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(Washington Times)   Fewer math teachers, more assistant offensive line coaches and deputy superintendents for diversity enhancement (grades 4-5) - now THAT will fix our education system   (washingtontimes.com) divider line 70
    More: Fail, deputy superintendent, educations, National Center for Education Statistics, Virginia Department of Education, school division, federal Department of Education, diversity, school vouchers  
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4462 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Mar 2013 at 12:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-02 12:28:42 PM  
How shocking! And it's not like they have an ax to grind or anything...

(/sarcasm)
 
2013-03-02 12:35:10 PM  
As a special ed teacher, I sometimes find myself in comical situations where there are 4 or 5 adults in a room with 28 kids at a time. The gen ed teacher and I are running around like crazy people and are being evaluated by school administrators, special ed coordinators, reading coaches, etc. Kids are pretty used to random people in the back of the room writing in notebooks and IPads and wasting everyone's time.
 
2013-03-02 12:36:03 PM  
I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.

/dnrtfa
 
2013-03-02 12:37:58 PM  
Has The Moony Times gotten a little less Moony since His Moony-ness passed away? Seems like they haven't really been bringing the derp like they used to.
 
2013-03-02 12:38:35 PM  

WhackingDay: I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.

/dnrtfa


Those curriculum specialists are unsung heroes, endlessly researching how to improve the didactics of the ever changing field of plane geometry.
 
2013-03-02 12:39:14 PM  
How dare you question how the money is spent i stead of blindly sending moar money subby. You are a book burning Nazi that thinks the earth is flat.
 
2013-03-02 12:39:35 PM  
Schools have long since lost the idea of teaching and are now more interested in becoming perpetuation machines.

We pay more for significantly worse results when it comes to education.
 
2013-03-02 12:41:05 PM  

Paduke: As a special ed teacher, I sometimes find myself in comical situations where there are 4 or 5 adults in a room with 28 kids at a time. The gen ed teacher and I are running around like crazy people and are being evaluated by school administrators, special ed coordinators, reading coaches, etc. Kids are pretty used to random people in the back of the room writing in notebooks and IPads and wasting everyone's time.


On the flipside, as a special ed teacher in my district, you'd be pretty used to 4 or 5 adults in a room with <20 kids, getting (as much as possible) individualized assistance from classroom aides.

On the whole, we have about 2 aides for every three teachers. Throw other support staff (lunchroom people, janitors, secretaries, etc.,) we DEFINITELY have more nonteachers than teachers. In the military, they call it the tooth-to-tail ratio.

/IT guy
//Technically also a classroom aide.
 
2013-03-02 12:45:28 PM  

WhackingDay: I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.


First year courses need to be taught by dedicated teaching faculty.  The research faculty can handle high courses, but if a student's first introduction to University-Level !subject is a disinterested prof who cares more about his research than this stupid course, that student is being done a grave disservice.

However, universities would rather hire high-profile research faculty, plus deans, rectors, vice-presidents and other high-salaried admin than lecturers or teaching faculty.

/not just saying that because a mass hiring of lecturers would open up job vacancies for me
 
2013-03-02 12:46:37 PM  
So (like everyone else) we had our budget slashed every year for the past 5 years.  In the past teachers had a "duty" period where you would monitor a lunch or a study hall.  We used our math and science teachers to tutor kids who had failed the state graduation (OGT) test - we had (/BoratOn "Great Success" /Boratoff) with the program.

When the cuts finally became too deep we did what most schools did - we let a bunch of teachers go, hired untrained "mothers" to babysit the studyhalls and lunch and had the remaining teachers teach an extra period during that time.  In and of themselves none of these things is a crime against humanity but the results were fairly predictable:

The lunches and study halls are bigger discipline problems as the students figured out the babysitters had no real power.
The kids that failed the OGT arent getting any additional help.
The remaining staff is more worn out and less connected since you basically never leave your room during the day.

And even if you ignore all of those other points, by this studies measure our school is now "worse" because we have more "non teachers" than we had before - and all because of the cuts made by the very same people who LOVE studies like this.
 
2013-03-02 12:51:32 PM  
We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you
 
2013-03-02 12:51:42 PM  

Bondith: WhackingDay: I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.

First year courses need to be taught by dedicated teaching faculty.  The research faculty can handle high courses, but if a student's first introduction to University-Level !subject is a disinterested prof who cares more about his research than this stupid course, that student is being done a grave disservice.

However, universities would rather hire high-profile research faculty, plus deans, rectors, vice-presidents and other high-salaried admin than lecturers or teaching faculty.

/not just saying that because a mass hiring of lecturers would open up job vacancies for me


I've experienced that.  When I was working toward my computer science degree, the best teacher I had was a guy who was 100% focused on teaching (and I've heard that the other faculty had to lobby really hard to convince the school to hire him), and the worst I had was a guy whose web page had more to say about his research than his teaching work.
 
2013-03-02 12:55:13 PM  
Next you're going to tell me there's more support staff then doctors in a Hospital.  I am shocked, horrifically shocked at these insinuations.
 
2013-03-02 12:59:50 PM  
Fund and treat education better than defense and America will be the top world power for a long time to come.
 
2013-03-02 01:01:42 PM  
Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.
 
2013-03-02 01:02:01 PM  

Crewmannumber6: We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you


I'm a teacher. Please read this again.
 
2013-03-02 01:05:24 PM  

shlabotnik: Crewmannumber6: We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you

I'm a teacher. Please read this again.


I'm not a teacher, but I've met too many that I DON'T want raising my kids, so the division of labor is is obvious.

/I have met a few that I wouldn't mind bearing my kids, though.
 
2013-03-02 01:07:37 PM  

WhackingDay: I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.

/dnrtfa


In higher ed it's being driven by simple consumerism.  Students today expect levels of service vastly beyond what college students used to.

Don't have a fully staffed, state of the art athletic center?  Students will go someplace else
Don't have a fully staffed physical and mental health department?[1]  Students will go someplace else
Don't have a dedicated computer repair department along with both wired and wireless access everywhere?  Students will go someplace else

Add into this the college having to handle helicopter parents- having the folks at academic advising run interference for me with pissed off parents saves my sanity.

[1] We've had inquiries if we have an inpatient treatment center to handle the mental health issues of their little snowflake.  Folks, if your kid needs constant inpatient treatment they shouldn't be at college.
 
2013-03-02 01:08:03 PM  
In the M.I., 10,000 men fight.
 
2013-03-02 01:11:12 PM  

banshee612: Fund and treat education better than defense and America will be the top world power for a long time to come.


So we should flush billions of $ down the toilet on pork barrel educational research projects and open expensive schools in foreign countries?

/joking, I really would like to see some defense money shifted to education
 
2013-03-02 01:16:02 PM  
Everyone in the MI drops.
 
2013-03-02 01:35:16 PM  

Fizpez: So (like everyone else) we had our budget slashed every year for the past 5 years.  In the past teachers had a "duty" period where you would monitor a lunch or a study hall.  We used our math and science teachers to tutor kids who had failed the state graduation (OGT) test - we had (/BoratOn "Great Success" /Boratoff) with the program.

When the cuts finally became too deep we did what most schools did - we let a bunch of teachers go, hired untrained "mothers" to babysit the studyhalls and lunch and had the remaining teachers teach an extra period during that time.  In and of themselves none of these things is a crime against humanity but the results were fairly predictable:

The lunches and study halls are bigger discipline problems as the students figured out the babysitters had no real power.
The kids that failed the OGT arent getting any additional help.
The remaining staff is more worn out and less connected since you basically never leave your room during the day.

And even if you ignore all of those other points, by this studies measure our school is now "worse" because we have more "non teachers" than we had before - and all because of the cuts made by the very same people who LOVE studies like this.


If firing competent teachers and hiring babysitters was your solution to budget cuts that may or may not have actually happened, then you're a poster child for why they are right.
 
2013-03-02 01:36:14 PM  
Need more administrators to keep those union teachers in line. Right, Mr. Walker? Right, people blaming "libs" in TFC?
 
2013-03-02 01:37:41 PM  

Mock26: Everyone in the MI drops.


Straight people become gay and gay people become Mexican.

Everyone goes down a notch!
 
2013-03-02 01:48:40 PM  

Crewmannumber6: We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you

It's exclusionary?
Is your argument that we should continue to expect crap results from our educational system because jello? Parents really don't expect the teachers to "raise" our children. We expect them to teach basic skills. We also expect that they do that without leeching the public trust and wasting our treasure on cronyism, protection rackets and incompetence. Is THAT too much too ask?
I think so in this era.
We don't want teachers to raise our kids moran. Get a brian....
 
2013-03-02 01:50:41 PM  
There are so many problems with the American K-12 system.

But money isn't one of them. We spend roughly $10K per student per year. I want you to let that number sink in just a little. My senior class had about 250 people in it. That's 2.5 LARGE. Where does that money go? I tell you where it does NOT go is to teacher's salaries. Personally, I'd like some benefactor say, you know what...fark it, I'm going to pony the money up to make incoming salary $100K, and see what happens.

But there are many societal problems with it. One of the biggest is that school is just babysitting for a lot of parents. They show no interest in the child's education, and even if they did, they are probably too stupid to help. After all, what kind of farking moron has kids?

There other is the well-publicized (here on FARK) snowflake effect. It is a disservice to society to have kids not get the shiat smacked out of them from time to time (I am not talking about physically), whence they then get their ass handed to them by their first boss, and expect mumsy and pappy to come ride in and set everything straight. This shiat aint real. Real is your dad shows up at your work site, and the boss has your dad carted off on a trespassing charge and he fills out TRO paperwork.

One other thing that I think doesn't get enough attention, and that's special needs spending. I don't give a fark what their needs are. None of them are SPECIAL enough to spend 5x the amount on them that we do ordinary students. Why should tards be rewarded for being tards? I'm not saying tie up all tards in a closet. I am just saying it is wrong-headed to spend MORE on them.
 
2013-03-02 01:53:54 PM  

SevenizGud: There are so many problems with the American K-12 system.

But money isn't one of them. We spend roughly $10K per student per year. I want you to let that number sink in just a little. My senior class had about 250 people in it. That's 2.5 LARGE. Where does that money go? I tell you where it does NOT go is to teacher's salaries. Personally, I'd like some benefactor say, you know what...fark it, I'm going to pony the money up to make incoming salary $100K, and see what happens.

But there are many societal problems with it. One of the biggest is that school is just babysitting for a lot of parents. They show no interest in the child's education, and even if they did, they are probably too stupid to help. After all, what kind of farking moron has kids?

There other is the well-publicized (here on FARK) snowflake effect. It is a disservice to society to have kids not get the shiat smacked out of them from time to time (I am not talking about physically), whence they then get their ass handed to them by their first boss, and expect mumsy and pappy to come ride in and set everything straight. This shiat aint real. Real is your dad shows up at your work site, and the boss has your dad carted off on a trespassing charge and he fills out TRO paperwork.

One other thing that I think doesn't get enough attention, and that's special needs spending. I don't give a fark what their needs are. None of them are SPECIAL enough to spend 5x the amount on them that we do ordinary students. Why should tards be rewarded for being tards? I'm not saying tie up all tards in a closet. I am just saying it is wrong-headed to spend MORE on them.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-02 01:57:01 PM  
I'm not sure what you guys are objecting to.

Society needs its oil-change specialists and its NFL players.


/ wait until they are all that way.
 
2013-03-02 02:01:53 PM  

SevenizGud: There are so many problems with the American K-12 system.

But there are many societal problems with it. One of the biggest is that school is just babysitting for a lot of parents. They show no interest in the child's education, and even if they did, they are probably too stupid to help. After all, what kind of farking moron has kids?

There other is the well-publicized (here on FARK) snowflake effect. It is a disservice to society to have kids not get the shiat smacked out of them from time to time (I am not talking about physically), whence they then get their ass handed to them by their first boss, and expect mumsy and pappy to come ride in and set everything straight. This shiat aint real. Real is your dad shows up at your work site, and the boss has your dad carted off on a trespassing charge and he fills out TRO paperwork.



Home schooling via computer is where it's at for those that can't afford private schools.

Public schools are a joke.

I don't see why any parent would send their kid to a public school these days.
 
2013-03-02 02:07:55 PM  

DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.


0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.
 
2013-03-02 02:09:50 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: WhackingDay: I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.

/dnrtfa

In higher ed it's being driven by simple consumerism.  Students today expect levels of service vastly beyond what college students used to.

Don't have a fully staffed, state of the art athletic center?  Students will go someplace else
Don't have a fully staffed physical and mental health department?[1]  Students will go someplace else
Don't have a dedicated computer repair department along with both wired and wireless access everywhere?  Students will go someplace else

Add into this the college having to handle helicopter parents- having the folks at academic advising run interference for me with pissed off parents saves my sanity.

[1] We've had inquiries if we have an inpatient treatment center to handle the mental health issues of their little snowflake.  Folks, if your kid needs constant inpatient treatment they shouldn't be at college.


Shut off the spigot of student loan money, which would be a natural reaction to making private-party student loans dischargable in bankruptcy, and you'll see that insane choosiness evaporate.
 
2013-03-02 02:20:30 PM  

Paduke: As a special ed teacher, I sometimes find myself in comical situations where there are 4 or 5 adults in a room with 28 kids at a time. The gen ed teacher and I are running around like crazy people and are being evaluated by school administrators, special ed coordinators, reading coaches, etc. Kids are pretty used to random people in the back of the room writing in notebooks and IPads and wasting everyone's time.


We had to go into "restructuring" under NCLB. I had some asshole in my classroom 3 times a week, making sure I had the requisite language objectives for every single lessons I taught. It's really hard to direct an orchestra or steel drum band in 45 minutes when 20 minutes of that is wasted on a single language objective. It was ungodly stupid. Teaching now is a masochistic endeavor.
 
2013-03-02 02:24:07 PM  

leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.


Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.
 
2013-03-02 02:26:46 PM  
Here's what I think schools should be doing:

1) starting in the 1st grade, students are given a final exam covering reading and math.  If they can't read, they repeat the first grade.  If they score below a bench mark, repeat the first grade, within X% of benchmark summer school, retest and either move on or repeat.

This test is done annually based on each grade.  Can't read, write or do math at that grade level, repeat.

2) we need more teachers, but it is a shiat job.  Low pay, high requirements, and each time you punish or fail a kid the parents get pissed.  Teachers should not need anything beyond an Associate's degree.  Secondly, benefit of the doubt has to fall to the teacher.  If the teacher fails little Johnny because he hasn't turned in any assignments, how does the teacher prove that to an angry mother who shouts that Johnny turned in everything?  Now, this is the hard part, but, there needs to be a return to parenting similar to when I was a kid which is if the teacher says the child is failing, the parent backs the teacher.  If the teacher says the child is misbehaving, the parent backs the teacher.  It is really no surprise that the parents who assume the teacher is wrong and the child is innocent are my former classmates.  Clearly, very few of them grew up.

3). Put more money into schools.  Why can cities build new sports stadiums but not put any of that money into the schools?

4). Physical activities.  I have heard about schools that have eliminated p.e. and cut recess back or completely out.  Kids have a ton of energy.  You can't expect them to sit in desks all day long like adults.  But with this nonsense of teaching to the test, that's happened.

5). Make it clear to parents that schools aren't babysitters, if they don't like it, they are free to home school.

6) some lessons may go against your religious beliefs.  Don't like it, look to other schools.

7) in jr high, aptitude testing and give the option for a high school for those who are college bound or a high school focused on a trade.  This generalized high school that ends with students being ill prepared for college and unskilled for anything beyond a minimum wage job is stupid.  Include how to interview tips as well as job placement or scholarship help.
 
2013-03-02 02:27:39 PM  
deputy superintendents for diversity enhancement


Stick a fork in it.
 
2013-03-02 02:30:25 PM  

DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.


Only if you keep your red herrings in the fridge.
 
2013-03-02 02:32:49 PM  

studs up: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Only if you keep your red herrings in the fridge.


It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education.
 
2013-03-02 02:35:28 PM  

DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.


Teachers unions aren't about improving education anymore, if they ever were. They exist to block merit-based promotions and fight for benefits packages that help bankrupt cities and states. Vouchers for private schools don't affect Johnny's ability to learn math from an incompetent teacher in a public school.
 
2013-03-02 02:37:22 PM  

Paduke: As a special ed teacher, I sometimes find myself in comical situations where there are 4 or 5 adults in a room with 28 kids at a time. The gen ed teacher and I are running around like crazy people and are being evaluated by school administrators, special ed coordinators, reading coaches, etc. Kids are pretty used to random people in the back of the room writing in notebooks and IPads and wasting everyone's time.


I am certain that your numbers are accurate.  We have a tendency in every type of government-administered program to become extremely top-heavy.  What is disturbing about the education system is that the bureaucracy is multi-tiered.  There are federal programs, state programs and local administration policies.  They are often at cross-purposes and seldom well-coordinated.  And every program requires an administrator to oversee the program and you can't be a real administrator unless you have a staff.  In effect, we are telling our teachers that they must go to school and become certified so that we know they are able to teach and then we allow them no opportunity to demonstrate that they can actually use those skills because the administration micromanages every facet of classroom life.  One has to wonder about any program that requires an army of monitors and assorted busybodies to determine its effectiveness.  If our students came out smarter, wouldn't we know?  Teachers have my sympathy.
 
2013-03-02 02:43:59 PM  

DrZiffle: studs up: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Only if you keep your red herrings in the fridge.

It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative Pissed off parents support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education educators.


FFTBSFY
 
2013-03-02 02:44:23 PM  
Helicopter moms, whiny, 30ish ratbags stomping around saying "exCUSE me, that came out of my VAGINA and YOU have to do what I SAY", fatherless homes, sexual predators, (some of them teachers), quasi literate educators teaching 6th graders when they can barely read, endless hand wringing about diversity and bubble wrapping, math and sciences funding disappearing into security budgets.  Armed guards, weapons smuggling.  We're not funding or running schools, folks.  It's incarceration prep.  And it's going to get worse because the people who CAN fund and direct education don't want the real deal anywhere near the future crop of shovel monkeys and waitresses.  You have to keep the riff raff out.  It's all about moving money around and as prisons and schools get privatized, it's just gonna be one more turnstile with a pay window, either way.  The wealthy wont rest until "public" anything will be the same as "public toilet".  Sh*tty, messy, smelly, and if you don't like it, then don't use it.  Buy something better.
 
2013-03-02 02:47:35 PM  

leevis: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Teachers unions aren't about improving education anymore, if they ever were. They exist to block merit-based promotions and fight for benefits packages that help bankrupt cities and states. Vouchers for private schools don't affect Johnny's ability to learn math from an incompetent teacher in a public schoo


How about paying a decent wage? And don't give me that "teachers get the summer off bullshiat." Pay a living wage and Johnny's teacher might do better.

Classrooms are overcrowded, and teachers are overworked because of the right's litany of "no taxes no taxes!"
Conservative republicans promote creationism and climate-change denial. No child left behind undermines teaching in favor of testing and outcomes assessments that come out of corporate culture.

And "Johnny's incompetent teacher" is a red herring, a hasty generalization, and a half dozen other logical fallacies.
 
2013-03-02 02:49:57 PM  
Thank your legislators, particularly those all wrapped up in "no child left behind".  All the regulations and standardized tests thrown at schools have to be administered by someone.  Teachers are busy teaching, so you get a ton of support staff and administrators.

Dont blame the schools, they are trying.  They just want to teach the kids.  They aren't doing it for money or glamour.
 
2013-03-02 02:50:17 PM  

studs up: Crewmannumber6: We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you
It's exclusionary?
Is your argument that we should continue to expect crap results from our educational system because jello? Parents really don't expect the teachers to "raise" our children. We expect them to teach basic skills. We also expect that they do that without leeching the public trust and wasting our treasure on cronyism, protection rackets and incompetence. Is THAT too much too ask?
I think so in this era.
We don't want teachers to raise our kids moran. Get a brian....


No, the educational system is a resource to be taken advantage of. If the children/parents choose to disregard that resource it is not the schools fault. If parents don't raise their kids to sit down, shut up and pay attention when teacher is speaking, then we can't blame the schools when the kids can't read good or do other stuff good either.
 
2013-03-02 02:52:55 PM  

Hagenhatesyouall: DrZiffle: studs up: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Only if you keep your red herrings in the fridge.

It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative Pissed off parents support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education educators.

FFTBSFY


Find a citation for that grotesque generalization and share it. Teacher bashing and "unions are corrupt and unAmerican" is a false consciousness that contribute nothing to the conversation.
 
2013-03-02 02:54:42 PM  

BMFPitt: Fizpez: So (like everyone else) we had our budget slashed every year for the past 5 years.  In the past teachers had a "duty" period where you would monitor a lunch or a study hall.  We used our math and science teachers to tutor kids who had failed the state graduation (OGT) test - we had (/BoratOn "Great Success" /Boratoff) with the program.

When the cuts finally became too deep we did what most schools did - we let a bunch of teachers go, hired untrained "mothers" to babysit the studyhalls and lunch and had the remaining teachers teach an extra period during that time.  In and of themselves none of these things is a crime against humanity but the results were fairly predictable:

The lunches and study halls are bigger discipline problems as the students figured out the babysitters had no real power.
The kids that failed the OGT arent getting any additional help.
The remaining staff is more worn out and less connected since you basically never leave your room during the day.

And even if you ignore all of those other points, by this studies measure our school is now "worse" because we have more "non teachers" than we had before - and all because of the cuts made by the very same people who LOVE studies like this.

If firing competent teachers and hiring babysitters was your solution to budget cuts that may or may not have actually happened, then you're a poster child for why they are right.


It wasn't MY solution to anything - the state blows a HUGE whole in your budget by slashing funding so they can say "lookie lookie, balanced budget!"  The school districts are left to cope best they can.

And here's a little fact you may want to remember:  Schools are not allowed to run deficits (at least in Ohio) unless they want to be taken over by the state and have their programs burned to the ground.

When sports are already pay to play, when you've cut all those nice "elective" classes that tend to turn out well rounded students, when the building is being "maintained" by less than 1/2 the people it really takes, when you've already frozen salaries and increased employee payments for everything including health care about as high as you can go - the last desperate cuts are to teachers, so you overload your classrooms to the state maximum and hire babysitters for lunch.  Yes, that's what you do because there are no more moves to make.  But I'm sure you've got all the answers.
 
2013-03-02 02:58:42 PM  
DrZiffle:

It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education.


A red herring can be true or false on its face, but it isn't really the root cause. The point of it is misdirection.  In this case it seems like you are trying to take the attention off of efficient spending, which everyone should be for, especially teachers, and turn it into a partisan issue of funding.

The problem is that if you don't manage your spending efficiently, it doesn't matter how much money we put into education, it won't make any significant difference.  The money will just get eaten up by bureaucracy.

The part about Conservatives supporting vouchers and undermining unions is generally true but is not absolute.  By the way, the two teacher's unions that I have had the pleasure of dealing with have been blunt about saying they work towards the interests of their members.  It isn't their job to look out for the kids.  Which is true and I don't hold that against them.  They only time they are for the children is when the interests of the teachers and children coincide.
 
2013-03-02 03:03:51 PM  

DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Teachers unions aren't about improving education anymore, if they ever were. They exist to block merit-based promotions and fight for benefits packages that help bankrupt cities and states. Vouchers for private schools don't affect Johnny's ability to learn math from an incompetent teacher in a public schoo

How about paying a decent wage? And don't give me that "teachers get the summer off bullshiat." Pay a living wage and Johnny's teacher might do better.

Classrooms are overcrowded, and teachers are overworked because of the right's litany of "no taxes no taxes!"
Conservative republicans promote creationism and climate-change denial. No child left behind undermines teaching in favor of testing and outcomes assessments that come out of corporate culture.

And "Johnny's incompetent teacher" is a red herring, a hasty generalization, and a half dozen other logical fallacies.


Just because they're not earning what the unions want them to earn, doesn't mean they're not getting a living wage. The lowest starting pay for a teacher is more than I make, and I do well enough. If classrooms are overcrowded, private schools lessen the workload on public school teachers. Only a fraction of republicans promote creationism, they just happen to be vocal about it. I've yet to hear about climate change being an education issue. No child left behind was bi-partisan. "Johnny's incompetent teacher" isn't a red herring, it's the result of those same unions who you're determined to believe are interested in how well children learn.
 
2013-03-02 03:05:01 PM  

jeffowl: DrZiffle:

It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education.

A red herring can be true or false on its face, but it isn't really the root cause. The point of it is misdirection.  In this case it seems like you are trying to take the attention off of efficient spending, which everyone should be for, especially teachers, and turn it into a partisan issue of funding.

The problem is that if you don't manage your spending efficiently, it doesn't matter how much money we put into education, it won't make any significant difference.  The money will just get eaten up by bureaucracy.

The part about Conservatives supporting vouchers and undermining unions is generally true but is not absolute.  By the way, the two teacher's unions that I have had the pleasure of dealing with have been blunt about saying they work towards the interests of their members.  It isn't their job to look out for the kids.  Which is true and I don't hold that against them.  They only time they are for the children is when the interests of the teachers and children coincide.


Thanks for the thoughtful argument, but I would agree with Fizpez above that efficient spending is not the point either--it's budget cutting without thinking of the consequences (unintended or not). The school systems in my area have had deep budget cuts every year for a decade now. Staunton (Virginia) schools will lose 8 teachers next year. They lost nine positions this school year.

The result is not efficiency; it's overcrowded classes, overworked teachers, and most importantly, neglected students.
 
2013-03-02 03:08:16 PM  
Leevis: If classrooms are overcrowded, private schools lessen the workload on public school teachers.

No. Private schools provide good education for those who can afford it. They are not in any way a boon to public schools.
 
2013-03-02 03:34:12 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: WhackingDay: I bet you can chart the decline of American education on a simple graph showing the ratio of teachers to administrators. I honestly do not understand the need for so many of them. And it's even worse in higher eduction.

/dnrtfa

In higher ed it's being driven by simple consumerism.  Students today expect levels of service vastly beyond what college students used to.

Don't have a fully staffed, state of the art athletic center?  Students will go someplace else
Don't have a fully staffed physical and mental health department?[1]  Students will go someplace else
Don't have a dedicated computer repair department along with both wired and wireless access everywhere?  Students will go someplace else


Complete BS.  Except for the children of the 1%, that vast majority of parents and their students consider cost as the major factor.  In fact I have never met a student or parent who thinks differently.  Given that college costs have outrun inflation for something like 40 years in a row now, this should come as no surprise.  There are many reasons why college costs have increased but a demand for better dorms is not one of them.

One of the biggest factors has to do with how college presidents are evaluated by their board of trustees.  With no bottom line profits to measure, presidents are usually evaluated on the changing value of the assets of the college itself, i.e. the endowment and facilities.  An easy way to enhance the bottom line is by building new buildings and/or renovating existing ones

 Add into this the college having to handle helicopter parents- having the folks at academic advising run interference for me with pissed off parents saves my sanity.

While unfortunate, this is a direct result of soaring college costs.  As costs skyrocket year after year, the people who really pay most of the bills have gradually taken a greater interest in what their money is buying.

[1] We've had inquiries if we have an inpatient treatment center to handle the mental health issues of their little snowflake.  Folks, if your kid needs constant inpatient treatment they shouldn't be at college.

And I've heard stories of professors taking off on four week book tours or endless research conferences or other boondoggles in the middle of the semester or colleges not providing enough slots for courses required for graduations, forcing students to go longer and pay more.  It's sad that money has increasingly been playing a larger role in higher education but colleges set the prices and this is the game they have chosen.
 
2013-03-02 03:38:53 PM  

randomjsa: Schools have long since lost the idea of teaching and are now more interested in becoming perpetuation machines.

We pay more for significantly worse results when it comes to education.


Why even bother with schools? You can learn anything from the Internet now.
 
2013-03-02 03:43:32 PM  

bmihura: Why even bother with schools? You can learn anything from the Internet now.


Structure.  And history.  And a sense of forward motion when engaged in learning.  History especially.  The 1% want NOTHING more than for the serfs to forget their history.
 
2013-03-02 03:50:03 PM  

dv-ous: Paduke: As a special ed teacher, I sometimes find myself in comical situations where there are 4 or 5 adults in a room with 28 kids at a time. The gen ed teacher and I are running around like crazy people and are being evaluated by school administrators, special ed coordinators, reading coaches, etc. Kids are pretty used to random people in the back of the room writing in notebooks and IPads and wasting everyone's time.

On the flipside, as a special ed teacher in my district, you'd be pretty used to 4 or 5 adults in a room with <20 kids, getting (as much as possible) individualized assistance from classroom aides.

On the whole, we have about 2 aides for every three teachers. Throw other support staff (lunchroom people, janitors, secretaries, etc.,) we DEFINITELY have more nonteachers than teachers. In the military, they call it the tooth-to-tail ratio.

/IT guy
//Technically also a classroom aide.


That's nothing. out E.D. program has nine adults for eight students. And they still have to call the police when one starts to run away because we can't grab them without risking a lawsuit.
 
2013-03-02 03:54:19 PM  

DrZiffle: studs up: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Only if you keep your red herrings in the fridge.

It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education.


A red herring can't be true? Moran. Those union teachers haven't helped you at all.
 
2013-03-02 03:57:27 PM  

Crewmannumber6: studs up: Crewmannumber6: We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you
It's exclusionary?
Is your argument that we should continue to expect crap results from our educational system because jello? Parents really don't expect the teachers to "raise" our children. We expect them to teach basic skills. We also expect that they do that without leeching the public trust and wasting our treasure on cronyism, protection rackets and incompetence. Is THAT too much too ask?
I think so in this era.
We don't want teachers to raise our kids moran. Get a brian....

No, the educational system is a resource to be taken advantage of. If the children/parents choose to disregard that resource it is not the schools fault. If parents don't raise their kids to sit down, shut up and pay attention when teacher is speaking, then we can't blame the schools when the kids can't read good or do other stuff good either.


wow
 
2013-03-02 04:03:31 PM  
For those of you who have turned to vehemently arguing about the money football that is now the focus of education, you may want to reflect upon the fact that - as far as can be ascertained - whenever something becomes primarily about money, what it's supposed to be about become a tertiary concern at best.  Shoveling every single thing we do into the maw of our favorite, dime store tin god, money, so far - has been the problem.  Education, medicine, governance.  All obliterated under the sh*tstorm of these precious debt notes we have to keep moving around, hopefully toward us, and left useless and cowering at god money's feet.  Education isn't about education.  Or children, or their future, or well being or excellence.  It's about who gets to put what part of the dwindling budget into the trunk of their car.  And until we do something about that, the rest of this is the textbook definition of moot.
 
2013-03-02 04:21:00 PM  

bunner: For those of you who have turned to vehemently arguing about the money football that is now the focus of education, you may want to reflect upon the fact that - as far as can be ascertained - whenever something becomes primarily about money, what it's supposed to be about become a tertiary concern at best.  Shoveling every single thing we do into the maw of our favorite, dime store tin god, money, so far - has been the problem.  Education, medicine, governance.  All obliterated under the sh*tstorm of these precious debt notes we have to keep moving around, hopefully toward us, and left useless and cowering at god money's feet.  Education isn't about education.  Or children, or their future, or well being or excellence.  It's about who gets to put what part of the dwindling budget into the trunk of their car.  And until we do something about that, the rest of this is the textbook definition of moot.


this!!!
 
2013-03-02 04:37:04 PM  
I've always liked Germany's school model. At 14 they take an aptitude test; that test determines if they go on to college, or to a trade school or if they get Das Boot.

I also feel that; we should let troublesome/disruptive children remove themselves from the system. By removing those that don't want an education; you free up resources for those that do. It's kind of harsh; but, it would be their choice. Plus, no pubic assistance, ever, for anyone who doesn't graduate high school or get their G.E.D
 
2013-03-02 05:02:14 PM  

DrZiffle: studs up: DrZiffle: leevis: DrZiffle: Conservatives undermine public education for decades, and then they're shocked, SHOCKED that public education is broken.

0/10

It's politicians from both sides that have screwed the system up. Some of them have been more concerned about slashing the budget, some of them have more concerned about turning it into a political indoctrination center.

Not a troll. Conservatives consistently support vouchers for private schools and attempt to break teachers unions. Keep you false equivalences to yourself.

Only if you keep your red herrings in the fridge.

It's only a red herring if it isn't true.

Conservative support the voucher system and undermine unions. These actions are not in the best interests of public education.


See, first you state a fact, then you state an opinion as if it were also fact.  That my friend is serious cognitive dissonance.

It's also the point you seem to be missing.
 
2013-03-02 05:20:44 PM  

Resident Muslim: I'm not sure what you guys are objecting to.

Society needs its oil-change specialists and its NFL players.


You forgot gold-diggers.
 
2013-03-02 05:26:55 PM  

bmihura: randomjsa: Schools have long since lost the idea of teaching and are now more interested in becoming perpetuation machines.

We pay more for significantly worse results when it comes to education.

Why even bother with schools? You can learn anything from the Internet now.


Learning alone, one misses out on the glow of superiority that comes with watching classmates make mistakes.  It can lead to low self-esteem if the only mistakes you see are your own.
 
2013-03-02 05:27:26 PM  

iheartscotch: I've always liked Germany's school model. At 14 they take an aptitude test; that test determines if they go on to college, or to a trade school or if they get Das Boot.

I also feel that; we should let troublesome/disruptive children remove themselves from the system. By removing those that don't want an education; you free up resources for those that do. It's kind of harsh; but, it would be their choice. Plus, no pubic assistance, ever, for anyone who doesn't graduate high school or get their G.E.D


I think the Europeans appreciate trade skills a lot more than we do here in the U.S., which is a damn shame.
 
2013-03-02 05:36:44 PM  

studs up: Crewmannumber6: studs up: Crewmannumber6: We could focus on more important things if you farkin people would actually raise your kids instead of expecting the schools to do it for you
It's exclusionary?
Is your argument that we should continue to expect crap results from our educational system because jello? Parents really don't expect the teachers to "raise" our children. We expect them to teach basic skills. We also expect that they do that without leeching the public trust and wasting our treasure on cronyism, protection rackets and incompetence. Is THAT too much too ask?
I think so in this era.
We don't want teachers to raise our kids moran. Get a brian....

No, the educational system is a resource to be taken advantage of. If the children/parents choose to disregard that resource it is not the schools fault. If parents don't raise their kids to sit down, shut up and pay attention when teacher is speaking, then we can't blame the schools when the kids can't read good or do other stuff good either.

wow


While I'm somewhat ashamed to admit knowing this, I'm fairly certain he was quoting Zoolander.
 
2013-03-02 05:37:34 PM  
When I was in high school ten years ago*, it was the coaches that were the history "teachers".
During this time, a multimillion dollar "entertainment complex" was built to football stadium. Of course, on the other side of the street is a megachurch.

My town deserves its fate.


(Ouch.  Was it really over ten years ago?)
 
2013-03-02 06:08:46 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: When I was in high school ten years ago*, it was the coaches that were the history "teachers".
During this time, a multimillion dollar "entertainment complex" was built to football stadium. Of course, on the other side of the street is a megachurch.

My town deserves its fate.


(Ouch.  Was it really over ten years ago?)


Don't feel bad, my 20th reunion is coming up in a few months. We didn't have a big football stadium or megachurch, though. No football team, the one church in town was pretty small. My school was surrounded by a handful of houses, a sheep farm, and corn fields.
 
2013-03-02 07:14:19 PM  
In the District, there are 13 students for every teacher, but only 10 students for every nonclassroom employee, the study says.

 Absolutely and in money terms DC pays more per student than any state in the US and yet is next to last when it comes to educating them.  You always know when your around a bunch of DC teachers by the rumble of the ground and super wide women with butts so big that they make Rosie O'donnell look like a super model.

The teachers can't teach, but they sure can run their mouths,
 
2013-03-02 07:43:02 PM  

iheartscotch: I've always liked Germany's school model. At 14 they take an aptitude test; that test determines if they go on to college, or to a trade school or if they get Das Boot.


They get a submarine? That would be sweet.
 
2013-03-02 08:37:43 PM  

bunner: bmihura: Why even bother with schools? You can learn anything from the Internet now.

Structure.  And history.  And a sense of forward motion when engaged in learning.  History especially.  The 1% want NOTHING more than for the serfs to forget their history.


That is a good point, especially the central bank. I'll bet it's not even mentioned in history books, since all three former central banks nearly took out the entire nation.

The fourth and current central bank, or the "Federal Reserve", is about to take out the nation again because we cannot learn from history.
 
2013-03-03 07:12:31 AM  

Fizpez: It wasn't MY solution to anything - the state blows a HUGE whole in your budget by slashing funding so they can say "lookie lookie, balanced budget!"  The school districts are left to cope best they can.


So you seem unfamiliar with the concept of the indefinite "you."

And here's a little fact you may want to remember:  Schools are not allowed to run deficits (at least in Ohio) unless they want to be taken over by the state and have their programs burned to the ground.

Are you suggesting it should be any other way?

When sports are already pay to play, when you've cut all those nice "elective" classes that tend to turn out well rounded students, when the building is being "maintained" by less than 1/2 the people it really takes, when you've already frozen salaries and increased employee payments for everything including health care about as high as you can go - the last desperate cuts are to teachers, so you overload your classrooms to the state maximum and hire babysitters for lunch.  Yes, that's what you do because there are no more moves to make.  But I'm sure you've got all the answers.

My answer that either your story is likely incomplete, or if it isn't then it is the first example of such a thing happening in modern times.  Every year our district talks about draconian cuts.  These "cuts" are consistent with the slowly declining student population and are actually increases in per-student spending even in real dollars.
 
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