I would sue that "Honor Court" for its next generation's worth of budgets.

Going to student court for rape justice is like going to an HOA with a housing discrimination complaint.  Call real cops. Get a real lawyer.

IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response. But that's apparently not good enough for you, because you want to call her "an activist with an axe to grind" so that people will shut her up.  Boy, you sure are angry at being called out on your own words.
And I stand by my original declaration of your Farky. That's incredibly sociopathic, and there's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.

Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.

IgG4: You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights.

You do when the school has a systematic history of covering up rapes and silencing rape victims.

You shiatstain.

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

which even if you don't believe her story means you STILL have to support her right to speak up about how the school handled her situation.

Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.

IgG4: Look if you get raped you go to the cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights.

Hmmm. Let's click the link here...

Some backstory: "I just woke up in my bed covered in blood and not knowing what happened," said Pino, now a junior at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. Today she still doesn't know who he was. She says she's suffered depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, but when she applied for medical withdrawal from her classes, Pino said the Academic Advising office told her she was "being lazy." Over the next several months, Pino heard similar tales from more than 60 other sexual assault survivors at UNC.

Yeah, I think you might want to check out the situation a little more before jumping to any more mansplaining conclusions.

IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.

We're on to your kind.

Data from a national violence against women survey suggested that one of the primary reasons why women didn't report rape to police was that they expected to be treated as if they did something wrong.  Another reason was they felt they wouldn't be believed.  Still another was that they felt they would be laughed at.  Add to that the treatment of women who were raped by police, and you farking morons with your "just contact police" bullshiat clearly haven't dealt with the police or prosecutors or media as a rape victim.  RAPEAPOLOGIST OL.

the rapist must be on the basketball team.  or football team or lax team.

Landen Gambill, a sophomore at UNC, was part of a group that filed a complaint in January with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging the university has routinely violated the rights of sexual assault survivors and failed to assist them in recovery after the reported abuse. Ten days after they filed their complaint, the graduate student attorney general sent a warning to Gambill that she may have violated the school's Honor Code, Jezebel reports.

yeah, I figured something like this was the real "honor code violation" before I even clicked. She's being punished for making the school look bad. Keeping the epidemic of campus rape hush-hush is the only priority, and the result is: surprise! More rape.

Kaenneth: I know that women lie. Had a girl accuse me of 'undressing her with my eyes' in high school. No clue who she was, and I wasn't, because I'm gay.

So one woman, one time, misread the way you were looking at her and accused you of doing something rude but legal and your conclusion from this one relatively harmless interaction with one member of the gender that makes up half the human race is "Women are psycho liars who should be locked in camps"?

Sounds legit.

IgG4: Theaetetus: Somacandra: Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.

[i.imgur.com image 582x615]

I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.

IgG4 is Orange, apparently. Shame, I farkied him as red 5.

Then how come you keep responding to me?

Because, Sparky, it's not about me thinking that you're an asshole. It's about tagging you as a predator for the good of the population.

See, the majority of men are not rapists. The majority of men should not be afraid of false accusations, and shouldn't be in fear that a clumsy advance should be considered sexual assault. Rather, rapists make up a small portion of the population, and they commit  multiple rapes - 6 on average. But they blend in to society, with half-jokes about rape victims asking for it, trying to diminish victims' credibility by saying that women who, say, failed to immediately contact the police* weren't legitimately raped.
And because it seems logical initially, and we non-rapists don't want to believe that there are such monsters in our midst, we say "yeah, that makes sense, she must have been lying." And the rational response from women is to fear that any man could be a rapist.

Well, shiat. Because of lies like that, both men and women are in fear. And that's wrong. Particularly when all we need to do is start identifying you. Because, if we get past our fear, you do stand out. You make jokes about rape. You demand that suspected rapists be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but simultaneously demand that rape victims be guilty of slander unless they prove the rapist committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Shiat, you identify yourselves, and, most importantly, you identify yourselves as being a  smallportion of the population. See, if we can tag you and count you, we can show that you're only about 10% or less of the population... and then no one, male or female, needs to live in fear. Because you'll be marked, and you'll be harmless.

There's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.

*which you claimed about this victim, but isn't necessarily true. See the links above.

Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.



I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.

Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me... Sounds like trouble to me.

Who even repeats themselves this way? Someone frothing with rage.

I wonder if he's one of those 'legitimate rape' Republican types....?

Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred). There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it. Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Because there's no evidence of a systemic problem that targets men with false accusations nor is there any substantive evidence that false rape accusations are a pervasive problem?

And no, telling someone that their attitudes towards women are creepy and wrong and that it probably means women don't trust them and may fear them is a whole hell of a lot different than implying that someone who's dressing in a certain way is inviting sexual assault.

Genevieve Marie:
We like to think people rally behind the victim, but actually? There's always loud crowds of douchebags making sure to say "Well, you know she could be a liar". As a result? There are a whole lot more women whose rapists were never prosecuted than there EVER IN A MILLION YEARS will be "Men whose lives were ruined because the community rallied behind a rape victim and didn't believe in his innocence."

not to mention the part of the crowd that always believes that the rape victim was a slut who deserved what happened to her...now THAT is a mindset I find truly disturbing.  as if someone could 'deserve' rape.  these are the same people who see rape as a bonus every time someone gets sent to jail on a pot smoking charge.

mind boggling.

ModernLuddite: ///"Rape" is what happens when you do anything a woman doesn't like.
////And if you think that attitude is sick, well, I think assuming every man you meet is a rapist is pretty sick.

"I think rape accusations are always false because all it is is someone doing something to a woman that she doesn't like sexually"- the implication being that women don't have any right to say no and have that respected.

And you know, if all the women you meet act like you might be a rapist, you might want to think long and hard about why that is.

/Pro tip: It's because you sound like a rapist.

For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

Lunchlady: She better pray to God she can prove the things she's claiming beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise she is going to get the pants sued off her.

I don't think so.

look - her deal is that she didn't like how the university handled her claims of rape.  they didn't even acknowledge her and assumed she was lying without checking out her story.  she followed their rules, their procedures...didn't get satisfaction.  so she went to the next level.  now she got their attention and the response was to punish her for it.

even if you don't like her.  even if you don't believe her story...you STILL have to support her right to say she doesn't agree with how the school handled her situation.

Voiceofreason01: Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody.

The article does not ever name the boyfriend, but you said: "If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university." Trying to fall back on the evidence in the article  now means that yes, you  were trying to white knight a rapist.
In fact, the very mention of "boyfriend" is white knighting the rapist  since you're the only person to suggest a boyfriend was involved.

I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

If you "might believe that University is covering things up" then why did you say that "theboyfriend might have a good libel case against... the university"? This is inconsistent: you say some boyfriend you dreamed up (because it's not mentioned anywhere in the article) has a libel case against the university, but admit that the university could be covering up a rape.

But yes, I'll be frank: you're not really white knighting a rapist, you're  attacking a rape victim to destroy her credibility, based on your imagined "boyfriend" and accusations against the university.

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.

I bet you can guess how I have you farkied, and in what color.

IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.

born_yesterday: Intro to Physics...the first day for the class that semester. The professor...gives his spiel...asks if there are any questions. A girl a few rows ahead of me raises her hand. The professor nods, and the girl stands up. In a shaky but determined voice she says, "Sir, I don't have a question. But the person sitting there is [fake name here], and he raped me." She stood there pointing at the guy.



Seriously, I'm the professor in that nightmare. Now I'm going to be afraid of dealing with that in my classes.

TiiiMMMaHHH: //Has 3 daughters. They will know they have all of the power. I'll make sure of that.

Make sure that they're empowered to say "Yes" too. I think that's actually one of the biggest contributors to rape culture- the idea that women are supposed to not want sex and men are supposed to work to change their minds.

I think everyone needs to be taught that sex should happen when there is a clear and enthusiastic yes from both parties. If there's not? No dice.

Genevieve Marie: And yet somehow, I never see "Well what if they're lying" brought up in home invasion stories.

Maybe it's because people get all stupid and emotional about sex crimes.

A man knocks over a few houses in a Mickey Mouse mask, gets busted, finds Jesus, and soon he gets a book deal for being the Rodent Robber and a lucrative career as a home security expert. People love that shiat.

Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

doglover: The only better thing would be people who publicly accuse one person of a crime being charged with that crime themselves if it turns out their accusation was known to be false to them.

Why would you bring that up in a thread about rape?

It implies that false rape charges are something that happens regularly, when all available evidence says that rape is not falsely reported more than any other crime. And yet somehow, I never see "Well what if they're lying" brought up in home invasion stories.

Theaetetus: In fact, the very mention of "boyfriend" is white knighting the rapist since you're the only person to suggest a boyfriend was involved.

Whoa there. I think s/he's talking about Laurent Gambill, who was just one of the filers:  "Gambill says she went to the Dean of Students Office to report an abusive ex-boyfriend for stalking in March 2012. She filed a complaint with the university's Honor Court system in the hopes that it'd be faster and less complicated than the legal system. But when the trial came in May, Gambill said the students and faculty on the Honor Court were focused on why she hadn't done anything to stop the alleged abuse. Gambill recounted one female student on the Honor Court who said that as a woman, she would have broken up with the alleged abuser after the first incident." That may be the confusion here. We're mixing up the different cases of survivors who all filed this complaint with the Feds.

atomicmask: Maybe she should wait for her "alleged" rapist to be convicted so its no longer an "Alleged" case and its a convicted case, other wise its just defaming the character of someone.

no, I don't think so.  look - she still has freedom of speech.  if she feels that the school was less than supportive of her claims of rape and has suggestions on how the administration can improve their handling of claims of rape then she SHOULD be heard.  if the administration blew off her concerns, and it looks like that might have been the case, then she's justified in doing something to grab their attention.

that's an action independent of the rape case.  she can actually keep that a separate issue and it sounds like that's what she did.  she hasn't publicly named her (accused) rapist.  she was upset with how the school reacted.

Hagenhatesyouall: Was the dude convicted of raping her?

If so, the school is farked.

If not, then that biatch needs to shut the fark up and suck up some slander charges.

Whup, got another sociopath! "If the rapist isn't convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accuser is guilty of lying and we don't need trials or anything."
Tag him and bag him.

IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me... Sounds like trouble to me.

Who even repeats themselves this way? Someone frothing with rage.

She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very resistant to providing any services for women who go through this.

Genevieve Marie:
I would agree with that, but would also caution you not to underestimate just how much that intersects with feminist issues, with race issues, with LGBT issues- with just about anything in that vein. The tendency to trust the status quo and to give powerful men, who are still for the most part wealthy, straight and white the benefit of the doubt regardless of the facts on record- it leads to some very, very ugly things.

i'm not insensitive to how this wave of 'mindless obedience to authority' impacts minority groups and sub-cultures in our society.  Basically if you're different in any way you're f*cked.  some groups have it worse than others and it can vary by degrees but...yeah.  step outta line even a little bit in our society and you can expect to get crushed for your efforts.

the response to protests is becoming more extreme.  not just in issues like this claim of rape and university cover up, but in general  look what happened to sandra fluke - she stood up for her rights and became target number one for conservatives everywhere.  but what was so amazing (and horrifying) about that situation was how mundane her testimony was...in fact it was almost bland.  that didn't stop Limbaugh from spending three days ripping her apart though, nor did it stop the flood of conservative bloggers from joining in with the vicious fun.  Fluke didn't do anything even remotely radical...and yet she became public enemy number one for every top conservative in this nation for damn near a week.  Imagine if she'd done something more than just give testimony before congress....what would the reaction have been then?

Thunderpipes: She was probably just hammered.

Except for the part where she wasn't drinking, you are probably right.  She was physically assaulted, and perhaps it was via hammer.

doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

Well, gosh, who's in the wrong in that situation? The sensationalist reporter who sees "state v. john smith" on the docket and immediately dives into his 1500 words about how John Smith is a monster who farks children with one hand while punching nuns with the other? Or the victim, covered in bruises, scratches, and jizz, who told police she didn't know who raped her, but it was a guy with description [x] (that they think happens to match John Smith)? Whom should we be incensed about, and whom should John Smith heroically attack?
Clearly that slut. And all others who may be just her.

doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

You supporting rapists isn't really surprising.  At all.

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes,

Wow, did you just pull the "I have Black friends" but replaced Black with raped?  Awesome.

doglover: Genevieve Marie: And yet somehow, I never see "Well what if they're lying" brought up in home invasion stories.

Maybe it's because people get all stupid and emotional about sex crimes.

A man knocks over a few houses in a Mickey Mouse mask, gets busted, finds Jesus, and soon he gets a book deal for being the Rodent Robber and a lucrative career as a home security expert. People love that shiat.

Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

Except that's not the case at all and never has been. We live in a shiatty culture: victims whose rapes don't match the cultural expectation (i.e. stranger jumping out of the bushes to rape a pretty young white woman) almost always get treated with skepticism and very rarely do they get justice. See: the reaction to any discussion of rape ever.

We like to think people rally behind the victim, but actually? There's always loud crowds of douchebags making sure to say "Well, you know she could be a liar". As a result? There are a whole lot more women whose rapists were never prosecuted than there EVER IN A MILLION YEARS will be "Men whose lives were ruined because the community rallied behind a rape victim and didn't believe in his innocence."

kendelrio: blueviking: Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

which even if you don't believe her story means you STILL have to support her right to speak up about how the school handled her situation.

Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.

Amen...I sincerely doubt those that go to the excuse of "well, if she didn't report it to the cops, obviously, it's a fake charge". Such a report and investigation is unpleasant, to say the very farkin' least, not to mention the cycle of blame, stigma and invasion that victim has to endure through a trial, if it ever makes it that far and department actually handles the charge correctly. I can't blame a victim for not going to the cops...it just reopens the wound over and over again.

But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.

Far easier...ever gone through a SANE exam after you've been abused and assaulted? Had to wait out months and months in an investigation with the police who question your every word, every action, reminding you that, heaven forbid you're lying, you'll be charged with a crime? The stigma from friends, family, and acquaintances, since certain police investigations and court records can become public knowledge? The doubt that comes with such scrutiny and the shame, even though is isn't a victim's fault, becomes crushing at times. Does this happen every time? No...but, if it's a situation of your word against his and there's no clear physical evidence at the time to indicate otherwise or he's a "respected" individual...far more often than you'd think.

Honor Court is far easier. It's no criminal charge, but, maybe she was of the mindset that she merely wanted to move on, and his harassment of her wasn't allowing that, and the university had a chance to step in and at least remove him, somewhat, from her life.

Voiceofreason01: The fact that she tried to resolve the problem in university honor court and not through the police is unusual.

Not so. The University Honor Court had jurisdiction over sexual assault and harassment claims and most students chose not to pursue criminal charges:
The only recourse for students who opted not to go to the court was to seek criminal charges, which most chose not to do, Manning said. That means most perpetrators would go completely unpunished.
The fact that she tried to resolve the problem this way and not through the police is entirelynormal, even if we disagree with the wisdom and result.

kendelrio: But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.

Do you have any idea what that process is like for a rape victim?

Genevieve Marie:
I talk about feminism on the internet. Nothing misogynistic ever surprises me.

there's some real knuckle draggers here on fark, that's for sure.

bigwf2007: Landen Gambill is the one who claims she is being threatened with an honor code violation for talking about her "rape.". She is the one who reported her boyfriend for an honor code violation for raping her. But I haven't found any explanation in any story I've read for why she didn't go to the police.

No, she isn't...  She was in an abusive relationship (sexually and verbally) with her boyfriend and when she ended the relationship he started to stalk her. She reported him for an honor code violation for stalking her. I'm guessing she just wanted it to stop and thought that was the easiest way to make it happen. For her efforts:

Link


When the relationship ended, she said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.

Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.

"The woman student said to me, 'Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would've broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn't?'" she said.

Gambill said the court used her history of clinical depression and her suicide attempt - which she said was a result of her abusive relationship - against her.

"They implied that I was emotionally unstable and couldn't be telling the truth because I had attempted suicide," she said.

Gambill said the court's ignorance reflected a complete lack of training.

But Judicial Programs Officer Erik Hunter said the Honor Court members and the student attorney general's staff received a full day of training after the interim procedures were implemented.

Weaver95: YIKES! if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?

In my experience working at large universities it is no different than business or government or some other large non-profit organization like a major church. There are powerful people who have interests to protect and they will go to any length necessary to preserve their slice of the pie. Of course Penn State is the paradigmatic example..but merely an example of a much larger trend.

SpdrJay: I, for one, welcome our new sociopathic rapist overlords!

Can I humbly suggest that the phrase "There's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society" become a new copypasta?

Ambivalence: Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.

There hasn't been a police investigation, no charges have been filed. All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it. This University "honor court" bullshiat isn't going to cut it. And if the University is guilty of anything it's not telling her that in the first place.

IgG4: Weaver95: IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.

Exactly.

IgG4: Weaver95: IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.

Exactly.

so why would you assume this woman is an activist?

lack of warmth: Ironic that a college in the Bible belt would punish a girl for going Old Testament on her rapist.

For the not well versed, Old Testament law stated that a woman was to scream when raped or make known about the attack or she could be guilty of fornication.  The rapist was to be put to death, but if she does not cry out and the act is discovered, she is to be his wife and he is not permitted to divorce her.  Found in Deuteronomy 22.(paraphrasing)

I am not saying we stick to those punishments, but definitely publicly make his shame known.  Dude can't get a girl to volunteer.

I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.

Genevieve Marie: heili skrimsli: That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?

No, just observing that the "I'm not like all those other women, I'm a cool woman" style is something I've seen before. I get it. I lived that for awhile actually. I don't look down on it.

I just also think you missed the point I was making. All women everywhere are taught to be aware of their surroundings. To the point where it becomes second nature. And yes, that can translate into slight feelings of discomfort when you have to share an enclosed space with someone whose body language makes you uncomfortable.

That's not screwed up. That's pretty standard for most women. Congratulations if you've managed to escape the social conditioning that makes you very aware of your space at all times, but not all of us have fared that way. It is not at all uncommon for women to make sure that anytime they're walking alone at night they have a set of boxes checked: cell phone out, keys gripped in a way that makes them suitable to use as a weapon if necessary, walking with purpose, checking around them and avoiding any spots where someone could hide.

Even if you think that's ridiculous- it's the stuff that's taught in any decent self-defense class. So what am I supposed to infer from your comments? Women should train in self-defense, but then feel silly about integrating those practices into their daily lives?

No, what I'm saying is that your level of paranoia and fear is unlike most women and that you're too damn myopic to see it. Your example of someone whose 'body language' made you feel uncomfortable was that they were male and in an elevator. If that's all it takes to make you feel uncomfortable, you're not describing how the majority of sane women act. It's akin to a white person describing 'body language that makes them feel uncomfortable' as 'alone in an elevator with a black person I don't know.'

That is unreasonably paranoid, and frankly your scenario is every bit as sexist as finding a black person in an elevator scary is racist.

Also, what the hell self-defense class did you go to that told you to walk down the street checking for people behind you by holding up your makeup mirror as you walk?

You're still trying to paint rather extreme fearful behavior as normal, and quite frankly you're no less full of shiat because you backpedaled and called 'being male and in an elevator' a body language that makes you uncomfortable.

I don't know, nor do I really care what the fark the rest of this thread is about.

But, "UNC no longer uses the Honor Court to handle sexual assault cases"  coupled with her right to file a complaint with the US Department of Education Office of Civil Rights pretty much should be the end of it.  But instead, they charged her with a violation of the school's kangaroo student run court system's honor code.

I'm guessing that UNC's lawyers are either having a heart attack over the stupidity of the school and the Honor Court.

In the future, schools need to stay out of adjudicating legal rights, especially criminal cases.

Genevieve Marie: heili skrimsli: That's all she ever does. Look at how she assumed I was a man with privilege because I said staring over your shoulder in a compact mirror to see if anyone's watching you is farking paranoid.

Sigh. I shouldn't have made that assumption. I should have accounted for the cookies from the dudebros phenomenon.

So you're claiming I am defective as a female because I am not living my life in constant fear of being attacked to the point where I'm afraid to be on an elevator with a guy I don't know, and I don't look over my shoulder with a makeup mirror while walking down the street?

I don't worry about these things. I don't wake up every morning and wonder if this is the day I get raped. I don't look at every man and think he might be the one who does it. I don't get nervous if I'm on the elevator alone and a man gets on. Being mugged registers far higher on my radar than OMG RAPE EVERYWHERE.

That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?

One of us is highly farked up, Gen, and it isn't me.

Callous: ou should be able to get passed out drunk at a party full of people and have no worries of getting raped because no one should take advantage of you. Reality doesn't work that way.

Rape, like mugging, is often a crime of opportunity. You don't have to be constantly vigilant, but there are circumstances where the risk is higher. And there are behaviors that increase that risk, therefore there are behaviors that will decrease the risk.

And your clothing could be a factor in fighting off an attack. Clothes that restrict movement will work against you, shoes that aren't easy to run in, etc. What I'm trying to tell you is to be aware of the circumstances everyday life puts you into and take steps to manage the risk.

I... really should stop being surprised that there are men who think these are HUGE REVELATIONS FOR WOMEN ZOMG. You mean some situations present higher risks than others? Oh man, thank you so much for that revelation. I've never considered that perspective before, no sirree. I should do something about  this?

Maybe I should start carrying around pepper spray, trying not to be caught alone in an elevator with a guy I don't know, avoiding parking garage stair wells, not walking too close to rows of cars in case someone is hiding between them, checking over my shoulder with a compact mirror if I'm worried someone is lurking behind me, making sure i never leave my drink unattended, having a friend walk me to my car at night, calling my boyfriend when I leave somewhere so he knows when I should be home. Oh! And when I was single, I probably should have been making sure a friend always knew where I was when I want on dates with someone. Oh and I should definitely find a buddy at parties and make sure we watch out for each other.

Oh wait. That's all the shiat I've done since I was a teenager. Like almost every other woman I know.

But please. Share a few more earth shattering revelations about how reality works and what it's like to be a woman.

evaned: I understand that you probably were using hyperbole and, if asked, would acknowledge the problem of prison sentences. At the same time, I bet you'd have jumped on someone who appeared to be semi-sincerely trying to downplay how bad of a crime rape is.

Yes, but do you not get why it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating to have the "Well men can face false accusations of rape, and that's horrible and wrong" discussion in every single thread about rape, like that's relevant to the topic at hand and a totally logical thing to bring up in discussion? It almost without fail gets brought up as the corollary to stories about women being raped. "Oh yes, but men can be ACCUSED of rape, so that's something that we need to take into consideration in this story."

It is always a derailing tactic. It always implies that the woman in question is lying. And it happens no matter who the victim is, who the perpetrator is or what the facts of the article are and it happens on stories where the accused has not even been charged with a crime. Where all the victim is doing is speaking about their experience.

So yes, forgive me for not taking the conversational thread about how terrible false accusations can be seriously, but I'm done allowing that to become the focus of a thread about rape. Next time a story from the innocence project crops up about a wrongful conviction, I will be all over that too, and I'll be more than happy to criticize the justice system and how the case was handled and I'll be completely on the side of the man whose rights were trampled on- I always am. (And generally, the man in question is a low income black man. Not a middle class university student.) That discussion will be totally relevant in that thread and I'll be happy to have it.

But in this one? A story about the systemic cover up by a university of the reported rapes of 65 students? Any "But what about the men" discussion in this thread is bullshiat and should be recognized as such.

stiletto_the_wise: Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.

What part of non-consensual ("you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested") don't you understand?!!

stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.

are you shiatting me

Moonlightfox: Innocent until proven guilty applies to men, too. Even if you think it shouldn't. No conviction? Going around calling them a rapist with the intent of ruining their lives is a crime.

She has not named him publicly. Read the article. Stop making assumptions that enable rapists.

And you know what? Even if a conviction hasn't been obtained, a rape victim still has the right to speak about their own experiences.

Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."

Voiceofreason01: Weaver95:
again, you miss the point.

What point? That UNC needs to encourage it's students that have been victims of crimes that they need to go to the police? Because if so I agree. If you're implying that there's some kind of coverup going on, then(as a completely uninvolved bystander) I'm going to need to see some evidence first before I'm on board with that interpretation of events.

lemme put it to you this way:

student: 'I was raped.  I reported it to the cops.  i'm in therapy and i'm having a bad day.  can you give me a break?  maybe cut me some slack?'
university: 'no.  and don't go telling anyone about it either or we'll destroy your reputation forever.  man up and walk it off.'
student: 'I wanna appeal.'
university president" 'appeal denied. now go walk it off, ya lazy slut'.
student: 'this is crappy customer service.'  [goes public]  LOOK AT THIS CRAPPY CUSTOMER SERVICE! I GET BETTER TREATMENT AT A MCDONALDS WINDOW!'
university: 'ok that's it - yer f*cked now biatch.'
Fedgov: 'well now, she might have a point.  that was some mighty bad customer service.'
internet goons: 'slutty biatch.  she probably WANTED to be raped.'
everyone else: [makes disgusted faces] 'assholes'.

Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

BarkingUnicorn:
Oh, it's much bigger than that.  She is only one of many who signed the complaint.  A pattern of covering up rape is alleged.  If proven, UNC can join Penn State.

Check some of my other posts in this thread. There's absolutely no real evidence of any kind presented in this article or the ones linked ITFA. This is absolutely the last situation that should be treated to a public forum such as an article in Huff Po or Jezabel. When the matter of rape is brought up tempers tend to run high which is why this is a matter for the police. It needs to be decided in a court of law not the court of public opinion. And so far it seems to have been handled VERY badly by pretty much everyone involved.

Theaetetus:
I'm telling you, there are predators in our midst....

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you? That's not funny. It's not pithy. It's not clever. You're defending women or anyone's honor by saying these things. It is not Justice. It is pretty stupid though, so you've got that going for you.

Voiceofreason01: Ambivalence: Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.

There hasn't been a police investigation, no charges have been filed. All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it. This University "honor court" bullshiat isn't going to cut it. And if the University is guilty of anything it's not telling her that in the first place.

Oh, it's much bigger than that.  She is only one of many who signed the complaint.  A pattern of covering up rape is alleged.  If proven, UNC can join Penn State.

doglover: Theaetetus: Well, gosh, who's in the wrong in that situation?

Everyone.

... Holy fark. My hypothetical had:
(i) lazy sensationalist reporter who's at least recklessly defaming someone; and
(ii) legitimate victim who doesn't have enough details to name specific person but does the best she can;
and you say that both are wrong?

That is seriously farked up.

http://www.fark.com/comments/7612030/82730778#c82730778" target="_blank" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7612030/82730778#c8 2730778">kendelrio: Genevieve Marie: kendelrio: But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.

Do you have any idea what that process is like for a rape victim?

Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes, I know the trauma. Also, have you ever lived in Hawaii?

But yet you can't understand how any victim would not want to relive that, over and over again? You can't understand the invasiveness of a SANE exam, the stigma, or that some jackoff attorney will be accusing you in court of being a slut, drunk, stupid, etc. or just outright lying when you've already been pulled through hell? The fear of the investigators botching the case and getting all your efforts to bring justice thrown out of court, and then having to know that your tormentor walked?

Wow.... If your sister and, ahem, "friends", had the courage to report, I sincerely hope their efforts weren't in vain and that the rapists got theirs. However, that rarely happens, another reason why sexual assault victims often don't report at all. It's too easy for the case to be thrown out, bogged down, the victim discredited, and no resolution be provided.

kendelrio: No, the point of that question is a friend of mine who I've lost touch woth and was a rape victum is named Genevieve an based on the vehemence with which this person comes into these threads with, I thought it may be her.

/not a rapist

No, I've never lived in Hawaii, and based on your opinions, I doubt we'd have been friends.

I'm passionate about these issues because I'm a woman, a feminist and oh yea: decent human beings get angry when they see a rape victim treated badly.

Theaetetus: FTFA: "It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend. "

The article is (very) light on details and contains no comment from the University. All we have is the Huffington Post(who's trying to stir up controversy to generate clicks) and a clearly outraged woman. The story is totally one sided and without more details there's no way to know what actually happened. The fact that she tried to resolve the problem in university honor court and not through the police is unusual. I'm not passing blame and I'm not in any way implying that she's lying. But there is no way to tell from the facts presented(few and distorted as they are) what actually happened. You and several others seem very quick to assign blame without really understanding what's going on.

Genevieve Marie: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally.

Which I noticed and it was the coolest thing all day. You could look up the man, but no one cares enough to do that. People just want a story. A good "I was raped and the government did nothing." gets people all fired up and angry at the police for not solving rapes.

The only better thing would be people who publicly accuse one person of a crime being charged with that crime themselves if it turns out their accusation was known to be false to them.

Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.

I have had women friends show me whistles, steak knives, and other implements they carry with them at all times to hopefully ward off a rapist.  I have sat in a room of 25 other college football players and heard them all agree that, if they were raping a girl anyway, they may as well sodomize her while they were at it.  And I have seen teenage girls dragged through the mud by the media when they dare go public against their accusers.

Thank you. Been pointing this out for years--I can sit and talk about how farked up it is that we train girls to look at men like it's a third-world country until the cows come home, but I'm seriously starting to think that rape culture is only going to get resolved when women start openly displaying weapons and treating injured wannabe rapists like marks of honor.

Gambill hadn't told her parents the "horrific and disturbing" truth, but she claims her student Honor Court representative did so without permission. While Gambill testified at her trial, she says her student rep gave her parents a confidential document she had written, which was intended to be used only as evidence in the Honor Court. "When I found out he had given it to them, I asked him why," Gambill said, recounting her outrage. She said that the student rep told her that he "thought they should know."

Whoa, that's a violation of federal privacy laws, isn't it?

Theaetetus:
Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody. I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.

Somacandra: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.

just skimmed that article.  YIKES!  if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?

bigwf2007: So has anyone actually been convicted of or even criminally charged with rape in this case?

the article doesn't make that point clear...but this isn't about the rape case.  this is about how the school handled allegations of rape, which was to apparently cover it up and pretend it doesn't happen on campus.

Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?
Voiceofreason01: All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it.

Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

Theaetetus: You're assuming he didn't know all about it and was spreading lies and misinformation anyway.

I try not to assert malice where incompetence alone can account for the problem. If there is malice afoot, then that's already out of my department.

Somacandra: IgG4: Look if you get raped you go to the cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights.

Hmmm. Let's click the link here...

Some backstory: "I just woke up in my bed covered in blood and not knowing what happened," said Pino, now a junior at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. Today she still doesn't know who he was. She says she's suffered depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, but when she applied for medical withdrawal from her classes, Pino said the Academic Advising office told her she was "being lazy." Over the next several months, Pino heard similar tales from more than 60 other sexual assault survivors at UNC.

Yeah, I think you might want to check out the situation a little more before jumping to any more mansplaining conclusions.

You're assuming he didn't know all about it and was spreading lies and misinformation anyway.

FTFA: the graduate student attorney general sent a warning to Gambill that she may have violated the school's Honor Code,

Uh oh, looks like we got a GED in Law over here. That kangaroo court will fold faster than Superman on laundry day. Send over a real writ of mandamus from a state judge and tell me how long it lasts.

/graduate student attorney general? give me a farking break

IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Get the police involved, and then she'll be hassled about speaking about a pending case, until after the trial.

well we can't have her rapist feeling uncomfortable now can we?  that would be inhuman!

So I'm sitting in Intro to Physics during my freshman year; it is the first day for the class that semester.  The professor introduces himself, and gives his spiel about the course curriculum.  He then asks if there are any questions.

A girl a few rows ahead of me raises her hand.  The professor nods, and the girl stands up.  In a shaky but determined voice she says, "Sir, I don't have a question.  But the person sitting there is [fake name here], and he raped me."  She stood there pointing at the guy.

Well the accused hurriedly excused himself from the room, and she sat back down.  The professor decided that would be a good note to close on.  Not sure if I saw either the accuser or accused after that day.

Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.

I didn't miss a point, I went exactly by your words.  I even quoted you.  You didn't say some cases.  You didn't say, "this is how some guys operate" until I called you on it.  You said (I'll quote again), "The guy knows what he's doing, and is the one doing the actual penetrating. This is done willingly. The sentence of yours that I've bolded is sort of ridiculous. The fact that this sort of thing happens at all, where both are drunk, is basically just planning ahead on the part of the guy."

One man in this thread who was raped described exactly the "ridiculous" situation you're referring to.  The other was coerced into oral sex and had to fight off penetrative sex in this manner.  Either a man can give consent while intoxicated or he cannot.  If he can, then the law is a double standard and doesn't protect men from rape from either sex.  If he cannot, then the female is equally a rapist, whoever is intoxicated.

You're doing what you argued against earlier, I'm pointing out your hypocrisy.

I also forgot to call you a pro-rapist, sociopath, or loon.

Pic any 2.

Abacus9:I see your point, and it can be a bit of a gray area. I'm just saying that in the case where they're both drunk, it's almost always the girl who didn't consent. The guy knows what he's doing, and is the one doing the actual penetrating. This is done willingly. The sentence of yours that I've bolded is sort of ridiculous. The fact that this sort of thing happens at all, where both are drunk, is basically just planning ahead on the part of the guy.

So, Genevieve, we have 2 accounts in this thread of men who were sexually coerced and, quite possibly, raped by women.  Now we have his person blaming the victim, implicitly calling them liars, and insinuating that not only did they deserve it but were, in fact, the instigators of their own assault.

Does this person receive the verbal pee pee smack, so to speak? He's attacked much harder than the person up thread that questioned the female victim about her social status, right?

People like this, people like you, and morons like Weaver are feeding the beliefs of loons that believe that every rape accusation is a lie. They see logical inconsistency, moral inconsistency, and name calling. They also, apparently, see statements making it appear at men cannot in fact be chemically coerced. Either smack him down or wallow in hypocrisy.

You, Gen, appear to be the best of a bad lot. Don't let it go to your head.

/out

ciberido: heili skrimsli: Genevieve Marie: Now be grateful that you had the privilege to be born in a world that doesn't demand the same of you and then blame you if you fail to be vigilant for a few hours and become a victim.

Hey dipshiat, I'm female and I still think you are batshiat insane paranoid if you're fearful of an elevator ride or you need to look over your shoulder in your makeup mirror just to make it down the street.

If you don't mind my asking a somewhat personal question, if you're female, why are you an intactivist?  That seems .... an odd choice of things for a woman to get so worked up about.

For what it's worth, as much as that particular poster grated on me in this thread, I don't see any contradiction in being a woman and being opposed to circumcision. I'm mildly against it. I don't believe it's incredibly cruel or damaging or anything along those lines, I just tend to be wary of any elective surgery performed on someone for cosmetic purposes before that person is old enough to consent to what's happening to them.

fredklein: Genevieve Marie: The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."

And what, exactly, is your solution?

The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.

Or we can understand that not all rapists are going to be convicted and face jail time and some of them are going to walk free because their victims would prefer to protect their own mental health and privacy and that while this is terribly unjust, it's how the real world works.

We can also acknowledge that just because a crime is not reported does not mean it never existed. It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose  to deal with what happened to them.

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but exactly how far are women expected to go to mitigate risk? And do you see why it's such an impossible standard to demand of women- the idea that all or most rapes can be prevented if only we're careful enough? And how irksome it is to hear some dude spout off something about risk management like he's just discovered the theory of relativity when what he's talking about is second nature to most women?

And also- do you not get how not ok it is to bring up in reference to a rape that's already happened. The implication there is always "Shame. If only she'd done something to prevent it from happening to her." That is ALWAYS shifting the burden back onto the woman in question- implying that in some small way, she's at least partially responsible for the choice someone else made to violate her body.

It's such an unkind thing to do.

I don't know if you ride motorcycles or not, but when I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course one thing they harped on is that every accident has a chain of events that leads up to it.  Break one link in the chain and the accident doesn't occur.  We were given the circumstances of several accidents and discussed what occurred and what could have been done differently to prevent it.  It wasn't about laying blame.  It was about learning from events and what can be done to prevent them.  It was about looking to the future.  It was about preventing someone else from having the same tragedy occur to them.  For instance, I had an instance where I was pulling up to an intersection where I had a green arrow to make a left turn.  That means I had the right of way and on coming traffic had a red light.  However I noticed that the driver of an on coming car didn't appear to be paying attention.  I think she was looking at her cell phone.  I stopped at the intersection and waited and sure enough she drove right through the red light.  Would it have been my fault if I had not looked at her and noticed she was distracted and made the turn and she hit me?  Hell no, not at all.  But because I learned that motorcycles getting hit while making left turns is one of the most common motorcycle involved accidents I was aware and didn't suffer the same tragedy many have before me.

I have the utmost sympathy for rape victims.  Two of my nieces were recently raped, they are 8 and 12 years old.  It is life changing for them and everyone around them.  Discussing the chain of events leading up to it and looking for ways to break that chain and spreading the knowledge gained is how we learn prevention.  Yes, some people will blame the victims.  They are douchebags that need to FO and die.  But don't think that everyone that discusses the the chain of events and points out ways to break it is laying any blame at the feet of the victim.  Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.  Like with the motorcyclescenario and the oncoming traffic.  Looking at the oncoming traffic to see if they are paying attention and are stopping for the red light seems like a very obvious thing to do.  However statistics indicate that many don't and get hit.

fredklein: Theaetetus: So you agree, then, that if someone is accused of rape, there should be an arrest, charges, and a trial and we'll see whom the jury believes more?

YES.

Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.

Genevieve Marie: Now be grateful that you had the privilege to be born in a world that doesn't demand the same of you and then blame you if you fail to be vigilant for a few hours and become a victim.

Hey dipshiat, I'm female and I still think you are batshiat insane paranoid if you're fearful of an elevator ride or you need to look over your shoulder in your makeup mirror just to make it down the street.

5monkeys: All of my friends who are woman do the same, or have other safety tricks.

I don't, and I have never actually met any woman in person who does the 'must have keys between fingers' and 'always keep cell phone out'. I look around when I'm out. I don't see it happening, either. The only place I have ever seen people even talk about how they always do these things is on the Internet. What you're describing does not match up with the reality I know.

Callous: Stop reading absolutes into everything everyone posts when they are discussing risk. Risk is a sliding scale and never absolute.

That's all she ever does. Look at how she assumed I was a man with privilege because I said staring over your shoulder in a compact mirror to see if anyone's watching you is farking paranoid.