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(NPR)   Republican college students spell doom for the GOP: Many are leaning Libertarian because the GOP is medieval on social issues, and even those who parrot Fox News talking points admit the party may have lost voters for the next 50 years   (npr.org) divider line 468
    More: Obvious, Fox News, GOP, Republican, talking points, lecture hall, political parties in the United States, students  
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3753 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Mar 2013 at 11:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-01 02:15:35 PM

tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?


You sound like you want to control what people do with their bodies.
 
2013-03-01 02:15:44 PM

Rwa2play: Crotchrocket Slim: dittybopper: So remind me again why I shouldn't vote libertarian?

It's a retarded ideology that doesn't take into account human nature?

*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*  We have a winnah!


You can say the same thing about communism.  We're social animals with a pack structure, whether we want to admit it or not.  Having a leader is a natural state of affairs.
 
2013-03-01 02:16:48 PM

palelizard: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

Why should anyone but the donor or the recipient have any say in the matter?  If you want to donate your organs upon death, you can.  If someone else wishes to sell a kidney to pay for college, they should be allowed to as well.

Or do you think everyone should be forced to donate their organs into a shared pool?


Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.
It's not like they're selling a car or a piece of jewelry to make rent or something, it's irreplaceable.
If you cannot see the problem in that, you may be a "libertarian"

Goes along with the "I got mines, fark you" mantra.
 
2013-03-01 02:17:07 PM

udhq: 50 years from now, everyone calling themselves "libertarians" right now will belong to the democratic party, and those of us who self-identify as liberals will belong to some kind of yet-to-emerge labor and environmental coalition.


I should explain;  the conventional wisdom in the media is that our country has taken a hard right turn in the last 40 years.  This is not the case.

What has happened is that the right has radicalized, and the media has realized that reporting on fringe positions is good for business. To site a recent example, the headline "Some Still Believe a Woman's Place is in the Home" gets more clicks than something like "Role of Women in Society Gradually Changing."  The recent article on the business model of the Daily Mail highlighted this dynamic quite well:  they make the same amount of ad revenue from a commenter who says "Right On!" that they do from a commenter who says "The entire premise of your article is objectively false and here's why."
 
2013-03-01 02:17:35 PM

palelizard: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

Why should anyone but the donor or the recipient have any say in the matter?  If you want to donate your organs upon death, you can.  If someone else wishes to sell a kidney to pay for college, they should be allowed to as well.

Or do you think everyone should be forced to donate their organs into a shared pool?


exactly. Very few people are just donating organs while they are alive. Allowing people to sell organs will almost assuredly increase the number of organs available on the market. You want to continue anatomical gifts upon death, fine. I don't see why a person shouldn't be allowed to sell a kidney while they're alive.
 
2013-03-01 02:18:43 PM

skullkrusher: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

You sound like you want to control what people do with their bodies.


You sound like you believe that somehow, wealth makes you above others.

Republican, or libertarian?
 
2013-03-01 02:19:26 PM

Rwa2play: Not just that: If someone wants to get their life back together and being a productive member of society again, that attitude basically wastes an opportunity to do so.


Or, what is happening in my house, as we speak, for the last four months and for the foreseeable future.

Mrs. Nuisance has a friend.  Friend is not terribly well educated, but can hold down a job and pay rent and put a little money in the bank as a bus driver for a private transportation service.  Works long hours to make up for the low pay.  One night after a late run, she is leaving the lot and gets mugged.  She surrenders her purse without resistance, yet mugger feels the need to crack her on the head with the butt of his pistol, as a parting gift.

  Employer will not allow her to drive without a full medical check.  (Fair enough, don't want her to have a cerebral hemorrhage while driving.)  CAT scan reveals a mass at the base of her brain.  Further tests ensue: she has a benign tumor the size of a clementine surrounding her brain stem.

  Attempts are made to remove it.  Turns out the mass which was expected to be soft and cheesy is hard, like wood, and cannot be extracted via needle, and taking it out physically is ruled out as far too risky.  She can aford none of this without her employer's insurance. Tumor continues to grow, albeit very slowly, and manifests itself in impaired vision and cognitive skills.  She cannot work, and is reduced to Disability and no insurance.

  She moves in with her aunt (immediate family are far away, and unable to help, as they are in worse shape than she, in some ways) and helps take care of Aunt's house in return for a room.  This goes on for a few years.  Uncle dies.  Aunt starts fading from Alzheimer's.  Aunt's children decide that Aunt must be moved to an ongoing care facility.  Since the house is her main asset, it must be sold to allow this, to cause the impoverishment that will allow for Medicaid.  Friend is given two weeks to vacate premises.

  Having nowhere else to go, she moves in with us.  She has no money, and cannot pay rent (although we will be accepting a token amount from her in the coming months).  She's increased our food bill and utilities.  Her cognitive difficulties are becoming more obvious as she has trouble completing simple tasks, and gets confused sometimes ("Dirty dishes into cabinet, rather than dishwasher" sort of things)  It is becoming increasingly clear that she will be unable to care for herself alone.  Nearby Section 8 housing has a nearly year-long waiting list.  It's looking like she will be here permanently, which has already put a serious crimp in the marital lifestyle.

  So, I ask you, my Libertarian friends, what the hell do "poor decisions" have to do with any of this?  Our friend's illness is not her fault, her Aun't illness is not that poor woman's fault, being forced into the poorhouse is not her or her Aunt's fault, the unavailability of suitable housing isn't her fault, our being sympathetic to a friend's plight isn't our fault, the fact that I'm about to be furloughed and lose 20% of my pay is not my fault...

  Everyone in this story is being screwed, well and proper.

  WTF is your system going to do about it?  None of us did a thing wrong, but you'd leave us all in the goddam street.

  Up yours, you heartless, entitled buttmunches.  I've never met a one of you who wasn't a product of middle-class entitlement in the first place.

  I look forward to hearing of your enlightenment when your farking "benign" brain tumor shows up.
 
2013-03-01 02:19:32 PM

tripleseven: Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.


whew, good thing you're here making that decision for them, Generalissimo. Shall I put "prevent the less fortunate from donating organs for free" on your docket as well?
 
2013-03-01 02:20:39 PM

Petey4335: thisisyourbrainonFark: How can anyone be conservative, particularly in college? I was farking and taking bong hits and other drugs. Man, college was fun.

Because some of us worked and commuted while going to college and didn't have that much time to do those sorts of things.

Some grow up and realize there is more than 'my interests' in the world and some become paranoid and cranky.  I have almost nothing in common with a friend of mine who went to college and worked when I did because he hasn't grown up yet.  He turned into a teatard and me into a dirty lib.


I know a libertarian who dropped out of college because he was playing too much WoW.  Daddy moneybags was paying his rent, he wasn't working (had hardly ever worked, actually) and he still couldn't muster the bootstrappiness to make it to class more than once every two weeks.  And this guy still had the nerve to suggest that rich people shouldn't be taxed because they've worked hard and scrimped and saved to get where they are.

You want a libertarian?  That's a libertarian in a nutshell.

/no longer friends with that asshole
 
2013-03-01 02:21:23 PM
skullkrusher:

exactly. Very few people are just donating organs while they are alive.

For some pretty good reasons, too.  Like, I may need it?  Hell, after I am dead, sure take what you need and toss it into the pool where it will be used based upon need.
 
2013-03-01 02:22:40 PM

partisan222: hubiestubert: The sad fact is, many Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke pot

THIS. And I will also add: Libertarians are just Republicans who want to have sex.


So...better than Republicans.
 
2013-03-01 02:23:18 PM

tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

You sound like you want to control what people do with their bodies.

You sound like you believe that somehow, wealth makes you above others.

Republican, or libertarian?


not sure why you're taking this sort of tone. No one is being an intolerable assfark to you, why are you being an intolerable assfark to others?

See, anyone can make a donation of an organ while they're alive. Thing is, few do unless they know the person who needs it because it is quite an ordeal. If we allow people to sell organs while they're alive, we increase the pool of available organs thereby saving MORE lives. That's only a side benefit, however. The main benefit is not being an authoritarian douche who likes to lord over people under the guise of their best interests.
 
2013-03-01 02:24:37 PM

tripleseven: skullkrusher:

exactly. Very few people are just donating organs while they are alive.

For some pretty good reasons, too.  Like, I may need it?  Hell, after I am dead, sure take what you need and toss it into the pool where it will be used based upon need.


I am sure the person who could really use that $50k is over the moon that you care so much for them that you, a stranger, is willing to tell them what they may do with their own bodies.
 
2013-03-01 02:25:23 PM

tripleseven: Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.
It's not like they're selling a car or a piece of jewelry to make rent or something, it's irreplaceable.
If you cannot see the problem in that, you may be a "libertarian"

Goes along with the "I got mines, fark you" mantra.


So if they don't 'need' the money, it'd be okay?  Being poor, or less fortunate, doesn't make you any better than being rich.  It's their decision.  I hope they get a good market rate, and can use the seed money to change their life.  I'll note you want to keep them poor rather than provide another method to advance.  The purity of the downtrodden must be preserved!
 
2013-03-01 02:25:56 PM

slayer199: Wadded Beef: "F-you, I got mine" is social liberalism?

You're confused between social liberalism and fiscal conservatism.

Social liberalism means you can do whatever you'd like so long as you don't infringe on someone else's rights to do whatever they'd like.  Who you sleep with, who you marry, what drugs you like to do...is not a concern of a libertarian.  An individual is ultimately responsible for the choices they make, NOT the government.  That also extends to the poor choices as well.  If an individual makes poor life choices, that's on them...not on other citizens vis a vis the government bailing them out (and it also applies to corporations).

Fiscal conservatism relates to government spending.  Libertarians recognize the need for government when it comes to things like infrastructure, defense (though FAR smaller than it is now), and enforcement of laws/contracts.  The government is FAR too large, inefficient, and yes...we have a spending problem.

Your "Fark you, I got mine" is nothing more than an appeal to emotion.  Libertarians believe that people should be able to reap the rewards of success and if they so choose, donate their time or money to any cause they'd like.  Being are forced to do so at gunpoint (government) that is something libertarians would object to.  There will always be poor people but pretending that more government or government redistribution of wealth leads to prosperity is naive.  There's been a War on Poverty going on for 80 years and it hasn't made a dent in the average 14-15% that live in poverty.  In short, dramatically reduce spending and taxes across the board.


I don't have the facts on me, but my guess is that you are very, very, very wrong on the bolded point above.
 
2013-03-01 02:26:32 PM

The Name: Petey4335: thisisyourbrainonFark: How can anyone be conservative, particularly in college? I was farking and taking bong hits and other drugs. Man, college was fun.

Because some of us worked and commuted while going to college and didn't have that much time to do those sorts of things.

Some grow up and realize there is more than 'my interests' in the world and some become paranoid and cranky.  I have almost nothing in common with a friend of mine who went to college and worked when I did because he hasn't grown up yet.  He turned into a teatard and me into a dirty lib.

I know a libertarian who dropped out of college because he was playing too much WoW.  Daddy moneybags was paying his rent, he wasn't working (had hardly ever worked, actually) and he still couldn't muster the bootstrappiness to make it to class more than once every two weeks.  And this guy still had the nerve to suggest that rich people shouldn't be taxed because they've worked hard and scrimped and saved to get where they are.

You want a libertarian?  That's a libertarian in a nutshell.

/no longer friends with that asshole


As I said I was pretty much an anarcho-capitalist in college. I graduated with a 3.5 and worked part time during the year and fulltime in the summers. So much for that generalization, huh?
 
2013-03-01 02:27:24 PM
This is true.  The influence of Big Religion on the GOP is it's biggest albatross.  Young people are fleeing from religion because of its anachronistic views on sex, sexuality, women, etc., and so the political party that panders to Big Religion is going to see a similar exodus (pardon the pun).
 
2013-03-01 02:29:48 PM
When the GOP stops believing in an economic policy that Marx himself supported, then they may get my vote. Oh wait, I like human beings, so they won't be for a while.

Seriously, I used to consider myself a college conservative, but then I realized that I was wrong.
 
2013-03-01 02:30:12 PM

skullkrusher: I am sure the person who could really use that $50k is over the moon that you care so much for them that you, a stranger, is willing to tell them what they may do with their own bodies.


OMG I laughed. Thanks for that. I luvs me some skullkrusher!
 
2013-03-01 02:31:36 PM

palelizard: The exploitation of the downtrodden must be preserved!


Seems about right.
 
2013-03-01 02:32:12 PM

Via Infinito: skullkrusher: I am sure the person who could really use that $50k is over the moon that you care so much for them that you, a stranger, is willing to tell them what they may do with their own bodies.

OMG I laughed. Thanks for that. I luvs me some skullkrusher!


mutual as always, m'lady
 
2013-03-01 02:32:14 PM

palelizard: tripleseven: Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.
It's not like they're selling a car or a piece of jewelry to make rent or something, it's irreplaceable.
If you cannot see the problem in that, you may be a "libertarian"

Goes along with the "I got mines, fark you" mantra.

So if they don't 'need' the money, it'd be okay?  Being poor, or less fortunate, doesn't make you any better than being rich.  It's their decision.  I hope they get a good market rate, and can use the seed money to change their life.  I'll note you want to keep them poor rather than provide another method to advance.  The purity of the downtrodden must be preserved!


Should I be able to sell myself to be killed for the amusement of a rich person so my children can live in relative comfort?  Is there not a legitimate social interest in government preventing such arrangements?
 
2013-03-01 02:32:47 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: "Libertarians" are a bunch of authoritarian corporatist gasbags who pay lipservice to social issues as a vote-getting strategy.


So they are politicians? Get outta here.
 
2013-03-01 02:33:35 PM

Petey4335: thisisyourbrainonFark: How can anyone be conservative, particularly in college? I was farking and taking bong hits and other drugs. Man, college was fun.

Because some of us worked and commuted while going to college and didn't have that much time to do those sorts of things.

Some grow up and realize there is more than 'my interests' in the world and some become paranoid and cranky.  I have almost nothing in common with a friend of mine who went to college and worked when I did because he hasn't grown up yet.  He turned into a teatard and me into a dirty lib.


Oh, I worked in college. And don't worry, I did enough partying for both of us. For a Viking raiding party, in fact.
 
2013-03-01 02:33:44 PM

skullkrusher: tripleseven: skullkrusher:

exactly. Very few people are just donating organs while they are alive.

For some pretty good reasons, too.  Like, I may need it?  Hell, after I am dead, sure take what you need and toss it into the pool where it will be used based upon need.

I am sure the person who could really use that $50k is over the moon that you care so much for them that you, a stranger, is willing to tell them what they may do with their own bodies.


We don't allow it because allowing the selling of organs opens some NASTY floodgates and a shiat-ton of unintended consequences.

If organs can be sold, people can be pressured to sell organs, even if they themselves don't want to. Whether it's a "Nice family you got there. It would be a *shame* if they all got killed, unless you wanted to sell a kidney, eh?" coercement, plain old kidnapping and organselling, or a crapton of other stuff. Yes, those things are illegal. So's murder.

By banning organ selling, it prevents *any* of those from occuring, because there's no profit in doing them, because the organs can't be sold.

Repo: The Genetic Opera is not a how-to book.
 
2013-03-01 02:34:06 PM

meat0918: Rwa2play: Crotchrocket Slim: dittybopper: So remind me again why I shouldn't vote libertarian?

It's a retarded ideology that doesn't take into account human nature?

*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*  We have a winnah!

You can say the same thing about communism.  We're social animals with a pack structure, whether we want to admit it or not.  Having a leader is a natural state of affairs.


Oh, of course!  For anyone to try to admit different would be to dismiss human nature as a whole.  Such things have a way of biting back quite hard!
 
2013-03-01 02:34:44 PM

Deucednuisance:
Mrs. Nuisance has a friend...



That sucks, man... Though, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Libertarian to get back to you.
Real world applications of their philosophy really isn't their forté.
 
m00
2013-03-01 02:35:42 PM

dittybopper: So remind me again why I shouldn't vote libertarian?


Because the Republican Party has claimed your vote, and you are a thief if you try to vote for whom you want rather than whom the Republican Party tells you.
 
2013-03-01 02:35:56 PM

udhq: palelizard: tripleseven: Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.
It's not like they're selling a car or a piece of jewelry to make rent or something, it's irreplaceable.
If you cannot see the problem in that, you may be a "libertarian"

Goes along with the "I got mines, fark you" mantra.

So if they don't 'need' the money, it'd be okay?  Being poor, or less fortunate, doesn't make you any better than being rich.  It's their decision.  I hope they get a good market rate, and can use the seed money to change their life.  I'll note you want to keep them poor rather than provide another method to advance.  The purity of the downtrodden must be preserved!

Should I be able to sell myself to be killed for the amusement of a rich person so my children can live in relative comfort?  Is there not a legitimate social interest in government preventing such arrangements?


similarly, a debate exists among the right anarchists about whether one should (or can philosophically even accomplish) selling oneself into slavery.
Rothbard says nay, more recent ones like Walter Block say yes.

/nay
 
2013-03-01 02:37:43 PM
it's fascinating watching the Republican party implode.
 
2013-03-01 02:37:49 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: slayer199: Ah, good to see all the Fark libs and conservatives hating on the LP.  Republicans hate us because of our social liberalism and Democrats hate us because of our fiscal conservatism.     Both sides do everything they can to exclude the LP (and the Green Party) from the process.  Why?  Fear.  A party that promotes social liberalism, fiscal conservatism, personal responsibility and smaller government will resonate with voters.

"Libertarians" are a bunch of authoritarian corporatist gasbags who pay lipservice to social issues as a vote-getting strategy.



Indeed... Libertarians oppose the initiation of force against others... You know, except for the idea of attempting to -force- libertarianism on them by claiming it's the only morally-valid means of government.

This is one of the best critiques of libertarianism that I've seen.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/marxism-of-the-right /

One of my favorite bits:

"Empirically, most people don't actually want absolute freedom, which is why democracies don't elect libertarian governments. Irony of ironies, people don't choose absolute freedom. But this refutes libertarianism by its own premise, as libertarianism defines the good as the freely chosen, yet people do not choose it. Paradoxically, people exercise their freedom not to be libertarians. "
 
2013-03-01 02:38:06 PM

Felgraf: skullkrusher: tripleseven: skullkrusher:

exactly. Very few people are just donating organs while they are alive.

For some pretty good reasons, too.  Like, I may need it?  Hell, after I am dead, sure take what you need and toss it into the pool where it will be used based upon need.

I am sure the person who could really use that $50k is over the moon that you care so much for them that you, a stranger, is willing to tell them what they may do with their own bodies.

We don't allow it because allowing the selling of organs opens some NASTY floodgates and a shiat-ton of unintended consequences.

If organs can be sold, people can be pressured to sell organs, even if they themselves don't want to. Whether it's a "Nice family you got there. It would be a *shame* if they all got killed, unless you wanted to sell a kidney, eh?" coercement, plain old kidnapping and organselling, or a crapton of other stuff. Yes, those things are illegal. So's murder.

By banning organ selling, it prevents *any* of those from occuring, because there's no profit in doing them, because the organs can't be sold.

Repo: The Genetic Opera is not a how-to book.


I suppose that danger does exist but how is it any more real than "Nice family you got there. It would be a shame if they got killed if you didn't whore yourself out for me/work in my factory for minimum wage/date my syphilitic cousin".

Besides, there IS a black market for organs. Making it a regulated white market would reduce the dangers, not increase them.
 
2013-03-01 02:38:42 PM

tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?


Yes. Yes she did.
 
2013-03-01 02:39:20 PM

udhq: Should I be able to sell myself to be killed for the amusement of a rich person so my children can live in relative comfort? Is there not a legitimate social interest in government preventing such arrangements?


There is a social interest, certainly.  But it's a matter of degree.  Letting someone sell an extra portion of their body (kidney, hand, length of colon, etc) for whatever reason is going to have significantly less detrimental impact than death pacts for money, could have a reasonably beneficial result (assuming those poor people didn't spend it all on hookers and blow), and leans towards allowing people to be responsible for themselves rather than controlling them.  We're rational people--we can draw a line to stop without carrying an idea out to the furthest flung conclusion.
 
2013-03-01 02:40:45 PM

technicolor-misfit: A Dark Evil Omen: slayer199: Ah, good to see all the Fark libs and conservatives hating on the LP.  Republicans hate us because of our social liberalism and Democrats hate us because of our fiscal conservatism.     Both sides do everything they can to exclude the LP (and the Green Party) from the process.  Why?  Fear.  A party that promotes social liberalism, fiscal conservatism, personal responsibility and smaller government will resonate with voters.

"Libertarians" are a bunch of authoritarian corporatist gasbags who pay lipservice to social issues as a vote-getting strategy.


Indeed... Libertarians oppose the initiation of force against others... You know, except for the idea of attempting to -force- libertarianism on them by claiming it's the only morally-valid means of government.

This is one of the best critiques of libertarianism that I've seen.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/marxism-of-the-right /

One of my favorite bits:

"Empirically, most people don't actually want absolute freedom, which is why democracies don't elect libertarian governments. Irony of ironies, people don't choose absolute freedom. But this refutes libertarianism by its own premise, as libertarianism defines the good as the freely chosen, yet people do not choose it. Paradoxically, people exercise their freedom not to be libertarians. "


another reason why the anarcho-capitalists are the ideologically pure ones. Giving people the freedom to choose their own governance. Free market for government, as it were. Terribly impractical but hey, there's a reason why most of us stop drawing Circle As on our Trapper Keepers sometime in middle school
 
2013-03-01 02:41:24 PM

Jackpot777: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

Yes. Yes she did.


do you actually think I am female or was that one of your misogynistic attempts at an insult?
 
2013-03-01 02:44:36 PM

skullkrusher: similarly, a debate exists among the right anarchists about whether one should (or can philosophically even accomplish) selling oneself into slavery.
Rothbard says nay, more recent ones like Walter Block say yes.

/nay


Philisophically, I would think you could.  By having the (anarchist) freedom to do as you will, you could theoretically remove your ability to do so, or more specifically, submit yourself to absolute control by another.

I mean, you shouldn't, but I think from a thought exercise perspective, you could.
 
m00
2013-03-01 02:45:50 PM

tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.


Anybody should be able to sell their organs. Why not? Don't people have ownership over their own bodies? I think do many people confuse permission with endorsement. If someone wants to hack off their own hand and eat it for dinner, I can't say I agree with that -- but what business is it of mine? I find it disturbing and offensive, but who am I to impose my judgement and tastes on another person?

I understand the point made a bit down-thread, that something is seriously wrong if we live in a society where people are so poor they are forced to sell their organs. But the solution isn't to make organ-selling illegal. The solution is to improve the economic situation so that people are not forced to sell their organs.
 
2013-03-01 02:47:27 PM

keylock71: Deucednuisance:
Mrs. Nuisance has a friend...


That sucks, man... Though, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Libertarian to get back to you.
Real world applications of their philosophy really isn't their forté.


Current example: foreign contaminants such as horse meat in European meat products, thanks to government food regulators. In a Libertarian world, such checks would be non-existent as, or they say, government just gets in the way of business (and it's business that has our well-being at heart because they wouldn't have an audience otherwise).
 
2013-03-01 02:48:34 PM

palelizard: We're rational people--we can draw a line to stop without carrying an idea out to the furthest flung conclusion.


Let's propose a non-extreme example.

Say I'm broke.  I decide to sell both kidneys to fund a whirlwind tour of all the orange countries on the map.
I'll spend the rest of my life on dialysis on the state's dime.  Should I be allowed to do it?
 
2013-03-01 02:49:50 PM

skullkrusher: Jackpot777: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

Yes. Yes she did.

do you actually think I am female or was that one of your misogynistic attempts at an insult?


It's close to a 50:50 choice so I tossed a coin. You seem awfully defensive about what you see as an insult.

Should we not toss coins now? Is that too outrageous for you?
 
2013-03-01 02:50:57 PM

thrasherrr: palelizard: We're rational people--we can draw a line to stop without carrying an idea out to the furthest flung conclusion.

Let's propose a non-extreme example.

Say I'm broke.  I decide to sell both kidneys to fund a whirlwind tour of all the orange countries on the map.
I'll spend the rest of my life on dialysis on the state's dime.  Should I be allowed to do it?


Given the state of our dialysis system, you'll only be a burden for a year or so.
 
2013-03-01 02:51:14 PM
Deucednuisance:   So, I ask you, my Libertarian friends, what the hell do "poor decisions" have to do with any of this?  Our friend's illness is not her fault, her Aun't illness is not that poor woman's fault, being forced into the poorhouse is not her or her Aunt's fault, the unavailability of suitable housing isn't her fault, our being sympathetic to a friend's plight isn't our fault, the fact that I'm about to be furloughed and lose 20% of my pay is not my fault...

Everyone in this story is being screwed, well and proper.

WTF is your system going to do about it?  None of us did a thing wrong, but you'd leave us all in the goddam street.

Up yours, you heartless, entitled buttmunches.  I've never met a one of you who wasn't a product of middle-class entitlement in the first place.

I look forward to hearing of your enlightenment when your farking "benign" brain tumor shows up.


Sorry to hear about your situation brah; I'm not exactly in a better place myself.  I'm just starting to pay back rent that's been overdue for 3 months because money's very tight.  I wouldn't wish that type of situation on anyone; sadly, that's exactly what those on the right (and yes, some on the left as well) continue to miss.  Then when they lose, they biatch and moan about how they lost but don't realize that the very people they ignored are the very people that made them lose.  You don't take care of them, they'll take care of you (and not in a nice way).  I wonder what the hoverround-riding tea tards would feel like if all of the government's benefits were taken away from them in a fit of Ayn Rand-esque pique.

More and more it seems that "Libertarianism" is a phrase meaning "forcing a square peg in a round hole and ignoring the consequences".
 
2013-03-01 02:51:41 PM

palelizard: skullkrusher: similarly, a debate exists among the right anarchists about whether one should (or can philosophically even accomplish) selling oneself into slavery.
Rothbard says nay, more recent ones like Walter Block say yes.

/nay

Philisophically, I would think you could.  By having the (anarchist) freedom to do as you will, you could theoretically remove your ability to do so, or more specifically, submit yourself to absolute control by another.

I mean, you shouldn't, but I think from a thought exercise perspective, you could.


IIRC, Rothbard argued against it saying that enslavement meant surrendering one's will to the slaveowner and the moment you no longer wanted to be a slave, your reclamation of your will made the contract null... or something.
 
2013-03-01 02:52:01 PM

palelizard: tripleseven: Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.
It's not like they're selling a car or a piece of jewelry to make rent or something, it's irreplaceable.
If you cannot see the problem in that, you may be a "libertarian"

Goes along with the "I got mines, fark you" mantra.

So if they don't 'need' the money, it'd be okay?  Being poor, or less fortunate, doesn't make you any better than being rich.  It's their decision.  I hope they get a good market rate, and can use the seed money to change their life.  I'll note you want to keep them poor rather than provide another method to advance.  The purity of the downtrodden must be preserved!



I don't want to put words in tripleseven's mouth, but I'd be willing to bet that he actually supports a social safety net that will help someone change their life WITHOUT forcing them to endanger it and endure a lifetime of medical problems as a result of unfortunate financial difficulties.

"How come that girl can't suck a dick for food money if she wants to? Come 'ere, baby... Daddy will help you outta your troubles! What's the problem? I'm just trying to help her!"
 
2013-03-01 02:52:17 PM

Weaver95: it's fascinating watching the Republican party implode.


Hey, the faster it happens (and the less damage resulting from it), the better of the country will be long-term.
 
2013-03-01 02:53:15 PM

Jackpot777: skullkrusher: Jackpot777: tripleseven: skullkrusher: tripleseven: Oh, yeah, I had another libertarian tell me that he 100% believed that "the poor" should be able to sell their organs.

and you presumably don't think people should be allowed to do this? Someone can volunteer to donate an organ but they cannot be compensated for it?

No, they should not, because it means the organ goes to the highest bidder.  Thereby skewing the recipients based on wealth.

Did you really need that explained to you?

Yes. Yes she did.

do you actually think I am female or was that one of your misogynistic attempts at an insult?

It's close to a 50:50 choice so I tossed a coin. You seem awfully defensive about what you see as an insult.

Should we not toss coins now? Is that too outrageous for you?


It was a question. See, I don't believe you thought there was any significant chance that I am female so makes one wonder why you'd use the feminine pronoun.
 
2013-03-01 02:53:45 PM

HellRaisingHoosier: FTFA: Sophomore Miranda Onnen says after graduation, fiscal realities will begin to take hold for her generation and priorities will shift. "We're also the ones who are going to have to pay for Obamacare," Onnen says. "A lot of people don't necessarily connect those things. They say, 'Oh, well, health care is great. I get to be on my parents' health-care plan until I'm 26.' Well, once you turn 27, you have to pay for that. And especially with the joblessness rates being what they are, I think that's going to hit kids our age pretty hard."


What does a sophomore at Ohio State University know about the financial situation of life? Nothing. Mommy and daddy or John Q. Public is paying for her way right now.

Guess what kid? I don't want to pay for your education, healthcare, protection or social services either over the course of your life, but I did, because I want to live in a 1st world society and not some 3rd world libertarian shiat-hole.


I'm a Junior in college, pay for my school, work for my healthcare, live on my own, have purchased my own means of protection and don't draw from any social services, and I'm a Libertarian but have always hated Republicans. There's a lot of people like me. I don't think you know what you're talking about
 
2013-03-01 02:54:56 PM

technicolor-misfit: palelizard: tripleseven: Buying an organ from someone because they "need the money" is also exploitative of the less fortunate.
It's not like they're selling a car or a piece of jewelry to make rent or something, it's irreplaceable.
If you cannot see the problem in that, you may be a "libertarian"

Goes along with the "I got mines, fark you" mantra.

So if they don't 'need' the money, it'd be okay?  Being poor, or less fortunate, doesn't make you any better than being rich.  It's their decision.  I hope they get a good market rate, and can use the seed money to change their life.  I'll note you want to keep them poor rather than provide another method to advance.  The purity of the downtrodden must be preserved!


I don't want to put words in tripleseven's mouth, but I'd be willing to bet that he actually supports a social safety net that will help someone change their life WITHOUT forcing them to endanger it and endure a lifetime of medical problems as a result of unfortunate financial difficulties.

"How come that girl can't suck a dick for food money if she wants to? Come 'ere, baby... Daddy will help you outta your troubles! What's the problem? I'm just trying to help her!"


Government so big that it cannot fit in your uterus but can certainly serve as a chastity belt when there's money involved.
 
2013-03-01 02:55:49 PM

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: HellRaisingHoosier: FTFA: Sophomore Miranda Onnen says after graduation, fiscal realities will begin to take hold for her generation and priorities will shift. "We're also the ones who are going to have to pay for Obamacare," Onnen says. "A lot of people don't necessarily connect those things. They say, 'Oh, well, health care is great. I get to be on my parents' health-care plan until I'm 26.' Well, once you turn 27, you have to pay for that. And especially with the joblessness rates being what they are, I think that's going to hit kids our age pretty hard."


What does a sophomore at Ohio State University know about the financial situation of life? Nothing. Mommy and daddy or John Q. Public is paying for her way right now.

Guess what kid? I don't want to pay for your education, healthcare, protection or social services either over the course of your life, but I did, because I want to live in a 1st world society and not some 3rd world libertarian shiat-hole.

I'm a Junior in college, pay for my school, work for my healthcare, live on my own, have purchased my own means of protection and don't draw from any social services, and I'm a Libertarian but have always hated Republicans. There's a lot of people like me. I don't think you know what you're talking about


are you studying at the University of Somalia? This is Fark, remember.
 
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