The entire country is a murder-free zone, but they keep happening.

Clearly, we shouldn't bother to have laws against murder.

tylerdurden217: Keep worshiping the second amendment... How's that working out for you?

The second amendment is working pretty well here, as is my education from Massachusetts. It taught me how to think critically.

For example: All mass shootings in United States history (outside of war, of course) have occurred in gun-free zones. Yes, even Fort Hood!

Wise_Guy: ghare: Publikwerks: bmihura: tylerdurden217: Keep worshiping the second amendment... How's that working out for you?

The second amendment is working pretty well here, as is my education from Massachusetts. It taught me how to think critically.

For example: All mass shootings in United States history (outside of war, of course) have occurred in gun-free zones. Yes, even Fort Hood!

The movie theater shootings didn't. Nor did the LA shootout with the bank robbers with assault weapons.

Supermarket parking lot where Gabby Giffords was shot. And of course, some mass shootings like Columbine occurred in places where there were armed guards.

Critical thinking is hard when your facts are wrong, see.

As has already been pointed out, the theater that the Aurora shooter chose prohibited guns.  In the case of Columbine, that happened there simply because the kids went to school there.  I don't think gun-free or not gun-free was a factor.

A mass shooting happened where there were armed guards. Obviously everyone should have been armed.

But whatever, I know, I know, gun worshippers will have their way, Americans will sacrifice children for the right to protect ourselves from zombie king george III, and reasonable restrictions on firearms means the end of the Republic (zombie king george again i guess).

tylerdurden217: mikemoto: Wait, that's not possible. The Democrats control 87% of the state legislature in Massachusetts. It should be the greatest state in the history of the union for that reason.

It's education system is pretty good... And by pretty good I mean it's the best in the country.

Keep worshiping the second amendment... How's that working out for you?

When two guys tried to kick my door in and rob me at about 1 am several years ago it worked out pretty well. Showing the gun was a sufficient deterrent and I didn't have to shoot anyone or get killed myself. How would you fare?

kmmontandon: The entire country is a murder-free zone, but they keep happening.

Clearly, we shouldn't bother to have laws against murder.

So you mean laws are already in place to PROHIBIT all violence gun or not, and they don't work?

Clearly we need to make up another law, stat! one more ought to do it, then the criminals will all go "OHH, I GET IT! Crime is bad!" and stop being criminals...

Laws do not prohibit crime, they exist so that the state can punish individuals who break our social codes, and legally call it justice.

Self defense exists to prohibit crime. Its the way you keep a crime from happening in the first place.

MikeSass: Illegally possessed a gun, but never used it.  Still killed 168 people, including 19 kids under the age of 6.
Number of people clamoring to ban fertilizer and diesel fuel from school grounds (or anywhere else):  0

Tell me again how guns are the problem so I can laugh harder.

What I would really like to do is to put those whiny parents from Newtown that Obama pimped to the country the other day in a room with the parents of the kids who died in Oklahoma City and see if the Newtown parents can convince the OKC parents that gun laws will save lives.

Try buying a large quantity of ammonium nitrite (something that was considered completely innocuous before McVeigh) without a license and see who comes knocking on your door.
So yeah, regulations change after atrocities. Unless it involves guns. Because of pants wetting putzes like you.
This is why the TSA has to dump nail clippers and Purell bottles by the dumptruck load. Also because of pants wetting putzes like you seeing bad guys behind every bush.

New Year's Eve 1972 to 7 January 1973 - Mark James Robert Essex killed 9 (including 5 police officers) and wounded 13 more (including 5 more officers), starting his spree by attacking a New Orleans Police Department jail facility.

So we have several mass (4 or more at once) and/or spree (2 or more in 2 or more locations) shootings that turned out to be a lot more than I expected. Mass shootings in the homes were often in homes where gun ownership was known. 

Plenty of mass and/or spree shootings occur in non-gun-free zones. Don't be fooled into believing that gun-free zones are the primary targets of the shooters. This does not seem to be the case. More often than not, the location of the shooting, gun-free or not, is where the shooter has had problems or is a location of a person or people where the shooter has had problems. Most notable exceptions would be robbery-type events where the robber(s) and victim(s) don't necessarily even known one another. Plus, there are some additional truly random events in the sense that the shooter has no association with the victims at all. Obviously, these types of situations can happen to virtually anyone and seemingly in very random places.

1975 - Easter Sunday Massacre - James Urban Ruppert murdered 11 family members in his mother's house at 635 Minor Avenue in Hamilton, Ohio.

1982 - George Emil Banks, a former Camp Hill prison guard, shot 13 people to death in Wilkes-Barre City and Jenkins Township, Pennsylvania, including five of his own children. 

1985 - Springfield Mall, PA, Sylvia Seegrist killed 3, injured 7, was stopped by unarmed mall store employee who thought her gun wasn't real.

1987 - Ronald Gene Simmons, Sr., (July 15, 1940 - June 25, 1990) was a retired United States Air Force master sergeant who killed 16 people over a weeklong period in 1987. Fourteen of the victims were members of his family, including a daughter he had sexually abused and the child he had fathered with her. He also wounded four others, Arkansas.

1993 - Branch Davidians mass murder of numerous members in compound by firearm to prevent flight when building caught on fire. Autopsy records indicate that at least 20 Davidians were shot, including five children under the age of 14.

2000 - Whicita Horror/Massacre, spree perpetrated by brothers Reginald and Jonathan Carr, killing 5 and wounding a 5th over a period several days including committing assault, rape, and robbery.

2004 Chai Soua Vang, a 35-year-old Hmong immigrant and naturalized U.S. citizen, shot eight people while deer hunting east of Birchwood in northern Wisconsin.

2004 - McKinney, Texas, three robbers (Eddie Williams, Javier Cortez, and Raul Cortez) killed a check cashing store employee, her nephew, and his two friends in the home of the employee, Rosa Barbosa.

2005 - Seven people were killed and four wounded when Terry Michael Ratzmann opened fire at a Living Church of God service at the Sheraton Hotel in Brookfield. Ratzmann, a 44-year-old computer technician, then committed suicide (Wisconsin) (hotel not posted).

2005 - Tacoma Mall, Dominick Maldonado injured 6, then kidnapped 4. CCW responded by yelling at Maldonado, but with no gun deployed. The CCW was subsequently shot multiple times.

2005 - Courthouse Square, Tyler, Texas, David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. killing 2 and wounding 4. Mark Wilson responded from his residence above the square and was killed after wounding Arroyo and being credited with saving lives. As this happened outside of the courthouse, Arroyo expected law enforcement and wore a fragmentation vest and ballistic vest.

2006 - The Hamilton Avenue Murders is the colloquial name for the mass murder of seven people in a house at 560 North Hamilton Avenue in Indianapolis, Indiana by James Stewart and Desmond Turner during a murder-robbery.

2007 - Six were killed in Delavan when Ambrosio Analco entered an upper flat and shot his twin infant boys, his estranged wife, her sister and a friend. Analco, 23, then shot and killed himself (Wisconsin).

2007 - a woman and her boyfriend shot dead six members of her family on Christmas Eve in Carnation, Washington. 

2007 - Youth with a Mission Center and New Life Church shootings by Matthew J. Murray (Colorado), killing 2 and injuring 2 at YWAM and later that day killing 3 (including self) and injuring 3 at New Life. Before the suicide, was shot by former police officer and volunteer security for the church). 

2008 - Dallas' LBJ Freeway Shooting Spree happened 3 days before Christmas. Jorge Lopez and William Scott Miller were killed by former Utah highway patrolman Brian Smith. Smith attempted to shoot people in several vehicles, injuring at least two others. He later shot himself and died the next day.

2008 - Skagit County Shooting Spree, Isaac Zamora killed 6 including a deputy and injured two more during a shooting spree near his home and during a high speed chase on I-5.

2008 - Santa Claus (Jeffrey Pardo) opened fire at a party of his exwife and ex-inlaws in Covina, CA, set the house on fire, committed suicide (8+1).

2009 - Lakewood, WA, four cops killed in coffee shop by Maurice Clemmons.

2009 - Pittsburgh, PA 3 cops killed and 2 wounded by Richard Poplawski who ambushed officers arriving on scene for a domestic dispute. Cops fired more than 600 rounds at Poplawski who was wearing a ballistic vest.

2009 - Michael Kenneth McLendon went on a shooting spree spanning 2 counties in southern Alabama, killing 10 other than himself. Along the way, he shot at various people and vehicles and even stories such as Wal-mart and Piggly Wiggly.

2009 - Cathouse Murders where 4 people were shot and killed including 2 pregnant women (making 6 murders), purportedly by Denny Edward Phillips and 3 accomplices, Oklahoma City, OK.

2009 - Six killed in apartment building in Santa Clara, CA.

2009 - Carthage, NC, Robert Stewart killed 8 in nursing home shooting (where his wife worked) and 3 officers were injured as well. 

2009 - Six people, including one student, were shot in a drive-by shooting at a community rally on the campus of Texas Southern University, Houston. (outside areas, streets, etc. not gun-free zones).

2010 - Christopher Speight killed 8 in Virginia home.

2011 - Giffords shooting, Tucson, AZ. Jared Loughner opened fire, killing 6, wounding 13, plus there was 1 additional non-gunfire injury that resulted. CCW person responded to late to be of any use with a gun.

2011 - Mass shooting of family in Wheatland, WY by Everett Conant, killing his 3 sons, brother, and wounding his wife.

2011 - Eduardo Sencion killed 5 (including self), wounded 7 at a Carson City, NV IHOP.

2011 - Copley Community, Ohio, Michael E. Hance, killed 7 in two houses. All were shot in the head.

2011 - Detroit Police Station, Lamar Moore opened fire from in front of the counter, then hopped the counter, shooting 4 officers (none died).

2012 - Binh Thai Luc killed 5 in a home robbery in San Francisco.

2012 - Café Racer, Ian Stawicki killed 4 and wounded the chef before leaving and later attempting to carjack a woman, killing her.

Sure, there are mass/spree shootings in gun-free zones and some have definitely been horrific and of very large scale such as UT and VT school shootings and the media loves these events, but lesser known mass/spree shootings also happen quite a bit too.If you enjoyed reading about "Gun-Free Zone Pseudo Myths" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join

Illegally possessed a gun, but never used it.  Still killed 168 people, including 19 kids under the age of 6.
Number of people clamoring to ban fertilizer and diesel fuel from school grounds (or anywhere else):  0

Tell me again how guns are the problem so I can laugh harder.

What I would really like to do is to put those whiny parents from Newtown that Obama pimped to the country the other day in a room with the parents of the kids who died in Oklahoma City and see if the Newtown parents can convince the OKC parents that gun laws will save lives.

It's a shame that criminals don't follow laws.

FTA: On Wednesday night, a suspect described as a black man in his 20′s, about 5-feet-8 inches to 6-feet-1 inches tall, medium build and wearing a hoodie made his way to the second floor of the Eliot School of Fine and Applied Arts.


"This wouldn't have happened if I had been there to help"

Securitywyrm: It goes like this
Assuming no consequences after the act, would you rather try to rob a bank or a drug dealer?

It depends on if the Drug dealer happened to be in a gun free zone.



/Crime happens where its easiest for people to get away with it.

The gun control debate has devolved into a team based sport, where both sides are more interested in tallying the score rather than giving it any intelligent thought. Bumper stickers are quoted, clips from websites cut and pasted, and each side mocks the other for what they themselves do... and we have the gall to call it a debate.

I swear you farks must be chomping at the bit to hear of the next event that you can use to buttress your side.

This nit-witted trope makes about as much sense as, "A man had his car stolen in Los Angeles. Wait, that's not possible, stealing cars is illegal in Los Angeles."

GUTSU: Stinger: MikeSass:

What I would really like to do is to put those whiny parents from Newtown that Obama pimped to the country the other day in a room with the parents of the kids who died in Oklahoma City and see if the Newtown parents can convince the OKC parents that gun laws will save lives.

What I would really like is to put you in a room with two of my closest friends, whose 6 year old daughter Avielle Richman, their only child, was killed on December 14th at Sandy Hook Elementary, and have you explain why you think they're "whiny" and how Obama is shamelessly "pimping" them.  Incidentally, the parents of kids from OKC, Columbine, Aurora, and other mass killings in the U.S. have been extremely supportive of the Newtown parents.  I guess when you experience arguably the most painful tragedy possible in life you tend to feel a bond of empathy.

Shiat just got real.  I wish I were making this up.  I'm helping get a professionally-designed website together for their non-profit, The Avielle Foundation.

Laws shouldn't be dictated by emotion. Several hundred kids die each year in drunk driving accidents, you don't see people clamoring to ban alcohol.

No, but nobody's suggested that the answer to drunk driving is more liquor.

mikemoto: Wait, that's not possible. The Democrats control 87% of the state legislature in Massachusetts. It should be the greatest state in the history of the union for that reason.

Having a gun control state in the US is kinda like having a non-peeing section of the pool

Stinger: MikeSass:

What I would really like to do is to put those whiny parents from Newtown that Obama pimped to the country the other day in a room with the parents of the kids who died in Oklahoma City and see if the Newtown parents can convince the OKC parents that gun laws will save lives.

What I would really like is to put you in a room with two of my closest friends, whose 6 year old daughter Avielle Richman, their only child, was killed on December 14th at Sandy Hook Elementary, and have you explain why you think they're "whiny" and how Obama is shamelessly "pimping" them.  Incidentally, the parents of kids from OKC, Columbine, Aurora, and other mass killings in the U.S. have been extremely supportive of the Newtown parents.  I guess when you experience arguably the most painful tragedy possible in life you tend to feel a bond of empathy.

Shiat just got real.  I wish I were making this up.  I'm helping get a professionally-designed website together for their non-profit, The Avielle Foundation.

So would you say that you are rather emotional about passing a law?

kmmontandon: The entire country is a murder-free zone, but they keep happening.


Actually, that's not entirely accurate.:

archichris: potterydove: eggrolls: Question: can anyone give an example of an acknowledged non-'gun free' zone that actually served to prevent, heck, even just reduce, the fatalities in mass shooting?

There was a story about a shooting that was stopped in san antonio by a bystander who was armed.  I'm too lazy to look up the actual story.

I wasn't. Based on the details, not sure you can claim this one.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.asp 

And the church security guard who shot the perp before he made it inside,

After he'd killed two people. In a church shelter.

And the MP who stopped the fort hood terrorist.

I'd question calling 13 fatalities a ringing endorsement of your argument how being heavily armed solves the problem.

And pretty much every gun show ever.....because to the best of my knowledge no one ever tried to rob a room full of armed gun dealers.

No, they're too busy shooting themselves. http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/19/us/north-carolina-gun-show-shooting . Again, not the best argument you could use to prove gun fetishists are the exemplars of responsibility they should be.

And there was that gun store in Texas where three guys smashed a truck through the wall, and the owner grabbed an AR-15 and killed a couple of them before the last one ran off. ....

Couldn't find this one. But the fact that you seem to conflate a robbery with a mass shooting (unless you're referring to the store owner as the mass shooter..?) is worrisome to say the least.

To sum up, I'm really not seeing a record of success with armed guards, armed parishioners, armed ANYBODY being any more successful at keeping the body count down.

Again proving my theory of the higher # of links approved = the more farking stupid you are.

Publikwerks: bmihura: tylerdurden217: Keep worshiping the second amendment... How's that working out for you?

The second amendment is working pretty well here, as is my education from Massachusetts. It taught me how to think critically.

For example: All mass shootings in United States history (outside of war, of course) have occurred in gun-free zones. Yes, even Fort Hood!

The movie theater shootings didn't. Nor did the LA shootout with the bank robbers with assault weapons.


The movie theatre was a gun free zone, and the LA shoot out isn't classified as a mass shooting. It was a bank robbery with the use of deadly weapons.Keep trying!

MikeSass:

What I would really like to do is to put those whiny parents from Newtown that Obama pimped to the country the other day in a room with the parents of the kids who died in Oklahoma City and see if the Newtown parents can convince the OKC parents that gun laws will save lives.

What I would really like is to put you in a room with two of my closest friends, whose 6 year old daughter Avielle Richman, their only child, was killed on December 14th at Sandy Hook Elementary, and have you explain why you think they're "whiny" and how Obama is shamelessly "pimping" them.  Incidentally, the parents of kids from OKC, Columbine, Aurora, and other mass killings in the U.S. have been extremely supportive of the Newtown parents.  I guess when you experience arguably the most painful tragedy possible in life you tend to feel a bond of empathy.

Shiat just got real.  I wish I were making this up.  I'm helping get a professionally-designed website together for their non-profit, The Avielle Foundation.

bmihura: For example: All mass shootings in United States history (outside of war, of course) have occurred in gun-free zones. Yes, even Fort Hood!

For a shooting to be declared a mass shooting, it must first be determined that the shooting occurred in a gun-free zone.  Otherwise it's just a shooting.

And Mumbles Menino will still, in his infinite lack of wisdom, assume that a situation like this can only be solved by enacting more laws.

Has there even been a more ignorant and illogical person than an anti-gunner? No, there really hasn't.

MichiganFTL: Publikwerks: The movie theater shootings didn't. Nor did the LA shootout with the bank robbers with assault weapons.

Ummm... Cinemark theater chain has an express 'gun-free zone' policy.

I'm pretty sure banks are a gun-free zone in Cali...

The LA shootout wasn't a mass shooting.

Publikwerks: bmihura: tylerdurden217: Keep worshiping the second amendment... How's that working out for you?

The second amendment is working pretty well here, as is my education from Massachusetts. It taught me how to think critically.

For example: All mass shootings in United States history (outside of war, of course) have occurred in gun-free zones. Yes, even Fort Hood!

The movie theater shootings didn't. Nor did the LA shootout with the bank robbers with assault weapons.

The movie theater shooting in Aurora actually was in a "gun free zone".

Publikwerks: bmihura: tylerdurden217: Keep worshiping the second amendment... How's that working out for you?

The second amendment is working pretty well here, as is my education from Massachusetts. It taught me how to think critically.

For example: All mass shootings in United States history (outside of war, of course) have occurred in gun-free zones. Yes, even Fort Hood!

The movie theater shootings didn't. Nor did the LA shootout with the bank robbers with assault weapons.

Supermarket parking lot where Gabby Giffords was shot. And of course, some mass shootings like Columbine occurred in places where there were armed guards.

Critical thinking is hard when your facts are wrong, see.

kmmontandon: The entire country is a murder-free zone, but they keep happening.

Clearly, we shouldn't bother to have laws against murder.

You do realize the difference between an intimate object and taken action to kill someone.... right?