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(Bloomberg)   After-tax pay drops to lowest level since 1959. That change you voted for? Better check the couch cushions   (bloomberg.com) divider line 70
    More: Fail, U.S., discretionary income, personal incomes, consumer spending, stock-index futures, berg survey, Conference Board, durable goods  
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2260 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Mar 2013 at 10:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-03-02 07:10:19 PM
17 votes:
I voted for the change.

Unfortunately, a lot of very stupid and/or selfish assholes voted for the Party of Obstructionists to positions in Congress, too.
2013-03-02 10:17:17 PM
8 votes:
Yeah, this is totally Obummer's fault, not at all the fault of the party that is constantly not only refusing to implement a rational progressive tax policy but also trying to shift even greater burdens onto the non-rich while cutting taxes for the rich, trying to repeal the minimum wage and block increases, and working to get rid of overtime, among many other wonderful proposals that totally aren't a class war against the middle class when THEY do them.
2013-03-02 08:54:51 PM
8 votes:
freethoughtblogs.com
2013-03-02 11:54:44 PM
7 votes:
I honestly don't understand how anybody can get through High School (where I went, Econ was a required course) without understanding why Trickle-Down Economics is a complete and utter bullshiat sham.

Let's remember, supply and demand.

Corporations are purely profit driven. For better or for worse, that is precisely what they are. They raise wages precisely enough to keep bodies working and they hire ONLY when they need more people doing the job to maintain their business. This is simple supply and demand. When you need a worker, you hire a worker. The CEO being handed a tax break and suddenly having more money doesn't make companies hire workers that they wouldn't otherwise need any more than getting a tax break makes my wife and I buy a third car, despite having nobody to drive it. There is no logical reason that this works and there is fact behind it specifically not working.

What DOES raise hiring? Business. And you know what makes business? People who have disposable income to spend. The rich, unlike the middle class and the poor, don't tend to  have appreciable specific points to spend in which they can improve their quality of life and thus when they get a tax break that goes into the bank and takes precisely no more effort than it would otherwise to manage. If I get a tax break? I spend it on necessities. I get my car's tail light repaired. I go out to eat for special occasions at nicer places. I buy clothes. All of that gets recycled into the economy and into the pockets of the rich who own those businesses. Income does not "trickle down" and it never has. It trickles up.

But facts and logic are much less important to these dolts than whatever their overlords tell them to think, because after all, they're rich and by the standards of your average moron, that means that they are good people because God makes good people wealthy, you see?
m00
2013-03-03 12:33:23 AM
6 votes:

Emposter: Heretic! How dare you criticize the Sacred Job Creators, hallowed be their names? Step back and realize that you strike out only in envy and jealousy. Once you have realized this, you can set forth on the path of salvation, where you will give wealth to the Holy Job Creators, and perhaps, in their infinite compassion, they might allow a miniscule fraction of that wealth might trickle back to you.


Yeah it's not that. Republicans have been sold the idea that all socialism is evil, and the America should be economically fair, and that the super-wealthy earned their money fairly and squarely and therefore ethically entitled to every cent they earned. It is true there are job creators, which are small business owners that built their store up from nothing... unfortunately they get lumped together with Hedge Fund Manager #239 when it comes time for penalties but not when it comes time for benefits.

What conservatives fail to realize is that other than small business owners, the rich are wealthy largely because of socialism -- the system is broken and distributes wealth to them in the form of tax policy, tax loopholes, monetary policy, capital gains, and corporate protectionism. Too Big to Fail is exactly the kind of "steal from person A to give to person B" style socialism that conservatives rail against, except in this case person B already has hundreds of millions of dollar. Or the fact that our military is deployed to protect corporate interests and trade agreements, and protect companies that outsource, but it's American workers that pay for it. The wealthy don't even pay for it because they are in the 0%-15% tax bracket.
2013-03-03 03:36:51 AM
5 votes:
Oh, since nobody's pointed this out yet:

i50.tinypic.com
2013-03-03 01:16:33 AM
4 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Notabunny: Emposter: whidbey: FAIL tag is for submitter, who would rather blame government because it needs to collect revenues instead of recognizing that huge corporations have been farking the American worker for decades now with deflated wages in spite of huge profit margins.

Heretic!  How dare you criticize the Sacred Job Creators, hallowed be their names?  Step back and realize that you strike out only in envy and jealousy.  Once you have realized this, you can set forth on the path of salvation, where you will give wealth to the Holy Job Creators, and perhaps, in their infinite compassion, they might allow a miniscule fraction of that wealth might trickle back to you.

[img.photobucket.com image 680x360]

productivity increase starting in the early 80s?

wow!  if there were only some machines and things that companies started to spend a lot of money on back then to increase productivity.


What's your point?

The use of machines excuses corporate greed and increasing wealth disparity?
m00
2013-03-03 12:34:48 AM
4 votes:
And this is never going to get solved as long as the left and the right are fighting each other, rather than fighting the unholy union between government and big business. But of course, government and big business know this and provoke the right against the left, and vice versa.
2013-03-02 10:55:15 PM
4 votes:
home.comcast.net

So vote Republican.
2013-03-02 10:20:03 PM
4 votes:

Mrbogey: A Dark Evil Omen: Capitalism in action.

What country would you describe as being the least capitalist? I want to know what you consider the measure of success.


Nearly any of the Scandinavian ones.  Successful use of capitalist principles to produce profit, but profit is more equally shared.

The US is designed to help Romney, Buffett and Gates add another $100,000,000 to the pile.  It is not designed to give a single parent direct access to healthcare for their children.  Interestingly, Buffett and Gates have a problem with this.
2013-03-02 08:46:23 PM
4 votes:
You can't change CEOs not paying their workers better wages
2013-03-03 01:31:41 AM
3 votes:

whidbey: John Henry Eden: [xtupload.com image 660x437]

30 years of proof positive that trickle down economics has been a complete failure, and this picture sums it all up.

Well, if you think about it,  what incentive does the 1% have to share its bounty with the masses who got them to the top in the first place?

Nothing legally compelling them.

And I guess they feel that throwing a bone to the rabble works every now and then to at least keep our society appearing to look brim with commerce.



1.bp.blogspot.com

3.bp.blogspot.com

And when Bastille Day II comes and the 1%'s assets are seized and they are the first up against the wall, they shouldn't act too surprised about it.
2013-03-02 11:55:59 PM
3 votes:

walkingtall: So you don't think it has anything to do with CEO's hoarding most of the profits while giving their employees crap for wages? You just think there are too many workers?

CEOS are smart people. They know that for every worker there are 2 maybe 3 right behind them waiting for the job. You make up a set of skills in any area you want. Make the list 50 items long. Give me a couple weeks Ill have 25 people that can do it. That is why the rich have taken all the efficiency gains for the past 30 years. Because they can. And there is nothing govt can do about it. If some of you fark progressives have an answer I would love to hear it. Taxes arent it.


I'm pretty sure the answer is to eliminate the credit and welfare that artificially support the lower and middle classes, which is how the rich have managed to accumulate virtually all the wealth without eliminating the consumer base which supports the economy the rich prosper in.  Today's lower and shrinking middle classes buy things with debt/subsidies, because they don't have wealth to spend.  Remove that ability, and everything should correct itself.

Of course, this has gone on long enough that, were that to happen, there would be a massive recession.  Moreover, because we've waited until after all the wealth has been drained from the lower/middle class to implement this policy, huge portions of the populace would suddenly be unable to support themselves.  As a result, the correction would probably take the same form it did in France during the late 1700's.  At this point, I'm not 100% sure that would be a bad thing.
2013-03-02 10:42:38 PM
3 votes:

shotglasss: cretinbob: [freethoughtblogs.com image 500x607]

That stat has been thoroughly discredited. Thanks for playing though.


You are correct. American CEOs make 380 times more than the average worker, not 475. And I can provide a citation, unlike some people.
2013-03-02 10:39:55 PM
3 votes:
the war on American workers has been ongoing in earnest since Reagan took office.
2013-03-02 09:28:18 PM
3 votes:
Obama doesn't set salaries in private businesses, nitwit.
2013-03-02 06:59:33 PM
3 votes:
I really pity those that can't read/understand economic reports.
2013-03-03 06:12:12 AM
2 votes:
I did a thesis on wage stagnation in the early 90's.  I really have no sympathy for American workers as they've let themselves get repeatedly raped.  It's been obvious for 30 years, at least, that they will bend over and get shafted by their corporate masters with no complaint.  In fact, they will deride anyone who points out they're getting shafted.

When I see corporate charters getting revoked and national strikes, I will start feeling sympathetic toward American workers.  Until then they are getting exactly what they deserve.
2013-03-03 02:35:04 AM
2 votes:
ITT - Results of successful divide and conquer and misdirection campaigns

This has all happened before and will happen again, in one way or another. Maybe. It would suck if we ended up stuck in a 1984 type situation where the powers that be are so entrenched as to be immutable in perpetuity.

The thing is the founders worked really hard and spent a lot of time pondering how to make it so that this sort of corruption from within could be prevented, and failing that could still manage to be fixed without violence or a complete collapse of civilization. But it seems that any honest system is able to be (and perhaps is all but guaranteed to be) subverted on a long enough time line. The sad thing is the country is still quite young, relatively, and yet...
m00
2013-03-03 02:30:33 AM
2 votes:

whidbey: I disagree. Again, we are not seeing any substantial break in the apathy. Progressivism is not seeing anywhere near the level of support. Even Obama's moderate policies are seen as insane extremism.


Obama is part of the same corrupt system. Voter apathy exists because nobody at the top benefits from engaged voters. All the outlets that traditionally engaged voters, are now drowning them with useless factoids. Oh look, a Republican took a drink during a speech. Lets play that clip 13 times in 24 hours (seriously).

Yeah well, Obama implemented Mitt Romney's healthcare system, which is a payout to insurance providers. If Obama was actually progressive, we'd have a system like Canada, or Norway, or Germany. So how fantastic is this... Obama implements the Republican plan, and we've wasted 2 years with liberals defending it to their dying breath and conservatives claiming it will be the end of society. Meanwhile, pay no attention to those drones overhead.

whidbey: If they do, they don't care, or are intentionally blind to the real problems. But that's splitting hairs.


Oh, they know. They just don't care. When you are a billionaire, or even a hundred-millionaire, you are going to survive whatever catastrophe you inflict on others. In fact, things might even improve for you personally, because you control the resources and they'll be even more scarce. Just look at the GM crop stuff. We've farked up the environment and ecosystem to the point where we're going to need GM crops just to filter out the chemicals in the soil. Guess who owns the intellectual property rights to GM seeds? It's like having a monopoly on raincoats, and being able to make it rain at will. This is what the elites are doing -- and it's not right v left. That is an artificial division created so that people are distracted while this goes on.

whidbey: It's not hard to prove. Progressive-leaning Democrats find it an uphill battle because public support is not strongly organized, and social conservatives still believe in using fossil fuel for practical uses and for the commerce it brings.

You're still refusing to acknowledge that the real issue is public apathy. Not what Congress is/isn't doing.


I don't want to get into a global climate change debate, because I'm not convinced of "man made global climate change." But I do agree we need to stop destroying our ecosystem, which means get off coal and oil and pursue sustainable energy, and sustainable farming and fishing while we're at it.

So think about that. I don't fully believe in global climate change, but I think we should be investing in sustainable energy. We should be driving electric cars. We need to stop mining coal and drilling oil. Other than climate change, there are at least 3 or 4 solid reasons we need to do this. So if the goal is to do these things, why is the public debate 100% focused on the climate change issue? As I said, think about that. It would be easier to convince conservative voters to implement exactly the same policy one would want to combat climate change if you dropped climate change from the debate. Just think about that one.

Oh, and I completely do acknowledge public apathy.

But I think mass media has created an apathetic public by making all news essentially entertainment, and not even good entertainment. And people are bombarded with "omg X politician from the other side is elected, the world is going end." It's like, I heard Republicans and Democrats say this (2012) is the most important election in our lifetimes! Really? It's always the most important election. It's ALWAYS the end of the world. The economy is ALWAYS doomed... because the other side is crazy, you can't reason with them!! It gets tiring, people tune it out. They get on message boards and hear people parrot talking points. Get talked down to. That's why they're apathetic.

It's like, when I debate a liberal they argue with me as if I were spouting conservative talking points. When I debate a conservative they argue with me as if I were spouting liberal talking points. That's what people have been trained to do. That's what is creating apathy. I close the browser, and say "fark this shiat."

whidbey: It's not insane. They want to privatize Medicare and eliminate other social safety nets. The abortion "question" keeps coming up, as does talk of repealing the Civil Rights Act.


Who is "they"? Republican politicians? Voters? Media pundits? There are some real unsolved issues, but unfortunately they never get debated. Just to pick abortion... I used to be pro-choice, but I moved to a (somewhat) pro-life position after really thinking about it over a number of years (no, I'm not religious). I kinda think there is no right answer, because there some seriously hard bioethics questions that I think should be discussed in the public forum, and sadly it's not. It's all slogans and strawman. Once we start actually being able to clone humans and human organs and making designer babies by gene selection (and that's coming in the next 20 years), these hard ethical questions about "what is a person" will really start to matter. But that's a whole different ball of wax.

whidbey: You make some good points, but I suspect you're not going to budge from the "both sides are the same/do it/are bad" false equivalence I've frankly become tired of refuting.


Well, I don't self identify as either so it makes it easy for me because I'm not emotionally invested in either side. But I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying "they're just as bad"... I'm saying at the top -- amongst the genuine ruling class -- there is no right and there is no left. There is just them, and us. Right and left are collections of arbitrary positions that were invented to create a distraction (and yes apathy) amongst the voting class. It's not real.

I'm not sure they hold any values, other than amassing power for its own sake. But this is every warlord and conquered throughout history, right?

Do you want me to say that Republicans are more "evil"? Sure.

But what I'm also saying is that it's a game of good cop/bad cop and they're both on the same side -- the side that is opposed to both you and me. It so happens that Republicans are the bad cop. But this doesn't make the good cop "good." Any more than in the interrogation room at the police station, that the good cop is your friend. He has the exact same job as the bad cop, and the exact same goals. See what I'm saying?
m00
2013-03-03 01:33:04 AM
2 votes:

whidbey: And while I would also agree that both parties are heavily influenced by big business if not outright controlled, the Democratic Party is the only hope we have of changing the paradigm. The biggest reason why their policies are watered down is not because of business lobbying, but because the people who voted them in by and large do not take responsibility past checking "Yes" at the ballot box.


Well, there were recent movements that tried to change both parties -- OWS tried to change the Democratic party, and the Tea Party tried to change the Republican party. They actually wanted the same thing. Yep. In the beginning of the Tea Party movement Sarah Palin's big speech was railing against "Corporate Crony Capitalism." AKA, government colluding with big business to screw over everybody but the elites. This is exactly what OWS also wanted to stop. The media had to work pretty hard to keep both movements at each others' throats -- FOX making OWS look like unwashed hippie hooligans, and NBC (owned by GE, think about that) making the Tea Party look like crazed gun nuts. This gave the parties enough time to squash the movements. Tea Party was taken over by the establishment, and OWS was marginalized.

I don't think we can change either party at this point. Big business controls each, and controls the media.

Also, I seriously doubt the Democratic party wants Republicans to disappear. Who else would they blame when money kept being funneled to the .01%?

whidbey: That might be true, but the "conservative elite" doesn't even believe in man-made climate change. Or that we should even have a progressive tax system. I don't understand the need to force these kinds of comparisons


I guarantee you that the conservative elite believes in man-made impact to their environment (lets leave out "climate change" here). This is another example of using mass media to obscure the problem to maintain the status quo. The problem is that resource extraction is messy and damaging to the environment. Whether you want to call it "climate change" or "we can't breathe the air or drink the water and our food supply is also poison" is immaterial. But the focus is on this thing called climate change, which is harder to prove. Why? Because as long as there is a "debate" the status quo can be maintained by the conservative elite, while the liberal elite can appear to be "doing something" (all the while benefiting from the same resource extraction). But if Democrats really wanted to put an end to this, they'd drop the climate change and just say "yeah... extracting resources makes people sick. Oil spills make people sick. Fracking makes people sick. Pollution makes people sick. Chemical runoff from factories contaminate ground water. Rich people make money by killing you." But then there would be no debate, because you can't argue that.  Instead it's all about climate change, because it's a debate neither side can win. The media is part of the scam, they set topics and talking points that voters of both side troll either with.

I really can't talk to voters of either side at this point. You know... Republican voters actually believe that people voted for Obama because they "want free stuff" and that 47% of the country are "takers." It's insane. But it's no more insane than Democrat voters who think Republicans votes the way Jesus wants, and that Republican voters don't care about the sick or poor, and have some sort of irrational gun fetish, and want to go back to some idealized 1950s lifestyle.  These are all beliefs that stem from the media propaganda machines. Meanwhile, GE isn't paying income tax and Wall Street is stealing your money to give themselves bigger bonuses, and they use the savings to fund political campaigns to preserve their good fortune. The deck is stacked against us serfs.
2013-03-03 01:07:13 AM
2 votes:
xtupload.com

30 years of proof positive that trickle down economics has been a complete failure, and this picture sums it all up.

Anyone who continues to advocate the scam that is voodoo/supply side/trickle down economics is either a) a liar, or b) incompetent regarding economics.

Anytime you hear someone advocate this scam in the future feel free to challenge them with this.  Give them the benefit of the doubt, I'm happy to just call them totally incompetent.

Sad that every republican politician in congress is, when it comes to economics, either a liar or totally incompetent.
m00
2013-03-03 12:53:50 AM
2 votes:

whidbey: Actually, yes. "The left" isn't using all its socio-political resources to quash any and all progressive legislation aimed at reforming the system.

It's the stupid farking Republicans and other social conservatives as usual, trying to drag this country back to a time that never existed.


Nope -- the voters on both sides (at least, as represented on various online forums) are to blame. See, what you have written above is just the narrative you have been sold. "stupid farking Republicans and other social conservatives as usual... are to blame." As if one could wave a magic wand and make the Republican party disappear, that suddenly there would be economic fairness. See, conservatives have been sold exactly the same narrative, except switch R with D and conservative with liberal. The government and big business (the "culprits") have demonized each side in the eyes of the voting other, so that there can be no dialogue.

But c'mon, at the top the wealthy elite "conservatives" and wealthy elite "liberals" all go to the same country clubs, the same global invite-only conferences, and so forth. This whole Conservative vs Liberal thing is a distraction to maintain the status quo. There are of course useful idiots like Hollywood and Talk Radio, that give the scam a veneer of authenticity. This is why the tea party and OWS were so dangerous, until they were each disarmed / co-opted.

But until Republican and Democratic voters each realize the other basically wants the same thing -- a functioning meritocracy where the average person can live well (and put in hard work to live even better) but we don't let the poor, unlucky, and/or disabled starve and die in the streets -- then the scam will continue.
2013-03-03 12:30:35 AM
2 votes:

Emposter: whidbey: FAIL tag is for submitter, who would rather blame government because it needs to collect revenues instead of recognizing that huge corporations have been farking the American worker for decades now with deflated wages in spite of huge profit margins.

Heretic!  How dare you criticize the Sacred Job Creators, hallowed be their names?  Step back and realize that you strike out only in envy and jealousy.  Once you have realized this, you can set forth on the path of salvation, where you will give wealth to the Holy Job Creators, and perhaps, in their infinite compassion, they might allow a miniscule fraction of that wealth might trickle back to you.


img.photobucket.com

img.photobucket.com
2013-03-03 12:17:43 AM
2 votes:
FAIL tag is for submitter, who would rather blame government because it needs to collect revenues instead of recognizing that huge corporations have been farking the American worker for decades now with deflated wages in spite of huge profit margins.
m00
2013-03-03 12:11:53 AM
2 votes:

Emposter: Yeah, this is totally Obummer's fault, not at all the fault of the party that is constantly not only refusing to implement a rational progressive tax policy but also trying to shift even greater burdens onto the non-rich while cutting taxes for the rich, trying to repeal the minimum wage and block increases, and working to get rid of overtime, among many other wonderful proposals that totally aren't a class war against the middle class when THEY do them.


Yeah, I hate to break it to you but the rich don't have a tax burden. Cap gains is 15%. Until Obama advocates making income and cap gains equally taxed (or, God forbid, cap gains more), wealth will continue to be funneled from the middle class to the wealthy. All this nonsense they're debating over now is Obama wants to shift the tax burden to the upper middle class and the Republicans want to shift it to the lower middle class. But neither party is serious about taxing the rich.
2013-03-02 11:51:06 PM
2 votes:

walkingtall: If some of you fark progressives have an answer I would love to hear it. Taxes arent it.


An extremely progressive estate tax that starts at 1 million. Within a generation the National Debt will disappear.

Do the math.
2013-03-02 10:46:39 PM
2 votes:
I'm no expert, but I'm starting to think that allowing wealth to concentrate in fewer and fewer hands may not result in a bountiful trickling down and mass-enprosperating after all.
2013-03-02 10:24:56 PM
2 votes:
Maybe the subby is suggesting that the government pass a law that says that CEO's can't make more than 5% more than their average paid employee?
2013-03-02 09:19:00 PM
2 votes:

doglover: Japan also has a slave caste of people who work part time for peanuts. They ain't makin' no 1/11th of a CEO's salary.


The chart says AVERAGE worker.
2013-03-03 08:52:41 AM
1 votes:
Ever notice how people that believe in trickle-down economics also believe that poors should just be more bootstrappy?

But isn't trickle-down economics the very idea of a handout?  That so much wealth accrues at the top that it has nowhere else to go but down to the plebes?  That doesn't sound very bootstrappy to me.

Personally, I'd rather just be paid a decent wage for a hard day's work.  Silly me.
2013-03-03 07:26:28 AM
1 votes:

giftedmadness: Libs: "bush destroyed our economy!"

Pointing out bad economic  numbers under Obama...."the president has nothing to do with the economy!"


Yes, they are that intellectually dishonest.


Yes, Bush's two credit-card wars left us in great shape and Obama f*cked it all up by not fixing the mess fast enough. Gotcha.
2013-03-03 05:49:22 AM
1 votes:
Libs: "bush destroyed our economy!"

Pointing out bad economic  numbers under Obama...."the president has nothing to do with the economy!"


Yes, they are that intellectually dishonest.
2013-03-03 05:43:44 AM
1 votes:
That's cute, the Über-Corps, sitting on massive reserves of cash are too busy buying platinum shiatters and iridium parachutes for the aging frat bros to actually pay American workers a living wage, and that is somehow the President's fault.

I guess the kind of people that believe that fairy stories are literally true, jingoism is awesome, and yellow journalism is "fair and balanced" will lap this shiat up.

Reality, unfortunately for GOPtards, has a liberal bias. Every wannabe Jamie Dimon and Koch-sucker is to blame.
2013-03-03 05:42:25 AM
1 votes:

Rabbitgod: Max pay law.

CEO pay must be equal to or less than 100 times average company employee pay.

If the CEO is receiving maximum pay allowed but wants a raise, he needs to up the average pay by giving everyone else a raise too.


Mostly to the upper management and executives of course. Oh and sacking the ones in the mailroom and the janitors and pay for a 3rd party contractor to do those jobs to boost the average, etc. Very easy to manipulate that.
2013-03-03 03:44:37 AM
1 votes:
It is actually really sad to think about where your country could be right now if the last 4 years had not been wasted on internal political war with the terrorist party instead of actually working for the good of the nation.
2013-03-03 03:23:09 AM
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: He was elected

while remaining unashamedly black and Democratic. Twice. This absolutely infuriates people to the point of irrationality.

/FTFY.
2013-03-03 03:17:55 AM
1 votes:

m00: Zeppelininthesky: Apparently not. Anti-intellectualism is a requirement to vote Republican.

You realize, you kinda just proved me right. Right?


I agree with some of your points. People in this country on both sides of the political spectrum just don't give a crap anymore. The politicians only pander to the people to be voted into office. If the people don't want something, then the politicians must keep the people happy to stay in office. The problem is that sometimes the politicians make up an agenda, and then brainwash the people to support that cause. This is why 24 hour news and pundits have so much power. The pundits know this, and thy can get away with saying the same lies over and over. Eventually, people will start to believe the lie.
2013-03-03 03:10:57 AM
1 votes:

m00: Telling someone to "go read some history books" is exactly the kind of dismissive arrogant bullshiat that doesn't appeal to me.


If you're not aware that what we label as right and left, and those terms have been used for a while, is nothing new and that even before the familiar terms right and left came around the positions existed, it's going to be awful hard to have much of a conversation. Also there's the matter of just what conservative and liberal mean within the context, in America these days we don't have any conservatives when it comes to the role of government vis a vis interactions between private entities. Zero. What we have are social conservatives, and worse, who act as if social conservatism is interchangeable with political and fiscal conservatism. Nothing about being a conservative in terms of government has anything to do with social views, indeed you could be a raging social liberal and yet conservative when it comes to the role of government. However being a conservative when it comes to the role of government does not mean everyone for themselves and those with money get their way because society owes them everything. Just the opposite really.

 Is that GE's fault, or government's fault? Or both?

What GE is or isn't paying in taxes is a completely separate from what they are or aren't doing as far as increasing employee pay. Irony is, if they paid their employees more they'd have less to worry about as far as taxes since taxes are assessed for businesses on what's left after they pay for everything. But even that is a diversion since fundamentally any business decision that's bad for the economy is bad for business, maybe not tomorrow, or next week, but down the road it is. And what GE is doing as far as salaries is wholly separate from any issue of taxes.
m00
2013-03-03 02:56:07 AM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: If pay had been increasing for the last 33 years like it had increased for the previous 33 years we wouldn't have any debt issue to speak of, the deficit wouldn't be a problem either. Also we'd have fewer people relying on government programs to get by, which would have saved a bundle. But some people will insist it's all the government's fault, not the private sector's.


(from the NYT)

"[GE] reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 billion of the total came from its operations in the United States.
Its American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion."


Is that GE's fault, or government's fault? Or both?
m00
2013-03-03 02:46:42 AM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: m00: genuine ruling class

Except there really isn't one.

Right and left are collections of arbitrary positions that were invented to create a distraction (and yes apathy) amongst the voting class

Might I suggest some history books?


0/10

See, I like Whidbey. Despite the fact we disagree, he's interested in having a conversation and I enjoy that because it makes me examine my own positions, as well as consider outside perspectives. Telling someone to "go read some history books" is exactly the kind of dismissive arrogant bullshiat that doesn't appeal to me.
2013-03-03 02:46:27 AM
1 votes:
If pay had been increasing for the last 33 years like it had increased for the previous 33 years we wouldn't have any debt issue to speak of, the deficit wouldn't be a problem either. Also we'd have fewer people relying on government programs to get by, which would have saved a bundle. But some people will insist it's all the government's fault, not the private sector's.
2013-03-03 02:34:02 AM
1 votes:

doglover: cretinbob: [freethoughtblogs.com image 500x607]

Japan also has a slave caste of people who work part time for peanuts. They ain't makin' no 1/11th of a CEO's salary.


You are really stupid and you should feel bad, but you are too stupid to know why you should feel bad.
2013-03-03 02:24:48 AM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Notabunny: Emposter: whidbey: FAIL tag is for submitter, who would rather blame government because it needs to collect revenues instead of recognizing that huge corporations have been farking the American worker for decades now with deflated wages in spite of huge profit margins.

Heretic!  How dare you criticize the Sacred Job Creators, hallowed be their names?  Step back and realize that you strike out only in envy and jealousy.  Once you have realized this, you can set forth on the path of salvation, where you will give wealth to the Holy Job Creators, and perhaps, in their infinite compassion, they might allow a miniscule fraction of that wealth might trickle back to you.

[img.photobucket.com image 680x360]

productivity increase starting in the early 80s?

wow!  if there were only some machines and things that companies started to spend a lot of money on back then to increase productivity.


... Aaaand drastically falling wages are the natural byproduct of free market innovation?

Seriously, I'm not clear on your argument here.
2013-03-03 02:19:10 AM
1 votes:

randomjsa: Lionel Mandrake: The President controls wages?

Oh, right, he's a dictator!  He should dictate that greedy executives pay workers more!  Come on, Chairman 0bongo, dictate the f*ck out of those greedy capitalists like the tyrant you are!!

Obama the Blameless strikes again. It's always a mystery to me how Bush was responsible for <b>everything</b> bad that happened while there's always an excuse for Obama the Blameless.


Just like Bush tanked the economy by putting 2 expensive wars on credit, and because of a lie.  I am still trying to figure out what Obama exactly did.
2013-03-03 02:16:23 AM
1 votes:

shotglasss: cretinbob: [freethoughtblogs.com image 500x607]

That stat has been thoroughly discredited. Thanks for playing though.


I'm sorry, I missed where you provided the correct stats.

I will be waiting.
2013-03-03 02:05:29 AM
1 votes:
You mean GOP austerity measures haven't brought about utopia yet?
2013-03-03 01:39:14 AM
1 votes:

GranoblasticMan: utharda: I figured it out!

To get the trickle down to work, we need to punch holes in the job creators so their holy juices can pour over us.

[i.imgur.com image 343x600]

/Sufficiently obscure?


At least Broomhilda  was hot

www.blackfilm.com
2013-03-03 01:31:37 AM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Notabunny: Emposter: whidbey: FAIL tag is for submitter, who would rather blame government because it needs to collect revenues instead of recognizing that huge corporations have been farking the American worker for decades now with deflated wages in spite of huge profit margins.

Heretic!  How dare you criticize the Sacred Job Creators, hallowed be their names?  Step back and realize that you strike out only in envy and jealousy.  Once you have realized this, you can set forth on the path of salvation, where you will give wealth to the Holy Job Creators, and perhaps, in their infinite compassion, they might allow a miniscule fraction of that wealth might trickle back to you.

[img.photobucket.com image 680x360]

productivity increase starting in the early 80s?

wow!  if there were only some machines and things that companies started to spend a lot of money on back then to increase productivity.


Um, no. If you look carefully, you'll see productivity was increasing steadily before the 1980s.
2013-03-03 01:20:36 AM
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Notabunny: Emposter: whidbey: FAIL tag is for submitter, who would rather blame government because it needs to collect revenues instead of recognizing that huge corporations have been farking the American worker for decades now with deflated wages in spite of huge profit margins.

Heretic!  How dare you criticize the Sacred Job Creators, hallowed be their names?  Step back and realize that you strike out only in envy and jealousy.  Once you have realized this, you can set forth on the path of salvation, where you will give wealth to the Holy Job Creators, and perhaps, in their infinite compassion, they might allow a miniscule fraction of that wealth might trickle back to you.

[img.photobucket.com image 680x360]

productivity increase starting in the early 80s?

wow!  if there were only some machines and things that companies started to spend a lot of money on back then to increase productivity.

What's your point?

The use of machines excuses corporate greed and increasing wealth disparity?


I know lots of people that think a person doing the work of 3-4 people still only entitles them to the salary of 1 person.

I can't complain though, I've been consistently getting raises over the last 5 years, so they have been compensating me more as I take on the responsibilities of employees that leave or are laid off.

But I work for a decent company.
2013-03-03 01:09:35 AM
1 votes:
YES! It's the fault of the president! Even though we have record productivity across the board, companies have NOTHING to do with how they treat their employees and you can't tell me otherwise!

/seriously, troll headline.
2013-03-03 01:05:33 AM
1 votes:

m00: whidbey: Actually, yes. "The left" isn't using all its socio-political resources to quash any and all progressive legislation aimed at reforming the system.

It's the stupid farking Republicans and other social conservatives as usual, trying to drag this country back to a time that never existed.

Nope -- the voters on both sides (at least, as represented on various online forums) are to blame. See, what you have written above is just the narrative you have been sold. "stupid farking Republicans and other social conservatives as usual... are to blame." As if one could wave a magic wand and make the Republican party disappear, that suddenly there would be economic fairness. See, conservatives have been sold exactly the same narrative, except switch R with D and conservative with liberal. The government and big business (the "culprits") have demonized each side in the eyes of the voting other, so that there can be no dialogue.


If you're describing the general sense of apathy that pervades the voting public, I would agree.

And yeah, the Republican party needs to "disappear."    We need to stop electing social conservatives to office.

And while I would  also agree that both parties are heavily influenced by big business if not outright controlled,  the Democratic Party is the only hope we have of changing the paradigm.    The biggest reason why their policies are watered down is not because of business lobbying, but because the people who voted them in by and large do not take responsibility past checking "Yes" at the ballot box.

But c'mon, at the top the wealthy elite "conservatives" and wealthy elite "liberals" all go to the same country clubs, the same global invite-only conferences, and so forth.

That might be true, but the "conservative elite" doesn't even believe in man-made climate change.  Or that we should even have a progressive tax system.   I don't understand the need to force these kinds of comparisons.

But until Republican and Democratic voters each realize the other basically wants the same thing -- a functioning meritocracy where the average person can live well (and put in hard work to live even better) but we don't let the poor, unlucky, and/or disabled starve and die in the streets -- then the scam will continue

I don't see that as a problem so much on the right.  They're already mobilized.  Their work is much easier, because this country is already politically-right dominant.

Again, we have a very powerful entity called the Democratic Party that we should be taking advantage of.  I suppose you could say the same thing of the Republican Party.  But I won't. Fark 'em.

But c'mon, at the top the wealthy elite "conservatives" and wealthy elite "liberals" all go to the same country clubs, the same global invite-only conferences, and so forth. This whole Conservative vs Liberal thing is a distraction to maintain the status quo. There are of course useful idiots like Hollywood and Talk Radio, that give the scam a veneer of authenticity. This is why the tea party and OWS were so dangerous, until they were each disarmed / co-opted.

But until Republican and Democratic voters each realize the other basically wants the same thing -- a functioning meritocracy where the average person can live well (and put in hard work to live even better) but we don't let the poor, unlucky, and/or disabled starve and die in the streets -- then the scam will continue.
2013-03-03 12:39:23 AM
1 votes:

m00: And this is never going to get solved as long as the left and the right are fighting each other,


Actually, yes.  "The left" isn't using all its socio-political resources to quash any and all progressive legislation aimed at reforming the system.

It's the stupid farking Republicans and other social conservatives as usual,  trying to drag this country back to a time that never existed.
2013-03-02 11:59:46 PM
1 votes:

NewportBarGuy: I really pity those that can't read/understand economic reports.


Jesus tap-dancing Christ, THIS! Subby should be beaten like a rented mule.
2013-03-02 11:45:57 PM
1 votes:

JohnnyC: walkingtall: Wages have gone down because the labor pool doubled in 20 years or so.

So you don't think it has anything to do with CEO's hoarding most of the profits while giving their employees crap for wages? You just think there are too many workers?


Makes sense; when a restaurant attracts more customers, the portions get smaller and the chef gets fatter.
2013-03-02 11:18:49 PM
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: James F. Campbell: [home.comcast.net image 850x637]

So vote Republican.

b-b-but what about abortions and the War on Christmas and anchor babies and the Muslim Brotherhood and Communists in our universities and the oppression of Christians and the undesirable urban criminal people (you know who I mean) and voter fraud and death panels and ACORN, etc, etc, etc...

We must vote Republican!!  Only they can protect us!  The Democrat Party doesn't even acknowledge these threats to our freedoms!


... and don't forget all those women claiming to have gotten pregnant from rape! Lying whores, the lot of 'em.
2013-03-02 11:14:00 PM
1 votes:
What nobody on fark seems to realize is that the 3 things that are removing millions of people from middle class are healthcare, college and housing. All three of which the federal govt has messed with extensively over the past 30 years or so. All other aspects of middle class life have either stayed the same or gone down. Wages have gone down because the labor pool doubled in 20 years or so. We are seeing the end of the idea of scarcity of labor which gave bargaining to people for their labor. Labor is now a commodity and govt is continuing to mess with the 3 areas that are dragging people into being poor.
2013-03-02 11:08:46 PM
1 votes:
Just in case you think sanity is about to prevail, Republicans have decided this is the perfect time to revisit Medicare vouchers.
2013-03-02 11:05:54 PM
1 votes:

James F. Campbell: [home.comcast.net image 850x637]

So vote Republican.


b-b-but what about abortions and the War on Christmas and anchor babies and the Muslim Brotherhood and Communists in our universities and the oppression of Christians and the undesirable urban criminal people (you know who I mean) and voter fraud and death panels and ACORN, etc, etc, etc...

We must vote Republican!!  Only they can protect us!  The Democrat Party doesn't even acknowledge these threats to our freedoms!
2013-03-02 11:00:12 PM
1 votes:

schoolbread: invictus2: After-tax pay drops to lowest level since 1959. That change you voted for? Better check the couch cushions.

All, I found was stale cheetos, an old ketchup packet, and a dogs chew toy.

What did everyone else find?

5mg methadone pill, a dirty sock, and some good and fruity candies. Sounds like a good time to me


Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Dallas with all that.
2013-03-02 10:59:47 PM
1 votes:
Thank god real wages have kept pace with productivity since 1959, otherwise we wouldn't be able to blame this all on the black guy.
2013-03-02 10:45:26 PM
1 votes:

shotglasss: cretinbob: [freethoughtblogs.com image 500x607]

That stat has been thoroughly discredited. Thanks for playing though.


Oh, well, since you say so, it must be true.  No need to give sources or anything.  I totally trust you.
2013-03-02 10:32:55 PM
1 votes:
Yeah, like this crap wasn't set in motion until Obama showed up.
Typical brainless idiot. Obama isn't the cause, just the continuation.
2013-03-02 10:31:08 PM
1 votes:

Emposter: Yeah, this is totally Obummer's fault, not at all the fault of the party that is constantly not only refusing to implement a rational progressive tax policy but also trying to shift even greater burdens onto the non-rich while cutting taxes for the rich, trying to repeal the minimum wage and block increases, and working to get rid of overtime, among many other wonderful proposals that totally aren't a class war against the middle class when THEY do them.


We are taxed enough. The problem is that gubberment is spending nearly double what they're taking in. What other entity can do that?
2013-03-02 10:29:43 PM
1 votes:

doglover: cretinbob: [freethoughtblogs.com image 500x607]

Japan also has a slave caste of people who work part time for peanuts. They ain't makin' no 1/11th of a CEO's salary.


http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

/cdn.head-fi.org
2013-03-02 10:16:53 PM
1 votes:
Japan is apparently North Korea now
2013-03-02 10:14:27 PM
1 votes:
but don't raise taxes on those hedge fund managers, that's soshulismz!
2013-03-02 10:09:57 PM
1 votes:
Well that's it.  If only we had elected Romney wages for the average worker would have gone through the ceiling!
2013-03-02 09:07:49 PM
1 votes:

cretinbob: [freethoughtblogs.com image 500x607]


Japan also has a slave caste of people who work part time for peanuts. They ain't makin' no 1/11th of a CEO's salary.
2013-03-02 08:50:07 PM
1 votes:
That trickle is coming, I can feel it. Just one more tax break and we are there.
 
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