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(io9)   Executive Director of maternity care non-profit: "Women don't have full, accurate and unbiased information about the benefits and harms of having an elective C-section." Hospitals:"$hut up"   (io9.com) divider line 62
    More: Obvious, United States, executive directors, Canadian Medical Association Journal, risk profiles, gut bacteria, infant mortality, intensive care, nonprofits  
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2803 clicks; posted to Geek » on 02 Mar 2013 at 5:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-03 07:58:33 PM

untaken_name: I created this alt just for this thread: untaken_name: kroonermanblack: Especially the 'we're going to legislate your morals' bits.

Legislation is literally codified morality. That is all it is. Every law is a moral which is enforced using the police power of the state. It is impossible to legislate without "legislating morals". It cannot be done.

Incorrect.  For example, we have laws that dictate what color a fire engine can be, laws that set a minimum height for street signs, laws that require certain public workers to wear uniforms while working, laws that specify what foods are offered in public school cafeterias, laws that set forth the definitions of certain words, and so on.  Laws and morals intersect, but laws are in no way a wholly contained subset of morals.

Sure they are. Do you even know what "morals" are? Apparently not, if you don't think that codified rules for things count. Having a fire engine the wrong color is bad behavior which is punished. Having a fire engine the right color is good behavior which is not punished. That is absolutely morality.

But don't take MY word for it. Oh, Heavens, no. Why not try dictionary.com's word?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morality

Definition 1, the most common, most used, or most-often applicable definition, is: "conformitytotherulesofrightconduct"

 Checkmate. Thank you for playing, have a nice day.


According to you, laws dictating a fire engine's color are morals because to not follow those laws would be "bad" (and therefore immoral).  That sort of argument is what is known as "begging the question."  Would you care to try again, but this time without the logical fallacy?

Keep in mind that morals are always about right and wrong, and laws are not.  Failure to obey a law is not inherently "wrong", just as obeying a law is not inherently "right."  Further, a law in and of itself can explicitly be immoral.  Something cannot simultaneously be both moral and immoral within the same moral structure, so the fact that an immoral law can even exist proves that all laws are not morals.
 
2013-03-03 08:09:32 PM

I created this alt just for this thread: Keep in mind that morals are always about right and wrong, and laws are not.


They absolutely constitute what is considered "right conduct". That is their function. There is no such thing as an immoral law, and the fact that you must assume their existence in order to have a point shows how weak your point is. What is an example of an immoral law, and what, exactly, makes that law immoral? Please be specific.
 
2013-03-03 08:12:24 PM
I'm actually going to have to make this decision within the year, and given that I was a C-section myself, knowing what the side effects were like for many friends and aunties who've done it the natural way, the surgical way and even the adoptive way...I have to say, who knows what they're doing better, a surgeon who yanks out more sprogs than I've had hot dinners, or some Farkette whose idea of physical exertion involves the Kinect?

I don't need this woo-woo 'natural' stuff or any of the doulas' waxing eloquent about a 'positive birth experience.' I'm in this to get a small, crying, puking, crapping and eventually talking critter I can eventually teach to read, take to Pixar movies and send fishing with her father, among other challenging and rewarding activities. I do not need a 'positive birth experience' to get that anymore than I need a 'positive experience' with pools of warm water and deep breathing and aromatherapy and bullshiat to renew my driver's license, close on a house or accept a promotion.

It's a life change, not a freakin' Sweet Sixteen, and these whack-a-doodle ladies who go on and on about how they want their birth experience to be perfect are insane. The kid is never going to remember it, the father probably just wants to see as little placenta as possible and provided I don't have to give birth in a cardboard box in the linen closet like Mittens, I'll be quite happy. If, in 2013, I have medical science as an option over backrubs and soft music, I am going with medical science. Medical science knows what it's doing 95% of the time and if it farks up, it can be sued. Let the wibbledy earth-mother hippies make a living decorating babies' rooms and writing really PC bedtime stories. If I find myself great with n00b, I want a pro to get it out of there.

We only want one kid, so the subsequent risk of uterine rupture without a C-section is not an issue, whereas the episiotomy and pelvic-floor risks are far less negotiable. If the doctor says C-section, I'll say "okay, what does other doctor say?" and if they both agree, then C-section it is. I'd rather take risks with my own healing-up than with the kid's health, and if I don't recover right away, well, that's what dads and overly-interested grandparents are for. If two different doctors say natural, then that's fine, too, and in the event of a disagreement, I'll either call up a third doctor or go with the one whose known me the longest, since 'Downton Abbey' made a good point on that. Consulting at least two experts is never a bad idea.

Listening to mindless and or derpy fear-mongering, however...let's just say that I don't think any good can come out of making already hormone-crazed ladies panic. It's like they want a bunch of gravid vigilantes to enforce a bloody cull of what used to be the Third Estate out of sheer pique.
 
2013-03-03 08:31:37 PM

untaken_name: There is no such thing as an immoral law


There's a few million dead Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Christians, accused witches, and Russians that would disagree with you there, sparky.
 
2013-03-03 09:44:08 PM

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: untaken_name: There is no such thing as an immoral law

There's a few million dead Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Christians, accused witches, and Russians that would disagree with you there, sparky.


How would they do that, exactly? Pretty sure that no matter what irrational beliefs you hold, there's no actual way to communicate with the dead.
 
2013-03-03 11:00:47 PM

untaken_name: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: untaken_name: There is no such thing as an immoral law

There's a few million dead Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Christians, accused witches, and Russians that would disagree with you there, sparky.

How would they do that, exactly? Pretty sure that no matter what irrational beliefs you hold, there's no actual way to communicate with the dead.


Pedantry is the last refuge of the weak argument.

The laws that formed the Holocaust, the Witch Trials, the Great Purge, the Roman persecution of Christians, and the myriad other laws throughout history created to facilitate genocide, are immoral laws.

/Cue the "moral relativism" rebuttal in 3...2..1...
 
2013-03-04 01:00:52 AM
This thread should have been aborted. Yikes.
 
2013-03-04 01:25:08 AM

I created this alt just for this thread: untaken_name: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: untaken_name: There is no such thing as an immoral law

There's a few million dead Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Christians, accused witches, and Russians that would disagree with you there, sparky.

How would they do that, exactly? Pretty sure that no matter what irrational beliefs you hold, there's no actual way to communicate with the dead.

Pedantry is the last refuge of the weak argument.

The laws that formed the Holocaust, the Witch Trials, the Great Purge, the Roman persecution of Christians, and the myriad other laws throughout history created to facilitate genocide, are immoral laws.

/Cue the "moral relativism" rebuttal in 3...2..1...


Pretty brave of you to admit you can't escape the moral relativism problem. You called those laws above immoral. Now, I think it would be eminently reasonable of you to explain by what standard they are immoral. 

/cue the "it feels wrong" argument
 
2013-03-04 12:05:55 PM

Fukuzawa: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men:

In my wife's case they gave her the pitocin after 2 days or not giving her enough water, food, or sleep. After that, things you wouldn't normally have agreed to before sound like much better options.

/Never went back to that OB again, but the damage was done.
//At least he didn't have to work late on New Years.


Ok, then when she does have the emergency c-section after not being able to have it vaginally for too long, you'll be ok with the fact that they fed her and she died of aspiration when the food/drinks came up and went straight down into her lungs and drowned her on the operating table...  but for God's sake, feed the girl!
 
2013-03-04 12:50:05 PM

lyanna96: Ok, then when she does have the emergency c-section after not being able to have it vaginally for too long, you'll be ok with the fact that they fed her and she died of aspiration when the food/drinks came up and went straight down into her lungs and drowned her on the operating table...  but for God's sake, feed the girl!


d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net
 
2013-03-05 05:49:00 AM
*bow*

Thank you, thank you...  I'd like to thank the audience....
 
2013-03-05 05:51:48 AM

untaken_name: I created this alt just for this thread:....*crickets*


Yeah, that "moral relativity" problem is a real biatch, eh? Don't worry. None of Earth's philosophizers have been able to conquer it. No reason you should be able to.
 
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