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(Canoe)   School authorities say that transgendered six-year old is no longer allowed to use the girl's room at the school. Wow, dick move   (cnews.canoe.ca) divider line 577
    More: Stupid, public accommodations, Civil Rights Commission, Human Rights Act, elementary schools, male genitalia  
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7263 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Feb 2013 at 10:01 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-28 08:26:43 PM

orbister: tinfoil-hat maggie: Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.

Not at all. I was responding to the idea, popular on the right, that ill-informed bigotry and credulous stupidity have every right to be taken as seriously as evidence-based points of view. "Stop oppressing us with your facts" they wail.


I'm still waiting on your facts, Genius.
 
2013-02-28 08:27:38 PM

MelGoesOnTour: Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?


[somebodyiswrongontheinternet.jpg]
 
2013-02-28 08:29:13 PM

TheDumbBlonde: I'm still waiting on your facts, Genius.


You could start with the link posted by tinfoil-hat maggie.
 
2013-02-28 08:29:16 PM

orbister: tinfoil-hat maggie: Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.

Not at all. I was responding to the idea, popular on the right, that ill-informed bigotry and credulous stupidity have every right to be taken as seriously as evidence-based points of view. "Stop oppressing us with your facts" they wail.


Oh cool, sorry reading this thread has given me a headache and a loathing for humanity or at least a portion of it.
 
2013-02-28 08:32:05 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: orbister: Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.

Teach the controversy!

Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.


Thank you! And I see I already have a few bites! Notice how i was SEROIUSLY called ignorant and bigoted in response? Awesome.

/leans back in chair with tented fingers

//cackles

///slashies?
 
2013-02-28 08:32:08 PM

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: Status Update: Losing ground

In what sense do you believe that the the structure of the brain - the physical structure of the brain - is not an aspect of physical development?


Ok. Let's address this. I was adressing the premise stated above that specifically brain development was the cause of gender identity, and that that development was seperate and distinct from physical development, ie., body parts. I took this to believe that the chemicals that "teach' the brain they are male or female do so differently from teaching the brain to develop body parts. Enlighten me, but let's leave out the chromo abs.
 
2013-02-28 08:32:40 PM

TheDumbBlonde: MelGoesOnTour: Jeez!  It's been long time since I've seen so many TG trolls [pro AND con]!

Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?

I'm bored to tears.


Heh. Ditto.  But it's fun to watch.  *cough*
 
2013-02-28 08:36:13 PM
Nubenstein: Actually I wasn't talking about you.It seems I may have been mistaken about someone else though, but then I can admit that I can be wrong.
 
2013-02-28 08:45:06 PM

TheDumbBlonde: orbister: TheDumbBlonde: Status Update: Losing ground

In what sense do you believe that the the structure of the brain - the physical structure of the brain - is not an aspect of physical development?

Ok. Let's address this. I was adressing the premise stated above that specifically brain development was the cause of gender identity, and that that development was seperate and distinct from physical development, ie., body parts. I took this to believe that the chemicals that "teach' the brain they are male or female do so differently from teaching the brain to develop body parts. Enlighten me, but let's leave out the chromo abs.


Well, I'll post it again too you.
Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity


From the link:
Once the differentiation of the sexual organs into male or female is settled, the next thing that is differentiated is the brain, under the influence, mainly, of sex hormones on the developing brain cells. The changes (permanent) brought about in this stage have organizing effects; later, during puberty, the brain circuits that developed in the womb are activated by sex hormones. This paradigm of sexual differentiation of the brain has been well established, ever since the first paper by Phoenix et al. (2).

The early development of boys shows two periods during which testosterone levels are known to be high. The first surge occurs during mid-pregnancy: testosterone levels peak in the fetal serum between weeks 12 and 18 of pregnancy (18) and in weeks 34-41 of pregnancy the testosterone levels of boys are ten times higher than those of girls (19). The second surge takes place in the first three months after birth. At the end of pregnancy, when the alpha-fetoprotein level declines, the fetus is more exposed to estrogens from the placenta, this exposure inhibiting the hypothalamus-hypophysial-gonadal axis of the developing child. Loss of this inhibition once the child is born causes a peak in testosterone in boys and a peak in estrogens in girls (20). The testosterone level in boys at this time is as high as it will be in adulthood, although a large part of the hormone circulates bound.

During these two periods, therefore, girls do not show high levels of testosterone.
 
2013-02-28 08:53:07 PM
They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.
 
2013-02-28 08:57:18 PM

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


I suggest staying off the drugs and wait and see what his/ her chest does... expects moobs, not boobs.....
 
2013-02-28 08:57:45 PM

TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.


During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!
 
2013-02-28 09:01:41 PM

OlderGuy: Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?

I suggest staying off the drugs and wait and see what his/ her chest does... expects moobs, not boobs.....


More like expect suicide and no child without treatment.
/Really hope you don't have kids and if you do they never go through that.
 
2013-02-28 09:05:40 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!


How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?
 
2013-02-28 09:15:06 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!

How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?


If you read the link you'd know, they know by checking the uterine fluid for hormone levels, granted it is a bit complex but it is a well established fact that there are two stages in human fetal development and they can happen independently since they happen at different times in development.
 
2013-02-28 09:32:01 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!

How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?

If you read the link you'd know, they know by checking the uterine fluid for hormone levels, granted it is a bit complex but it is a well established fact that there are two stages in human fetal development and they can happen independently since they happen at different times in development.


Bullshiat.
 
2013-02-28 09:37:06 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: TheDumbBlonde: They only thing I got from that poorly written quote  was that testosterone levels were higher in developing male boys and higher estrogen levels in girls. Yes, I'm being overtly and obnoxiously simplistic, but my question remains the same: WHEN DOES BRAIN DEVELOPMENT MAKE YOU A GENDER....NOT A SEX, in y'alls terms. Thanks.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops. And no need to yell.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently,

/BETER!!!!

How do you know that? How do you measure the sexual differentiation of a baby's brain?

If you read the link you'd know, they know by checking the uterine fluid for hormone levels, granted it is a bit complex but it is a well established fact that there are two stages in human fetal development and they can happen independently since they happen at different times in development.

Bullshiat.


Nice reply, can I ask why it's bullsiat?
 
2013-02-28 09:39:37 PM
Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?
 
2013-02-28 09:42:35 PM
And really this many post and no mention of this....
upload.wikimedia.org
Ma Vie En Rose- trailer
 
2013-02-28 09:46:11 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?


Damn. You reverted to the "you must be be ignorant" card, and the dumb blonde thing? You lose a timeout and loss of down. 3rd down.
 
2013-02-28 09:50:59 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?

Damn. You reverted to the "you must be be ignorant" card, and the dumb blonde thing? You lose a timeout and loss of down. 3rd down.


"oh I know you feel it so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant'
I am so totally putting that on cocktail napkins for tailgating season in the fall. (It's not expensive.).
 
2013-02-28 10:10:11 PM
If we could 'cure' homosexuality in utero by application of testosterone or, conversely, estrogen at the appropriate timings, would that be something good? We'd be, in essence, correcting a biological malformation, like putting braces on crooked teeth or fixing a cleft palate.
 
2013-02-28 10:16:23 PM

TheDumbBlonde: Bullshiat.


Well, I suppose that you can go that route when the actual science of the matter disagrees completely with your opinion. You've already gone the "BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW", Just Asking Questions(TM) route about it which proves you didn't even read what was linked by tinfoil-hat-maggie.

But, since you're going to cry out "bullshiat", can I ask what field you are in, or what credentials you have for you to make that expert statement? Perhaps how many credits you've taken in college on Psychology, Genetics, Developmental Biology, Physiology, or Psychiatric Medicine?
 
2013-02-28 10:19:15 PM

TheDumbBlonde: tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh, I know you feel it is so it must be well you call yourself Dumb but only you can choose to remain ignorant. Right Dumbblonde?

Damn. You reverted to the "you must be be ignorant" card, and the dumb blonde thing? You lose a timeout and loss of down. 3rd down.


You asked a question, I answered you said bullshiat. I even gave you the link where the answer came from I'm not that smart but there are fact available and if you choose to ignore them that's up to you. ie remain in ignorance, you're the one that asked the question and chooses not to believe it.

/I also noticed that you didn't reply to "why it was bullshiat?"
 
2013-02-28 10:21:52 PM

BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: Bullshiat.

Well, I suppose that you can go that route when the actual science of the matter disagrees completely with your opinion. You've already gone the "BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW", Just Asking Questions(TM) route about it which proves you didn't even read what was linked by tinfoil-hat-maggie.

But, since you're going to cry out "bullshiat", can I ask what field you are in, or what credentials you have for you to make that expert statement? Perhaps how many credits you've taken in college on Psychology, Genetics, Developmental Biology, Physiology, or Psychiatric Medicine?


Heh, thank you I'm liking you more and more BronyMedic
 
2013-02-28 10:29:22 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: If we could 'cure' homosexuality in utero by application of testosterone or, conversely, estrogen at the appropriate timings, would that be something good? We'd be, in essence, correcting a biological malformation, like putting braces on crooked teeth or fixing a cleft palate.


I know you're a troll, but I'll bite for the sake of intellectual argument.

Except for the fact that homosexuality, bisexuality, and other sexual orientations have not been considered a disease since the 1970s, you might have a point. Unlike pathological sexual orientations, like pedophilia, these cause no harm to any individuals, and are not considered "abnormalities" or "malformations" just because they differentiate from a societal norm in the United States. They are normal variations of sexual orientation - which is completely different as a concept from gender identity, which - in turn, is a completely different concept than sexual identity. Chromosomally, someone can be male - capable of producing sperm - and developmentally grow a "female" brain that is not a homosexual in sexual orientation.

Deviation from a social norm is not a disease.

It's not something as simple as "Little johnny likes to play with dolls, so he MUST be a girl." To even begin sex reassignment therapy, a child has to be evaluated by multiple professionals in pediatric psychiatry and psychology, and then live as the gender he/she is transitioning to for years before starting sex reassignment hormonal therapy. The REASON they target children that early for the drug therapy is that if they undergo puberty before beginning treatment, they develop secondary sex characteristics, and it become far more dangerous, painful, and surgically intensive to perform reassignment - requiring multiple plastic surgery procedures. By targeting them BEFORE puberty and the development of secondary sex characteristics, they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

Contrary to what some have suggested in this thread, it's bloody hard for someone to live as the opposite gender in the United States before starting SRS. It's not a sexual fetish, either. These people face ridicule, domestic and workplace violence and harassment, and have high rates of suicide, rape, assault, and murder.

In addition, you have the problem of administering the right dose at the right time and doing so in a manner that does not adversely effect the mother or the fetus. Sex hormones, in high doses, can be teratogenic in fetal development, and pose very high risks of injury or death to the expecting mother. In addition, you have the legal, ethical, and moral problems of conducting human experimentation on an unborn fetus - which are so monumental that it makes that kind of research very rare and mostly non-invasive.
 
2013-02-28 10:31:35 PM
Oh, and as for transgenderism being a sexual fetish - instead of a mental and physical condition - as some of the people posting in this thread have stated? One of the major side effects of sexual reassignment therapy, both surgery and hormonal therapy, is a loss of sex drive and function.
 
2013-02-28 10:46:41 PM

BronyMedic: they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.


It was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:08 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: t was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.


Yeah, you're right. Even among adults, they will sometimes encourage a person to keep their external genitalia if they intend to have children, and they pretty much warn them that there's no guarantee they will be able to even have sex afterwords. While Hormone therapy and even physical castration are steps that are not that hard to perform, surgical reassignment has a lot of risks.

Even a child that has been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder will have to go through MULTIPLE Psychiatrists, Social Workers, Psychologists, and Medical Specialists before they're cleared to start Hormone Replacement Therapy.

As far as I know, the earliest that a Western country has done the actual SRS was 16, and that was the Kim Petras case in Germany. I was talking about the hormone drugs themselves - one of their major side effects is that they kill the ability for someone to feel arrousal, or kill the physiological ability for the body to express arrousal.

/one of the best Paramedics I ever knew was a FTM transsexual. It was weird to hear him describe how he felt alien in his own body.
//seeing the hell he went through from people she worked with, were related to, and didn't even know when reassigning made me pretty much realize that no one in their right mind would "choose" to transition strictly because they have a sexual fetish.
 
2013-02-28 11:01:58 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: BronyMedic: they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

It was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.





Kim Petras had hers at sixteen, and is listed in the article as the youngest. And there was a thread on Fark at the time, with many of the usual suspects posting the usual ignorant garbage.
 
2013-02-28 11:13:35 PM

ringersol: Are we not going to talk about the name "Coy" in the first place?
Was this covered in another thread?  Does that pass for normal elsewhere?
Or is it just not-farked-up-enough to register?


Okay.

Chick + Boy - hickB = Coy

To insure androgyny, parents should have named the kid "Pat."
 
2013-02-28 11:13:42 PM

BronyMedic: tinfoil-hat maggie: t was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.

Yeah, you're right. Even among adults, they will sometimes encourage a person to keep their external genitalia if they intend to have children, and they pretty much warn them that there's no guarantee they will be able to even have sex afterwords. While Hormone therapy and even physical castration are steps that are not that hard to perform, surgical reassignment has a lot of risks.

Even a child that has been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder will have to go through MULTIPLE Psychiatrists, Social Workers, Psychologists, and Medical Specialists before they're cleared to start Hormone Replacement Therapy.

As far as I know, the earliest that a Western country has done the actual SRS was 16, and that was the Kim Petras case in Germany. I was talking about the hormone drugs themselves - one of their major side effects is that they kill the ability for someone to feel arrousal, or kill the physiological ability for the body to express arrousal.

/one of the best Paramedics I ever knew was a FTM transsexual. It was weird to hear him describe how he felt alien in his own body.
//seeing the hell he went through from people she worked with, were related to, and didn't even know when reassigning made me pretty much realize that no one in their right mind would "choose" to transition strictly because they have a sexual fetish.


Thanks, I forgot Kim Petras was 16, most western countries will only allow it after 18.

And well I could say more on the other stuff but well I'm not really in the mood but good on you for being accepting, and understating of your coworker. And obviously reading some stuff about it all.
 
2013-02-28 11:16:53 PM

Repo Man: tinfoil-hat maggie: BronyMedic: they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

It was my understanding, forgive me if I'm wrong, SRS sexual reassignment surgery, that's the actual reconstruction of the genitals and that only happens once the child reaches 18 at the earliest. Although HRT hormone replacement therapy should begin before the secondary sexual characteristics are formed.ie right before or at puberty.

Kim Petras had hers at sixteen, and is listed in the article as the youngest. And there was a thread on Fark at the time, with many of the usual suspects posting the usual ignorant garbage.


Yea I just forgot she was 16 but I remember her case. Also I really don't think that's too young. Someone that's dealing with this already knows buy then.
 
2013-02-28 11:19:40 PM

RastaKins: Okay.

Chick + Boy - hickB = Coy

To insure androgyny, parents should have named the kid "Pat."


Except for the well documented fact that kids who are biologicaly and gender identify as male being raised by girls causes them to recoil and rebel against being raised that way from every step, and would never pass muster with even the first psychologist or psychiatrist they'd have to visit to have their biological gender listed as "female" on a passport or state ID, yeah. You might have a point.

The people who have in this thread insisted that it's the parents fault, or they just need to hit her more, need to have something bad befall them as a karmic punishment for their stupidity. In reality, it's VERY HARD for someone to do what they have done with this child, and people have fought decades long legal cases to do just that as adults.

It's not as simple as someone saying "Oh, little billy likes dolls and dresses in mommy's clothing. He MUST be a girl!". It's a multi-year long process that involves multiple people who are trained in pediatrics, genetics, gender and sexual psychology, social work, and psychiatric medical professionals every step of the way.
 
2013-02-28 11:40:24 PM

BronyMedic: RastaKins: Okay.

Chick + Boy - hickB = Coy

To insure androgyny, parents should have named the kid "Pat."

Except for the well documented fact that kids who are biologicaly and gender identify as male being raised by girls causes them to recoil and rebel against being raised that way from every step, and would never pass muster with even the first psychologist or psychiatrist they'd have to visit to have their biological gender listed as "female" on a passport or state ID, yeah. You might have a point.

The people who have in this thread insisted that it's the parents fault, or they just need to hit her more, need to have something bad befall them as a karmic punishment for their stupidity. In reality, it's VERY HARD for someone to do what they have done with this child, and people have fought decades long legal cases to do just that as adults.

It's not as simple as someone saying "Oh, little billy likes dolls and dresses in mommy's clothing. He MUST be a girl!". It's a multi-year long process that involves multiple people who are trained in pediatrics, genetics, gender and sexual psychology, social work, and psychiatric medical professionals every step of the way.


This, so much this, even for adult's there are many steps to go through. And well the cost of it all can be beyond most people. Considering insurance don't cover things like this (at least in the USi
 
2013-02-28 11:51:48 PM
Considering insurance don't cover things like this (at least in the USi

Well it seems I'm finally getting drunk, since my typo's are increasing oh well mostly because I'm chugging beer. Anyway fark you hater's and trolls.

"Both suicide attempts and completed suicides are common in transgendered persons. Studies generally report a pre-transition suicide attempt rate of 20% or more, with MTFs relatively more likely to attempt suicide than FTMs. There is some evidence that transsexual people are less likely to attempt suicide once they have completed the transition to the other sex."

From here.
 
2013-03-01 12:24:02 AM
Not reading all that hurtful garbage. Just chiming in to say that I don't like you all for rubbing your privilege into the faces of the most senselessly abused and exploited minority group in the world. That's farked up, you're all very small people.
 
2013-03-01 12:31:00 AM

ClockworkRingtail: Not reading all that hurtful garbage. Just chiming in to say that I don't like you all for rubbing your privilege into the faces of the most senselessly abused and exploited minority group in the world. That's farked up, you're all very small people.


Hugs, and yea I know and understand. I hate this thread so much except there were some really good people in it but yea I wish I hadn't read it.
 
2013-03-01 01:15:47 AM

BronyMedic: AverageAmericanGuy: If we could 'cure' homosexuality in utero by application of testosterone or, conversely, estrogen at the appropriate timings, would that be something good? We'd be, in essence, correcting a biological malformation, like putting braces on crooked teeth or fixing a cleft palate.

I know you're a troll, but I'll bite for the sake of intellectual argument.


Except for the fact that homosexuality, bisexuality, and other sexual orientations have not been considered a disease since the 1970s, you might have a point. Unlike pathological sexual orientations, like pedophilia, these cause no harm to any individuals, and are not considered "abnormalities" or "malformations" just because they differentiate from a societal norm in the United States. They are normal variations of sexual orientation - which is completely different as a concept from gender identity, which - in turn, is a completely different concept than sexual identity. Chromosomally, someone can be male - capable of producing sperm - and developmentally grow a "female" brain that is not a homosexual in sexual orientation.

Do you not say in your own comment that the people who have these deviations suffer deeply because of them? While social acceptance may be a worthy goal, if medical science can fix the deviation (which has a physical cause), are we willing to let the deviation persist knowing that children born with the gender confusion will suffer for it?

Deviation from a social norm is not a disease.

I am not saying it is. I am only referring to the citations above describing the in utero physical mechanisms which lead to the abnormal brain development. We use hormone treatments all the time: to prevent pregnancy, to allay the effects of menopause, to augment athletic performance, etc. The treated conditions aren't diseases, but they are unwanted conditions.

Is gender confusion something that should be embraced? If it is treatable, isn't it worth treating when the costs are small rather than after the fact when the costs are astronomical and the psychological damage has already been wrought?

It's not something as simple as "Little johnny likes to play with dolls, so he MUST be a girl." To even begin sex reassignment therapy, a child has to be evaluated by multiple professionals in pediatric psychiatry and psychology, and then live as the gender he/she is transitioning to for years before starting sex reassignment hormonal therapy. The REASON they target children that early for the drug therapy is that if they undergo puberty before beginning treatment, they develop secondary sex characteristics, and it become far more dangerous, painful, and surgically intensive to perform reassignment - requiring multiple plastic surgery procedures. By targeting them BEFORE puberty and the development of secondary sex characteristics, they actually can look the role they feel. It's the reason the Europeans will begin in childhood with SRS.

I'm suggesting, then, only a shift in the treatment. And rather than ushering the deviation along, I'm suggesting it be stopped in its tracks at the onset of the developmental change. If, as maggie has described above, the problem is a lack or an abundance of the wrong hormone during fetal development, is this not something that can be identified pretty easily as a target for hormone treatment? If the transgendered individuals are that way because of an accident during their time in the womb, why the adamancy against treatment?

Contrary to what some have suggested in this thread, it's bloody hard for someone to live as the opposite gender in the United States before starting SRS. It's not a sexual fetish, either. These people face ridicule, domestic and workplace violence and harassment, and have high rates of suicide, rape, assault, and murder.

And that's terrible. But it's only germane to the problem of social acceptance, which I completely support. Of course people shouldn't be forced to live terrible lives at the hands of terrible people.

What if that could be made moot by solving the problem of gender confusion? That's what I'm suggesting. Not to demean people for who they are but to make sure that the mistakes of nature (abnormal hormone levels at specific phases of fetal development) are resolved before they take their toll on the individual.

In addition, you have the problem of administering the right dose at the right time and doing so in a manner that does not adversely effect the mother or the fetus. Sex hormones, in high doses, can be teratogenic in fetal development, and pose very high risks of injury or death to the expecting mother. In addition, you have the legal, ethical, and moral problems of conducting human experimentation on an unborn fetus - which are so monumental that it makes that kind of research very rare and mostly non-invasive.

Obviously we are nowhere near being able to provide the treatments I'm suggesting. But technology progresses. Medicine progresses. Is it not worthwhile to pursue solutions to problems that can be solved?
 
2013-03-01 01:24:48 AM
AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.
 
2013-03-01 01:35:53 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.


Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?
 
2013-03-01 01:55:38 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?


I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.
 
2013-03-01 02:00:26 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?

I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.


Stop looking up my bias, creep.
No need for the lobotomy. I never did have any teenage depression.
 
2013-03-01 02:06:30 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?

I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.

Stop looking up my bias, creep.
No need for the lobotomy. I never did have any teenage depression.


I don't believe you. Make your move
 
2013-03-01 02:12:56 AM

orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?


He's not a girl if he has male genitals.

Sorry.  This sort of thing you don't get to pick.  DNA did it for ya.

The school is doing the right thing by this kid.  CPS should take him from his parents before they warp him entirely.
 
2013-03-01 02:13:22 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?

I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.

Stop looking up my bias, creep.
No need for the lobotomy. I never did have any teenage depression.

I don't believe you. Make your move


My move? Honey, I'm a lover, not a fighter.
 
2013-03-01 02:15:52 AM

Chach: orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?

He's not a girl if he has male genitals.

Sorry.  This sort of thing you don't get to pick.  DNA did it for ya.

The school is doing the right thing by this kid.  CPS should take him from his parents before they warp him entirely.


Well that's like you're opinion man, and it ain't one the psychiatric/medical community agrees with.
 
2013-03-01 02:17:42 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Do you not say in your own comment that the people who have these deviations suffer deeply because of them? While social acceptance may be a worthy goal, if medical science can fix the deviation (which has a physical cause), are we willing to let the deviation persist knowing that children born with the gender confusion will suffer for it?


First off, they're only deviations in the eye of the beholder. There's nothing "deviate" medically or psychologically about these people - they are normal variants of human development of gender identity. Secondly, they suffer because of the close-minded ignorance and bigotry they experience from - more understandably - their peers, and FAR LESS UNDERSTANDINGLY - the adults in their lives, and they suffer inwardly because they are trapped in a body they feel like they are not a part of. It is absolutely monstrous - medico-legally and ethically - to want to tamper with human biology and fetal development in such a manner because you want a "normal" child.

It is far more acceptable to help them transition into being a woman or man, than it is to do what you are suggesting. In reality, it's no different than what the psychiatric community did in the first half of the 20th century when they would imprison people for deviation from social norms, and go as far as to chemically and surgically lobotomize them.

AverageAmericanGuy: I am not saying it is. I am only referring to the citations above describing the in utero physical mechanisms which lead to the abnormal brain development. We use hormone treatments all the time: to prevent pregnancy, to allay the effects of menopause, to augment athletic performance, etc. The treated conditions aren't diseases, but they are unwanted conditions.

Is gender confusion something that should be embraced? If it is treatable, isn't it worth treating when the costs are small rather than after the fact when the costs are astronomical and the psychological damage has already been wrought?


Yes, you are saying that, even if you won't admit to it, because there is no other reason to try to prevent it from happening in the first place. Even then, it's problematic because what you are suggesting is akin to "designer fetuses", and is a medicoethical minefield of problems. In addition, we don't KNOW what levels of hormones do what at what specific moment in pregnancy. It's not as simple as hormone replacement in a menopausal woman is relative to tinkering with fetal growth and development, and it's not something that can be diagnosed UNTIL the fetus is delivered and the child begins to express gender identity around age 3. Even then, drastic measures aren't started until the child is close to adulthood legally and developmentally. We know what we do because of HIGHLY controlled experiments, and because of advances in medical and nuclear imaging techniques which allow us to perform in depth examinations of brain activity.

Because you are uncomfortable with the concept of a person identifying as a separate gender despite having a biologically different set of external genitals does not mean the obvious solution to the matter is to go tinkering with fetal development.

AverageAmericanGuy: I'm suggesting, then, only a shift in the treatment. And rather than ushering the deviation along, I'm suggesting it be stopped in its tracks at the onset of the developmental change. If, as maggie has described above, the problem is a lack or an abundance of the wrong hormone during fetal development, is this not something that can be identified pretty easily as a target for hormone treatment? If the transgendered individuals are that way because of an accident during their time in the womb, why the adamancy against treatment?


Why should the treatment shift? There is nothing wrong affecting others with these people that needs to be prevented before it happens. If you're going to make that argument, it's not hard to then say well, why not other causes of social deviation. Why not changing gay babies to be straight? Why not changing all people to have blue eyes and blonde hair. Why not eliminate babies who have too much melanin? Yes, it's a slippery slope argument, but not fallacious because there is no middle ground here.

In addition, it's not easy. We know what we do of intrauterine factors BECAUSE of highly controlled experiments, as-before mentioned. There is no mass-distributed test for this. It's not a chromosomal abnormality, so a genetic typing would not detect it.

There is no adamacy against treatment for transgendered individuals. The adamacy comes from people who are anti-trans, or who cling to their 2000 year old book as a reason for life, the universe, and everything else.

AverageAmericanGuy: Obviously we are nowhere near being able to provide the treatments I'm suggesting. But technology progresses. Medicine progresses. Is it not worthwhile to pursue solutions to problems that can be solved?


Because what you're suggesting is akin to designing fetuses to make society feel comfortable and conformal. Everyone the same. Everyone the same sexual identity. Everyone the same sexual orientation. As time goes by, everyone the same period.

It's the EXACT same thing speculative fiction and ethical nonfiction has been warning us about for the past 30 years.
 
2013-03-01 02:20:34 AM

Chach: He's not a girl if he has male genitals.

Sorry.  This sort of thing you don't get to pick.  DNA did it for ya.

The school is doing the right thing by this kid.   CPS should take him from his parents before they warp him entirely.


Remember those aformentioned idiots, AverageAmericanGuy, I mentioned?

Here is the example of it.

Sorry, little guy. Chromosomes determine which haploid cell you produce. It does not determine gender, or gender identity. Two separate concepts there from biological sex.

Also, since you didn't RTFA, the child has a passport and State ID issues to him that says he's female. You cannot do that without a court order, and you cannot obtain that court order without MULTIPLE psychiatric professionals, pediatricians, and social workers signing off to the court that she meets the criteria.
 
2013-03-01 02:21:35 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: tinfoil-hat maggie: AverageAmericanGuy: You are a sick person get help.

Do you not like where the research you've quoted leads?

I think you presume too much, and your bias is showing.
Maybe you should have had a teenage lobotomy.

Stop looking up my bias, creep.
No need for the lobotomy. I never did have any teenage depression.

I don't believe you. Make your move

My move? Honey, I'm a lover, not a fighter.


I doubt that Ur so gay, and you don't even like boys
/Well I'm done playing with you ; )
 
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