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(Today)   Not news: Christian school fires teacher for getting pregnant. WTF: Then offers a job to the guy that knocked her up   (lifeinc.today.com) divider line 269
    More: Dumbass, premarital sex, El Cajon, Holy Family, covenants, pregnancy, socioeconomic status, W.T.F.?, handbooks  
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13700 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Mar 2013 at 8:04 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-01 08:32:13 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: You seek out a job at a religious organization, you sign a employment contract, you play by their rules even if you don't like them.

It may suck, but she knew what she was getting into when she took the job.


yes but what's REALLY offensive is that these fine, morally upstanding folks then offered her job to the guy who got her pregnant in the first place.  that's all kinds of wrong.
 
2013-03-01 08:32:47 AM
Ah yes it's the old "women are sluts, men are pimps" mindset. Thanks Christians!
 
2013-03-01 08:34:46 AM
Tons of women have been fired under this but has a man ever been fired for having premarital sex? It's sexiest because men don't face the same consequences.
 
2013-03-01 08:35:59 AM

KawaiiNot: Tons of women have been fired under this but has a man ever been fired for having premarital sex? It's sexiest because men don't face the same consequences.


that might make for a very interesting lawsuit.
 
2013-03-01 08:36:48 AM
FTA: ""We all had to sign it," James said. "I needed a job in this economy and so I never thought that anything would happen -- I just needed a job."  "

Go to work for a company/organization with barbaric, dark ages sets of rules.

Get fired when you break those rules.

Attempt to file lawsuit.

Fail.

This sort of thing is covered under the First Amendment rights of the college, and it's been tried before. In the 80's, the Christian Science Monitor fired some staff who came out as gay/lesbian, they attempted lawsuit and failed (though the church did change its stance on homosexuality somewhat recently). In this case, the woman got pregnant, against the rules of the organization she worked for. Google "ministerial exception", which I believe would cover this (could be wrong, IANAL, any legal beagles weigh in?).
 
2013-03-01 08:37:18 AM

Tat'dGreaser: You signed a contract. Don't like it? Don't sign the f*cking contract. How is this difficult?


So you're at-will but also under contract for non-negotiable terms that heavily favor your employer and provide no reciprocal benefit to yourself?

Sounds legit.

The amusing thing is that employee contracts quite often aren't worth the paper they're printed on. They're literally there to bully you into not suing the company. It's their way of protecting themselves from their own management.
 
2013-03-01 08:38:22 AM

KawaiiNot: Tons of women have been fired under this but has a man ever been fired for having premarital sex? It's sexiest because men don't face the same consequences.


I'm sure men have been fired. But only when there is proof of sexual relations. That could be admission or caught on tape. A woman visibly shows she had sex. That is all the proof they need.
 
2013-03-01 08:38:42 AM

Molavian: FFS, is it that hard to not get pregnant?


It is when you're culture discourages learning about birth control and the use of it.
 
2013-03-01 08:40:48 AM

TheGrayCat: So, didn't the guy have to sign the same contract to get her job?  If so, are they going to immediately fire him, since his girlfriend got pregnant before they were married?

Or does that clause only apply to the dirty, dirty, girls - not the studly guys?


Sounds like it would be a prexisting condition in the guy's case.
 
2013-03-01 08:41:17 AM
unchellmatt:
This sort of thing is covered under the First Amendment rights of the college, and it's been tried before. In the 80's, the Christian Science Monitor fired some staff who came out as gay/lesbian, they attempted lawsuit and failed (though the church did change its stance on homosexuality somewhat recently). In this case, the woman got pregnant, against the rules of the organization she worked for. Google "ministerial exception", which I believe would cover this (could be wrong, IANAL, any legal beagles weigh in?).

what might be a telling difference here is that this school then tried to her the man who got her pregnant.  if they'd just fired the woman and left well enough alone...then yeah, they'd probably be in the clear.  But a clever lawyer *might* be able to turn this into a discrimination case since they tried to hire the guy who got her pregnant.  its certainly a clear double standard.

law aside tho, this is pretty scummy behavior on the part of the school.  it's a very public example that proves the point that to some religious folks, it's not about 'morality', they just want to punish women for having sex.
 
2013-03-01 08:43:06 AM

Weaver95: yes but what's REALLY offensive is that these fine, morally upstanding folks then offered her job to the guy who got her pregnant in the first place. that's all kinds of wrong.


He should have taken the job and then they should have sued. Right now it's just her word that they offered him the job (unless they have a letter or something).
 
2013-03-01 08:43:37 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: martissimo

Reading the article it sounds like the case law on this is all over the place, but if she signed a contract that said she had to abstain from pre-marital sex and that's how they word the reason for her firing then she's boned


OMG immaculate conception!

Then the church folk will be forced to prove that such a thing is impossible.


You are thinking of the virgin birth.   The immaculate conception is what they came out with because they didnt want to say Jesus was born out of a dirty woman.  Im not really sure how come the Big Man could make *poof* Mary immaculately conceived, but not Jesus *poof*.
 
2013-03-01 08:44:03 AM

KawaiiNot: Tons of women have been fired under this but has a man ever been fired for having premarital sex? It's sexiest because men don't face the same consequences.


These women would be sexier if they weren't so heavy.
 
2013-03-01 08:44:15 AM

miscreant: Weaver95: yes but what's REALLY offensive is that these fine, morally upstanding folks then offered her job to the guy who got her pregnant in the first place. that's all kinds of wrong.

He should have taken the job and then they should have sued. Right now it's just her word that they offered him the job (unless they have a letter or something).


it would have certainly made for an interesting lawsuit.
 
2013-03-01 08:45:06 AM
None of this would have happened if she'd been a member of a union.  Yeah, yeah...private school...I know.  Still.
 
2013-03-01 08:45:30 AM

GAT_00: ArkAngel: They didn't fire her for being pregnant.

Oh please.  They'll lie, but come on.  The school has no right, NONE, to dictate the private lives of their employees.  No company does.


Religious educational institutions have moral terms of employment. It's legal, if reprehensible.
 
2013-03-01 08:46:02 AM

theMightyRegeya: GAT_00: Grand_Moff_Joseph: At some point, the courts need to establish some settled precedent for these types of cases.  In this case, she did violate a contract, but the contract never said what (if any) consequences she would face if she violated said contract.

So, what happens now?

Simple: that clause is illegal.

I don't know that it is, esp. since IANAL, but I would think her lawyer ought to be able to make hay out of them offering the position to the person she had sex with.  I mean...fire the woman for having sex, then offer the job to her male partner?  C'mon.


It sounds like as long as he didnt pop out another illegitimate baby while he was an employee, he would be ok.
 
2013-03-01 08:46:07 AM
This will last as long as the pursestrings are open for the school. Once it gets to be too expensive even for their morals, they will settle.

/Allred will go full Vicksburg
 
2013-03-01 08:46:12 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Englebert Slaptyback: martissimo

Reading the article it sounds like the case law on this is all over the place, but if she signed a contract that said she had to abstain from pre-marital sex and that's how they word the reason for her firing then she's boned


OMG immaculate conception!

Then the church folk will be forced to prove that such a thing is impossible.

You are thinking of the virgin birth.   The immaculate conception is what they came out with because they didnt want to say Jesus was born out of a dirty woman.  Im not really sure how come the Big Man could make *poof* Mary immaculately conceived, but not Jesus *poof*.


immaculate conception and virgin births aren't even original.  other gods have pulled the same stunts before.  so jesus's baby daddy was stealing tricks from other gods and getting away with it.
 
2013-03-01 08:47:35 AM

Weaver95: KawaiiNot: Tons of women have been fired under this but has a man ever been fired for having premarital sex? It's sexiest because men don't face the same consequences.

that might make for a very interesting lawsuit.


Not really, the male candidate had yet to sign the agreement and was not subject to the disciplinary actions in said covenant. And even if the lawsuit was allowed to proceed on protect class grounds it would be up to the plaintiff to demonstrably show that the school knew well in advance that the candidate was also participating in said activities and clearly planned to ignore it should he had signed the agreement.

Move along, nothing to see here
 
2013-03-01 08:47:46 AM
How very "Christian" of them to kick a woman out penniless when she's expecting a child, leaving her a pauper. Funny isn't it, how "christians" exhibit some of the most "un-christian" behavior to people. Well, maybe not so funny, but ironic.
 
2013-03-01 08:47:47 AM

Weaver95: immaculate conception and virgin births aren't even original.  other gods have pulled the same stunts before.  so jesus's baby daddy was stealing tricks from other gods and getting away with it.


Yeah, Zeus helped the young ladies of Ancient Greece and nearby areas conceive "immaculately" again and again.
 
2013-03-01 08:47:52 AM

GAT_00: ArkAngel: They didn't fire her for being pregnant.

Oh please.  They'll lie, but come on.  The school has no right, NONE, to dictate the private lives of their employees.  No company does.


They aren't telling her what to do on her private time, they are just stating, if you want to work here, there are certain standards they should abide by.  On top of that, schools and businesses have been given every right to dictate our private lives.  One example is marijuana drug laws.  I want to sit home and smoke a little pot on a weekend, I can't because I could be drug tested, and in turn fired.
 
2013-03-01 08:49:12 AM

clong17: GAT_00: ArkAngel: They didn't fire her for being pregnant.

Oh please.  They'll lie, but come on.  The school has no right, NONE, to dictate the private lives of their employees.  No company does.

They aren't telling her what to do on her private time, they are just stating, if you want to work here, there are certain standards they should abide by.  On top of that, schools and businesses have been given every right to dictate our private lives.  One example is marijuana drug laws.  I want to sit home and smoke a little pot on a weekend, I can't because I could be drug tested, and in turn fired.


/smoking pot is against the law. In most states. farking isn't.
 
2013-03-01 08:49:41 AM

Gifted Many Few: KawaiiNot: Tons of women have been fired under this but has a man ever been fired for having premarital sex? It's sexiest because men don't face the same consequences.

I'm sure men have been fired. But only when there is proof of sexual relations. That could be admission or caught on tape. A woman visibly shows she had sex. That is all the proof they need.


I've never seen a single story on a men being fired this. Like you said it's near impossible for their employer to find out they are breaking this agreement.

Since immaculate conception is possible, I think the church organizations should be barred from using the condition of pregnancy as proof of premarital sex. Besides do these contracts define what is exactly premarital sex? And what if a woman gets pregnant from rape...is that premarital sex even though it was against her will?

It really is sexiest that the majority of concequences affect the women employees and not the men.
 
2013-03-01 08:49:43 AM

Jon iz teh kewl: San Diego Christian College asks that its employees sign its "community covenant," a two-page contract that asks its community, which includes employees and about 500 students on-site, to abstain from drugs, alcohol and tobacco and "abusive anger, malice, jealousy, lust, sexually immoral behavior including premarital sex, adultery, pornography and homosexuality, evil desires and prejudice based on race, sex or socioeconomic status."


hello!  contradiction??


Contradiction & hypocrisy?  In MY modern religion?  It's more likely than you think.
 
2013-03-01 08:50:26 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: You seek out a job at a religious organization, you sign a employment contract, you play by their rules even if you don't like them.

It may suck, but she knew what she was getting into when she took the job.


img84.imageshack.us
Let Her Crash!

/Getting a kick because I'm friends with a lesbian working for a Catholic School.
//I doubt it's a 'secret', but the moment someone raises an issue with it, I'm sure she's out of there.
 
2013-03-01 08:51:19 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: How very "Christian" of them to kick a woman out penniless when she's expecting a child, leaving her a pauper. Funny isn't it, how "christians" exhibit some of the most "un-christian" behavior to people. Well, maybe not so funny, but ironic.


markc1.typepad.com
 
2013-03-01 08:51:22 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: clong17: GAT_00: ArkAngel: They didn't fire her for being pregnant.

Oh please.  They'll lie, but come on.  The school has no right, NONE, to dictate the private lives of their employees.  No company does.

They aren't telling her what to do on her private time, they are just stating, if you want to work here, there are certain standards they should abide by.  On top of that, schools and businesses have been given every right to dictate our private lives.  One example is marijuana drug laws.  I want to sit home and smoke a little pot on a weekend, I can't because I could be drug tested, and in turn fired.

/smoking pot is against the law. In most states. farking isn't.


Perhaps, but institutions like this are religious organizations, and usually avoid taking federal money just so that they can have the ability to enforce stupid rules like this.

If she's really okay with out of wedlock sex (Hey, who isn't?), then she shouldn't have taken a job an organization like that.

Lay down with jesus-dogs, wake up with jesus-fleas.
 
2013-03-01 08:51:30 AM
School and it's rules are stupid but she signed the agreement and took the job.
She has no reasonable argument.
 
2013-03-01 08:51:47 AM
Newsflash: Christians tend to be judgemental hypocrites. Film at 11.
 
2013-03-01 08:52:29 AM
Christian Schools having double standards! Unpossible!
 
2013-03-01 08:52:36 AM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-01 08:53:32 AM

Farking Canuck: Newsflash: Christians tend to be judgemental hypocrites. Film at 11.


+1 thankyouverymuch
 
2013-03-01 08:53:54 AM

clong17


On top of that, schools and businesses have been given every right to dictate our private lives. One example is marijuana drug laws. I want to sit home and smoke a little pot on a weekend, I can't because I could be drug tested, and in turn fired.


The "schools and businesses" did not establish the drug laws. The government established the laws.

The schools and businesses set drug-related policies for their own organizations and members/employees. These policies are aligned with the laws. THAT is why you can be fired for failing a drug test: because you violated the policy, not solely because you violated the law.
 
2013-03-01 08:53:54 AM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: At some point, the courts need to establish some settled precedent for these types of cases.  In this case, she did violate a contract, but the contract never said what (if any) consequences she would face if she violated said contract.

So, what happens now?


I didn't see a link to the contract.  Did you see a link to the contract?  Did you get a copy somewhere else?

How, exactly, do you know that it never said what would happen?  Is it because the lawyer said, "It does not say that you will be fired if you do not comply." ?  All she is telling you is one of the eleventy gajillion possible phrases that the contract does not contain.

She makes no mention of what the contract does contain.  It very well could have said, ".....appropriate action up to, but not necessarily, termination."  That would be consistent with the statement,"It does not say that you will be fired."

I don't know what the contract says but just because the lawyer says the contract does not contain a particular phrase does not mean that the contract is silent on that point.   Of course, that was the impression she was trying to give with that statement and that's how lawyers fool rubes in court to win cases.  See: OJ Simpson.
 
2013-03-01 08:54:09 AM

theMightyRegeya: GAT_00: Grand_Moff_Joseph: At some point, the courts need to establish some settled precedent for these types of cases.  In this case, she did violate a contract, but the contract never said what (if any) consequences she would face if she violated said contract.

So, what happens now?

Simple: that clause is illegal.

I don't know that it is, esp. since IANAL, but I would think her lawyer ought to be able to make hay out of them offering the position to the person she had sex with.  I mean...fire the woman for having sex, then offer the job to her male partner?  C'mon.


I kind of doubt that the job was really offered to her then, boyfriend.
Of course she would have had to have lied and said it was offered to her boyfriend; but why trust someones word that would have signed a contract, and then sue the institution when she breached it?

There are other non-religious companies that have moral clauses in employment contracts.
The 'morals' may be arbitrary, but people get their panties in a wad when a religious institution enforces a contract.

Same thing I said before: If you can't abide by the rules of an employment contract, then don't agree to take the job based on the contract agreement.
 
2013-03-01 08:55:21 AM
Damn free will!
 
2013-03-01 08:56:51 AM
If the school has taken even a few pennies of what could be deemed "public money" this won't last long with Gloria Allred whoring it to the press, or at least threatening to.  OTOH, if they're running clean off of tuition alone (..I'm finding that unlikely) then, well, it's still California.

Nhojwolfe:  and somewhat would like to see the schooled sued back to the stone age.

Meh.  It wouldn't need to be a really big lawsuit for that short of a push.
 
2013-03-01 08:59:17 AM
That they fired her for premarital sex isn't problematic. They are a religious organization that makes employees sign a contract. Even if that wasn't the case, they could legitimately make the case adhering to religious principles when working for said religious institution is a reasonable bona-fide occupational requirement.  What is troubling is that they were willing to hire a man who was guilty of the same thing.  That potentially opens them up to a Title VII suit as they appear to have different standards based on gender.   Not surprisingly, I saw the world's biggest attention whore mentioned in the article.
 
2013-03-01 08:59:50 AM
WWJD?  Apparently deprive an unwed mother and her child of a source of income.  Yeah...that sounds like Christ.

Luckily they totally set themselves up for a discrimination lawsuit by offering her fiance a job.  I hope she sues the pants off them.
 
2013-03-01 09:00:33 AM

Deep Contact: Damn free will!


Free will doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

Act in an un-fundamentalist way and don't be shocked when fundamentalist organizations don't want to employ you.
 
2013-03-01 09:01:30 AM

Ed Grubermann: nimbers: ArkAngel: GAT_00: Grand_Moff_Joseph: At some point, the courts need to establish some settled precedent for these types of cases.  In this case, she did violate a contract, but the contract never said what (if any) consequences she would face if she violated said contract.

So, what happens now?

Simple: that clause is illegal.

In what way? They didn't fire her for being pregnant. The pregnancy simply revealed the breach in the same way a sex tape would

Immaculate Conception.

Oh, for fark's sake. That's not Immaculate Conception. Mary was born free of sin. That's Immaculate Conception.


Ummm... no.  IIRC, Mary was born with sin, her son wasn't*

* depending on your particular beliefs.
\may his noodley appendage be upon us.
 
2013-03-01 09:03:21 AM

GAT_00: Grand_Moff_Joseph: At some point, the courts need to establish some settled precedent for these types of cases.  In this case, she did violate a contract, but the contract never said what (if any) consequences she would face if she violated said contract.

So, what happens now?

Simple: that clause is illegal.


Stupid, yes. Illegal? IANAL, but the SCOTUS has upheld it for religious schools before in certain cases (this case is different because she's not directly a minister as most would define it, but I guarantee you the school will use the passage where it states that teaching is a gift of the Holy Spirit for ministry in their case).

What she has going for her is that there is no stated consequence... but anyone with any sense should know that breaking a contract that you signed is generally not considered a good idea.

What should win her the case is the fact that her then-fiance, now-husband was offered a job. Assuming the school knew who he was in relation to her, they've farked themselves.

/for the record, I hope she wins. What a ridiculous farking contract
 
2013-03-01 09:04:01 AM

Weaver95: Also insulting, James said, was that after firing her, the school offered a job to her then-fiancé - they are now married - even though it was known that he, too, engaged in premarital sex. He did not accept the job, she said

see, that's where I've got a problem.  look, if you want to fire a woman for having pre-marital sex...ok, that's fine.  if that's what your morality says you can do then go ahead and kick the pregnant woman out into the world with no money.  But if pre-marital sex is bad then its bad for the guy as well.  it takes two to tango guys, she ain't getting pregnant all on her own, she had help.  you wanna condemn her actions as immoral then you MUST condemn the guy who got her pregnant.

I think that school isn't as moral as they believe.  in fact, I think their morality is deeply flawed.


This.  The fact that they turned around and offered the boyfriend a job indicates that their concern with premarital sex only applies to women, or really has very little to do with the act of premarital sex, and I think that could get them into some legal trouble.
 
2013-03-01 09:04:50 AM

Pumpernickel bread: That potentially opens them up to a Title VII suit as they appear to have different standards based on gender. Not surprisingly, I saw the world's biggest attention whore mentioned in the article.


He turned the job down, so wasn't subject to the rules. As I said plaintiff would have to demonstrably show that the school knew full well in advance and planned to create said double standard.

Its a stretch.

Now had he accepted the job and they did nothing, then yes its a clear path towards a possible lawsuit under a protected class.
 
2013-03-01 09:06:23 AM

Aigoo: Stupid, yes. Illegal? IANAL, but the SCOTUS has upheld it for religious schools before in certain cases (this case is different because she's not directly a minister as most would define it, but I guarantee you the school will use the passage where it states that teaching is a gift of the Holy Spirit for ministry in their case).


Now if only SHE did that, she could have kept her job!
 
2013-03-01 09:10:25 AM

Gifted Many Few: What the issue here. When you work for someone, follow the rules. If she wants to go out and slut it up, she should have picked a different vocation.


not sure if troll but i'll bite.  the guy she "slutting it up" with was the man she was going to marry.  unless you think any type of premarital sex is "slutting it up"
 
2013-03-01 09:10:30 AM
it goes like this: If they fire her for a violation of their morality contract, than they don't have to give her maternity leave, and if they give her fiance a job right then, he won't have worked there long enough to be covered by the FMLA.  It seems to me that this isn't about religious beliefs, it's about hiding behind religious beliefs to informally opt out of abiding by the FMLA whenever they can.  Religion plus other organizations always seems to corrupt both, whether the other organization is a government, or a business.  This is not to suggest that either is completely clean (or corrupt) beforehand.
 
2013-03-01 09:11:26 AM

vpb: Until she cheated on her husband with a ghost and gave birth to a bastard


She wasnt married when her bastard crotch fruit was conceived.
Magical/Delusional slut yes
Cheater no

She was single

/ underage but single
// old enough to bleed old enough to butcher ? (joking)
 
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