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(Canoe)   School authorities say that transgendered six-year old is no longer allowed to use the girl's room at the school. Wow, dick move   (cnews.canoe.ca) divider line 577
    More: Stupid, public accommodations, Civil Rights Commission, Human Rights Act, elementary schools, male genitalia  
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7300 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Feb 2013 at 10:01 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-28 05:54:39 PM  
Sorry transbrigade.  A child at six, let alone 18 months is not making this call, garbage parents are.  This woman has multiple other kids with either made up diseases or self causes(traumatic head injury) all collecting social security checks with no job and a husband with 4 kids and no job.  Sorry, this situation is on the parents.
 
2013-02-28 05:55:41 PM  
To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?
 
2013-02-28 05:55:47 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: I agree, It DOES explain a lot. To me, it seems likely that Coy isn't afflicted with anything. It sounds more like the mother is trying "too hard" [I can't quite put a finger what she thinks she's trying to accomplish, so I'll leave that tidbit undefined] to push the kid in the wrong direction. I mean, really, he's only six years old. Potential TG issues or not aside, the child is not at a stage of true self-awareness yet; he's surrounded by sisters and might want, at this time, "to be like them". The parents seem to be in need of counseling (by whom? I don't know). To me it seems like they are know-it-all's, self-proclaimed psychologists. Bottom line, something just ain't right here.


I would expect that the child is getting counseling from a psychologist and would definitely have to before receiving hormone therapy. Also if you're wrong and it's not the parents or mothers doing what then? Would you still demand that the child grow up a boy?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 05:56:48 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: gja: The My Little Pony Killer: gja: Please show ma a study from an accredited, non-bias source that has been accepted as the universally accepted reference for this matter.

Hint: You're still an ignorant bigot.

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/05devel/52_imper.htm

Have a read. Compliments of the old, ignorant bigot.Deliberately stayed away from american sources of AMA leaning authors to fend off 'tilted view' griping.
Many, many citations in this study.

Did you read you're link? Did you read it? Hint it's about 5-alpha-reductase deficiency not really what is being discussed here.


Here is the entire, exhaustive study. You will need to read a bit. I am not going to spoon-feed it to you.
 
2013-02-28 05:58:11 PM  

orbister: Biology is what determines how you FEEL about it.



Still trolling, eh?
 
2013-02-28 05:58:44 PM  

HAMMERTOE: orbister: First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals.

And I'm a bird without wings.


I'm a hornless Unicorn!
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-02-28 06:00:48 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I would expect that the child is getting counseling from a psychologist and would definitely have to before receiving hormone therapy. Also if you're wrong and it's not the parents or mothers doing what then? Would you still demand that the child grow up a boy?


One would hope so. That is absent from the article. What isn't clear is who, if anyone, is the source of influence in all of this.
The mother is 'on-the-hook' regardless for not being a shelter to her child. She should have fought to keep this from the press with every ounce of life in her.
 
2013-02-28 06:01:03 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Kann: tfa says the kid prefers pink... cool nothing wrong with that, he likes girl toys fine... but in no way does he need to be using the girls restroom at age 6 in an elementary school...

Exactly buy the kid the toys he wants, but hold off on making the final call until he makes it through puberty.  Let the kid explore and once the body chemistry has settled down figure it all out.   in the men time just tell him he uses the room based on physical equipment.  For the kid to be so settled down instead of in a more exploratory stage, there has to be massive parental pressure here.


"In the men time"?????

Check your privilege, you hetero-normative, masculinist, neurotypical Cis-man!!!!!
 
2013-02-28 06:02:03 PM  
horsepocket

You are confusing sex and gender.  Sex is whether you are genetically male or female, gender is a social construct about being a man or woman.  That's why the terminology is frustrating.  People use transgender to mean everything, when transsexual (chromosomes are one thing, body is another, or conflicting chromosomes like xxy) is very different than transgender.  Transgender is a much more murky discussion as its not empirical.
 
2013-02-28 06:03:26 PM  
Came here for the amateur psychologists who still confuse sexual behavior and fetishes with psychological gender identification, and can't get over the fact that gender self-identification on a biological basis happens as early as intrauterine development and neural tube growth, and on a psychological basis as early as two years old.

Nice to see that many of you worked hard to earn that clinical degree from DeVry online. Carry on with the hatred and stupidity, people.
 
2013-02-28 06:06:38 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?


Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.
 
2013-02-28 06:10:32 PM  

gja: BarkingUnicorn: Joe Blowme: Theaetetus: quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.

This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.

How ever you want to phrase it, it will still happen.

/real world, how does it work?
//Right or wrong life aint fair or perfect
///bullies usuall have bully parents so let go after them as well.

Better to be beaten up by a bully occasionally than by yourself constantly.

To a point I agree, but please let's remember to frame this in the point of reference of the real world we live in.
People get killed sometimes, for less than the shoes they wear. Caution is needed where lives are concerned.


Among those persecuted for being different, which is more common:  killings or suicides?  IDK, but the question seems relevant when discussing trade-offs.
 
2013-02-28 06:12:57 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: MelGoesOnTour: I agree, It DOES explain a lot. To me, it seems likely that Coy isn't afflicted with anything. It sounds more like the mother is trying "too hard" [I can't quite put a finger what she thinks she's trying to accomplish, so I'll leave that tidbit undefined] to push the kid in the wrong direction. I mean, really, he's only six years old. Potential TG issues or not aside, the child is not at a stage of true self-awareness yet; he's surrounded by sisters and might want, at this time, "to be like them". The parents seem to be in need of counseling (by whom? I don't know). To me it seems like they are know-it-all's, self-proclaimed psychologists. Bottom line, something just ain't right here.

I would expect that the child is getting counseling from a psychologist and would definitely have to before receiving hormone therapy. Also if you're wrong and it's not the parents or mothers doing what then? Would you still demand that the child grow up a boy?


If I'm wrong, which I very well may well turn out to be, then I'll adjust my thinking on this particular situation. Of course, unless this family will be tracked over time as a true case study [which, of course, does NOT mean "reality TV"], we'll likely never know how things turn out. But (to finally answer your question), no, I would not demand that the child grow up in any particular way that might make the child unhappy/uncomfortable.
 
2013-02-28 06:15:26 PM  

BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.


Hard proof that a 18 month old is capable of this?  Oh yeah, there is none.  Read the words of the mother, 4 "special needs kids" all with questionable diagnosis and a dream of working with special needs kids.Come on man.  Cut the Social Security checks and this fixes itself.
 
2013-02-28 06:16:47 PM  

BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.


This link talks about chromosomal disorders. I was asking about brain development OUTSIDE of that realm, and when that occurs in utereo.
 
2013-02-28 06:24:42 PM  

shkkmo: Wow, this thread is full of assholes.


It sure is.  Asshole lunatics who've taken a single pseudo-scientific college gender studies course and decided they know best about everything, and want to force all of society to function just the way a tiny minority want it to, no matter how the majority feels.  And who have nothing but love for a woman who is willing to prostitute her own child to push her idiot causes.

Real serious assholes.
 
2013-02-28 06:26:17 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.

This link talks about chromosomal disorders. I was asking about brain development OUTSIDE of that realm, and when that occurs in utereo.



It's my understanding that researchers recognize that brain development probably plays a role in gender identity but what extent that role is, is still very much debated.   It appears that some scientists (based on my random GIS) still refer to GID as a mental disorder.


Nothing's been proven as of yet.  Though, some theories are more popular than others.


I'm finding this discussion very interesting along with random shots of prejudiced!  and bigotry!, which always helps people want to learn more about a subject they may not have had reason to research previously.

I found your question interesting and wish I had an answer (or more time to look it up) for you.
 
2013-02-28 06:26:43 PM  
Well, with what I've seen in many boys/mens restrooms, I would be tempted to plead female just to use one that didn't have anti-gravity shiat on the ceiling or other inexplicable horrors.
 
2013-02-28 06:29:09 PM  

Theaetetus: atomicmask: the fact is the bathrooms are based on sex. Males have a male room, females a female room.

Out of curiosity, what do you do in your house? Do you segregate the bathrooms there?


In my house, I pee between my mom's legs while she takes a shiat, and then my sister pees in the sink while dad masturbates on the commode.  Saves a lot of time in the morning.

The Aristocrats!    Equality!
 
2013-02-28 06:35:42 PM  

Brostorm: BronyMedic: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

Medscape's eMedicine encyclopedia has a good article on it,

While societal concepts play a role in the development of gender identity in "normal" identification patterns, they serve to further re-enforce the feelings of alienation in a child who has a gender identity disorder.

Hard proof that a 18 month old is capable of this?  Oh yeah, there is none.  Read the words of the mother, 4 "special needs kids" all with questionable diagnosis and a dream of working with special needs kids.Come on man.  Cut the Social Security checks and this fixes itself.


You have hard proof that they don't?
 
2013-02-28 06:37:24 PM  

sudo give me more cowbell: LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.

A good friend is someone who ditches people when they start living in a way that makes them uncomfortable?

I wonder what kind of friends you have, and I feel sorry for you.


I assume that you didn't go back and read what he said, so I'll tell you what a good friend doesn't do, and that is make ignorant bigoted statements about his so-called friends.
 
2013-02-28 06:44:50 PM  

Gwendolyn: Most people who are transgendered state that they knew very early on that they didn't feel right within their body or socially constructed gender. Six is just unusual because the parents aren't forcing their idea of what she should be of her.


THIS
 
2013-02-28 06:47:17 PM  
i704.photobucket.com


this strikes me as a perfect opportunity to teach that kid a life lesson, how you *feel* and what you *want* means jack shiat.
 
2013-02-28 06:51:23 PM  

Brostorm: Hard proof that a 18 month old is capable of this?


I don't think I ever mentioned an 18 month old, did I? FTFA, the child in question is 6 years of age, not 18 months.

At any rate, there are plenty of cases of people who were born with ambiguous genitalia, who had the wrong ones lopped off - even with chromosomal studies, and later ended up developing mentally as the opposite gender they were raised as.

TheDumbBlonde: This link talks about chromosomal disorders. I was asking about brain development OUTSIDE of that realm, and when that occurs in utereo.


 Probably should have linked the next page, then

As research in this field broadens and deepens, gender dysphoria is increasingly recognized as just one of the several atypical patterns of gender development.The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition - Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) andInternational Classification of Diseases 10 (ICD-10)categorization of gender dysphoria as a purely psychiatric disorder is a difficult one because recent evidence has pointed to brain bias as a major determinant of gender identity. If, indeed, patients with gender identity disorders often have a brain bias consistent with their personal gender identity, then a reclassification is necessary. Ever-greater evidence seems to be mounting for this view, particularly in light of the extremely early age at which most cases of gender incongruence present.

IIRC, the DSM-V reclassifies it as a mental disorder in the same light of paraphilias - namely it's a "normal" variation on sexual identity, and it's only a mental disorder if it causes harm to the patient, or causes them to harm others. .
 
2013-02-28 06:58:25 PM  

GanjSmokr: sno man: GanjSmokr: OK, let's. "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

So any boy that has, for whatever reason, become penisless are automatically girls? Because there isn't a lot of room for them to be boys by that definition.

Did they get a vagina when they lost their penis?


By your definition merely the lack of one negates boy so what would you call them?
 
2013-02-28 07:14:47 PM  

LoneWolf343: I assume that you didn't go back and read what he said, so I'll tell you what a good friend doesn't do, and that is make ignorant bigoted statements about his so-called friends.


k, you got me. I didn't.
So now I just went back and read some of your previous posts, and it seems that you are mostly on the right side of this debate...  But still, I really don't understand the post of yours which I originally replied to (though this time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just misinterpreted you.)

LoneWolf343: gja: Also, I have many TG friends and colleagues. A few friends have even taken the step to TS (full SRS)

If you are, you're not a very good friend.


Why exactly is somebody not a good friend if they continue hanging out with somebody after they've had SRS? I'm not necessarily accusing you of anything, I just really don't get what you said here.
 
2013-02-28 07:15:38 PM  
BronyMedic:

IIRC, the DSM-V reclassifies it as a mental disorder in the same light of paraphilias - namely it's a "normal" variation on sexual identity, and it's only a mental disorder if it causes harm to the patient, or causes them to harm others. .

Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.
 
2013-02-28 07:15:48 PM  

sno man: GanjSmokr: sno man: GanjSmokr: OK, let's. "Him/He" = boy = has penis, "Her/She" = girl = has vagina.

So any boy that has, for whatever reason, become penisless are automatically girls? Because there isn't a lot of room for them to be boys by that definition.

Did they get a vagina when they lost their penis?

By your definition merely the lack of one negates boy so what would you call them?


Unlucky.

What would you call that boy who lost his penis?  A girl?

This whole thing has got to be about the silliest "argument" I've seen around here.  It's really not worth anymore of my time arguing that a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl.

I'm done and out of here.  Call them whatever the hell you want.  You win.
 
2013-02-28 07:21:58 PM  

sudo give me more cowbell: LoneWolf343: I assume that you didn't go back and read what he said, so I'll tell you what a good friend doesn't do, and that is make ignorant bigoted statements about his so-called friends.

k, you got me. I didn't.
So now I just went back and read some of your previous posts, and it seems that you are mostly on the right side of this debate...  But still, I really don't understand the post of yours which I originally replied to (though this time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just misinterpreted you.)

Why exactly is somebody not a good friend if they continue hanging out with somebody after they've had SRS? I'm not necessarily accusing you of anything, I just really don't get what you said here.


sigh... god that was a lot of reply-to-reply-to-reply checking, but ok, I finally got to the crux of it.

 

gja: It is NOT a UNIVERSALLY accepted scientifically supported fact that all people form their final gender orientation at such an early age.


, Gia was basically just saying that it's not necessarily the case that Gender is so well formed by the age of 6. That's not enough to accuse her of being a bad friend. Yes, I misunderstood your original comment, but I still think your claim was an overstep.
 
2013-02-28 07:31:07 PM  

ciberido: Marine1: Dude... it's a six-year-old. That could change again after puberty; who knows.

Who knows?  Gosh, that's a puzzler.  Maybe you should search Google or something on the off chance somebody's studied that question already.


So... basically... whether the Patriarchy shoved gender roles on the kids or not, they still recognized them?

/the penis is a weapon
//the penis is a weapon
 
2013-02-28 07:52:43 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: BronyMedic:

IIRC, the DSM-V reclassifies it as a mental disorder in the same light of paraphilias - namely it's a "normal" variation on sexual identity, and it's only a mental disorder if it causes harm to the patient, or causes them to harm others. .

Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.


I think this may be what you're looking for. Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity
 
2013-02-28 07:53:50 PM  

sudo give me more cowbell: So then this is a chick?


And this?

farm2.static.flickr.com

(If you're going to do a GIS on "Buck Angel" at work, make sure that safe search is on. You have been warned.)
 
2013-02-28 07:55:31 PM  
First paragraph from that link.

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) is programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexualism. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.
 
2013-02-28 07:59:42 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?


What sort of a damn-fool question is that? It's like asking "at what point in fetal development has science determined that perfect pitch develops." It's a completely meaningless question; the best we can do is say "Dunno. That's how they pop out."
 
2013-02-28 08:02:54 PM  

The_Sponge: orbister: Biology is what determines how you FEEL about it.


Still trolling, eh?


You've red the stuff about the anatomical difference between male and female brains, have you, and how the brains don;t always match the genitals? Or are you just hoping that real life will go away and leave your preconceptions (ha-ha) alone?
 
2013-02-28 08:06:45 PM  

Canned Tamales: It sure is.  Asshole lunatics who've taken a single pseudo-scientific college gender studies course read World Net Daily and decided they know best about everything, and want to force all of society to function just the way a tiny minority want it to, no matter how the majority feels and what people with elitist edmification have discovered in their so-called universities.


Dailymailed that for you.
 
2013-02-28 08:08:41 PM  

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

What sort of a damn-fool question is that? It's like asking "at what point in fetal development has science determined that perfect pitch develops." It's a completely meaningless question; the best we can do is say "Dunno. That's how they pop out."


You're the one spouting all-knowing on gender "Identity". If it happens during brain development completely aside of physical development, educate me.
 
2013-02-28 08:10:23 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.


That bears no relation whatsoever to what Bronymedic posted. You may care to reconsider the phrase "brain bias" in his post.
 
2013-02-28 08:10:52 PM  
Ah, the intolerant tolerant. Those, who with open arms accept everything and everybody, love everything. They celebrate everyone's life choices regardless of the inevitable outcome based on the reality we live in. However, if you disagree with the wonderfully enlightened indivuidal, then you are an ignorant bigot, and should "educate yourself" even if you may actually have more education than them. Those who are loving, sensitive, and caring of everyone, except those that disagree with them.They are the real problem with society.It's almost like a...crusade, of sorts.Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.
 
2013-02-28 08:12:53 PM  

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: To anyone: If gender is determined not by anatomy or societal concept, but rather by "brain development" in-utero, at what point in fetal development has science determined this occurs?

What sort of a damn-fool question is that? It's like asking "at what point in fetal development has science determined that perfect pitch develops." It's a completely meaningless question; the best we can do is say "Dunno. That's how they pop out."


It was a good question and the answer seems to be found here (posted above)

I'd rather not have to copy-pasta paragraphs here from there.
 
2013-02-28 08:13:49 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: You're the one spouting all-knowing on gender "Identity". If it happens during brain development completely aside of physical development, educate me.


Brain development IS physical development. Oh, and and babies develop in "utero"; "utereo" is the CD player in an Australian pick-up truck.
 
2013-02-28 08:14:25 PM  

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: Edited for reading. So, there is no medical evidence that brain chemistry, outside of a definable chromosomal disorder, that gender is defined in utereo nor at what point. Alrighty.

That bears no relation whatsoever to what Bronymedic posted. You may care to reconsider the phrase "brain bias" in his post.


Dude, you just posted that they is way they "pop out". And you used the term "they", I did not. As to considering the phrase "brain bias": I consider it everytime I see "brony" in a sentence.
 
2013-02-28 08:15:41 PM  

Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.


Teach the controversy!
 
2013-02-28 08:17:31 PM  
Jeez!  It's been long time since I've seen so many TG trolls [pro AND con]!

Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?
 
2013-02-28 08:17:45 PM  

orbister: TheDumbBlonde: You're the one spouting all-knowing on gender "Identity". If it happens during brain development completely aside of physical development, educate me.

Brain development IS physical development. Oh, and and babies develop in "utero"; "utereo" is the CD player in an Australian pick-up truck.


Status Update: Losing ground -Level 2 revert to typo observation. Make pop-culture reference.
 
2013-02-28 08:18:22 PM  

orbister: Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.

Teach the controversy!


Way to take the bait!   too easy.
 
2013-02-28 08:18:52 PM  

orbister: Nubenstein: Trying to force people to change their minds and believe the same you do is rather bigoted, and ignorant.

Teach the controversy!


Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.
 
2013-02-28 08:18:52 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: Jeez!  It's been long time since I've seen so many TG trolls [pro AND con]!

Bottom line...what's the point going back and forth, ad nauseum (sp?), other than for your own jollies?


I'm bored to tears.
 
2013-02-28 08:24:55 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Nice stealthy troll dude, at least that's how it appears.


Not at all. I was responding to the idea, popular on the right, that ill-informed bigotry and credulous stupidity have every right to be taken as seriously as evidence-based points of view. "Stop oppressing us with your facts" they wail.
 
2013-02-28 08:26:25 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: Status Update: Losing ground


In what sense do you believe that the the structure of the brain - the physical structure of the brain - is not an aspect of physical development?
 
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