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(Edmonton Journal)   Hockey players should not duck a hit from the other team's goons, and if they do, they should be penalized for avoiding the hit. That is what Ed Olczyk actually believes   (blogs.edmontonjournal.com) divider line 62
    More: Dumbass, Daniel Carcillo, Ed Olczyk, USA Hockey, ducks, Edmonton Oilers, Blackhawks, Jeff Petry  
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1454 clicks; posted to Sports » on 26 Feb 2013 at 10:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 05:33:40 PM  
I wonder if he'd say the same thing if it was Toews, Kane, or Hossa ducking another team's goon?
 
2013-02-26 05:46:15 PM  
Isn't a player's first job to protect himself?
 
2013-02-26 06:05:49 PM  
No, no, I get where he's coming from. For example, I've always thought that Holyfield should have been suspended from boxing for getting his ear so close to Tyson's mouth. It was a bush league move that resulted in Tyson being wrongfully exposed to Holyfield's blood and ultimately being held fully responsible for what was the natural consequence of sticking your ear in an angry dude's mouth. And that was just plain wrong.
 
2013-02-26 08:01:47 PM  
I was a fan of Eddie O when he played but that's ridiculous.

Self-preservation should be a penalty?
 
2013-02-26 10:11:39 PM  
Throwing a good solid bodycheck is a skill.  Similarely avoiding a good solid bodycheck is a skill.  Joe Nieuwendyk was probably one of the best players I ever saw who could roll off an opposing players check and keep skating.  Bottom line, if you don't have to take the hit, don't take the hit.  If you do have to take the hit, know how to minimize the impact.
 
2013-02-26 10:12:01 PM  
I read an old story of a player ducking a goon and the goon ended up with career ending injuries.  The two players later got together and the goon said "I wish I had thought of that".  Since when is hockey players suppose to play like the whiney NFL.  Eddie O should be blaming the goon for leading with his face.

/I read the story from a compilation of stories from the days before helmets
//very cool read
 
2013-02-26 10:16:57 PM  
Ed Olczyk has clearly taken one too many pucks to the head.
 
2013-02-26 10:17:26 PM  
I don't agree with this case but i don't like to see players putting themselves in bad positions like turning and facing the boards when they are about to be hit or ducking and getting hit in the head.

Protect yourself.
 
2013-02-26 10:31:02 PM  
pretty sure Eddie's failed to duck once or twice... nevermind the game is a little different since he played, and a shiat ton faster.
 
2013-02-26 10:34:43 PM  
I don't disagree with what he said in this instance... ducking a check in such a way is an amateur way out of a hit and dangerous to the oncoming player. Isn't getting this low as to take out the knees illegal as is?
 
2013-02-26 10:43:50 PM  

Vangor: I don't disagree with what he said in this instance... ducking a check in such a way is an amateur way out of a hit and dangerous to the oncoming player. Isn't getting this low as to take out the knees illegal as is?


But leaving your feet and aiming for the head is ok? Yakipov might have saved himself a trip to the quiet room and a month of migranes.
 
2013-02-26 10:45:09 PM  

Flappyhead: Throwing a good solid bodycheck is a skill.  Similarely avoiding a good solid bodycheck is a skill.  Joe Nieuwendyk was probably one of the best players I ever saw who could roll off an opposing players check and keep skating.  Bottom line, if you don't have to take the hit, don't take the hit.  If you do have to take the hit, know how to minimize the impact.


I've been trying to think of another Leaf as good at that...and the only ones I can think of are Dougie and Matts
 
2013-02-26 10:46:45 PM  
USA Hockey teaches officials to call that a penalty on the player avoiding the hit. I argued the point, and I will never make that call, but they want the player to hold their position and take the hit. I've been an official for more than a decade and never heard that until recently.
 
2013-02-26 10:48:35 PM  

Vangor: I don't disagree with what he said in this instance... ducking a check in such a way is an amateur way out of a hit and dangerous to the oncoming player. Isn't getting this low as to take out the knees illegal as is?


Well, for starters, the person laying the hit isn't given the same protection as the player on the puck. If the hitter takes an elbow to the head, that's the breaks... hitters take the risk of being injured, and if they want to mitigate the risk, the decision is easy - don't hit.

The risk of injury to a hitter boils down to the speed and intensity of the hit they intend to perform, and what can injure the hitter can CERTAINLY injure their target.

That said, ducking the hitter is basically a hip check. It's not illegal, anyway. If the player being hip checked isn't so intent on drilling somebody into the boards, they'll most likely roll over the hip and in this case, bang against the wall in the pads, instead of the head. By leading with his head and charging for the hit, the hip check means he's needs to be aware of changes in the situation and respond quickly... again, it's the hitter's responsibility. All he had to do was see the hit wasn't going to land and let up to avoid what happened.
 
2013-02-26 10:51:22 PM  

andychrist420: But leaving your feet and aiming for the head is ok? Yakipov might have saved himself a trip to the quiet room and a month of migranes.


Except Carcillo never left his feet until after falling over Yakupov, and the head aiming you are speaking of is a reactionary shift to connect with a ducking player. On the latter part, Carcillo should not have gone for this because he appears to lead with the elbow, but if he were aiming for the head without the duck he was far, far too late. If Yakupov otherwise accepted the check or tried to roll off this or evade, nothing would've appeared off about the hit; what Yakupov did was more dangerous to himself by placing elbows and such on level with his head and more dangerous to Carcillo by forcing him up and over into the boards.
 
2013-02-26 10:53:34 PM  

notsosilentbob: USA Hockey teaches officials to call that a penalty on the player avoiding the hit. I argued the point, and I will never make that call, but they want the player to hold their position and take the hit. I've been an official for more than a decade and never heard that until recently.


Are you farking kidding me?  You may as well have your players put giant targets on their sweaters and skate around yelling "I'm over here!  Hit me, hit me!!"
 
2013-02-26 10:54:22 PM  

LesserEvil: That said, ducking the hitter is basically a hip check.


No, a hip check is a different matter from ducking a check. Trying to go through the NHL site but it is atrocious for searching so no luck yet, but I am positive I have seen penalties on players getting too low, which Yakupov nearly was. He was close to hip check level, I will give, and I probably do disagree with the idea Yakupov should have gotten a penalty, but  the argument about ducking does stand.
 
2013-02-26 11:01:54 PM  

dj_bigbird: Isn't a player's first job to protect himself?


knowing how to take a hit is protecting yourself. being a little russian vagina and ducking a standard board check puts BOTH players at risk. Not to mention ending up on your ass like that keeps you out of the play longer then taking the hit like a man and staying on your feet.

Vangor: LesserEvil: That said, ducking the hitter is basically a hip check.


   No, a hip check is a different matter from ducking a check. Trying to go through the NHL site but it is atrocious for searching so no luck yet, but I am positive I have seen penalties on players getting too low, which Yakupov nearly was. He was close to hip check level, I will give, and I probably do disagree with the idea Yakupov should have gotten a penalty, but  the argument about ducking does stand.

Its called Clipping, and its illegial.
 
2013-02-26 11:04:19 PM  

Flappyhead: Are you farking kidding me?  You may as well have your players put giant targets on their sweaters and skate around yelling "I'm over here!  Hit me, hit me!!"


Nope, I was roundly criticized for saying that the responsibility for delivering a legal check was on the person actually delivering the check. Having a guy locked on that far in advance shouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
 
2013-02-26 11:04:40 PM  

Flappyhead: notsosilentbob: USA Hockey teaches officials to call that a penalty on the player avoiding the hit. I argued the point, and I will never make that call, but they want the player to hold their position and take the hit. I've been an official for more than a decade and never heard that until recently.

Are you farking kidding me?  You may as well have your players put giant targets on their sweaters and skate around yelling "I'm over here!  Hit me, hit me!!"


I've played contract hockey from a kid to college club level. Taking a hit along the boards  doesnt hurt. Contorting your body as a hit is coming trying to whip out of a hit, does.
 
2013-02-26 11:09:27 PM  

LemSkroob: Vangor: LesserEvil: That said, ducking the hitter is basically a hip check.

No, a hip check is a different matter from ducking a check. Trying to go through the NHL site but it is atrocious for searching so no luck yet, but I am positive I have seen penalties on players getting too low, which Yakupov nearly was. He was close to hip check level, I will give, and I probably do disagree with the idea Yakupov should have gotten a penalty, but the argument about ducking does stand.

Its called Clipping, and its illegial.


That is a fair bit more than a duck, you need to have your whole body south of the other guys hips...
 
2013-02-26 11:13:17 PM  

LemSkroob: Its called Clipping, and its illegial.


Thank you, I knew there was a penalty for this and couldn't remember what this was called because this is so rare and obvious.

sno man: That is a fair bit more than a duck, you need to have your whole body south of the other guys hips...


Yakupov is practically there in the video. What connects is at or below Carcillo's hips.
 
2013-02-26 11:19:57 PM  

LemSkroob: Flappyhead: notsosilentbob: USA Hockey teaches officials to call that a penalty on the player avoiding the hit. I argued the point, and I will never make that call, but they want the player to hold their position and take the hit. I've been an official for more than a decade and never heard that until recently.

Are you farking kidding me?  You may as well have your players put giant targets on their sweaters and skate around yelling "I'm over here!  Hit me, hit me!!"

I've played contract hockey from a kid to college club level. Taking a hit along the boards  doesnt hurt. Contorting your body as a hit is coming trying to whip out of a hit, does.


I refer you to my original post in this thread.
 
2013-02-26 11:20:43 PM  
Article won't load on phone but I want a "diving" penalty for any player that turns to the boards when about to get hit, resulting in a suspension for the hitter. That crap NEVER happened before.
 
2013-02-26 11:25:28 PM  
I think he explained it poorly. He's not saying don't avoid the hit, he's saying don't duck/low-bridge the hitter. Either step out of the way, or freeze up against the boards to marginalize its impact. But never duck and send the guy careening over your shoulder.
 
2013-02-26 11:25:40 PM  

Vangor: LemSkroob: Its called Clipping, and its illegial.

Thank you, I knew there was a penalty for this and couldn't remember what this was called because this is so rare and obvious.

sno man: That is a fair bit more than a duck, you need to have your whole body south of the other guys hips...

Yakupov is practically there in the video. What connects is at or below Carcillo's hips.


*fine, make me watch the video*
damn close to clipping, I notice there was no call, I'm going with the refs on this one, that was not a clip... that was a duck, he was getting out of the way more that getting into position for a hit. had Yakupov been skating toward v. standing in the bullseye that may well have been a clipping penalty...
 
2013-02-26 11:26:41 PM  

notsosilentbob: Flappyhead: Are you farking kidding me?  You may as well have your players put giant targets on their sweaters and skate around yelling "I'm over here!  Hit me, hit me!!"

Nope, I was roundly criticized for saying that the responsibility for delivering a legal check was on the person actually delivering the check. Having a guy locked on that far in advance shouldn't make a damn bit of difference.


Wow, that's nuclear grade stupid right there.  I mean yes, players have to be responsible for themselves on the ice but that reasoning leaves a LOT of grey area for opposing players to exploit.
 
2013-02-26 11:32:59 PM  

Vangor: LemSkroob: Its called Clipping, and its illegial.

Thank you, I knew there was a penalty for this and couldn't remember what this was called because this is so rare and obvious.

sno man: That is a fair bit more than a duck, you need to have your whole body south of the other guys hips...

Yakupov is practically there in the video. What connects is at or below Carcillo's hips.


See, if Carcillo were laying a decent hit where he's coming in at Yakupov's body/hip, then Yakupov's duck would put him right into the line of fire.

But since it's Dan Carcillo, and he's coming right at Yakupov's head (or at least shoulder area where there's a good chance of getting his head,) he goes flipping over Yakupov.

There's a point to be made that this sort of ducking IS dangerous to the guy laying the hit, but you're not going to find me anywhere near defending Carcillo.  If Carcillo's there a couple seconds earlier, Yakupov doesn't have time to duck and he hits him as he's passing, maybe breaking up the play.  It's not a LATE hit, as the puck hasn't gotten to the next guy, but it's late enough that Carcillo's only hitting for the sake of roughing up a guy.  Which is fine, but if the guy manages to rough you up in return, you don't get to complain about it.

/my knowledge of hockey is only pretty good, so correct me if I'm wrong.
 
2013-02-26 11:42:20 PM  

Dafatone: It's not a LATE hit, as the puck hasn't gotten to the next guy, but it's late enough that Carcillo's only hitting for the sake of roughing up a guy.  Which is fine, but if the guy manages to rough you up in return, you don't get to complain about it.

/my knowledge of hockey is only pretty good, so correct me if I'm wrong.


From my experience in hockey (about a decade but I did not continue on to any professional league), when you've decided to complete a hit, you will expend about as much energy stopping a check as you will following through. Proper technique means you will spend a moment more out of play, but you will remove the intended recipient for far longer from the play. Keeping players out of a player for a second or two with less wind and lack of momentum is what creates some great opportunities. Not saying Carcillo was doing anything but trying to rough up a guy, because f*ck the Blackhawks, but checking accomplishes much in hockey. We are not simply a rough and violent sport for the sake of fandom; our ratings will show you that.
 
2013-02-26 11:45:38 PM  
Dafatone: There's a point to be made that this sort of ducking IS dangerous to the guy laying the hit, but you're not going to find me anywhere near defending Carcillo.  If Carcillo's there a couple seconds earlier, Yakupov doesn't have time to duck and he hits him as he's passing, maybe breaking up the play.  It's not a LATE hit, as the puck hasn't gotten to the next guy, but it's late enough that Carcillo's only hitting for the sake of roughing up a guy.  Which is fine, but if the guy manages to rough you up in return, you don't get to complain about it.

/my knowledge of hockey is only pretty good, so correct me if I'm wrong.


No that also is a good point. There is a 'rule' regarding late hits... Counting 'steamboats', from the pass, "One steamboat, two steamboat..." if you can get significantly into the second 'steamboat' before the hit, it's a late hit. And an interference penalty.
 
2013-02-26 11:58:32 PM  

Vangor: Dafatone: It's not a LATE hit, as the puck hasn't gotten to the next guy, but it's late enough that Carcillo's only hitting for the sake of roughing up a guy.  Which is fine, but if the guy manages to rough you up in return, you don't get to complain about it.

/my knowledge of hockey is only pretty good, so correct me if I'm wrong.

From my experience in hockey (about a decade but I did not continue on to any professional league), when you've decided to complete a hit, you will expend about as much energy stopping a check as you will following through. Proper technique means you will spend a moment more out of play, but you will remove the intended recipient for far longer from the play. Keeping players out of a player for a second or two with less wind and lack of momentum is what creates some great opportunities. Not saying Carcillo was doing anything but trying to rough up a guy, because f*ck the Blackhawks, but checking accomplishes much in hockey. We are not simply a rough and violent sport for the sake of fandom; our ratings will show you that.


I'm actually all for trying to rough up a guy.  Hitting as a means of tiring your opponent / making them think twice, plus taking a guy out of the play for a few more seconds, is great.  But, like I said, if you go for a hit while a guy's able to react, you have to be aware that he's able to react.

Also, fark Dan Carcillo.  Seriously.
 
2013-02-26 11:59:54 PM  
No, when you are in the boards, you take the hit.  You do not duck.  That's how you break someone's neck.  Someone at het NHL level should know this.  And i agree 100%, it should be a penalty.
 
2013-02-27 12:00:59 AM  
Also, taxi drivers shouldn't duck a punch from punk ass star hockey players.
 
2013-02-27 12:13:24 AM  

notsosilentbob: USA Hockey teaches officials to call that a penalty on the player avoiding the hit. I argued the point, and I will never make that call, but they want the player to hold their position and take the hit. I've been an official for more than a decade and never heard that until recently.


Are you more or less likely to suffer a concussion or CTE-causing injury from trying to avoid the hit?  Because if so, with the concussion issue hitting the NHL as well as the NFL that's a potential lawsuit.
 
2013-02-27 12:13:39 AM  

kfh227: No, when you are in the boards, you take the hit.  You do not duck.  That's how you break someone's neck.  Someone at het NHL level should know this.  And i agree 100%, it should be a penalty.


If you are already actually in contact, or really close, like inch tops close, take the hit, a foot or more away, get out of the way or you will be injured.
 
2013-02-27 12:18:43 AM  
sno man,

No.  You take the hit.  Your logic is grossly flawed.
 
2013-02-27 12:25:10 AM  

kfh227: sno man,

No.  You take the hit.  Your logic is grossly flawed.


I'm sorry what obligation does the target have to protect the safety of the hitter? I'm not familiar with that rule...
 
2013-02-27 12:25:34 AM  
I think it's hard to penalize someone for their natural split-second reaction / instinct, which is to GTFO of the way of the large man trying to hurt you.
 
2013-02-27 12:49:58 AM  
www.hockeyforum.com

Mr. Hockey approves.
 
2013-02-27 12:52:14 AM  
Carcillo's elbow came up to keep his face from being the first point of contact with the glass. Looked like it was going to be a good shoulder-to-chest hit.

Is the hitee obligated to accept getting hit or is escaping contact not allowed? I've only played beer league.
 
2013-02-27 12:57:09 AM  
Waaaaaaah, you didn't let me hit you! Waaaaaaaaaaah!
 
2013-02-27 01:00:33 AM  

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Carcillo's elbow came up to keep his face from being the first point of contact with the glass. Looked like it was going to be a good shoulder-to-chest hit.

Is the hitee obligated to accept getting hit or is escaping contact not allowed? I've only played beer league.


no.

If the hitee is really close or already in contact with the boards/glass, getting hit wont hurt, all the energy goes straight into the boards...  Any a lot more than that, say a foot to two feet, he takes all of the hit and a hit into the boards.
 
2013-02-27 01:35:30 AM  

Dafatone: Also, fark Dan Carcillo.  Seriously.


As a Blackhawks fan, I agree 100%. The league would be better off without headhunters like him trying to injure people for a paycheck. Carcillo, Torres, Cooke, etc... run every one of those bastards out of the league.

UNC_Samurai: Are you more or less likely to suffer a concussion or CTE-causing injury from trying to avoid the hit?  Because if so, with the concussion issue hitting the NHL as well as the NFL that's a potential lawsuit.


That has nothing to do with this situation. The official position is that it is dirty to duck when someone tries to bumrush you along the boards, as they might go flying face first into the board, like we see in this case. It's ok for the other guy to hit you high, hard and late, just take your brain damage like a man.
 
2013-02-27 01:39:24 AM  
The next time Yakupov takes a knee to the face will be the last time he ducks a hit.  There's a reason you don't do that, and it's not for the other guy's safety.
 
2013-02-27 01:57:26 AM  

notsosilentbob: Flappyhead: Are you farking kidding me?  You may as well have your players put giant targets on their sweaters and skate around yelling "I'm over here!  Hit me, hit me!!"

Nope, I was roundly criticized for saying that the responsibility for delivering a legal check was on the person actually delivering the check. Having a guy locked on that far in advance shouldn't make a damn bit of difference.


Is it any different when it's a 12 year old who just got a little overambitious? I'm perfectly ok with it not being a penalty in the big leagues, but safety should be priority 1 in youth leagues.
 
2013-02-27 02:04:04 AM  

notsosilentbob: Dafatone: Also, fark Dan Carcillo.  Seriously.

As a Blackhawks fan, I agree 100%. The league would be better off without headhunters like him trying to injure people for a paycheck. Carcillo, Torres, Cooke, etc... run every one of those bastards out of the league.

UNC_Samurai: Are you more or less likely to suffer a concussion or CTE-causing injury from trying to avoid the hit?  Because if so, with the concussion issue hitting the NHL as well as the NFL that's a potential lawsuit.

That has nothing to do with this situation. The official position is that it is dirty to duck when someone tries to bumrush you along the boards, as they might go flying face first into the board, like we see in this case. It's ok for the other guy to hit you high, hard and late, just take your brain damage like a man.


Since basically being told he was on his last life, Cooke's actually behaved well (if you think the Karlsson play was clean.)  He's also a pretty good defensive player who has legitimate value.

That being said, in a just world, he would have been kicked out of the league years ago.
 
2013-02-27 04:37:27 AM  

notsosilentbob: USA Hockey teaches officials to call that a penalty on the player avoiding the hit. I argued the point, and I will never make that call, but they want the player to hold their position and take the hit. I've been an official for more than a decade and never heard that until recently.


...that ruling is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Get Chris Nowinski on that, stat.
 
2013-02-27 05:15:52 AM  

Dafatone: notsosilentbob: Dafatone: Also, fark Dan Carcillo.  Seriously.

As a Blackhawks fan, I agree 100%. The league would be better off without headhunters like him trying to injure people for a paycheck. Carcillo, Torres, Cooke, etc... run every one of those bastards out of the league.

UNC_Samurai: Are you more or less likely to suffer a concussion or CTE-causing injury from trying to avoid the hit?  Because if so, with the concussion issue hitting the NHL as well as the NFL that's a potential lawsuit.

That has nothing to do with this situation. The official position is that it is dirty to duck when someone tries to bumrush you along the boards, as they might go flying face first into the board, like we see in this case. It's ok for the other guy to hit you high, hard and late, just take your brain damage like a man.

Since basically being told he was on his last life, Cooke's actually behaved well (if you think the Karlsson play was clean.)  He's also a pretty good defensive player who has legitimate value.

That being said, in a just world, he would have been kicked out of the league years ago.


I agree that Cooke is a vastly less detestable player than he was several years ago. Seeing his improvement makes me wonder if all of the guys known for headhunting and dirty play could clean up and do similarly well - if it's true, it makes the rest of them even worse in hindsight.
 
2013-02-27 07:19:14 AM  

Alexei Novikov: I agree that Cooke is a vastly less detestable player than he was several years ago. Seeing his improvement makes me wonder if all of the guys known for headhunting and dirty play could clean up and do similarly well - if it's true, it makes the rest of them even worse in hindsight.


Some, but not all. Cooke always had a little bit of talent and was useful for more than just being a pest or a one-man wrecking crew. A lot of pests can score - think of Claude Lemieux or Sean Avery before he went full-retard. Darcy Tucker. Matthew Barnaby. Steve Downie nowadays. But teams want that edge. Or they do when it's not causing problems (see Avery again). Take away the intimidation of one of them potentially cheap-shotting you and you're left with a fairly average 3rd liner with a little bit of sandpaper and some ancillary scoring. Most of their value is gone.
 
2013-02-27 08:08:21 AM  
It seems like people are having a hard time differentiating between stepping out of the guy's way and putting yourself in a position that dramatically increases the chance of a life-altering injury.  If Yakupov simply side-stepped the hit, that would have been fine.  Diving down so the guy falls face-first into the boards, though, is dangerous.
 
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