Google "Cancer Villages" and "China" and come back and tell use we don't need the EPA. We learned during our own industrial revolution that companies do not regulate themselves.
 
2013-03-03 04:05:54 PM

James F. Campbell: But let's be honest here: is it any less than Americans deserve?


Americans are lucky they don't get what they want more often.
 
2013-03-03 04:07:28 PM

quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

That's what the GOP wants to do to America.


That's why, when the GOP had both Houses of Congress and the Presidency, they did away with all those things.

Oh, hold the phone -- they didn't.  But, but they could have and, according to the Democrats, that's what they soooooooo wanted to do.  It's almost like the GOP didn't actually want to do that and the Dems are full of crap.
 
2013-03-03 04:07:35 PM

quatchi: Part of me believes that people get the government they deserve in a democracy for good or ill but another part says nobody deserves the shiat the GOP is dishing out.


gibbon1: Americans are lucky they don't get what they want more often.


"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken, A Little Book in C Major
 
2013-03-03 04:09:37 PM

RickN99: quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

That's what the GOP wants to do to America.

That's why, when the GOP had both Houses of Congress and the Presidency, they did away with all those things.

Oh, hold the phone -- they didn't.  But, but they could have and, according to the Democrats, that's what they soooooooo wanted to do.  It's almost like the GOP didn't actually want to do that and the Dems are full of crap.


Politicians and pundits lie? Next you are gonna tell me that the sky is blue and water is wet.
 
2013-03-03 04:11:34 PM
www.thepaltrysapien.com
timeecocentric.files.wordpress.com
en.es-static.us
Above is a picture of China. The gray area is pollution.
 
2013-03-03 04:11:49 PM
Just rate the air readings 'Smooth' and 'Crunchy'. Like peanut butter.
 
2013-03-03 04:12:28 PM

quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.
That's what the GOP wants to do to America.



The soviets mangled their environment in the 50's to 80's just fine without capitalism.  When no one owns a resource, no one cares to protect it.  Capitalism isn't defined by the lack of government regulations.  It just means your economy works (as opposed to, say, socialism).  But you knew that.
 
2013-03-03 04:12:31 PM
RickN99:
Oh, hold the phone -- they didn't.  But, but they could have and, according to the Democrats, that's what they soooooooo wanted to do.  It's almost like the GOP didn't actually want to do that and the Dems are full of crap.

Or, wanted to but realized it may have been political suicide to do so. Unless you're very young, you've probably run across a thing or two in your life that you wanted to do but for some reason didn't.
 
2013-03-03 04:16:06 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: When no one owns a resource, no one cares to protect it.


Ah, this old canard. Privatize everything: that's the capitalist solution to the world's ills. I suspect that you and I have vastly different definitions of "protect."
 
2013-03-03 04:19:47 PM
As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.
 
2013-03-03 04:19:56 PM
Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston
 
2013-03-03 04:21:09 PM

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston


So... you're that stupid.
 
2013-03-03 04:21:28 PM

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston


Do you have data to support that?
 
2013-03-03 04:22:14 PM

dustman81: [www.thepaltrysapien.com image 413x310]
[timeecocentric.files.wordpress.com image 600x399]
[en.es-static.us image 720x720]
Above is a picture of China. The gray area is pollution.


You were there and took those pictures right?
 
2013-03-03 04:22:48 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.
That's what the GOP wants to do to America.


The soviets mangled their environment in the 50's to 80's just fine without capitalism.  When no one owns a resource, no one cares to protect it.  Capitalism isn't defined by the lack of government regulations.  It just means your economy works (as opposed to, say, socialism).  But you knew that.


This isn't about capitalism vs. socialism vs. communism. This is about having clear air to breath and clean water to drink. Richard Nixon signed the executive order that created the EPA on December 2nd, 1970 because we had rivers so polluted they were catching fire.
 
2013-03-03 04:23:05 PM

ph0rk: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Do you have data to support that?


Besides living there?  And visiting both cities in the US?
 
2013-03-03 04:23:35 PM

SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.


If only there were some sort of "Great Wall" we could erect to keep their shiatty pollution out of our airspace.
 
2013-03-03 04:24:00 PM
I've been there, and would rather breathe the smoking lounge air. It was so unbelievable, no one believed me when I came back.
 
2013-03-03 04:24:19 PM

RickN99: Oh, hold the phone -- they didn't.  But, but they could have and, according to the Democrats, that's what they soooooooo wanted to do.  It's almost like the GOP didn't actually want to do that and the Dems are full of crap.


The history of the GOP since Reagan has been of weakening the EPA (look who Bush put in charge there, Watt as Reagan's Sec of the Interior ring any bells?) and decreasing worker's rights in favor of corporate rights. A lot of the pro pollution legislation is actually just the GOP kowtowing to their Big Energy backers.

Just because they haven't outright abolished these things doesn't mean that's not the path they are on.

Not outright murder, more the death of a 1,000 cuts, really.
 
2013-03-03 04:24:27 PM

Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.


So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport
 
2013-03-03 04:24:46 PM
China has come a long way since they had 100s of millions of starving people due to communism.  It wasn't so  long ago, we (the U.S.) were sending them billions in food aid.  Now, with capitalist reform, they are a food exporter.  They are making good progress.  They just need to get their economy under control.  Getting rid of their current "People's Republic" government would help a lot.
 
2013-03-03 04:25:36 PM
I like how they're going to put all of that money towards stopping the sandstorms, but not the pollution.
 
2013-03-03 04:25:42 PM

Kygz: I've been there, and would rather breathe the smoking lounge air. It was so unbelievable, no one believed me when I came back.


Let's see your pictures
 
2013-03-03 04:26:38 PM

dustman81: This isn't about capitalism vs. socialism vs. communism.


Yep.  That's what I was pointing out too.
 
2013-03-03 04:26:39 PM

MNguy: Let's see your pictures


Let's see yours.
 
2013-03-03 04:26:52 PM

MNguy: Besides living there? And visiting both cities in the US?


So the last time you visited LA was in the 1970s, right?
 
2013-03-03 04:27:15 PM

MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport


You'd be wrong.

Would prefer the green air of Delhi.
 
2013-03-03 04:28:30 PM

James F. Campbell: MNguy: Let's see your pictures

Let's see yours.


Heh.  Just a few of Tianamen and big old Mao portraits.
 
2013-03-03 04:29:16 PM

ByOwlLight: MNguy: Besides living there? And visiting both cities in the US?

So the last time you visited LA was in the 1970s, right?


Nope, but late 90's
 
2013-03-03 04:30:23 PM

Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport

You'd be wrong.

Would prefer the green air of Delhi.


I don't believe you that you've ever been to Beijing for more than a day or two.
 
2013-03-03 04:30:30 PM

MNguy: Nope, but late 90's


If you think late 90s LA is comparable to what Beijing is now, you're smoking something.
 
2013-03-03 04:31:48 PM
It sorta looks like what Arizona's Wallow fire did to Albuquerque skies a couple years ago.
 
2013-03-03 04:32:05 PM

ByOwlLight: MNguy: Nope, but late 90's

If you think late 90s LA is comparable to what Beijing is now, you're smoking something.


You have first hand observation of this, right?
 
2013-03-03 04:32:59 PM

MNguy: Heh. Just a few of Tianamen and big old Mao portraits.


Has Fark really become so shiatty that we've been reduced to taking fairly obvious (and not even very talented) trolls like you seriously? How depressing.
 
2013-03-03 04:34:16 PM

James F. Campbell: MNguy: Heh. Just a few of Tianamen and big old Mao portraits.

Has Fark really become so shiatty that we've been reduced to taking fairly obvious (and not even very talented) trolls like you seriously? How depressing.


Someone who has lived in Beijing and can tell you what it is like is a trooool now?  Get your head out of your ass
 
2013-03-03 04:35:09 PM

MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport


So you follow up a demonstrably wrong assertion with a personal attack. Good luck.
 
2013-03-03 04:36:18 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport

So you follow up a demonstrably wrong assertion with a personal attack. Good luck.


Raise your hand if you've yu have spent more than a day in China.
 
2013-03-03 04:37:19 PM

MNguy: ByOwlLight: MNguy: Nope, but late 90's

If you think late 90s LA is comparable to what Beijing is now, you're smoking something.

You have first hand observation of this, right?


Yes, I was in both.  Beijing's air is awful compared to LA of the late 90s.
 
2013-03-03 04:37:40 PM
Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards
 
2013-03-03 04:38:09 PM

kmmontandon: tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!


So do a lot of the people that live there.

Wonder why.


I was there in January. It's Communist In Name Only.
 
2013-03-03 04:38:29 PM

James F. Campbell: I wonder if you could make a living in Beijing by running a "clean air bar" with an extensive air purification system where wealthy customers can sit and drink and breathe in fresh air.


Oldiron_79: Looks like my perri-air stocks are gonna go up


Done and DONE (pops)
 
2013-03-03 04:39:11 PM

bhcompy: MNguy: ByOwlLight: MNguy: Nope, but late 90's

If you think late 90s LA is comparable to what Beijing is now, you're smoking something.

You have first hand observation of this, right?

Yes, I was in both.  Beijing's air is awful compared to LA of the late 90s.


It depends on the day.
 
2013-03-03 04:40:08 PM

kmmontandon: I'm sure the locals are relieved not to have to deal with the repressive EPA.

Lucky bastards.


And exempt from Kyoto Protocol, thank god because without that it would cripple their development and they wouldn't be the strongest economy in the world...........oh wait, why were they exempt again? Oh yeah because people were scared to piss them off.....
 
2013-03-03 04:40:55 PM

MNguy: bhcompy: MNguy: ByOwlLight: MNguy: Nope, but late 90's

If you think late 90s LA is comparable to what Beijing is now, you're smoking something.

You have first hand observation of this, right?

Yes, I was in both.  Beijing's air is awful compared to LA of the late 90s.

It depends on the day.


The same ridiculously vague statement can be said about if Florida is being hit by a hurricane.
 
2013-03-03 04:41:49 PM
I lived in Tianjin for half a year, many people wore face masks, but it's not any worse than the US in the shiattiar cities
 
2013-03-03 04:42:47 PM
It's my opinion that the US would be there (China's situation) now were it not for Rachel Carson and other Liberal Pinko Commies.

Unlike real 'Mericans

"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." -- Ronald Reagan, 1981

"A tree is a tree. How many more do you have to look at?" -- Ronald Reagan, 1966

At least he was consistent
 
2013-03-03 04:43:23 PM

bhcompy: MNguy: bhcompy: MNguy: ByOwlLight: MNguy: Nope, but late 90's

If you think late 90s LA is comparable to what Beijing is now, you're smoking something.

You have first hand observation of this, right?

Yes, I was in both.  Beijing's air is awful compared to LA of the late 90s.

It depends on the day.

The same ridiculously vague statement can be said about if Florida is being hit by a hurricane.


I'm sure you've lived there for quite a while, so I'll just defer to you
 
2013-03-03 04:44:53 PM

SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.


They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.
 
2013-03-03 04:45:09 PM

Marcintosh: It's my opinion that the US would be there (China's situation) now were it not for Rachel Carson and other Liberal Pinko Commies.

Unlike real 'Mericans

"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." -- Ronald Reagan, 1981

"A tree is a tree. How many more do you have to look at?" -- Ronald Reagan, 1966

At least he was consistent


Also Richard Nixon, noted Liberal Pinko Commie
 
2013-03-03 04:45:44 PM
And don't miss M.I.C. Gadget's hard-hitting iPad Holder review:


i1355.photobucket.com

/not making this up
 
2013-03-03 04:46:16 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport

So you follow up a demonstrably wrong assertion with a personal attack. Good luck.

Raise your hand if you've yu have spent more than a day in China.


*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.
 
2013-03-03 04:46:27 PM

kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.


Citation needed
 
2013-03-03 04:48:31 PM
Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.


When?
 
2013-03-03 04:49:13 PM
basically, you're full of shiat
 
2013-03-03 04:50:13 PM

MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed


http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-k or ea/130117/south-korea-toxic-smog-china-has-increased-pol

Citation given
 
2013-03-03 04:50:24 PM

MNguy: I lived in Tianjin for half a year, many people wore face masks, but it's not any worse than the US in the shiattiar cities


Cough up numbers.
 
2013-03-03 04:51:35 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-k or ea/130117/south-korea-toxic-smog-china-has-increased-pol

Citation given


Nice, lets give a global post cite.  I'm convinced.
 
2013-03-03 04:52:18 PM

Lunchlady: *raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport

So you follow up a demonstrably wrong assertion with a personal attack. Good luck.

Raise your hand if you've yu have spent more than a day in China.

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.



Same.


LA only had 18 Smog 1 alerts in 1998, to give an example of the late 90s.  Back in the 70s, you'd get something like over 100 in a year, which is why back then it could have possibly been comparable.

I could also maybe understand the gross comparison if the one day a person was in LA was also when there was a really bad wildfire with the Santa Anas blowing the smoke into the basin.  Otherwise, no.
 
2013-03-03 04:52:54 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?


Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?
 
2013-03-03 04:53:00 PM

ph0rk: MNguy: I lived in Tianjin for half a year, many people wore face masks, but it's not any worse than the US in the shiattiar cities

Cough up numbers.


Does living there not convince?  Here's a Daily Mail link.......
 
2013-03-03 04:53:15 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-k or ea/130117/south-korea-toxic-smog-china-has-increased-pol

Citation given

Nice, lets give a global post cite.  I'm convinced.


how about you providing cites?
 
2013-03-03 04:54:31 PM

MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed


Google it. I did, and the first article that popped up included a picture of what such a storm looked like and what it could do.
 
2013-03-03 04:54:31 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?


You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?
 
2013-03-03 04:55:24 PM
for all you idiots who say you have been here, and it isn't that bad. it is that bad. this has been the worst week here i have ever seen, and i have been here 10 years
 
2013-03-03 04:55:49 PM
I'm not trying to defend Beijing, but you all need some critical thinking skills
 
2013-03-03 04:56:30 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?


lol, like you are about LA?

So cute.  Such an adorable troll.
 
2013-03-03 04:56:58 PM
A picture on youtube showed it was horrible
 
2013-03-03 04:57:00 PM
basically, you're full of shiat
 
2013-03-03 04:57:08 PM
 
2013-03-03 04:57:36 PM

some_beer_drinker: for all you idiots who say you have been here, and it isn't that bad. it is that bad. this has been the worst week here i have ever seen, and i have been here 10 years


Where do you live?
 
2013-03-03 04:57:56 PM
I was there in June 2002, pics aren't digital but visibility was 2-3 city blocks. It was fairly heavy smog and it was spring. It even rained once. More pollution than I've ever seen.

/not been to LA
 
2013-03-03 04:58:22 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Combine Beijing with Somalia, and you have a Libertarian's wet dream. Who needs government? Well, besides all of those people who are dying from cancer and getting murdered by warlords.  Google "Cancer Villages" and "China" and come back and tell use we don't need the EPA. We learned during our own industrial revolution that companies do not regulate themselves.


You are using China as an example of limited government?

Poles law?
 
2013-03-03 04:58:47 PM

ByOwlLight: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

lol, like you are about LA?

So cute.  Such an adorable troll.


Nice. An idiot who thinks he knows something.
 
2013-03-03 04:58:48 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-k or ea/130117/south-korea-toxic-smog-china-has-increased-pol

Citation given

Nice, lets give a global post cite.  I'm convinced.


Ok then.

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html?pagewanted= a ll&_r=0

UK's Daily Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3334700/Chinas-pollution-c l oses-South-Korea-schools.html

Japanese source (with a helpful map!): http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ20130201008 7

In fact, the only sources that directly dispute the charge are Chinese newspapers. Imagine that.
 
2013-03-03 04:58:57 PM
Or Poe's law, depending on autocorrect settings.
 
2013-03-03 05:00:06 PM

Kygz: I was there in June 2002, pics aren't digital but visibility was 2-3 city blocks. It was fairly heavy smog and it was spring. It even rained once. More pollution than I've ever seen.

/not been to LA


I've never travelled anywhere, but the the pictures on the internet  inform me
 
2013-03-03 05:00:48 PM

MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed


Personal observation from when I lived in Suwon, South Korea in 2009.

Also here: http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/weather-yellowsand
 
2013-03-03 05:01:47 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-k or ea/130117/south-korea-toxic-smog-china-has-increased-pol

Citation given

Nice, lets give a global post cite.  I'm convinced.

Ok then.

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html?pagewanted= a ll&_r=0

UK's Daily Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3334700/Chinas-pollution-c l oses-South-Korea-schools.html

Japanese source (with a helpful map!): http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ20130201008 7

In fact, the only sources that directly dispute the charge are Chinese newspapers. Imagine that.


Huh. China Daily does dispute that.  But someone who has actually been to a place is an idiot.  Thanks
 
2013-03-03 05:02:00 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?


I literally just told you I've visited there, for more than a few days, and this same time of year. And I live in LA year round. What I saw in Eastern China a year ago is worse than anything you see in LA in the worst months like July or September.
 
2013-03-03 05:03:56 PM

kg2095: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

Personal observation from when I lived in Suwon, South Korea in 2009.

Also here: http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/weather-yellowsand


I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?
 
2013-03-03 05:04:08 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?


LOL LOL LOL....so in order to know anything about a place you need to have been there. And you have to have been there for a long enough time that you deem would be satisfactory? LOL

Why even bother arguing this. China has a huge pollution problem. Much worse than the US. You know that's true. Were the 2008 Olympics not enough where it was such a big deal that they tried to control the weather and keep people off the roads to control it? Beijing is bad, as bad as LA and probably worse. But you seem stuck on the semantics of what is worse when in reality it doesn't matter.
 
2013-03-03 05:05:24 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

I literally just told you I've visited there, for more than a few days, and this same time of year. And I live in LA year round. What I saw in Eastern China a year ago is worse than anything you see in LA in the worst months like July or September.


You're lying or selling your own self to yourself.  Beijing isn't perfect, but it's not that bad
 
2013-03-03 05:05:41 PM
Depending on who you ask, everyone here knows either everything or nothing.
 
2013-03-03 05:05:50 PM

MNguy: .

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?


I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.
 
2013-03-03 05:06:25 PM

johnny_vegas: I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.


Save your breath. Someone like him isn't capable of insight.
 
2013-03-03 05:06:41 PM

MNguy: Kygz: I was there in June 2002, pics aren't digital but visibility was 2-3 city blocks. It was fairly heavy smog and it was spring. It even rained once. More pollution than I've ever seen.

/not been to LA

I've never travelled anywhere, but the the pictures on the internet  inform me


What?

This picture is from last August which is pretty much the worst month in LA for air quality.

www.blogcdn.com

This picture is from this past week.

images.mnn.com

Distance in the first picture: 10 or so miles to the buildings downtown.
Distance in the second: 500 feet?

If you were arguing that LA was just as bad on its worst days in the 80's than I might go along with you. But you are smoking crack if you think the air in LA is even comparable today the worst days in China.
 
2013-03-03 05:07:10 PM

ActionJoe: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

LOL LOL LOL....so in order to know anything about a place you need to have been there. And you have to have been there for a long enough time that you deem would be satisfactory? LOL

Why even bother arguing this. China has a huge pollution problem. Much worse than the US. You know that's true. Were the 2008 Olympics not enough where it was such a big deal that they tried to control the weather and keep people off the roads to control it? Beijing is bad, as bad as LA and probably worse. But you seem stuck on the semantics of what is worse when in reality it doesn't matter.


You're right, but I do get pissed when folks just spout off about shiat they don't know about
 
2013-03-03 05:08:39 PM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: .

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?

I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.


You asseholes have made me defend China.  I'd rather not
 
2013-03-03 05:09:13 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

I literally just told you I've visited there, for more than a few days, and this same time of year. And I live in LA year round. What I saw in Eastern China a year ago is worse than anything you see in LA in the worst months like July or September.

You're lying or selling your own self to yourself.  Beijing isn't perfect, but it's not that bad


You got me. I'm making shiat up so I can be right on the internet. Yep.

I'm not attacking the city, I enjoyed myself very much in China. I'm attacking your foolish assertion that the air in Beijing is no worse than LA. That is factually incorrect.
 
2013-03-03 05:09:33 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: Kygz: I was there in June 2002, pics aren't digital but visibility was 2-3 city blocks. It was fairly heavy smog and it was spring. It even rained once. More pollution than I've ever seen.

/not been to LA

I've never travelled anywhere, but the the pictures on the internet  inform me

What?

This picture is from last August which is pretty much the worst month in LA for air quality.

[www.blogcdn.com image 628x420]

This picture is from this past week.

[images.mnn.com image 850x566]

Distance in the first picture: 10 or so miles to the buildings downtown.
Distance in the second: 500 feet?

If you were arguing that LA was just as bad on its worst days in the 80's than I might go along with you. But you are smoking crack if you think the air in LA is even comparable today the worst days in China.


You took those pictures?
 
2013-03-03 05:11:20 PM

Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

I literally just told you I've visited there, for more than a few days, and this same time of year. And I live in LA year round. What I saw in Eastern China a year ago is worse than anything you see in LA in the worst months like July or September.

You're lying or selling your own self to yourself.  Beijing isn't perfect, but it's not that bad

You got me. I'm making shiat up so I can be right on the internet. Yep.

I'm not attacking the city, I enjoyed myself very much in China. I'm attacking your foolish assertion that the air in Beijing is no worse than LA. That is factually incorrect.


I don't think you spent a lot of time there.  It's a shiathole, but not any worse than LA and if you're honest, you'll agree
 
2013-03-03 05:11:47 PM
This is a photo of Xi'an taken from my hotel window in early January. I would assume smog would be worse in summer but it's still quite obviously obscuring buildings in the background. Beijing being much bigger than Xi'an is probably worse.

i1281.photobucket.com

You could get the impression that China is ugly from this photo, but it's not all like this. I have other photos of Xi'an that are spectacular.
 
2013-03-03 05:12:38 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!

Classic.
When you take 9th grade world history you may learn something about china.


Funny! You think China is communist!

Having been to Beijing in the last year, let me assure you: you're an idiot. Communism involves a complete lack of private enterprise and private wealth. It also typically involves things like universal healthcare (healthcare in China is strictly for those who can afford it) and some sort of retiree care (hah!). What China DOES have is an attitude of "if you can get away with it without making the Chinese government look bad, do it." In many ways, China is far more Laissez Fair in regards to business than we are.
 
2013-03-03 05:12:49 PM

kg2095: This is a photo of Xi'an taken from my hotel window in early January. I would assume smog would be worse in summer but it's still quite obviously obscuring buildings in the background. Beijing being much bigger than Xi'an is probably worse.

[i1281.photobucket.com image 850x637]

You could get the impression that China is ugly from this photo, but it's not all like this. I have other photos of Xi'an that are spectacular.


Did you get to see the warriors?
 
2013-03-03 05:13:59 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

I literally just told you I've visited there, for more than a few days, and this same time of year. And I live in LA year round. What I saw in Eastern China a year ago is worse than anything you see in LA in the worst months like July or September.

You're lying or selling your own self to yourself.  Beijing isn't perfect, but it's not that bad


Hate to break this to you, LA's air quality has steadily improved since 1960.  Thew catalytic converter began the trend and high mileage vehicles replacing the earlier ones have continued it.

Greener cars have improved L.A. air quality
Smog-producing compounds in Los Angeles are down 98 percent since the 1960s. They're down by half just since 2002, thanks to higher-mileage cars.http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/0825/Greener-car s-have- improved-L.A.-air-quality

China is not in the stag of industrialization where the population are fat and happy enough to demand environmental controls.  They are interested in money, and pretty much only money right now.  The entire 2nd world is in this stage, but likely will go through in MUCH faster than the West simply because all the cleaner stuff has already been invented.  There are all kinds of technologies that the 2nd and 3rd world can simply import and copy and not have to pollute as badly.
 
2013-03-03 05:14:38 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Lunchlady:

*raises hand*

And I live in Los Angeles. Beijing is worse. LA has never canceled flights because of pollution, Beijing has.

When?

Last March, spent three weeks in China. Started about 2 weeks later than today.

You want to keep digging?

You want to keep talking shiat when you don't know anything about a place?

I literally just told you I've visited there, for more than a few days, and this same time of year. And I live in LA year round. What I saw in Eastern China a year ago is worse than anything you see in LA in the worst months like July or September.

You're lying or selling your own self to yourself.  Beijing isn't perfect, but it's not that bad

You got me. I'm making shiat up so I can be right on the internet. Yep.

I'm not attacking the city, I enjoyed myself very much in China. I'm attacking your foolish assertion that the air in Beijing is no worse than LA. That is factually incorrect.

I don't think you spent a lot of time there.  It's a shiathole, but not any worse than LA and if you're honest, you'll agree


Well like I said, I spent three weeks so I'm not sure if that qualifies to your standards, but it has nothing to do with me being honest, it's backed up by numbers. http://www.numbeo.com/pollution/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+St a tes&country2=China&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Beijing
 
2013-03-03 05:14:50 PM

MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: .

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?

I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.

You asseholes have made me defend China.  I'd rather not


you entered the thread by asserting Beijing was no worse than LA or Houston...so oyur method of defense was attcking other cities.  Then you never provided any cites other than oyu used to live in those places at some unspecified time.

No one made you do anything, you are contrary and abrasive by your internet nature and got pwned repeatedly.
 
2013-03-03 05:15:13 PM

MNguy: kg2095: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

Personal observation from when I lived in Suwon, South Korea in 2009.

Also here: http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/weather-yellowsand

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?


I'm not judging you. I'm just stating my own experiences.
 
2013-03-03 05:16:00 PM

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston


When visibility in Houston or Los Angeles is reduced to 20ft due to green-grey smog on a regular basis (or ever, for that matter) then you can say that.
 
2013-03-03 05:16:12 PM

Tourney3p0: Depending on who you ask, everyone here knows either everything or nothing.


I know both everything and nothing at the same time.
 
2013-03-03 05:17:32 PM

Lunchlady: M

Well like I said, I spent three weeks so I'm not sure if that qualifies to your standards, but it has nothing to do with me being honest, it's backed up by numbers. http://www.numbeo.com/pollution/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+St a tes&country2=China&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Beijing


No, that doesn't cut it.  Google pics do not exchange for personal photos.
 
2013-03-03 05:18:27 PM
I lived in Beijing from '08 to '11.  The pollution was awful. It lasted throughout the year.  No season except maybe fall was particurly clean.  You couldn't see past a city block on the worst days.  When you blew your nose, there was black shiat in your snot.. and people coughed up phlegm all the time.  By the end, the dryness and the pollution not only had an effect on my breezing but also on my skin as well.  Pretty much every other expat complained about the air quality, especially if you have kids.   Anecdotal?  Yeah sure, but it doesn't take a scientist or someone who follows the day-to-day data to see that Beijing air is filthy.  It was a rare or uncommon day to see blue skies... even rarer to see the mountain ranges that surround Beijing.

I now live in LA.  Yeah, maybe its not the best air quality in the country, but there are major differences between LA and Beijing.  LA faces the ocean so that acts as a natural air cleaner.  There are plenty of days where you can see the blue skies (hell, its a majority of the year).  And there aren't the coal firing plants like in China which cause a big chunk of the pollution... oh and there is the EPA in the US.  I have no problems about jogging outside, nor does it look like its a concern for most people in this fitness crazy town.

The idea of comparing the two on air quality is totally laughable.
 
2013-03-03 05:18:46 PM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: .

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?

I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.

You asseholes have made me defend China.  I'd rather not

you entered the thread by asserting Beijing was no worse than LA or Houston...so oyur method of defense was attcking other cities.  Then you never provided any cites other than oyu used to live in those places at some unspecified time.

No one made you do anything, you are contrary and abrasive by your internet nature and got pwned repeatedly.


You've lived in all those places, so I'll defer to you
 
2013-03-03 05:18:57 PM

MNguy: kg2095: This is a photo of Xi'an taken from my hotel window in early January. I would assume smog would be worse in summer but it's still quite obviously obscuring buildings in the background. Beijing being much bigger than Xi'an is probably worse.

[i1281.photobucket.com image 850x637]

You could get the impression that China is ugly from this photo, but it's not all like this. I have other photos of Xi'an that are spectacular.

Did you get to see the warriors?


Yep. I have pictures - I can send you a link if you want to see them...
 
2013-03-03 05:21:04 PM
My view in Shanghai
i.imgur.com


Looked like this at ground level. That is to say visibility started to get hazy at 30 ft. I was trying to get the fogginess in the picture from the front of the bus, but it started to drive out so I had to get out of the way.
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-03 05:21:11 PM

LincolnLogolas: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

When visibility in Houston or Los Angeles is reduced to 20ft due to green-grey smog on a regular basis (or ever, for that matter) then you can say that.


China is not the big bad devil man.
 
2013-03-03 05:21:17 PM
Dirty, Dirty people.

I spend a month and half in china last year, and not even in Beijing, which is considered one of the worst spots.

 It took me to the third week to see the sun, and it had nothing to do with rain and clouds.
 
2013-03-03 05:23:42 PM

kg2095: MNguy: kg2095: This is a photo of Xi'an taken from my hotel window in early January. I would assume smog would be worse in summer but it's still quite obviously obscuring buildings in the background. Beijing being much bigger than Xi'an is probably worse.

[i1281.photobucket.com image 850x637]

You could get the impression that China is ugly from this photo, but it's not all like this. I have other photos of Xi'an that are spectacular.

Did you get to see the warriors?

Yep. I have pictures - I can send you a link if you want to see them...


I got there myself,I can't imagine living there
 
2013-03-03 05:24:34 PM

MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: .

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?

I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.

You asseholes have made me defend China.  I'd rather not

you entered the thread by asserting Beijing was no worse than LA or Houston...so oyur method of defense was attcking other cities.  Then you never provided any cites other than oyu used to live in those places at some unspecified time.

No one made you do anything, you are contrary and abrasive by your internet nature and got pwned repeatedly.

You've lived in all those places, so I'll defer to you


You would be wise to defer to me, but I doubt you have that judgement.


So lets be clear, you are saying Los Angeles currently has worse (or at least as bad) air quality as Beijing right?
 
2013-03-03 05:26:00 PM
Man, you send one dunning krueger victim to the bin, and half the thread vanishes.
 
2013-03-03 05:26:12 PM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: .

I hated my time in China, I hated a lot of things, but for farks sake can we be be a bit non-judgemental?

I suggest you read your posts in this thread and then read your above statement. Might provide some insights for you.

You asseholes have made me defend China.  I'd rather not

you entered the thread by asserting Beijing was no worse than LA or Houston...so oyur method of defense was attcking other cities.  Then you never provided any cites other than oyu used to live in those places at some unspecified time.

No one made you do anything, you are contrary and abrasive by your internet nature and got pwned repeatedly.

You've lived in all those places, so I'll defer to you

You would be wise to defer to me, but I doubt you have that judgement.


So lets be clear, you are saying Los Angeles currently has worse (or at least as bad) air quality as Beijing right?


LA used to have the same shiat air quality.  Reading is hard.
 
2013-03-03 05:28:01 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Combine Beijing with Somalia, and you have a Libertarian's wet dream. Who needs government? Well, besides all of those people who are dying from cancer and getting murdered by warlords.  Google "Cancer Villages" and "China" and come back and tell use we don't need the EPA. We learned during our own industrial revolution that companies do not regulate themselves.


Yes, but sadly, no matter how painfully we learn a lesson, it seems like two or three generations must of us have forgotten it.  Doomed to repeat it, yadda yadda.
 
2013-03-03 05:29:35 PM

MNguy: ph0rk: MNguy: I lived in Tianjin for half a year, many people wore face masks, but it's not any worse than the US in the shiattiar cities

Cough up numbers.

Does living there not convince?



Anecdotes are not the same as data.
 
2013-03-03 05:30:58 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!


Funny!
You think China is a communist country!

They're even more into unfettered capitalism than we are.
It's like the good ole' 19th century over there, with accompanying child labor and terrible wages/hours for manual laborers.  Oh, and unfettered pollution production.
 
2013-03-03 05:31:20 PM
I've lived in the greater Houston metro region for over 25 years, and I've seen some smog.  I've seen plenty of ozone alerts.  But I've NEVER, let me repeat NEVER, seen smog like I'm seeing in these pictures of China, or what I saw on TV watching the 2008 Olympics.
 
2013-03-03 05:31:57 PM
MNguy:
China is not the big bad devil man.

No, it's just a crappy, heavily-polluted country. With corruption and resource shortage issues.
 
2013-03-03 05:32:12 PM

MNguy: LA used to have the same shiat air quality.  Reading is hard.


MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston


Indeed.  Comprehension is also hard apparently.
 
2013-03-03 05:32:30 PM

SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.


They don't.  They generously donate it to the rest of Asia.  Korea is downwind and gets the brunt of it.
 
2013-03-03 05:32:53 PM
LOL at someone trying to compare LA pollution to Beijing pollution today. Reminds me of FARK during the 08 olympics and seeing all the pro-China sycophants flooding the threads trying to deny anything Anti-China.
 
2013-03-03 05:32:58 PM

kmmontandon: MNguy: ph0rk: MNguy: I lived in Tianjin for half a year, many people wore face masks, but it's not any worse than the US in the shiattiar cities

Cough up numbers.

Does living there not convince?


Anecdotes are not the same as data.


Better than conjecture.
 
2013-03-03 05:34:10 PM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: LA used to have the same shiat air quality.  Reading is hard.

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Indeed.  Comprehension is also hard apparently.


Tell me about your time in China.  I'm listening
 
2013-03-03 05:34:21 PM

kg2095: This is a photo of Xi'an taken from my hotel window in early January. I would assume smog would be worse in summer but it's still quite obviously obscuring buildings in the background. Beijing being much bigger than Xi'an is probably worse.

[i1281.photobucket.com image 850x637]

You could get the impression that China is ugly from this photo, but it's not all like this. I have other photos of Xi'an that are spectacular.


When I was there, Xi'an was probably one of the ugliest cities on the planet.  I spent my 20th birthday there getting drunk and watching a midget stripper.  Other than the terracotta warriors, the other two things they do there is make locomotives and open-pit mine for coal.  1400 trucks a week leave the pits loaded with coal.  The dust from that drifts all over town.

That said, the history there is amazing.  And maybe the other stuff has changed in the last 12 years.
 
2013-03-03 05:35:21 PM

cirby: MNguy:
China is not the big bad devil man.

No, it's just a crappy, heavily-polluted country. With corruption and resource shortage issues.


Again, tell me about your time in China, because I don't think you know anything
 
2013-03-03 05:35:36 PM

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: My view in Shanghai
[i.imgur.com image 850x637]


Looked like this at ground level. That is to say visibility started to get hazy at 30 ft. I was trying to get the fogginess in the picture from the front of the bus, but it started to drive out so I had to get out of the way.
[i.imgur.com image 850x637]


Whoa whoa whoa. Are these even your photos? Is this even China? How long have you been there? Have you been to LA? You aren't qualified to speak on this topic if you don't meet MN's standards. Just putting those questions out there before he asks.
 
2013-03-03 05:35:48 PM
And if you think the air is bad, there's the water, which is worse.
 
2013-03-03 05:37:55 PM

ActionJoe: Mayhem of the Black Underclass: My view in Shanghai
[i.imgur.com image 850x637]


Looked like this at ground level. That is to say visibility started to get hazy at 30 ft. I was trying to get the fogginess in the picture from the front of the bus, but it started to drive out so I had to get out of the way.
[i.imgur.com image 850x637]

Whoa whoa whoa. Are these even your photos? Is this even China? How long have you been there? Have you been to LA? You aren't qualified to speak on this topic if you don't meet MN's standards. Just putting those questions out there before he asks.


I just read the daily news and form my opinions
 
2013-03-03 05:40:05 PM
Why argue about who has the worst pollution? Pollution is undeniably bad for all of us. It doesn't matter where it is, it hurts us all.
 
2013-03-03 05:42:35 PM

MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: LA used to have the same shiat air quality.  Reading is hard.

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Indeed.  Comprehension is also hard apparently.

Tell me about your time in China.  I'm listening


Sure!  My only experiences in China have been several trips to Hong Kong, pre and post.

I look forward to your ad hominem attacks based on that.  After you take a breath please address the following:
YOU said LA was as bad as Beijing now.
YOU were presented with lots of data refuting your claim
YOU then moved the goal posts saying LA used to be as bad as Beijing

Now how about you look out your window and tell me the air quality index (or whatever quantifiable metric you want to use) wherever you currently live and then compare LA and Beijing air quality right now.

I'm waiting.
 
2013-03-03 05:42:53 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Airports still have smoking lounges?


Some do. McCarran (Las Vegas), and last time I was in Denver, they had a bar where you could smoke (9 AM black Russians FTW). And some airport I've been to on the east coast within the last few years had one, but I can't remember where it was (maybe Charlotte or Roanoke). In most, the "smoking lounge" is outside.
 
2013-03-03 05:43:03 PM
China is becoming the ultimate expression of Randism.
 
2013-03-03 05:43:55 PM

quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.


I seem to recall that actually Communist East Germany managed to rampage all over their environment despite ostensible concern for worker's rights and an utter absence of capitalism.
 
2013-03-03 05:44:13 PM

MNguy: ph0rk: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Do you have data to support that?

Besides living there?  And visiting both cities in the US?


Yes, besides that.  Your personal anecdote is not that persuasive, frankly.
 
2013-03-03 05:45:38 PM

kmmontandon: tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!


So do a lot of the people that live there.

Wonder why.


it doesnt really matter what they are. our capitalism, well variation thereof, drives their pollution.   But Walmart !!
 
2013-03-03 05:46:07 PM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: LA used to have the same shiat air quality.  Reading is hard.

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Indeed.  Comprehension is also hard apparently.

Tell me about your time in China.  I'm listening

Sure!  My only experiences in China have been several trips to Hong Kong, pre and post.

I look forward to your ad hominem attacks based on that.  After you take a breath please address the following:
YOU said LA was as bad as Beijing now.
YOU were presented with lots of data refuting your claim
YOU then moved the goal posts saying LA used to be as bad as Beijing

Now how about you look out your window and tell me the air quality index (or whatever quantifiable metric you want to use) wherever you currently live and then compare LA and Beijing air quality right now.

I'm waiting.


Hong Kong is not China.  But you keep on keeping on, because you know everything
 
2013-03-03 05:46:28 PM

MNguy: I just read the daily news and form my opinions


In China?
 
2013-03-03 05:46:36 PM
Wot's all this then?

4.bp.blogspot.com
2.bp.blogspot.com
www.npr.org

/London, 1952
 
2013-03-03 05:47:23 PM

ciberido: MNguy: ph0rk: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Do you have data to support that?

Besides living there?  And visiting both cities in the US?

Yes, besides that.  Your personal anecdote is not that persuasive, frankly.


I don't know what else might be.
 
2013-03-03 05:47:26 PM

johnny_vegas: knock yourselves out.....

http://www.numbeo.com/pollution/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+S ta tes&country2=China&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Beijing


So, the troll is full of shiat?

My surprised face... -__-
 
2013-03-03 05:48:08 PM

MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: LA used to have the same shiat air quality.  Reading is hard.

MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

Indeed.  Comprehension is also hard apparently.

Tell me about your time in China.  I'm listening

Sure!  My only experiences in China have been several trips to Hong Kong, pre and post.

I look forward to your ad hominem attacks based on that.  After you take a breath please address the following:
YOU said LA was as bad as Beijing now.
YOU were presented with lots of data refuting your claim
YOU then moved the goal posts saying LA used to be as bad as Beijing

Now how about you look out your window and tell me the air quality index (or whatever quantifiable metric you want to use) wherever you currently live and then compare LA and Beijing air quality right now.

I'm waiting.

Hong Kong is not China.  But you keep on keeping on, because you know everything


so answer the questions, go ahead...tell us again how you are correct

you are intellectually dishonest
 
2013-03-03 05:54:18 PM

quatchi: RickN99: Oh, hold the phone -- they didn't.  But, but they could have and, according to the Democrats, that's what they soooooooo wanted to do.  It's almost like the GOP didn't actually want to do that and the Dems are full of crap.

The history of the GOP since Reagan has been of weakening the EPA (look who Bush put in charge there, Watt as Reagan's Sec of the Interior ring any bells?) and decreasing worker's rights in favor of corporate rights. A lot of the pro pollution legislation is actually just the GOP kowtowing to their Big Energy backers.

Just because they haven't outright abolished these things doesn't mean that's not the path they are on.


Chris Mooney's book "The Republic War on Science" details some of the things Republics have been doing to cripple the EPA.  I'm sure there are plenty of other books out there that cover the topic, but this is one of the first one that comes to mind.

And it's a particularly dishonest tactic, much like "Intelligent Design" is dishonest.  In both cases, there's an agenda masquerading as science.
 
2013-03-03 05:55:55 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go

I bet you don't have a passport

So you follow up a demonstrably wrong assertion with a personal attack. Good luck.

Raise your hand if you've yu have spent more than a day in China.


*raises hand*
 
2013-03-03 05:58:27 PM

This text is now purple: quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

I seem to recall that actually Communist East Germany managed to rampage all over their environment despite ostensible concern for worker's rights and an utter absence of capitalism.


Good point. Ceded.

Still, the idea that China (the world fastest growing economy and the globe's new manufacturing base) is basically analogous to the late 19th century America in that it has little to no worker's rights or environmental laws and that the GOP have worked to steadily erode those hard fought laws in the name of being "more competitive" has legs.
 
2013-03-03 05:58:36 PM

MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed


And earlier you just used personal experience as your "proof."  I don't know what the hell your problem is, whether you're a troll, or being paid by China to push propaganda, or just a really belligerent crank, but whatever.  Done with you.
 
2013-03-03 06:00:28 PM

ciberido: I don't know what the hell your problem is, whether you're a troll, or being paid by China to push propaganda, or just a really belligerent crank, but whatever.


They need to ask him for their money back.
 
2013-03-03 06:00:52 PM

WordsnCollision: Wot's all this then?


The lesson China should've learned from. China could help things a lot with the simplest of things, like charcoal air scrubbers. Won't take out all the nasty stuff, but will take out a huge amount of it.  And it's not like activated charcoal is hard or expensive to make.
 
2013-03-03 06:03:07 PM

ciberido: Chris Mooney's book "The Republican War on Science" details some of the things Republics have been doing to cripple the EPA.  I'm sure there are plenty of other books out there that cover the topic, but this is one of the first one that comes to mind.


Sounds like a good read. Thanks for the recommend. Cheers!

And it's a particularly dishonest tactic, much like "Intelligent Design" is dishonest.  In both cases, there's an agenda masquerading as science.

I cannot disagree.

Intellectual dishonesty and willful inculcated ignorance seem to be the GOP's stock in trade these days.

More's the pity.
 
2013-03-03 06:04:47 PM
MNguy: Lunchlady: MNguy: Shadow Blasko: MNguy: Beijing isn't any worse than LA or Houston

So... you're that stupid.

So, USA is #1. Go go go



What's your point?  That LA and other cities in the US used to have as bad pollution as Chinese cities?  You supposedly lived in Tianjin and I lived in Beijing.  And so I am surprised you're arguing that living in Beijing is no different than a US city in terms of pollution.

I don't know of any expats or students who currently live in, or used to live in China that think that the air pollution is remotely comparable to back home.

And what does this have to with making China into an evil bogeyman and rah rah-ing the US? The fact is the air environmental controls are in place in the US and aren't in China.  China is simply a far more dirty environment to live in.
 
2013-03-03 06:06:29 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady: M

Well like I said, I spent three weeks so I'm not sure if that qualifies to your standards, but it has nothing to do with me being honest, it's backed up by numbers. http://www.numbeo.com/pollution/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+St a tes&country2=China&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Beijing

No, that doesn't cut it.  Google pics do not exchange for personal photos.


www.lorensworld.com

That is the worst possible picture I can find of LA on Google images, best I can tell it comes from 2011. Yep, looks pretty crappy, but I'd say visibility is about 5-10 miles.

If you can find me one single picture of LA taken in the last 5 years that's as bad as the pictures of China from last week I'll cede the point and declare you correct.

Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.
 
2013-03-03 06:09:50 PM

Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.


Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.
 
2013-03-03 06:09:56 PM

RickN99: quatchi: Ah Capitalism, untrammeled by EPA standards or pesky workers rights.

That's what the GOP wants to do to America.

That's why, when the GOP had both Houses of Congress and the Presidency, they did away with all those things.

Oh, hold the phone -- they didn't.  But, but they could have and, according to the Democrats, that's what they soooooooo wanted to do.  It's almost like the GOP didn't actually want to do that and the Dems are full of crap.


Like the Clear Skies Initiative, and the Healthy Forests Initiative, and any other number of doublespeaky things they pushed for?
 
2013-03-03 06:16:24 PM
Key to living in Beijing: get the highest apartment possible.

livedoor.4.blogimg.jp
livedoor.4.blogimg.jp
livedoor.4.blogimg.jp
 
2013-03-03 06:16:54 PM

MNguy: kmmontandon: MNguy: ph0rk: MNguy: I lived in Tianjin for half a year, many people wore face masks, but it's not any worse than the US in the shiattiar cities

Cough up numbers.

Does living there not convince?


Anecdotes are not the same as data.

Better than conjecture.


And air quality measurements are better than both.

Maybe you should try those.
 
2013-03-03 06:17:05 PM

WhyteRaven74: Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.

Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.


We tried that, he ignored that link. Photos seem to get the best results.
 
2013-03-03 06:26:54 PM

WhyteRaven74: Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.

Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.


Shanghai has an interesting English-language online AQI monitoring page with a real-time webcam and a cute way to display the air pollution level:

hsu.me

Seems to be decent today so far with a current PPM of "only" 118. Mind you, Shanghai is not Beijing.
 
2013-03-03 06:28:32 PM

WordsnCollision: Key to living in Beijing: get the highest apartment possible.

[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x471]
[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x463]
[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x446]


That's pretty badass.
 
2013-03-03 06:29:59 PM

ajgeek: tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!

Classic.
When you take 9th grade world history you may learn something about china.

Are you a moron? Because my idiot detector isn't going off. I'm talking about U.S. stockholders.


Is there any other kind of stockholders???

/rich old and white are the only important modifiers in the English language
 
2013-03-03 06:31:22 PM
Christ, what an asshole.
 
2013-03-03 06:31:47 PM

born_yesterday: WordsnCollision: Key to living in Beijing: get the highest apartment possible.

[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x471]
[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x463]
[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x446]

That's pretty badass.


More here.
 
2013-03-03 06:37:19 PM

WordsnCollision: Seems to be decent today so far with a current PPM of "only" 118. Mind you, Shanghai is not Beijing.


yeah, Shanghai never seems to get it as bad as Beijing, which gets it super bad.
 
2013-03-03 06:49:33 PM

WordsnCollision: WhyteRaven74: Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.

Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.

Shanghai has an interesting English-language online AQI monitoring page with a real-time webcam and a cute way to display the air pollution level:

[hsu.me image 810x138]

Seems to be decent today so far with a current PPM of "only" 118. Mind you, Shanghai is not Beijing.


It needs a 500+ with the face starting to melt.
 
2013-03-03 06:53:03 PM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110224010449/fallout/images/c / c0/The_Cloud.jpg


"The Cloud is what blankets the sky here... you may smell it in the air, copper and sulfur... burns the lungs and seeps into the skin".

/obscure?
 
2013-03-03 07:28:24 PM

WordsnCollision: Key to living in Beijing: get the highest apartment possible.


That looks like fog.
 
2013-03-03 07:38:37 PM

ActionJoe: Mayhem of the Black Underclass: My view in Shanghai
[i.imgur.com image 850x637]


Looked like this at ground level. That is to say visibility started to get hazy at 30 ft. I was trying to get the fogginess in the picture from the front of the bus, but it started to drive out so I had to get out of the way.
[i.imgur.com image 850x637]

Whoa whoa whoa. Are these even your photos? Is this even China? How long have you been there? Have you been to LA? You aren't qualified to speak on this topic if you don't meet MN's standards. Just putting those questions out there before he asks.


These are my photos, yes. This is, in fact, China. I was there in August. I've been to LA, my in-laws live in Burbank. I don't know what the standards are, get pissy and shiat all over a thread because I'm a huge troll? I'll see if I have some photos from Beijing when I get to work tomorrow. It seems absurd to me, now, that they aren't available online at this very moment.
 
2013-03-03 08:02:27 PM

Jument: Why argue about who has the worst pollution? Pollution is undeniably bad for all of us. It doesn't matter where it is, it hurts us all.


because this isn't about pollution per se. This is about American superiority and general disdain on fark for everything Chinese. Pollution being a bad thing that everyone agrees on...presents the perfect ammunition for anti Chinese sychopants on Fark to cleverly disguise their racially motivated agendas while at the same time able to push the mentality of American supremacy as being superior humans over the yellow skined small dick Asians w/o being too obvious.
 
2013-03-03 08:07:01 PM
Remember back in the 70's with all the chemical and steel plants operating in Western NY. The snow would be either gray or green or red.
 
2013-03-03 08:23:41 PM
Sounds like China needs an EPA, workers' unions, and a fair minimum wage.

Funny that a lot of people think the United States needs less of those exact things.
 
2013-03-03 08:24:58 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Combine Beijing with Somalia, and you have a Libertarian's wet dream. Who needs government? Well, besides all of those people who are dying from cancer and getting murdered by warlords.  Google "Cancer Villages" and "China" and come back and tell use we don't need the EPA. We learned during our own industrial revolution that companies do not regulate themselves.


You shut your non-understanding whore mouth with that "Libertarians" crap. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.  Libertarians come in many flavors of limited government intervention, just like other political parties have members across their whole spectrum. They want as little government as possible and still function. Everything from a bit less law than we have now all the way to a state of anarchy can be attributed to someone who simply wants less government.  Even if a *very* select tiny miniscule amount of L's would want this amount of lax regulation, they would change their tune in a hurry I think when it got this bad.

Please refrain from further comments until you've completed a few thousand more cycles on this planet.
 
2013-03-03 08:40:09 PM

SuperNinjaToad: Jument: Why argue about who has the worst pollution? Pollution is undeniably bad for all of us. It doesn't matter where it is, it hurts us all.

because this isn't about pollution per se. This is about American superiority and general disdain on fark for everything Chinese. Pollution being a bad thing that everyone agrees on...presents the perfect ammunition for anti Chinese sychopants on Fark to cleverly disguise their racially motivated agendas while at the same time able to push the mentality of American supremacy as being superior humans over the yellow skined small dick Asians w/o being too obvious.


I see. Carry on then!
 
2013-03-03 08:51:14 PM

kriegfusion: shower_in_my_socks: Combine Beijing with Somalia, and you have a Libertarian's wet dream. Who needs government? Well, besides all of those people who are dying from cancer and getting murdered by warlords.  Google "Cancer Villages" and "China" and come back and tell use we don't need the EPA. We learned during our own industrial revolution that companies do not regulate themselves.

You shut your non-understanding whore mouth with that "Libertarians" crap. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.  Libertarians come in many flavors of limited government intervention, just like other political parties have members across their whole spectrum. They want as little government as possible and still function. Everything from a bit less law than we have now all the way to a state of anarchy can be attributed to someone who simply wants less government.  Even if a *very* select tiny miniscule amount of L's would want this amount of lax regulation, they would change their tune in a hurry I think when it got this bad.

Please refrain from further comments until you've completed a few thousand more cycles on this planet.


LOLWUT? The capital 'L' in Libertarian denotes the Libertarian party in his statement, and they're a bunch of nutters as much as the Green Party is.
 
2013-03-03 09:09:36 PM

ciberido: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

And earlier you just used personal experience as your "proof."  I don't know what the hell your problem is, whether you're a troll, or being paid by China to push propaganda, or just a really belligerent crank, but whatever.   Done with you.


That's fine with me. The last thing I want is aggressive, angry people responding to my posts.
 
2013-03-03 09:11:53 PM
Bunch of nutters huh. Really? I consider myself closer to being Libertarian than any of those other yahoo parties (and even I acknowledge the many different types of people in those parties of course) and I am probably closer to the big government side of things on certain situations. I think universal healthcare and education should be seriously looked at. I grew up a total diehard Rush Limbaugh supporter (as much as a youth can support something they dont fully understand) and believed his whole bullshiat about government doing no good and business has the answer to everything.  I now see , such as this example in china, unfettered government negligence on an issue  can directly lead to the deaths of people.

I firmly believe the old maxim of "that government is best which governs least", but I do think however distasteful government is, we need some. I  no longer blindly follow corporations and their propaganda, same with government BS we hear day in and day out.

The L party is made up of many, many people from all walks of life, and they disagree constantly on what levels of intervention are best. It's a great thing, this discourse.  If thats your idea of nutter, then call me Nutella, and spread me all over your delicious body.
 
2013-03-03 09:30:37 PM
Dude, the Libertarian party specifically has a stance saying that the free market will control the usage of natural resources so that they won't be misused.  China is a pretty good example of unfettered usage of natural resources, and they're polluting themselves.

They also claim education and health care is best addressed through the free market also.  Something that has repeatedly been shown to increase the stratification of the population where it is used.  The U.S. is a decent example, despite the mild regulation, of how free market style health care f*cks people without the money to pay for it.

I don't know who the hell you are, but you don't know what the party you claim to be part of, or similar in beliefs to, actual purports to accomplish.
 
2013-03-03 09:45:33 PM

Thats No Moose: ciberido: I don't know what the hell your problem is, whether you're a troll, or being paid by China to push propaganda, or just a really belligerent crank, but whatever.

They need to ask him for their money back.


It. They need to ask it for their money back.
 
2013-03-03 09:51:04 PM

Lunchlady: WhyteRaven74: Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.

Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.

We tried that, he ignored that link. Photos seem to get the best results.


Being an obstinate ignoramus just comes so easily to some. Apparently living somewhere for 6 months makes you an infallible expert on every single f*cking thing about that place. No need for citations, data, or...you know...facts.
 
2013-03-03 09:51:45 PM

kriegfusion: Bunch of nutters huh. Really? I consider myself closer to being Libertarian than any of those other yahoo parties (and even I acknowledge the many different types of people in those parties of course) and I am probably closer to the big government side of things on certain situations. I think universal healthcare and education should be seriously looked at. I grew up a total diehard Rush Limbaugh supporter (as much as a youth can support something they dont fully understand) and believed his whole bullshiat about government doing no good and business has the answer to everything.  I now see , such as this example in china, unfettered government negligence on an issue  can directly lead to the deaths of people.

I firmly believe the old maxim of "that government is best which governs least", but I do think however distasteful government is, we need some. I  no longer blindly follow corporations and their propaganda, same with government BS we hear day in and day out.

The L party is made up of many, many people from all walks of life, and they disagree constantly on what levels of intervention are best. It's a great thing, this discourse.  If thats your idea of nutter, then call me Nutella, and spread me all over your delicious body.


Go on...
 
2013-03-03 09:58:26 PM

kriegfusion: Bunch of nutters huh. Really? I consider myself closer to being Libertarian than any of those other yahoo parties (and even I acknowledge the many different types of people in those parties of course) and I am probably closer to the big government side of things on certain situations. I think universal healthcare and education should be seriously looked at. I grew up a total diehard Rush Limbaugh supporter (as much as a youth can support something they dont fully understand) and believed his whole bullshiat about government doing no good and business has the answer to everything.  I now see , such as this example in china, unfettered government negligence on an issue  can directly lead to the deaths of people.

I firmly believe the old maxim of "that government is best which governs least", but I do think however distasteful government is, we need some. I  no longer blindly follow corporations and their propaganda, same with government BS we hear day in and day out.

The L party is made up of many, many people from all walks of life, and they disagree constantly on what levels of intervention are best. It's a great thing, this discourse.  If thats your idea of nutter, then call me Nutella, and spread me all over your delicious body.


So...Your a Libertarian but disagree with 99% of the platform...

make sense you where a Rush supporter
 
2013-03-03 10:10:02 PM
Time to get this thread back on the proper track.

China pollution blaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
No it's a utopia of air that smells like pixie farts blaaaaaaaaaahhhrh

You guys need your ADD meds.
 
2013-03-03 10:13:37 PM

WordsnCollision: Key to living in Beijing: get the highest apartment possible.

[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x471]
[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x463]
[livedoor.4.blogimg.jp image 700x446]


Surreal.
 
2013-03-03 10:17:15 PM

MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards


So, you're saying Beijing's air is fine?

SOMEONE's  been eating propaganda, that's certain.

Not even the Chinese government believes you:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-20/china-to-impose-limits-on-s ix -industries-to-tackle-air-pollution.html
 
2013-03-03 10:19:14 PM

kriegfusion: They want as little government as possible and still function.


Which the "starve the beast" Republicans take advantage of in order to make sure  Libertarianism as it's understood and practiced in the US is politically allied with them.
 
2013-03-03 10:34:35 PM

kg2095: ciberido: MNguy: kg2095: SpdrJay: As long as China keeps it's air pollution to itself, I say it's their business.

They don't. Some of their air pollution is dust caused by large scale deforestation. At a certain time each year South Korea is subject to Yellow Dust Storms from blown over from China. It's bad enough to cause fatalities in those with preexisting respiratory problems.

Citation needed

And earlier you just used personal experience as your "proof."  I don't know what the hell your problem is, whether you're a troll, or being paid by China to push propaganda, or just a really belligerent crank, but whatever.   Done with you.

That's fine with me. The last thing I want is aggressive, angry people responding to my posts.


So you're admitting to being MNGuy's alt?
 
2013-03-03 11:11:38 PM
This guy does not represent MN.  Most of us are sensible.  Sorry for the conflation.
 
2013-03-03 11:28:58 PM

ThunderPelvis: Lunchlady: WhyteRaven74: Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.

Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.

We tried that, he ignored that link. Photos seem to get the best results.

Being an obstinate ignoramus just comes so easily to some. Apparently living somewhere for 6 months makes you an infallible expert on every single f*cking thing about that place. No need for citations, data, or...you know...facts.


Or just pulling #'s off of google, which really makes you an expert.  Instead of, you know, being there or anything.  PPM is from the American Embassy.  Keep drinking that kool-aid and knowing your 'facts'
 
2013-03-03 11:32:39 PM

LoneDoggie: Time to get this thread back on the proper track.

China pollution blaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
No it's a utopia of air that smells like pixie farts blaaaaaaaaaahhhrh

You guys need your ADD meds.


Look, China is a shiathole, no problem with that.  People who google image search 'China air pollution' are morans.
 
2013-03-03 11:39:53 PM

gibbon1: James F. Campbell: But let's be honest here: is it any less than Americans deserve?

Americans are lucky they don't get what they want more often.


The Constitution is not luck.
 
2013-03-03 11:42:55 PM
I was in Beijing earlier this week and it was terrible. My hotel provided a mask, but I chose not to wear it.  The sandstorm story is BS.
 
2013-03-03 11:48:24 PM

Spaghetti Eatin' Goombah: I was in Beijing earlier this week and it was terrible.


You probably have cancer
 
2013-03-03 11:51:36 PM

flypusher713: I've lived in the greater Houston metro region for over 25 years, and I've seen some smog.  I've seen plenty of ozone alerts.  But I've NEVER, let me repeat NEVER, seen smog like I'm seeing in these pictures of China, or what I saw on TV watching the 2008 Olympics.


I grew up NW of LA, in Simi Valley from 1964-79 - when Simi was nothing.  You had to go to the San Fernando Valley to get anything.  Goint thru the Santa Susanna pass you were greeted by the SF Valley laying under a brownish-pink blanket.  Once down in the blanket visibility was 2-3 miles, rarely worse - certainly NOTHING like the pix of China now.

Even as a boy of 8 I knew better than to go swimming during a smog alert (your lungs feel like they are on fire), I shudder to think what that toxic brume is doing to people there.
 
2013-03-03 11:57:24 PM
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9ci2_4TQRNTBBSa J3SIe60Uu6vKmuxUgjeB0q3Yd1r4hoC7JM" style="margin-top: 0px;" id="irc_mi" height="617" width="396">
 
2013-03-04 12:04:50 AM

MNguy: ThunderPelvis: Lunchlady: WhyteRaven74: Lunchlady: Literally that is all you have to do and you'll have proved your point.

Or look up actual air quality measurements, like the ppm number. And that is something that's not hard to look up. Just need to find a two week period where LA or wherever was over 240 ppm the whole time and got to 300 at some point and you could argue that it's as bad as China.

We tried that, he ignored that link. Photos seem to get the best results.

Being an obstinate ignoramus just comes so easily to some. Apparently living somewhere for 6 months makes you an infallible expert on every single f*cking thing about that place. No need for citations, data, or...you know...facts.

Or just pulling #'s off of google, which really makes you an expert.  Instead of, you know, being there or anything.  PPM is from the American Embassy.  Keep drinking that kool-aid and knowing your 'facts'


You are quite possibly the dumbest person I have ever seen on Fark, which is saying quite a bit, but one of the most successful trolls as well.  Bravo, sir, bravo.
 
2013-03-04 12:17:13 AM
It's like an idiot zoo in here.
 
2013-03-04 12:20:28 AM
Beijing is the worst place on the planet.  I've never been there but I've seen pictures
 
2013-03-04 12:38:40 AM

MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards


LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.
 
2013-03-04 12:43:51 AM
"We used to complain that we could no longer see the stars at night.  Now we can't see the sun!" -- some Chinese comedian
 
2013-03-04 12:52:13 AM

valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.


Tell me about your time in Beijing.
 
2013-03-04 01:24:05 AM
Don't take long to fins new entries for the ole ignore list.

So long asshole who claims to have lived in China when he probably hasn't managed to unglue himself from the couch in mom's basement yet.
 
2013-03-04 01:35:06 AM
I love when people who have obviously never been to China make broad statements about it.
Beijing pollution fluctuates with the seasons, burning of coal, and dust storms. Sure, the tier 1 cities get polluted, but where I live in Guangdong has ~100 million people living in an area half the size of Colorado, so it's expected.
 
2013-03-04 01:54:26 AM

Zafler: Dude, the Libertarian party specifically has a stance saying that the free market will control the usage of natural resources so that they won't be misused.  China is a pretty good example of unfettered usage of natural resources, and they're polluting themselves.

They also claim education and health care is best addressed through the free market also.  Something that has repeatedly been shown to increase the stratification of the population where it is used.  The U.S. is a decent example, despite the mild regulation, of how free market style health care f*cks people without the money to pay for it.

I don't know who the hell you are, but you don't know what the party you claim to be part of, or similar in beliefs to, actual purports to accomplish.


I'd like to see citations for it. And even if it is so, whoever they are doesn't represent all Libertarians, perhaps just a section of it.  As i stated, there are many flavors of it.  China is not a good example resource use for your example, because they have an oligarchical government that is barely accountable to the people.  If that shiat they were doing was done here in the states, the people would not stand for it.  The free market is a good and first place to go for answers (within this labor for money economy we have; theres a better way, but thats another argument), but not the end all be all.   I am very interested, as i stated already, that even as a Libertarian I would be interested in hearing about government managed healthcare or some alternative, because what we have sucks.

Let me state this again, maybe you'll get it this time: Private companies can be just as dangerous as government entities, I have no doubt of these and need no lecture on it.  \

I know the Libertarian party well enough. There are many viewpoints on many issues. It's not cut and dry.
 
2013-03-04 02:02:15 AM

thenumber5: kriegfusion: Bunch of nutters huh. Really? I consider myself closer to being Libertarian than any of those other yahoo parties (and even I acknowledge the many different types of people in those parties of course) and I am probably closer to the big government side of things on certain situations. I think universal healthcare and education should be seriously looked at. I grew up a total diehard Rush Limbaugh supporter (as much as a youth can support something they dont fully understand) and believed his whole bullshiat about government doing no good and business has the answer to everything.  I now see , such as this example in china, unfettered government negligence on an issue  can directly lead to the deaths of people.

I firmly believe the old maxim of "that government is best which governs least", but I do think however distasteful government is, we need some. I  no longer blindly follow corporations and their propaganda, same with government BS we hear day in and day out.

The L party is made up of many, many people from all walks of life, and they disagree constantly on what levels of intervention are best. It's a great thing, this discourse.  If thats your idea of nutter, then call me Nutella, and spread me all over your delicious body.

So...Your a Libertarian but disagree with 99% of the platform...

make sense you where a Rush supporter


99%? stop being obtuse. You may speak when you aren't acting like a 2 year old. Now shoo.
 
2013-03-04 02:04:14 AM

quatchi: kriegfusion: They want as little government as possible and still function.

Which the "starve the beast" Republicans take advantage of in order to make sure  Libertarianism as it's understood and practiced in the US is politically allied with them.


Not quite sure what you mean by this, nor the quotation. Sorry.
 
2013-03-04 02:24:37 AM

kriegfusion: quatchi: kriegfusion: They want as little government as possible and still function.

Which the "starve the beast" Republicans take advantage of in order to make sure  Libertarianism as it's understood and practiced in the US is politically allied with them.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, nor the quotation. Sorry.


"Starve the beast" is a quote attributed to a Reagan staffer back in the day.

Krugman explains it better than I could...

"Rather than proposing unpopular spending cuts, Republicans would push through popular tax cuts, with the deliberate intention of worsening the government's fiscal position. Spending cuts could then be sold as a necessity rather than a choice, the only way to eliminate an unsustainable budget deficit." He wrote that the "...beast is starving, as planned..." and that "Republicans insist that the deficit must be eliminated, but they're not willing either to raise taxes or to support cuts in any major government programs. And they're not willing to participate in serious bipartisan discussions, either, because that might force them to explain their plan-and there isn't any plan, except to regain power."

The Libertarian "government is best which governs least" philosophy plays into that so neatly it assures that Libertarians (in the US at least) will never be looked at as anything other than useful dupes for the GOP and that they will never be viewed as a legitimate independent party in their own right, just the Republican's loopy kid brother.
 
2013-03-04 02:51:21 AM
The quote you linked sounds pretty shiatty to me, and typical politics as usual. thank you for the explanation about it.

The greater issue with that is Libertarians shouldn't be voting for the GOP at all.  My idea of Libertarianism, and others i've talked to share the view in some ways (southern california) is basically little government in most areas, but health care coverage, some kind of education thought that is up for debate, and scientific funding (since corporations can't see past the next quarterly and have little interest in something that doesn't have a good ROI quickly or plainly).  Various small other things, but thats the gist of it.

I've mostly given up on politics as any real mechanism for change personally, and actually am interested in redesigning society as a whole, ala the whole zeitgeist thing ive been reading about. But within our current political framework, Libertarianism seems the best to me. Maybe we need a new independent party. I'm up for anything that works, and wear no colors.  I dont even say the pledge of allegiance (edgy right! Look out we got a badass over here! lol) since I profess allegiance to no flag or person. Simply an idea; to cause as little harm as possible to others, and make the world a better place.

/steps off soapbox
 
2013-03-04 04:10:23 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!

Classic.
When you take 9th grade world history you may learn something about china.


winnar!!
 
2013-03-04 08:26:24 AM

MNguy: valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.

Tell me about your time in Beijing.


Are you "working" right now MN? Because your playbook seems to lifted from Chinese payed shills on Chinese social media sites. You may have noticed that doesn't work so well here.
 
2013-03-04 08:52:42 AM

MNguy: valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.

Tell me about your time in Beijing.


I think I may have figured it out...whatever MNguy was doing in China was probably the best thing to happen in his life and he was probably regarded a whole lot better there than he was everywhere else he had been. So now he needs to try and relive his glory years by denigrating anyone who has not been there.
 
2013-03-04 09:08:14 AM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.

Tell me about your time in Beijing.

I think I may have figured it out...whatever MNguy was doing in China was probably the best thing to happen in his life and he was probably regarded a whole lot better there than he was everywhere else he had been. So now he needs to try and relive his glory years by denigrating anyone who has not been there.


Good call.  I just try not to judge places by GIS, but whatever floats your boat.

/My glory years were in Thailand.
 
2013-03-04 09:19:26 AM

MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.

Tell me about your time in Beijing.

I think I may have figured it out...whatever MNguy was doing in China was probably the best thing to happen in his life and he was probably regarded a whole lot better there than he was everywhere else he had been. So now he needs to try and relive his glory years by denigrating anyone who has not been there.

Good call.  I just try not to judge places by GIS, but whatever floats your boat.

/My glory years were in Thailand.


you are continually moving the goalposts.....now it is GIS that bothers you?  what about others here with at least as much experience in beijing as you and more recent?  What about links provided that show comparative air quality?

I really do not understand your angst....sure most on here are making assumptions based on available data (or conjecture)...if no one did that I am guessing Fark would be out of business.  But those people are right about this issue....you tried to refute that and were proven wrong eventually conceding that so what is it???
 
2013-03-04 09:43:38 AM

johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.

Tell me about your time in Beijing.

I think I may have figured it out...whatever MNguy was doing in China was probably the best thing to happen in his life and he was probably regarded a whole lot better there than he was everywhere else he had been. So now he needs to try and relive his glory years by denigrating anyone who has not been there.

Good call.  I just try not to judge places by GIS, but whatever floats your boat.

/My glory years were in Thailand.

you are continually moving the goalposts.....now it is GIS that bothers you?  what about others here with at least as much experience in beijing as you and more recent?  What about links provided that show comparative air quality?

I really do not understand your angst....sure most on here are making assumptions based on available data (or conjecture)...if no one did that I am guessing Fark would be out of business.  But those people are right about this issue....you tried to refute that and were proven wrong eventually conceding that so what is it???


I'm only saying that if you haven't been to Beijing, you can't make statements about the air quality there
 
2013-03-04 09:47:34 AM

kriegfusion: My idea of Libertarianism, and others i've talked to share the view in some ways (southern california) is basically little government in most areas, but health care coverage, some kind of education thought that is up for debate, and scientific funding (since corporations can't see past the next quarterly and have little interest in something that doesn't have a good ROI quickly or plainly). Various small other things, but thats the gist of it.


And this is what people don't understand.  They get all frothy and spout nonsense about anarchy, "so vote Republican", derp, etc.  Libertarianism isn't about anarchy.  On the economic side, it's about not letting the government step in the way of self-determination.  Things like protecting the environment, government run health care, etc aren't contrary to that, but the economic philosophy requires that there is reasoning applied to balance the cost on people(like not ratifying Kyoto).  Fascist corporatism isn't libertarian philosophy, it's the philosophy of the Democratic and Republican parties
 
2013-03-04 12:51:23 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: ajgeek: But cheap goods! CAPITALISM! Where will all those poor repressed stockholders go if we implement "standards!?"

Funny!
You think china is a capitalist country!!

Classic.
When you take 9th grade world history you may learn something about china.


I think you may have missed the point.
 
2013-03-04 12:58:42 PM

ByOwlLight: I like how they're going to put all of that money towards stopping the sandstorms, but not the pollution.


Lol.  Giant weather controlling machines on the way!  Problem solved!
 
2013-03-04 01:50:21 PM
Came here for pics of Asian chicks wearing pollution masks, leaving disappointed...
 
2013-03-04 02:38:34 PM

WordsnCollision: Shanghai has an interesting English-language online AQI monitoring page with a real-time webcam and a cute way to display the air pollution level:


Did they have to make the character cry?  Now I'm tearing up.
 
2013-03-04 02:50:20 PM
Shanghai's was just as bad.

Stay longer than a few weeks in China and you're sure to be coughing up flecks of blood.
 
2013-03-04 04:00:10 PM

MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: johnny_vegas: MNguy: valar_morghulis: MNguy: Nobody?  A bunch of propagandist eating retards

LOL, boy you're dumb. But it sure is cute when you try out those big words.

Tell me about your time in Beijing.

I think I may have figured it out...whatever MNguy was doing in China was probably the best thing to happen in his life and he was probably regarded a whole lot better there than he was everywhere else he had been. So now he needs to try and relive his glory years by denigrating anyone who has not been there.

Good call.  I just try not to judge places by GIS, but whatever floats your boat.

/My glory years were in Thailand.

you are continually moving the goalposts.....now it is GIS that bothers you?  what about others here with at least as much experience in beijing as you and more recent?  What about links provided that show comparative air quality?

I really do not understand your angst....sure most on here are making assumptions based on available data (or conjecture)...if no one did that I am guessing Fark would be out of business.  But those people are right about this issue....you tried to refute that and were proven wrong eventually conceding that so what is it???

I'm only saying that if you haven't been to Beijing, you can't make statements about the air quality there


There have been literally dozens of people in this thread (including me) who have been to Beijing and you've dismissed every one of them for one reason or another. You are the only person who's been to Beijing that seems to think it's as bad as LA or Houston, which you haven't been to so by your reasoning you shouldn't even be able to say anything.
 
2013-03-04 04:09:33 PM

Kygz: /not been to LA


I'm in LA right now.  Sky is blue, normally - with a slight tinge of white-brown in the distance, but I can see for quite a ways.  In fact, what blocks the view isn't the air, but buildings (or sometimes, the mountains - which I can see from many miles away normally).  Today it looks like it wants to rain, it's a bit overcast, but I can still see things which are quite a ways away despite the humidity and clouds.  I'm in El Segundo, a mile or so south of LAX.

The air in China is blown around a lot by all the high pressure systems in that area.  If MNguy is saying that it only looks bad sometimes - then sometimes it looks bad *despite* the air being constantly recycled.  That pollution didn't just go away though - it just moved.  So...
 
2013-03-04 04:13:40 PM

MNguy: I'm only saying that if you haven't been to Beijing, you can't make statements about the air quality there


I don't personally own air quality measuring equipment.  I thus have to rely upon the results of the scientists who study that shiat.  I also don't have to fix my own bones if they break, come up with my own flu shots, build my own cars, etc.  This is the year 2013 - we let people specialize these days.  Gone are the days where we live in huts, making our own butter, flour, fences, roof, blah etc.  Now, we have the butter maker make the butter, the fence maker make the fence, and the climatologists study the weather.  Welcome to this...or rather, the previous...millenium.
 
2013-03-04 05:20:11 PM
Lunchlady:

There have been literally dozens of people in this thread (including me) who have been to Beijing and you've dismissed every one of them for one reason or another. You are the only person who's been to Beijing that seems to think it's as bad as LA or Houston, which you haven't been to so by your reasoning you shouldn't even be able to say anything.

I've been to both LA and Houston
 
2013-03-04 06:09:46 PM

MNguy: Lunchlady:

There have been literally dozens of people in this thread (including me) who have been to Beijing and you've dismissed every one of them for one reason or another. You are the only person who's been to Beijing that seems to think it's as bad as LA or Houston, which you haven't been to so by your reasoning you shouldn't even be able to say anything.

I've been to both LA and Houston


Ah, but you haven't lived in both so by your own rules you are not allowed to comment because you don't know what you're talking about.

You are literally the only person in the whole entire world outside of China that thinks either of those cities are on par with Beijing when it comes to pollution.
 
2013-03-05 12:11:10 AM

IamAwake: MNguy: I'm only saying that if you haven't been to Beijing, you can't make statements about the air quality there

I don't personally own air quality measuring equipment.  I thus have to rely upon the results of the scientists who study that shiat.  I also don't have to fix my own bones if they break, come up with my own flu shots, build my own cars, etc.  This is the year 2013 - we let people specialize these days.  Gone are the days where we live in huts, making our own butter, flour, fences, roof, blah etc.  Now, we have the butter maker make the butter, the fence maker make the fence, and the climatologists study the weather.  Welcome to this...or rather, the previous...millenium.


I thought that said feces.....hoped the thread was taking an interesting turn
 
Displayed 244 of 244 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report