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(Detroit Free Press)   Detroit to be placed under emergency financial manager, Omni Consumer Products expected to bid   (freep.com) divider line 269
    More: Interesting, financial adviser, Detroit, emergency financial manager, Detroit Police Department, Rick Snyder, Wayne State University, President Pro Tem  
•       •       •

4585 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Mar 2013 at 3:28 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



269 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-03-02 12:16:33 AM  
I just wanted to mention that some pithy observation made by some guy named Godwin years ago, which led to a witty remark, isn't actually a law.  It's just a witty remark.  Go to your corners, rinse, spit, wait for the bell.
 
2013-03-02 12:30:43 AM  
Snyder's dream, nearly a reality:
 
2013-03-02 12:38:10 AM  

How Snyder really wants remake Detroit Delta City's government:

 upload.wikimedia.org


/coming to a city near you.
 
2013-03-02 01:26:44 AM  
What Detroit really needs is some political competition. It doesn't have to be Republicans vs. Democrats, though that would be the most obvious avenue - frankly, intraparty conflicts among Democrats in Detroit would probably do in a pinch. No matter how it happens, Detroit needs at least two powerful, vested, interested groups that are at every bit as interested in and capable of keeping each other accountable as they are in controlling Detroit. The only way that happens is if the existing Detroit power structure is severely handicapped - the Emergency Manager could help. "Nuking" the City Council from orbit would do wonders, especially if there was some jail time attached.

On the other hand, the Emergency Manager is probably going to just redirect all of the money currently spent on corruption and graft into the hands of the bankers that financed all of the loans that made that corruption and graft possible, which means the people of Detroit will be suffering under another couple decades of poorly funded services and obscene tax rates. Frankly, this is one situation where a bankruptcy would probably be worthwhile - it'll take  generations to pay that muni debt off otherwise, and it's not like there's much Detroit left to cover it anyhow. Whether anyone will actually allow Detroit to declare bankruptcy is a different issue.

As for the whole Republican/Democrat divide, the Democratic Party is the party of the cities. Consequently, when a large city gets corrupt, it's probably going to get corrupt under a Democratic administration because that's where Democrats live. You don't hear about Republican municipal corruption because, when it happens (and it does), it's usually small potatoes - maybe a small town where the sheriff, judge and mayor are all in each other's pockets, where speed traps are numerous, drug forfeiture laws are applied indiscriminately against visitors, that sort of thing. Think rural Texas or Florida. Individually, few of those stories are large enough to draw the sort of attention that Detroit or New Orleans draws. Collectively, I guarantee you that the stench of low-life Republican kleptocrats is every bit the equal of their Democratic counterparts.
 
2013-03-02 06:14:52 AM  
Not a single post in this thread addresses the most pressing issue of all: how much Robocop 3 sucked ass.
 
2013-03-02 09:08:16 AM  

meyerkev: blue_2501: [i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

What is that graph trying to tell us?


Sorry, should have posted the news link:

With Detroit under an Emergency Manager, half of Michigan blacks will have no elected local govt

i463.photobucket.com

Also, TRMS video on this situation is good stuff.

/tried submitting this to Fark, but Fark modmins don't care about black people
//either that or just an intense hatred of all things Rachel Maddow
 
2013-03-02 09:24:29 AM  

Vectron: Detroit needs to be resettled by competent people and the native uprising must be put down. Do we have the will to do what needs to be done? .

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x545]


Dude, take your racist bullshiat and go back to Stormfront.
 
2013-03-02 10:24:55 AM  

blue_2501: meyerkev: blue_2501: [i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

What is that graph trying to tell us?

Sorry, should have posted the news link:

With Detroit under an Emergency Manager, half of Michigan blacks will have no elected local govt

[i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

Also, TRMS video on this situation is good stuff.

/tried submitting this to Fark, but Fark modmins don't care about black people
//either that or just an intense hatred of all things Rachel Maddow


Wrong. The elected local government will still be there; it simply won't have any power over the pursestrings. Elections will be held, speeches will be made (cf. Tom Wolfe's "Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers") and votes will be tallied. The difference will be that the mayor and the council, having failed to exercise financial powers responsibly (and this is a problem with every council and mayor for the last 40 years), will have no power to spend money or even to allocate it. This is how receivership works.

If the city were in bankruptcy, it would have an unelected receiver appointed by the court, with much the same powers as the EFM. The EFM is simply a state-appointed receiver. Would any of you care to explain how one receiver is evil and the other is just peachy keen?
 
2013-03-02 10:31:20 AM  

LibertyHiller: blue_2501: meyerkev: blue_2501: [i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

What is that graph trying to tell us?

Sorry, should have posted the news link:

With Detroit under an Emergency Manager, half of Michigan blacks will have no elected local govt

[i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

Also, TRMS video on this situation is good stuff.

/tried submitting this to Fark, but Fark modmins don't care about black people
//either that or just an intense hatred of all things Rachel Maddow

Wrong. The elected local government will still be there; it simply won't have any power over the pursestrings. Elections will be held, speeches will be made (cf. Tom Wolfe's "Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers") and votes will be tallied. The difference will be that the mayor and the council, having failed to exercise financial powers responsibly (and this is a problem with every council and mayor for the last 40 years), will have no power to spend money or even to allocate it. This is how receivership works.

If the city were in bankruptcy, it would have an unelected receiver appointed by the court, with much the same powers as the EFM. The EFM is simply a state-appointed receiver. Would any of you care to explain how one receiver is evil and the other is just peachy keen?


One can be appointed by your political enemies at any given time whenever they want to and the other can be appointed by a judge under a specific situation??

More or less that seems to be the complaint. As much as I agree that something needs to be done in Detroit (EFM? Sure I guess) the law that Snyder signed is flagrantly open to abuse and I can see why.
 
2013-03-02 11:23:55 AM  

LibertyHiller: If the city were in bankruptcy, it would have an unelected receiver appointed by the court, with much the same powers as the EFM. The EFM is simply a state-appointed receiver. Would any of you care to explain how one receiver is evil and the other is just peachy keen?


Because the EFM is being appointed by a partisan Republican Governor who (along with other recent Rust Belt Republican Governors) is using his power to force through Republican ideology on a population that has soundly rejected it.  The EFM's job is not to fix Detroit, it's to bust the unions and sell off Detroit's assets to the Governor's friends, just like they've done in other Michigan cities already.
 
2013-03-02 11:46:44 AM  

TwistedFark: LibertyHiller: blue_2501: meyerkev: blue_2501: [i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

What is that graph trying to tell us?

Sorry, should have posted the news link:

With Detroit under an Emergency Manager, half of Michigan blacks will have no elected local govt

[i463.photobucket.com image 600x481]

Also, TRMS video on this situation is good stuff.

/tried submitting this to Fark, but Fark modmins don't care about black people
//either that or just an intense hatred of all things Rachel Maddow

Wrong. The elected local government will still be there; it simply won't have any power over the pursestrings. Elections will be held, speeches will be made (cf. Tom Wolfe's "Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers") and votes will be tallied. The difference will be that the mayor and the council, having failed to exercise financial powers responsibly (and this is a problem with every council and mayor for the last 40 years), will have no power to spend money or even to allocate it. This is how receivership works.

If the city were in bankruptcy, it would have an unelected receiver appointed by the court, with much the same powers as the EFM. The EFM is simply a state-appointed receiver. Would any of you care to explain how one receiver is evil and the other is just peachy keen?

One can be appointed by your political enemies at any given time whenever they want to and the other can be appointed by a judge under a specific situation??


Not how it works; there has to be a pattern of financial insolvency, and there's a process for appointing the EFM. Yesterday's announcement was merely one step in a long process (if I read this right, Step 5 of 12).

More or less that seems to be the complaint. As much as I agree that something needs to be done in Detroit (EFM? Sure I guess) the law that Snyder signed is flagrantly open to abuse and I can see why.

Since you don't seem to understand the process, how can you say that you understand the law?

Mentat: LibertyHiller: Because the EFM is being appointed by a partisan Republican Governor who (along with other recent Rust Belt Republican Governors) is using his power to force through Republican ideology on a population that has soundly rejected it.  The EFM's job is not to fix Detroit, it's to bust the unions and sell off Detroit's assets to the Governor's friends, just like they've done in other Michigan cities already.


Mmmm... so you were OK with EFMs when Granholm was appointing them?

Do you mind listing which of Snyder's friends have profited, and where? Because the biggest asset sale I can think of in the case of an EFM would be Pontiac selling its water system to a county water authority.

Not to defend Snyder, but he's not terribly partisan when compared to Jace Bolger or Randy Richardville. Those are the guys who are pushing the ideology of reaction, far more than Snyder is.
 
2013-03-02 01:29:49 PM  
It was a rough place - the seediest dive on the wharf. Populated with every reject and cutthroat from Bombay to Calcutta. It's worse than Detroit.
 
2013-03-02 03:02:56 PM  

LibertyHiller: Mmmm... so you were OK with EFMs when Granholm was appointing them?


Not really, no.  I find the whole concept deplorable.  If the city votes on it, sure.  If it's a one-off situation, I could swallow it.  But the Republicans have proven time and again that they are too corrupt to have this kind of power.  It's used more to promote their ideology and destroy their enemies than to actually help the affected citizens.
 
2013-03-02 09:09:19 PM  

LibertyHiller: Since you don't seem to understand the process, how can you say that you understand the law?


Obviously (at least I thought so) I was being hyperbollic. The point is basically thus - This law and it's implementation is inherently anti-democratic (as in, completely against the concept of Democracy "big D").

I will give you a perfectly cromulent example of how this can be abused:

Snyder appoints EFM who as part of clearing Detroits debts starts to sell off assets. He sells the waterworks to nearby (republican) Macomb county for less than market price. No one gets to vote on this, certainly not the citizens of Detroit who actually own the waterworks.

The EFM law as it's written is a fantastic tool for the party in power to be able to loot struggling cities. It will certainly be used that way in the future (near or far) if left unopposed (again!).

Look I am actually not against the concept of a EFM, even though it doesn't have a good track record in Michigan or elsewhere in the nation (it actually fails far, far, far more often than succeeds). I like the idea of bypassing the city council and would rather the power go to the Mayor (who is elected, so there is representation of the city). The thing I really don't like is that there is no representation of the people being governed (the people who own the actual assets the EFM is overseeing).

If the law was changed so that the people elected the EFM, I think I would 100% support it (conceptually at least) and it would remove most of the major complaints about how it can be abused.
 
2013-03-03 12:46:45 AM  

TwistedFark: LibertyHiller: Since you don't seem to understand the process, how can you say that you understand the law?

Obviously (at least I thought so) I was being hyperbollic. The point is basically thus - This law and it's implementation is inherently anti-democratic (as in, completely against the concept of Democracy "big D").


If the mere appointment of a financial receiver is anti-democratic, then municipal bankruptcy is an equal affront, but I don't hear you crying about the loss of democracy in Stockton or San Bernardino.

I will give you a perfectly cromulent example of how this can be abused:

Snyder appoints EFM who as part of clearing Detroits debts starts to sell off assets. He sells the waterworks to nearby (republican) Macomb county for less than market price. No one gets to vote on this, certainly not the citizens of Detroit who actually own the waterworks.


Well, there really isn't a market for water systems, but in the name of playing along, I'll bite. Why would the EFM neglect his fiduciary duty by selling something for less than he could reasonably get?

(Fun fact: The voting patterns in the suburbs of Detroit aren't as easy to predict as you might think. Macomb County voted for Obama in 2012, by about 16,000 votes. His margin was even greater in Oakland County: 25,000 votes.)

(One other detail: the residents of Detroit do not own the water department; the corporate body known as "The City of Detroit" does. It's a subtle difference, but it's one that matters absolutely.)

The EFM law as it's written is a fantastic tool for the party in power to be able to loot struggling cities. It will certainly be used that way in the future (near or far) if left unopposed (again!).

The looting has been going on for 40 or 50 years; you're complaining about the bottom of the barrel. There isn't much left worth looting in Detroit, Flint or Pontiac.

Look I am actually not against the concept of a EFM, even though it doesn't have a good track record in Michigan or elsewhere in the nation (it actually fails far, far, far more often than succeeds). I like the idea of bypassing the city council and would rather the power go to the Mayor (who is elected, so there is representation of the city). The thing I really don't like is that there is no representation of the people being governed (the people who own the actual assets the EFM is overseeing).

If the law was changed so that the people elected the EFM, I think I would 100% support it (conceptually at least) and it would remove most of the major complaints about how it can be abused.


Having the EFM subject to election utterly defeats the purpose; one of the reasons for a receiver of any kind is to have decisions made without reference to politics, and strictly on the basis of "What makes fiscal sense?"

Mentat: LibertyHiller: Mmmm... so you were OK with EFMs when Granholm was appointing them?

Not really, no. I find the whole concept deplorable.  If the city votes on it, sure.  If it's a one-off situation, I could swallow it. But the Republicans have proven time and again that they are too corrupt to have this kind of power. It's used more to promote their ideology and destroy their enemies than to actually help the affected citizens.


Citation needed.
 
2013-03-03 01:52:49 AM  

LibertyHiller: TwistedFark: LibertyHiller: Since you don't seem to understand the process, how can you say that you understand the law?


<big snip>

You're really derping this one up hard.

Municipal bankrupcy is not the same as an EFM. No need to move the goalposts so hard, you'll throw out your back.

On Macomb County - again, not essential the argumental hypothetical situation.

On the difference between "citizens of detroit" vs. "The City of Detroit" - I don't even understand why you want to make the distinction. There is not a "subtle difference that matters absolutely." This like saying there is a difference "subtle that matters absolutely" between between the will of the people in regards to how they vote and the results of that voting. Also, it's completely immaterial to the argument I put forth... (I am starting to notice a pattern here...)

Finally you said -  "Having the EFM subject to election utterly defeats the purpose; one of the reasons for a receiver of any kind is to have decisions made without reference to politics, and strictly on the basis of "What makes fiscal sense?"

The short answer here is, "No it doesn't." Weither the appointment is made by poll, designation or lottery, the position is not one that runs for re-election. I posited an example that would directly address the biggest complaint against the EFM law. There are certainly others.

At the end of the day, the way the EFM law is written it puts the assets of the city in the hands of a non-elected official. Even in your municipal bankrupcy straw man, this isn't what generally happens (instead the muncipality still manages the assets, under order from the court).

Seriously, unless you're a dyed in the wool contrarian or on Snyders payroll, there isn't much to defend about the implementation of the EFM law. I consider myself fairly reasonable and more than willing to entertain the concept, but the implementation of it is really quite poor and fraught with possible corruption and limited oversight. It might even be a solution for the problem, but the way it functions is firmly against what I (and many many other people I should add) hold as the principles of a democracy.
 
2013-03-03 06:15:18 AM  
i1295.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-03 07:57:15 AM  

TwistedFark: LibertyHiller: TwistedFark: LibertyHiller: Since you don't seem to understand the process, how can you say that you understand the law?

<big snip>

You're really derping this one up hard.

Municipal bankrupcy is not the same as an EFM. No need to move the goalposts so hard, you'll throw out your back.


Both are forms of receivership. One is managed by the state. One is managed by a federal court. No goalposts moving here, except in your mind.

On Macomb County - again, not essential the argumental hypothetical situation.

Hey, it was your hypothetical.

On the difference between "citizens of detroit" vs. "The City of Detroit" - I don't even understand why you want to make the distinction. There is not a "subtle difference that matters absolutely." This like saying there is a difference "subtle that matters absolutely" between between the will of the people in regards to how they vote and the results of that voting. Also, it's completely immaterial to the argument I put forth... (I am starting to notice a pattern here...)

Your argument was that an EFM could dispose of the property belonging to the citizens of Detroit without a vote. As I pointed out, the water system belongs to the corporate entity "The City of Detroit." That's a different animal in the eyes of the law.

Finally you said -  "Having the EFM subject to election utterly defeats the purpose; one of the reasons for a receiver of any kind is to have decisions made without reference to politics, and strictly on the basis of "What makes fiscal sense?"

The short answer here is, "No it doesn't." Weither the appointment is made by poll, designation or lottery, the position is not one that runs for re-election. I posited an example that would directly address the biggest complaint against the EFM law. There are certainly others.

At the end of the day, the way the EFM law is written it puts the assets of the city in the hands of a non-elected official. Even in your municipal bankrupcy straw man, this isn't what generally happens (instead the muncipality still manages the assets, under order from the court).

Seriously, unless you're a dyed in the wool contrarian or on Snyders payroll, there isn't much to defend about the implementation of the EFM law. I consider myself fairly reasonable and more than willing to entertain the concept, but the implementation of it is really quite poor and fraught with possible corruption and l ...


You haven't shown anything of the sort.
 
2013-03-04 10:47:14 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Hobodeluxe: Michigan is a dictatorship. they've overthrown duly elected representatives and installed corporate cronies to do away with collective bargaining agreements and crush unions allowing then to cut the pay of city workers.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 234x240]


Which resulted in a state that is now run by:
www.alec.org
...which might as well be OCP of the 21st Century, warts and all.

ShawnDoc: This man is happy to hear it.
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 533x300]


Looks like Mr. Snyder, the guy that holds the Governor's seat for Michigan.
 
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