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(Minnesota Public Radio)   What do autism, ADHD, Schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder and major depressive disorder have in common? No, not the makings of a memorable party. They share genetic links   (minnesota.publicradio.org) divider line 47
    More: Interesting, ADHD, autism, schizophrenias  
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1662 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Feb 2013 at 10:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-28 10:01:32 AM
Sounds like a list of my ex-girlfriends.
 
2013-02-28 10:13:41 AM
Sounds like my drama club during high school
 
2013-02-28 10:16:04 AM
A TFD welcome thread?
 
2013-02-28 10:19:20 AM
Up next: Mind and Body - is there really a distinction?
 
2013-02-28 10:22:46 AM
My wife's manic phase is extreme, sudden anger.  Beats the shiat out of a pillow every time.
 
2013-02-28 10:25:05 AM
They are all overdiagnosed so drug companies can make money?
 
2013-02-28 10:29:23 AM
Subby, what does all these things have to do with each other? Well, for one, you did not decline the verb correctly ^^

Vercengetorix: My wife's manic phase is extreme, sudden anger.  Beats the shiat out of a pillow every time.


That's interesting, I didn't know bipolar could express that way. So instead of sad/happy manias, she has anger manias? How is that different from, say, borderline rage outbursts or ADHD impulsive outbursts?

Btw I'm not at all saying "Pssh she doesn't have bipolar!". I'm genuinely curious to just learn more about it in contrast to the more "standard" disorders that tend to involve some anger.
 
2013-02-28 10:33:46 AM

torusXL: "standard"


Maybe "stereotypical" would be a more appropriate word here. Because these kinds of judgments about someones inner life don't deserve to be classified as "abnormally abnormal", if that makes sense. Rather, people who are making the judgment of another should be ashamed at perpetuating stereotypes concerning something that they can't possibly experience (namely, someone else's experiences).
 
2013-02-28 10:34:45 AM
They all should be treated with heroic levels of THC?

/...please?
 
Zel
2013-02-28 10:37:12 AM
The last time I saw a study about genetic links between autism and schizophrenia... it was that they both had an increased rate of sporadic random segmental mutation (CNV). Nothing actually in common, other than some poorly-understood duplications or deletions of some hundred distinct genes. Turns out throwing off the biochemistry of the most complex system ever 'designed' is easy to do in many ways. So the brain's blueprint is fragile, but we're not a whole lot closer to understanding how it works.
I'm not actually convinced autism and schizophrenia are all that tightly defined in a biochemical sense. There are no drugs to treat a miswiring. They're not broken, they just think differently.
 
2013-02-28 10:49:11 AM
Given that I, my brother, my mother, my cousins on my mother's side, my mother's sisters, my mother's brother *ALL* have ADD, (And we're pretty sure her dad does, but he's never been tested), this does not really surprise me. At all.

And in at least my brother and I's case, the test was a battery of psych tests, followed by a multi-week, double-blind trial where we'd take pills from bottles labeled A-Z, and then our parents, teachers, and us ourselves would rate how we did, and how we felt mentally, that day. Some bottles contained placebos, and some varying doses of ritalin.

/The diagnosis of my mother came afterwards, when she was learning about what I'd been diagnosed with. She was reading some of the books on the subject and went "Waiiiiitttt a minute..."
 
2013-02-28 10:53:33 AM

torusXL: Btw I'm not at all saying "Pssh she doesn't have bipolar!". I'm genuinely curious to just learn more about it in contrast to the more "standard" disorders that tend to involve some anger.


many of those who suffer with bi-polar disorder can exhibit rage in both their mania and depressive phases, the over abundance or lack there of regarding their emotional state can cause them to outburst at people around them, or act violently towards objects and people.

I live with one, its interesting when meds don't work.

And by interesting I mean tape the windows its a farking hurricane.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:31 AM

Zel: The last time I saw a study about genetic links between autism and schizophrenia... it was that they both had an increased rate of sporadic random segmental mutation (CNV). Nothing actually in common, other than some poorly-understood duplications or deletions of some hundred distinct genes. Turns out throwing off the biochemistry of the most complex system ever 'designed' is easy to do in many ways. So the brain's blueprint is fragile, but we're not a whole lot closer to understanding how it works.
I'm not actually convinced autism and schizophrenia are all that tightly defined in a biochemical sense. There are no drugs to treat a miswiring. They're not broken, they just think differently.


Thanks, Mr. Expert! You surely have helped those suffering from the effects of disorders by simply stating that you're vaguely not convinced. Wow why didn't anyone ever think of that??? Here we are spending millions on research.

But seriously...it is possible that autism itself isn't a disease and just represents some new form of neurodiversity. However, in the context of our society, it can be debilitating. We can't know what we don't know about autism until we scrutinize it and...learn what we don't know.

Schizophrenia is very most likely a disease. It's just very complex, and I think part of that complexity is being uncovered with the "glutamate hypothesis". Basically, recent evidence suggests that a root cause of schizophrenia might involve some malfunction or collapse of the NMDA system which then causes other systems to malfunction, such as executive control and dopamine regulation. The reason the disease is confusing is because the NMDA system is a critical link to these feedback systems which underly fundamental features of the human mind, such as consciousness, memory recall, and just about everything. For example, the NMDA antagonist PCP is known to induce schizophrenic like symptoms in mice (a drug antagonists basically means "turns off / turns down").

Considering how this article suggests common links between schizophrenia and the others is very interesting with the fact that NMDA antagonists like ketamine are known to relieve depression immediately, even on cases that were resistant to every other antidepressant tried (as an aside, this is one reason why the War On Drugs is inhumane and absolutely idiotic). Of course, this wouldn't necessarily mean that schizophrenia and major depression are both exactly caused by glutamate abnormalities, but rather that there may be some complex, cyclical feedback effects that contribute to causing the symptoms of seemingly unrelated mental disorders.

That may sound like a clusterfark of a confusing explanation, but that's because language just doesn't do the human brain justice. And neither do your arbitrary opinions based on nothing do the human brain and sufferers of broken human brains justice.
 
2013-02-28 11:00:35 AM
Interesting, indeed, submitter. Good headline, too.
 
2013-02-28 11:16:28 AM

Zel: The last time I saw a study about genetic links between autism and schizophrenia... it was that they both had an increased rate of sporadic random segmental mutation (CNV). Nothing actually in common, other than some poorly-understood duplications or deletions of some hundred distinct genes. Turns out throwing off the biochemistry of the most complex system ever 'designed' is easy to do in many ways. So the brain's blueprint is fragile, but we're not a whole lot closer to understanding how it works.
I'm not actually convinced autism and schizophrenia are all that tightly defined in a biochemical sense. There are no drugs to treat a miswiring. They're not broken, they just think differently.


There have been quite a few from what I recall. Some showing linkage of the same regions of various chromosomes and even a few shared genes with tendencies to show mutations in both cases. There was even an epigenetic study showing some links between whether the mutated allele was inherited paternally or maternally having an impact.

Besides, we are now starting to get beyond just doing GWAS with SNP arrays and into massive genomics studies on these things. You can pull out a hell of a lot more relevant data that way.

torusXL: That may sound like a clusterfark of a confusing explanation, but that's because language just doesn't do the human brain justice. And neither do your arbitrary opinions based on nothing do the human brain and sufferers of broken human brains justice.


Given what we do already know about genetic risks underlying schizophrenia and autism it is arbitrary to consider one neurodiversity and the other a disease. Hell it is an arbitrary distinction in the first place based purely on how debilitating something is within the context of every day life.
 
2013-02-28 11:24:51 AM

entropic_existence: Given what we do already know about genetic risks underlying schizophrenia and autism it is arbitrary to consider one neurodiversity and the other a disease. Hell it is an arbitrary distinction in the first place based purely on how debilitating something is within the context of every day life.


Hey, I was just trying not to hit a tripwire of one of the Jenny McCarthy types.
 
Zel
2013-02-28 11:38:39 AM

torusXL: Zel: The last time I saw a study about genetic links between autism and schizophrenia... it was that they both had an increased rate of sporadic random segmental mutation (CNV). Nothing actually in common, other than some poorly-understood duplications or deletions of some hundred distinct genes. Turns out throwing off the biochemistry of the most complex system ever 'designed' is easy to do in many ways. So the brain's blueprint is fragile, but we're not a whole lot closer to understanding how it works.
I'm not actually convinced autism and schizophrenia are all that tightly defined in a biochemical sense. There are no drugs to treat a miswiring. They're not broken, they just think differently.

Thanks, Mr. Expert! You surely have helped those suffering from the effects of disorders by simply stating that you're vaguely not convinced. Wow why didn't anyone ever think of that??? Here we are spending millions on research.

But seriously...it is possible that autism itself isn't a disease and just represents some new form of neurodiversity. However, in the context of our society, it can be debilitating. We can't know what we don't know about autism until we scrutinize it and...learn what we don't know.

Schizophrenia is very most likely a disease. It's just very complex, and I think part of that complexity is being uncovered with the "glutamate hypothesis". Basically, recent evidence suggests that a root cause of schizophrenia might involve some malfunction or collapse of the NMDA system which then causes other systems to malfunction, such as executive control and dopamine regulation. The reason the disease is confusing is because the NMDA system is a critical link to these feedback systems which underly fundamental features of the human mind, such as consciousness, memory recall, and just about everything. For example, the NMDA antagonist PCP is known to induce schizophrenic like symptoms in mice (a drug antagonists basically means "turns off / turns down").

Considering how this article suggests common links between schizophrenia and the others is very interesting with the fact that NMDA antagonists like ketamine are known to relieve depression immediately, even on cases that were resistant to every other antidepressant tried (as an aside, this is one reason why the War On Drugs is inhumane and absolutely idiotic). Of course, this wouldn't necessarily mean that schizophrenia and major depression are both exactly caused by glutamate abnormalities, but rather that there may be some complex, cyclical feedback effects that contribute to causing the symptoms of seemingly unrelated mental disorders.

That may sound like a clusterfark of a confusing explanation, but that's because language just doesn't do the human brain justice. And neither do your arbitrary opinions based on nothing do the human brain and sufferers of broken human brains justice.


Calm down there persecution complex... we said the same thing. The article even quotes the study authors disclaiming the same misunderstandings we both mentioned. Its just a way to convey the topic to laypersons.
Apologies for not mentioning my credentials.
 
2013-02-28 11:45:38 AM

Zel: Calm down there persecution complex... we said the same thing. The article even quotes the study authors disclaiming the same misunderstandings we both mentioned. Its just a way to convey the topic to laypersons.Apologies for not mentioning my credentials.


Oh, I'm calm. That was a trolling Trojan Horse I put at the top there :D

But to explain where I'm coming from...it alarms me to see "they just think differently" without deeper explanation because there are so many people out there who would read it and jump to a conclusion that medical treatment is a conspiracy and therefore we should stop helping people out.
 
2013-02-28 12:37:45 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: torusXL: Btw I'm not at all saying "Pssh she doesn't have bipolar!". I'm genuinely curious to just learn more about it in contrast to the more "standard" disorders that tend to involve some anger.

many of those who suffer with bi-polar disorder can exhibit rage in both their mania and depressive phases, the over abundance or lack there of regarding their emotional state can cause them to outburst at people around them, or act violently towards objects and people.

I live with one, its interesting when meds don't work.

And by interesting I mean tape the windows its a farking hurricane.


She takes lamotrigine (300mg QHS iirc) and it keeps her episodes to about 2-4 per year; compared to the utter shiatshow she was before she was properly medicated.

Funny thing is, we moved across the country this past year and she had to get a new psychiatrist.  First meeting with him he tells her "Maybe you don't have bi-polar" which pissed her off to no end.  Even if she has space alien brain fart disease, what she's on now works well, so why fark with it?

Her parents think I'm a blessing from Jew Jesus since now they have someone else to help her through.  And there is nothing more rewarding than being a gentile and having your Jewish in-laws lieb you.
 
2013-02-28 12:50:55 PM
I always believed autism, ADHD and bi-polar were linked from people I personally knew. However, I know of very few people with autism who display major depression symptoms. Interesting information if this article is true.
 
2013-02-28 12:51:44 PM

torusXL: Zel: Calm down there persecution complex... we said the same thing. The article even quotes the study authors disclaiming the same misunderstandings we both mentioned. Its just a way to convey the topic to laypersons.Apologies for not mentioning my credentials.

Oh, I'm calm. That was a trolling Trojan Horse I put at the top there :D

But to explain where I'm coming from...it alarms me to see "they just think differently" without deeper explanation because there are so many people out there who would read it and jump to a conclusion that medical treatment is a conspiracy and therefore we should stop helping people out.


Again I am reminded why I have torusXL in green 3 tagged as `rational`
 
2013-02-28 12:54:10 PM

Vercengetorix: what she's on now works well, so why fark with it?


Because every doctor has to prove they are as good as Dr House and knows more than everyone else in the world ESPECIALLY YOU.
 
2013-02-28 01:01:51 PM

torusXL: But seriously...it is possible that autism itself isn't a disease and just represents some new form of neurodiversity.


It's called the "Broad Autism Phenotype", and it is not new, by any stretch of the imagination. The very wide prevalence of associated genetic polymorphisms across multiple populations means that it has been around for a very long time. If it were new, it would be concentrated in a small population. That "autism" (clinical pathology) is allegedly more "common" in industrial societies says more about the flaws of these industrial societies than about the actual prevalence of underlying biological conditions. Someone who, in a small farming village, would just have been a bit stand-offish and quirky, is "diseased" in a dehumanizing factory or office, where people are expected to adhere to an arbitrary, rigid standard of behavior.

However, in the context of our society, it can be debilitating. We can't know what we don't know about autism until we scrutinize it and...learn what we don't know.

Schizophrenia is very most likely a disease. It's just very complex, and I think part of that complexity is being uncovered with the "glutamate hypothesis". Basically, recent evidence suggests that a root cause of schizophrenia might involve some malfunction or collapse of the NMDA system which then causes other systems to malfunction, such as executive control and dopamine regulation.


Let's make it more confusing. A glutamate hypothesis was also floated for quite a long time to explain Alzheimer's disease. NMDA modifying drugs can ameliorate some Alzheimer's symptoms. There is a glutamate hypothesis for every major neurological condition, actually. This is because glutamate pathways are central to all neurological functions.
 
2013-02-28 01:08:11 PM

torusXL: Subby, what does all these things have to do with each other? Well, for one, you did not decline the verb correctly


Came here to say this.  This.

Bad subby.  No cookie for you.
 
2013-02-28 02:16:29 PM

dready zim: Again I am reminded why I have torusXL in green 3 tagged as `rational`


Haha, well I guess my position is that reality is a useful thing to understand.
I'm glad you were able to see through the drunk posts :P
 
2013-02-28 02:23:08 PM
It's not all bad. When I get manic I get a TON of work done, and my house is spotless.
/btw my bi-polar friends, Limictal is a wonder drug
//night and day I tell ya. I've never felt so "normal" in my life.
 
2013-02-28 02:38:28 PM
What is my family for $1,000, Alex.
 
2013-02-28 03:02:15 PM
They all were in the cast of Saturday Night Live?

They were all the personalities of the cast of Ghostbusters?

Names of the new Power Rangers?

They all are Yu-Gi-Oh monsters?

The excuses they will make up for the former pope?
 
2013-02-28 07:58:13 PM
I'm into bi polar chicks, also sub Saharan ones. I'm not that picky.
 
2013-02-28 09:33:33 PM
No duh.

My daughter has ADHD (diagnosed back when no one had heard of it except professionals and Adderal hadn't even been invented yet), my nephew has Asperger's Syndrome (again diagnosed before anyone had ever heard of it).

My husband suffered from ADHD and dyslexia (undiagnosed but quite apparent according to family stories). His sister has never read a book for pleasure and cannot use a computer, most likely because of dyslexia issues, but again, she is undiagnosed.

We've traced these issues to my husband's mother's side of the family. She couldn't pay attention in school before WWII in Europe. She said she was always getting in trouble at school because she was entranced by whatever was out the window and wouldn't stay in her seat. When the war came, no one cared about such things anymore, let alone tried to diagnose it.

The point is that these disorders run in families and people can get one or another of them, some mildly (my daughter) and some severely (my nephew), depending on the genetic quirk in their make up and who else contributed genes that could mitigate them somewhat.

What we need is better ways to manage the disorders. Hopefully, the genetic basis will allow for some understanding of the mechanisms and thus better medication.
 
2013-02-28 10:10:13 PM

pkellmey: I always believed autism, ADHD and bi-polar were linked from people I personally knew. However, I know of very few people with autism who display major depression symptoms. Interesting information if this article is true.


I had a psychiatrist suggest that he'd like to try me on mood stabilisers as he thought my ADHD was co-morbid with bipolar. I decided against it because I am not manic-depressive so much as manic-not quite so manic and to my mind that was the best possible outcome. Especially as (from what I hear) most bipolar folk miss the highs (and many will take the lows rather than the meds, because if they get rid of the depths, the peaks go too).
 
2013-02-28 11:13:28 PM
Did the N.S. Sherlock Wing of the Obvious Institute figure this out? Being a psychology major with ADHD this doesn't surprise me at all. There's a thin line between ADHD/bi-polar and Schizophrenia/bi-polar. ADHD itself is probably a form of autism. Major depression is a symptom of all of those except autism. The difference is that the depression is secondary with ADHD while primary with bi-polar and Schizophrenia. So yeah, this isn't surprising at all. It is cool that they've confirmed my theory. The major difference in all of these is simply severity and length of the symptoms. I have mood swings with ADHD sometimes, but it's because I lose my patience with ignorance. I'll realize I shouldn't get annoyed, and the irritation will cease. Now if I had lengthy and wild "just because" mood swings it would be bi-polar. Ya dig, right? You people see where I'm going.
 
2013-02-28 11:32:48 PM

torusXL: Subby, what does all these things have to do with each other? Well, for one, you did not decline the verb correctly ^^

Vercengetorix: My wife's manic phase is extreme, sudden anger.  Beats the shiat out of a pillow every time.

That's interesting, I didn't know bipolar could express that way. So instead of sad/happy manias, she has anger manias?


In me at least it's not "happy" as much as "stimulated." Revved up, intense, as opposed to depression's slowing and covering everything except the feeling of misery. When manic I can go from being tickled purple to furious in a very short time because what matters is the high wattage, not whether it's making heat or light.


How is that different from, say, borderline rage outbursts or ADHD impulsive outbursts?

I don't know about ADHD, but it seems "borderline" is more variable than mania: instead of going instantly from joy to fury you go from a flat state to an intense one. And there's more short-term triggering involved, as when one girlfriend was having a mellow good time till she saw her friend flirt with me and me enjoy it, then all of a sudden she got VERY upset. With mania I'm already revved up, it's just a matter of which direction the energy takes.

Then there are people who are always simmering with anger and then get very heated, like the domestic abuser in the other thread. It's hard to picture such people being happy, unlike manics and borderlines; it's more a matter of how angry they are at any given time. Such people should be shot, IMHO.
 
2013-02-28 11:52:12 PM
torusXL:

NMDA antagonists like ketamine are known to relieve depression immediately,

Unfortunately I've never heard of street ketamine in Lexington, KY. It seems that's more of a San Francisco and Manhattan gay male club drug, where around here the in drugs are pain pills and meth. Which sucks because I can't score "special K" at a dance club and test that hypothesis.

But the fact that a drug relieves a paticular symptom doesn't necessarily mean that the cause is a chemical deficiency or malfunction. E.g., heroin will make almost anybody feel better albeit more sedated: a depressed person will feel his mood improve and happy person will get even happier, so not everybody who gets high on smack will have an opiate receptor problem. Of course I speak not as an expert but as a witness and sometime participant, so what someone reads in a current edition of a textbook might vary greatly from what I've seen or experienced in "uncontrolled" real life with no electrodes attached: generalizing from one to the other is like translating with Google.
 
2013-03-01 12:01:47 AM

pkellmey: I always believed autism, ADHD and bi-polar were linked from people I personally knew. However, I know of very few people with autism who display major depression symptoms. Interesting information if this article is true.


I'm not surprised either. I know a guy who was on medication for ADHD as a kid, only to have the diagnosis changed a few years later to Aspergers. I'm assuming, of course, that they're including the autism spectrum disorders with those that are genetically linked. Doesn't say it in the article, but it would make sense in my non-psychiatrist view.
 
2013-03-01 12:13:58 AM
What about OCD? Intuitively seems like that should belong with that group too.

I wouldn't be surprised by a link. I'm scatterbrained, obsessive, and suffer from depression and anxiety. Although it doesn't manifest, I feel like there's some bi-polar that could come out if I ever sunk low enough. My grandma was bi-polar, and my father famously has 'moods' he goes in and out of. I've always felt like I could sympathize with certain disorders, even though I didn't have them. Schizo I understand, bi-polar I understand, OCD I totally understand. Paranoid personality disorder not so much.

Vercengetorix: My wife's manic phase is extreme, sudden anger.  Beats the shiat out of a pillow every time.


With my recent return to an exercise routine, I've noticed that my post-workout high often includes a lot of anger. Not upset, but like righteously angry. I don't do any punching, but I did have some colorful words for an old flame on facebook, which felt good to say.
 
2013-03-01 12:18:21 AM

The One True TheDavid: But the fact that a drug relieves a paticular symptom doesn't necessarily mean that the cause is a chemical deficiency or malfunction. E.g., heroin will make almost anybody feel better albeit more sedated: a depressed person will feel his mood improve and happy person will get even happier, so not everybody who gets high on smack will have an opiate receptor problem.


Yes, of course. However, the issue is that society having irrational fears of ketamine means scientists have major legal roadblocks in being able to study the reasons why it helps depression. Who's to say that one year of intensely studying ketamine depression relief wouldn't result in the obvious cure for depression? Problem is, it might never be obvious unless ketamine is given a chance. Even worse, the illegality of ketamine results in a massive social stigma. Just look what you said: "special K". Next, you launched into a misguided analogy about heroin.

You are free to harbor whatever unfair stigma you want, but I will never believe that it is not worth it to give people relief for their suffering and then to use that as a step stone for discovering how to provide even better relief, one that lacks, say, addiction potential.
 
2013-03-01 12:21:59 AM
they are all basically brain noise-pollution?
 
2013-03-01 12:31:06 AM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Sounds like my drama club during high school


You might think you're just making a funny, but musicians/artists/creative types in general suffer these kinds of conditions at far higher rates than the general population. Brilliant scientists also have a tendency towards borderline personality issues, especially later in life.

The line between genius and insanity is both thin and hazy.
 
2013-03-01 02:22:20 AM

The One True TheDavid: torusXL: Subby, what does all these things have to do with each other? Well, for one, you did not decline the verb correctly ^^

Vercengetorix: My wife's manic phase is extreme, sudden anger.  Beats the shiat out of a pillow every time.

That's interesting, I didn't know bipolar could express that way. So instead of sad/happy manias, she has anger manias?

In me at least it's not "happy" as much as "stimulated." Revved up, intense, as opposed to depression's slowing and covering everything except the feeling of misery. When manic I can go from being tickled purple to furious in a very short time because what matters is the high wattage, not whether it's making heat or light.


How is that different from, say, borderline rage outbursts or ADHD impulsive outbursts?

I don't know about ADHD, but it seems "borderline" is more variable than mania: instead of going instantly from joy to fury you go from a flat state to an intense one. And there's more short-term triggering involved, as when one girlfriend was having a mellow good time till she saw her friend flirt with me and me enjoy it, then all of a sudden she got VERY upset. With mania I'm already revved up, it's just a matter of which direction the energy takes.

Then there are people who are always simmering with anger and then get very heated, like the domestic abuser in the other thread. It's hard to picture such people being happy, unlike manics and borderlines; it's more a matter of how angry they are at any given time. Such people should be shot, IMHO.


That's how my manic phases are too. I can turn to super biatch in an instant. I'm on Lamotrigine too, and it seems to be doing really well for me. I just wish I had been on it, and had a doctor who would've put me proper dosage sooner...My marriage would've ended better, I think.
My son has Asperger's (yes, I know, they're not using that term anymore) and ADHD, my father had depression, I'm pretty sure my mom does too, so  a genetic link makes  a lot of sense to me.
 
2013-03-01 08:56:52 AM
Once you become educated about these things, you find that overall... everyone ends up qualifying for one (or more) of these such ailments, one way or another...

It's all about the degree of the symptom(s).
 
2013-03-02 11:41:09 AM
Low Latent Inhibition has links to Schizophrenia, Autism, and ADHD.

/just throwing that out there.
 
2013-03-02 12:55:06 PM

torusXL: The One True TheDavid:

But the fact that a drug relieves a paticular symptom doesn't necessarily mean that the cause is a chemical deficiency or malfunction. E.g., heroin will make almost anybody feel better albeit more sedated: a depressed person will feel his mood improve and happy person will get even happier, so not everybody who gets high on smack will have an opiate receptor problem.

Yes, of course. However, the issue is that society having irrational fears of ketamine means scientists have major legal roadblocks in being able to study the reasons why it helps depression. Who's to say that one year of intensely studying ketamine depression relief wouldn't result in the obvious cure for depression? Problem is, it might never be obvious unless ketamine is given a chance. Even worse, the illegality of ketamine results in a massive social stigma. Just look what you said: "special K". Next, you launched into a misguided analogy about heroin.

You are free to harbor whatever unfair stigma you want, but I will never believe that it is not worth it to give people relief for their suffering and then to use that as a step stone for discovering how to provide even better relief, one that lacks, say, addiction potential.


Actually I did not mean to stigmatize users of either heroin or ketamine, it's just that I prefer the street terms for these drugs. Nor did I mean to imply that there's anything wrong with their use, whether therapeutically or recreationally; I also say they should both be legalized, along with marijuana and LSD (for example).

As to whether an analogy between ketamine and heroin is misguided or not, I also doubt that the presence of CNS receptors for ketamine to bind to indicates there's any such thing as a ketamin deficiency; I could make the same point about aspirin and Benadryl. My point is that the medical model is pushed too far and overused.

When I don't get enough caffeine for a long enough period I go into withdrawal, or you could also say that at those times I become "caffeine deficient," and it's true that I became addicted to caffeine in the first place because drinking coffee gave me a feeling of increased mental and physical well-being. Whether this means I was born with faulty caffeine receptors sounds funny when you consider how many of us caffeine addicts there are in the world: did this drug catch on because all of our brains are broken in the same way?

As to using ketamine against depression or developing an analog to it to treat depression with, why the hell not? It sounds like something I might try if someone offered it to me, and it would be better if it were offered therapeutically by a medical professional trained in its administration. One problem with keeping such drugs illegal is you don't know what's in those pills, powders or rocks you buy on the corner: there might well be something in there that would depress me even more. Or give me a stroke; my brain is damaged enough already from years of literal hard knocks and of misusing street drugs for whatever reason.
 
2013-03-02 12:57:56 PM

dready zim: Vercengetorix:

what she's on now works well, so why fark with it?

Because every doctor has to prove they are as good as Dr House and knows more than everyone else in the world ESPECIALLY YOU.


But, like, sometimes it IS lupus.
 
2013-03-02 01:03:02 PM
ADHD Librarian:  (from what I hear) most bipolar folk miss the highs (and many will take the lows rather than the meds, because if they get rid of the depths, the peaks go too).

I medicate the lows because I don't want to spend ALL my time being DFW's "The Depressed Person." The highs only get medicated when they get so out of hand that I stand a good chance of being arrested, beaten up and/or shot, which ain't THAT often. Naturally, YMMV.
 
2013-03-02 01:22:22 PM
Virtuoso80:

What about OCD? Intuitively seems like that should belong with that group too.

Oh man, I have that too. SSRIs help but whe I left last night it took a lot to restrain my re-checking the stove, furnace and faucets to twice, then halfway over here I had to stop several times to convince myself I didn't have go back and check again.

It used to be that I'd have long, elaborate ritual to perform and re-perform before I left and that there were days when I had to go back to bed because I just couldn't get it RIGHT. Soap didn't last very long, neither did skin lotion.


I wouldn't be surprised by a link. I'm scatterbrained, obsessive, and suffer from depression and anxiety. Although it doesn't manifest, I feel like there's some bi-polar that could come out if I ever sunk low enough. My grandma was bi-polar, and my father famously has 'moods' he goes in and out of. I've always felt like I could sympathize with certain disorders, even though I didn't have them. Schizo I understand, bi-polar I understand, OCD I totally understand. Paranoid personality disorder not so much.

All that sounds familiar, except for the last bit. Don't you know that denying there's a conspiracy only proves you're in on it too?!?

"It's not that I'm so special, it's that agencies of repression naturally attract easily-bored sadistic types. There are only so many Trotskyite splinter groups to infiltrate, after all!" Of course the War On Terror doesn't help any: about a year ago I got the notion that my recent criticisms of Israel inspired a team of "Them" to slip into my aparent and steal my favorite plastic soup bowls just to show me They were still watching. Seriously.  It turned out I'd put them inside my plastic mixing bowl and set that atop the fridge, which doesn't necessarily prove Mossad involvement even if I do have an implant up my butt.

It comes & goes, but I'm always tempted to believe my world is full of enemies. And how would you prove that DHS is never out to get me?

So. Are you now or have you ever been involved in any way with any intelligence-gathering organization anywhere in the world? And yes, sometimes the Library of Congress does count.
 
2013-03-02 02:00:38 PM

The One True TheDavid: Virtuoso80:

What about OCD? Intuitively seems like that should belong with that group too.

Oh man, I have that too. SSRIs help but whe I left last night it took a lot to restrain my re-checking the stove, furnace and faucets to twice, then halfway over here I had to stop several times to convince myself I didn't have go back and check again.

It used to be that I'd have long, elaborate ritual to perform and re-perform before I left and that there were days when I had to go back to bed because I just couldn't get it RIGHT. Soap didn't last very long, neither did skin lotion.


I only rarely exhibit compulsive behaviors. On occasion I'll see some stuff on a desk, and feel a desire to arrange it all in a straight line or something, but I forget about it pretty easily.

On the other hand, I am obsessive. When I find an idea I like, I don't let go of it. I remember I really wanted to try a certain restaurant, but the people I was meeting weren't into it, and wanted to go somewhere else. What did I do? I took the train in 2 hours early, so I could try that restaurant on my own, and then went to dinner with people right after. Hell, if I had had the flu, I probably would have cancelled dinner with people on the grounds of being sick, but still gone to that other restaurant anyway. I just cannot be deterred from wanting something.
 
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