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(Canoe)   School authorities say that transgendered six-year old is no longer allowed to use the girl's room at the school. Wow, dick move   (cnews.canoe.ca) divider line 577
    More: Stupid, public accommodations, Civil Rights Commission, Human Rights Act, elementary schools, male genitalia  
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7274 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Feb 2013 at 10:01 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-28 10:02:41 AM
Wow, that kid's parents must be MESSED up.
 
2013-02-28 10:03:17 AM
I saw that episode of Shameless.
 
2013-02-28 10:03:18 AM
So is he/she a girl/boy or not? Seems no one can make up their minds here
 
2013-02-28 10:03:44 AM
Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.
 
2013-02-28 10:03:50 AM

The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.
 
2013-02-28 10:04:09 AM
Excuse me ladies while I whip this out....
 
2013-02-28 10:04:48 AM
Dude... it's a six-year-old. That could change again after puberty; who knows. Second, it's going to be difficult to explain that to the kids of the opposite gender of the bathroom he/she is using.
 
2013-02-28 10:05:08 AM
Okay, the headline made me laugh.
 
2013-02-28 10:05:18 AM
FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?
 
2013-02-28 10:06:13 AM
At this age, it's conditioning more than nature.
 
2013-02-28 10:06:28 AM
Transgendered at six?  What did the parents catch the kid playing dressup in his sister's clothes one day and just go full retard or something?  Seems way to early to make the call on the kid and more like creepy parents grooming the kid to be a transgender or something that ends up on an extra farked up episode of Law and Order.

/also considering the kid has access to gender neutral facilities, not seeing the problem
//seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles and all that at 6 to make a decision
/I think thought girls were gross and had cooties back then, yet I grew out of that
 
2013-02-28 10:06:46 AM
The transgender author of TFA couldn't possibly have an agenda of her own, right?

/ my 10-yr old had certain feminine qualities when he was 4 or 5 so I guess we did him a huge disservice by not identifying him as a girl at that point.

// okay - so he used to be a brony but I fail to see where that's relevant.
 
2013-02-28 10:07:03 AM
I am 110% okay with people who are transgender. While I admit I'm very cautious to assign the term transgender to someone who hasn't reached sexual maturity yet, I honestly don't see it as my problem to deal with.

However, bathrooms aren't divided by gender (what you identify as).
They are divided by sex (what body parts you have).

Maybe I'm being terribly unfair, but my response to the child and parents is "tough".
 
2013-02-28 10:07:38 AM

orbister: Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals


They call those boys, from where I was raised.
 
2013-02-28 10:07:41 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.


That's transsexual. There is a difference.

Gender = Identity
Sex = body parts
 
2013-02-28 10:09:01 AM
Transwhatnow!? Spooky! Scary!
 
2013-02-28 10:09:17 AM

ha-ha-guy: //seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles


It's not a matter of choosing a role. It's a matter of knowing who you are.
 
2013-02-28 10:09:22 AM
I am fully in support of LGBT rights, but in this case a six year old does not have a clear enough understanding of him/herself to be making these decisions.

I have to agree with earlier posters in that the mother here is way screwed up.

tfa says the kid prefers pink... cool nothing wrong with that, he likes girl toys fine... but in no way does he need to be using the girls restroom at age 6 in an elementary school...

These parents are as bad as pageant parents in projecting their own screwed up psych on the kids
 
2013-02-28 10:09:35 AM
Child protective services need to rescue this kid and his siblings from their farked up parents.
 
2013-02-28 10:09:38 AM
Its not like there are stand up stalls in the girls restroom, they all use stalls

...right? I mean I've never been in there so you all could have a three ring circus for all I know
 
2013-02-28 10:09:44 AM
If your six year old has a penis he uses the boys bathroom. If your six year old has a vagina she uses the girls bathroom. It really isn't that difficult.

BTW, you have really f*cked up your six year old.
 
2013-02-28 10:09:58 AM

orbister: Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals,


On issue here: Grow a brain.
 
2013-02-28 10:10:33 AM
In another interview, the mother in question described this child as "our neuro-typical child". This family is farked.
 
2013-02-28 10:10:39 AM
Bigots... still on the wrong side of history.
 
2013-02-28 10:10:48 AM

DeathBySmiley


That's transsexual. There is a difference.


That was kind of the point: I had a minor cranial malfunction and conflated the terms.
 
2013-02-28 10:11:05 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: orbister: Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals

They call those boys, from where I was raised.


Just like they call albino africans "white", I presume.
 
2013-02-28 10:11:17 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-28 10:12:32 AM

orbister: ha-ha-guy: //seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles

It's not a matter of choosing a role. It's a matter of knowing who you are.



At 6, he chooses to be whatever his parents encourage him to be. 'Cause he's farking 6 already.
 
2013-02-28 10:12:34 AM
*chuckle*
 
2013-02-28 10:13:59 AM

Kommissar: orbister: Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals,

On issue here: Grow a brain.


Might I respectfully suggest that you do a little bit of reading on child development before saying anything quite so daft?
 
2013-02-28 10:14:00 AM
ok, I'm totally supportive of equality for transgendered people -it's a hard thing, and they put up with way too much shiat from society for it.

But 6 is kinda young. A responsible parent ought to be delaying that kind of thing at that point. When they get to 11 or 12, and puberty is looming on the horizon and nature is gonna start making decisions one way or the other, then ok, if they're sure about it, then let the kid transition. But at 6, they should be keeping their options open and keeping things as neutral as possible. FTA: she can use gender-neutral facilities reserved for employees or those in the school's health room. Leave it at that.

Then again, of course, this article was plucked out from the blue specifically because it makes transgendered people and those sympathetic to them look totally irresponsible.... sigh...
 
2013-02-28 10:14:08 AM

Kann: I am fully in support of LGBT rights, but in this case a six year old does not have a clear enough understanding of him/herself to be making these decisions.

I have to agree with earlier posters in that the mother here is way screwed up.

tfa says the kid prefers pink... cool nothing wrong with that, he likes girl toys fine... but in no way does he need to be using the girls restroom at age 6 in an elementary school...

These parents are as bad as pageant parents in projecting their own screwed up psych on the kids


Bringing the media into this drama will undoubtedly f*ck the kid up more. He is the middle triplet and may need attention. There are a number of scenarios here but for a right now he is a little boy and can use the boy's room.
 
2013-02-28 10:14:13 AM
Look i'm all for adults being able to have whatever sort of lifestyle they want, but it seems slightly disturbing that a six year old boy can just say "I have decided i'm a girl, therefore you have to let me use the women's bathroom". If this precedent stands, i suspect that nearly 100% of teenage males in junior high will voluntarily identify as female in exchange for unrestricted access to the female locker room.
 
2013-02-28 10:14:57 AM
Everyone has this covered, except I'll add why is there a picture of the kid?
 
2013-02-28 10:15:15 AM
in before fark geneticists

the mom is a goddamn loon
 
2013-02-28 10:15:21 AM

Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.


The concept of gender starts to form around 2 or 3 years. It's why (most) 5 year old boys like GI Joe but not Barbie's magical adventure.
 
2013-02-28 10:15:41 AM

TheDumbBlonde: In another interview, the mother in question described this child as "our neuro-typical child". This family is farked.


The expression "neuro typical" seems a little precious to me, but I can see why people prefer not to refer to children without ASD or other issues as "normal". A bit like civilised people say "gay" and "straight", not "gay" and "normal".
 
2013-02-28 10:15:52 AM
Name the mental illness...

1. unwarranted sense of importance and paranoia
2. Lack of empathy for others
3. delusions and a skewed sense of reality
4. strange behavior and illogical behavior

Am I talking about schizophrenia? Paranoid Psychosis? NO! TRANSGENDERISM!

1. Unwarranted sense of importance and paranoia-  "I identify as a woman, it is MY right to do so, you are just homo-trans phobic if you disagree!"
2. Lack of empathy- "I identify as a woman, it does not matter if real women do not want me in the bathroom with them, its all about what I identify as, thats all that matters!"
3. delusions and skewed sense of reality- "I feel like im born in the wrong body, I am a woman despite all biological signs to the contrary"
4. Strange behavior and illogical behavior- "I will wear the most horrid womens clothes, perhaps some garbage found in the back of my grandmas closet or something no regular woman would wanna wear JUST to prove im a woman. Also women wear heels all day everywhere, so do I. Nevermind that I am fooling no one and I look like a trainwreck hit a womens big and tall, IM A LADY, BUB"
 
2013-02-28 10:16:04 AM

orbister: First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals.


And I'm a bird without wings.
 
2013-02-28 10:16:18 AM
Does it have a penis or a vagina?

That's really the only question that needs to be asked here.

I don't care what you (or your mom) thinks you are, nature has actually given you a pretty big clue as to what you actually are if you just look down.
 
2013-02-28 10:16:19 AM

DaWormyPimpsta: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 320x256]


Your face palm falls short, as do all others in existence.  No face palm of sufficient magnitude exists in the known 'verse.
 
2013-02-28 10:16:33 AM

Kann: tfa says the kid prefers pink... cool nothing wrong with that, he likes girl toys fine... but in no way does he need to be using the girls restroom at age 6 in an elementary school...


Exactly buy the kid the toys he wants, but hold off on making the final call until he makes it through puberty.  Let the kid explore and once the body chemistry has settled down figure it all out.  in the men time just tell him he uses the room based on physical equipment.  For the kid to be so settled down instead of in a more exploratory stage, there has to be massive parental pressure here.
 
2013-02-28 10:16:39 AM
www.cbc.ca
I say, Mrs. Crabtree - I have to sh*t like a pampered race-horse.
Allow me the use of the ladies powder room as I'm in denial of this dastardly penis I'm sporting!
 
2013-02-28 10:16:43 AM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: In another interview, the mother in question described this child as "our neuro-typical child". This family is farked.

The expression "neuro typical" seems a little precious to me, but I can see why people prefer not to refer to children without ASD or other issues as "normal". A bit like civilised people say "gay" and "straight", not "gay" and "normal".


How dare you call me straight, sir.

I much prefer the term "pussy wrecker".
 
2013-02-28 10:17:28 AM
So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?
 
2013-02-28 10:19:26 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: But 6 is kinda young. A responsible parent ought to be delaying that kind of thing at that point. When they get to 11 or 12, and puberty is looming on the horizon and nature is gonna start making decisions one way or the other, then ok, if they're sure about it, then let the kid transition. But at 6, they should be keeping their options open and keeping things as neutral as possible.


Even if the parents could delay things, what they are asking for does seem to be keeping things neutral. Saying "if you feel like being a boy you can use the boys' toilets with all the other boys and if you feel like being a girl you can use the special gender neutral toilets along with the other sick freaks" is not keeping things neutral; it's heavily weighing the scales in one direction.

Kid wants to wear a dress and be treated as a girl. Can't see that it's any of the school's business to stand in her way.
 
2013-02-28 10:19:35 AM
i512.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-28 10:19:35 AM

orbister: Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?


She'll leave the toilet seats up all the time. Just imagine the trauma...
=Smidge=
 
2013-02-28 10:20:03 AM
Let's review: Mom has four kids. According to mom, one is full-blown autistic, one "measures on the autistic scale", one had a massive brain injury at 4 months and is incurably damaged and finally, one is "neuro-typical". So BAM, the only norm is suddenly transgender. I think mommy has a serious case of Munschausen or is on one hell of a martyr trip.
 
2013-02-28 10:20:19 AM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


There's zero-chance of that shiate happening. They'll beat* that crap right out of him, err I mean her.

/ beat = total mind-farking in this case.
 
2013-02-28 10:20:23 AM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


I'm betting blame the school for implanting the concept of masculinity into the kid or something.  Kind of like how hyper-macho dads start ranting about liberal, PC society making their kids into pussies.  In fact this just really seems to be the messed up mother version of a hyper macho dad farking up his kids.
 
2013-02-28 10:20:30 AM

houginator: Look i'm all for adults being able to have whatever sort of lifestyle they want, but it seems slightly disturbing that a six year old boy can just say "I have decided i'm a girl, therefore you have to let me use the women's bathroom". If this precedent stands, i suspect that nearly 100% of teenage males in junior high will voluntarily identify as female in exchange for unrestricted access to the female locker room.


You just need one, a la Kryten in that season of Red Dwarf.  Then he sells the pictures. Profit.

/A chick should pull the same crap with the male locker room.
 
2013-02-28 10:20:35 AM
Most people who are transgendered state that they knew very early on that they didn't feel right within their body or socially constructed gender. Six is just unusual because the parents aren't forcing their idea of what she should be of her.
 
2013-02-28 10:20:59 AM

atomicmask: Name the mental illness...

1. unwarranted sense of importance and paranoia
2. Lack of empathy for others
3. delusions and a skewed sense of reality
4. strange behavior and illogical behavior



Easy. It's called "worrying-about-what-toilet-a-six-year-old-kid-wants-to-use-itis".
 
2013-02-28 10:21:10 AM
Wouldn't it be an odd coincidence if the parents of this child also had some extreme political/social views or were "Studies" majors?  nah.....
;)
 
2013-02-28 10:21:32 AM

TheDumbBlonde: Let's review: Mom has four kids. According to mom, one is full-blown autistic, one "measures on the autistic scale", one had a massive brain injury at 4 months and is incurably damaged and finally, one is "neuro-typical". So BAM, the only norm is suddenly transgender. I think mommy has a serious case of Munschausen or is on one hell of a martyr trip.


The biatch has a case of of the 'SSD monies'.

/Meanwhile, real people who need help ain't getting it
 
2013-02-28 10:21:45 AM
Name the mental illness...

1. unwarranted sense of importance and paranoia
2. Lack of empathy for others
3. delusions and a skewed sense of reality
4. strange behavior and illogical behavior


Autism!
 
2013-02-28 10:21:53 AM
I think I see the problem.

www.truuconfessions.com
 
2013-02-28 10:21:58 AM

ha-ha-guy: Exactly buy the kid the toys he wants, but hold off on making the final call until he makes it through puberty.


Puberty is the jump-off point. I agree that they should delay the decision as long as possible for the kid to make up their own mind, but somebody who transitions before puberty has an astronomically better chance of passing and looking good in their new body than somebody who transitions after puberty.

Yes, it's good to err on the side of caution, but if the kid is really sure at the age of 12, and has been sure all their lives, then you're setting them up in a much better position in life by letting them go for it rather than force them to wait until they're 16/17.
 
2013-02-28 10:22:04 AM
Yay, another transgender thread.  Make with all your vitriol.  I'll be elsewhere.
 
2013-02-28 10:22:45 AM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


Perhaps "Be tolerant, loving, and accepting, just as she was when the kid was six"?
 
2013-02-28 10:22:48 AM
I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.
 
2013-02-28 10:24:25 AM
I have no issue with transsexuals

but this really becoming a tyranny of the minority situation

Use the wrong pronoun and your nailed to the cross, try to draw lines based on simple biological systems, nailed to the cross

how about, can you pee standing up, go in this room. If not, you go to this room.....
 
2013-02-28 10:24:51 AM

Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.


What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.
 
2013-02-28 10:24:57 AM
call me ignorant, but I didn't think one could have a sexual idenity until they were old enough to get a boner/wet.  I mean maybe the kid is just a effeminate guy who will have an interest in girls as he gets older, or maybe he's just gay, but I just don't get the whole he's a transgender at 6. I'm 26, and still trying to figure out my sexuality, I truly doubt any six year old (who probably/hopefully doesn't know the difference the sexual roles) could have it so figured out.  I mean if it's just because he likes pink and barbies over blue and matchboxes, then they are probably wrong, I've had many nephews that preferred dolls at six and girls at 13, and nieces that prefer being tom boy only to switch to makeup and dresses when they got boyfriends.

Raise him how nature intended, as a boy, at least until he's old enough to realize the real differences of genders.
 
2013-02-28 10:25:30 AM
Another reason why we should do our business outdoors - the way God, Darwin & Bear Grylls intended!
Trees don't identify/acknowledge genders.

/Canuck who just dooged in a snow bank.
 
2013-02-28 10:25:58 AM
It's amazing how many Farkers have the ability to diagnose mental illness in a person they've never met via a single news article. Shiat, where were you guys when Bill Frist was diagnosing Terry Schiavo?
 
2013-02-28 10:25:58 AM

HAMMERTOE: orbister: First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals.

And I'm a bird without wings.


How is that claim going to help make you feel special by suing someone?  I am going for something I can get something cool out of.

I identify as being an astronaut, and am suing NASA for not allowing me to fly the space shuttle.

//This can be fun if we learn how to do it right.
 
2013-02-28 10:26:09 AM

Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.


Absolutely. Elementary/primary schools don't need segregated toilets.
 
2013-02-28 10:26:22 AM

TheDumbBlonde: Let's review: Mom has four kids. According to mom, one is full-blown autistic, one "measures on the autistic scale", one had a massive brain injury at 4 months and is incurably damaged and finally, one is "neuro-typical". So BAM, the only norm is suddenly transgender. I think mommy has a serious case of Munschausen or is on one hell of a martyr trip.


I'll bet she doesn't like being referred to as mom. Just because she had babies doesn't mean she's a woman on the inside as well.
 
2013-02-28 10:26:46 AM

Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.


this.  came here to say the same thing, already done by the 5th post.
 
2013-02-28 10:26:50 AM

loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.


And they're also unsanitary and lack privacy. What's wrong with stalls?
 
2013-02-28 10:26:51 AM

tjsands1118: Raise him how nature intended, as a boy, at least until he's old enough to realize the real differences of genders.



That's reasonable talk and it won't be tolerated.
 
2013-02-28 10:27:34 AM

tjsands1118: call me ignorant, but I didn't think one could have a sexual idenity until they were old enough to get a boner/wet.  I mean maybe the kid is just a effeminate guy who will have an interest in girls as he gets older, or maybe he's just gay, but I just don't get the whole he's a transgender at 6.


This has nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality.
 
2013-02-28 10:27:34 AM
Remember "Sleepaway Camp"?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
 
2013-02-28 10:27:37 AM

ha-ha-guy: Transgendered at six?  What did the parents catch the kid playing dressup in his sister's clothes one day and just go full retard or something?  Seems way to early to make the call on the kid and more like creepy parents grooming the kid to be a transgender or something that ends up on an extra farked up episode of Law and Order.

/also considering the kid has access to gender neutral facilities, not seeing the problem
//seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles and all that at 6 to make a decision
/I think thought girls were gross and had cooties back then, yet I grew out of that


There is a story of a kid (I think) from Saskatchewan that had a botched circumcision back in the late 60's.  Bad enough that they weren't able to save what was left and the decision was made that the kid would surgically become a girl, and simply raised that way.  So from about 6 months or so the kid was a girl.  Around the time the kid was 5 (he) tore off his dress, destroyed all his dolls and stole his brothers toy cars. He was pretty messed up and eventually took his own life.  My point was just because you look like a thing doesn't make you that thing.  And kids know, they may not have enough experience or context to express it all that well, but they know.
 
2013-02-28 10:29:11 AM

orbister: atomicmask: Name the mental illness...

1. unwarranted sense of importance and paranoia
2. Lack of empathy for others
3. delusions and a skewed sense of reality
4. strange behavior and illogical behavior


Easy. It's called "worrying-about-what-toilet-a-six-year-old-kid-wants-to-use-itis".


How about the treatment of "I-don't-want-my-6-year-old-daughter-in-the-toilet-with-a-6-year-old-b oy-in-drag-ospy"
 
2013-02-28 10:29:27 AM

loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.


Must have went to school at Wrigley Field
 
2013-02-28 10:30:19 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: ha-ha-guy: Exactly buy the kid the toys he wants, but hold off on making the final call until he makes it through puberty.

Puberty is the jump-off point. I agree that they should delay the decision as long as possible for the kid to make up their own mind, but somebody who transitions before puberty has an astronomically better chance of passing and looking good in their new body than somebody who transitions after puberty.

Yes, it's good to err on the side of caution, but if the kid is really sure at the age of 12, and has been sure all their lives, then you're setting them up in a much better position in life by letting them go for it rather than force them to wait until they're 16/17.


It opens this door to an event where the kid undergoes life altering surgery based solely on mental state, not any physical threat in terms of the child will drop dead tomorrow, prior to the age of majority.  I'd imagine, and hope, someday we'll have a firm understanding of the condition, and can set up a path for surgery.  However starting at age 6 when the kid still has a couple unknown body chemistry changes in their future seems a bit premature to me.  Especially because here you're also poisoning the well with relation to this kid's peer group.  I'd imagine middle school and high school will be hell for the kid.
 
2013-02-28 10:30:29 AM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.

Must have went to school at Wrigley Field


I thought the toilet at Wrigley Field was that big pit in the middle with grass, dirt, and players.
 
2013-02-28 10:30:29 AM
Remember when you were 5, 6?

Did you play "Show me yours, I'll show you mine"?

Yeah, well, you really think a six year old can resist that?Especially if "she" is anatomically different? And really, six? Six year olds don;t understand a lot of complex things.....hell, I'm not sure that I understand this "I have the wrong genitals" thing. See, I'm a woman. To clarify, I was born with a vagina, but I never much cared for dolls and such, I more cared for doing things people would consider "boy stuff". Even now, I enjoy watching hockey, I don't like chick flicks, and I'm not into makeup, Although I can and do dress nicely and like a woman when the occasion calls.I just figure I'm a woman who doesn't much like sterotypical "female" things(Who was it that decided which genders could like what?)
 
2013-02-28 10:30:31 AM
Yeah, I'm with the "no, you don't get a gender identity with respect to government institutions until puberty, when sex is a factor" people, here.  Six-year-olds don't have sex, they don't really even  have a gender, beyond the usual kiddy factionalization.  Or, if they are having sex and it does matter, it's time for the state to intervene because its a parent's job to avert the kind of abuse these kinds of declaration are indicative of.

Albeit, by the same token the segregated bathrooms in the school are there for the benefit of the adults, who cares which ones the kids wander into?
 
2013-02-28 10:30:37 AM

orbister: Saying "if you feel like being a boy you can use the boys' toilets with all the other boys and if you feel like being a girl you can use the special gender neutral toilets along with the other sick freaks" is not keeping things neutral; it's heavily weighing the scales in one direction.


yeah... true.
I dunno, I guess I kinda feel like there should be a bit of an "activation barrier" so to speak. i.e. They should tell the kid that they love and accept them no matter what their gender, but in a way I kinda think that at that point they should be tipping the scales towards cisgender, and seeing if the child's certainty is strong and enduring.

Then again, who is it really harming if a 6 year old uses the girls bathroom -they've got private stalls and it's not like (s)he's a pedophile, so yeah, why not let them use the girls room.
 
2013-02-28 10:31:25 AM
Just want to point out that girls do more than just pee in the girls' room. They get changed into their gym clothes there as well. I suspect that the school's sudden change in attitude was brought about by an incident of some kind (probably a complaint from one or more of the girls) and that it either hasn't been passed on to the parents or not mentioned in the article. It's possible to think of a few scenarios where the school decided it was better simply to ask him to use the gender-neutral toilets.

I do think it's fairly obvious from the parents' reaction that they have some major issues. They are NOT being neutral about it, they are actually pushing the agenda of him being "really" a girl. Having him using the girls room is just as likely to single him out for bullying as using the gender neutral one. Don't you realise girls are actually terrible bullies? Maybe not so much at 6, but in another couple of years they certainly will be capable of making his life hell - and of being very uncomfortable changing around him.
 
2013-02-28 10:31:49 AM

sno man: ha-ha-guy: Transgendered at six?  What did the parents catch the kid playing dressup in his sister's clothes one day and just go full retard or something?  Seems way to early to make the call on the kid and more like creepy parents grooming the kid to be a transgender or something that ends up on an extra farked up episode of Law and Order.

/also considering the kid has access to gender neutral facilities, not seeing the problem
//seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles and all that at 6 to make a decision
/I think thought girls were gross and had cooties back then, yet I grew out of that

There is a story of a kid (I think) from Saskatchewan that had a botched circumcision back in the late 60's.  Bad enough that they weren't able to save what was left and the decision was made that the kid would surgically become a girl, and simply raised that way.  So from about 6 months or so the kid was a girl.  Around the time the kid was 5 (he) tore off his dress, destroyed all his dolls and stole his brothers toy cars. He was pretty messed up and eventually took his own life.  My point was just because you look like a thing doesn't make you that thing.  And kids know, they may not have enough experience or context to express it all that well, but they know.


David Reimer
 
2013-02-28 10:32:10 AM

atomicmask: How about the treatment of "I-don't-want-my-6-year-old-daughter-in-the-toilet-with-a-6-year-old-b oy-in-drag-ospy"


Why not? I mean, unless you're suggesting that 6 year olds are going to be having sex, in which case...
 ಠ_ಠ
6 year olds, dude.
 
2013-02-28 10:32:28 AM
Tomorrow let's explore Therianthropy, Lycanthropy, Cynanthropy, Ailuranthropy and Musoanthropy.

OK Mommy.
 
2013-02-28 10:33:05 AM
Theaetetus: And [wall urinals are] also unsanitary and lack privacy. What's wrong with stalls?

If you're not respecting the proper bathroom etiquette and peeing in a unit that is directly next to one being occupied, well yeah, you're a perv and privacy is gonna suffer.

/ As for the sanitary nature of wall urinals vs the group trough, I got noth'n.
 
2013-02-28 10:33:33 AM

ha-ha-guy: However starting at age 6 when the kid still has a couple unknown body chemistry changes in their future seems a bit premature to me.


I agree with that completely. The decision should be delayed as much as possible. All I'm saying is that puberty carries with it a certain amount of "locking in" that's hard to change once committed. Delaying as long as possible is responsible, but at age 11-12-13 or so, there is some sense in saying that you gotta commit one way or the other.
 
2013-02-28 10:34:24 AM

orbister: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: orbister: Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals

They call those boys, from where I was raised.

Just like they call albino africans "white", I presume.



Oh please.

Let's take genetic testing into consideration.....and a boy will show up as male.

An albino African will show up as having African/black heritage.......and a
 
2013-02-28 10:34:34 AM
Wow. Fark has been really a quite nasty place to be the last few days. At least Coy has parents who listen to her and stand up for her.
 
2013-02-28 10:34:53 AM

sno man: ha-ha-guy: Transgendered at six?  What did the parents catch the kid playing dressup in his sister's clothes one day and just go full retard or something?  Seems way to early to make the call on the kid and more like creepy parents grooming the kid to be a transgender or something that ends up on an extra farked up episode of Law and Order.

/also considering the kid has access to gender neutral facilities, not seeing the problem
//seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles and all that at 6 to make a decision
/I think thought girls were gross and had cooties back then, yet I grew out of that

There is a story of a kid (I think) from Saskatchewan that had a botched circumcision back in the late 60's.  Bad enough that they weren't able to save what was left and the decision was made that the kid would surgically become a girl, and simply raised that way.  So from about 6 months or so the kid was a girl.  Around the time the kid was 5 (he) tore off his dress, destroyed all his dolls and stole his brothers toy cars. He was pretty messed up and eventually took his own life.  My point was just because you look like a thing doesn't make you that thing.  And kids know, they may not have enough experience or context to express it all that well, but they know.


I think Reimer also got an extra helping of farked up quackery from his shrink at an early age.
 
2013-02-28 10:35:27 AM

Theaetetus: loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.

And they're also unsanitary and lack privacy. What's wrong with stalls?


Unsanitary?  Are you eating off of it?  You are pissing into it, no touching involved with most new auto flushers.  You sit on a toilet, maybe use the paper ass gaskets.

As for privacy, most have small partitions to keep meat gazers to a minimum.  Stall doors and locks have been handled post wipe but pre-wash.
 
2013-02-28 10:35:53 AM
Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.
 
2013-02-28 10:36:09 AM

Theaetetus: I thought the toilet at Wrigley Field was that big pit in the middle with grass, dirt, and players.


Nah, thats the shiatter. We piss in the trough near the beer stand.

octopied: I more cared for doing things people would consider "boy stuff". Even now, I enjoy watching hockey, I don't like chick flicks, and I'm not into makeup


So, free later then? Blackhawks are playing tonight.
 
2013-02-28 10:36:32 AM

ginandbacon: Wow. Fark has been really a quite nasty place to be the last few days. At least Coy has parents who listen to her and stand up for her.


If by her you mean him, then yeah, he's the luckiest kid on the planet...
 
2013-02-28 10:36:58 AM

Russ1642: TheDumbBlonde: Let's review: Mom has four kids. According to mom, one is full-blown autistic, one "measures on the autistic scale", one had a massive brain injury at 4 months and is incurably damaged and finally, one is "neuro-typical". So BAM, the only norm is suddenly transgender. I think mommy has a serious case of Munschausen or is on one hell of a martyr trip.

I'll bet she doesn't like being referred to as mom. Just because she had babies doesn't mean she's a woman on the inside as well.


She's not weird. Everyone else is criminally normal.
 
2013-02-28 10:37:11 AM

Theaetetus: atomicmask: How about the treatment of "I-don't-want-my-6-year-old-daughter-in-the-toilet-with-a-6-year-old-b oy-in-drag-ospy"

Why not? I mean, unless you're suggesting that 6 year olds are going to be having sex, in which case...
 ಠ_ಠ
6 year olds, dude.


How about I don't want my child seeing ANY Penis' that age unless they own one, period. I do not care what little snowflake thinks it is or is not, the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room. If the asstard parents decide they wanted a girl and then instead of trying for one went and dressed the boy up like a girl, that is between them and the child, however, the rest of the world does not need to conform to their twisted views.
 
2013-02-28 10:37:38 AM
I agree that it would be horrible to just throw surgeries and hormone treatments at "those weird kids" every time one of em put on a dress.

Good thing its a pretty well understood mental disorder diagnosed by mental health professionals.
 
2013-02-28 10:37:50 AM

ginandbacon: Wow. Fark has been really a quite nasty place to be the last few days. At least Coy has parents who listen to her and stand up for her.


Haven't you heard, the more pessimistic and bitter your the longer you live. We're shooting for immortality here.
 
2013-02-28 10:38:13 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.


That's transsexual. Gender is in your head, sex is between your legs.
 
2013-02-28 10:38:16 AM

sno man: There is a story of a kid (I think) from Saskatchewan that had a botched circumcision back in the late 60's. Bad enough that they weren't able to save what was left and the decision was made that the kid would surgically become a girl, and simply raised that way. So from about 6 months or so the kid was a girl. Around the time the kid was 5 (he) tore off his dress, destroyed all his dolls and stole his brothers toy cars. He was pretty messed up and eventually took his own life. My point was just because you look like a thing doesn't make you that thing. And kids know, they may not have enough experience or context to express it all that well, but they know.


This is a completely unrelated example though.
Rheimer never showed any psychological signs of being female.  He was born male, his body was male, and his mind was male, he just had an accident. The fact that it was impossible for him to live as a girl is evidence in support of the idea that gender is ingrained, and that the people who exhibit signs of being trans at an early age cannot live in their genetic-gender.
 
2013-02-28 10:38:21 AM

Calehedron: Theaetetus: loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.

And they're also unsanitary and lack privacy. What's wrong with stalls?

Unsanitary?  Are you eating off of it?  You are pissing into it, no touching involved with most new auto flushers.  You sit on a toilet, maybe use the paper ass gaskets.

As for privacy, most have small partitions to keep meat gazers to a minimum.  Stall doors and locks have been handled post wipe but pre-wash.


you are heading in the right direction, future rest rooms will be unisex and all individual rooms
 
2013-02-28 10:38:35 AM

atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex


Your stalls musta had some holes in the wall
 
2013-02-28 10:38:43 AM
Dafuq? Six, and transgendered - really?

Dunno about the rest of you farkers, but I sure as hell didn't have a gender identity at that point in my life, one way or the other.
 
2013-02-28 10:38:56 AM

sno man: ha-ha-guy: Transgendered at six?  What did the parents catch the kid playing dressup in his sister's clothes one day and just go full retard or something?  Seems way to early to make the call on the kid and more like creepy parents grooming the kid to be a transgender or something that ends up on an extra farked up episode of Law and Order.

/also considering the kid has access to gender neutral facilities, not seeing the problem
//seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles and all that at 6 to make a decision
/I think thought girls were gross and had cooties back then, yet I grew out of that

There is a story of a kid (I think) from Saskatchewan that had a botched circumcision back in the late 60's.  Bad enough that they weren't able to save what was left and the decision was made that the kid would surgically become a girl, and simply raised that way.  So from about 6 months or so the kid was a girl.  Around the time the kid was 5 (he) tore off his dress, destroyed all his dolls and stole his brothers toy cars. He was pretty messed up and eventually took his own life.  My point was just because you look like a thing doesn't make you that thing.  And kids know, they may not have enough experience or context to express it all that well, but they know.


He also got subjected to what amounts to abuse by the doctor concerned, on a regular basis. He did not have a "normal" girl's life. So it is hard to draw firm conclusions just from that one case, although it is sad.
 
2013-02-28 10:39:29 AM
Welcome Kathryn!  First off, why don't you tell us a little about you and your family.I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!).  Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).  I work full time at home as Lily's nurse as well as being a professional photographer outside the home.  My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012.
- See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.bMgs X miw.dpuf Check out this interview with the mom (who's pretty hot). Looks like they're got a pretty farked up family all the way around:

http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/
 
2013-02-28 10:40:02 AM

atomicmask: Theaetetus: atomicmask: How about the treatment of "I-don't-want-my-6-year-old-daughter-in-the-toilet-with-a-6-year-old-b oy-in-drag-ospy"

Why not? I mean, unless you're suggesting that 6 year olds are going to be having sex, in which case...
 ಠ_ಠ
6 year olds, dude.

How about I don't want my child seeing ANY Penis' that age unless they own one, period. I do not care what little snowflake thinks it is or is not, the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex.


Sounds like you've got some weird sexual hangups and are projecting those on children, and that's just creepy.
 
2013-02-28 10:41:01 AM

atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.


Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?
 
2013-02-28 10:41:23 AM

atomicmask: Name the mental illness...

1. unwarranted sense of importance and paranoia
2. Lack of empathy for others
3. delusions and a skewed sense of reality
4. strange behavior and illogical behavior


Oh, I know this one: "Projection."
 
2013-02-28 10:41:25 AM

Ned Stark: Good thing its a pretty well understood mental disorder diagnosed by mental health professionals.


Actually, it's not.

[the more you know.jpg]
 
2013-02-28 10:41:41 AM

orbister: Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?

Perhaps "Be tolerant, loving, and accepting, just as she was when the kid was six"?


or scream at the kiding

orbister: Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?

Perhaps "Be tolerant, loving, and accepting, just as she was when the kid was six"?


.......or disown him as a sell out that caved into society's pressures . Whatever works.
 
2013-02-28 10:41:56 AM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex

Your stalls musta had some holes in the wall


They're called Tea Rooms, I believe.
 
2013-02-28 10:42:14 AM

Theaetetus: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.

Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?


no, what do you do at your house? Do you all pile up in the bathroom at the same time and piss in shiat by crowding around the 1 toilet while trying to act casual? In my house we typically shut the door and lock it when its occupied.
 
2013-02-28 10:42:56 AM
Chicks with dicks: Kindergarten Edition
 
2013-02-28 10:43:10 AM

MelGoesOnTour: Welcome Kathryn!  First off, why don't you tell us a little about you and your family.I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!).  Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).  I work full time at home as Lily's nurse as well as being a professional photographer outside the home.  My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012.
- See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.bMgs X miw.dpuf Check out this interview with the mom (who's pretty hot). Looks like they're got a pretty farked up family all the way around:

http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/


I missed the part about being knocked up again. Let's all meet back here in a few years and see what's wrong with the new one. Wagers?
 
2013-02-28 10:43:21 AM
I swear....some of you are so "open-mind", your brains are leaking out.
 
2013-02-28 10:43:26 AM

loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.


I must have gone to the same bass-ackwards school.  We had various combinations of metal and porcelain troughs from elementary through high school.  Didn't seem to have anything to do with the age of either the school or addition.  Some had typical urinals, others had troughs.  Just the way it was.

thenumber5:

how about, can you pee standing up, go in this room. If not, you go to this room.....

My sister could pee standing up quite easily, although through a jeans fly was out of the question.  Had a girlfriend who could also do it.  (Different people, btw)
 
2013-02-28 10:43:46 AM

Kiwimann: Yay, another transgender thread.  Make with all your vitriol.  I'll be elsewhere.


I don't think there is any vitriol. Just many of us questioning if a 6 year old child is capable of making a major gender identifying decision.
 
2013-02-28 10:43:56 AM

atomicmask: Theaetetus: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.

Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?

no, what do you do at your house? Do you all pile up in the bathroom at the same time and piss in shiat by crowding around the 1 toilet while trying to act casual? In my house we typically shut the door and lock it when its occupied.


So, you do the exact same thing I suggested waaaaaay up thread - stalls with doors for everyone, and non-gender segregated bathrooms. Then what's your problem, Sparky?
 
2013-02-28 10:44:06 AM

Kann: I am fully in support of LGBT rights, but in this case a six year old does not have a clear enough understanding of him/herself to be making these decisions.

I have to agree with earlier posters in that the mother here is way screwed up.

tfa says the kid prefers pink... cool nothing wrong with that, he likes girl toys fine... but in no way does he need to be using the girls restroom at age 6 in an elementary school...

These parents are as bad as pageant parents in projecting their own screwed up psych on the kids


I have to agree, six years-old seems way too damn young to be struggling with gender issues.

Something else is going on in that house.
 
2013-02-28 10:44:17 AM

atomicmask: How about I don't want my child seeing ANY Penis' that age unless they own one, period. I do not care what little snowflake thinks it is or is not, the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room. If the asstard parents decide they wanted a girl and then instead of trying for one went and dressed the boy up like a girl, that is between them and the child, however, the rest of the world does not need to conform to their twisted views.


In the UK it is normal for children to use the same changing room (at swimming pools and so on) as their accompanying adult until they are eight.
 
2013-02-28 10:44:53 AM
Did someone call dibs on the right half of that website?
 
2013-02-28 10:45:20 AM

Theaetetus: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.

Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?



Of for f*ck's sake.

Your point is weak and you know it....his house has unisex bathrooms.....JUST LIKE A GAS STATION.
 
2013-02-28 10:45:40 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Kiwimann: Yay, another transgender thread.  Make with all your vitriol.  I'll be elsewhere.

I don't think there is any vitriol. Just many of us questioning if a 6 year old child is capable of making a major gender identifying decision.


Since no one is suggesting surgery for the kid, I'm not sure that this is a "major" decision.
 
2013-02-28 10:46:21 AM

starsrift: Dunno about the rest of you farkers, but I sure as hell didn't have a gender identity at that point in my life, one way or the other.


Really? You wore dresses and trousers more-or-less equally, played with dolls and footballs more or less equally, wore your hair cut short and in bunches more-or-less equally?
 
2013-02-28 10:46:37 AM

The_Sponge: Theaetetus: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.

Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?


Of for f*ck's sake.

Your point is weak strong and you know it....his house has unisex bathrooms.....JUST LIKE A GAS STATION.


FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.
 
2013-02-28 10:46:46 AM

CarloSkippy: My sister could pee standing up quite easily


I have no clue how any of my sisters pee, and I'm very thankful for that.

/ I assume they pee sitting down, but now I'm dwelling on the topic. Damn you, CarloSkippy, damn you to hell.
 
2013-02-28 10:47:04 AM

atomicmask: no, what do you do at your house? Do you all pile up in the bathroom at the same time and piss in shiat by crowding around the 1 toilet while trying to act casual? In my house we typically shut the door and lock it when its occupied.


You mean.... other people...don't do that?

*note to self

TheDumbBlonde: I missed the part about being knocked up again. Let's all meet back here in a few years and see what's wrong with the new one. Wagers?


What's the over/under
 
2013-02-28 10:47:47 AM
What if, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe the kid is transgendered, allowing her to sit down to pee in the privacy of the stalls in the girls washroom isn't a bad thing, and maybe what's called for is a little help and understanding for those of us that aren't standard model.
 
2013-02-28 10:47:47 AM

MelGoesOnTour: My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012.


4 kids before the dad even finishes college?  Really?  Okay well to be fair it was two but the second batch was unusually large.

Also am I the only one who is wondering if she was improperly fertility drugs or something of that nature given she popped out three kids at one and all three have issues?
 
2013-02-28 10:47:59 AM
Why segregate genders at all at that age? Why do sexual organs have to be the deciding factor?  Why not have gender neutral bathrooms where the only qualification to use it is if you have a colon and urethra or medical facsimile?
 
2013-02-28 10:48:13 AM

orbister: wore your hair cut short and in bunches more-or-less equally?


blogs-images.forbes.com 
Proud.
 
2013-02-28 10:48:22 AM

loaba: ginandbacon: Wow. Fark has been really a quite nasty place to be the last few days. At least Coy has parents who listen to her and stand up for her.

If by her you mean him, then yeah, he's the luckiest kid on the planet...


No, I mean her. SHE identifies as female.
 
2013-02-28 10:48:38 AM

MelGoesOnTour: Welcome Kathryn!  First off, why don't you tell us a little about you and your family.I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!).  Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).  I work full time at home as Lily's nurse as well as being a professional photographer outside the home.  My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012.
- See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.bMgs X miw.dpuf Check out this interview with the mom (who's pretty hot). Looks like they're got a pretty farked up family all the way around:

http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/


Marrying a close relative can cause a lot of genetic issues...
 
2013-02-28 10:48:42 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: I don't think there is any vitriol. Just many of us questioning if a 6 year old child is capable of making a major gender identifying decision.


What, like, "I've got a penis and therefore I must be a boy even though I don't feel like a boy"?
 
2013-02-28 10:49:43 AM
cheyanne9:you are heading in the right direction, future rest rooms will be unisex and all individual rooms

Parents went to Europe in the late 1970s.  One place, they found a restroom labeled men and women.  It led to all individual stalls.  After doing their business, they found themselves in the same restroom washing hands next to each other.  It was one facility with two doors.
 
2013-02-28 10:50:06 AM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: atomicmask: no, what do you do at your house? Do you all pile up in the bathroom at the same time and piss in shiat by crowding around the 1 toilet while trying to act casual? In my house we typically shut the door and lock it when its occupied.

You mean.... other people...don't do that?

*note to self

TheDumbBlonde: I missed the part about being knocked up again. Let's all meet back here in a few years and see what's wrong with the new one. Wagers?

What's the over/under


that should be a feature on fark - a tab and follow-up for easy access
 
2013-02-28 10:50:27 AM
The boy is too young to decide his bedtime, much less his sexuality.

I support the school, there is no way the little boy gets to use the little girls room - regardless of what he thinks his reasons are.
 
2013-02-28 10:50:47 AM
Liberals are funny and sad at the same time...
 
2013-02-28 10:50:55 AM
I really wanted to be Spiderman when I was 6.

/I know... totally different
//if I had yo guess, I'd say Mom is off-the-charts insane
 
2013-02-28 10:51:23 AM

Theaetetus: loaba: Theaetetus: I don't see why it's an issue. Just get rid of the group pissing trough in the boy's bathroom and let everyone use a toilet stall with a door. Frankly, it'd be more sanitary anyway, and then it wouldn't matter what parts you have.

What the hell bass-ackwards school did you go to? Wall urinals, man. They're, like, typical and stuff.

And they're also unsanitary and lack privacy. What's wrong with stalls?



A urinal is more unsanitary than something people shiat and vomit in? Don't think so. It's pee - you can use it to clean wounds and even drink it in a life or death situation. Urinals are also easier to clean thoroughly in comparison to toilets. I worked my way through school and am quite familiar with cleaning urinals.
As for what is wrong with stalls...nothing in particular except they take a LOT more room than urinals. A pretty common men's room arrangement might be two urinals and one stall. In a busy environment, three stalls do not adequately replace one stall and two urinals. They also require a room that is bigger than the one that exists currently. Imagine the cost to change all the bathrooms in a school to accommodate a no-urinals desire for one kid.  Big bucks, and for no return.
This girl is perfectly capable of using her penis to pee in a urinal. Girls and boys are perfectly capable of learning in the same classroom as each other. A person of one religion or mentality or another may come along and demand change, but society doesn't have to pay to accommodate every person's desires. Maybe I don't like to use multi-user restrooms at all. I was born that way and you can't prove I wasn't, even though I can't prove anything genetically either, but I DEMAND you install a number of private use bathrooms to accommodate my needs.
 The solution to this "problem" is home schooling.  Though that does not acheive any of the social activism goals that are the real agenda.  (internet - creative license, etc.)
 
2013-02-28 10:51:52 AM

The_Sponge: I swear....some of you are so "open-mind", your brains are leaking out.


That joke is scratched into the walls of the Lascaux Caves.

And right below it is a crack about having head that one from Lucy.
 
2013-02-28 10:52:11 AM
Wow, this thread is full of assholes.
 
2013-02-28 10:52:25 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.


This.

Has the kid got a pecker? Then the kid uses the boy's room. End of story.
 
2013-02-28 10:52:35 AM

Nurglitch: What if, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe the kid is transgendered, allowing her to sit down to pee in the privacy of the stalls in the girls washroom isn't a bad thing, and maybe what's called for is a little help and understanding for those of us that aren't standard model.


Enabling deranged parents abuse of their children isn't helping.
 
2013-02-28 10:52:39 AM

Private_Citizen: The boy is too young to decide his bedtime, much less his sexuality.


Why do you think this has anything to do with sexuality?
 
2013-02-28 10:52:45 AM
i303.photobucket.com

You know what really grinds my gears?  When I was a member at the YMCA in Bothell, Washington, girls 6 and younger were allowed in the men's locker room.  It's friggin' awkward as hell.  I don't give a damn if dad has to take little Suzy to swimming lessons....have mommy take her.  And don't get me started about the old guys who would walk around naked for hours....even Herbert the Pervert wasn't that bad.  And that's what really grinds my gears.
 
2013-02-28 10:53:05 AM

loaba: CarloSkippy: I have no clue how any of my sisters pee, and I'm very thankful for that.

/ I assume they pee sitting down, but now I'm dwelling on the topic. Damn you, CarloSkippy, damn you to hell.


I assume all of your sisters pee.
 
2013-02-28 10:53:27 AM
Actually more as I think about it, I keep thinking of all those studies about how caregivers tend to have mental issues.  Being a nurse 24/7 tends to create problems.  Mom here has one kid who is brain damaged and two others with varying levels of autism.  The mom is crazy thing just starts making more sense.
 
2013-02-28 10:53:52 AM

ha-ha-guy: Supposedly even post transition they're still at a much higher risk rate for depression. The debate seems to focus on how much of that is from internal issues the transition didn't help with versus society being dicks to them.


True, but I'd have no problem betting my life savings that item #2 plays a huge role.

ha-ha-guy: That said though the consensus seems to be that within a few decades there will be a medical option for catching gender issues early and just rewiring the brain to match the physical parts and parents may have to make that call early.

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
Is not too keen on your Psychotactic treatments.

Seriously though, being transgender is definitely no fun, but rewiring your brain to remove it is essentially wiping your personhood out of existence. Even if the medical technology were available (and I highly doubt that it will be anytime soon.) I don't think I could ever feel justified in actively reprogramming my child's mind.
 
2013-02-28 10:54:16 AM

Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.



ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.
 
2013-02-28 10:55:25 AM

ginandbacon: No, I mean her. SHE identifies as female.


Well his parents certainly choose to identify him that way. All the kid knows is that whatever he's doing, its making mom and dad happy. He probably loves the hell out of that.

/ too bad mom and dad are bat-shiate crazy.

// kids at that age generally just want to be happy and to be encouraged by their parents. They're also extremely malleable.
 
2013-02-28 10:56:03 AM

shkkmo


Wow, this thread is full of assholes.



images3.wikia.nocookie.net

pic is borrowed
 
2013-02-28 10:56:53 AM

CarloSkippy: loaba: CarloSkippy: I have no clue how any of my sisters pee, and I'm very thankful for that.

/ I assume they pee sitting down, but now I'm dwelling on the topic. Damn you, CarloSkippy, damn you to hell.

I assume all of your sisters pee.


Doh! I read that as "how many of my sisters pee."  <sigh>
 
2013-02-28 10:57:09 AM

Stinkyy: Another poster: "Kid wants to wear a dress? Why should the school stand in her way?  It's because we have norms, you stupid G.D.'d retard.  You don't get to pick and choose what laws we have here, do you?


I don't get to choose the laws there, but I do get to choose the laws here. Democracy, don't you just love it?

Whether a child wants to wear a dress or trousers, or identify as a boy or a girl is of no interest to me, and should be of no interest to the school. Schools are there to educate, not to enforce neanderthal social norms.
 
2013-02-28 10:57:10 AM

Theaetetus: orbister: wore your hair cut short and in bunches more-or-less equally?

[blogs-images.forbes.com image 210x300] 
Proud.


Are you trying to say that's really a DUDE!?!?!  MIND = BLOWN!!!
 
2013-02-28 10:57:24 AM

Big_Fat_Liar: A urinal is more unsanitary than something people shiat and vomit in? Don't think so. It's pee - you can use it to clean wounds and even drink it in a life or death situation. Urinals are also easier to clean thoroughly in comparison to toilets. I worked my way through school and am quite familiar with cleaning urinals.


I was referring more to the splash zone around them. Because ew.

As for what is wrong with stalls...nothing in particular except they take a LOT more room than urinals. A pretty common men's room arrangement might be two urinals and one stall. In a busy environment, three stalls do not adequately replace one stall and two urinals. They also require a room that is bigger than the one that exists currently. Imagine the cost to change all the bathrooms in a school to accommodate a no-urinals desire for one kid.  Big bucks, and for no return.

On the contrary, they could knock out the wall between the segregated restrooms and replace half the sinks with more stalls. You could actually end up with  more spaces.

This girl is perfectly capable of using her penis to pee in a urinal. Girls and boys are perfectly capable of learning in the same classroom as each other. A person of one religion or mentality or another may come along and demand change, but society doesn't have to pay to accommodate every person's desires. Maybe I don't like to use multi-user restrooms at all. I was born that way and you can't prove I wasn't, even though I can't prove anything genetically either, but I DEMAND you install a number of private use bathrooms to accommodate my needs.

As noted above, this accommodation is simple and efficient. Plus, it's not even the accommodation the people in the article are seeking, but my suggestion for the future. Their accommodation is simply that she gets to use the girl's room with their private stalls. No cost to anyone.
 
2013-02-28 10:57:44 AM

loaba: They're also extremely malleable.


That's why I'd like to know a LOT more about the parents.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:04 AM

The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.


blogs.scientificamerican.com
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:10 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: I don't think I could ever feel justified in actively reprogramming my child's mind.


What if he was a serial killer and tortured small animals but some pill could level out the aggression.  Which is not to say that transgenderism is comparable to such, but we do have set precedents for going in and rewiring.  Although those are done normally due to the fact the person is a threat to society, whereas a transgender is really only a threat to themselves (depression leading to self harm).  Yet I'd imagine a lot of parents would lobby to have access to the rewiring option and use it.

I have to admit it was something like "We can dump 5 gallons of stuff into your son and there is a 90% chance he goes through life happy as a man" vs "Well it will be a five year process, possibly a couple of surgeries, and a 20% chance of severe depression and social stigmatization afterwards", that's a tough choice to ponder.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:24 AM

shkkmo: Wow, this thread is full of assholes.


No dicks obviously though
 
2013-02-28 10:59:31 AM
"I used to like ponies but my daddy beat that out of me and I turned out fine" says way more about the armchair psychologist and how many beers he's had by this hour than the gender identity of a child he's never met and whether or not we'll all fit in that handbasket.

Oh but I'm sure Fark Commenter Man is just preparing to go out and rescue all those kittens from trees and then balance the budget.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:57 AM

orbister: starsrift: Dunno about the rest of you farkers, but I sure as hell didn't have a gender identity at that point in my life, one way or the other.

Really? You wore dresses and trousers more-or-less equally, played with dolls and footballs more or less equally, wore your hair cut short and in bunches more-or-less equally?


No to the first one, but otherwise, yes.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:02 AM

ck1938: Nurglitch: What if, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe the kid is transgendered, allowing her to sit down to pee in the privacy of the stalls in the girls washroom isn't a bad thing, and maybe what's called for is a little help and understanding for those of us that aren't standard model.

Enabling deranged parents abuse of their children isn't helping.


Sorry, I missed the part in the article where the parents had the child taken away because they were abusing her.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:07 AM

orbister: Stinkyy: Another poster: "Kid wants to wear a dress? Why should the school stand in her way?  It's because we have norms, you stupid G.D.'d retard.  You don't get to pick and choose what laws we have here, do you?

I don't get to choose the laws there, but I do get to choose the laws here. Democracy, don't you just love it?

Whether a child wants to wear a dress or trousers, or identify as a boy or a girl is of no interest to me, and should be of no interest to the school. Schools are there to educate, not to enforce neanderthal social norms.


Reality is very different, Son.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:30 AM

Brubold: Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.

This.

Has the kid got a pecker? Then the kid uses the boy's room. End of story.


Its not like we can put tits on a six year old

.....I mean technically medical science can but there's that nagging thing called ethics
 
2013-02-28 11:01:42 AM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


Well clearly at that time Coy will be a lesbian...with a penis. No need for rubber strap-ons or dildos. It's the new eco-sensitive solution to lesbian sex. Go green.
 
2013-02-28 11:02:31 AM
Are we not going to talk about the name "Coy" in the first place?
Was this covered in another thread?  Does that pass for normal elsewhere?
Or is it just not-farked-up-enough to register?
 
2013-02-28 11:03:07 AM

Theaetetus: The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.

[blogs.scientificamerican.com image 400x300]
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.



Stalls are not rooms, pal.
 
2013-02-28 11:04:24 AM

TheDumbBlonde: Reality is was very different, Son.


Fixed that for you, Grandma.
 
2013-02-28 11:05:28 AM

ringersol: Are we not going to talk about the name "Coy" in the first place?
Was this covered in another thread?  Does that pass for normal elsewhere?
Or is it just not-farked-up-enough to register?


When's she [he] is older and still pre-op, she can cup her package and blush. That'll be coy, alright...
 
2013-02-28 11:05:52 AM

The_Sponge: Theaetetus: The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.

[blogs.scientificamerican.com image 400x300]
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.


Stalls are not rooms, pal.


If the stall partitions extend to the floor and ceiling, as they do in some public restrooms, then is it not a room by definition?
 
2013-02-28 11:09:08 AM
I find this whole story to be strange. At what point did the little boy decide to dress and act like a little girl? Was this a choice the boy made or his parents made? Seems like something one would decide later in life after said person had finished developing (physically and mentally).
 
2013-02-28 11:09:43 AM

ha-ha-guy: sudo give me more cowbell: I don't think I could ever feel justified in actively reprogramming my child's mind.

What if he was a serial killer and tortured small animals but some pill could level out the aggression.  Which is not to say that transgenderism is comparable to such, but we do have set precedents for going in and rewiring.  Although those are done normally due to the fact the person is a threat to society, whereas a transgender is really only a threat to themselves (depression leading to self harm).  Yet I'd imagine a lot of parents would lobby to have access to the rewiring option and use it.

I have to admit it was something like "We can dump 5 gallons of stuff into your son and there is a 90% chance he goes through life happy as a man" vs "Well it will be a five year process, possibly a couple of surgeries, and a 20% chance of severe depression and social stigmatization afterwards", that's a tough choice to ponder.


Yeah, ok. I overstated when I said I'd never feel justified in reprogramming my child's mind. If they were a serial killer or something like that, then sure, of course I would try to remove those kinds of impulses.

But I'm still convinced that the overwhelming majority of the depression/self-harm that is seen in transgendered people is the result of societal dickishness. I also think that we really ought to take a look at some history on a similar theme: Not so long ago homosexuality was seen as a deviant mental illness that needed to be treated and purged chemicall (as a "compassionate measure" of course) because such people couldn't possibly live happy lives. Now we can clearly see that there are lots of very happy gay people, and that the problem was ours, not theirs.

Of course, I'm not saying transgenderism and homosexuality are interchangeable concepts -they're not, and they get mixed up all too often- but the historical lesson still seems apt.
 
2013-02-28 11:10:02 AM
Just change the signs from "little boys" and "little girls" to "little penises" and "little vaginas".  Problem solved.
 
2013-02-28 11:12:12 AM
News flash:  The part we made up is whether "boys" or "girls" wear dresses or have their hair cut in a specific way.  Your genetics are your genetics, the rest is trained.  You aren't a "girl" just for liking "girly" things.  You're a boy who prefers girly things, probably because of your overbearing and ridiculous mother.  We didn't make up your penis, we made up the stupid idea that vaginas are associated with fashion:
si.wsj.net

musicals:
images.zap2it.com

dolls:

pictures.picpedia.com

and cooking:

static.guim.co.uk

long hair

cdn.zmemusic.com

and elaborate dresses and hats

images.theage.com.au
 
2013-02-28 11:14:29 AM
I have a nephew that thought he was a lion at that age and would roar at people. Did we send him to the Serengeti to live with the other beasts? of course not. We let it work itself and he grew into the perfect little self-centered asshole teen that he is today.
 
2013-02-28 11:15:27 AM
Six?  yea he's going to think that he's whatever gender his parents tell him he is.  That family is completely farking screwed.  Is this the family?
www.the-filmreel.com
That kid is sooooooo farking screwed and it has nothing to do with gender identity.  Judging by this thread we should be prescribing sex changes for toddlers.
 
2013-02-28 11:15:36 AM
:::Sigh::: OK, people. Due to the overwhelmingmajority of morons in our society, today, bathrooms will no longer be labled as men's / women's or boys / girls. From now on they will be labled as Penises / Vaginas. Hermaphrodites will have their choice to use either. So, whether it's the genitalia you were born with, or  aquired through surgery, what's between your legs will decide which restroom you use. That is all. Carry on.
 
2013-02-28 11:18:09 AM
Got a dick? stand up at the urinal.
Not got a dick? sit down on the pan.

When you are 18 you can choose what to wear and what to call yourself just like everyone else. It`s something to look forward to.

It`s that simple.

You can now carry on with the mouth frothing.
 
2013-02-28 11:18:12 AM

Theaetetus: As for what is wrong with stalls...nothing in particular except they take a LOT more room than urinals. A pretty common men's room arrangement might be two urinals and one stall. In a busy environment, three stalls do not adequately replace one stall and two urinals. They also require a room that is bigger than the one that exists currently. Imagine the cost to change all the bathrooms in a school to accommodate a no-urinals desire for one kid. Big bucks, and for no return.

On the contrary, they could knock out the wall between the segregated restrooms and replace half the sinks with more stalls. You could actually end up with more spaces.


Hahahahah, that will never happen....because it makes way too much sense...
 
2013-02-28 11:18:53 AM

Marine1: Dude... it's a six-year-old. That could change again after puberty; who knows.


Who knows?  Gosh, that's a puzzler.  Maybe you should search Google or something on the off chance somebody's studied that question already.
 
2013-02-28 11:18:54 AM

JohnnyC: I find this whole story to be strange. At what point did the little boy decide to dress and act like a little girl? Was this a choice the boy made or his parents made? Seems like something one would decide later in life after said person had finished developing (physically and mentally).


This isn't a little boy. She is a little girl who happened to be born into a body with the wrong appendages. Most children have a very firm gender identity by about 2 or 3 years old (which is coincidentally when society starts applying gender norms on children.) If you do a bit of research, you will see that this situation is not unusual for transgender people. They tend to know and be able to express their gender at a very young age. It takes very loving and accepting parents to nurture them in their journey given how horrifically our culture handles trans issues. Just look at this thread.
 
2013-02-28 11:19:05 AM
www.whiteninjacomics.com

As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied. Not because he's transgender, specifically, but just because there's an obvious external difference. That's what kids do - in large part due to kids being the literal definition of immature. Likewise, I find it hard to believe that a 6 year old could have a fully-formed gender identity - of EITHER gender.

When I read the parent's claims, "she has told the world what would be obvious to anyone who spends a minute with her that she is a little girl," it set off huge warning flags. Wearing a dress, liking dolls, or pink barbie dream houses (for example) do not make you 'female'. These are culture-specific external customs that do not in any real way define gender - they are learned classifications. In fact, if you were to take the unofficial transgender credo to heart, it's what's inside the head that matters, and that's not something that can be easily or accurately expressed naturally - it'd certainly take more than a minute to figure out what's really going on in someone's head.

On the other hand, an individual could exuberantly and artificially act it out. They could deliberately use all the learned cultural trends that indicate 'female', and be overly blatant in their display. The issue with this though is that it IS just an act. I mean, I always wanted to be a dinosaur when I was little, I just happened to be born in a human body. Anyone who spent a minute with me would have thought not that I WAS a dinosaur, but rather that I wanted people to think I was. Whether or not I really thought I was one, whether my brain ~really~ worked that way, and whether I was resolute in my feelings was not something that could be expressed easily through this acting out. ... and the next week I wanted to be a jet fighter pilot anyway.

Kids are really good at playing pretend, without necessarily understanding all the personal and social ramifications of what they're pretending to be.

So;
1 - The kid is too immature to have made such an expert evaluation of his/her sense of self which such significant life-affecting ramifications.
2 - I think this is some sort of acting, even if it coincidentally does turn out to match his/her gender identity later in life.
3 - As long as we live in a society that sees the physical differences between men and women as sexual and/or vulgar - or important outside of the shape of clothes and such - then there will be a need demanded by society to segregate based on actual, physical appearance. I don't see this changing anytime soon.

second to last;
Check out this video of iO Tllet Wright explaining in part her transition from female to male back to female, along with gay, bi, and eventually arriving at 'I don't know, it doesn't matter, and binary choices are obviously wrong.' It might make you question whether or not single-gender classifications are even a valid way to identify someone.

... and last: Is it just me, or do we put WAAAAY too much focus on gender issues? To much of our concept of self wrapped up in it? In such a brittle shell that the beliefs of strangers affect our personal values? Is it just a sex-as-intercourse bias that wraps around all this? Aren't they just stupid and arbitrary divisions as unrepresentative of the person as the color of their skin when it comes to sense of self worth?

/ no homo
 
2013-02-28 11:19:05 AM

untaken_name: Wow, that kid's parents must be MESSED up.

Yes.  I am sure they think they are "protecting" their precious little snowflakes ego all while setting him up for a lifetime of difficulty.

 
2013-02-28 11:21:26 AM
As for the Mom making the kid a girl, why this one and not her other boy?

I have kids. When my eldest boy was 3 or so, he had a big sister and a little sister. He liked to wear dresses. He outgrew that by 4 or 5. A 6 yr old knows if they feel like a boy or a girl. 
This is gender we're talking about. Not sexuality. Totally different things.

My younger daughter often says that she's a terrible girl. She hates dresses, make up, dolls, anything traditionally girly. She has still always known she was a girl.
 
2013-02-28 11:21:32 AM

Private_Citizen: The boy is too young to decide his bedtime, much less his sexuality.

I support the school, there is no way the little boy gets to use the little girls room - regardless of what he thinks his reasons are.


The big city closest to my suburb just passed the 'bathroom bill'.  It took exactly two days for a grown male to enter the female shower room at a local fitness club where several women were showering.  They complained, the cops showed up, apparantly they told the guy to leave the premises but could not arrest him or cite him for anything.  I'm sure the A-hol3 that walked into the shower room was trying to make a point and not just getting his jollies.

I don't think we will be going to the city as much as we used to.  Maybe I'm just too old, I'm not OK with my wife and daughter using a bathroom that a unknown male can just walk into anytime they feel like it.
 
2013-02-28 11:24:01 AM
to those saying sex isnt gender: the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ. sorry but it is a fact.
 
2013-02-28 11:24:09 AM
 
2013-02-28 11:24:31 AM

abfalter: Yes.  I am sure they think they are "protecting" their precious little snowflakes ego all while setting him up for a lifetime of difficulty.


Do you yearn for a return of the days when parents would whip the gay out of their kids? With the buckle end.
 
2013-02-28 11:25:58 AM

Theaetetus: I was referring more to the splash zone around them. Because ew.


There is a wonderful new product called BLEACH. You might want to introduce it to the establishments you frequent...
 
2013-02-28 11:26:51 AM

orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?


So she's a boy.  Boy's restroom it is.
 
2013-02-28 11:28:35 AM
The schools have designated a separate bathroom the kid can use that wouldn't carry the risk of making anyone uncomfortable and that's not good enough for helicopter mom?  You must be kidding.

We had a guy where I worked who began gender reassessment.  Once he began the hormone treatments and developed female characteristics (breasts), the issue of "which bathroom and locker room should this person use?" became one we had to address.  Some guys were a little uncomfortable with someone who now identified as female being in the male bathroom and locker room.  Some women were uncomfortable with this person (who had not completed the surgeries) being in the women's bathroom and locker room.  So rather than force the issue either way, the organization spent a few dollars and had a single-user bathroom built that this employee could use.  Solved the problem and later when she completed the surgeries, no one had issues with her using the "regular" women's bathrooms.

I don't understand how the school providing access to a private bathroom for this kid isn't more than enough.
 
2013-02-28 11:28:56 AM
With a child so young, I think the parents tread a fine line between "understanding" and "overindulgent".
 
2013-02-28 11:30:07 AM

untaken_name: Wow, that kid's parents must be MESSED up.


THIS x infinity. The unisex bathroom was not good enough because the parents are using their kid for attention whoring purposes and to cash in.... pathetic. These parents are the reason i support birth control, too bad not enough morons are taking it.
 
2013-02-28 11:30:09 AM

GF named my left testicle thundercles: to those saying sex isnt gender: the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ.


I'll try using this statement when I ask Mrs. Henry for a beej tonight.
`Seriously, the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ. Let me pork your brain through your mouth.'
 
2013-02-28 11:30:19 AM

Mr Guy: News flash:  The part we made up is whether "boys" or "girls" wear dresses or have their hair cut in a specific way.  Your genetics are your genetics, the rest is trained.  You aren't a "girl" just for liking "girly" things.  You're a boy who prefers girly things, probably because of your overbearing and ridiculous mother.  We didn't make up your penis, we made up the stupid idea that vaginas are associated with fashion:


I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. We're still a few generations from working out this whole gender roles thing. The fields of cooking and combat have seen progress though.
 
2013-02-28 11:32:09 AM

quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.


This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.
 
2013-02-28 11:33:23 AM

StrangeQ: orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy

someone with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?

So she's a boy.  Boy's restroom it is.


Urinals are for people with dicks. Whatever they call themselves, if you have a dick you stand at the urinal. A 6 year old won`t find it that strange to stand with other people with the same genitals pissing. As they get older the other girls would show a lot of interest in their dick...

If you have a dick then the girls toilets are not the best place for you. Part of the screening for children is that they should not see genitals different from their own.

It`s really that simple. Get over it.
 
2013-02-28 11:34:29 AM

loaba: orbister: ha-ha-guy: //seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles

It's not a matter of choosing a role. It's a matter of knowing who you are.


At 6, he chooses to be whatever his parents encourage him to be. 'Cause he's farking 6 already.


It's funny how tenaciously, even desperately, people cling to old-fashioned notions of sex and gender no matter what the science actually says.  It's like Young-Earth creationists building museums to show Jesus riding a dinosaur.
 
2013-02-28 11:34:33 AM

Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.


How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.
 
2013-02-28 11:34:58 AM

ginandbacon: This isn't a little boy. She is a little girl who happened to be born into a body with the wrong appendages.


Just seems that prior to puberty, deciding that one will act/dress/portray one's gender as the opposite of what it really is, is a really bad idea. Seems more nurture than nature to me at this point.
 
PJ-
2013-02-28 11:36:16 AM
Any guy in this thread that is saying shared washrooms are a good thing are straight up insane.  Have you not noticed lineups for the female washrooms, pretty much anywhere?  They ALWAYS have a line, and the line moves slow as all HELL.  While the male washroom usually doesn't have a line, but if it's between periods/innings/halftime, there will be a line, but it moves quite fast.  That's exactly what I want, one big washroom that has a HUGE line that moves slow as all hell.
 
2013-02-28 11:37:30 AM

orbister: he's a boy with a neurological disorder, not a girl with male genitals


FTFY
 
2013-02-28 11:37:59 AM
This boy's parents should be whipped and the school should offer a "Chicks With Dicks" restroom option.
 
2013-02-28 11:38:21 AM

ciberido: loaba: orbister: ha-ha-guy: //seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles

It's not a matter of choosing a role. It's a matter of knowing who you are.


At 6, he chooses to be whatever his parents encourage him to be. 'Cause he's farking 6 already.

It's funny how tenaciously, even desperately, people cling to old-fashioned notions of sex and gender no matter what the science actually says.  It's like Young-Earth creationists building museums to show Jesus riding a dinosaur.


Know how i know you have no kids?

/and should never
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 11:39:23 AM

ciberido: Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.

*points and laughs at the stupid person*



Using 'stupid' does nothing to bolster your standing or opinion.

So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?
Even with the realization that it can be a defining choice with ramifications that can alter that persons entire life?
I would posit that 6 is a bit immature for such an issue to be concretely and permanently settled, and that by rushing the choice shows the people sanctioning such an early life-stage choice with such massive possible repercussions shows a lack of wisdom, maturity and sensitivity to the issue at hand.
 
2013-02-28 11:39:24 AM
dready zim: Elementary schools don't usually have urinals in the restrooms.
 
2013-02-28 11:39:49 AM

PJ-: Any guy in this thread that is saying shared washrooms are a good thing are straight up insane.  Have you not noticed lineups for the female washrooms, pretty much anywhere?  They ALWAYS have a line, and the line moves slow as all HELL.  While the male washroom usually doesn't have a line, but if it's between periods/innings/halftime, there will be a line, but it moves quite fast.  That's exactly what I want, one big washroom that has a HUGE line that moves slow as all hell.


Well all the men will use the urinals and the women will be in the stalls to piss. How about a separate place for men to just shiat? It will remove a bad thing from the place men and women piss and the queue speed will not affect men shiatting or pissing?

Also the men with shame about their small dicks will piss where everyone shiats which is just funny.
 
2013-02-28 11:40:53 AM

Earpj: dready zim: Elementary schools don't usually have urinals in the restrooms.


Every school I have ever been to has had urinals, even when I was six.
 
2013-02-28 11:41:06 AM

ciberido: It's funny how tenaciously, even desperately, people cling to old-fashioned notions of sex and gender no matter what the science actually says.  It's like Young-Earth creationists building museums to show Jesus riding a dinosaur.


You want your boy-child to wear a dress? Okay; here's how you do it. Make dresses available to him and actively encourage him to wear them. Watch as he does what makes you happy.

It's just that simple. By the age of 6, he'll sure think he's a girl.
 
2013-02-28 11:41:17 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: hey call those boys, from where I was raised.


StrangeQ: So she's a boy.  Boy's restroom it is.


GanjSmokr: Does it have a penis or a vagina?

That's really the only question that needs to be asked here.

I don't care what you (or your mom) thinks you are, nature has actually given you a pretty big clue as to what you actually are if you just look down.



Came to the thread to watch the uh, "slow ones" that don't understand the difference between sex and gender, leaving---pretty disturbed by all the bigotry and ignorance. Seriously, people, go read something.


atomicmask: How about I don't want my child seeing ANY Penis' that age unless they own one, period. I do not care what little snowflake thinks it is or is not, the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex.



And, atomicmask wins the thread's creepy "Overly Focused On Other Children's Sex Organs" award.
 
2013-02-28 11:41:55 AM

PJ-: Any guy in this thread that is saying shared washrooms are a good thing are straight up insane.  Have you not noticed lineups for the female washrooms, pretty much anywhere?  They ALWAYS have a line, and the line moves slow as all HELL.  While the male washroom usually doesn't have a line, but if it's between periods/innings/halftime, there will be a line, but it moves quite fast.  That's exactly what I want, one big washroom that has a HUGE line that moves slow as all hell.



CSB:

Years ago, I was at this tequila bar in Seattle, and I was the only guy using the men's room.  As I was washing my hands, this drunk chick flings the door open and says:

"I have to pee, the women's room is packed, and I'm using this bathroom, and I don't care!"

It was amusing as hell that her big declaration only had an audience of one.....me.  So I smirked and walked out.  Of course, if I had burst into the women's room at a bar, somebody might have called the cops.
 
2013-02-28 11:42:10 AM
dready zim:
Every school I have ever been to has had urinals, even when I was six.

Weird. None of ours have.
 
2013-02-28 11:42:35 AM
Was there ever a time when people just farked in private?

Like......regular, straight people farking or leather whips and chains farking.....doesn't matter.....but did people ever just not farking talk about it publicly? Did they go about their lives not sharing intimate details with complete strangers?

Because that would be awesome if we, as a society, embraced that.

We should also stop being dicks to gays and tranny's, and dark skinned people, and people who wear religious clothing that looks silly to us.

//They may say I'm a dreamer.
///But I'm not the only one.
 
2013-02-28 11:42:54 AM

dready zim: PJ-: Any guy in this thread that is saying shared washrooms are a good thing are straight up insane.  Have you not noticed lineups for the female washrooms, pretty much anywhere?  They ALWAYS have a line, and the line moves slow as all HELL.  While the male washroom usually doesn't have a line, but if it's between periods/innings/halftime, there will be a line, but it moves quite fast.  That's exactly what I want, one big washroom that has a HUGE line that moves slow as all hell.

Well all the men will use the urinals and the women will be in the stalls to piss. How about a separate place for men to just shiat? It will remove a bad thing from the place men and women piss and the queue speed will not affect men shiatting or pissing?

Also the men with shame about their small dicks will piss where everyone shiats which is just funny.


Could always just still have it one big room with a bunch of stalls and then a line of urinals because honestly, most guys wouldn't give two shiats if a woman was staring at them while they were pissing, and most women wouldn't care to in the first place.
 
PJ-
2013-02-28 11:43:49 AM

dready zim: PJ-: Any guy in this thread that is saying shared washrooms are a good thing are straight up insane.  Have you not noticed lineups for the female washrooms, pretty much anywhere?  They ALWAYS have a line, and the line moves slow as all HELL.  While the male washroom usually doesn't have a line, but if it's between periods/innings/halftime, there will be a line, but it moves quite fast.  That's exactly what I want, one big washroom that has a HUGE line that moves slow as all hell.

Well all the men will use the urinals and the women will be in the stalls to piss. How about a separate place for men to just shiat? It will remove a bad thing from the place men and women piss and the queue speed will not affect men shiatting or pissing?

Also the men with shame about their small dicks will piss where everyone shiats which is just funny.


Then women start buying that piss adapter that allows them to piss at urinals?  What then huh?  Before you know it, women will be voting, being the CEO of high profile companies or elected to be Prime Minister of South Korea!

*shudder*
 
2013-02-28 11:46:00 AM

Earpj: dready zim:
Every school I have ever been to has had urinals, even when I was six.

Weird. None of ours have.


Do they have indoor plumbing?

My wife has worked at six elementary schools in three states, all had urinals.
 
2013-02-28 11:47:16 AM
I don't know what the right answer is.

I do know that when I was six, I really liked playing doctor with girls, and I really had no interest in having other boys around while I was playing doctor.

I know we never pushed boy or girl toys on our daughter.  She did gravitate towards traditional girls' toys at a very young age (2 maybe?).

I know this kid is going to have a hard time growing up, especially in school.  Kids are assholes.

I think the mother's heart is in the right place, but she comes across as goofy as a football bat.  The school is probably trying to "do the right thing", but it seems that there is a natural law that states anything a school system does must be done as ham fisted as possible.

The amount of passion this brings out in farkers is interesting.

I have added nothing of value to this thread, so I'm feeling pretty good about myself right now.
 
2013-02-28 11:50:40 AM
Children learn all about gender and assign roles to one another (and themselves, and their toys) by the age of 3-4.  Stop acting as though a six-year-old wouldn't know jack shiat about the whole thing.
 
2013-02-28 11:52:12 AM
Hope the parents realize, he will get his ass kicked more, bullied more, teased more as a boy-chick than just a boy who is weird.
 
2013-02-28 11:53:02 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: This is a completely unrelated example though.
Rheimer never showed any psychological signs of being female. He was born male, his body was male, and his mind was male, he just had an accident. The fact that it was impossible for him to live as a girl is evidence in support of the idea that gender is ingrained, and that the people who exhibit signs of being trans at an early age cannot live in their genetic-gender.


Which was the point I was making... He was born with a peener, but having it cut off at 6 months or so, would have no memory of having had one. So he looked like a girl, was dressed like a girl, generally treated like a girl and none of it took.  This story's kid has one, so she looked like a boy, would have been generally treated like a boy and none of it took there either...  Gender is ingrained, and nearly always matches the physical parts, but not always.
 
2013-02-28 11:53:42 AM

JohnnyC: the opposite of what it really is


This is a statement you need to rethink and rephrase. She experiences life as a girl. Her body doesn't reflect that. Which is reality? Her feelings or the fact that she has a penis? This is a very serious question. Do you honestly think that her genitalia are more important than her own identity?
 
2013-02-28 11:53:58 AM
Why DO men's bathrooms have urinals?

I mean, why not just use the regular stalls? Is it a speed thing?

The_Sponge: PJ-: Any guy in this thread that is saying shared washrooms are a good thing are straight up insane.  Have you not noticed lineups for the female washrooms, pretty much anywhere?  They ALWAYS have a line, and the line moves slow as all HELL.  While the male washroom usually doesn't have a line, but if it's between periods/innings/halftime, there will be a line, but it moves quite fast.  That's exactly what I want, one big washroom that has a HUGE line that moves slow as all hell.


CSB:

Years ago, I was at this tequila bar in Seattle, and I was the only guy using the men's room.  As I was washing my hands, this drunk chick flings the door open and says:

"I have to pee, the women's room is packed, and I'm using this bathroom, and I don't care!"

It was amusing as hell that her big declaration only had an audience of one.....me.  So I smirked and walked out.  Of course, if I had burst into the women's room at a bar, somebody might have called the cops.


I always do that, particularly at bars and clubs. The only people who seem to care are the other women waiting in line in front of me who think its a travesty that I refuse to wait on the women's line. Even if I walk in and guys are already at the urinal, they don't seem to care either.
 
2013-02-28 11:54:06 AM
*family meeting at the PC house commune*

`Coy, I understand your school isn't allowing you to use the girl's room.'

`It's not a big deal, Mom. They'll letting me use a single-seater unisex one.'

`Now Coy - this is a cop-out and an insult to your gender-identity. And don't call me "Mom" - it stigmatizes our relationship!'

`Fine, Moonflower. Can I untuck my junk now? My balls are killing me.'

`No. You made the decision to identify as female and signed the declaration papers.'

`Nuts.'
 
2013-02-28 11:54:47 AM

Joe Blowme: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.


Gingers get beat up in England all the time. So that means that a responsible parent would dye their kid's hair black, right?
 
2013-02-28 11:55:02 AM

thenumber5: I have no issue with transsexuals

but this really becoming a tyranny of the minority situation

Use the wrong pronoun and your nailed to the cross, try to draw lines based on simple biological systems, nailed to the cross

how about, can you pee standing up, go in this room. If not, you go to this room.....


You have no issues, you claim right before the rest of your post, which lists off the issues you claim you don't have with transgendered people.

How about attempting a shred of respect for the wishes of people around you?
 
2013-02-28 11:55:23 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: hey call those boys, from where I was raised.

StrangeQ: So she's a boy.  Boy's restroom it is.

GanjSmokr: Does it have a penis or a vagina?

That's really the only question that needs to be asked here.

I don't care what you (or your mom) thinks you are, nature has actually given you a pretty big clue as to what you actually are if you just look down.


Came to the thread to watch the uh, "slow ones" that don't understand the difference between sex and gender, leaving---pretty disturbed by all the bigotry and ignorance. Seriously, people, go read something.


atomicmask: How about I don't want my child seeing ANY Penis' that age unless they own one, period. I do not care what little snowflake thinks it is or is not, the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex.


And, atomicmask wins the thread's creepy "Overly Focused On Other Children's Sex Organs" award.


Screw it.  You've changed my mind.  I'm going to start using whatever restroom I feel like.  It really doesn't matter that I have a penis, right?  Apparently that's not how we tell male/female apart anymore.  If anyone feels I'm in the wrong restroom, I'll refer them to your post here and tell them they're just being "slow".
 
2013-02-28 11:56:16 AM

tjsands1118: call me ignorant, but I didn't think one could have a sexual idenity


You're ignorant.  This has nothing to do with sexual identity.  Sex and gender are not the same thing.  Kids figure out gender at the ages of 3-4.
 
2013-02-28 11:58:15 AM

octopied: Remember when you were 5, 6?

Did you play "Show me yours, I'll show you mine"?


No, I was never molested as a child.
 
2013-02-28 12:00:16 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: thenumber5: I have no issue with transsexuals

but this really becoming a tyranny of the minority situation

Use the wrong pronoun and your nailed to the cross, try to draw lines based on simple biological systems, nailed to the cross

how about, can you pee standing up, go in this room. If not, you go to this room.....

You have no issues, you claim right before the rest of your post, which lists off the issues you claim you don't have with transgendered people.

How about attempting a shred of respect for the wishes of people around you?


no i have a Issue with a small minority of the community who cant handle people who dont even know them not showing them 100% suport of there life choices

I have transgender friend's, i grew up in a GLBT friendly household

I learned early in my life you cant expect every person in the world to respect or understand you, but only you can allow there views to hurt you
 
2013-02-28 12:00:16 PM

starsrift: Dafuq? Six, and transgendered - really?

Dunno about the rest of you farkers, but I sure as hell didn't have a gender identity at that point in my life, one way or the other.


Yes you did, you developed it around the ages of 3-4.  Don't you remember the types of toys you enjoyed playing with and the clothes you liked wearing?  All part of your gender identity, don't you know.
 
2013-02-28 12:01:19 PM
Put the kid in a dress...no problem.  Spank the kid for doing something bad...OMG - child abuse, time for the state to grab the kid and put them some where great.....like a place to be abused and used for state funds.
 
2013-02-28 12:01:58 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: orbister: Saying "if you feel like being a boy you can use the boys' toilets with all the other boys and if you feel like being a girl you can use the special gender neutral toilets along with the other sick freaks" is not keeping things neutral; it's heavily weighing the scales in one direction.

yeah... true.
I dunno, I guess I kinda feel like there should be a bit of an "activation barrier" so to speak. i.e. They should tell the kid that they love and accept them no matter what their gender, but in a way I kinda think that at that point they should be tipping the scales towards cisgender, and seeing if the child's certainty is strong and enduring.

Then again, who is it really harming if a 6 year old uses the girls bathroom -they've got private stalls and it's not like (s)he's a pedophile, so yeah, why not let them use the girls room.


Not a pedophile? I thought here in America if two six year olds played doctor we arrested them for mutual molestation and registered them as sex offenders/burned them at the stake. Or does that only kick in during high school with all the iPhone child pornographers and "rapists" I read about?

/talking about teenage statutory
//not rape rape
///rape
 
2013-02-28 12:02:59 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: octopied: Remember when you were 5, 6?

Did you play "Show me yours, I'll show you mine"?

No, I was never molested as a child.


pre-teen exploration/curiosity =/= Molestation
 
2013-02-28 12:03:21 PM

GanjSmokr: Screw it.  You've changed my mind.  I'm going to start using whatever restroom I feel like.  It really doesn't matter that I have a penis, right?  Apparently that's not how we tell male/female apart anymore.  If anyone feels I'm in the wrong restroom, I'll refer them to your post here and tell them they're just being "slow".


To me, it's fine to segregate a school bathroom by "potty parts" rather than by gender. Just let's not confuse the two.
 
2013-02-28 12:03:53 PM
Assuming that this little kid is naturally transgender (and not the result of some weird maternal indoctrination), then I at least understand why he might not be comfortable using the boy's room. However, I don't think the solution is to make ALL the girls uncomfortable by having a boy using their restroom. Because the kid is biologically a boy, whether he likes it or not. Therefore, he needs to deal with his situation rather than having everyone else suffer for it. Sucks for the boy, but life isn't always easy.
 
2013-02-28 12:04:34 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: Children learn all about gender and assign roles to one another (and themselves, and their toys) by the age of 3-4.  Stop acting as though a six-year-old wouldn't know jack shiat about the whole thing.


They learn that their peers (boys and girls) act and dress and generally behave in certain, different, ways. They don't even understand it, but they know it.
 
2013-02-28 12:05:15 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: starsrift: Dafuq? Six, and transgendered - really?

Dunno about the rest of you farkers, but I sure as hell didn't have a gender identity at that point in my life, one way or the other.

Yes you did, you developed it around the ages of 3-4.  Don't you remember the types of toys you enjoyed playing with and the clothes you liked wearing?  All part of your gender identity, don't you know.


Hmm, so playing with a doll, or wearing a dress makes you a chick?

That is a cultural thing you know. Other cultures dress different, doesn't make their dudes into pole goblins.

If a 16 year old young man can't make his own decisions about anything because he is a minor, allowing a 6 year old to magically turn in to a girl should be just as condemned. He is a boy.
 
2013-02-28 12:10:52 PM
Just because you think you didn't have a gender identity at a young age doesn't mean you didn't actually have one. Most people don't actually have to think about the gender they are, it matches their sex.

For those of us with mis-matched gender and sex, believe me, we know, from a very young age.

Personally, I learned how to be enough of a guy so that I stopped being picked on and beaten up. My father tried to "man me up" in many ways... now I am working on undoing that training, and it is not an easy task.
 
2013-02-28 12:11:21 PM
Mom, need to be put in a pit and stoned untin dead, dead, dead,,,thats farkin bullshyt, doin that to a kid. A child don't know what it wants until you give it to him/her
 
2013-02-28 12:11:35 PM

gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?


Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.
 
2013-02-28 12:12:15 PM

thenumber5: The My Little Pony Killer: thenumber5: I have no issue with transsexuals

but this really becoming a tyranny of the minority situation

Use the wrong pronoun and your nailed to the cross, try to draw lines based on simple biological systems, nailed to the cross

how about, can you pee standing up, go in this room. If not, you go to this room.....

You have no issues, you claim right before the rest of your post, which lists off the issues you claim you don't have with transgendered people.

How about attempting a shred of respect for the wishes of people around you?

no i have a Issue with a small minority of the community who cant handle people who dont even know them not showing them 100% suport of there life choices

I have transgender friend's, i grew up in a GLBT friendly household

I learned early in my life you cant expect every person in the world to respect or understand you, but only you can allow there views to hurt you


So you have black friends.  Good for you.

How hard is it for you to show them respect?  Seriously?

And why does it then become their problem that you refuse to be respectful of them?
 
2013-02-28 12:14:01 PM

loaba: The My Little Pony Killer: Children learn all about gender and assign roles to one another (and themselves, and their toys) by the age of 3-4.  Stop acting as though a six-year-old wouldn't know jack shiat about the whole thing.

They learn that their peers (boys and girls) act and dress and generally behave in certain, different, ways. They don't even understand it, but they know it.


They themselves also act and dress generally in those certain, different ways, and they recognize that.  They aren't merely observers until some magical arbitrary age.
 
2013-02-28 12:14:03 PM

CarloSkippy: cheyanne9:you are heading in the right direction, future rest rooms will be unisex and all individual rooms

Parents went to Europe in the late 1970s.  One place, they found a restroom labeled men and women.  It led to all individual stalls.  After doing their business, they found themselves in the same restroom washing hands next to each other.  It was one facility with two doors.


There was a bathroom like that in a nightclub in South Korea.  "Unisex" but with stalls designated for male and female.  Seemed kinda pointless to me.  Either go all the way unisex or have separate bathrooms, I would think.
 
2013-02-28 12:14:25 PM

ginandbacon: JohnnyC: the opposite of what it really is

This is a statement you need to rethink and rephrase. She experiences life as a girl. Her body doesn't reflect that. Which is reality? Her feelings or the fact that she has a penis? This is a very serious question. Do you honestly think that her genitalia are more important than her own identity?


The way I see it, right now the kid is pretending to be a girl. For me it is very simple, if your physical body is male then you're male, if your physical body is female, then it is female. Male = he, female = she. After this kid grows up, he has the option to undergo surgery to have his physical body modified to be female if he chooses. But as it stands, he is still a "he". He may choose to present himself as a female and may even think of himself as a female, but that doesn't make it reality. He is a male... His sexuality is something that he will determine later in life as well. But as long as he has male genitalia, he is male. Wishing or pretending does not make it otherwise.

Also, I don't think he experiences life as a female. I think he wants to experience life as a female. He is never going to fully experience life as a female even if he gets a surgical sex change. He can never give birth, his body will never produce the same hormones, he will never have a menstruation cycle, and will never go through menopause. He very well may go through life wanting to experience life as a female, but he never really will.

And don't get me wrong. If that is how he chooses to portray himself and how he chooses to be perceived, that is up to him. There isn't anything wrong with that choice... it is a hard road and one that most of society will likely not identify with (because most people identify as the gender they are), but it is his choice to make (even if I think he is too young to be making those kinds of choices). That does not mean, however, that I must refer to him as a female. He may pretend all he likes, but I am not required to pretend along with him.
 
2013-02-28 12:15:37 PM
It takes more effort to biatch about how put out you feel by being asked to use pronouns you might not be used to using for a person than it does to simply use the damn pronouns.

You look less ignorant in the end, as well.
 
2013-02-28 12:16:32 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?

Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.


Well what do ya know - we've been doing it wrong this whole time. Give the world over to the children as they obviously know what's best for themselves.
 
2013-02-28 12:21:04 PM
The My Little Pony Killer:They themselves also act and dress generally in those certain, different ways, and they recognize that.  They aren't merely observers until some magical arbitrary age.

Oh sure, they observe and even want to do some of the things they see. My 9-yr old absolutely loved to tuck his napkin in his short and hold out his knife and fork in both fists. His eyes bulged and everything, right out of a cartoon. Both my wife and I put an end to that shiate with a quickness.

Same thing would have happened when he was 3-4 and wanting to wear a dress. We'd say no, go find a clean pair of pants.
 
2013-02-28 12:21:08 PM

Lollipop165: I mean, why not just use the regular stalls? Is it a speed thing?


We throw cigarette buts in there and play sink the bismark
 
2013-02-28 12:22:09 PM

atomicmask: In my house we typically shut the door and lock it when its occupied.



WTH happens at your house that you need to LOCK the door?  Don't people there just respect a closed bathroom door?
 
2013-02-28 12:23:12 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: It takes more effort to biatch about how put out you feel by being asked to use pronouns you might not be used to using for a person than it does to simply use the damn pronouns.

You look less ignorant in the end, as well.


So we should quit using words as they are actually defined and instead use them as other people want them to be used (sometimes being the exact opposite of the correct definition)?

Let me try it.

You're "smart".
 
2013-02-28 12:23:40 PM

JohnnyC: if your physical body is male then you're male,


Wrong.

He can never give birth, his body will never produce the same hormones, he will never have a menstruation cycle, and will never go through menopause. He very well may go through life wanting to experience life as a female, but he never really will.

And wrong again. My uterus is not what makes me female. It make me menstruate. Don't equate the two things. There are plenty of women who have had hysterectomies and their ovaries removed who are still women.

You should do some research and put some thought into this before spouting off.
 
2013-02-28 12:25:21 PM

ginandbacon: JohnnyC: if your physical body is male then you're male,

Wrong.

He can never give birth, his body will never produce the same hormones, he will never have a menstruation cycle, and will never go through menopause. He very well may go through life wanting to experience life as a female, but he never really will.

And wrong again. My uterus is not what makes me female. It make me menstruate. Don't equate the two things. There are plenty of women who have had hysterectomies and their ovaries removed who are still women.

You should do some research and put some thought into this before spouting off.


Well, your uterus certainly rules out you being a man.
 
2013-02-28 12:26:24 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.


No. Surgery is required to be transsexual. Gender is a mental/social construct.
 
2013-02-28 12:28:10 PM

JohnnyC: The way I see it, right now the kid is pretending to be a girl. For me it is very simple, if your physical body is male then you're male, if your physical body is female, then it is female.


Often, "the way I see it" turns out to be wrong. In this case it is. Gender identity and sex are different. It's definitely easy to hang on to outdated concepts like boy = has penis, but beliefs must change as discoveries are made and research is done.

It was once easy to believe that 200,000km/sec + 200,000km/sec = 400,000km/sec, until Einstein came along and showed it not to be true.
 
2013-02-28 12:28:34 PM
Wow. Such mental gymnastics just so a small minority won't feel odd or different.
 
2013-02-28 12:29:14 PM
The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things - "J.T. LeRoy"

Extremely strange book. I have no idea why this article made me think of it immediately.
 
2013-02-28 12:29:32 PM

Thunderpipes: Hope the parents realize, he will get his ass kicked more by a bully, bullied more by a bully, teased more by a bully

 as a boy-chick than just a boy who is weird.

Then we should probably have a talk with that bully then, huh? It's not like this ass-kicking, bullying, teasing was done by a ghost.
 
2013-02-28 12:37:32 PM
this is what happens when you let the kids decide
HE is trying to fit in with HIS sisters
sure he can sit and pee but if you can write your name with it you are a guy
 
2013-02-28 12:37:45 PM

ginandbacon: JohnnyC: if your physical body is male then you're male,

Wrong.

He can never give birth, his body will never produce the same hormones, he will never have a menstruation cycle, and will never go through menopause. He very well may go through life wanting to experience life as a female, but he never really will.

And wrong again. My uterus is not what makes me female. It make me menstruate. Don't equate the two things. There are plenty of women who have had hysterectomies and their ovaries removed who are still women.

You should do some research and put some thought into this before spouting off.



Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.
 
2013-02-28 12:37:56 PM
In my meaningless opinion, a 6 yo is not capable of comprehending the choice to change gender. That kid is going to have a very confusing next few decades.
 
2013-02-28 12:38:16 PM
A child, at the age of 6, is whatever the hell mommy and daddy decide.
 
2013-02-28 12:40:40 PM

Jument: In my meaningless opinion, a 6 yo is not capable of comprehending the choice to change gender. That kid is going to have a very confusing next few decades.


Then if he commits suicide later, they will blame everyone but the real culprits.... the parents
 
2013-02-28 12:43:08 PM

Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.


You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 12:44:53 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?

Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.


That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

Also, stop using one sentence as a single-point of focus for your retorts, that is an attempt to take things out of context and everyone can see that upon reading my full post.
 
2013-02-28 12:46:21 PM
What is wrong with these farking parents?? The kid is six farking years old! Why haven't they gotten her an operation to fix her birth defect yet? They need to whack that thing off so that she can lead a normal life, as God intended. I'm sure ,later on in life, she'll thank them for fixing the problem before she had time to fully understand it.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 12:46:22 PM

gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?

Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.

That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you young for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

Also, stop using one sentence as a single-point of focus for your retorts, that is an attempt to take things out of context and everyone can see that upon reading my full post.

FTFM
 
2013-02-28 12:47:50 PM

gja: That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.


People "stand by" all sorts of rubbish. There are people who "stand by" the "fact" that the earth is 6000 years old, or that it sits atop a giant turtle. What does the research say?

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Issac Asimov
 
2013-02-28 12:48:09 PM

stiletto_the_wise: but beliefs must change as discoveries are made and research is done.


Wait... what discoveries? What research? Gender identity is a subjective personal choice on how one thinks of oneself. Not how society or others perceive them. And yes, sex is different. That kid is a male, therefor I refer to him as a male.

He and him refer to a male (sex). She and her refer to a female (sex). There is no reason to modify the english language to have he and him or she and her be attributed to gender identity as opposed to sex. They are pronouns which refer to the gender, not gender identity (a psychological phrase), of an animal (including humans).
 
2013-02-28 12:50:15 PM

ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.



You do realise the LITTLE BOY is 6 right? And you say i'm the ignorant one? Wow, please never have children.
You really need to get up to speed with reality.
 
2013-02-28 12:50:45 PM

ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


I love it. Someone, anyone disagrees with your premises and they get called stupid and bigoted. You're going to change a lot of minds with that particular methodology.
 
2013-02-28 12:51:00 PM
Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


Do some more research yourself and don't just  cherry-pick whatever new study fits your already pre-conceived notions.  The  research on this issue has always been very prone to political correctness and social agenda.  It's also been incredibly flawed going back to the seventies, when it first became fashionable to posit that gender was taught by society instead of biological.
 
2013-02-28 12:54:50 PM

JohnnyC: He and him refer to a male (sex). She and her refer to a female (sex). There is no reason to modify the english language to have he and him or she and her be attributed to gender identity as opposed to sex. They are pronouns which refer to the gender, not gender identity (a psychological phrase), of an animal (including humans).


What are you talking about? We even change the values of the universe's  physical constants as more precise measurements are taken. Surely it's not a stretch that we be might redefine abstract concepts like "boy" and "girl" as we zero in on what exactly it is to be masculine or feminine.
 
2013-02-28 12:55:08 PM
I'm trying to understand..."Gender" is not an obvious physical trait, but it IS genetic and you are born with it (otherwise, a 3-6 year old could not "know" it).  The external manifestations of gender are apparently your desires and associated behaviors (how you want to dress, what you want to play with, etc.).  Putting these two things together, then, I can only conclude that gender-appropriate dress, toys, actions, etc. are all genetically determined.

But I've been also told in no uncertain terms, by many of the same women telling me the facts about what constitutes a transgendered person, that the last statement above is sexist nonsense.

My brain hurts.
 
2013-02-28 12:55:53 PM

Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


You do realise the LITTLE BOY is 6 right? And you say i'm the ignorant one? Wow, please never have children.
You really need to get up to speed with reality.


That little girl is about  2-4 years past the age when children understand and can express gender. No one is talking about sexuality here. It's gender. She identifies as female. Her brain sends her signals that she is female. Her body doesn't match up to her identification. If you don't get this insanely simple concept, then yes. You are ignorant.
 
2013-02-28 12:56:08 PM

doubled99: Do some more research yourself and don't just  cherry-pick whatever new study fits your already pre-conceived notions.  The  research on this issue has always been very prone to political correctness and social agenda.  It's also been incredibly flawed going back to the seventies, when it first became fashionable to posit that gender was taught by society instead of biological.


And there it is: "The research is flawed because it was corrupted by the liberals!"
 
2013-02-28 12:57:13 PM
ts3.mm.bing.net
 
2013-02-28 12:59:43 PM

Theaetetus: The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.

[blogs.scientificamerican.com image 400x300]
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.


I'm in my late 40's so things may have changed but not one school I went to K-12 had doors on the stalls if they had stalls at all.

I think it's a bit early to treat this kid as a transgendered IMHO
 
2013-02-28 01:00:55 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: Joe Blowme: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.

Gingers get beat up in England all the time. So that means that a responsible parent would dye their kid's hair black, right?


If you have a kid who's getting beaten up because they're different, you may want to consider doing what's required to get your kid to conform, if your ONLY goal is to avoid confrontation.  I suspect that may have an impact on the child's self-worth, but since that's doesn't factor into your thought process above, you would disregard it, right, even though it makes you an awful person?

Does my straw man hold up as well as yours?
 
Kids will tend to pick on anyone who is obviously different.  The ones that don't may not have any logical reason why not - it could be something as irrelevant as liking the brand of shoes they wear.  They are not mature enough to make rational non-judgmental decisions (and indeed, neither are many adults), and so bullying in one form or another - even if it's just passive isolation - is going to happen.  This starts to change sometime around the age of 8-10, when the child gains the ability to role-take, when they can begin to consider what it's like to be another person.  This gives them a personal ethical/moral scale to judge against, but it's still affected by their past and current experiences and associations.

As far as bullying goes, you can prevent some level of physical violence, and even things like name calling or verbal threats, but you cannot outright remove it.  You certainly can't force bullies to ignore or befriend the victim either.  Kids are too immature to make rational decisions at this level, and some folks never grow to the point where they can.  Phrase it however you like, or correctly point at the instigators instead of the victims, or even point out the valid fact that it's unfair to make the victims change themselves to avoid abuse, but it'll happen anyway.  It sucks, but perhaps if you've read this, you've learned a little more about the practical impact of the term 'immature'.
 
2013-02-28 01:02:55 PM
Do some more research yourself and don't just  cherry-pick whatever new study fits your already pre-conceived notions.  The  research on this issue has always been very prone to political correctness and social agenda.  It's also been incredibly flawed going back to the seventies, when it first became fashionable to posit that gender was taught by society instead of biological.

And there it is: "The research is flawed because it was corrupted by the liberals!"


brilliant!
Anyway, for those not mentally challenged, the most landmark study of this kind involved a male raise as a female. It was called a success and hailed by many as "proof" that gender was a societal construct.
In fact, no actual "study" has refuted this.
It was refuted by the the actual subject, who, after years of confusion, anger and a suicide attempt, changed his identity back to male, married a woman, and continues to live this way.
 
2013-02-28 01:03:01 PM
This kid is going to end up making a women suit out of real women.
 
2013-02-28 01:04:40 PM

Lollipop165: Why DO men's bathrooms have urinals?

I mean, why not just use the regular stalls? Is it a speed thing?


Probably more of a sanitary/cleanliness thing--too many guys pee all over the toilet seats and stuff
 
2013-02-28 01:06:13 PM

ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


You do realise the LITTLE BOY is 6 right? And you say i'm the ignorant one? Wow, please never have children.
You really need to get up to speed with reality.

That little girl is about  2-4 years past the age when children understand and can express gender. No one is talking about sexuality here. It's gender. She identifies as female. Her brain sends her signals that she is female. Her body doesn't match up to her identification. If you don't get this insanely simple concept, then yes. You are ignorant.


So you can read his mind? No you are guessing he has complete understanding according to your THEORY. HE IS A 6 YEAR OLD! If you dont get this insanely simple concept of reality, then you are ignorant and should never be allowed to raise a child.
 
2013-02-28 01:08:01 PM

orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?


"HE" is f farking "BOY" with male genitals. You may can shiat in a taco shell and call it a cheese burrito, but it is still shiat in a taco shell to any SANE person and they aren't eating your shiat. Holy farking cow, how stupid have we become to even utter such nonsense?
 
2013-02-28 01:08:31 PM

Theaetetus: Thunderpipes: Hope the parents realize, he will get his ass kicked more by a bully, bullied more by a bully, teased more by a bully as a boy-chick than just a boy who is weird.

Then we should probably have a talk with that bully then, huh? It's not like this ass-kicking, bullying, teasing was done by a ghost.


Bullies exist to make kids stronger. All animals do it. There is a pecking order in life. You either man up, or you get my french fries. Animals don't like weirdness, and will kick weirdos out to protect their gene pool. Just because we can make iPhones doesn't mean we need to pretend being weird is cool. Let the kid deal with it and move on. When it is 18, it can decide if it wants its johnson removed.

At this rate, in 100 years, every single person on Earth will be retarded and transgendered.
 
2013-02-28 01:09:10 PM
I have no problem at all with a transgendered child, my main curiosity is with society's insistence on single gender bathrooms. It seems rather wasteful.
 
2013-02-28 01:09:43 PM

Thunderpipes: Theaetetus: Thunderpipes: Hope the parents realize, he will get his ass kicked more by a bully, bullied more by a bully, teased more by a bully as a boy-chick than just a boy who is weird.

Then we should probably have a talk with that bully then, huh? It's not like this ass-kicking, bullying, teasing was done by a ghost.

Bullies exist to make kids stronger. All animals do it. There is a pecking order in life. You either man up, or you get my french fries. Animals don't like weirdness, and will kick weirdos out to protect their gene pool. Just because we can make iPhones doesn't mean we need to pretend being weird is cool. Let the kid deal with it and move on. When it is 18, it can decide if it wants its johnson removed.

At this rate, in 100 years, every single person on Earth will be retarded and transgendered.


Oh, you I like.
 
2013-02-28 01:11:23 PM
The parents of that kid should have their parental rights stripped...
They are clearly warping that child's mind.
If my REAL daughter informed me some boy was using her restroom at school under the guise of being a girl, "deep-down inside"...
I'd scream at th school until they threw that thing out of her bathroom or I'd move her to a private school that didn't allow ridiculous shiat like this dumb ass farkin topic.
fark THIS shiat!
 
2013-02-28 01:13:32 PM

Slartibartfaster: I have no problem at all with a transgendered child, my main curiosity is with society's insistence on single gender bathrooms. It seems rather wasteful.


I do. In a correct society the parents would be tried for child abuse for encouraging the child. It is probably their perverse encouragement that brought the child to this condition.
 
2013-02-28 01:13:58 PM

stiletto_the_wise: JohnnyC: He and him refer to a male (sex). She and her refer to a female (sex). There is no reason to modify the english language to have he and him or she and her be attributed to gender identity as opposed to sex. They are pronouns which refer to the gender, not gender identity (a psychological phrase), of an animal (including humans).

What are you talking about? We even change the values of the universe's  physical constants as more precise measurements are taken. Surely it's not a stretch that we be might redefine abstract concepts like "boy" and "girl" as we zero in on what exactly it is to be masculine or feminine.


I'm talking about your attempt to redefine words to mean something other than what they mean. He and she are not abstract concepts, they are pronouns. They refer to the sex of an animal (including humans). He refers to a male. She refers to a female. This is not a slight to anyone. He is a male. That's all there is to it. He may like dressing in female clothes and likes to be treated like a female, but that does not make him female.

See... I'm talking about physical gender (biology), you're trying to convolute that into "gender identity" which is a psychological term to describe how someone "thinks". You're talking about a subjective thing and I'm talking about a physical thing. I realize that you think that gender = gender identity, but it does not.

Boy (noun): a male child or young man.
Girl (noun): A female child or young woman.
He (pronoun): Used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal
She (pronoun): Used to refer to a woman, girl, or female animal

Words... they mean things.
 
xcv
2013-02-28 01:15:03 PM

Eidola: Just because you think you didn't have a gender identity at a young age doesn't mean you didn't actually have one. Most people don't actually have to think about the gender they are, it matches their sex.

For those of us with mis-matched gender and sex, believe me, we know, from a very young age.

Personally, I learned how to be enough of a guy so that I stopped being picked on and beaten up. My father tried to "man me up" in many ways... now I am working on undoing that training, and it is not an easy task.


Sounds like your father sounds had a glimmer of the right idea but the wrong approach, I doubt he was professional about it. One of the world's leading experts on transgenderism has successfully treated hundreds of young boys that believe they are girls.

It's great that the parents are aware of their son's issues,  6 years old is an ideal age to address the matter, but a lot depends on the parents being positive influences, not fathers trying to get their sons to 'man up'  through bullying or attention seekers like the parents in the article.
 
2013-02-28 01:15:09 PM
Again, the story of Jazz.

Most transgender children still live in the shadows, hiding from a world that sees them as freaks of nature. Rejected by their families, many grow up hating their bodies, and fall victim to high rates of depression, drug abuse, violence and suicide....

... On the surface, the Jennings and their four children are a typical American family. But their youngest child, Jazz, is only in kindergarten, and already she is one of the youngest known cases of an early transition from male to female.

"We'll say things like, 'You're special. God made you special.' Because there aren't very many little girls out there that have a penis," said Renee.

"Renee and I are in 100 percent agreement as to how we should raise Jazz," said Scott. "We don't encourage, we support. And we just keep listening to what she tells us."

From the moment he could speak, Jazz made it clear he wanted to wear a dress. At only 15 months, he would unsnap his onesies to make it look like a dress. When his parents praised Jazz as a "good boy," he would correct them, saying he was a good girl.

The Jennings wanted to believe it would pass. Scott said he "was in a bit of denial" about what Jazz was trying to tell them. After all, even their rowdy twin boys, who are two years older than Jazz, had painted their nails growing up. But Jazz kept gravitating to girl things, insisting that his penis was a mistake.

When Jazz was two, he asked his mother a question that left her numb and frozen. "[He] said, 'Mommy, when's the good fairy going to come with her magic wand and change, you know, my genitalia?" according to Renee....

... "We check in with her all the time," Renee said. "I tell her, I say, 'Jazz, if you ever feel like you want to dress like a boy again, cut your hair, you just let me know.' And she goes, 'Mommy, why would I want to do that?'"

While Jazz's parents now fully accept their son as their daughter, the transition has not been without considerable doubt and stress. Many parents grieve for the child that never was. "I mourn the loss of the idea of my son," Renee said. "I see pictures and the video, and that child's gone. But there's a wonderful person now that's with us."


And a follow up.

This child's parents had to deal with the fact that their little boy kept telling them that he was actually a girl. They did nothing wrong, and would have been very happy if this had only been a phase. She is growing into a young woman now, and her conviction that she is female has only gotten stronger. I suppose if this child had been parented by some of the people in this thread, they would have beaten this nonsense right out of her. It's very sad to contemplate the fate of children like this who have parents incapable of understanding what their child is going through.
 
2013-02-28 01:18:47 PM

JohnnyC: I find this whole story to be strange. At what point did the little boy decide to dress and act like a little girl? Was this a choice the boy made or his parents made? Seems like something one would decide later in life after said person had finished developing (physically and mentally).


Here's a thought:  Rather than talking about how things SEEM to you, how about you spend five minutes before speaking to find out how they ACTUALLY ARE.  Then you'll sound smarter.
 
2013-02-28 01:20:52 PM
We are all different. I knew at an incredibly early age that I only wanted to eat ice cream.
Don't put your antiquated notions of "diet" on me. That's just ignorant
 
2013-02-28 01:21:44 PM

ciberido: JohnnyC: I find this whole story to be strange. At what point did the little boy decide to dress and act like a little girl? Was this a choice the boy made or his parents made? Seems like something one would decide later in life after said person had finished developing (physically and mentally).

Here's a thought:  Rather than talking about how things SEEM to you, how about you spend five minutes before speaking to find out how they ACTUALLY ARE.  Then you'll sound smarter.


Because it's easier to "believe your gut" than to read a book.
 
2013-02-28 01:26:01 PM

stiletto_the_wise: JohnnyC:
Boy (noun): a male child or young man.
Girl (noun): A female child or young woman.
He (pronoun): Used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal
She (pronoun): Used to refer to a woman, girl, or female animal

Words... they mean things.

They do not mean what you think they mean.


They mean exactly what JohnnyC thinks they mean no matter how much you want them to mean something completely different.
 
2013-02-28 01:26:44 PM
You know,

It's kind of sad to watch a huge group of people collectively arguing for some outdated belief, convinced that they're right, yet slowly...slowly...realizing that they aren't right... as they grow older and die off. My parents' generation watched it happen with my grandparents' (racism, fear of communists), My generation is watching it happen with my parents' generation (homophobia). I'm sure my kids' generation will watch my generation cling to some silly belief that we have even after it becomes outdated.
 
2013-02-28 01:27:51 PM

Terrydatroll: I do.


good for you Mr/Ms Troll
 
2013-02-28 01:28:05 PM

Repo Man: Again, the story of Jazz.


Okay, lemme get this straight... At the age of 2, the kid was using the word 'genitalia', in a sentence, properly no less? at just over 1 year of age, the child was correcting the parents, that he was a girl and not a boy?

Wow...
 
2013-02-28 01:28:12 PM

dready zim: You can now carry on with the mouth frothing.


That's some funny Freudian projection right there.

I can't help but wonder how many keyboards you've broken in this thread already from anger.
 
2013-02-28 01:31:14 PM
The kid is a sell-out to the societal concept of gender. Wearing a dress!
 
2013-02-28 01:34:37 PM

RedZoneTuba: I'm trying to understand..."Gender" is not an obvious physical trait, but it IS genetic and you are born with it (otherwise, a 3-6 year old could not "know" it).  The external manifestations of gender are apparently your desires and associated behaviors (how you want to dress, what you want to play with, etc.).  Putting these two things together, then, I can only conclude that gender-appropriate dress, toys, actions, etc. are all genetically determined.

But I've been also told in no uncertain terms, by many of the same women telling me the facts about what constitutes a transgendered person, that the last statement above is sexist nonsense.

My brain hurts.


This is a bit of a thorny issue for the strict social determinists. But they are a tiny minority now. Looking at cases like Jazz, and David Reimer, it isn't that being born a boy or a girl makes you want to dress a certain way or play with certain toys, but that you are aware of being male or female, and want to dress in a similar fashion to those you identify with, and engage in similar activities.
 
2013-02-28 01:34:50 PM

loaba: Repo Man: Again, the story of Jazz.

Okay, lemme get this straight... At the age of 2, the kid was using the word 'genitalia', in a sentence, properly no less? at just over 1 year of age, the child was correcting the parents, that he was a girl and not a boy?

Wow...


That and your post made me think of this -  http://www.hulu.com/watch/325378
 
2013-02-28 01:35:47 PM

gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?
Even with the realization that it can be a defining choice with ramifications that can alter that persons entire life?
I would posit that 6 is a bit immature for such an issue to be concretely and permanently settled, and that by rushing the choice shows the people sanctioning such an early life-stage choice with such massive possible repercussions shows a lack of wisdom, maturity and sensitivity to the issue at hand.


You agree, therefore, that this child should not be compelled, at six, to commit to being male for ever? Because it's funny how people here seem to think that there is only one choice here. Very reminiscent of those who claim that gay people choose their sexuality but never think of themselves as having chosen straightness.
 
2013-02-28 01:35:50 PM
Yeah, well, you really think a six year old can resist that?Especially if "she" is anatomically different? And really, six? Six year olds don;t understand a lot of complex things.....hell, I'm not sure that I understand this "I have the wrong genitals" thing. See, I'm a woman. To clarify, I was born with a vagina, but I never much cared for dolls and such, I more cared for doing things people would consider "boy stuff". Even now, I enjoy watching hockey, I don't like chick flicks, and I'm not into makeup, Although I can and do dress nicely and like a woman when the occasion calls.I just figure I'm a woman who doesn't much like sterotypical "female" things(Who was it that decided which genders could like what?)

I've noticed that transgender people care alot more about gender than many "normal" people. There are plenty of women out there who think high heels are ridiculous, hiking and beer is awesome. There are plenty of men who love cats and musicals. There are marine females and stay at home dads. I wonder why they care so much that they're willing to take potentially dangerous hormone replacement therapies and pay someone thousands of dollars to cut their bits, or why they're so invested in other's opinion of their appearance. I watched one documentary about a male to female transgender who transitioned after (s)he had married and had a kid. (S)he broke up is marriage, ended up in the ER with blood clots, quit his high powered stereotypically male job and took a job at some non-profit for a dramatic pay cut, and paid thousands of dollars in surgery, hair removal, hormones, voice classes, etc to be a 6'1'' strange looking intermediate gender creature. At what point does your obsession about your gender become pathological?
 
2013-02-28 01:37:04 PM
When I was 3 or 4, I told my parents I was a shark, and went around biting stuff. If only they had agreed and let me fully transform!!!

Instead they told me I was a boy. Those bastards!!

This is so stupid it is beyond belief. The fact this is even in debate at all is why we completely fail as a country, and younger generations suck. Bad, bad parents. Yes, they should drill it into the kid he is not a girl. When it is older, maybe then have a talk with it and lay out options. Tell it it can have the wang removed and be whatever it wants. I am sorry, but you can send kids to jail for picking on it all you want, but it will have a really hard time growing up and the damage will be permanent.
 
2013-02-28 01:37:35 PM

loaba: It's just that simple. By the age of 6, he'll sure think he's a girl boy who wears dresses..


Fixed that for you, unless you think every female toddler dressed in trousers gets to five thinking they're male.
 
2013-02-28 01:38:04 PM

Oerath: Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.

No. Surgery is required to be transsexual. Gender is a mental/social construct.


Surgery isn't required for anything.
 
2013-02-28 01:38:52 PM

Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.


This
 
2013-02-28 01:43:21 PM

mwfark: However, I don't think the solution is to make ALL the girls uncomfortable by having a boy using their restroom. Because the kid is biologically a boy, whether he likes it or not.


So you tell the kids "Coy's a girl, but her bottom looks like a boy's" and the kids, having not yet developed years' worth of fears and prejudices about such things, will think about this for a moment, shrug, and get on with things which interest them more.
 
2013-02-28 01:47:12 PM

JohnnyC: The way I see it, right now the kid is pretending to be a girl. For me it is very simple, if your physical body is male then you're male, if your physical body is female, then it is female.


All that says is that you have simplistic and uniformed views. See also: "For me it is very simple, the earth was created in 4004BC"
 
2013-02-28 01:47:27 PM

xcv: Sounds like your father sounds had a glimmer of the right idea but the wrong approach, I doubt he was professional about it. One of the world's leading experts on transgenderism has successfully treated hundreds of young boys that believe they are girls.

It's great that the parents are aware of their son's issues,  6 years old is an ideal age to address the matter, but a lot depends on the parents being positive influences, not fathers trying to get their sons to 'man up'  through bullying or attention seekers like the parents in the article.


I could write a book about my experiences with my father... I consider myself a survivor of his abuse. Physical, sexual and emotional. However, given that, I can assure you I would be in the 10% of children that Zucker's therapy would not work for. Also, I wonder if you went back and kept following the other 90% would they be happy with who they are, or would they have just learned to repress how they really feel about themselves?

It took me a long time, but eventually I realized the side of me I had repressed. Now I know who and what I am, the problem I am facing is giving up the safety of the persona I was forced to create for the uncertainty of transitioning. It seems society is becoming more accepting, however, reading stories of trans-people who are abused and even murdered really causes emotional conflict for me.

I guess I don't really see how reparative therapy would truly work for trans-people. At one point it was used to try to "cure" gay people, without success, why would it work for trans-people any better?
 
2013-02-28 01:49:28 PM

loaba: Give the world over to the children as they obviously know what's best for themselves.


Could those of you on the hating side please decide whether this is a case of a child deciding something for itself or wacky parents deciding something for it? You can't keep both arguments going at the same time, you know.
 
2013-02-28 01:52:01 PM

Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.


Biology is what determines how you FEEL about it. Thanks for playing. Give him a big hand, folks.
 
2013-02-28 01:53:29 PM

Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.


Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.
 
2013-02-28 01:53:42 PM

gja: That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.


So? Nobodies is going to do anything surgically irreversible for at least another ten years. If she decides in a couple of years that she's a boy after all, he can switch back. No harm done.
 
2013-02-28 01:56:15 PM

orbister: gja: That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

So? Nobodies is going to do anything surgically irreversible for at least another ten years. If she decides in a couple of years that she's a boy after all, he can switch back. No harm done.


Damn nobodies need to get off their collective asses stat.
 
2013-02-28 01:57:46 PM
The haters could watch this:I Am Jazz - A Family In Transition. But they might get a glimmer of understanding, and begin to feel sympathy rather than hate - and what fun would that be?
 
2013-02-28 01:58:04 PM

doubled99: It was refuted by the the actual subject, who, after years of confusion, anger and a suicide attempt, changed his identity back to male, married a woman, and continues to live this way killed himself.


That's some mighty fine background research, Lou.
 
2013-02-28 01:59:57 PM

Eidola: Now I know who and what I am, the problem I am facing is giving up the safety of the persona I was forced to create for the uncertainty of transitioning.


Please know that you are accepted and valued for who you are. Not how others view you, how you present yourself to us. How you define yourself. And you are helping young people with their own journeys.   It's huge for them to have models like you to follow.
 
2013-02-28 02:01:47 PM
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-02-28 02:03:43 PM
How would a 6 year old even know that they are "transgendered"?

The more likely explanation is that mommy and/or daddy wanted a daughter so they made their son into one. Little kids are incredibly impressionable...that I do know.
 
2013-02-28 02:07:04 PM

Repo Man: RedZoneTuba: I'm trying to understand..."Gender" is not an obvious physical trait, but it IS genetic and you are born with it (otherwise, a 3-6 year old could not "know" it).  The external manifestations of gender are apparently your desires and associated behaviors (how you want to dress, what you want to play with, etc.).  Putting these two things together, then, I can only conclude that gender-appropriate dress, toys, actions, etc. are all genetically determined.

But I've been also told in no uncertain terms, by many of the same women telling me the facts about what constitutes a transgendered person, that the last statement above is sexist nonsense.

My brain hurts.

This is a bit of a thorny issue for the strict social determinists. But they are a tiny minority now. Looking at cases like Jazz, and David Reimer, it isn't that being born a boy or a girl makes you want to dress a certain way or play with certain toys, but that you are aware of being male or female, and want to dress in a similar fashion to those you identify with, and engage in similar activities.


Can you expand further on "those you identify with"?  It can't be via looks because  they would look quite different from the transgendered individual.  It can't be from deep conversaions with other 3 year olds.  If it is from their dress, actions, etc. then we're back to my dilemma of saying gender-appropriate dress, actions, etc. are both genetically determined AND sexist nonsense at the same time.

You are not suggesting some extra-sensory "aura" of gender identification, are you?
 
2013-02-28 02:07:51 PM

NCg8r: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.


I am. I was bullied, I learned to attack them. It stopped. Learned valuable lessons. Kids today learn to cry, run, and seek help. Very bad lessons to teach. Yes, bullying is a good thing. It still happens even with your ignorant anti-bullying campaign, only difference is, the bullies never get their asses kicked and the kids bullied never learn to stick up for themselves.
 
2013-02-28 02:09:05 PM

Theaetetus: Thunderpipes: Hope the parents realize, he will get his ass kicked more by a bully, bullied more by a bully, teased more by a bully as a boy-chick than just a boy who is weird.

Then we should probably have a talk with that bully then, huh? It's not like this ass-kicking, bullying, teasing was done by a ghost.


Such wisdom! Why have we not realized sooner that bullying is wrong? Someone really should have said something sooner.

Meanwhile, I will be over there telling drug dealers that their product is illegal AND harmful to their customers.
 
2013-02-28 02:10:37 PM
Hey guys!  What's going on in this...

media.tumblr.com
 
2013-02-28 02:11:39 PM

ginandbacon: Eidola: Now I know who and what I am, the problem I am facing is giving up the safety of the persona I was forced to create for the uncertainty of transitioning.

Please know that you are accepted and valued for who you are. Not how others view you, how you present yourself to us. How you define yourself. And you are helping young people with their own journeys.   It's huge for them to have models like you to follow.


Thank you! :o)

The one thing I am very thankful for is my partner, she accepts me for who I am, and tends to get upset with people who do not... which is a huge support for me.
 
2013-02-28 02:11:50 PM

Thunderpipes: I am. I was bullied, I learned to attack them. It stopped. Learned valuable lessons. Kids today learn to cry, run, and seek help. Very bad lessons to teach. Yes, bullying is a good thing. It still happens even with your ignorant anti-bullying campaign, only difference is, the bullies never get their asses kicked and the kids bullied never learn to stick up for themselves.


Yep.  Well put.
 
2013-02-28 02:13:13 PM

NCg8r: Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.


Perhaps you should do more reading and less ranting.
 
PJ-
2013-02-28 02:13:30 PM

orbister: gja: That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

So? Nobodies is going to do anything surgically irreversible for at least another ten years. If she decides in a couple of years that she's a boy after all, he can switch back. No harm done.


Well, no harm except for all of the kids around this child who decide to pick on him for being a 'weirdo'.  Don't get me wrong, this kid shouldn't have to go through it, but fact of the matter, it WILL happen.  Kids don't have that buffer to stop them from saying something incredibly mean, so they will let this kid know how weird they think he is, and then exclude him from everything.

What happens if this kid, who still goes around pretending she is a girl, gets a boyfriend?  Hasn't had the operation yet, so how do you explain MR. KANNISH!?!?  Quicky made ex-boyfriend goes around school telling everybody.  Well, time to change schools, but at least there is no harm done right?

This whole pampering every kids dream is doing more harm than good.  Yes, they will be sad that all their hopes and dreams aren't everything they thought, but it's going to happen anyway.  Either it's early on, therefore having more time accepting it, or coming out of University only to find out that job they were going to get doesn't exist, and they are stuck under a pile of debt.  These kids who say 'well, i'm a girl now' doesn't seem like a bad idea to the kid, that's because mommy and daddy say it's ok, which makes sense, it should be ok for someone to make this decision.  Problem is, everybody else around them HAS to accept it, if they don't, they are the ones in the wrong.  So what you are telling these kids is that they have to accept everything, even if it means everybody else around you doesn't have to accept what they believe in.  So kid who doesn't accept that one of his classmates is a girl, but is actually a boy, but dresses like a girl, has to accept that this kid is going to act that way, but that kid who is acting 'strangely' doesn't have to accept the fact that he is uncomfortable around her.  So then that kid suddenly realizes that if you want people around you to accept your feelings and such, you have to do something out of this world, like say, bully the kid who is acting strangely.  Then the kid who wants to be a girl suddenly has to realize that people around her won't always be comfortable with her decision of being a girl, so there will be times that she has to conceal that fact.  Well, thats when special interest groups show up and start saying how unacceptable it is that someone is uncomfortable with such things, and said bully is suddenly ostracized, and turned into a little monster, all because he didn't fully understand what was going on.

You know what that leads to?  That's right, a psychopath who shoots up a school.

That's how it's done.
 
2013-02-28 02:14:50 PM

RedZoneTuba: Repo Man: RedZoneTuba: I'm trying to understand..."Gender" is not an obvious physical trait, but it IS genetic and you are born with it (otherwise, a 3-6 year old could not "know" it).  The external manifestations of gender are apparently your desires and associated behaviors (how you want to dress, what you want to play with, etc.).  Putting these two things together, then, I can only conclude that gender-appropriate dress, toys, actions, etc. are all genetically determined.

But I've been also told in no uncertain terms, by many of the same women telling me the facts about what constitutes a transgendered person, that the last statement above is sexist nonsense.

My brain hurts.

This is a bit of a thorny issue for the strict social determinists. But they are a tiny minority now. Looking at cases like Jazz, and David Reimer, it isn't that being born a boy or a girl makes you want to dress a certain way or play with certain toys, but that you are aware of being male or female, and want to dress in a similar fashion to those you identify with, and engage in similar activities.

Can you expand further on "those you identify with"?  It can't be via looks because  they would look quite different from the transgendered individual.  It can't be from deep conversaions with other 3 year olds.  If it is from their dress, actions, etc. then we're back to my dilemma of saying gender-appropriate dress, actions, etc. are both genetically determined AND sexist nonsense at the same time.

You are not suggesting some extra-sensory "aura" of gender identification, are you?




In the case of Jazz (watch the documentary), she had both older brothers and sisters. It was her sisters that she chose to emulate from a very young age. What constitutes gender appropriate behavior and dress varies in cultures around the world. Cases such as Reimer's and Jazz' suggest that children innately know what they are, and are very keen to emulate the dress and behavior of the gender they identify with.
 
2013-02-28 02:16:32 PM

orbister: loaba: Give the world over to the children as they obviously know what's best for themselves.

Could those of you on the hating side please decide whether this is a case of a child deciding something for itself or wacky parents deciding something for it? You can't keep both arguments going at the same time, you know.


That's what you're espousing, Orbister. This coy child has discovered for himself that he is a girl. His parents couldn't have fed that to him, he came upon the fact on his own. you've said time and again that by age 3-4, children determine their gender identity.

Well okay then, the children clearly don't need their parents.

In real life, kids do need their parents. When boys play with dolls and wear dresses, it up to their parents to let them explore and have fun with it. That doesn't mean that the parents need to push the child to declare themselves as something opposite of what they are.  If left to own devices, the child might very well grow out of this "girl" phase, or not. Regardless, no one needs to push their agenda on him.

He's a boy who dresses like a girl and calls himself "she". Fine, he still needs to empty his bladder, via his penis, in the boys restroom.
 
2013-02-28 02:18:33 PM

ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


You do realise the LITTLE BOY is 6 right? And you say i'm the ignorant one? Wow, please never have children.
You really need to get up to speed with reality.

That little girl is about  2-4 years past the age when children understand and can express gender. No one is talking about sexuality here. It's gender. She identifies as female. Her brain sends her signals that she is female. Her body doesn't match up to her identification. If you don't get this insanely simple concept, then yes. You are ignorant.

So you can read his mind? No you are guessing he has complete understanding according to your THEORY. HE IS A 6 YEAR OLD! If you dont get this insanely simple concept of reality, then you are ignorant and should never be allowed to raise a child.

I think it's very telling that you feel the need to comment on what kind of parent I would be. I am adding you to my ignore list as well. I have run out of patience for someone who is not my child.



Thank god, now i wont have to worry about you bullying me by calling me ignorant and hurting my feelings because you have no clue how children evolve and grow up in the real world. reading someones theories on how it works is not the same as living it but as i said before, i hope you never do it for realz. You must of had one farked up childhood to believe a 6 year old has the capacity to fully undrestand the ramifications of this descision and support the insanity of his parents for encouraging this. Maybe you are setting up 6 year olds be able to consent for your NAMBLA buddies, i dont know but what ever your reasons are they are misguided and insane. HE IS 6 YEARS OLD!!!!
 
2013-02-28 02:20:41 PM
There is so much self-righteous bullshiat in this thread that I could fertilize the south-40 until it turned Baptist and claimed to see Jesus.
 
2013-02-28 02:20:55 PM

Another interview:

What did you want to be when you grew up? How does your real life today compare?

Interestingly enough, I wanted to be a Neonatologist that specialized in special needs babies. While I'm not a Dr, I did end up in the health care field and work 24/7 with my special needs kiddos.


Yes. Just a coincidence I am sure.

Mom looks crazy and dad looks like "I HATE MY LIFE".
 
2013-02-28 02:22:58 PM

doubled99: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.

Do some more research yourself and don't just  cherry-pick whatever new study fits your already pre-conceived notions.  The  research on this issue has always been very prone to political correctness and social agenda.  It's also been incredibly flawed going back to the seventies, when it first became fashionable to posit that gender was taught by society instead of biological.


The DSM makes liberal use of cop outs as "cultural norms" and "clinically significant functional impairment". I don't know why people think there's a magical science book on social issues which settles every conceivable argument by citing numerous high powered studies. There is still debate on whether sodium causes high blood pressure.
 
2013-02-28 02:24:49 PM

Theaetetus: NCg8r: Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.

Perhaps you should do more reading and less ranting.


I wouldn't want to miss out on another of your sanctimonious and condescending opinions masquerading as uncontested facts.

/every stinking thread with this guy....
 
2013-02-28 02:25:54 PM
At the end of this thread there will be a cloud of particles, the sun will rise, and a rainbow will appear
 
2013-02-28 02:27:44 PM

Eidola: ginandbacon: Eidola: Now I know who and what I am, the problem I am facing is giving up the safety of the persona I was forced to create for the uncertainty of transitioning.

Please know that you are accepted and valued for who you are. Not how others view you, how you present yourself to us. How you define yourself. And you are helping young people with their own journeys.   It's huge for them to have models like you to follow.

Thank you! :o)

The one thing I am very thankful for is my partner, she accepts me for who I am, and tends to get upset with people who do not... which is a huge support for me.


She sounds awesome :)
 
2013-02-28 02:29:29 PM
It was refuted by the the actual subject, who, after years of confusion, anger and a suicide attempt, changed his identity back to male, married a woman, and continues to live this way killed himself.

That's some mighty fine background research, Lou.

Really? I'm sorry I did not continue to follow his life
Doesn't exactly help the original argument, does it?.
 
2013-02-28 02:29:41 PM

Rurouni: How would a 6 year old even know that they are "transgendered"?

The more likely explanation is that mommy and/or daddy wanted a daughter so they made their son into one. Little kids are incredibly impressionable...that I do know.


How would a six year old child know she was diabetic? Is China full of girls who became boys because their parents wanted a boy?
 
2013-02-28 02:31:36 PM
I like the penis I was born with. Had a lot of fun with it - still dust it off every now & then - but I can commiserate with someone born with one that doesn't like it.

Does it solely identify who I am? No. Has possessing one caused me grief? Oh Christ - YES! But I've never felt the urge to hack it off.

Now if I was born with an unwanted set of 38DD tits on my self-identified male person, I would hope society would understand my position to hack them off.
I would also understand some dudes reacting negatively to a large-breasted she-beast taking a piss beside them in the ol' can and I would sequester myself to a stall for my twinkling purposes. It might be a violation of my pissing rights - but it's an accommodation I could live with.

I believe "Coy" could use a single-seater sh*t-house as a fair compromise to all concerned without too much fuss & drama.
 
2013-02-28 02:32:52 PM

Theaetetus: NCg8r: Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.

Perhaps you should do more reading and less ranting.


So predicting rain when there are storm clouds gathering is the same thing as encouraging and celebrating the rain???
 
2013-02-28 02:34:41 PM

ciberido: gja: ciberido: Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.

*points and laughs at the stupid person*


Using 'stupid' does nothing to bolster your standing or opinion.

Not really trying to.  If you're incapable of seeing how stupid Mager is without my having to explain it to you, you're stupid enough I'd rather just laugh at you, too, frankly.


Ah, the openmindedness I was chastised for not having last night!

Tell me something: where's your empathy for stupid people? You're quick to lash out at perceived slights against women and transgendered but have no inclinations against denigrating the "stupid". I'll have you know that stupid people make up 50% of the planet. You should do some research before making yourself look like a vapid twunt.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 02:35:31 PM

orbister: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?
Even with the realization that it can be a defining choice with ramifications that can alter that persons entire life?
I would posit that 6 is a bit immature for such an issue to be concretely and permanently settled, and that by rushing the choice shows the people sanctioning such an early life-stage choice with such massive possible repercussions shows a lack of wisdom, maturity and sensitivity to the issue at hand.

You agree, therefore, that this child should not be compelled, at six, to commit to being male for ever? Because it's funny how people here seem to think that there is only one choice here. Very reminiscent of those who claim that gay people choose their sexuality but never think of themselves as having chosen straightness.


I agree that children should not be compelled to commit to much of anything at such an age. Let them have the room and time to sort these things out themselves. In time they will find out what THEIR lives need to be so that they are happy and well-adjusted. This mother is not doing that by publicizing this childs life in the manner she is. Now this kid will have less possibility of choice without pressure. The mother has not done her child any favors.
 
2013-02-28 02:35:46 PM

orbister: Rurouni: How would a 6 year old even know that they are "transgendered"?

The more likely explanation is that mommy and/or daddy wanted a daughter so they made their son into one. Little kids are incredibly impressionable...that I do know.

How would a six year old child know she was diabetic? Is China full of girls who became boys because their parents wanted a boy?


Well, I suppose a six year old self-aware enough to understand that the carpet doesn't match the drapes would be capable of self-diagnosing with a life threatening pancreatic disorder and expressing it. Cross-dressing Chinese boys sound like a fetish or a band.
 
2013-02-28 02:36:09 PM

quietwalker: Gingers get beat up in England all the time. So that means that a responsible parent would dye their kid's hair black, right?

If you have a kid who's getting beaten up because they're different, you may want to consider doing what's required to get your kid to conform, if your ONLY goal is to avoid confrontation. I suspect that may have an impact on the child's self-worth, but since that's doesn't factor into your thought process above, you would disregard it, right, even though it makes you an awful person?

Does my straw man hold up as well as yours?

Kids will tend to pick on anyone who is obviously different. The ones that don't may not have any logical reason why not - it could be something as irrelevant as liking the brand of shoes they wear. They are not mature enough to make rational non-judgmental decisions (and indeed, neither are many adults), and so bullying in one form or another - even if it's just passive isolation - is going to happen. This starts to change sometime around the age of 8-10, when the child gains the ability to role-take, when they can begin to consider what it's like to be another person. This gives them a personal ethical/moral scale to judge against, but it's still affected by their past and current experiences and associations.

As far as bullying goes, you can prevent some level of physical violence, and even things like name calling or verbal threats, but you cannot outright remove it. You certainly can't force bullies to ignore or befriend the victim either. Kids are too immature to make rational decisions at this level, and some folks never grow to the point where they can. Phrase it however you like, or correctly point at the instigators instead of the victims, or even point out the valid fact that it's unfair to make the victims change themselves to avoid abuse, but it'll happen anyway. It sucks, but perhaps if you've read this, you've learned a little more about the practical impact of the term 'immature'.


Sure, it'll happen, and it doesn't stop happening when you grow up. Fact is, you're going to encounter bullies at all ages in life, and you're going to need to learn to deal with them. I just happen to think that we shouldn't teach kids that the best way to go through life is to become a total doormat and water down every aspect of their individuality so as to avoid being targetted.
You gotta stand up for yourself, it's a fact of life. And it means you're gonna take shiat along the way. Yeah, it sucks, but I'd rather be true to myself and my principles and get my ass kicked every once in a while than cave in and mold my personality to cater to the petty prejudices of the people around me. Same goes for my kids.
 /And yes, you kinda are shifting responsibility for the ass-kicking to the one being bullied.
 
2013-02-28 02:36:57 PM

ginandbacon: Eidola: ginandbacon: Eidola: Now I know who and what I am, the problem I am facing is giving up the safety of the persona I was forced to create for the uncertainty of transitioning.

Please know that you are accepted and valued for who you are. Not how others view you, how you present yourself to us. How you define yourself. And you are helping young people with their own journeys.   It's huge for them to have models like you to follow.

Thank you! :o)

The one thing I am very thankful for is my partner, she accepts me for who I am, and tends to get upset with people who do not... which is a huge support for me.

She sounds awesome :)


She is, and she helps me keep perspective, which is very helpful from time to time! ;o)
 
2013-02-28 02:37:11 PM

oldfarthenry: I believe "Coy" could use a single-seater sh*t-house as a fair compromise to all concerned without too much fuss & drama.


His parents refused that option.
 
2013-02-28 02:40:40 PM

loaba: oldfarthenry: I believe "Coy" could use a single-seater sh*t-house as a fair compromise to all concerned without too much fuss & drama.

His parents refused that option.


Then his/her parents should pay for a "Coy"-only girls sh*tter for his/her use at the school.
 
2013-02-28 02:42:48 PM

Theaetetus: NCg8r: Theaetetus: NCg8r: Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.

Perhaps you should do more reading and less ranting.

I wouldn't want to miss out on another of your sanctimonious and condescending opinions masquerading as uncontested facts.

/every stinking thread with this guy....

You're still typing. You can tell because of the clicky-clicky noise. You should be reading instead. That way no one will think you're an idiot.


Its almost like you decided to prove my assertions with yet another condescending post (that neglected to address what I actually said).
 
2013-02-28 02:43:46 PM
I get really frustrated with the language used for stuff like this... it's too ambiguous.  When they say transgender, do they mean the kid is genetically and physically male, but self identifies as a girl, or do they mean a genetic female who developed into a male body.  I'm not necessarily suggesting a difference in how the different issues are treated on the human end, but its a pretty different thing.  If the kid is genetically, empirically a girl who developed a boy's body, then the washroom thing  is stigmatizing a disorder.  If the kid just calls themselves a girl, at that age it may be something to work more deeply with because they haven't reached sexual maturity and there is a lot of the nurture vs. nature that will affect the brain development.
 
2013-02-28 02:45:48 PM

oldfarthenry: loaba: oldfarthenry: I believe "Coy" could use a single-seater sh*t-house as a fair compromise to all concerned without too much fuss & drama.

His parents refused that option.

Then his/her parents should pay for a "Coy"-only girls sh*tter for his/her use at the school.


Yeah, I bet they're not up for that option either. They want their penis-waving little "girl" to use the Girl's bathroom like all the other little girls (who don't have a penis).

See that's the deal here, folks. He's 6 and he has a penis and that makes him a little boy and that's what his parents should be telling him. Little boys, irrespective of dress and play habits, use the same bathroom as other little boys.
 
2013-02-28 02:46:32 PM
For laughs, can you point out the idiocy I've displayed? Aside from typos, I think I've been succinct and quite clear. No need to be smug and superior in your reply. Unless, of course, you have nothing else to offer to the thread...
 
2013-02-28 02:46:55 PM
I stopped reading after "transgendered 6 year old boy"

/Good luck planet.
 
2013-02-28 02:48:29 PM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


Disown him.
 
2013-02-28 02:49:28 PM

NCg8r: Theaetetus: NCg8r: Theaetetus: NCg8r: Jesus Thumbfarking Christ, do you ever stop? Nobody in this thread advocated bullying or those who bully.

Perhaps you should do more reading and less ranting.

I wouldn't want to miss out on another of your sanctimonious and condescending opinions masquerading as uncontested facts.

/every stinking thread with this guy....

You're still typing. You can tell because of the clicky-clicky noise. You should be reading instead. That way no one will think you're an idiot.

Its almost like you decided to prove my assertions with yet another condescending post (that neglected to address what I actually said).


Oh, you want me to "address what you actually said"? Then, yes. Someone in this thread advocated bullying. He even replied to you saying "I am." Perhaps if you weren't so infatuated with me, you'd have read that.
 
2013-02-28 02:49:59 PM

sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.


Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.
 
2013-02-28 02:56:43 PM

 trustfundStoj: Another interview


I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children one planned kid and a victim of three others thanks to overzealous fertility treament (and one on the way!). Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autismand I cannot cope so I had him diagnosed. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child was pretty normal so I had to invent an issue for him. Max is also on the Autism spectrum another child I cannot cope with. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old was dropped on her head and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!)and my guilt raddles me to hysteria so I take it out on polite society by being a deranged LGBTQ advocate even though I'm the posterchild for white cisgender privilege. I work full time at home as make the nanny be Lily's nurse as well as being a professional LOLFacebook photographer outside the home. My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012bum of the highest order and is totally cashing in on my parent's trustfund. - See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.CnVi r 3cw.dpuf
 
2013-02-28 02:57:05 PM

ha-ha-guy: Transgendered at six?  What did the parents catch the kid playing dressup in his sister's clothes one day and just go full retard or something?  Seems way to early to make the call on the kid and more like creepy parents grooming the kid to be a transgender or something that ends up on an extra farked up episode of Law and Order.

/also considering the kid has access to gender neutral facilities, not seeing the problem
//seriously though, there is no way the kid has a full enough understanding of gender roles and all that at 6 to make a decision
/I think thought girls were gross and had cooties back then, yet I grew out of that


Gender identity happens at age three. It depends on the child, but some children identify  very strongly with one gender. For example, little girls often have a 'pink' phase. From what I know, transgender people usually know something's 'different' for as long as they can remember; this girl may well just be very obvious about it. It could be the parents, but it's entirely possible it's just his DNA--and depending on Mommy's miscarriage rate and if the local power plants are following proper waste disposal laws, it might be  more likely. Prenatal development's a biatch like that.

/And about the kid having access to gender neutral facilities, you pull a non-GID kid out of a classroom at random and tell them they have to use either opposite-gender or gender-neutral bathrooms now. Let me know how the kid feels about that.
 
2013-02-28 03:01:05 PM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


Probably be happy she want have to spend all the money on hormones and the $20k or so for surgery when the child turns 18?
 
2013-02-28 03:01:53 PM
At the end of the day it doesn't matter how this child perceives or will perceive itself. It's not about 'mental gender', not about a girl in a boys body, or any natural or social 'norms'. It's about the basic biological necessity of going pee and poo. That's it. No 'gender self identification' needed. It's as basic as 'how you are built determined what room you use'.

IF
CHROMOSOMES = XY AND PENIS = TRUE THEN
BATHROOM = MALE
ELSE IF
CHROMOSOMES = XX AND VAGINA = TRUE THEN
BATHROOM = FEMALE
ELSE
REM XXX, XXY, XYY, ETC
BATHROOM = OTHER
END IF

I'd say we'd all be better off if we just took all these maggots and made everything gender neutral. ONE bathroom, ONE locker room, ONE shower area, etc. Force them all to pee, shower, and change in front of each other to the point that they become sick of seeing each other, and to the point where seeing each other is no big deal. Wonder what the big brained sociologists have to say about that.
 
2013-02-28 03:04:40 PM

FatherChaos: Hey guys!  What's going on in this...

[media.tumblr.com image 326x244]


i1.kym-cdn.com
This story is so ridiculous, we practically need a new meme,
 
2013-02-28 03:11:43 PM
Sorry maybe its because I'm old but when I was 6 I wore what my parents damn well bought for me, Identified with what I was told I was. at 6 unless you have yer kid watching some really farked up TV they have no clue about gender roles other than mommies are girls and daddies are boys. that's seriously about it. If later on they identify as female and are aware of what that role entails then hooray let em be what they wanna be till then a lot of this seems like projection on the kid.
 
2013-02-28 03:17:03 PM

orbister: Stinkyy: Another poster: "Kid wants to wear a dress? Why should the school stand in her way?  It's because we have norms, you stupid G.D.'d retard.  You don't get to pick and choose what laws we have here, do you?

I don't get to choose the laws there, but I do get to choose the laws here. Democracy, don't you just love it?

Whether a child wants to wear a dress or trousers, or identify as a boy or a girl is of no interest to me, and should be of no interest to the school. Schools are there to educate, not to enforce neanderthal social norms.


It is frightening to me that Fark allows heretics to tunnel through from their fantasy worlds into reality.
 
2013-02-28 03:17:44 PM

Netrngr: Sorry maybe its because I'm old but when I was 6 I wore what my parents damn well bought for me, Identified with what I was told I was.


That would be because you are not transgender. Your statement is as stupid as saying "Kids can't be deaf, because when I was that age I could hear perfectly".
 
2013-02-28 03:20:53 PM

ciberido: It's funny how tenaciously, even desperately, people cling to old-fashioned notions of sex and gender no matter what the science actually says. It's like Young-Earth creationists building museums to show Jesus riding a dinosaur.


It's also "funny" how few people can read TFA and realize that this is in the news not because the mom's an AW but because this is going to court.

FTFA They also assert that the restroom restrictions, imposed by the Fountain-Fort Carson School District, violate Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act, which prohibits schools from denying people access to a public accommodation because of their sexual orientation or transgender status.
 
2013-02-28 03:22:41 PM
But maybe he's a transgendered lesbian.  That makes it ok again.  Right?
 
2013-02-28 03:23:52 PM

Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.


Not really, they both are living in bodies that don't represent who they are. That one was as a result of a clusterfark of bad ideas and surgery is actually irrelevant.  Mommy is an other issue all together.
 
2013-02-28 03:25:13 PM

Jument: In my meaningless opinion, a 6 yo is not capable of comprehending the choice to change gender. That kid is going to have a very confusing next few decades.


Did you know at six? Whether you remember or not you did, and if someone tried to force you too dress and act as the opposite gender you would have known it was wrong for you.
 
2013-02-28 03:27:03 PM
Thanks willfullyobscure for clearing that up for me - hilarious!
 
2013-02-28 03:27:53 PM

kumanoki: I saw that episode of Shameless.


Thank you for making my Shameless reference search so short. This thread smells funny.
 
2013-02-28 03:32:23 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Jument: In my meaningless opinion, a 6 yo is not capable of comprehending the choice to change gender. That kid is going to have a very confusing next few decades.

Did you know at six? Whether you remember or not you did, and if someone tried to force you too dress and act as the opposite gender you would have known it was wrong for you.


Six is quite old enough to have a sense of gender. To know who you are.
 
2013-02-28 03:34:47 PM
When I was six I was convinced I had dragon wings growing out of my sides (hey, I was a kindergartner, not an ornithologist).  I was convinced I could feel the nubs and that they would sometimes heat up.
 
2013-02-28 03:35:05 PM

DigitalCoffee: At the end of the day it doesn't matter how this child perceives or will perceive itself. It's not about 'mental gender', not about a girl in a boys body, or any natural or social 'norms'. It's about the basic biological necessity of going pee and poo. That's it. No 'gender self identification' needed. It's as basic as 'how you are built determined what room you use'.


Except that how you are built doesn't determine what room you use. Anyone, absent gross anatomical irregularity, can use the standard toilet stall, so the idea that boys howsoever defined should not is indeed simply a matter of societal norms and gender identity.
 
2013-02-28 03:36:50 PM

Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.


Why do you believe 1. there is a difference 2. the mom just needs to feel special?
 
2013-02-28 03:40:17 PM

Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles,


Snerk.  Did you grow up in a cave?  Gender roles were quite thoroughly entrenched when I was in kindergarten, though that would have been a very long time ago.
 
2013-02-28 03:40:29 PM

ginandbacon: tinfoil-hat maggie: Jument: In my meaningless opinion, a 6 yo is not capable of comprehending the choice to change gender. That kid is going to have a very confusing next few decades.

Did you know at six? Whether you remember or not you did, and if someone tried to force you too dress and act as the opposite gender you would have known it was wrong for you.

Six is quite old enough to have a sense of gender. To know who you are.


I believe so, and everything I've seen on the subject says that's the case.
 
2013-02-28 03:41:08 PM

Theaetetus: The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.

[blogs.scientificamerican.com image 400x300]
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.


Hey look a pic of tiny room.... with a farking urinal on the wall.
 
2013-02-28 03:50:02 PM

orbister: DigitalCoffee: At the end of the day it doesn't matter how this child perceives or will perceive itself. It's not about 'mental gender', not about a girl in a boys body, or any natural or social 'norms'. It's about the basic biological necessity of going pee and poo. That's it. No 'gender self identification' needed. It's as basic as 'how you are built determined what room you use'.

Except that how you are built doesn't determine what room you use. Anyone, absent gross anatomical irregularity, can use the standard toilet stall, so the idea that boys howsoever defined should not is indeed simply a matter of societal norms and gender identity.


Yes.  It does.  No matter how many times you say it doesn't, it does.  As society stands right now, how you are built determines what room you use.

You don't want it to be the determining factor - that's very clear - but as of right now, it IS the determining factor.

Again, no matter how much you want whoever to use whatever room they feel like they should, that's NOT how it works.
 
2013-02-28 03:50:43 PM

willfullyobscure: trustfundStoj: Another interview

I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children one planned kid and a victim of three others thanks to overzealous fertility treament (and one on the way!). Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autismand I cannot cope so I had him diagnosed. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child was pretty normal so I had to invent an issue for him. Max is also on the Autism spectrum another child I cannot cope with. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old was dropped on her head and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!)and my guilt raddles me to hysteria so I take it out on polite society by being a deranged LGBTQ advocate even though I'm the posterchild for white cisgender privilege. I work full time at home as make the nanny be Lily's nurse as well as being a professional LOLFacebook photographer outside the home. My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012bum of the highest order and is totally cashing in on my parent's trustfund. - See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.CnVi r 3cw.dpuf


And BINGO was his name O.
 
2013-02-28 04:08:58 PM
I believe it is absolutely possible that a child who is destined to grow up transgendered may begin to identify (consciously or subconsciously) this as early as 6.

I also believe it is incredibly odd that these parents have something unusual about each one of their children.  The statistical odds on this?  And the fact that she always wanted to be involved with "special needs" children?  Jimminey Christmas.
 
2013-02-28 04:12:12 PM

GanjSmokr: Again, no matter how much you want whoever to use whatever room they feel like they should, that's NOT how it works.


Except maybe in Colorado, a court will decide whether the school violated "Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act, which prohibits schools from denying people access to a public accommodation because of their sexual orientation or transgender status".
 
2013-02-28 04:13:02 PM

Smidge204: orbister: Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?

She'll leave the toilet seats up all the time. Just imagine the trauma...
=Smidge=


You win teh intarwebz today
 
2013-02-28 04:14:36 PM
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that mom and dad created this gender issue.  Coy is going to be totally screwed socially.
 
2013-02-28 04:22:04 PM

GanjSmokr: Yes.  It does.  No matter how many times you say it doesn't, it does.  As society stands right now, how you are built determines what room you use.


Only because society says so, though, and not because of any physical or anatomical imperative. So it's a bit daft to say that societal norms have nothing to do with it: societal norms have everything to do with it. There are, after all, plenty of places where everybody shares the same toilet.
 
2013-02-28 04:24:59 PM
DigitalCoffee:
I'd say we'd all be better off if we just took all these maggots and made everything gender neutral. ONE bathroom, ONE locker room, ONE shower area, etc. Force them all to pee, shower, and change in front of each other to the point that they become sick of seeing each other, and to the point where seeing each other is no big deal. Wonder what the big brained sociologists have to say about that.

My thought exactly. We are still 'separate but equal'.

Afraid that a boy will look at your daughter? what are the odd another girl in the class might be 'checking that out' anyway?

There was also some discussion about a college feminist group wanting to ban urinals, since allowing men to pee standing up oppresses women (glob, I hope that was just a joke...), my solution, install urinals in the 'ladies' room, so they can try to pee standing up if they want to as well.

Equal opportunity, not equal oppression.
 
2013-02-28 04:25:34 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: GanjSmokr: Again, no matter how much you want whoever to use whatever room they feel like they should, that's NOT how it works.

Except maybe in Colorado, a court will decide whether the school violated "Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act, which prohibits schools from denying people access to a public accommodation because of their sexual orientation or transgender status".


I must admit, I didn't realize my state was this stupid...

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ndlaws/ColoradoFAQ.pdf

Does the new law require public  accommodations to eliminate gender segregated bathrooms or other facilities?

No. Covered entities may still maintain gender-segregated public restrooms and similar facilities, such as locker rooms. No place of public accommodation is required to provide unisex restrooms. If covered entities provide public access to such facilities, they must allow individuals access appropriate to their gender identity, rather than their assigned gender at birth.

May transgender individuals be required to "prove" they are transgender to use gender-segregated facilities?

No. Just as non-transgender individuals should be able to use a restroom or locker room appropriate to their gender identity without having to provide documentation or respond to invasive requests, transgender individuals must also be allowed to use a gender-segregated facility appropriate to their transgender status without being harassed or questioned.


Well, by law I guess it can use whatever bathroom it wants to then.

Additionally... unless I'm reading this wrong (which is a possibility), I should be able to use any restroom or locker room (women's or men's) that I feel is "appropriate" to my gender identity at the time with no questions or harassment or need to provide any proof of said gender identity.

Things just got interesting.
 
2013-02-28 04:26:02 PM
A male is in a female bathroom, it's a ticking time bomb regardless of how you identify yourself.  Frankly, you will be identified as male by others. One touch. One look. One gesture.  Suddenly the school has a million dollar lawsuit on their hands.  You knew, and you let him in there! Especially... If he/she's still attracted to women.  Oh the fun times.   As a liability issue, I honestly can't blame the school for taking reasoned actions.  This is only an issue if the child/parents MAKE it one.  Having to go a little farther for the bathroom isn't going to hurt anyone oranyone's feelings.  Nobody would even know about it, except that oh that crazy girl/boy always HAS to use that other bathroom.  So weird.
 
2013-02-28 04:27:38 PM
What TFA doesn't tell you, but this FA does, is that the kid supposedly decided she was a girl at age 18 months, and Mommy and Daddy went along with it.

There's a big difference between 18 months and 6 years.
 
2013-02-28 04:28:53 PM

ginandbacon: JohnnyC: the opposite of what it really is

This is a statement you need to rethink and rephrase. She experiences life as a girl. Her body doesn't reflect that. Which is reality? Her feelings or the fact that she has a penis? This is a very serious question. Do you honestly think that her genitalia are more important than her own identity?


A penis is reality. it can be touched, its physical, feelings about gender are brain chemicals reacting causing an emotional response thus not reality. Alter 1 chemical in the kids brain and he will think hes a farking zebra.. doesn't make it so
 
2013-02-28 04:33:01 PM

seniorgato: A male is in a female bathroom, it's a ticking time bomb regardless of how you identify yourself.  Frankly, you will be identified as male by others.


From TFA:  other students and teachers do not notice that Coy has male genitals,
Apparently, they don't.

One touch. One look. One gesture.  Suddenly the school has a million dollar lawsuit on their hands.  You knew, and you let him in there! Especially... If he/she's still attracted to women.

... 6 year olds, dude. I don't think Coy's attracted to anyone at the moment.
 
2013-02-28 04:40:43 PM
Look, to all those calling this boy a girl because that is how he identifies: just because I think I'm awesome doesn't mean I am.

When I walk down the hallway with my great posture, athletic stride and brimming confidence, I feel like I'm a tall guy. I really feel tall walking around and climbing and all that. You know what, though? I'm short. I was born short and I'll always be short (outside of major surgery), because I'm short. I can identify as a tall person as much as I want, but I'm short.

What about adopted black children raised by white parents who have no idea they are black until someone tells them they are? They are still black. They can identify as white all they want, but they are still black. What about white kids growing up in a neighborhood that is predominantly black? They are going act just like the kids around them, whoever that happens to be, but they will always be white. And to orbister's point about the albino black kid: he is black, because he is genetically black. If he were adopted by white parents living in a white community and thought he was white, he would still be black.  BECAUSE HE IS BLACK. Your albino black kid argument is actually counter to the argument you want to make. His genetics say he is one thing, and he is. Just because externally he is wearing white skin (like wearing girl's clothes) doesn't make him white.

I'm not judging this kid at all. You can love dolls and pink clothes and dresses and make-up and kissing boys all you want, whether you are a boy or a girl. I'll celebrate that you are who you are. But if you have a penis then you are a boy. Period. There is a reason that we have words distinguishing between boys and girls, and it isn't because girls like dresses and cooking for their husbands while boys like football and wearing jeans. There are boys who wear dresses and cook for their husbands, but they are still boys because they have a penis. There are girls who like football and wearing jeans, but they are still girls because they have a vagina. When they have a surgery to change that fact, I'll respect their wishes to be called whatever they changed into and celebrate their brave act. Until then they are just a boy who feels like they are a girl or vice versa.
 
2013-02-28 04:41:51 PM

GanjSmokr: The My Little Pony Killer: It takes more effort to biatch about how put out you feel by being asked to use pronouns you might not be used to using for a person than it does to simply use the damn pronouns.

You look less ignorant in the end, as well.

So we should quit using words as they are actually defined and instead use them as other people want them to be used (sometimes being the exact opposite of the correct definition)?

Let me try it.

You're "smart".


Let's use the words as they apply socially.  Definitions of words DO change over time, you know.
 
2013-02-28 04:42:57 PM

gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?

Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.

That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

Also, stop using one sentence as a single-point of focus for your retorts, that is an attempt to take things out of context and everyone can see that upon reading my full post.


This is not an opinion.  Try reading a study or two before spouting off YOUR opinions.
 
2013-02-28 04:43:49 PM

Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


You do realise the LITTLE BOY is 6 right? And you say i'm the ignorant one? Wow, please never have children.
You really need to get up to speed with reality.


You do realize LITTLE KIDS understand and place gender by the time they're three and four years old?  Why yes Virginia, you ARE the ignorant one.
 
2013-02-28 04:44:31 PM

seniorgato: This is only an issue if the child/parents MAKE it one.  Having to go a little farther for the bathroom isn't going to hurt anyone oranyone's feelings.  Nobody would even know about it, except that oh that crazy girl/boy always HAS to use that other bathroom.


So you're saying that it will be less conspicuous if one kid who looks like a girl, acts like a girl, dresses like a girl and plays with the girls has to use the boy's toilet? Right.
 
2013-02-28 04:46:34 PM

Rawhead Rex: The parents of that kid should have their parental rights stripped...
They are clearly warping that child's mind.
If my REAL daughter informed me some boy was using her restroom at school under the guise of being a girl, "deep-down inside"...
I'd scream at th school until they threw that thing out of her bathroom or I'd move her to a private school that didn't allow ridiculous shiat like this dumb ass farkin topic.
fark THIS shiat!


Speaking of people who need to have their children removed before they warp their minds...
 
2013-02-28 04:48:14 PM

Balrog: What TFA doesn't tell you, but this FA does, is that the kid supposedly decided she was a girl at age 18 months, and Mommy and Daddy went along with it.

There's a big difference between 18 months and 6 years.


That article says "Coy Mathis, born a male triplet, has behaved like a girl since she was 18 months old. When her brother Max was consumed with dinosaurs, she was playing with Barbie dolls. By 4, she was telling her mother that something was wrong with her body. "

Playing with barbies doesn't make one a girl or mean that she vocalized or understood a difference in gender at two years of age. The continuation of identifying as girl so far does suggest that she is transgendered/transsexual.

/Hope I said that well enough.
 
2013-02-28 04:49:21 PM
easy to hang on to outdated concepts like boy = has penis,

Well it damn sure precludes girl.
 
2013-02-28 04:49:33 PM

horsepocket: When they have a surgery to change that fact, I'll respect their wishes to be called whatever they changed into and celebrate their brave act.


If a man loses his genitals in an accident, are you saying that you would then automatically recognize him as a woman, or would you only do so if he wanted to be recognized as a woman?
 
2013-02-28 04:51:22 PM
Homeschool him until he's normal.

Problem solved, I'll send you my bill.
 
2013-02-28 04:51:22 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: Let's use the words as they apply socially.


OK, let's.  "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

The My Little Pony Killer:Definitions of words DO change over time, you know.

Yep they do.  These words, however, have not had their meaning changed yet no matter how much you'd like to believe they have.
 
2013-02-28 04:52:22 PM

Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


You do realise the LITTLE BOY is 6 right? And you say i'm the ignorant one? Wow, please never have children.
You really need to get up to speed with reality.

That little girl is about  2-4 years past the age when children understand and can express gender. No one is talking about sexuality here. It's gender. She identifies as female. Her brain sends her signals that she is female. Her body doesn't match up to her identification. If you don't get this insanely simple concept, then yes. You are ignorant.

So you can read his mind? No you are guessing he has complete understanding according to your THEORY. HE IS A 6 YEAR OLD! If you dont get this insanely simple concept of reality, then you are ignorant and should never be allowed to raise a child.

I think it's very telling that you feel the need to comment on what kind of parent I would be. I am adding you to my ignore list as well. I have run out of patience for someone who is not my child.


Thank god, now i wont have to worry about you bullying me by calling me ignorant and hurting my feelings because you have no clue how children evolve and grow up in the real world. reading someones theories on how it works is not the same as living it but as i said before, i hope you never do it for realz. You must of had one farked up childhood to believe a 6 year old has the capacity to fully undrestand the ramifications of this descision and support the insanity of his parents for encouraging this. Maybe you are setting up 6 year olds be able to consent for your NAMBLA buddies, i dont know but what ever your reasons are they are misguided and insane. HE IS 6 YEARS OLD!!!!


Please, stay classy.
 
2013-02-28 04:52:31 PM

ginandbacon: Joe Blowme: Biology is what makes you female, no matter how you FEEL about it.

You should really get up to speed with current gender research. You look incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.


And you look incredibly crazy but lets not judge.
 
2013-02-28 04:53:23 PM

HaywoodJablonski: ciberido: gja: ciberido: Mager: Wow, since a six year old is fundamentally incapable of understanding gender roles, how farked up does Mom have to be in this situation. I guess she really wanted a daughter.

*points and laughs at the stupid person*


Using 'stupid' does nothing to bolster your standing or opinion.

Not really trying to.  If you're incapable of seeing how stupid Mager is without my having to explain it to you, you're stupid enough I'd rather just laugh at you, too, frankly.

Ah, the openmindedness I was chastised for not having last night!

Tell me something: where's your empathy for stupid people? You're quick to lash out at perceived slights against women and transgendered but have no inclinations against denigrating the "stupid". I'll have you know that stupid people make up 50% of the planet. You should do some research before making yourself look like a vapid twunt.


There's a difference between willful stupidity, such as is evidenced in this thread, and having a low I.Q.
 
2013-02-28 04:53:32 PM
Netrngr: ginandbacon: JohnnyC: the opposite of what it really is
 
This is a statement you need to rethink and rephrase. She experiences life as a girl. Her body doesn't reflect that. Which is reality? Her feelings or the fact that she has a penis? This is a very serious question. Do you honestly think that her genitalia are more important than her own identity?

A penis is reality. it can be touched, its physical, feelings about gender are brain chemicals reacting causing an emotional response thus not reality. Alter 1 chemical in the kids brain and he will think hes a farking zebra.. doesn't make it so


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_gender_differences#Male _v s._female_brain_anatomy


Educate yourself.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 04:55:47 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?

Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.

That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

Also, stop using one sentence as a single-point of focus for your retorts, that is an attempt to take things out of context and everyone can see that upon reading my full post.

This is not an opinion.  Try reading a study or two before spouting off YOUR opinions.


I have read many a study. Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS).
It is NOT a UNIVERSALLY accepted scientifically supported fact that all people form their final gender orientation at such an early age.
I got that very clearly from the many convo's we have had over more meals and holidays than I can remember.
Perhaps after you have met some folks who have lived this, and have listened to their accounts and feelings you will be a bit more sensitive to this issue and how it impacted their lives.

Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.
Hint: there is none. There are more studies than you can warehouse, but none to date have made an exhaustive enough sampling to be considered an unimpeachable and a single source of expert subject matter.

I have an open mind and will read any reasonable study you link in. When I have a moment I will link in some of the studies I have gone over, I am just a tad buried in some horrible 'systems hell' at the moment.
 
2013-02-28 05:00:32 PM

GanjSmokr: OK, let's. "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.


So any boy that has, for whatever reason, become penisless are automatically girls? Because there isn't a lot of room for them to be boys by that definition.
 
2013-02-28 05:00:35 PM
gja:
It is NOT a UNIVERSALLY accepted scientifically supported fact that all people form their final gender orientation at such an early age.

Most people do, though, wouldn't you agree?
 
2013-02-28 05:00:42 PM

horsepocket: Look, to all those calling this boy a girl because that is how he identifies: just because I think I'm awesome doesn't mean I am.


How do I know the rest of your post is going to be ignorant bigotry?
 
2013-02-28 05:02:18 PM
Let's review some more:

Penis/boy Vagina/girl=Willfully ignorant, uneducated, illiterate, bigoted

Penis/vagina/boy/girl/whatever you feel=Enlightened, tolerant, current, informed

Are we all clear? Still taking bets on baby number 5.
 
2013-02-28 05:02:28 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.

Why do you believe 1. there is a difference 2. the mom just needs to feel special?


1.) The difference is that Reimer wasn't female in the head. He was a cisexual male who lost his genitals and was raised as a female because of it. If anything, forcing a transgendered female (female-brain) to live as a male would yield similar results.
 
2013-02-28 05:02:29 PM

GanjSmokr: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's use the words as they apply socially.

OK, let's.  "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

The My Little Pony Killer:Definitions of words DO change over time, you know.

Yep they do.  These words, however, have not had their meaning changed yet no matter how much you'd like to believe they have.


Except that they HAVE changed, no matter how much you'd like to believe they haven't.

Just because the world doesn't conform to your bias on this subject doesn't mean the problem is with the rest of us.
 
2013-02-28 05:03:54 PM

TheDumbBlonde: Let's review some more:

Penis/boy Vagina/girl=Willfully ignorant, uneducated, illiterate, bigoted

Penis/vagina/boy/girl/whatever you feelhow your brain developed in the womb=Enlightened, tolerant, current, informed


Added some science for you.
 
2013-02-28 05:04:15 PM

gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.


Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.
 
2013-02-28 05:05:03 PM

gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: So, you think 6 year of age is adequate for a person to decide such matters as gender?

Six is well past adequate, seeing as how kids form ideas about gender (as well as assigning those ideas) by the ages of 3-4.

That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

Also, stop using one sentence as a single-point of focus for your retorts, that is an attempt to take things out of context and everyone can see that upon reading my full post.

This is not an opinion.  Try reading a study or two before spouting off YOUR opinions.

I have read many a study. Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS).
It is NOT a UNIVERSALLY accepted scientifically supported fact that all people form their final gender orientation at such an early age.
I got that very clearly from the many convo's we have had over more meals and holidays than I can remember.
Perhaps after you have met some folks who have lived this, and have listened to their accounts and feelings you will be a bit more sensitive to this issue and how it impacted their lives.

Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.
Hint: there is none. There are more studies than you can warehouse, but none to date have made an exhaustive enough sampling to be considered an unimpeachable and a single source of expert subject matter.

I have an open mind and will read any reasonable study you link in. When I have a moment I will link in some of the studies I have gone over, I am just a tad buried in some horrible 'systems hell' at the moment.


I'm sorry what's FINAL here? the kid is six, no one is having surgery...  The kid identifies as female. IF that changes it changes...
 
2013-02-28 05:05:33 PM
The people of Colorado decided that transgendered students should not be denied access to gender-segregated facilities (locker rooms, bathrooms) based on other people's perceptions of their genders.  The law is very clear on that. School district has to suck it up and deal with any objecting parents or students.

It's noteworthy that here haven't been any complaints in a year.  Anticipation of potential problems that may arise in the future is not going to fly in court.  Government regulations that infringe upon legal rights must be based on something more than mere fear of things that haven't happened.  This school's decision is the embodiment of "arbitrary and capricious."
 
2013-02-28 05:05:44 PM
The parent are no doubt insufferable

After this court case they will be suing the other parents if "Coy" is not invited to the American Girl party or to the sleep over at Susie's house
 
2013-02-28 05:06:18 PM

sno man: I'm sorry what's FINAL here? the kid is six, no one is having surgery...  The kid identifies as female. IF that changes it changes...


And the kid has identified for YEARS at this point.  There is still quite a lot of room to grow before it ever comes down to hormone replacement or surgery.
 
2013-02-28 05:06:44 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an <b>ignorant bigot.</b>


DING DING. Ladies and gentlemen (y'alls choice): We have a Double Bonus winner.
 
2013-02-28 05:08:09 PM

gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)


If you are, you're not a very good friend.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:08:14 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.


Cute, a link to a GIS. Nearly trolling there.
I will need to print out your retort so my friends can laugh at your nonsense about me being an 'ignorant bigot'.
 
2013-02-28 05:08:30 PM

LoneWolf343: tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.

Why do you believe 1. there is a difference 2. the mom just needs to feel special?

1.) The difference is that Reimer wasn't female in the head. He was a cisexual male who lost his genitals and was raised as a female because of it. If anything, forcing a transgendered female (female-brain) to live as a male would yield similar results.


I agree.
 
2013-02-28 05:09:14 PM

JohnCarter: The parent are no doubt insufferable

After this court case they will be suing the other parents if "Coy" is not invited to the American Girl party or to the sleep over at Susie's house


Because private citizens are required to follow the same laws as a public institution, amiright?
 
2013-02-28 05:10:00 PM

LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.


A good friend is one who listens well and then tells you the truth.
 
2013-02-28 05:10:12 PM

sno man: GanjSmokr: OK, let's. "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

So any boy that has, for whatever reason, become penisless are automatically girls? Because there isn't a lot of room for them to be boys by that definition.


Did they get a vagina when they lost their penis?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:10:23 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: sno man: I'm sorry what's FINAL here? the kid is six, no one is having surgery...  The kid identifies as female. IF that changes it changes...

And the kid has identified for YEARS at this point.  There is still quite a lot of room to grow before it ever comes down to hormone replacement or surgery.


But won't change is the crap this child will have been made to endure by virtue of the mother thrusting this child into the publics gaze.
It is and was ill-advised.
 
2013-02-28 05:11:30 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: LoneWolf343: tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.

Why do you believe 1. there is a difference 2. the mom just needs to feel special?

1.) The difference is that Reimer wasn't female in the head. He was a cisexual male who lost his genitals and was raised as a female because of it. If anything, forcing a transgendered female (female-brain) to live as a male would yield similar results.

I agree.


Ah, crap, I read that as a question.

Ah, well, it needed to be spelled out for the avalanche of stupid bigots this thread has produced, anyway.
 
2013-02-28 05:11:45 PM

gja: The My Little Pony Killer: sno man: I'm sorry what's FINAL here? the kid is six, no one is having surgery...  The kid identifies as female. IF that changes it changes...

And the kid has identified for YEARS at this point.  There is still quite a lot of room to grow before it ever comes down to hormone replacement or surgery.

But won't change is the crap this child will have been made to endure by virtue of the mother thrusting this child into the publics gaze.
It is and was ill-advised.


You're clearly an intolerant, ignorant, bigot. Read a book. ;)
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:14:10 PM

TheDumbBlonde: LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.

A good friend is one who listens well and then tells you the truth.


I do not tell them anything. I just listen and remind them I don't give a shiat what they do, short of being a criminal in life, and I accept them.
Most of them I grew up with from cradle age. How can you possibly turn your face from those people in your life?
If they ASK my opinion they know they will get it, unvarnished, blunt, truthful.
And in the end all that matters to me is that they are happy.
 
2013-02-28 05:14:36 PM

GanjSmokr: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's use the words as they apply socially.

OK, let's.  "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.


So then this is a chick?
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-28 05:15:12 PM

LoneWolf343: tinfoil-hat maggie: LoneWolf343: tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.

Why do you believe 1. there is a difference 2. the mom just needs to feel special?

1.) The difference is that Reimer wasn't female in the head. He was a cisexual male who lost his genitals and was raised as a female because of it. If anything, forcing a transgendered female (female-brain) to live as a male would yield similar results.

I agree.

Ah, crap, I read that as a question.

Ah, well, it needed to be spelled out for the avalanche of stupid bigots this thread has produced, anyway.


No worries, I completely understand.
 
2013-02-28 05:16:48 PM

LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.


A good friend is someone who ditches people when they start living in a way that makes them uncomfortable?

I wonder what kind of friends you have, and I feel sorry for you.
 
2013-02-28 05:16:52 PM

Joe Blowme: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.


Better to be beaten up by a bully occasionally than by yourself constantly.
 
2013-02-28 05:18:21 PM
Y'know, there's an awful lot of arguing going on here.  Has anyone thought of the fact that the mother is probably whacked out of her skull? Seriously. So what if she thinks her kid is a girl---fact is, he's not---and no amount of "thinking it is so" changes that. Give the kid another ten years and see what happens. Otherwise, he'll grow up looking/acting like a freak thanks to his parents "allowing" him to pretend. Heck, when I was a young kid I thought I was a winged dinosaur until, luckily, my folks talked some sense into me. It's not that hard a thing to do, really. Will be interesting to see how this pans out ten years from now. Maybe he'll be another Chastity Bono but I doubt it.
 
2013-02-28 05:21:36 PM

gja: TheDumbBlonde: LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.

A good friend is one who listens well and then tells you the truth.

I do not tell them anything. I just listen and remind them I don't give a shiat what they do, short of being a criminal in life, and I accept them.
Most of them I grew up with from cradle age. How can you possibly turn your face from those people in your life?
If they ASK my opinion they know they will get it, unvarnished, blunt, truthful.
And in the end all that matters to me is that they are happy.


I was addressing the previous comment. By definition, you sound like a very good friend.
 
2013-02-28 05:22:12 PM

stiletto_the_wise: gja: That is YOUR opinion and you are free and entitled to have, hold and espouse it. But that does not make it a universally accepted truth.
I stand by my statement that 6 is, generally, too you for a mature for that person to fully comprehend all the ramifications associated with life-choices of this magnitude and  scope.

People "stand by" all sorts of rubbish. There are people who "stand by" the "fact" that the earth is 6000 years old, or that it sits atop a giant turtle. What does the research say?

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Issac Asimov


"When confronted with the choice of changing their minds or proving that it is unnecessary to do so, most people immediately get busy on the proof."  John Kenneth Galbraith.
 
2013-02-28 05:25:22 PM

MelGoesOnTour: Welcome Kathryn!  First off, why don't you tell us a little about you and your family.I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!).  Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).  I work full time at home as Lily's nurse as well as being a professional photographer outside the home.  My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012.
- See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.bMgs X miw.dpuf Check out this interview with the mom (who's pretty hot). Looks like they're got a pretty farked up family all the way around:

http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/


FTA:
Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).

Explains a lot. Leave the kid and the family alone.
 
2013-02-28 05:26:12 PM

untaken_name: Wow, that kid's parents must be MESSED up.


They should be in prison for child abuse. Their son will probably kill them when he gets old enough.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:28:41 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.


http://www.gender.org.uk/about/05devel/52_imper.htm

Have a read. Compliments of the old, ignorant bigot.Deliberately stayed away from american sources of AMA leaning authors to fend off 'tilted view' griping.
Many, many citations in this study.
 
2013-02-28 05:30:56 PM

Slartibartfaster: I have no problem at all with a transgendered child, my main curiosity is with society's insistence on single gender bathrooms. It seems rather wasteful.


I suppose you think supermarket express lanes are wasteful, too.  They are not.
 
2013-02-28 05:33:24 PM

LoneWolf343: tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: sno man: Voiceofreason01:
David Reimer

yea, that's him... that story is sad.

Of course, there's a huge difference between raising an actual boy as a girl just because his pee-pee got cut off, and a person who is a genuine transgender. And a six-year old whose mommy needs to feel special.

Why do you believe 1. there is a difference 2. the mom just needs to feel special?

1.) The difference is that Reimer wasn't female in the head. He was a cisexual male who lost his genitals and was raised as a female because of it. If anything, forcing a transgendered female (female-brain) to live as a male would yield similar results.


Uh, Reimer's "therapist" probably did more damage than anyone involved in the entire scenario.  For example, making the boy and his brother simulate sex with one another may - just maybe - have screwed both kids up.
 
2013-02-28 05:34:27 PM

DeathBySmiley: Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.

That's transsexual. There is a difference.

Gender = Identity
Sex = body parts


Ummm... no.

From the dictionary:

gen·der [jen-der]
noun
1. Grammar
  a.(in many languages) a set of classes that together include all nouns, membership in a particular class being shown by the form of the noun itself or by the form or choice of words that modify, replace, or otherwise refer to the noun, as, in English, the choice of he  to replace the man,  of she  to replace the woman,  of it  to replace the table,  of it  or she  to replace the ship.  The number of genders in different languages varies from 2 to more than 20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness. The most familiar sets of genders are of three classes (as masculine, feminine, and neuter in Latin and German) or of two (as common and neuter in Dutch, or masculine and feminine in French and Spanish).
  b. one class of such a set.
  c. such classes or sets collectively or in general.
  d. membership of a word or grammatical form, or an inflectional form showing membership, in such a class.
2. sex: the feminine gender.
3. Archaic. kind, sort, or class.
 
2013-02-28 05:45:12 PM

wambu: MelGoesOnTour: Welcome Kathryn!  First off, why don't you tell us a little about you and your family.I am a mom of 4 amazing, wonderful, awesome children (and one on the way!).  Dakota is 5 1/2 years old and has Autism. Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).  I work full time at home as Lily's nurse as well as being a professional photographer outside the home.  My husband, Jeremy, is a full time student at two colleges and should be done with school in Spring 2012.
- See more at: http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/#sthash.bMgs X miw.dpuf Check out this interview with the mom (who's pretty hot). Looks like they're got a pretty farked up family all the way around:

http://visionarymom.com/an-interview-with-kathryn-mathis/

FTA:
Coy, Max, and Lily are 3 1/2 year old triplets. Coy is our special little neuro-typical child. Max is also on the Autism spectrum. Lily had a very bad brain injury as a 4 month old and is about like having a 1-2 month old baby, but is so much fun (and feisty!).

Explains a lot. Leave the kid and the family alone.


I agree, It DOES explain a lot. To me, it seems likely that Coy isn't afflicted with anything. It sounds more like the mother is trying "too hard" [I can't quite put a finger what she thinks she's trying to accomplish, so I'll leave that tidbit undefined] to push the kid in the wrong direction. I mean, really, he's only six years old. Potential TG issues or not aside, the child is not at a stage of true self-awareness yet; he's surrounded by sisters and might want, at this time, "to be like them". The parents seem to be in need of counseling (by whom? I don't know). To me it seems like they are know-it-all's, self-proclaimed psychologists. Bottom line, something just ain't right here.
 
2013-02-28 05:46:37 PM

gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/05devel/52_imper.htm

Have a read. Compliments of the old, ignorant bigot.Deliberately stayed away from american sources of AMA leaning authors to fend off 'tilted view' griping.
Many, many citations in this study.


Did you read you're link? Did you read it? Hint it's about 5-alpha-reductase deficiency not really what is being discussed here.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:51:01 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Joe Blowme: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.

Better to be beaten up by a bully occasionally than by yourself constantly.


To a point I agree, but please let's remember to frame this in the point of reference of the real world we live in.
People get killed sometimes, for less than the shoes they wear. Caution is needed where lives are concerned.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:53:58 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/05devel/52_imper.htm

Have a read. Compliments of the old, ignorant bigot.Deliberately stayed away from american sources of AMA leaning authors to fend off 'tilted view' griping.
Many, many citations in this study.

Did you read you're link? Did you read it? Hint it's about 5-alpha-reductase deficiency not really what is being discussed here.


It is an example of how there is no universal answer for age as it pertains to gender development. Did YOU not read? There are more pages than just the one linked to, please at least try to not be obtuse.
 
2013-02-28 05:54:39 PM
Sorry transbrigade.  A child at six, let alone 18 months is not making this call, garbage parents are.  This woman has multiple other kids with either made up diseases or self causes(traumatic head injury) all collecting social security checks with no job and a husband with 4 kids and no job.  Sorry, this situation is on the parents.
 
2013-02-28 05:55:41 PM
To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?
 
2013-02-28 05:55:47 PM

MelGoesOnTour: I agree, It DOES explain a lot. To me, it seems likely that Coy isn't afflicted with anything. It sounds more like the mother is trying "too hard" [I can't quite put a finger what she thinks she's trying to accomplish, so I'll leave that tidbit undefined] to push the kid in the wrong direction. I mean, really, he's only six years old. Potential TG issues or not aside, the child is not at a stage of true self-awareness yet; he's surrounded by sisters and might want, at this time, "to be like them". The parents seem to be in need of counseling (by whom? I don't know). To me it seems like they are know-it-all's, self-proclaimed psychologists. Bottom line, something just ain't right here.


I would expect that the child is getting counseling from a psychologist and would definitely have to before receiving hormone therapy. Also if you're wrong and it's not the parents or mothers doing what then? Would you still demand that the child grow up a boy?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:56:48 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/05devel/52_imper.htm

Have a read. Compliments of the old, ignorant bigot.Deliberately stayed away from american sources of AMA leaning authors to fend off 'tilted view' griping.
Many, many citations in this study.

Did you read you're link? Did you read it? Hint it's about 5-alpha-reductase deficiency not really what is being discussed here.


Here is the entire, exhaustive study. You will need to read a bit. I am not going to spoon-feed it to you.
 
2013-02-28 05:58:11 PM

orbister: Biology is what determines how you FEEL about it.



Still trolling, eh?
 
2013-02-28 05:58:44 PM

HAMMERTOE: orbister: First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals.

And I'm a bird without wings.


I'm a hornless Unicorn!
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 06:00:48 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: I would expect that the child is getting counseling from a psychologist and would definitely have to before receiving hormone therapy. Also if you're wrong and it's not the parents or mothers doing what then? Would you still demand that the child grow up a boy?


One would hope so. That is absent from the article. What isn't clear is who, if anyone, is the source of influence in all of this.
The mother is 'on-the-hook' regardless for not being a shelter to her child. She should have fought to keep this from the press with every ounce of life in her.
 
2013-02-28 06:01:03 PM

ha-ha-guy: Kann: tfa says the kid prefers pink... cool nothing wrong with that, he likes girl toys fine... but in no way does he need to be using the girls restroom at age 6 in an elementary school...

Exactly buy the kid the toys he wants, but hold off on making the final call until he makes it through puberty.  Let the kid explore and once the body chemistry has settled down figure it all out.   in the men time just tell him he uses the room based on physical equipment.  For the kid to be so settled down instead of in a more exploratory stage, there has to be massive parental pressure here.


"In the men time"?????

Check your privilege, you hetero-normative, masculinist, neurotypical Cis-man!!!!!
 
2013-02-28 06:02:03 PM
horsepocket

You are confusing sex and gender.  Sex is whether you are genetically male or female, gender is a social construct about being a man or woman.  That's why the terminology is frustrating.  People use transgender to mean everything, when transsexual (chromosomes are one thing, body is another, or conflicting chromosomes like xxy) is very different than transgender.  Transgender is a much more murky discussion as its not empirical.
 
2013-02-28 06:03:26 PM
Came here for the amateur psychologists who still confuse sexual behavior and fetishes with psychological gender identification, and can't get over the fact that gender self-identification on a biological basis happens as early as intrauterine development and neural tube growth, and on a psychological basis as early as two years old.

Nice to see that many of you worked hard to earn that clinical degree from DeVry online. Carry on with the hatred and stupidity, people.
 
2013-02-28 06:06:38 PM

TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?


Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.
 
2013-02-28 06:10:32 PM

gja: BarkingUnicorn: Joe Blowme: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.

Better to be beaten up by a bully occasionally than by yourself constantly.

To a point I agree, but please let's remember to frame this in the point of reference of the real world we live in.
People get killed sometimes, for less than the shoes they wear. Caution is needed where lives are concerned.


Among those persecuted for being different, which is more common:  killings or suicides?  IDK, but the question seems relevant when discussing trade-offs.
 
2013-02-28 06:12:57 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: MelGoesOnTour: I agree, It DOES explain a lot. To me, it seems likely that Coy isn't afflicted with anything. It sounds more like the mother is trying "too hard" [I can't quite put a finger what she thinks she's trying to accomplish, so I'll leave that tidbit undefined] to push the kid in the wrong direction. I mean, really, he's only six years old. Potential TG issues or not aside, the child is not at a stage of true self-awareness yet; he's surrounded by sisters and might want, at this time, "to be like them". The parents seem to be in need of counseling (by whom? I don't know). To me it seems like they are know-it-all's, self-proclaimed psychologists. Bottom line, something just ain't right here.

I would expect that the child is getting counseling from a psychologist and would definitely have to before receiving hormone therapy. Also if you're wrong and it's not the parents or mothers doing what then? Would you still demand that the child grow up a boy?


If I'm wrong, which I very well may well turn out to be, then I'll adjust my thinking on this particular situation. Of course, unless this family will be tracked over time as a true case study [which, of course, does NOT mean "reality TV"], we'll likely never know how things turn out. But (to finally answer your question), no, I would not demand that the child grow up in any particular way that might make the child unhappy/uncomfortable.
 
2013-02-28 06:15:26 PM

BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.


Hard proof that a 18 month old is capable of this?  Oh yeah, there is none.  Read the words of the mother, 4 "special needs kids" all with questionable diagnosis and a dream of working with special needs kids.Come on man.  Cut the Social Security checks and this fixes itself.
 
2013-02-28 06:16:47 PM

BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.


This link talks about chromosomal disorders. I was asking about brain development OUTSIDE of that realm, and when that occurs in utereo.
 
2013-02-28 06:24:42 PM

shkkmo: Wow, this thread is full of assholes.


It sure is.  Asshole lunatics who've taken a single pseudo-scientific college gender studies course and decided they know best about everything, and want to force all of society to function just the way a tiny minority want it to, no matter how the majority feels.  And who have nothing but love for a woman who is willing to prostitute her own child to push her idiot causes.

Real serious assholes.
 
2013-02-28 06:26:17 PM

TheDumbBlonde: BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.

This link talks about chromosomal disorders. I was asking about brain development OUTSIDE of that realm, and when that occurs in utereo.



It's my understanding that researchers recognize that brain development probably plays a role in gender identity but what extent that role is, is still very much debated.   It appears that some scientists (based on my random GIS) still refer to GID as a mental disorder.


Nothing's been proven as of yet.  Though, some theories are more popular than others.


I'm finding this discussion very interesting along with random shots of prejudiced!  and bigotry!, which always helps people want to learn more about a subject they may not have had reason to research previously.

I found your question interesting and wish I had an answer (or more time to look it up) for you.
 
2013-02-28 06:26:43 PM
Well, with what I've seen in many boys/mens restrooms, I would be tempted to plead female just to use one that didn't have anti-gravity shiat on the ceiling or other inexplicable horrors.
 
2013-02-28 06:29:09 PM

Theaetetus: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.

Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?


In my house, I pee between my mom's legs while she takes a shiat, and then my sister pees in the sink while dad masturbates on the commode.  Saves a lot of time in the morning.

The Aristocrats!    Equality!
 
2013-02-28 06:35:42 PM

Brostorm: BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.

Hard proof that a 18 month old is capable of this?  Oh yeah, there is none.  Read the words of the mother, 4 "special needs kids" all with questionable diagnosis and a dream of working with special needs kids.Come on man.  Cut the Social Security checks and this fixes itself.


You have hard proof that they don't?
 
2013-02-28 06:37:24 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.

A good friend is someone who ditches people when they start living in a way that makes them uncomfortable?

I wonder what kind of friends you have, and I feel sorry for you.


I assume that you didn't go back and read what he said, so I'll tell you what a good friend doesn't do, and that is make ignorant bigoted statements about his so-called friends.
 
2013-02-28 06:44:50 PM

Gwendolyn: Most people who are transgendered state that they knew very early on that they didn't feel right within their body or socially constructed gender. Six is just unusual because the parents aren't forcing their idea of what she should be of her.


THIS
 
2013-02-28 06:47:17 PM
i704.photobucket.com


this strikes me as a perfect opportunity to teach that kid a life lesson, how you *feel* and what you *want* means jack shiat.
 
2013-02-28 06:51:23 PM

Brostorm: Hard proof that a 18 month old is capable of this?


I don't think I ever mentioned an 18 month old, did I? FTFA, the child in question is 6 years of age, not 18 months.

At any rate, there are plenty of cases of people who were born with ambiguous genitalia, who had the wrong ones lopped off - even with chromosomal studies, and later ended up developing mentally as the opposite gender they were raised as.

TheDumbBlonde: This link talks about chromosomal disorders. I was asking about brain development OUTSIDE of that realm, and when that occurs in utereo.


 Probably should have linked the next page, then

As research in this field broadens and deepens, gender dysphoria is increasingly recognized as just one of the several atypical patterns of gender development.The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition - Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) andInternational Classification of Diseases 10 (ICD-10)categorization of gender dysphoria as a purely psychiatric disorder is a difficult one because recent evidence has pointed to brain bias as a major determinant of gender identity. If, indeed, patients with gender identity disorders often have a brain bias consistent with their personal gender identity, then a reclassification is necessary. Ever-greater evidence seems to be mounting for this view, particularly in light of the extremely early age at which most cases of gender incongruence present.

IIRC, the DSM-V reclassifies it as a mental disorder in the same light of paraphilias - namely it's a "normal" variation on sexual identity, and it's only a mental disorder if it causes harm to the patient, or causes them to harm others. .
 
2013-02-28 06:58:25 PM

GanjSmokr: sno man: GanjSmokr: OK, let's. "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

So any boy that has, for whatever reason, become penisless are automatically girls? Because there isn't a lot of room for them to be boys by that definition.

Did they get a vagina when they lost their penis?


By your definition merely the lack of one negates boy so what would you call them?
 
2013-02-28 07:14:47 PM

LoneWolf343: I assume that you didn't go back and read what he said, so I'll tell you what a good friend doesn't do, and that is make ignorant bigoted statements about his so-called friends.


k, you got me. I didn't.
So now I just went back and read some of your previous posts, and it seems that you are mostly on the right side of this debate...  But still, I really don't understand the post of yours which I originally replied to (though this time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just misinterpreted you.)

LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.


Why exactly is somebody not a good friend if they continue hanging out with somebody after they've had SRS? I'm not necessarily accusing you of anything, I just really don't get what you said here.
 
2013-02-28 07:15:38 PM
BronyMedic:

IIRC, the DSM-V reclassifies it as a mental disorder in the same light of paraphilias - namely it's a "normal" variation on sexual identity, and it's only a mental disorder if it causes harm to the patient, or causes them to harm others. .

Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.
 
2013-02-28 07:15:48 PM

sno man: GanjSmokr: sno man: GanjSmokr: OK, let's. "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

So any boy that has, for whatever reason, become penisless are automatically girls? Because there isn't a lot of room for them to be boys by that definition.

Did they get a vagina when they lost their penis?

By your definition merely the lack of one negates boy so what would you call them?


Unlucky.

What would you call that boy who lost his penis?  A girl?

This whole thing has got to be about the silliest "argument" I've seen around here.  It's really not worth anymore of my time arguing that a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl.

I'm done and out of here.  Call them whatever the hell you want.  You win.
 
2013-02-28 07:21:58 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: LoneWolf343: I assume that you didn't go back and read what he said, so I'll tell you what a good friend doesn't do, and that is make ignorant bigoted statements about his so-called friends.

k, you got me. I didn't.
So now I just went back and read some of your previous posts, and it seems that you are mostly on the right side of this debate...  But still, I really don't understand the post of yours which I originally replied to (though this time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just misinterpreted you.)

Why exactly is somebody not a good friend if they continue hanging out with somebody after they've had SRS? I'm not necessarily accusing you of anything, I just really don't get what you said here.


sigh... god that was a lot of reply-to-reply-to-reply checking, but ok, I finally got to the crux of it.

 

gja: It is NOT a UNIVERSALLY accepted scientifically supported fact that all people form their final gender orientation at such an early age.


, Gia was basically just saying that it's not necessarily the case that Gender is so well formed by the age of 6. That's not enough to accuse her of being a bad friend. Yes, I misunderstood your original comment, but I still think your claim was an overstep.
 
2013-02-28 07:31:07 PM

ciberido: Marine1: Dude... it's a six-year-old. That could change again after puberty; who knows.

Who knows?  Gosh, that's a puzzler.  Maybe you should search Google or something on the off chance somebody's studied that question already.


So... basically... whether the Patriarchy shoved gender roles on the kids or not, they still recognized them?

/the penis is a weapon
//the penis is a weapon
 
2013-02-28 07:52:43 PM

TheDumbBlonde: BronyMedic:

IIRC, the DSM-V reclassifies it as a mental disorder in the same light of paraphilias - namely it's a "normal" variation on sexual identity, and it's only a mental disorder if it causes harm to the patient, or causes them to harm others. .

Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.


I think this may be what you're looking for. Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity
 
2013-02-28 07:53:50 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: So then this is a chick?


And this?

farm2.static.flickr.com

(If you're going to do a GIS on "Buck Angel" at work, make sure that safe search is on. You have been warned.)
 
2013-02-28 07:55:31 PM
First paragraph from that link.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) is programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexualism. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.
 
2013-02-28 07:59:42 PM

TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?


What sort of a damn-fool question is that? It's like asking "at what point in fetal development has science determined that perfect pitch develops." It's a completely meaningless question; the best we can do is say "Dunno. That's how they pop out."
 
2013-02-28 08:02:54 PM

The_Sponge: orbister: Biology is what determines how you FEEL about it.


Still trolling, eh?


You've red the stuff about the anatomical difference between male and female brains, have you, and how the brains don;t always match the genitals? Or are you just hoping that real life will go away and leave your preconceptions (ha-ha) alone?
 
2013-02-28 08:06:45 PM

Canned Tamales: It sure is.  Asshole lunatics who've taken a single pseudo-scientific college gender studies course read World Net Daily and decided they know best about everything, and want to force all of society to function just the way a tiny minority want it to, no matter how the majority feels and what people with elitist edmification have discovered in their so-called universities.


Dailymailed that for you.
 
2013-02-28 08:08:41 PM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

What sort of a damn-fool question is that? It's like asking "at what point in fetal development has science determined that perfect pitch develops." It's a completely meaningless question; the best we can do is say "Dunno. That's how they pop out."


You're the one spouting all-knowing on gender "Identity". If it happens during brain development completely aside of physical development, educate me.
 
2013-02-28 08:10:23 PM

TheDumbBlonde: Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.


That bears no relation whatsoever to what Bronymedic posted. You may care to reconsider the phrase "brain bias" in his post.
 
2013-02-28 08:10:52 PM
Ah, the intolerant tolerant. Those, who with open arms accept everything and everybody, love everything. They celebrate everyone's life choices regardless of the inevitable outcome based on the reality we live in. However, if you disagree with the wonderfully enlightened indivuidal, then you are an ignorant bigot, and should "educate yourself" even if you may actually have more education than them. Those who are loving, sensitive, and caring of everyone, except those that disagree with them.They are the real problem with society.It's almost like a...crusade, of sorts.Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.
 
2013-02-28 08:12:53 PM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

What sort of a damn-fool question is that? It's like asking "at what point in fetal development has science determined that perfect pitch develops." It's a completely meaningless question; the best we can do is say "Dunno. That's how they pop out."


It was a good question and the answer seems to be found here (posted above)

I'd rather not have to copy-pasta paragraphs here from there.
 
2013-02-28 08:13:49 PM

TheDumbBlonde: You're the one spouting all-knowing on gender "Identity". If it happens during brain development completely aside of physical development, educate me.


Brain development IS physical development. Oh, and and babies develop in "utero"; "utereo" is the CD player in an Australian pick-up truck.
 
2013-02-28 08:14:25 PM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.

That bears no relation whatsoever to what Bronymedic posted. You may care to reconsider the phrase "brain bias" in his post.


Dude, you just posted that they is way they "pop out". And you used the term "they", I did not. As to considering the phrase "brain bias": I consider it everytime I see "brony" in a sentence.
 
2013-02-28 08:15:41 PM

Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.


Teach the controversy!
 
2013-02-28 08:17:31 PM
Jeez!  It's been long time since I've seen so many TG trolls [pro AND con]!

Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?
 
2013-02-28 08:17:45 PM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: You're the one spouting all-knowing on gender "Identity". If it happens during brain development completely aside of physical development, educate me.

Brain development IS physical development. Oh, and and babies develop in "utero"; "utereo" is the CD player in an Australian pick-up truck.


Status Update: Losing ground -Level 2 revert to typo observation. Make pop-culture reference.
 
2013-02-28 08:18:22 PM

orbister: Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.

Teach the controversy!


Way to take the bait!   too easy.
 
2013-02-28 08:18:52 PM

orbister: Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.

Teach the controversy!


Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.
 
2013-02-28 08:18:52 PM

MelGoesOnTour: Jeez!  It's been long time since I've seen so many TG trolls [pro AND con]!

Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?


I'm bored to tears.
 
2013-02-28 08:24:55 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.


Not at all. I was responding to the idea, popular on the right, that ill-informed bigotry and credulous stupidity have every right to be taken as seriously as evidence-based points of view. "Stop oppressing us with your facts" they wail.
 
2013-02-28 08:26:25 PM

TheDumbBlonde: Status Update: Losing ground


In what sense do you believe that the the structure of the brain - the physical structure of the brain - is not an aspect of physical development?
 
2013-02-28 08:26:43 PM

orbister: tinfoil-hat maggie: Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.

Not at all. I was responding to the idea, popular on the right, that ill-informed bigotry and credulous stupidity have every right to be taken as seriously as evidence-based points of view. "Stop oppressing us with your facts" they wail.


I'm still waiting on your facts, Genius.
 
2013-02-28 08:27:38 PM

MelGoesOnTour: Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?


[somebodyiswrongontheinternet.jpg]
 
2013-02-28 08:29:13 PM

TheDumbBlonde: I'm still waiting on your facts, Genius.


You could start with the link posted by tinfoil-hat maggie.
 
2013-02-28 08:29:16 PM

orbister: tinfoil-hat maggie: Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.

Not at all. I was responding to the idea, popular on the right, that ill-informed bigotry and credulous stupidity have every right to be taken as seriously as evidence-based points of view. "Stop oppressing us with your facts" they wail.


Oh cool, sorry reading this thread has given me a headache and a loathing for humanity or at least a portion of it.
 
2013-02-28 08:32:05 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: orbister: Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.

Teach the controversy!

Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.


Thank you! And I see I already have a few bites! Notice how i was SEROIUSLY called ignorant and bigoted in response? Awesome.

/leans back in chair with tented fingers

//cackles

///slashies?
 
2013-02-28 08:32:08 PM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: Status Update: Losing ground

In what sense do you believe that the the structure of the brain - the physical structure of the brain - is not an aspect of physical development?


Ok. Let's address this. I was adressing the premise stated above that specifically brain development was the cause of gender identity, and that that development was seperate and distinct from physical development, ie., body parts. I took this to believe that the chemicals that "teach' the brain they are male or female do so differently from teaching the brain to develop body parts. Enlighten me, but let's leave out the chromo abs.
 
2013-02-28 08:32:40 PM

TheDumbBlonde: MelGoesOnTour: Jeez!  It's been long time since I've seen so many TG trolls [pro AND con]!

Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?

I'm bored to tears.


Heh. Ditto.  But it's fun to watch.  *cough*
 
2013-02-28 08:36:13 PM
Nubenstein: Actually I wasn't talking about you.It seems I may have been mistaken about someone else though, but then I can admit that I can be wrong.
 
2013-02-28 08:45:06 PM

TheDumbBlonde: orbister: TheDumbBlonde: Status Update: Losing ground

In what sense do you believe that the the structure of the brain - the physical structure of the brain - is not an aspect of physical development?

Ok. Let's address this. I was adressing the premise stated above that specifically brain development was the cause of gender identity, and that that development was seperate and distinct from physical development, ie., body parts. I took this to believe that the chemicals that "teach' the brain they are male or female do so differently from teaching the brain to develop body parts. Enlighten me, but let's leave out the chromo abs.


Well, I'll post it again too you.
Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity


From the link:
Once the differentiation of the sexual organs into male or female is settled, the next thing that is differentiated is the brain, under the influence, mainly, of sex hormones on the developing brain cells. The changes (permanent) brought about in this stage have organizing effects; later, during puberty, the brain circuits that developed in the womb are activated by sex hormones. This paradigm of sexual differentiation of the brain has been well established, ever since the first paper by Phoenix et al. (2).

The early development of boys shows two periods during which testosterone levels are known to be high. The first surge occurs during mid-pregnancy: testosterone levels peak in the fetal serum between weeks 12 and 18 of pregnancy (18) and in weeks 34-41 of pregnancy the testosterone levels of boys are ten times higher than those of girls (19). The second surge takes place in the first three months after birth. At the end of pregnancy, when the alpha-fetoprotein level declines, the fetus is more exposed to estrogens from the placenta, this exposure inhibiting the hypothalamus-hypophysial-gonadal axis of the developing child. Loss of this inhibition once the child is born causes a peak in testosterone in boys and a peak in estrogens in girls (20). The testosterone level in boys at this time is as high as it will be in adulthood, although a large part of the hormone circulates bound.

During these two periods, therefore, girls do not show high levels of testosterone.
 
2013-02-28 08:53:07 PM
They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.
 
2013-02-28 08:57:18 PM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


I suggest staying off the drugs and wait and see what his/ her chest does... expects moobs, not boobs.....
 
2013-02-28 08:57:45 PM

TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.


During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!
 
2013-02-28 09:01:41 PM

OlderGuy: Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?

I suggest staying off the drugs and wait and see what his/ her chest does... expects moobs, not boobs.....


More like expect suicide and no child without treatment.
/Really hope you don't have kids and if you do they never go through that.
 
2013-02-28 09:05:40 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!


How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?
 
2013-02-28 09:15:06 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!

How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?


If you read the link you'd know, they know by checking the uterine fluid for hormone levels, granted it is a bit complex but it is a well established fact that there are two stages in human fetal development and they can happen independently since they happen at different times in development.
 
2013-02-28 09:32:01 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!

How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?

If you read the link you'd know, they know by checking the uterine fluid for hormone levels, granted it is a bit complex but it is a well established fact that there are two stages in human fetal development and they can happen independently since they happen at different times in development.


Bullshiat.
 
2013-02-28 09:37:06 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!

How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?

If you read the link you'd know, they know by checking the uterine fluid for hormone levels, granted it is a bit complex but it is a well established fact that there are two stages in human fetal development and they can happen independently since they happen at different times in development.

Bullshiat.


Nice reply, can I ask why it's bullsiat?
 
2013-02-28 09:39:37 PM
Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?
 
2013-02-28 09:42:35 PM
And really this many post and no mention of this....
upload.wikimedia.org
Ma Vie En Rose- trailer
 
2013-02-28 09:46:11 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?


Damn. You reverted to the "you must be be ignorant" card, and the dumb blonde thing? You lose a timeout and loss of down. 3rd down.
 
2013-02-28 09:50:59 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?

Damn. You reverted to the "you must be be ignorant" card, and the dumb blonde thing? You lose a timeout and loss of down. 3rd down.


"oh I know you feel it so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant'
I am so totally putting that on cocktail napkins for tailgating season in the fall. (It's not expensive.).
 
2013-02-28 10:10:11 PM
If we could 'cure' homosexuality in utero by application of testosterone or, conversely, estrogen at the appropriate timings, would that be something good? We'd be, in essence, correcting a biological malformation, like putting braces on crooked teeth or fixing a cleft palate.
 
2013-02-28 10:16:23 PM

TheDumbBlonde: Bullshiat.


Well, I suppose that you can go that route when the actual science of the matter disagrees completely with your opinion. You've already gone the "BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW", Just Asking Questions(TM) route about it which proves you didn't even read what was linked by tinfoil-hat-maggie.

But, since you're going to cry out "bullshiat", can I ask what field you are in, or what credentials you have for you to make that expert statement? Perhaps how many credits you've taken in college on Psychology, Genetics, Developmental Biology, Physiology, or Psychiatric Medicine?
 
2013-02-28 10:19:15 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?

Damn. You reverted to the "you must be be ignorant" card, and the dumb blonde thing? You lose a timeout and loss of down. 3rd down.


You asked a question, I answered you said bullshiat. I even gave you the link where the answer came from I'm not that smart but there are fact available and if you choose to ignore them that's up to you. ie remain in ignorance, you're the one that asked the question and chooses not to believe it.

/I also noticed that you didn't reply to "why it was bullshiat?"
 
2013-02-28 10:21:52 PM

BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: Bullshiat.

Well, I suppose that you can go that route when the actual science of the matter disagrees completely with your opinion. You've already gone the "BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW", Just Asking Questions(TM) route about it which proves you didn't even read what was linked by tinfoil-hat-maggie.

But, since you're going to cry out "bullshiat", can I ask what field you are in, or what credentials you have for you to make that expert statement? Perhaps how many credits you've taken in college on Psychology, Genetics, Developmental Biology, Physiology, or Psychiatric Medicine?


Heh, thank you I'm liking you more and more BronyMedic
 
2013-02-28 10:29:22 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: If we could 'cure' homosexuality in utero by application of testosterone or, conversely, estrogen at the appropriate timings, would that be something good? We'd be, in essence, correcting a biological malformation, like putting braces on crooked teeth or fixing a cleft palate.


I know you're a troll, but I'll bite for the sake of intellectual argument.

Except for the fact that homosexuality, bisexuality, and other sexual orientations have not been considered a disease since the 1970s, you might have a point. Unlike pathological sexual orientations, like pedophilia, these cause no harm to any individuals, and are not considered "abnormalities" or "malformations" just because they differentiate from a societal norm in the United States. They are normal variations of sexual orientation - which is completely different as a concept from gender identity, which - in turn, is a completely different concept than sexual identity. Chromosomally, someone can be male - capable of producing sperm - and developmentally grow a "female" brain that is not a homosexual in sexual orientation.

Deviation from a social norm is not a disease.

It's not something as simple as "Little johnny likes to play with dolls, so he MUST be a girl." To even begin sex reassignment therapy, a child has to be evaluated by multiple professionals in pediatric psychiatry and psychology, and then live as the gender he/she is transitioning to for years before starting sex reassignment hormonal therapy. The REASON they target children that early for the drug therapy is that if they undergo puberty before beginning treatment, they develop secondary sex characteristics, and it become far more dangerous, painful, and surgically intensive to perform reassignment - requiring multiple plastic surgery procedures. By targeting them BEFORE puberty and the development of secondary sex characteristics, they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

Contrary to what some have suggested in this thread, it's bloody hard for someone to live as the opposite gender in the United States before starting SRS. It's not a sexual fetish, either. These people face ridicule, domestic and workplace violence and harassment, and have high rates of suicide, rape, assault, and murder.

In addition, you have the problem of administering the right dose at the right time and doing so in a manner that does not adversely effect the mother or the fetus. Sex hormones, in high doses, can be teratogenic in fetal development, and pose very high risks of injury or death to the expecting mother. In addition, you have the legal, ethical, and moral problems of conducting human experimentation on an unborn fetus - which are so monumental that it makes that kind of research very rare and mostly non-invasive.
 
2013-02-28 10:31:35 PM
Oh, and as for transgenderism being a sexual fetish - instead of a mental and physical condition - as some of the people posting in this thread have stated? One of the major side effects of sexual reassignment therapy, both surgery and hormonal therapy, is a loss of sex drive and function.
 
2013-02-28 10:46:41 PM

BronyMedic: they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.


It was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:08 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: t was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.


Yeah, you're right. Even among adults, they will sometimes encourage a person to keep their external genitalia if they intend to have children, and they pretty much warn them that there's no guarantee they will be able to even have sex afterwords. While Hormone therapy and even physical castration are steps that are not that hard to perform, surgical reassignment has a lot of risks.

Even a child that has been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder will have to go through MULTIPLE Psychiatrists, Social Workers, Psychologists, and Medical Specialists before they're cleared to start Hormone Replacement Therapy.

As far as I know, the earliest that a Western country has done the actual SRS was 16, and that was the Kim Petras case in Germany. I was talking about the hormone drugs themselves - one of their major side effects is that they kill the ability for someone to feel arrousal, or kill the physiological ability for the body to express arrousal.

/one of the best Paramedics I ever knew was a FTM transsexual. It was weird to hear him describe how he felt alien in his own body.
//seeing the hell he went through from people she worked with, were related to, and didn't even know when reassigning made me pretty much realize that no one in their right mind would "choose" to transition strictly because they have a sexual fetish.
 
2013-02-28 11:01:58 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: BronyMedic: they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

It was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.





Kim Petras had hers at sixteen, and is listed in the article as the youngest. And there was a thread on Fark at the time, with many of the usual suspects posting the usual ignorant garbage.
 
2013-02-28 11:13:35 PM

ringersol: Are we not going to talk about the name "Coy" in the first place?
Was this covered in another thread?  Does that pass for normal elsewhere?
Or is it just not-farked-up-enough to register?


Okay.

Chick + Boy - hickB = Coy

To insure androgyny, parents should have named the kid "Pat."
 
2013-02-28 11:13:42 PM

BronyMedic: tinfoil-hat maggie: t was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.

Yeah, you're right. Even among adults, they will sometimes encourage a person to keep their external genitalia if they intend to have children, and they pretty much warn them that there's no guarantee they will be able to even have sex afterwords. While Hormone therapy and even physical castration are steps that are not that hard to perform, surgical reassignment has a lot of risks.

Even a child that has been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder will have to go through MULTIPLE Psychiatrists, Social Workers, Psychologists, and Medical Specialists before they're cleared to start Hormone Replacement Therapy.

As far as I know, the earliest that a Western country has done the actual SRS was 16, and that was the Kim Petras case in Germany. I was talking about the hormone drugs themselves - one of their major side effects is that they kill the ability for someone to feel arrousal, or kill the physiological ability for the body to express arrousal.

/one of the best Paramedics I ever knew was a FTM transsexual. It was weird to hear him describe how he felt alien in his own body.
//seeing the hell he went through from people she worked with, were related to, and didn't even know when reassigning made me pretty much realize that no one in their right mind would "choose" to transition strictly because they have a sexual fetish.


Thanks, I forgot Kim Petras was 16, most western countries will only allow it after 18.

And well I could say more on the other stuff but well I'm not really in the mood but good on you for being accepting, and understating of your coworker. And obviously reading some stuff about it all.
 
2013-02-28 11:16:53 PM

Repo Man: tinfoil-hat maggie: BronyMedic: they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

It was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.

Kim Petras had hers at sixteen, and is listed in the article as the youngest. And there was a thread on Fark at the time, with many of the usual suspects posting the usual ignorant garbage.


Yea I just forgot she was 16 but I remember her case. Also I really don't think that's too young. Someone that's dealing with this already knows buy then.
 
2013-02-28 11:19:40 PM

RastaKins: Okay.

Chick + Boy - hickB = Coy

To insure androgyny, parents should have named the kid "Pat."


Except for the well documented fact that kids who are biologicaly and gender identify as male being raised by girls causes them to recoil and rebel against being raised that way from every step, and would never pass muster with even the first psychologist or psychiatrist they'd have to visit to have their biological gender listed as "female" on a passport or state ID, yeah. You might have a point.

The people who have in this thread insisted that it's the parents fault, or they just need to hit her more, need to have something bad befall them as a karmic punishment for their stupidity. In reality, it's VERY HARD for someone to do what they have done with this child, and people have fought decades long legal cases to do just that as adults.

It's not as simple as someone saying "Oh, little billy likes dolls and dresses in mommy's clothing. He MUST be a girl!". It's a multi-year long process that involves multiple people who are trained in pediatrics, genetics, gender and sexual psychology, social work, and psychiatric medical professionals every step of the way.
 
2013-02-28 11:40:24 PM

BronyMedic: RastaKins: Okay.

Chick + Boy - hickB = Coy

To insure androgyny, parents should have named the kid "Pat."

Except for the well documented fact that kids who are biologicaly and gender identify as male being raised by girls causes them to recoil and rebel against being raised that way from every step, and would never pass muster with even the first psychologist or psychiatrist they'd have to visit to have their biological gender listed as "female" on a passport or state ID, yeah. You might have a point.

The people who have in this thread insisted that it's the parents fault, or they just need to hit her more, need to have something bad befall them as a karmic punishment for their stupidity. In reality, it's VERY HARD for someone to do what they have done with this child, and people have fought decades long legal cases to do just that as adults.

It's not as simple as someone saying "Oh, little billy likes dolls and dresses in mommy's clothing. He MUST be a girl!". It's a multi-year long process that involves multiple people who are trained in pediatrics, genetics, gender and sexual psychology, social work, and psychiatric medical professionals every step of the way.


This, so much this, even for adult's there are many steps to go through. And well the cost of it all can be beyond most people. Considering insurance don't cover things like this (at least in the USi
 
2013-02-28 11:51:48 PM
Considering insurance don't cover things like this (at least in the USi

Well it seems I'm finally getting drunk, since my typo's are increasing oh well mostly because I'm chugging beer. Anyway fark you hater's and trolls.

"Both suicide attempts and completed suicides are common in transgendered persons. Studies generally report a pre-transition suicide attempt rate of 20% or more, with MTFs relatively more likely to attempt suicide than FTMs. There is some evidence that transsexual people are less likely to attempt suicide once they have completed the transition to the other sex."

From here.
 
2013-03-01 12:24:02 AM
Not reading all that hurtful garbage. Just chiming in to say that I don't like you all for rubbing your privilege into the faces of the most senselessly abused and exploited minority group in the world. That's farked up, you're all very small people.
 
2013-03-01 12:31:00 AM

ClockworkRingtail: Not reading all that hurtful garbage. Just chiming in to say that I don't like you all for rubbing your privilege into the faces of the most senselessly abused and exploited minority group in the world. That's farked up, you're all very small people.


Hugs, and yea I know and understand. I hate this thread so much except there were some really good people in it but yea I wish I hadn't read it.
 
2013-03-01 01:15:47 AM

BronyMedic: AverageAmericanGuy: If we could 'cure' homosexuality in utero by application of testosterone or, conversely, estrogen at the appropriate timings, would that be something good? We'd be, in essence, correcting a biological malformation, like putting braces on crooked teeth or fixing a cleft palate.

I know you're a troll, but I'll bite for the sake of intellectual argument.


Except for the fact that homosexuality, bisexuality, and other sexual orientations have not been considered a disease since the 1970s, you might have a point. Unlike pathological sexual orientations, like pedophilia, these cause no harm to any individuals, and are not considered "abnormalities" or "malformations" just because they differentiate from a societal norm in the United States. They are normal variations of sexual orientation - which is completely different as a concept from gender identity, which - in turn, is a completely different concept than sexual identity. Chromosomally, someone can be male - capable of producing sperm - and developmentally grow a "female" brain that is not a homosexual in sexual orientation.

Do you not say in your own comment that the people who have these deviations suffer deeply because of them? While social acceptance may be a worthy goal, if medical science can fix the deviation (which has a physical cause), are we willing to let the deviation persist knowing that children born with the gender confusion will suffer for it?

Deviation from a social norm is not a disease.

I am not saying it is. I am only referring to the citations above describing the in utero physical mechanisms which lead to the abnormal brain development. We use hormone treatments all the time: to prevent pregnancy, to allay the effects of menopause, to augment athletic performance, etc. The treated conditions aren't diseases, but they are unwanted conditions.

Is gender confusion something that should be embraced? If it is treatable, isn't it worth treating when the costs are small rather than after the fact when the costs are astronomical and the psychological damage has already been wrought?

It's not something as simple as "Little johnny likes to play with dolls, so he MUST be a girl." To even begin sex reassignment therapy, a child has to be evaluated by multiple professionals in pediatric psychiatry and psychology, and then live as the gender he/she is transitioning to for years before starting sex reassignment hormonal therapy. The REASON they target children that early for the drug therapy is that if they undergo puberty before beginning treatment, they develop secondary sex characteristics, and it become far more dangerous, painful, and surgically intensive to perform reassignment - requiring multiple plastic surgery procedures. By targeting them BEFORE puberty and the development of secondary sex characteristics, they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

I'm suggesting, then, only a shift in the treatment. And rather than ushering the deviation along, I'm suggesting it be stopped in its tracks at the onset of the developmental change. If, as maggie has described above, the problem is a lack or an abundance of the wrong hormone during fetal development, is this not something that can be identified pretty easily as a target for hormone treatment? If the transgendered individuals are that way because of an accident during their time in the womb, why the adamancy against treatment?

Contrary to what some have suggested in this thread, it's bloody hard for someone to live as the opposite gender in the United States before starting SRS. It's not a sexual fetish, either. These people face ridicule, domestic and workplace violence and harassment, and have high rates of suicide, rape, assault, and murder.

And that's terrible. But it's only germane to the problem of social acceptance, which I completely support. Of course people shouldn't be forced to live terrible lives at the hands of terrible people.

What if that could be made moot by solving the problem of gender confusion? That's what I'm suggesting. Not to demean people for who they are but to make sure that the mistakes of nature (abnormal hormone levels at specific phases of fetal development) are resolved before they take their toll on the individual.

In addition, you have the problem of administering the right dose at the right time and doing so in a manner that does not adversely effect the mother or the fetus. Sex hormones, in high doses, can be teratogenic in fetal development, and pose very high risks of injury or death to the expecting mother. In addition, you have the legal, ethical, and moral problems of conducting human experimentation on an unborn fetus - which are so monumental that it makes that kind of research very rare and mostly non-invasive.

Obviously we are nowhere near being able to provide the treatments I'm suggesting. But technology progresses. Medicine progresses. Is it not worthwhile to pursue solutions to problems that can be solved?
 
2013-03-01 01:24:48 AM
AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.
 
2013-03-01 01:35:53 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.


Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?
 
2013-03-01 01:55:38 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?


I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.
 
2013-03-01 02:00:26 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?

I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.


Stop looking up my bias, creep.
No need for the lobotomy. I never did have any teenage depression.
 
2013-03-01 02:06:30 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?

I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.

Stop looking up my bias, creep.
No need for the lobotomy. I never did have any teenage depression.


I don't believe you. Make your move
 
2013-03-01 02:12:56 AM