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(WBIR Knoxville)   TN bill would allow college religious groups to pick (*cough* exclude *cough*) members   (wbir.com) divider line 152
    More: Asinine, religious denomination, state legislators, colleges, public university, college religious, TN bill  
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1262 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Feb 2013 at 10:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 09:42:59 AM
Last year, Vanderbilt University enforced a policy that requires university-recognized groups to allow any student to join and run for office, even if a student does not share that group's central beliefs.

Well there's your problem there.
 
2013-02-26 10:06:17 AM
DAMN IT!

Every time I get the required people needed to open No Homers club something always pops up and ruins my opportunity
 
2013-02-26 10:12:08 AM
Meanwhile, the fraternities and sororities at Vandy and UT can pick and choose their membership with impunity.  Hypocrites.
 
2013-02-26 10:13:38 AM
FTA: "Religious freedom in America means that every person has the right to his or her own personal, religious beliefs, and ACLU has long defended that right. But, religious freedom is not a free pass that people can use whenever they want to discriminate against others."

Goddamn it, ACLU, stop making so much sense.
 
2013-02-26 10:13:42 AM
The bible pounders need to get it out of their head that their religion does not allow them to be special.
 
2013-02-26 10:14:54 AM
Easy way around this.

Be a community group that happens to have students in it.

Oh, you want university (and by extension in many cases federal) money and preferential treatment?  Follow the rules then for university recognized student groups.
 
2013-02-26 10:15:37 AM
When rushing a religious group be sure to bring lot of money and lube.
 
2013-02-26 10:16:15 AM
1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2013-02-26 10:21:07 AM
let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?
 
2013-02-26 10:21:37 AM
Father Stephen Freeman, a priest adviser to UT's Orthodox Christian Fellowship, said he likes the measure. He feels current rules are restricting the freedoms of certain religious groups.

I am outraged we do not have the right to freely discriminate!  We are being discriminated against and that is wrong and should never be allowed!
 
2013-02-26 10:22:44 AM

mysticcat: Meanwhile, the fraternities and sororities at Vandy and UT can pick and choose their membership with impunity.  Hypocrites.


and, from my understanding, Christianity is a pretty important selling point for a pledge rushing a number of Vandy sororities. My wife's roommate used to tell her she was praying for her soul every time she went out drinking.
 
2013-02-26 10:22:46 AM

skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?


I think if the college gets federal funding then we're within our rights to ensure that officially sanctioned college groups don't discriminate
 
2013-02-26 10:23:06 AM
We mant to make sure everone in our group is a good fit. Bryce, Joshua, and Nathan all seem to be good fits. Reyquan, Lamarr, and Marvelous just...I don't know...there's sometrhing that makes me think they're not going to gel.

/personality, maybe
//but not because they're 'blah'
 
2013-02-26 10:24:50 AM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?

I think if the college gets federal funding then we're within our rights to ensure that officially sanctioned college groups don't discriminate


I think the whole fungibility of money comes into there. No way to prove that federal funds went to the discriminatory group etc, etc.

I can't imagine why a college would allow a group which receives college funding to discriminate. I also can't imagine why a Jew or an atheist or a Flying Spaghetti Monsterer would want to join a Christian group so there's that too
 
2013-02-26 10:25:40 AM

kumanoki: We mant to make sure everone in our group is a good fit. Bryce, Joshua, and Nathan all seem to be good fits. Reyquan, Lamarr, and Marvelous just...I don't know...there's sometrhing that makes me think they're not going to gel.

/personality, maybe
//but not because they're 'blah'


I'm sorry but if your name is Marvelous, not getting into a student group is gonna be the least of your troubles in life.
 
2013-02-26 10:28:07 AM

skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?

I think if the college gets federal funding then we're within our rights to ensure that officially sanctioned college groups don't discriminate

I think the whole fungibility of money comes into there. No way to prove that federal funds went to the discriminatory group etc, etc.

I can't imagine why a college would allow a group which receives college funding to discriminate. I also can't imagine why a Jew or an atheist or a Flying Spaghetti Monsterer would want to join a Christian group so there's that too


Its not so much the group itself getting funding, but the college gets funding and the college is in charge of these student groups, so if it wants to keep getting funding it should probably keep the groups that its in charge of from discriminating. If they want to form a private group that discriminates, whatever, but its pretty ridiculous that federal funds would go to a school that allows official student groups to discriminate at all.
 
2013-02-26 10:31:19 AM

kid_icarus: Last year, Vanderbilt University enforced a policy that requires university-recognized groups to allow any student to join and run for office, even if a student does not share that group's central beliefs.

Well there's your problem there.


The U.S. Supreme Court already decided this issue in the Dale vs. Boy Scouts case; independent organizations are free to discriminate agaisnt people who don't match up with their expressed values.  But the universities have the right to set rules for the orgnaizations they recognize, and if they don't want to recognize organizations that discriminate, well, that's the universities' expressed value.

The groups that want to discriminate can take their case to the univeristies and convince them why discrimination is a good idea, OR operate without university recognition.
 
2013-02-26 10:31:33 AM

skullkrusher: mysticcat: Meanwhile, the fraternities and sororities at Vandy and UT can pick and choose their membership with impunity.  Hypocrites.

and, from my understanding, Christianity is a pretty important selling point for a pledge rushing a number of Vandy sororities. My wife's roommate used to tell her she was praying for her soul every time she went out drinking.


I certainly hope you responded with the fact that Christ's first miracle was to spike the punch at a wedding.
 
2013-02-26 10:33:15 AM
The ACLU will oppose this right up until religious students take over a campus atheist groups and demand more university $$ to bring in religious speakers.
 
2013-02-26 10:33:45 AM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?

I think if the college gets federal funding then we're within our rights to ensure that officially sanctioned college groups don't discriminate

I think the whole fungibility of money comes into there. No way to prove that federal funds went to the discriminatory group etc, etc.

I can't imagine why a college would allow a group which receives college funding to discriminate. I also can't imagine why a Jew or an atheist or a Flying Spaghetti Monsterer would want to join a Christian group so there's that too

Its not so much the group itself getting funding, but the college gets funding and the college is in charge of these student groups, so if it wants to keep getting funding it should probably keep the groups that its in charge of from discriminating. If they want to form a private group that discriminates, whatever, but its pretty ridiculous that federal funds would go to a school that allows official student groups to discriminate at all.


meh, I don't see anything wrong with a gay group or a Christian group of a Jewish group or whatever wanting to limit membership to similar people in order to provide an environment for discussion without fear of reproach or outside disruption. I just think it's a problem if the school gives such a group money as it is unfair to other students. If the group isn't funded by the school then it is necessarily not funded by federal grants to the university. I don't see an issue.
Even if it were funded by the school receiving federal money, it would be like the argument that federal grants to planned parenthood indirectly fund abortions since it allows them to free up resources from elsewhere. I don't think it flies.

That said, a law requiring colleges to allow this is horseshiat
 
2013-02-26 10:34:17 AM
Father Stephen Freeman, a priest adviser to UT's Orthodox Christian Fellowship, said he likes the measure. He feels current rules are restricting the freedoms of certain religious groups."Rules of political correctness, frequently have good intentions, but they usually result in less freedom and in an atmosphere that's intolerable," Freeman said.


OK, so what he's saying is that by not being allowed to join a college religious group, you are actually "more free", is that correct?

Hey Freeman... You DO realize that nobody wants to join your sky-fairy club unless they're an actual believer, right?
 
2013-02-26 10:34:49 AM

Karac: skullkrusher: mysticcat: Meanwhile, the fraternities and sororities at Vandy and UT can pick and choose their membership with impunity.  Hypocrites.

and, from my understanding, Christianity is a pretty important selling point for a pledge rushing a number of Vandy sororities. My wife's roommate used to tell her she was praying for her soul every time she went out drinking.

I certainly hope you responded with the fact that Christ's first miracle was to spike the punch at a wedding.


nah, I was safely nestled in New England dealing with old money northern blue bloods. I had little interaction with the old money southern blue bloods
 
2013-02-26 10:37:54 AM

skullkrusher: can't imagine why a college would allow a group which receives college funding to discriminate. I also can't imagine why a Jew or an atheist or a Flying Spaghetti Monsterer would want to join a Christian group so there's that too


When I was at the University of South Carolina, the only ultimate Frisbee league was run by the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and you had to be a member to play.

And before someone comes back at me with 'well, why didn't the rest of you just form your own league' - there were a limited number of large, open, grassy fields on campus; and the times they weren't being used by the university's teams were already reserved by the FCA for one thing or another.
 
2013-02-26 10:40:24 AM

skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?

I think if the college gets federal funding then we're within our rights to ensure that officially sanctioned college groups don't discriminate

I think the whole fungibility of money comes into there. No way to prove that federal funds went to the discriminatory group etc, etc.

I can't imagine why a college would allow a group which receives college funding to discriminate. I also can't imagine why a Jew or an atheist or a Flying Spaghetti Monsterer would want to join a Christian group so there's that too

Its not so much the group itself getting funding, but the college gets funding and the college is in charge of these student groups, so if it wants to keep getting funding it should probably keep the groups that its in charge of from discriminating. If they want to form a private group that discriminates, whatever, but its pretty ridiculous that federal funds would go to a school that allows official student groups to discriminate at all.

meh, I don't see anything wrong with a gay group or a Christian group of a Jewish group or whatever wanting to limit membership to similar people in order to provide an environment for discussion without fear of reproach or outside disruption. I just think it's a problem if the school gives such a group money as it is unfair to other students. If the group isn't funded by the school then it is necessarily not funded by federal grants to the university. I don't see an issue.
Even if it were funded by the school receiving federal money, it would be like the argument that federal grants to planned parenthood indirectly fund abortions since it allows them to free up resources from elsewhere. I don't think it flies.

That said, a law requiring colleges to allow this is horseshiat


If the group wasn't getting funding from the school then why would they even bother being a student group in the first place? Why not be a private organization and discriminate against whoever they want without trying to change the law?
 
2013-02-26 10:42:25 AM

Karac: skullkrusher: can't imagine why a college would allow a group which receives college funding to discriminate. I also can't imagine why a Jew or an atheist or a Flying Spaghetti Monsterer would want to join a Christian group so there's that too

When I was at the University of South Carolina, the only ultimate Frisbee league was run by the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and you had to be a member to play.

And before someone comes back at me with 'well, why didn't the rest of you just form your own league' - there were a limited number of large, open, grassy fields on campus; and the times they weren't being used by the university's teams were already reserved by the FCA for one thing or another.


sounds like something that can be resolved with some administrative petitioning
 
2013-02-26 10:43:37 AM

CPennypacker: If the group wasn't getting funding from the school then why would they even bother being a student group in the first place? Why not be a private organization and discriminate against whoever they want without trying to change the law?


There are plenty of student groups which operate from donations and membership fees. They are often supplemented from the college's student life budget but it certainly isn't unheard of.

I don't know. I've already said this law is stupid. Twice.
 
2013-02-26 10:43:37 AM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?

I think

If the college gets federal public funding then we're within our rights to ensure that officially sanctioned college groups don't discriminate

FTFY why should it only be federal money?
 
2013-02-26 10:45:12 AM

skullkrusher: CPennypacker: If the group wasn't getting funding from the school then why would they even bother being a student group in the first place? Why not be a private organization and discriminate against whoever they want without trying to change the law?

There are plenty of student groups which operate from donations and membership fees. They are often supplemented from the college's student life budget but it certainly isn't unheard of.

I don't know. I've already said this law is stupid. Twice.


FINE
 
2013-02-26 10:45:55 AM

skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?


I agree but they should also a College exercising this albeit legal religious discrimination, should not be entitled to Federal funding/research grants.  Vanderbilt University does receive this type of Federal funding.  So either cancel the funding or end the discrimination.
 
2013-02-26 10:46:37 AM
I see my point was already made.
 
2013-02-26 10:47:20 AM
Funny how the same folks who wanted the government to stay out of the business of private organizations when it was Bob Jones wanting to keep banning interracial dating or the Boy Scouts and gays have no problem trying to force private institutions to change their practices now.
 
2013-02-26 10:48:42 AM

Captain Dan: The ACLU will oppose this right up until religious students take over a campus atheist groups and demand more university $$ to bring in religious speakers.


wat
 
2013-02-26 10:50:12 AM

mrshowrules: I see my point was already made.


and disagreed with ;)
 
2013-02-26 10:50:50 AM

rynthetyn: Funny how the same folks who wanted the government to stay out of the business of private organizations when it was Bob Jones wanting to keep banning interracial dating or the Boy Scouts and gays have no problem trying to force private institutions to change their practices now.


have you gotten a list of names and cross referenced them?
 
2013-02-26 10:51:18 AM

mrshowrules: skullkrusher: let's let colleges decide the rules for their student groups, eh?

I agree but they should also a College exercising this albeit legal religious discrimination, should not be entitled to Federal funding/research grants.  Vanderbilt University does receive this type of Federal funding.  So either cancel the funding or end the discrimination.


Telling groups that get money from all student fees that they aren't allowed to discriminate against some students (students who are paying the fees that fund the club) is not discrimination. Not to mention that it's already been found that neutral equal access policies are legal in  CLS v. Martinez.
 
2013-02-26 10:51:29 AM

Captain Dan: The ACLU will oppose this right up until religious students take over a campus atheist groups and demand more university $$ to bring in religious speakers.


The ACLU regularly defends the rights of religious people and organizations. The story in your head about them being some anti-religious goon squad is objectively incorrect.
 
2013-02-26 10:52:13 AM

skullkrusher: rynthetyn: Funny how the same folks who wanted the government to stay out of the business of private organizations when it was Bob Jones wanting to keep banning interracial dating or the Boy Scouts and gays have no problem trying to force private institutions to change their practices now.

have you gotten a list of names and cross referenced them?


It's the same religious right groups and you know it.
 
2013-02-26 10:53:01 AM
Because Jesus only got 12 guys to follow him after forming an officially-sanctioned Religious Group under Roman Law IV.xcm.III, and no one ever told Christians they could pray in the comfort of their own homes, and god doesn't want Methodists' prayers mixing with Presbyterians' (or heaven forbid those filthy Baha'i), and if you don't catch religion in college you're doomed to atheism forever, and it's not like such groups hold elections where any member can vote (meaning 3 Muslims won't spoil the fun for 400 Biblebeaters), and there are any number of legal means for "curating" group membership.

Grow the fark up.

// we had a formal complaint lodged against my (non-religious) student group once or twice
// a few creative group decisions later (no sanctions), and we got to do things our way nice and legally
 
2013-02-26 10:55:19 AM

Captain Dan: The ACLU will oppose this right up until religious students take over a campus atheist groups and demand more university $$ to bring in religious speakers.


Is this what the voices in your head have told you?
 
2013-02-26 10:59:08 AM
If there's one thing I've learned about Christians, it's their open willingness to love their neighbors as themselves.
 
2013-02-26 11:03:38 AM

rynthetyn: skullkrusher: rynthetyn: Funny how the same folks who wanted the government to stay out of the business of private organizations when it was Bob Jones wanting to keep banning interracial dating or the Boy Scouts and gays have no problem trying to force private institutions to change their practices now.

have you gotten a list of names and cross referenced them?

It's the same religious right groups and you know it.


hehe
 
2013-02-26 11:06:38 AM
All student organizations should be able to discriminate in the selection of their membership.  The whole point of a student organization is to group together like-minded individuals who share common interests.  That necessarily involves discriminating against those who do not share those interests.
 
2013-02-26 11:07:43 AM

SkinnyHead: All student organizations should be able to discriminate in the selection of their membership.  The whole point of a student organization is to group together like-minded individuals who share common interests.  That necessarily involves discriminating against those who do not share those interests.


that would be self-discrimination, skinny.
People choose not to join groups they don't have an interest in.
 
2013-02-26 11:10:10 AM
Freedom of Association. Do you understand it?
 
2013-02-26 11:12:17 AM
Last year, Vanderbilt University enforced a policy that requires university-recognized groups to allow any student to join and run for office, even if a student does not share that group's central beliefs.

I think it's pretty straightforward that a Christian or Jewish or Islamic student group should have the sovereignty to elect a Christian or Jew or Muslim to their own leadership. The university should either say that they don't recognize ANY religious organizations on campus, or they allow religious organizations to discriminate in their leadership.

If you take it to the extreme, what prevents anyone from just bringing enough of their friends to the next voter's meeting and getting elected president? Back when I was in college the vast majority of groups had between 10 and 20 students who attended regularly. All it would take is one fraternity who decides to do it for the lulz and you be a royal pain in the ass.
 
2013-02-26 11:14:38 AM

Fubini: Last year, Vanderbilt University enforced a policy that requires university-recognized groups to allow any student to join and run for office, even if a student does not share that group's central beliefs.

I think it's pretty straightforward that a Christian or Jewish or Islamic student group should have the sovereignty to elect a Christian or Jew or Muslim to their own leadership. The university should either say that they don't recognize ANY religious organizations on campus, or they allow religious organizations to discriminate in their leadership.

If you take it to the extreme, what prevents anyone from just bringing enough of their friends to the next voter's meeting and getting elected president? Back when I was in college the vast majority of groups had between 10 and 20 students who attended regularly. All it would take is one fraternity who decides to do it for the lulz and you be a royal pain in the ass.


too bad? I think lulz is a pretty good reason to join anything.
 
2013-02-26 11:17:36 AM

CPennypacker: Fubini: Last year, Vanderbilt University enforced a policy that requires university-recognized groups to allow any student to join and run for office, even if a student does not share that group's central beliefs.

I think it's pretty straightforward that a Christian or Jewish or Islamic student group should have the sovereignty to elect a Christian or Jew or Muslim to their own leadership. The university should either say that they don't recognize ANY religious organizations on campus, or they allow religious organizations to discriminate in their leadership.

If you take it to the extreme, what prevents anyone from just bringing enough of their friends to the next voter's meeting and getting elected president? Back when I was in college the vast majority of groups had between 10 and 20 students who attended regularly. All it would take is one fraternity who decides to do it for the lulz and you be a royal pain in the ass.

too bad? I think lulz is a pretty good reason to join anything.


www.kbuckmaster.co.uk

The perfect reason. The only reason.
 
2013-02-26 11:18:08 AM
I have a hard time having hard time with this. If a group is formed around a particular idea, I don't think that group should have to allow those who hold that idea in contempt into their group. For example, if I belong to a group who believes that there is no god, and an evangelical wants to join my group, hold office, and turn our meetings into prayer sessions, I want the right to tell him to go to the hell I probably don't believe in.
 
2013-02-26 11:20:04 AM

odinsposse: The ACLU regularly defends the rights of religious people and organizations...


I used religion only as one possible example.  It could be any other type of majority taking over a group intended for minorities.

For example: white students, annoyed by the campus's non-exclusion mandate, join a black student club en masse and take over all the leadership positions.

The ACLU will oppose this because they although they do occasionally defend the rights of religious minorities, they will never defend the right of a majority to silence a minority.
 
2013-02-26 11:21:24 AM

DeaH: I have a hard time having hard time with this. If a group is formed around a particular idea, I don't think that group should have to allow those who hold that idea in contempt into their group. For example, if I belong to a group who believes that there is no god, and an evangelical wants to join my group, hold office, and turn our meetings into prayer sessions, I want the right to tell him to go to the hell I probably don't believe in.


to an extent, yes. I don't find it particularly troubling for such a group to have protections against that sort of thing. The problem arises, imo, when you start a Christian chess club or Jewish intramural softball league and limit the membership to a certain group even though membership in that group isn't the point of the group itself

Not to mention Jewish intramural softball is probably Yahweh-awful.

/prove me wrong, Ike Davis. PLEASE.
 
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