Now if we could officially define Japanese whalers as Ninja's....

BuckTurgidson: Sea Shepherd activists have collided with Japanese ships in campaign to halt whale hunts.

Haven't Japanese ships deliberately collided with Sea Shepherd ships, ramming and destroying and sinking them?

Has Sea Shepherd ever floated a craft that could ram and sink a whaling ship?

Has a treaty-busting Jap whaling ship ever faced credible threat of being rammed and sunk by a Sea Shepherd zodiac?

When you place a smaller ship in the path of a larger ship, and said larger ship runs you over, it is your own Damn fault.

I can't remember the exact name for it, but in maritime law it is the job of the smaller ship to get out of the way, not the larger one.

Law of gross tonnage?

The whaler ships are behemoths, the activist ships are small and fast.if they get smashed and all on board drown, it is their own Damn fault

doglover: Does this mean they can use real firearms against the Japanese whaling fleet?

Yes, but they are limited to muskets, cannons, and flintlock pistols.

They are also allowed the use of cutlasses and daggers.

ThunderPelvis: No one has ever really sufficiently explained to me why whales are some much more AWESOME than cows or pigs or chickens. I know carnivores who get all teary-eyed about whales in mid-bacon sandwich. I guess pigs just aren't cute enough, or something. Maybe if they could whine underwater a little better...

there are plenty of pigs left.

ThunderPelvis: That would certainly justify lethal force

How so ?

Japanese boats enter New Zealand and Australian waters often
Confiscation is common, we are allowed to use armed force against that (under international law)

Fishing, Trading, and Merchant boats are not allowed to arm
Defence vessels are.

// Kiwi born, maori

ThunderPelvis: No one has ever really sufficiently explained to me why whales are some much more AWESOME than cows or pigs or chickens. I know carnivores who get all teary-eyed about whales in mid-bacon sandwich. I guess pigs just aren't cute enough, or something. Maybe if they could whine underwater a little better...

Because most of them are endangered species. Japan are dicks and have no respect for wildlife conservation.

doglover: Does this mean they can use real firearms against the Japanese whaling fleet?

That'd be a damn good way for gun enthusiasts to get the gun control people on their side - volunteer to hop on the Sea Shepherds with their gun collections and go after the whaling ships.

ThunderPelvis: No one has ever really sufficiently explained to me why whales are some much more AWESOME than cows or pigs or chickens. I know carnivores who get all teary-eyed about whales in mid-bacon sandwich. I guess pigs just aren't cute enough, or something. Maybe if they could whine underwater a little better...

Use that explaination to counter consumption of dogs or horses
Whales are endangered.

gravebayne2: there are plenty of pigs left

^^ THAT

susansto-helit: That'd be a damn good way for gun enthusiasts to get the gun control people on their side - volunteer to hop on the Sea Shepherds with their gun collections and go after the whaling ships

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SwingDancer: BuckTurgidson: Sea Shepherd activists have collided with Japanese ships in campaign to halt whale hunts.

Haven't Japanese ships deliberately collided with Sea Shepherd ships, ramming and destroying and sinking them?

Has Sea Shepherd ever floated a craft that could ram and sink a whaling ship?

Has a treaty-busting Jap whaling ship ever faced credible threat of being rammed and sunk by a Sea Shepherd zodiac?

When you place a smaller ship in the path of a larger ship, and said larger ship runs you over, it is your own Damn fault.

I can't remember the exact name for it, but in maritime law it is the job of the smaller ship to get out of the way, not the larger one.

Law of gross tonnage?

The whaler ships are behemoths, the activist ships are small and fast.if they get smashed and all on board drown, it is their own Damn fault

IANAL but my understanding of it is basically the vessel with the ability to safely avoid collision  mustdo so.  There really is no hard rule of who has the "right of way" like on roads, and there's clear rules on how vessels approach each other and what signals from lighting to horn blasts mean.

From what I have seen in the show they have shown a clear disregard for all of these rules/laws and that any judge would side with them is appalling.

This is coming from someone who thinks a lot of the whaling practices are abhorrent.

ThunderPelvis: There are plenty of Minke whales left, too.

Are you seriously comparing the wild population on Minke to farmed pigs ?
Intellectual honesty is not something you are familiar with ?

"Jap" is a racial slur.

They are Japanese ships. The country is Japan. The people are Japanese.

ModernLuddite: "Jap" is a racial slur.

They are Japanese ships. The country is Japan. The people are Japanese.

It's okay because whales are endangered.

Slartibartfaster: ThunderPelvis: There are plenty of Minke whales left, too.

Are you seriously comparing the wild population on Minke to farmed pigs ?
Intellectual honesty is not something you are familiar with ?

Okay, let's compare them to deer.

That better?

bakarocket: Okay, let's compare them to deer.

That better?

Where are there shortages of deer where hunters use commercial vessels to predate them ?

ThunderPelvis: There are other fish that are actually overfished and endangered, but Sea Shepherd doesn't give a fark about those fish.

Agreed

But that does not justify whaling - it means others (who are not so douchey as sea shepherd) should get out and stop the wankers who are over fishing them.

bakarocket: Slartibartfaster: ThunderPelvis: There are plenty of Minke whales left, too.

Are you seriously comparing the wild population on Minke to farmed pigs ?
Intellectual honesty is not something you are familiar with ?

Okay, let's compare them to deer.

That better?

Yes much better. You're of course aware of the period in the 1920s where deer nearly went extinct and deer hunting was banned nationwide, right?

Slartibartfaster: bakarocket: Okay, let's compare them to deer.

That better?

Where are there shortages of deer where hunters use commercial vessels to predate them ?

There are none. Just like there are no shortage of Minke Whales.

bakarocket: Slartibartfaster: bakarocket: Okay, let's compare them to deer.

That better?

Where are there shortages of deer where hunters use commercial vessels to predate them ?

There are none. Just like there are no shortage of Minke Whales.

Too bad we can't say the same for the Sei or Bryde's whales which make up nearly 10% of Japanese catches, or the Fin whales that Norway likes to catch and sell to Japan.

Draq: bakarocket: Slartibartfaster: ThunderPelvis: There are plenty of Minke whales left, too.

Are you seriously comparing the wild population on Minke to farmed pigs ?
Intellectual honesty is not something you are familiar with ?

Okay, let's compare them to deer.

That better?

Yes much better. You're of course aware of the period in the 1920s where deer nearly went extinct and deer hunting was banned nationwide, right?

Whose nation?

Now, are you aware of something called the International Whaling Commission, which is an organization with the goal of limiting the number of whales hunted in order to support a sustainable industry? And that through the actions of the IWC, whale populations are recovering? Not all of them, of course, which is why signatories to the treaty are limiting whaling of certain species.

Or did you think the IWC was trying to save whales because they are cute?

phalamir: issuing you a letter of marque

The US would also have to properly declare war for the letter of marque and reprisal to be valid. Otherwise, they'd still be committing piracy.

ThunderPelvis: Show me a single credible source that says that minke whales are endangered. The Japanese catch is primarily minke and their populations are healthy.

What do you consider credible ?

bakarocket:
Whose nation?

Now, are you aware of something called the International Whaling Commission, which is an organization with the goal of limiting the number of whales hunted in order to support a sustainable industry? And that through the actions of the IWC, whale populations are recovering? Not all of them, of course, which is why signatories to the treaty are limiting whaling of certain species.

Or did you think the IWC was trying to save whales because they are cute?

This happened in the US, and the conservation efforts to protect deer (which have been wildly successful and are still going on today) were actually started by hunters, so I'm not sure you really got the comparison there.

The issue is not with the minke whales. The issue is with Japan's BS "research" whaling, including the hunting of sei and sperm whales, both of which are endangered species.

ThunderPelvis: me why whales are some much more AWESOME than cows or pigs or chickens

Numbers, mainly. There are (gu)es(s)timates that there have been only a thousand blue whales, worldwide, in 1991. I have a number in front of me that (gu)es(s)timates the number of cows in the US alone (2008) at slightly under a hundred million. I don't know how reliable either of these numbers are, but I have no special reason to question their order of magnitude.

I didn't look up pigs or chickens, but I expect, given that they're a heavily managed species, that their numbers are equally (and perpetually) impressive.

bakarocket: an organization with the goal of limiting the number of whales hunted in order to support a sustainable industry

I support this idea

a sustainable industry is an ideal goal

But the IWC is less than honest about their control of this one

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with killing and eating any animal
Whale meat is quite delicious, so are cute little bunny rabbits (best served with creamy blue cheese and bread crumbs) but what is being done by the Japanese whalers falls well short of honest business.
My current favourite food is donkey sandwiches.

The behaviour of Japanese whalers deserves more reaction than it is currently getting

You "Letter of Marque" people are funny. You think that would fix anything? No, it would ensure their rapid destruction, as well as a deterioration in relations between Japan and the nation who issued it. Privateers, like Pirates (they are the same thing really) are valid military targets. The Japanese would be completely in the right to sink their ass, and to take the nation issuing it to task for their aggression. There is no legal way to attack a country's ships and have no repercussions, short of having a force they are unwilling to attack. This is a major reason why the Sea Shepard types don't go and use firearms or such. If they did, the Japanese would be legal in using military retaliation.

Same shiat with drug boats and the US Coast Guard. So long as it is just smuggling, the coasties and the DEA are who you have to deal with. However you fire on a USCG ship, they can legally call in the Navy, and will if they need to.

Also as mentioned in this thread, it is their job to get out of the way. Maritime right of way is very different from the road. Other than sail powered craft, the larger boat has the right of way. If you are smaller, you have to move. Anyone with a basic understanding of inertia and momentum can understand why. So if they get too close and get rammed, it is their fault. Doesn't matter if you don't think it is fair, it really is the law for naval navigation. As a practical matter if you are in a small boat and are navigating with any awareness of what you are doing, there is no way a large boat can ram you. They change direction SLOWLY. They can't go and pull a feint or something.

You can argue all you like about the moral standard, but the Sea Shepard people really have no legal standing. Park a small boat in the way of a big boat, you go squish.

sycraft: Same shiat with drug boats and the US Coast Guard

Same shiat with the jap (and chinese) fishing boats that enter New Zealand and Australian waters often to poach.

HotWingAgenda: Why in the flying f*ck would anyone need to kill a whale to research it?  That institute sounds like a thinly veiled front.  Sort of like those tobacco research institutes that are just pro-cancer lobbyists.

It is a thinly veiled front, but it is only way the Japanese can hunt whales because the International Whaling Commission is not doing the job it is supposed to do.

The IWC was once established to regulate hunting and make it more sustainable. Because number were so low, they implemented a temporary ban, which never got lifted anymore because of pressure of the environmentalist groups.

The reality is, that not all whales species are alike. The whales the Japanese hunt mainly, Minke's Whales, are in no way endangered. The "whales are so intelligent" argument also doesn't fly for these kind of whales. There is therefore no reason why the hunt of the whales shouldn't be allowed with a quota.

But, the IWC is not doing anything, so whale hunting countries have two choices: find a loophole (what the Japanese did) in the treaty, or leave or ignore the IWC (what Iceland/Norway did I think).

Another reality is that no one in Japan is really fond of whale meat, eventhough it is cheap. The whale industry is subsidized by the government just because they want to make a point to the IWC.

The solution is really quite simple: The IWC should do its job again, and regulate whaling with quotas for certain species that are no longer endanger.

Then there would be no need anymore for Japan to subsidize the whalers, and the Japanese would actually catch less whales since there isn't a market for it anyway anymore.

sycraft: You can argue all you like about the moral standard, but the Sea Shepard people really have no legal standing. Park a small boat in the way of a big boat, you go squish.

What do you propose they do ? if a law is being abused.
Prepare a sternly written letter ?

bikkurikun: The whales the Japanese hunt mainly, Minke's Whales, are in no way endangered. The "whales are so intelligent"

hunt "MAINLY" is not an excuse
"exclusively" would be better

I agree that intelligence (or the perception thereof) is not appropriate

// my dog is more intelligent than most humans I run into

Slartibartfaster: bikkurikun: The whales the Japanese hunt mainly, Minke's Whales, are in no way endangered. The "whales are so intelligent"

hunt "MAINLY" is not an excuse
"exclusively" would be better

I agree that intelligence (or the perception thereof) is not appropriate

// my dog is more intelligent than most humans I run into

Sure, but again then the IWC should start working again. Give quotas for whale species that are not endangered anymore so they can be hunted sustainably, and in turn get rid of the "research" loophole.

Kraftwerk Orange: It's not that they hate whales, it's that they love them too much!

Love to eat them, that is.

Which is a nice little lie, actually.  According to a poll last year, only 10% of the polled populace had bought any in the last year, and most of them that had, only once.  They have thousands of tonnes of the stuff piled up in warehouses.

No one really wants to eat it, so they're forcing it on public schools for their mandatory school lunch programmes (all elementary schools serve lunch), and making it into dog food.

And since it's incredibly unprofitable, the industry survives only through large government subsidies, which 90% of the population are against.  Most Japanese don't give a raggedy rat's arse about whale meat or whaling.

Now, try and stop bluefin tuna fishing and you'll see the Japanese population rain down hellfire.

bikkurikun: Give quotas for whale species that are not endangered anymore so they can be hunted sustainably, and in turn get rid of the "research" loophole

totally agreed
until then the japs are on par with the pirates in my mind
but I agree

Deathfrogg: Pretty strange, considering the fact that the Japanese are literally poaching in a protected area. Australia has banned whaling and fueling at sea in that whole zone and the Japanese factory processing ship has repeatedly rammed the Sea Shepard ships from behind and then left the scene.

The Japanese are the ones breaking multiple international laws here.

No. What the Japanese do is completely legal. Australia though, is not following international laws by declaring certain areas "protected" eventhough they have no internationally accepted jurisdiction over those areas.

The Japanese are acting in full compliance with international laws and treaties. Australia and Sea Shepherd are not.

if_i_really_have_to:
Now, try and stop bluefin tuna fishing and you'll see the Japanese population rain down hellfire.

Which is too bad because they're even more endangered than whales.

Draq: if_i_really_have_to:
Now, try and stop bluefin tuna fishing and you'll see the Japanese population rain down hellfire.

Which is too bad because they're even more endangered than whales.

The fishing practices used for catching them also threatens many other species.
I stood in the fish market in tokyo at 5am once, more fish than I have ever seen (and that was just one day)

Japanese fishing methods are not sustainable.
Chinese are improving but still behind the rest of the world.

I'm not sure who I hate more in this scenario.  At the moment, the hippie farks are in the wrong, and should be repelled with lethal force.  Still, I'd be happy to see the laws changed, so the Japanese have to stop whaling, or face the same level of force.

It might be different if whale meat was really tasty...

ThunderPelvis: primarily

This is the word that I object to

exclusively would be fine

RatMaster999: It might be different if whale meat was really tasty...

it tastes like salty beef
(and the bones are precious to my ancestors for carving)