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(The New York Times)   "The question should not be why Americans loathe and fear dependence on the state, but rather: why do Americans loathe and fear some forms of state dependence but not others?"   (opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com) divider line 63
    More: Interesting, Americans, Americans loathe, contemporary philosophers, just society, developed country, life chances, political philosophers, economic recession  
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1932 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Feb 2013 at 5:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-27 02:20:11 PM
Because they're told what to fear?
 
2013-02-27 02:21:20 PM
Before even clicking the article, I'm going to go out on a limb and say "they don't understand how sh*t works".
 
2013-02-27 02:26:50 PM

Rev.K: Before even clicking the article, I'm going to go out on a limb and say "they don't understand how sh*t works".


Don't worry, Fox News will set them straight in no time.
 
2013-02-27 02:28:31 PM
Better question, "Why do so many people view the State/Government as something separate from themselves?"
 
2013-02-27 02:29:46 PM
The reaction by politicians to a small cut in spending with sequester can be inferred to mean those yelling the most about the cut think that the government is already so efficient that even with spending millions more this year compare to last year means the government will just fall apart. Any one that has watched anything to do with federal spending has empirical evidence that the Federal government does not even come close to spending in a responsible manner and to rely on them to provide services in a manner for a societal good is akin to relying on a syphilitic alcoholic "uncle" to provide for day to day needs; sure he may have good days and provide all that is needed but there will be long strengths of time where he forgets not to soil himself.
 
2013-02-27 02:37:44 PM
FTA:

Unlike gay marriage or abortion, issues that divide left from right, everyone, no matter where they lie on the American political spectrum, loathes and fears state dependence.


St_Francis_P: Because they're told what to fear?


Well that came full circle pretty quick.
 
2013-02-27 02:57:03 PM

Rev.K: Before even clicking the article, I'm going to go out on a limb and say "they don't understand how sh*t works".


It's really not too bad. Better than most anyway.
 
2013-02-27 02:59:44 PM
Because this:

i76.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-27 03:03:03 PM

eurotrader: The reaction by politicians to a small cut in spending with sequester can be inferred to mean those yelling the most about the cut think that the government is already so efficient that even with spending millions more this year compare to last year means the government will just fall apart. Any one that has watched anything to do with federal spending has empirical evidence that the Federal government does not even come close to spending in a responsible manner and to rely on them to provide services in a manner for a societal good is akin to relying on a syphilitic alcoholic "uncle" to provide for day to day needs; sure he may have good days and provide all that is needed but there will be long strengths of time where he forgets not to soil himself.


Then you'll have no problems detailing precisely how debt and deficit issues will be solved simply by looking in your nation's couch cushions.  I'm not suggesting that there's not waste- but to suggest that efficiencies alone are the solution misses the point by several orders of magnitude.
 
2013-02-27 03:03:06 PM

Rev.K: FTA:

Unlike gay marriage or abortion, issues that divide left from right, everyone, no matter where they lie on the American political spectrum, loathes and fears state dependence.


St_Francis_P: Because they're told what to fear?

Well that came full circle pretty quick.


Except about 90% of Americans would probably opt for a Government run insurance program over a private one in a heartbeat.
 
2013-02-27 03:16:15 PM

unyon: eurotrader: The reaction by politicians to a small cut in spending with sequester can be inferred to mean those yelling the most about the cut think that the government is already so efficient that even with spending millions more this year compare to last year means the government will just fall apart. Any one that has watched anything to do with federal spending has empirical evidence that the Federal government does not even come close to spending in a responsible manner and to rely on them to provide services in a manner for a societal good is akin to relying on a syphilitic alcoholic "uncle" to provide for day to day needs; sure he may have good days and provide all that is needed but there will be long strengths of time where he forgets not to soil himself.

Then you'll have no problems detailing precisely how debt and deficit issues will be solved simply by looking in your nation's couch cushions.  I'm not suggesting that there's not waste- but to suggest that efficiencies alone are the solution misses the point by several orders of magnitude.


The idea that smaller government is better derives from corporate executives who want a smaller government because it can regulate less. Less regulation doesn't make better products, but let's them cut more corners, pollute more, and shift safety to a concept of buyer beware.

People who think less regulation is better don't want you to pay any attention to the current meat crisis in Europe, which was only found out because of regulation.
 
2013-02-27 03:21:54 PM
Because the color gray is a myth perpetuated by the Illuminati and their globalist henchmen.
 
2013-02-27 04:09:21 PM

Rev.K: Before even clicking the article, I'm going to go out on a limb and say "they don't understand how sh*t works".


i guess that it was due to a combination of "i've got mine, fark you" and "because they are black/brown"
 
2013-02-27 04:17:32 PM

unyon: eurotrader: The reaction by politicians to a small cut in spending with sequester can be inferred to mean those yelling the most about the cut think that the government is already so efficient that even with spending millions more this year compare to last year means the government will just fall apart. Any one that has watched anything to do with federal spending has empirical evidence that the Federal government does not even come close to spending in a responsible manner and to rely on them to provide services in a manner for a societal good is akin to relying on a syphilitic alcoholic "uncle" to provide for day to day needs; sure he may have good days and provide all that is needed but there will be long strengths of time where he forgets not to soil himself.

Then you'll have no problems detailing precisely how debt and deficit issues will be solved simply by looking in your nation's couch cushions.  I'm not suggesting that there's not waste- but to suggest that efficiencies alone are the solution misses the point by several orders of magnitude.


I have no problem with Federal government performing a myriad of services to citizens. A biggie is healthcare and a real system to care for all, there is plenty of money already collected for that but instead incompetence got in the way of doing any real sustainable change. OMB has shown billions that could be cut due to programs that are duplicated multiple times in different agencies but to protect the fiefdoms that come with budgets that allow enormous amounts of waste officials will highlight and actual cause the harm itself to people to protect their bloated budget. There should not be one citizen that is denied basic healthcare and food in the US. It is actually cheaper to provide the basic level of care for 1000 citizens then one major health problem because of lack of care. The shelter thing gets iffy after seeing how far the UK has gone down the tubes and the widespread abuse of sec. 8 housing. Section 8 housing seems like a good idea until the abuses of the system are examined. It goes back to the Federal government as an entity is gross incompetent and there is no political will to change. The US does have far too many rules and regs and no one person or group actually knows them all. A large scale reform of US code is needed instead of just dumping layers and layers of more rules that can not be enforced because the way of complying with the rules is never offered or it is just a feel good law.

a link for the GAO report showing billions in cuts that will not reduce services at all.
 http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-318SP#mt=e-report&st=3
 
2013-02-27 04:34:32 PM

eurotrader: I have no problem with Federal government performing a myriad of services to citizens. A biggie is healthcare and a real system to care for all, there is plenty of money already collected for that but instead incompetence got in the way of doing any real sustainable change. OMB has shown billions that could be cut due to programs that are duplicated multiple times in different agencies but to protect the fiefdoms that come with budgets that allow enormous amounts of waste officials will highlight and actual cause the harm itself to people to protect their bloated budget. There should not be one citizen that is denied basic healthcare and food in the US. It is actually cheaper to provide the basic level of care for 1000 citizens then one major health problem because of lack of care. The shelter thing gets iffy after seeing how far the UK has gone down the tubes and the widespread abuse of sec. 8 housing. Section ...


In my opinion, it's systemic.  From this Canadians perspective, being ruled from the edges results in public policy that is often the worst of both worlds (vote for tier 1 services on tier 3 funding, then pay twice what it should have cost as a result).  Which is why the US has 5 different health care systems, one that mimics each of the 5 ways that public health is generally delivered worldwide, and none of them are particularly good at it.  It's hardly surprising that there is inefficiency in that approach.

Obamacare could have been as simple as dropping the medicare age to zero and tweaking the service levels appropriately.  Extended services beyond the critical basics continue to be provided via employer plans.  No massive new administrative infrastructure required.  But that's not the American way.

It's good to hear your pragmatic side, though.  I never got that vibe from you before.
 
2013-02-27 04:50:17 PM
Why do people like asking such abstract questions? Is it because they have crabs?
 
2013-02-27 05:07:58 PM

kid_icarus: Because this:

[i76.photobucket.com image 240x240]


The question (or rather, belief) is a lot older than that.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-02-27 05:15:50 PM

mrshowrules: Better question, "Why do so many people view the State/Government as something separate from themselves?"


What?
 
2013-02-27 05:20:32 PM

vpb: mrshowrules: Better question, "Why do so many people view the State/Government as something separate from themselves?"

What?


Government by the people.
 
2013-02-27 05:59:24 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-27 06:03:17 PM

mrshowrules: Rev.K: FTA:

Unlike gay marriage or abortion, issues that divide left from right, everyone, no matter where they lie on the American political spectrum, loathes and fears state dependence.


St_Francis_P: Because they're told what to fear?

Well that came full circle pretty quick.

Except about 90% of Americans would probably opt for a Government run insurance program over a private one in a heartbeat.


"In the matter of a difficult question, it is more likely that the correct answer will be derived by the few than by the many."  Jean Rene Descartes.  (R-Calculus)
 
2013-02-27 06:03:30 PM
I'll throw it out there.

For many Americans, the only emotion they feel that is as strong as their love of Jesus, is their disgust at the thought that one thin dime of their hard earned paycheck goes to feed somone darker than them.
 
2013-02-27 06:04:35 PM
It's simple...  communism for the rich, capitalism for the rest.

The rich already have good lawyers, lobbyists, and power... they prefer the Status Quo, in it they are the winners.

They even came up with a philosophy called Objectivism championed by Ayn Rand to support their Social Darwinism ideals.
dadandburied.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-27 06:05:01 PM
No, no, Americans don't loathe or fear any dependence on the state; those are the wrong verbs to use. They love the dependence on the state that benefits them and they hate the dependence on the state that isn't useful to them right now.

Take old couples that biatch about paying property taxes to fund local schools, for example. They shouldn't have to do that because they don't have kids, according to them, but thirty years ago, when little Johnny was in school, they were all for it. Now, if you try to argue, using their logic, that since you aren't using Medicare right now, you shouldn't have to pay for it, they'll accuse you of ageism and vote you out of office if they can, even if you don't actually hold office.
 
2013-02-27 06:06:48 PM
They're ignorant.
 
2013-02-27 06:07:31 PM

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 553x700]


Well that infographic is sure to spark a well informed discussion.
 
2013-02-27 06:15:50 PM

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 553x700]


I'm not sure if that graphic achieves the goal of equating a Republican talking point with an esteemed US institution like the military.

Are you against soldiers?  The military?  Or gays?  I'm not sure what your message is...

Are you saying that the mostly poor & minority who serve in the military are not doing a job?

While I agree that we need to scale down the military and stop our foreign war excursions, at no point would I think it's wise to insult a person who has sworn an oath of loyalty and put his life on the line and then call him a Welfare Queen.

Are you taking advice from the hippies who were spitting on Vietnam vets when they returned home?
 
2013-02-27 06:27:30 PM
Couple "What helps me when I'm down is OK, what helps others when they are down is not" with "I'll be rich some day", and you have your answer

What's difficult to understand about this?
 
2013-02-27 06:28:36 PM

NostroZ: While I agree that we need to scale down the military and stop our foreign war excursions, at no point would I think it's wise to insult a person who has sworn an oath of loyalty and put his life on the line and then call him a Welfare Queen.


I gotta find out if he (or she) generally aligns with my own ideological preferences.

If so, then she (or he) is using provocative imagery to kickstart a meaningful discussion.

If not, then he (or she) is a worthless troll that should be ignored.
 
2013-02-27 06:30:08 PM

NostroZ: Are you taking advice from the hippies who were spitting on Vietnam vets when they returned home?


I thought that was more of an urban legend than anything else?
 
2013-02-27 06:34:34 PM

NostroZ: not doing a job?


The military is mostly useless and the people in it are mostly  in it for the money, just like the rest of us.

NostroZ: sworn an oath


What are we, Celtic tribesmen? Swiss? No. We are all citizens of a republic.

NostroZ: Are you taking advice from the hippies who were spitting on Vietnam vets when they returned home?


You actually believe this, right?
 
2013-02-27 06:37:11 PM
So, We The People are supposed to pony up our money for taxes and not even expect anything in return?
 
2013-02-27 06:41:08 PM

NostroZ: It's simple...  communism for the rich, capitalism for the rest.

The rich already have good lawyers, lobbyists, and power... they prefer the Status Quo, in it they are the winners.

They even came up with a philosophy called Objectivism championed by Ayn Rand to support their Social Darwinism ideals.
[dadandburied.files.wordpress.com image 500x425]


i50.tinypic.com
 
2013-02-27 06:41:56 PM
Look, I'm not deluded enough to believe that ANY Politician is going to lower MY taxes.

At a similar tax rate in France or Norway, I would have HealthCare, Secondary Education and a Pension. Not to mention living in a growing cultural environment and a somewhat sustainable infrastructure.

Its not dependence on the state I worry about, its being left behind in the real world.

I just want a better ROI.
 
2013-02-27 06:47:28 PM
Because nothing's a cliche when it's happening to you?
 
2013-02-27 07:03:37 PM
I think the real problem in America is the lack of compassion. People roll out these crap arguments when the government takes an interest in the lives of poor or middle class people.
 
2013-02-27 07:23:52 PM

ilambiquated: I think the real problem in America is the lack of compassion. People roll out these crap arguments when the government takes an interest in the lives of poor or middle class people.


That's not unique to America. Authoritarians can be found anywhere including France, Britain and Sweden. The only difference is that they have got the upper hand in the US Congress - for now anyway.
 
2013-02-27 07:25:07 PM

ilambiquated: NostroZ: not doing a job?

The military is mostly useless and the people in it are mostly  in it for the money, just like the rest of us.

NostroZ: sworn an oath

What are we, Celtic tribesmen? Swiss? No. We are all citizens of a republic.

NostroZ: Are you taking advice from the hippies who were spitting on Vietnam vets when they returned home?

You actually believe this, right?


I think you would find out how wrong that is if the military was suddenly no longer there. You would need to brush up on your Chinese.
 
2013-02-27 07:26:44 PM

Heraclitus: Look, I'm not deluded enough to believe that ANY Politician is going to lower MY taxes.

At a similar tax rate in France or Norway, I would have HealthCare, Secondary Education and a Pension. Not to mention living in a growing cultural environment and a somewhat sustainable infrastructure.

Its not dependence on the state I worry about, its being left behind in the real world.

I just want a better ROI.


Did you mean tertiary education?
 
2013-02-27 07:27:15 PM

eurotrader: The reaction by politicians to a small cut in spending with sequester can be inferred to mean those yelling the most about the cut think that the government is already so efficient that even with spending millions more this year compare to last year means the government will just fall apart. Any one that has watched anything to do with federal spending has empirical evidence that the Federal government does not even come close to spending in a responsible manner and to rely on them to provide services in a manner for a societal good is akin to relying on a syphilitic alcoholic "uncle" to provide for day to day needs; sure he may have good days and provide all that is needed but there will be long strengths of time where he forgets not to soil himself.


And the obvious solution is therefore to cut the same amount from inefficient and efficient programs alike. Because that won't negatively affect any government services.
 
2013-02-27 07:57:21 PM

Diogenes: vpb: mrshowrules: Better question, "Why do so many people view the State/Government as something separate from themselves?"

What?

Government by the people.


This.  The us/them shiat is getting old.  Either you feel your Government is an extension of the collective will or you have bigger problems then the role of Government.
 
2013-02-27 08:00:09 PM

kg2095: Heraclitus: Look, I'm not deluded enough to believe that ANY Politician is going to lower MY taxes.

At a similar tax rate in France or Norway, I would have HealthCare, Secondary Education and a Pension. Not to mention living in a growing cultural environment and a somewhat sustainable infrastructure.

Its not dependence on the state I worry about, its being left behind in the real world.

I just want a better ROI.

Did you mean tertiary education?

 
2013-02-27 08:02:42 PM

Heraclitus: kg2095: Heraclitus: Look, I'm not deluded enough to believe that ANY Politician is going to lower MY taxes.

At a similar tax rate in France or Norway, I would have HealthCare, Secondary Education and a Pension. Not to mention living in a growing cultural environment and a somewhat sustainable infrastructure.

Its not dependence on the state I worry about, its being left behind in the real world.

I just want a better ROI.

Did you mean tertiary education?


Yes, College or Trade School where it applies.
 
2013-02-27 08:06:07 PM

kg2095: ilambiquated: NostroZ: not doing a job?

The military is mostly useless and the people in it are mostly  in it for the money, just like the rest of us.

NostroZ: sworn an oath

What are we, Celtic tribesmen? Swiss? No. We are all citizens of a republic.

NostroZ: Are you taking advice from the hippies who were spitting on Vietnam vets when they returned home?

You actually believe this, right?

I think you would find out how wrong that is if the military was suddenly no longer there. You would need to brush up on your Chinese.


The Canadians would be the first to invade. Actually, I'm surprised they haven't already. The border is undefended.
 
2013-02-27 10:00:06 PM

Baryogenesis: The Canadians would be the first to invade. Actually, I'm surprised they haven't already. The border is undefended.


It would take decades to educate the average American and probably half a century to get a decent curling squad ready for international competition.  Too much work.  We'll just wait for the GOP to tank the economy and buy the parts we want.
 
2013-02-27 10:26:04 PM
Because we are all hypocrites
 
2013-02-27 10:50:38 PM
Bailing out the banks doesn't count, right?
 
2013-02-27 10:55:45 PM
Stuff that goes to THOSE people is bad.

You know what I mean.
 
2013-02-27 11:01:55 PM
wait, if the rich only get rich through government handouts, and the poor only get anything from handouts, how the is the government getting all this money for handouts? the median family with two kids and mortgage doesn't pay shiat in income taxes, the rich guy doesn't pay income taxes, the poor get money back. who the f*ck is the poor schmuck paying taxes?
 
2013-02-27 11:04:43 PM
Hitler took the guns! Mao took the guns! 1776 will commence again if you try to take our guns!
 
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