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(Canoe)   School authorities say that transgendered six-year old is no longer allowed to use the girl's room at the school. Wow, dick move   (cnews.canoe.ca) divider line 577
    More: Stupid, public accommodations, Civil Rights Commission, Human Rights Act, elementary schools, male genitalia  
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7300 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Feb 2013 at 10:01 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-28 10:53:52 AM  

ha-ha-guy: Supposedly even post transition they're still at a much higher risk rate for depression. The debate seems to focus on how much of that is from internal issues the transition didn't help with versus society being dicks to them.


True, but I'd have no problem betting my life savings that item #2 plays a huge role.

ha-ha-guy: That said though the consensus seems to be that within a few decades there will be a medical option for catching gender issues early and just rewiring the brain to match the physical parts and parents may have to make that call early.

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
Is not too keen on your Psychotactic treatments.

Seriously though, being transgender is definitely no fun, but rewiring your brain to remove it is essentially wiping your personhood out of existence. Even if the medical technology were available (and I highly doubt that it will be anytime soon.) I don't think I could ever feel justified in actively reprogramming my child's mind.
 
2013-02-28 10:54:16 AM  

Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.



ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.
 
2013-02-28 10:55:25 AM  

ginandbacon: No, I mean her. SHE identifies as female.


Well his parents certainly choose to identify him that way. All the kid knows is that whatever he's doing, its making mom and dad happy. He probably loves the hell out of that.

/ too bad mom and dad are bat-shiate crazy.

// kids at that age generally just want to be happy and to be encouraged by their parents. They're also extremely malleable.
 
2013-02-28 10:56:03 AM  

shkkmo


Wow, this thread is full of assholes.



images3.wikia.nocookie.net

pic is borrowed
 
2013-02-28 10:56:53 AM  

CarloSkippy: loaba: CarloSkippy: I have no clue how any of my sisters pee, and I'm very thankful for that.

/ I assume they pee sitting down, but now I'm dwelling on the topic. Damn you, CarloSkippy, damn you to hell.

I assume all of your sisters pee.


Doh! I read that as "how many of my sisters pee."  <sigh>
 
2013-02-28 10:57:09 AM  

Stinkyy: Another poster: "Kid wants to wear a dress? Why should the school stand in her way?  It's because we have norms, you stupid G.D.'d retard.  You don't get to pick and choose what laws we have here, do you?


I don't get to choose the laws there, but I do get to choose the laws here. Democracy, don't you just love it?

Whether a child wants to wear a dress or trousers, or identify as a boy or a girl is of no interest to me, and should be of no interest to the school. Schools are there to educate, not to enforce neanderthal social norms.
 
2013-02-28 10:57:10 AM  

Theaetetus: orbister: wore your hair cut short and in bunches more-or-less equally?

[blogs-images.forbes.com image 210x300] 
Proud.


Are you trying to say that's really a DUDE!?!?!  MIND = BLOWN!!!
 
2013-02-28 10:57:24 AM  

Big_Fat_Liar: A urinal is more unsanitary than something people shiat and vomit in? Don't think so. It's pee - you can use it to clean wounds and even drink it in a life or death situation. Urinals are also easier to clean thoroughly in comparison to toilets. I worked my way through school and am quite familiar with cleaning urinals.


I was referring more to the splash zone around them. Because ew.

As for what is wrong with stalls...nothing in particular except they take a LOT more room than urinals. A pretty common men's room arrangement might be two urinals and one stall. In a busy environment, three stalls do not adequately replace one stall and two urinals. They also require a room that is bigger than the one that exists currently. Imagine the cost to change all the bathrooms in a school to accommodate a no-urinals desire for one kid.  Big bucks, and for no return.

On the contrary, they could knock out the wall between the segregated restrooms and replace half the sinks with more stalls. You could actually end up with  more spaces.

This girl is perfectly capable of using her penis to pee in a urinal. Girls and boys are perfectly capable of learning in the same classroom as each other. A person of one religion or mentality or another may come along and demand change, but society doesn't have to pay to accommodate every person's desires. Maybe I don't like to use multi-user restrooms at all. I was born that way and you can't prove I wasn't, even though I can't prove anything genetically either, but I DEMAND you install a number of private use bathrooms to accommodate my needs.

As noted above, this accommodation is simple and efficient. Plus, it's not even the accommodation the people in the article are seeking, but my suggestion for the future. Their accommodation is simply that she gets to use the girl's room with their private stalls. No cost to anyone.
 
2013-02-28 10:57:44 AM  

loaba: They're also extremely malleable.


That's why I'd like to know a LOT more about the parents.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:04 AM  

The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.


blogs.scientificamerican.com
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:10 AM  

sudo give me more cowbell: I don't think I could ever feel justified in actively reprogramming my child's mind.


What if he was a serial killer and tortured small animals but some pill could level out the aggression.  Which is not to say that transgenderism is comparable to such, but we do have set precedents for going in and rewiring.  Although those are done normally due to the fact the person is a threat to society, whereas a transgender is really only a threat to themselves (depression leading to self harm).  Yet I'd imagine a lot of parents would lobby to have access to the rewiring option and use it.

I have to admit it was something like "We can dump 5 gallons of stuff into your son and there is a 90% chance he goes through life happy as a man" vs "Well it will be a five year process, possibly a couple of surgeries, and a 20% chance of severe depression and social stigmatization afterwards", that's a tough choice to ponder.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:24 AM  

shkkmo: Wow, this thread is full of assholes.


No dicks obviously though
 
2013-02-28 10:59:31 AM  
"I used to like ponies but my daddy beat that out of me and I turned out fine" says way more about the armchair psychologist and how many beers he's had by this hour than the gender identity of a child he's never met and whether or not we'll all fit in that handbasket.

Oh but I'm sure Fark Commenter Man is just preparing to go out and rescue all those kittens from trees and then balance the budget.
 
2013-02-28 10:59:57 AM  

orbister: starsrift: Dunno about the rest of you farkers, but I sure as hell didn't have a gender identity at that point in my life, one way or the other.

Really? You wore dresses and trousers more-or-less equally, played with dolls and footballs more or less equally, wore your hair cut short and in bunches more-or-less equally?


No to the first one, but otherwise, yes.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:02 AM  

ck1938: Nurglitch: What if, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe the kid is transgendered, allowing her to sit down to pee in the privacy of the stalls in the girls washroom isn't a bad thing, and maybe what's called for is a little help and understanding for those of us that aren't standard model.

Enabling deranged parents abuse of their children isn't helping.


Sorry, I missed the part in the article where the parents had the child taken away because they were abusing her.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:07 AM  

orbister: Stinkyy: Another poster: "Kid wants to wear a dress? Why should the school stand in her way?  It's because we have norms, you stupid G.D.'d retard.  You don't get to pick and choose what laws we have here, do you?

I don't get to choose the laws there, but I do get to choose the laws here. Democracy, don't you just love it?

Whether a child wants to wear a dress or trousers, or identify as a boy or a girl is of no interest to me, and should be of no interest to the school. Schools are there to educate, not to enforce neanderthal social norms.


Reality is very different, Son.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:30 AM  

Brubold: Englebert Slaptyback: The first-grader, Coy Mathis, was born male but identifies as female


And here I was thinking that surgery was required for someone to be transgender.

This.

Has the kid got a pecker? Then the kid uses the boy's room. End of story.


Its not like we can put tits on a six year old

.....I mean technically medical science can but there's that nagging thing called ethics
 
2013-02-28 11:01:42 AM  

Gyrfalcon: So when this "girl" hits puberty and decides he's a guy after all, what's mom going to do then?


Well clearly at that time Coy will be a lesbian...with a penis. No need for rubber strap-ons or dildos. It's the new eco-sensitive solution to lesbian sex. Go green.
 
2013-02-28 11:02:31 AM  
Are we not going to talk about the name "Coy" in the first place?
Was this covered in another thread?  Does that pass for normal elsewhere?
Or is it just not-farked-up-enough to register?
 
2013-02-28 11:03:07 AM  

Theaetetus: The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.

[blogs.scientificamerican.com image 400x300]
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.



Stalls are not rooms, pal.
 
2013-02-28 11:04:24 AM  

TheDumbBlonde: Reality is was very different, Son.


Fixed that for you, Grandma.
 
2013-02-28 11:05:28 AM  

ringersol: Are we not going to talk about the name "Coy" in the first place?
Was this covered in another thread?  Does that pass for normal elsewhere?
Or is it just not-farked-up-enough to register?


When's she [he] is older and still pre-op, she can cup her package and blush. That'll be coy, alright...
 
2013-02-28 11:05:52 AM  

The_Sponge: Theaetetus: The_Sponge: Theaetetus: FTFY, since, as you'll note, he agreed that there doesn't need to be a specific room for men and a different room for women, but just a room with a door.


ORLY?  Because there needs to be separate bathrooms if they are used by more than one person at time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.

[blogs.scientificamerican.com image 400x300]
Hey, look! Separate little rooms that can be used by more than one person at a time.....you know.....LIKE THEY HAVE AT SCHOOLS.


Stalls are not rooms, pal.


If the stall partitions extend to the floor and ceiling, as they do in some public restrooms, then is it not a room by definition?
 
2013-02-28 11:09:08 AM  
I find this whole story to be strange. At what point did the little boy decide to dress and act like a little girl? Was this a choice the boy made or his parents made? Seems like something one would decide later in life after said person had finished developing (physically and mentally).
 
2013-02-28 11:09:43 AM  

ha-ha-guy: sudo give me more cowbell: I don't think I could ever feel justified in actively reprogramming my child's mind.

What if he was a serial killer and tortured small animals but some pill could level out the aggression.  Which is not to say that transgenderism is comparable to such, but we do have set precedents for going in and rewiring.  Although those are done normally due to the fact the person is a threat to society, whereas a transgender is really only a threat to themselves (depression leading to self harm).  Yet I'd imagine a lot of parents would lobby to have access to the rewiring option and use it.

I have to admit it was something like "We can dump 5 gallons of stuff into your son and there is a 90% chance he goes through life happy as a man" vs "Well it will be a five year process, possibly a couple of surgeries, and a 20% chance of severe depression and social stigmatization afterwards", that's a tough choice to ponder.


Yeah, ok. I overstated when I said I'd never feel justified in reprogramming my child's mind. If they were a serial killer or something like that, then sure, of course I would try to remove those kinds of impulses.

But I'm still convinced that the overwhelming majority of the depression/self-harm that is seen in transgendered people is the result of societal dickishness. I also think that we really ought to take a look at some history on a similar theme: Not so long ago homosexuality was seen as a deviant mental illness that needed to be treated and purged chemicall (as a "compassionate measure" of course) because such people couldn't possibly live happy lives. Now we can clearly see that there are lots of very happy gay people, and that the problem was ours, not theirs.

Of course, I'm not saying transgenderism and homosexuality are interchangeable concepts -they're not, and they get mixed up all too often- but the historical lesson still seems apt.
 
2013-02-28 11:10:02 AM  
Just change the signs from "little boys" and "little girls" to "little penises" and "little vaginas".  Problem solved.
 
2013-02-28 11:12:12 AM  
News flash:  The part we made up is whether "boys" or "girls" wear dresses or have their hair cut in a specific way.  Your genetics are your genetics, the rest is trained.  You aren't a "girl" just for liking "girly" things.  You're a boy who prefers girly things, probably because of your overbearing and ridiculous mother.  We didn't make up your penis, we made up the stupid idea that vaginas are associated with fashion:
si.wsj.net

musicals:
images.zap2it.com

dolls:

pictures.picpedia.com

and cooking:

static.guim.co.uk

long hair

cdn.zmemusic.com

and elaborate dresses and hats

images.theage.com.au
 
2013-02-28 11:14:29 AM  
I have a nephew that thought he was a lion at that age and would roar at people. Did we send him to the Serengeti to live with the other beasts? of course not. We let it work itself and he grew into the perfect little self-centered asshole teen that he is today.
 
2013-02-28 11:15:27 AM  
Six?  yea he's going to think that he's whatever gender his parents tell him he is.  That family is completely farking screwed.  Is this the family?
www.the-filmreel.com
That kid is sooooooo farking screwed and it has nothing to do with gender identity.  Judging by this thread we should be prescribing sex changes for toddlers.
 
2013-02-28 11:15:36 AM  
:::Sigh::: OK, people. Due to the overwhelmingmajority of morons in our society, today, bathrooms will no longer be labled as men's / women's or boys / girls. From now on they will be labled as Penises / Vaginas. Hermaphrodites will have their choice to use either. So, whether it's the genitalia you were born with, or  aquired through surgery, what's between your legs will decide which restroom you use. That is all. Carry on.
 
2013-02-28 11:18:09 AM  
Got a dick? stand up at the urinal.
Not got a dick? sit down on the pan.

When you are 18 you can choose what to wear and what to call yourself just like everyone else. It`s something to look forward to.

It`s that simple.

You can now carry on with the mouth frothing.
 
2013-02-28 11:18:12 AM  

Theaetetus: As for what is wrong with stalls...nothing in particular except they take a LOT more room than urinals. A pretty common men's room arrangement might be two urinals and one stall. In a busy environment, three stalls do not adequately replace one stall and two urinals. They also require a room that is bigger than the one that exists currently. Imagine the cost to change all the bathrooms in a school to accommodate a no-urinals desire for one kid. Big bucks, and for no return.

On the contrary, they could knock out the wall between the segregated restrooms and replace half the sinks with more stalls. You could actually end up with more spaces.


Hahahahah, that will never happen....because it makes way too much sense...
 
2013-02-28 11:18:53 AM  

Marine1: Dude... it's a six-year-old. That could change again after puberty; who knows.


Who knows?  Gosh, that's a puzzler.  Maybe you should search Google or something on the off chance somebody's studied that question already.
 
2013-02-28 11:18:54 AM  

JohnnyC: I find this whole story to be strange. At what point did the little boy decide to dress and act like a little girl? Was this a choice the boy made or his parents made? Seems like something one would decide later in life after said person had finished developing (physically and mentally).


This isn't a little boy. She is a little girl who happened to be born into a body with the wrong appendages. Most children have a very firm gender identity by about 2 or 3 years old (which is coincidentally when society starts applying gender norms on children.) If you do a bit of research, you will see that this situation is not unusual for transgender people. They tend to know and be able to express their gender at a very young age. It takes very loving and accepting parents to nurture them in their journey given how horrifically our culture handles trans issues. Just look at this thread.
 
2013-02-28 11:19:05 AM  
www.whiteninjacomics.com

As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied. Not because he's transgender, specifically, but just because there's an obvious external difference. That's what kids do - in large part due to kids being the literal definition of immature. Likewise, I find it hard to believe that a 6 year old could have a fully-formed gender identity - of EITHER gender.

When I read the parent's claims, "she has told the world what would be obvious to anyone who spends a minute with her that she is a little girl," it set off huge warning flags. Wearing a dress, liking dolls, or pink barbie dream houses (for example) do not make you 'female'. These are culture-specific external customs that do not in any real way define gender - they are learned classifications. In fact, if you were to take the unofficial transgender credo to heart, it's what's inside the head that matters, and that's not something that can be easily or accurately expressed naturally - it'd certainly take more than a minute to figure out what's really going on in someone's head.

On the other hand, an individual could exuberantly and artificially act it out. They could deliberately use all the learned cultural trends that indicate 'female', and be overly blatant in their display. The issue with this though is that it IS just an act. I mean, I always wanted to be a dinosaur when I was little, I just happened to be born in a human body. Anyone who spent a minute with me would have thought not that I WAS a dinosaur, but rather that I wanted people to think I was. Whether or not I really thought I was one, whether my brain ~really~ worked that way, and whether I was resolute in my feelings was not something that could be expressed easily through this acting out. ... and the next week I wanted to be a jet fighter pilot anyway.

Kids are really good at playing pretend, without necessarily understanding all the personal and social ramifications of what they're pretending to be.

So;
1 - The kid is too immature to have made such an expert evaluation of his/her sense of self which such significant life-affecting ramifications.
2 - I think this is some sort of acting, even if it coincidentally does turn out to match his/her gender identity later in life.
3 - As long as we live in a society that sees the physical differences between men and women as sexual and/or vulgar - or important outside of the shape of clothes and such - then there will be a need demanded by society to segregate based on actual, physical appearance. I don't see this changing anytime soon.

second to last;
Check out this video of iO Tllet Wright explaining in part her transition from female to male back to female, along with gay, bi, and eventually arriving at 'I don't know, it doesn't matter, and binary choices are obviously wrong.' It might make you question whether or not single-gender classifications are even a valid way to identify someone.

... and last: Is it just me, or do we put WAAAAY too much focus on gender issues? To much of our concept of self wrapped up in it? In such a brittle shell that the beliefs of strangers affect our personal values? Is it just a sex-as-intercourse bias that wraps around all this? Aren't they just stupid and arbitrary divisions as unrepresentative of the person as the color of their skin when it comes to sense of self worth?

/ no homo
 
2013-02-28 11:19:05 AM  

untaken_name: Wow, that kid's parents must be MESSED up.

Yes.  I am sure they think they are "protecting" their precious little snowflakes ego all while setting him up for a lifetime of difficulty.

 
2013-02-28 11:21:26 AM  
As for the Mom making the kid a girl, why this one and not her other boy?

I have kids. When my eldest boy was 3 or so, he had a big sister and a little sister. He liked to wear dresses. He outgrew that by 4 or 5. A 6 yr old knows if they feel like a boy or a girl. 
This is gender we're talking about. Not sexuality. Totally different things.

My younger daughter often says that she's a terrible girl. She hates dresses, make up, dolls, anything traditionally girly. She has still always known she was a girl.
 
2013-02-28 11:21:32 AM  

Private_Citizen: The boy is too young to decide his bedtime, much less his sexuality.

I support the school, there is no way the little boy gets to use the little girls room - regardless of what he thinks his reasons are.


The big city closest to my suburb just passed the 'bathroom bill'.  It took exactly two days for a grown male to enter the female shower room at a local fitness club where several women were showering.  They complained, the cops showed up, apparantly they told the guy to leave the premises but could not arrest him or cite him for anything.  I'm sure the A-hol3 that walked into the shower room was trying to make a point and not just getting his jollies.

I don't think we will be going to the city as much as we used to.  Maybe I'm just too old, I'm not OK with my wife and daughter using a bathroom that a unknown male can just walk into anytime they feel like it.
 
2013-02-28 11:24:01 AM  
to those saying sex isnt gender: the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ. sorry but it is a fact.
 
2013-02-28 11:24:09 AM  
 
2013-02-28 11:24:31 AM  

abfalter: Yes.  I am sure they think they are "protecting" their precious little snowflakes ego all while setting him up for a lifetime of difficulty.


Do you yearn for a return of the days when parents would whip the gay out of their kids? With the buckle end.
 
2013-02-28 11:25:58 AM  

Theaetetus: I was referring more to the splash zone around them. Because ew.


There is a wonderful new product called BLEACH. You might want to introduce it to the establishments you frequent...
 
2013-02-28 11:26:51 AM  

orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?


So she's a boy.  Boy's restroom it is.
 
2013-02-28 11:28:35 AM  
The schools have designated a separate bathroom the kid can use that wouldn't carry the risk of making anyone uncomfortable and that's not good enough for helicopter mom?  You must be kidding.

We had a guy where I worked who began gender reassessment.  Once he began the hormone treatments and developed female characteristics (breasts), the issue of "which bathroom and locker room should this person use?" became one we had to address.  Some guys were a little uncomfortable with someone who now identified as female being in the male bathroom and locker room.  Some women were uncomfortable with this person (who had not completed the surgeries) being in the women's bathroom and locker room.  So rather than force the issue either way, the organization spent a few dollars and had a single-user bathroom built that this employee could use.  Solved the problem and later when she completed the surgeries, no one had issues with her using the "regular" women's bathrooms.

I don't understand how the school providing access to a private bathroom for this kid isn't more than enough.
 
2013-02-28 11:28:56 AM  
With a child so young, I think the parents tread a fine line between "understanding" and "overindulgent".
 
2013-02-28 11:30:07 AM  

untaken_name: Wow, that kid's parents must be MESSED up.


THIS x infinity. The unisex bathroom was not good enough because the parents are using their kid for attention whoring purposes and to cash in.... pathetic. These parents are the reason i support birth control, too bad not enough morons are taking it.
 
2013-02-28 11:30:09 AM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: to those saying sex isnt gender: the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ.


I'll try using this statement when I ask Mrs. Henry for a beej tonight.
`Seriously, the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ. Let me pork your brain through your mouth.'
 
2013-02-28 11:30:19 AM  

Mr Guy: News flash:  The part we made up is whether "boys" or "girls" wear dresses or have their hair cut in a specific way.  Your genetics are your genetics, the rest is trained.  You aren't a "girl" just for liking "girly" things.  You're a boy who prefers girly things, probably because of your overbearing and ridiculous mother.  We didn't make up your penis, we made up the stupid idea that vaginas are associated with fashion:


I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. We're still a few generations from working out this whole gender roles thing. The fields of cooking and combat have seen progress though.
 
2013-02-28 11:32:09 AM  

quietwalker: As the comic notes, this kid is going to get bullied.


This may be a suggestion completely out of left field, but how about we try stopping the bully, rather than forcing the victim to conform?

Consider, rather than using the passive voice "the kid is going to get bullied," we could use the active voice "the bully will harass the kid," which focuses on the real problem - the actor.
 
2013-02-28 11:33:23 AM  

StrangeQ: orbister: FTFA: It said the district's decision "took into account not only Coy but other students in the building, their parents, and the future impact a boy

someone with male genitals using a girls' bathroom would have as Coy grew older."

Two issues here. First of all, she's a girl with male genitals, not a boy with male genitals. Secondly, who the hell is going to see them in the girls toilet? Do they check flaps before landing?

So she's a boy.  Boy's restroom it is.


Urinals are for people with dicks. Whatever they call themselves, if you have a dick you stand at the urinal. A 6 year old won`t find it that strange to stand with other people with the same genitals pissing. As they get older the other girls would show a lot of interest in their dick...

If you have a dick then the girls toilets are not the best place for you. Part of the screening for children is that they should not see genitals different from their own.

It`s really that simple. Get over it.
 
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