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(Huffington Post)   Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 350
    More: Sick, Chapel Hill, honor code, sex crimes, Office of Civil Rights, Amherst College, art fair, U.S. Department of Education, graduate students  
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28397 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-25 06:14:34 PM  
32 votes:
I would sue that "Honor Court" for its next generation's worth of budgets.

Going to student court for rape justice is like going to an HOA with a housing discrimination complaint.  Call real cops. Get a real lawyer.
2013-02-25 10:19:39 PM  
22 votes:

IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.


She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response. But that's apparently not good enough for you, because you want to call her "an activist with an axe to grind" so that people will shut her up.  Boy, you sure are angry at being called out on your own words.
And I stand by my original declaration of your Farky. That's incredibly sociopathic, and there's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.
2013-02-25 10:35:32 PM  
12 votes:

Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?


Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.
2013-02-25 10:26:58 PM  
12 votes:

IgG4: You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights.


You do when the school has a systematic history of covering up rapes and silencing rape victims.

You shiatstain.
2013-02-25 10:53:36 PM  
9 votes:

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

which even if you don't believe her story means you STILL have to support her right to speak up about how the school handled her situation.


Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.
2013-02-25 10:24:29 PM  
9 votes:

IgG4: Look if you get raped you go to the cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights.


Hmmm. Let's click the link here...

Some backstory: "I just woke up in my bed covered in blood and not knowing what happened," said Pino, now a junior at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. Today she still doesn't know who he was. She says she's suffered depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, but when she applied for medical withdrawal from her classes, Pino said the Academic Advising office told her she was "being lazy." Over the next several months, Pino heard similar tales from more than 60 other sexual assault survivors at UNC.

Yeah, I think you might want to check out the situation a little more before jumping to any more mansplaining conclusions.
2013-02-25 09:41:08 PM  
8 votes:

IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.


Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
i1094.photobucket.com
We're on to your kind.
2013-02-25 11:10:31 PM  
7 votes:
Data from a national violence against women survey suggested that one of the primary reasons why women didn't report rape to police was that they expected to be treated as if they did something wrong.  Another reason was they felt they wouldn't be believed.  Still another was that they felt they would be laughed at.  Add to that the treatment of women who were raped by police, and you farking morons with your "just contact police" bullshiat clearly haven't dealt with the police or prosecutors or media as a rape victim.  RAPEAPOLOGIST OL.
2013-02-25 10:53:34 PM  
7 votes:
Sidenote to all of Fark's pro-rape white knights: You are aware that the only thing you're succeeding in is making yourselves look guilty of rape as well, right? I'm not going to say that you are rapists (obviously, most of you are just trolls), but that's what it looks like. That goes for every rape thread, by the way, not just this one.
2013-02-25 08:17:16 PM  
7 votes:
the rapist must be on the basketball team.  or football team or lax team.
2013-02-25 08:04:03 PM  
7 votes:
Landen Gambill, a sophomore at UNC, was part of a group that filed a complaint in January with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging the university has routinely violated the rights of sexual assault survivors and failed to assist them in recovery after the reported abuse. Ten days after they filed their complaint, the graduate student attorney general sent a warning to Gambill that she may have violated the school's Honor Code, Jezebel reports.

yeah, I figured something like this was the real "honor code violation" before I even clicked. She's being punished for making the school look bad. Keeping the epidemic of campus rape hush-hush is the only priority, and the result is: surprise! More rape.
2013-02-25 11:27:42 PM  
6 votes:

Kaenneth: I know that women lie. Had a girl accuse me of 'undressing her with my eyes' in high school. No clue who she was, and I wasn't, because I'm gay.


So one woman, one time, misread the way you were looking at her and accused you of doing something rude but legal and your conclusion from this one relatively harmless interaction with one member of the gender that makes up half the human race is "Women are psycho liars who should be locked in camps"?

Sounds legit.
2013-02-25 11:25:36 PM  
6 votes:

ModernLuddite: ///"Rape" is what happens when you do anything a woman doesn't like.


Frankly, if women cried rape every time they went to bed with an incompetent man, then 99% of men would be in jail for rape by now.  Rape is what happens when you do something a woman doesn't WANT.

////And if you think that attitude is sick, well, I think assuming every man you meet is a rapist is pretty sick.

It's not that women think every man is a rapist, per se.  We tend to think every man has the potential to be a rapist because it's impossible to tell the normal guys from the rapists until they're actually raping you.

//Agree to disagree.

You're kidding, right? Sorry, I don't think I'll ever be in a place where I think "Women cry rape for no reason and men are the aggrieved party in a rape trial" is a valid stance.
2013-02-25 10:55:58 PM  
6 votes:

IgG4: Theaetetus: Somacandra: Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.

[i.imgur.com image 582x615]

I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.

IgG4 is Orange, apparently. Shame, I farkied him as red 5.

Then how come you keep responding to me?


Because, Sparky, it's not about me thinking that you're an asshole. It's about tagging you as a predator for the good of the population.

See, the majority of men are not rapists. The majority of men should not be afraid of false accusations, and shouldn't be in fear that a clumsy advance should be considered sexual assault. Rather, rapists make up a small portion of the population, and they commit  multiple rapes - 6 on average. But they blend in to society, with half-jokes about rape victims asking for it, trying to diminish victims' credibility by saying that women who, say, failed to immediately contact the police* weren't legitimately raped.
And because it seems logical initially, and we non-rapists don't want to believe that there are such monsters in our midst, we say "yeah, that makes sense, she must have been lying." And the rational response from women is to fear that any man could be a rapist.

Well, shiat. Because of lies like that, both men and women are in fear. And that's wrong. Particularly when all we need to do is start identifying you. Because, if we get past our fear, you do stand out. You make jokes about rape. You demand that suspected rapists be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but simultaneously demand that rape victims be guilty of slander unless they prove the rapist committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Shiat, you identify yourselves, and, most importantly, you identify yourselves as being a  smallportion of the population. See, if we can tag you and count you, we can show that you're only about 10% or less of the population... and then no one, male or female, needs to live in fear. Because you'll be marked, and you'll be harmless.

There's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.

*which you claimed about this victim, but isn't necessarily true. See the links above.
2013-02-25 10:27:53 PM  
6 votes:

Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.


i.imgur.com

I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.
2013-02-25 10:22:14 PM  
6 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me... Sounds like trouble to me.

Who even repeats themselves this way? Someone frothing with rage.


I wonder if he's one of those 'legitimate rape' Republican types....?
2013-02-25 10:13:35 PM  
6 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.


Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.
2013-02-25 11:44:40 PM  
5 votes:

Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred). There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it. Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?


Because there's no evidence of a systemic problem that targets men with false accusations nor is there any substantive evidence that false rape accusations are a pervasive problem?

And no, telling someone that their attitudes towards women are creepy and wrong and that it probably means women don't trust them and may fear them is a whole hell of a lot different than implying that someone who's dressing in a certain way is inviting sexual assault.
2013-02-25 11:17:12 PM  
5 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
We like to think people rally behind the victim, but actually? There's always loud crowds of douchebags making sure to say "Well, you know she could be a liar". As a result? There are a whole lot more women whose rapists were never prosecuted than there EVER IN A MILLION YEARS will be "Men whose lives were ruined because the community rallied behind a rape victim and didn't believe in his innocence."

not to mention the part of the crowd that always believes that the rape victim was a slut who deserved what happened to her...now THAT is a mindset I find truly disturbing.  as if someone could 'deserve' rape.  these are the same people who see rape as a bonus every time someone gets sent to jail on a pot smoking charge.

mind boggling.
2013-02-25 11:11:32 PM  
5 votes:

Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.

I have had women friends show me whistles, steak knives, and other implements they carry with them at all times to hopefully ward off a rapist.  I have sat in a room of 25 other college football players and heard them all agree that, if they were raping a girl anyway, they may as well sodomize her while they were at it.  And I have seen teenage girls dragged through the mud by the media when they dare go public against their accusers.


You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape."  Just like no one had to tell me not to murder.  Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape.  There are criminals among us.  We need to do more to look after their mental health and to perhaps cure them of the diseases that destroy their ability to reason.  But men are not criminals, and they do not need to be taught how to have respect for others.   All men are not potential rapists, and they don't deserve to be treated like they are.
2013-02-25 11:04:39 PM  
5 votes:

ModernLuddite: ///"Rape" is what happens when you do anything a woman doesn't like.
////And if you think that attitude is sick, well, I think assuming every man you meet is a rapist is pretty sick.


"I think rape accusations are always false because all it is is someone doing something to a woman that she doesn't like sexually"- the implication being that women don't have any right to say no and have that respected.

And you know, if all the women you meet act like you might be a rapist, you might want to think long and hard about why that is.

/Pro tip: It's because you sound like a rapist.
2013-02-25 10:49:45 PM  
5 votes:
For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.
2013-02-25 10:48:03 PM  
5 votes:

Lunchlady: She better pray to God she can prove the things she's claiming beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise she is going to get the pants sued off her.


I don't think so.

look - her deal is that she didn't like how the university handled her claims of rape.  they didn't even acknowledge her and assumed she was lying without checking out her story.  she followed their rules, their procedures...didn't get satisfaction.  so she went to the next level.  now she got their attention and the response was to punish her for it.

even if you don't like her.  even if you don't believe her story...you STILL have to support her right to say she doesn't agree with how the school handled her situation.
2013-02-25 10:46:39 PM  
5 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody.


The article does not ever name the boyfriend, but you said: "If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university." Trying to fall back on the evidence in the article  now means that yes, you  were trying to white knight a rapist.
In fact, the very mention of "boyfriend" is white knighting the rapist  since you're the only person to suggest a boyfriend was involved.

I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

If you "might believe that University is covering things up" then why did you say that "theboyfriend might have a good libel case against... the university"? This is inconsistent: you say some boyfriend you dreamed up (because it's not mentioned anywhere in the article) has a libel case against the university, but admit that the university could be covering up a rape.

But yes, I'll be frank: you're not really white knighting a rapist, you're  attacking a rape victim to destroy her credibility, based on your imagined "boyfriend" and accusations against the university.

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.

I bet you can guess how I have you farkied, and in what color.
2013-02-25 10:40:34 PM  
5 votes:
In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.

I have had women friends show me whistles, steak knives, and other implements they carry with them at all times to hopefully ward off a rapist.  I have sat in a room of 25 other college football players and heard them all agree that, if they were raping a girl anyway, they may as well sodomize her while they were at it.  And I have seen teenage girls dragged through the mud by the media when they dare go public against their accusers.
2013-02-25 10:29:55 PM  
5 votes:
Maybe she should wait for her "alleged" rapist to be convicted so its no longer an "Alleged" case and its a convicted case, other wise its just defaming the character of someone.
2013-02-25 10:20:45 PM  
5 votes:
IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.
2013-02-25 10:19:25 PM  
5 votes:

born_yesterday: Intro to Physics...the first day for the class that semester. The professor...gives his spiel...asks if there are any questions. A girl a few rows ahead of me raises her hand. The professor nods, and the girl stands up. In a shaky but determined voice she says, "Sir, I don't have a question. But the person sitting there is [fake name here], and he raped me." She stood there pointing at the guy.



i.imgur.com

Seriously, I'm the professor in that nightmare. Now I'm going to be afraid of dealing with that in my classes.
2013-02-25 10:03:11 PM  
5 votes:
Ironic that a college in the Bible belt would punish a girl for going Old Testament on her rapist.

For the not well versed, Old Testament law stated that a woman was to scream when raped or make known about the attack or she could be guilty of fornication.  The rapist was to be put to death, but if she does not cry out and the act is discovered, she is to be his wife and he is not permitted to divorce her.  Found in Deuteronomy 22.(paraphrasing)

I am not saying we stick to those punishments, but definitely publicly make his shame known.  Dude can't get a girl to volunteer.
2013-02-26 12:29:03 AM  
4 votes:

Dokushin: You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape."  Just like no one had to tell me not to murder.  Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape.  There are criminals among us.  We need to do more to look after their mental health and to perhaps cure them of the diseases that destroy their ability to reason.  But men are not criminals, and they do not need to be taught how to have respect for others.



I guess you haven't been paying attention to the news or in Fark threads, because there sure is a hell of a lot of men being "trained" that it IS ok to rape.  When you live in a society in which men have been brought up constantly bombarded with messages that some rape isn't "true rape," isn't "rape rape", isn't "legitimate rape," et cetera, or that "she deserved it because..." you can BET people worry that men need to be told to the contrary.

And I'm so very, very sorry that you find this offensive.  I wasn't aware that your precious little feelings were more important than, say, NOT RAPING PEOPLE.  Perhaps if I hunt long enough, I can find a suitably small violin to express my concern.
2013-02-25 11:41:44 PM  
4 votes:

Genevieve Marie: ModernLuddite: ///"Rape" is what happens when you do anything a woman doesn't like.
////And if you think that attitude is sick, well, I think assuming every man you meet is a rapist is pretty sick.

"I think rape accusations are always false because all it is is someone doing something to a woman that she doesn't like sexually"- the implication being that women don't have any right to say no and have that respected.

And you know, if all the women you meet act like you might be a rapist, you might want to think long and hard about why that is.

/Pro tip: It's because you sound like a rapist.



This is the moral equivalent of saying "if all the men you meet want to rape you, you might want to think long and hard about why that is."  (because you dress like you want them to).

There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred).  There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it.  Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?
2013-02-25 11:19:04 PM  
4 votes:
Holy shiat, it's amazing how few people seem capable of RTFA and following the plot.
2013-02-25 11:18:19 PM  
4 votes:

TiiiMMMaHHH: //Has 3 daughters. They will know they have all of the power. I'll make sure of that.


Make sure that they're empowered to say "Yes" too. I think that's actually one of the biggest contributors to rape culture- the idea that women are supposed to not want sex and men are supposed to work to change their minds.

I think everyone needs to be taught that sex should happen when there is a clear and enthusiastic yes from both parties. If there's not? No dice.
2013-02-25 11:13:41 PM  
4 votes:

Dokushin: Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.

I have had women friends show me whistles, steak knives, and other implements they carry with them at all times to hopefully ward off a rapist.  I have sat in a room of 25 other college football players and heard them all agree that, if they were raping a girl anyway, they may as well sodomize her while they were at it.  And I have seen teenage girls dragged through the mud by the media when they dare go public against their accusers.

You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape."  Just like no one had to tell me not to murder.  Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape.  There are criminals among us.  We need to do more to look after their mental health and to perhaps cure them of the diseases that destroy their ability to reason.  But men are not criminals, and they do not need to be taught how to have respect for others.   All men are not potential rapists, and they don't deserve to be treated like they are.


It's like you've never spent 5 minutes with a group of young men.
2013-02-25 11:11:26 PM  
4 votes:

Genevieve Marie: And yet somehow, I never see "Well what if they're lying" brought up in home invasion stories.


Maybe it's because people get all stupid and emotional about sex crimes.

A man knocks over a few houses in a Mickey Mouse mask, gets busted, finds Jesus, and soon he gets a book deal for being the Rodent Robber and a lucrative career as a home security expert. People love that shiat.

Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.
2013-02-25 11:03:40 PM  
4 votes:

Theaetetus: Voiceofreason01: Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody.

The article does not ever name the boyfriend, but you said: "If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university." Trying to fall back on the evidence in the article  now means that yes, you  were trying to white knight a rapist.
In fact, the very mention of "boyfriend" is white knighting the rapist  since you're the only person to suggest a boyfriend was involved.

I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

If you "might believe that University is covering things up" then why did you say that "theboyfriend might have a good libel case against... the university"? This is inconsistent: you say some boyfriend you dreamed up (because it's not mentioned anywhere in the article) has a libel case against the university, but admit that the university could be covering up a rape.

But yes, I'll be frank: you're not really white knighting a rapist, you're  attacking a rape victim to destroy her credibility, based on your imagined "boyfriend" and accusations against the university.

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.

I bet you can guess how I have you farkied, and in what color.


Dude, (dudette?), really? You really think this random stranger is attacking a rape victim, with the driven purpose of destroying her credibility, because he's a sociopath? My god you're a complete loon.
2013-02-25 11:03:27 PM  
4 votes:

Dokushin: Kazan: White Southern Men like Rape. More at 11

All (race) (region) (gender) are (criminals).

I'm honestly confused; are you being ironic, or...?


He's being Leftist. It's not individuals that are guilty of crimes, it's entire classes of individuals, and in our time white, heterosexual and male is the guiltiest class of all. Remember the Duke lacrosse team scandal? Long before the allegations were considered in a court of law, the "enlightened" liberal faculty at the university signed their names to a document suggesting that the accused were guilty BECAUSE SEXISM, BECAUSE RACISM etc. Even after the allegations were discredited, in fact, some of them still stuck to their narrative -- "because even if this particular accusation was a lie, okay, it was still the truth in a larger sense, right, because it's an immutable fact of nature that white men rape black women, y'know?" In other words, even though it was a lie, it was still true.

What you must always keep in mind is that the actual innocence and/or guilt of any given individual in the United States accused of a crime is of trivial importance in comparison to the degree to which their story reinforces the Narrative and its concomitant hierarchy of oppression. White fratboys accused of rape against white women are automatically guilty, because the fratboys outrank the women in the hierarchy of victimhood; but a black man accused of rape against a white woman is probably the object of a racist witchhunt. As Lenin would say, it's all a matter of "who-whom", i.e. who is doing what to whom. There is no objective standard of justice.
2013-02-25 10:59:56 PM  
4 votes:

doglover: The only better thing would be people who publicly accuse one person of a crime being charged with that crime themselves if it turns out their accusation was known to be false to them.


Why would you bring that up in a thread about rape?

It implies that false rape charges are something that happens regularly, when all available evidence says that rape is not falsely reported more than any other crime. And yet somehow, I never see "Well what if they're lying" brought up in home invasion stories.
2013-02-25 10:54:02 PM  
4 votes:
2013-02-25 10:49:10 PM  
4 votes:

Somacandra: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.


You're getting victims confused, by the way; that account is from someone else who brought the case against UNC. The subject of this article was raped by her boyfriend, who's referenced in that article as also having stalked her. I'm not sure which was first; I haven't really kept up with the chronology of it all. Though I do remember hearing something along the lines of their reaction to his stalking her being to move him to a better dorm. If anyone's wondering why there hasn't been a conviction, well...it's pretty clear there are people standing in the way of that.

/current UNC student
//you would not believe the reaction this got today
2013-02-25 10:34:08 PM  
4 votes:

atomicmask: Maybe she should wait for her "alleged" rapist to be convicted so its no longer an "Alleged" case and its a convicted case, other wise its just defaming the character of someone.


no, I don't think so.  look - she still has freedom of speech.  if she feels that the school was less than supportive of her claims of rape and has suggestions on how the administration can improve their handling of claims of rape then she SHOULD be heard.  if the administration blew off her concerns, and it looks like that might have been the case, then she's justified in doing something to grab their attention.

that's an action independent of the rape case.  she can actually keep that a separate issue and it sounds like that's what she did.  she hasn't publicly named her (accused) rapist.  she was upset with how the school reacted.
2013-02-25 10:32:31 PM  
4 votes:
But say the phrase "rape culture" and everyone yells at you.
2013-02-25 10:30:31 PM  
4 votes:

Hagenhatesyouall: Was the dude convicted of raping her?

If so, the school is farked.

If not, then that biatch needs to shut the fark up and suck up some slander charges.


Whup, got another sociopath! "If the rapist isn't convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accuser is guilty of lying and we don't need trials or anything."
Tag him and bag him.
2013-02-25 10:29:02 PM  
4 votes:
Was the dude convicted of raping her?

If so, the school is farked.

If not, then that biatch needs to shut the fark up and suck up some slander charges.
2013-02-25 10:24:04 PM  
4 votes:
Has he been convicted?  I'm not a GED holding law type, but I imagine that plays into the harassment angle just a little bit.
2013-02-25 10:21:24 PM  
4 votes:

IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me... Sounds like trouble to me.


Who even repeats themselves this way? Someone frothing with rage.
2013-02-25 08:10:08 PM  
4 votes:
She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.
2013-02-25 07:27:02 PM  
4 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I would sue that "Honor Court" for its next generation's worth of budgets.

Going to student court for rape justice is like going to an HOA with a housing discrimination complaint.  Call real cops. Get a real lawyer.


Done in one.
2013-02-26 01:18:47 AM  
3 votes:

Genevieve Marie: stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.

You think someone who is drunk or drugged being coerced into sex by someone they've told no isn't rape?


I didn't say that. What I said was that it's virtually un-provable and WHEN EXAMINED by a third party, indistinguishable from consensual sex. How do you prove it without having to take one side's word for it?

Another exercise: What if both woke up hung over, both believing they did not consent to the other side's advances? Did they rape each other?
2013-02-26 01:06:40 AM  
3 votes:
Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very resistant to providing any services for women who go through this.
2013-02-26 12:32:04 AM  
3 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
I would agree with that, but would also caution you not to underestimate just how much that intersects with feminist issues, with race issues, with LGBT issues- with just about anything in that vein. The tendency to trust the status quo and to give powerful men, who are still for the most part wealthy, straight and white the benefit of the doubt regardless of the facts on record- it leads to some very, very ugly things.

i'm not insensitive to how this wave of 'mindless obedience to authority' impacts minority groups and sub-cultures in our society.  Basically if you're different in any way you're f*cked.  some groups have it worse than others and it can vary by degrees but...yeah.  step outta line even a little bit in our society and you can expect to get crushed for your efforts.

the response to protests is becoming more extreme.  not just in issues like this claim of rape and university cover up, but in general  look what happened to sandra fluke - she stood up for her rights and became target number one for conservatives everywhere.  but what was so amazing (and horrifying) about that situation was how mundane her testimony was...in fact it was almost bland.  that didn't stop Limbaugh from spending three days ripping her apart though, nor did it stop the flood of conservative bloggers from joining in with the vicious fun.  Fluke didn't do anything even remotely radical...and yet she became public enemy number one for every top conservative in this nation for damn near a week.  Imagine if she'd done something more than just give testimony before congress....what would the reaction have been then?
2013-02-26 12:13:38 AM  
3 votes:

HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order


I grew up in liberal parts of California and Oregon, but I played sports so I was able to mix with other young men outside student government and model united nations, and I knew way back in junior high that boys will do whatever they can get away with.
I could tell you story after story of how men rape women, abuse them, and yet since they go to school together or work together, the situation is hushed up or covered up.  The women know their lives and relationships will be ruined if they go public, and since the men know this too they suffer no consequences.
Man, grow up and find out what happens in the real world.
2013-02-25 11:40:55 PM  
3 votes:
So, when do we stop reinforcing this "It's the woman's fault" crap.  I'm kinda tired of punishing rape victims for speaking out.

Anyone?

//I've seen it first hand where a rape victim was browbeaten, by her family (not mine), into accepting it was her fault for "dressing like a slut".
2013-02-25 11:33:01 PM  
3 votes:
My prediction: If it hasn't already happened, it won't be long before the internet thinks to itself, "And just who are the individuals running the UNC Student Attorney General's office?"  

Approximately five seconds after that, they will come across the staff page for the UNC SAG, along with the roster of current members.

Not long after that, at least a few of the people on that list are probably going to come to the sudden realization that the only way you get national press as a "student attorney general" is if you have severely farked up, at which point they'll start desperately trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.
2013-02-25 11:25:28 PM  
3 votes:

Thunderpipes: She was probably just hammered.


Except for the part where she wasn't drinking, you are probably right.  She was physically assaulted, and perhaps it was via hammer.
2013-02-25 11:17:05 PM  
3 votes:

doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.


Well, gosh, who's in the wrong in that situation? The sensationalist reporter who sees "state v. john smith" on the docket and immediately dives into his 1500 words about how John Smith is a monster who farks children with one hand while punching nuns with the other? Or the victim, covered in bruises, scratches, and jizz, who told police she didn't know who raped her, but it was a guy with description [x] (that they think happens to match John Smith)? Whom should we be incensed about, and whom should John Smith heroically attack?
Clearly that slut. And all others who may be just her.
2013-02-25 11:15:07 PM  
3 votes:

doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.


You supporting rapists isn't really surprising.  At all.

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes,


Wow, did you just pull the "I have Black friends" but replaced Black with raped?  Awesome.
2013-02-25 11:14:34 PM  
3 votes:

doglover: Genevieve Marie: And yet somehow, I never see "Well what if they're lying" brought up in home invasion stories.

Maybe it's because people get all stupid and emotional about sex crimes.

A man knocks over a few houses in a Mickey Mouse mask, gets busted, finds Jesus, and soon he gets a book deal for being the Rodent Robber and a lucrative career as a home security expert. People love that shiat.

Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.


Except that's not the case at all and never has been. We live in a shiatty culture: victims whose rapes don't match the cultural expectation (i.e. stranger jumping out of the bushes to rape a pretty young white woman) almost always get treated with skepticism and very rarely do they get justice. See: the reaction to any discussion of rape ever.

We like to think people rally behind the victim, but actually? There's always loud crowds of douchebags making sure to say "Well, you know she could be a liar". As a result? There are a whole lot more women whose rapists were never prosecuted than there EVER IN A MILLION YEARS will be "Men whose lives were ruined because the community rallied behind a rape victim and didn't believe in his innocence."
2013-02-25 11:13:41 PM  
3 votes:

kendelrio: blueviking: Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

which even if you don't believe her story means you STILL have to support her right to speak up about how the school handled her situation.

Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.

Amen...I sincerely doubt those that go to the excuse of "well, if she didn't report it to the cops, obviously, it's a fake charge". Such a report and investigation is unpleasant, to say the very farkin' least, not to mention the cycle of blame, stigma and invasion that victim has to endure through a trial, if it ever makes it that far and department actually handles the charge correctly. I can't blame a victim for not going to the cops...it just reopens the wound over and over again.

But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.


Far easier...ever gone through a SANE exam after you've been abused and assaulted? Had to wait out months and months in an investigation with the police who question your every word, every action, reminding you that, heaven forbid you're lying, you'll be charged with a crime? The stigma from friends, family, and acquaintances, since certain police investigations and court records can become public knowledge? The doubt that comes with such scrutiny and the shame, even though is isn't a victim's fault, becomes crushing at times. Does this happen every time? No...but, if it's a situation of your word against his and there's no clear physical evidence at the time to indicate otherwise or he's a "respected" individual...far more often than you'd think.

Honor Court is far easier. It's no criminal charge, but, maybe she was of the mindset that she merely wanted to move on, and his harassment of her wasn't allowing that, and the university had a chance to step in and at least remove him, somewhat, from her life.
2013-02-25 11:09:36 PM  
3 votes:

Voiceofreason01: The fact that she tried to resolve the problem in university honor court and not through the police is unusual.


Not so. The University Honor Court had jurisdiction over sexual assault and harassment claims and most students chose not to pursue criminal charges:
The only recourse for students who opted not to go to the court was to seek criminal charges, which most chose not to do, Manning said. That means most perpetrators would go completely unpunished.
The fact that she tried to resolve the problem this way and not through the police is entirelynormal, even if we disagree with the wisdom and result.
2013-02-25 11:06:59 PM  
3 votes:

kendelrio: But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.


Do you have any idea what that process is like for a rape victim?
2013-02-25 11:02:17 PM  
3 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
I talk about feminism on the internet. Nothing misogynistic ever surprises me.

there's some real knuckle draggers here on fark, that's for sure.
2013-02-25 11:01:30 PM  
3 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

which even if you don't believe her story means you STILL have to support her right to speak up about how the school handled her situation.

Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.



Replace "rape" with "theft" or "murder".

Any discussion of lesser crimes (seriously - rape is the worst of the worst) that automatically grants the benefit of the doubt to the accuser would be dismissed out of hand because, seriously, accusing someone of stealing something isn't really enough.


//I also went to university.
///"Rape" is what happens when you do anything a woman doesn't like.
////And if you think that attitude is sick, well, I think assuming every man you meet is a rapist is pretty sick.
//Agree to disagree.
2013-02-25 10:59:17 PM  
3 votes:

bigwf2007: Landen Gambill is the one who claims she is being threatened with an honor code violation for talking about her "rape.". She is the one who reported her boyfriend for an honor code violation for raping her. But I haven't found any explanation in any story I've read for why she didn't go to the police.


No, she isn't...  She was in an abusive relationship (sexually and verbally) with her boyfriend and when she ended the relationship he started to stalk her. She reported him for an honor code violation for stalking her. I'm guessing she just wanted it to stop and thought that was the easiest way to make it happen. For her efforts:

Link


When the relationship ended, she said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.

Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.

"The woman student said to me, 'Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would've broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn't?'" she said.

Gambill said the court used her history of clinical depression and her suicide attempt - which she said was a result of her abusive relationship - against her.

"They implied that I was emotionally unstable and couldn't be telling the truth because I had attempted suicide," she said.

Gambill said the court's ignorance reflected a complete lack of training.

But Judicial Programs Officer Erik Hunter said the Honor Court members and the student attorney general's staff received a full day of training after the interim procedures were implemented.
2013-02-25 10:48:07 PM  
3 votes:
Goofus goes public with accusations of a crime.

Gallant calls the police and provides evidentiary support.
2013-02-25 10:41:05 PM  
3 votes:
OK, after reading more about this story from local media, I'm really confused. She claims her boyfriend raped her, but instead of going to police she filed an honor code violation against him, and he was found not guilty.


I'm still not clear why she didn't go to the police.
2013-02-25 10:41:05 PM  
3 votes:

Weaver95: YIKES! if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?


In my experience working at large universities it is no different than business or government or some other large non-profit organization like a major church. There are powerful people who have interests to protect and they will go to any length necessary to preserve their slice of the pie. Of course Penn State is the paradigmatic example..but merely an example of a much larger trend.
2013-02-25 10:36:12 PM  
3 votes:

SpdrJay: I, for one, welcome our new sociopathic rapist overlords!


Can I humbly suggest that the phrase "There's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society" become a new copypasta?
2013-02-25 10:32:31 PM  
3 votes:
So has anyone actually been convicted of or even criminally charged with rape in this case?
2013-02-25 10:32:21 PM  
3 votes:

gadian: Has he been convicted?  I'm not a GED holding law type, but I imagine that plays into the harassment angle just a little bit.


But she didn't name him either.  I can't imagine there is only one rapey guy in all of Chapel Hill, or she was refering to him with a terrible pseudonym.

/I can't refer to anyone by name, but let me tell you about a night with Smarry Jackhouse.
2013-02-25 10:31:24 PM  
3 votes:
<blockquote>Landen Gambill, a sophomore at UNC, was part of a group that filed a complaint in January with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging the university has routinely violated the rights of sexual assault survivors and failed to assist them in recovery after the reported abuse. Ten days after they filed their complaint, the graduate student attorney general sent a warning to Gambill that she may have violated the school's Honor Code</blockquote>

Yeah, apparently they violated section 6.b, which outlaws making the school look bad.
Seriously, what kind of moronic bullsh*t is this?  If the school thought they were gonna look bad for not supporting sexual assault victims, just wait what happens when people see them actively attacking them while nonsensically trying to protect the poor rapist's feelings.
2013-02-25 10:29:11 PM  
3 votes:

Ambivalence: Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.


There hasn't been a police investigation, no charges have been filed. All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it. This University "honor court" bullshiat isn't going to cut it. And if the University is guilty of anything it's not telling her that in the first place.
2013-02-25 10:29:06 PM  
3 votes:
So, the guy was charged with a crime?
2013-02-25 10:28:24 PM  
3 votes:

IgG4: Weaver95: IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.

Exactly.


IgG4: Weaver95: IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.

Exactly.


so why would you assume this woman is an activist?
2013-02-25 10:12:49 PM  
3 votes:

lack of warmth: Ironic that a college in the Bible belt would punish a girl for going Old Testament on her rapist.

For the not well versed, Old Testament law stated that a woman was to scream when raped or make known about the attack or she could be guilty of fornication.  The rapist was to be put to death, but if she does not cry out and the act is discovered, she is to be his wife and he is not permitted to divorce her.  Found in Deuteronomy 22.(paraphrasing)

I am not saying we stick to those punishments, but definitely publicly make his shame known.  Dude can't get a girl to volunteer.


I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.
2013-02-26 04:17:58 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: However? NO ONE HAS AN INALIENABLE RIGHT TO A GOOD REPUTATION.


You could have avoided this entire debate if you would equally apply that standard to the psycho false-rape-accuser chick.

/See what I did there?
2013-02-26 03:48:41 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but exactly how far are women expected to go to mitigate risk? And do you see why it's such an impossible standard to demand of women- the idea that all or most rapes can be prevented if only we're careful enough? And how irksome it is to hear some dude spout off something about risk management like he's just discovered the theory of relativity when what he's talking about is second nature to most women?


You know, I'm beginning to feel either quite sorry for you or quite repelled by you, and I'm not sure which it is.

Your life, as you described it, is one of utterly irrational fear, universal suspicion and crippling paranoia. If you really are afraid to get into lifts with strangers (why? most rapes are committed by acquaintances) and constantly check behind you with a small mirror, then I feel sympathy. You urgently need a sense of proportion, and possibly some therapy to get it.

However, I've notice on this and other rape threads, that you always try to twist things so it's about you. Oh yes, it starts with some token sympathy for someone who has been raped, or who has claimed to have been raped, but it always seems to get back to how it makes you feel, how it makes you lead your life, back to you, you, you.

Well, guess what. It's not all about you, and I find the idea of hijacking the horrible experiences of others and of claiming victim status for yourself really quite unpleasant. Women, and rape victims, deserve a lot better than that.
2013-02-26 02:50:24 PM  
2 votes:

udhq: The point is, this article is about a woman who was raped, and the institution responsible for her safety is trying to intimidate her into silence.


No.  It's about a woman who claims she was raped, but has refused to go to the police with her "mountain of evidence", and wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.
2013-02-26 01:16:36 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: heili skrimsli: That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?

No, just observing that the "I'm not like all those other women, I'm a cool woman" style is something I've seen before. I get it. I lived that for awhile actually. I don't look down on it.

I just also think you missed the point I was making. All women everywhere are taught to be aware of their surroundings. To the point where it becomes second nature. And yes, that can translate into slight feelings of discomfort when you have to share an enclosed space with someone whose body language makes you uncomfortable.

That's not screwed up. That's pretty standard for most women. Congratulations if you've managed to escape the social conditioning that makes you very aware of your space at all times, but not all of us have fared that way. It is not at all uncommon for women to make sure that anytime they're walking alone at night they have a set of boxes checked: cell phone out, keys gripped in a way that makes them suitable to use as a weapon if necessary, walking with purpose, checking around them and avoiding any spots where someone could hide.

Even if you think that's ridiculous- it's the stuff that's taught in any decent self-defense class. So what am I supposed to infer from your comments? Women should train in self-defense, but then feel silly about integrating those practices into their daily lives?


No, what I'm saying is that your level of paranoia and fear is unlike most women and that you're too damn myopic to see it. Your example of someone whose 'body language' made you feel uncomfortable was that they were male and in an elevator. If that's all it takes to make you feel uncomfortable, you're not describing how the majority of sane women act. It's akin to a white person describing 'body language that makes them feel uncomfortable' as 'alone in an elevator with a black person I don't know.'

That is unreasonably paranoid, and frankly your scenario is every bit as sexist as finding a black person in an elevator scary is racist.

Also, what the hell self-defense class did you go to that told you to walk down the street checking for people behind you by holding up your makeup mirror as you walk?

You're still trying to paint rather extreme fearful behavior as normal, and quite frankly you're no less full of shiat because you backpedaled and called 'being male and in an elevator' a body language that makes you uncomfortable.
2013-02-26 12:16:41 PM  
2 votes:
I don't know, nor do I really care what the fark the rest of this thread is about.

But, "UNC no longer uses the Honor Court to handle sexual assault cases"  coupled with her right to file a complaint with the US Department of Education Office of Civil Rights pretty much should be the end of it.  But instead, they charged her with a violation of the school's kangaroo student run court system's honor code.

I'm guessing that UNC's lawyers are either having a heart attack over the stupidity of the school and the Honor Court.

In the future, schools need to stay out of adjudicating legal rights, especially criminal cases.
2013-02-26 11:57:05 AM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: heili skrimsli: That's all she ever does. Look at how she assumed I was a man with privilege because I said staring over your shoulder in a compact mirror to see if anyone's watching you is farking paranoid.

Sigh. I shouldn't have made that assumption. I should have accounted for the cookies from the dudebros phenomenon.


So you're claiming I am defective as a female because I am not living my life in constant fear of being attacked to the point where I'm afraid to be on an elevator with a guy I don't know, and I don't look over my shoulder with a makeup mirror while walking down the street?

I don't worry about these things. I don't wake up every morning and wonder if this is the day I get raped. I don't look at every man and think he might be the one who does it. I don't get nervous if I'm on the elevator alone and a man gets on. Being mugged registers far higher on my radar than OMG RAPE EVERYWHERE.

That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?

One of us is highly farked up, Gen, and it isn't me.
2013-02-26 11:54:07 AM  
2 votes:

Theaetetus: Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.



Because their best case estimate of the potential evidence is a stack of facebook spats with her boyfriend that didn't even convince the student court?
2013-02-26 11:48:17 AM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: liam76: I am not arguing semantics. Your intitial statements were at best misleading and at worst outright lies.

I am willing to concede that I employed a bit of hyperbole in trying to get you guys to understand why reporting rape is a difficult thing to do. I don't think the way I did it was particularly misleading though.


Great that you will concede what is very apparent.

But if it was just hyperbole, why did it take some 3 posts for you to back off on the claim?

That kind of dishonesty hinders any discussion.


Genevieve Marie: We're still arguing pretty trivial things. The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."

That really shouldn't be tough to understand


That isn't difficult to understand, but it is not at all what you first said.
2013-02-26 11:45:36 AM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Tat'dGreaser: Weaver95: all I gotta say is that the same names keep cropping up in these discussions...the same people supporting some pretty horrific things, all holding (generally) the same points of view on life, politics and the law.

Oh really? That's pretty f*cked up that they are this consistently f*cked in the head that people would recognize their logins.

I just can't wrap my head around supporting anything that blames a rape victim.

they are remarkably consistent in their statements and beliefs.  it's always the victim's fault, rape is something they don't take seriously.  And as I said waaaaaaaaay up thread, in some cases these are the same people who consider rape to be a 'bonus round' punishment for people sent to jail for pot smoking or protesting wall street.

Ugh, that one kills me. What's fun is people who cling to due process arguments even when they're talking about privileges instead of rights- and who then don't see any problem with someone losing even their basic right to bodily integrity if they were convicted of anything, even minor offenses- as long as that person is someone they don't like.


Nobody ever said that.

You are just saying that men should be relocated and punished because a chick says so. You don't want people to have rights. That is sick.

Just put all men  in a cattle car and off the shower?

The only horrific stuff here is you and your crew wanting to eliminate all rights for men. That guy paid to go to college, and forcing him to move and having him branded a rapist is just asking for a lawsuit. The girl sounds like a complete crazy woman with no proof at all. Get over it.
2013-02-26 09:14:10 AM  
2 votes:

Callous: ou should be able to get passed out drunk at a party full of people and have no worries of getting raped because no one should take advantage of you. Reality doesn't work that way.

Rape, like mugging, is often a crime of opportunity. You don't have to be constantly vigilant, but there are circumstances where the risk is higher. And there are behaviors that increase that risk, therefore there are behaviors that will decrease the risk.

And your clothing could be a factor in fighting off an attack. Clothes that restrict movement will work against you, shoes that aren't easy to run in, etc. What I'm trying to tell you is to be aware of the circumstances everyday life puts you into and take steps to manage the risk.


I... really should stop being surprised that there are men who think these are HUGE REVELATIONS FOR WOMEN ZOMG. You mean some situations present higher risks than others? Oh man, thank you so much for that revelation. I've never considered that perspective before, no sirree. I should do something about  this?

Maybe I should start carrying around pepper spray, trying not to be caught alone in an elevator with a guy I don't know, avoiding parking garage stair wells, not walking too close to rows of cars in case someone is hiding between them, checking over my shoulder with a compact mirror if I'm worried someone is lurking behind me, making sure i never leave my drink unattended, having a friend walk me to my car at night, calling my boyfriend when I leave somewhere so he knows when I should be home. Oh! And when I was single, I probably should have been making sure a friend always knew where I was when I want on dates with someone. Oh and I should definitely find a buddy at parties and make sure we watch out for each other.

Oh wait. That's all the shiat I've done since I was a teenager. Like almost every other woman I know.

But please. Share a few more earth shattering revelations about how reality works and what it's like to be a woman.
2013-02-26 02:55:13 AM  
2 votes:

evaned: I understand that you probably were using hyperbole and, if asked, would acknowledge the problem of prison sentences. At the same time, I bet you'd have jumped on someone who appeared to be semi-sincerely trying to downplay how bad of a crime rape is.


Yes, but do you not get why it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating to have the "Well men can face false accusations of rape, and that's horrible and wrong" discussion in every single thread about rape, like that's relevant to the topic at hand and a totally logical thing to bring up in discussion? It almost without fail gets brought up as the corollary to stories about women being raped. "Oh yes, but men can be ACCUSED of rape, so that's something that we need to take into consideration in this story."

It is always a derailing tactic. It always implies that the woman in question is lying. And it happens no matter who the victim is, who the perpetrator is or what the facts of the article are and it happens on stories where the accused has not even been charged with a crime. Where all the victim is doing is speaking about their experience.

So yes, forgive me for not taking the conversational thread about how terrible false accusations can be seriously, but I'm done allowing that to become the focus of a thread about rape. Next time a story from the innocence project crops up about a wrongful conviction, I will be all over that too, and I'll be more than happy to criticize the justice system and how the case was handled and I'll be completely on the side of the man whose rights were trampled on- I always am. (And generally, the man in question is a low income black man. Not a middle class university student.) That discussion will be totally relevant in that thread and I'll be happy to have it.

But in this one? A story about the systemic cover up by a university of the reported rapes of 65 students? Any "But what about the men" discussion in this thread is bullshiat and should be recognized as such.
2013-02-26 01:46:12 AM  
2 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.


What part of non-consensual ("you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested") don't you understand?!!
2013-02-26 01:24:57 AM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: bigwf2007: Help to do what? Counseling? Sure. Take a semester off? OK. Declare someone guilty of a felony without a trial in a real court where he has legal counsel and due process? No. Have him kicked out of school based on that declaration? No, again.

In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.

And yes, some counseling and some flexible academic arrangements would probably help.


Then she should go to the police. She only wanted him moved? On what basis? Her word? That is the problem. You just assume he is a bad man because depressed chick says so. What do you think happens to a guy at college that is punished for rape, without actually being so much as investigated by police? The chick should move, and stay away from him. Go to the police or shut the hell up. Problem is, as soon as she opens her mouth, truth or lie, it does not matter. The guy is guilty in the eyes of almost everyone, and that is simply not fair.

He should sue her for all she is worth.
2013-02-26 01:13:14 AM  
2 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.


are you shiatting me
2013-02-26 12:57:28 AM  
2 votes:

JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.


True story: My senior year of high school, a buddy of mine who was meek and had the utmost credibility was accused of rape by a female friend of his.  We were all up in arms about it.  She had a boyfriend who was in boot camp, and he told us (and we all figured he was right) that they had gotten drunk and boned and she was looking to justify it.  Our friend was a total gentleman, and not a farking rapist.

Then a couple of years later, a female friend of both of ours woke up after a night of partying to see him sitting on her bed fingering her.  But she made the excuse that maybe she led him on, and she was drunk enough that maybe she even told him he could, and he stopped and he's a nice guy so everyone drop it.

Then a couple years later, another female friend awoke to him trying to take her pants off.  Luckily, she was sober and knew that she hadn't been hitting on him, because she had just told him the day before that she had a boyfriend and he needed to stop asking her out on a date.

I'm now 100% convinced that me and my friends were wrong about what happened that day in high school.  But yeah, at the time he sure seemed credible.
2013-02-26 12:41:13 AM  
2 votes:

JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.




This thread is over the limit on trolls at this time. Try your troll again later.
2013-02-26 12:40:33 AM  
2 votes:
And really, I have to know: Who thought it would be a good idea to let some idiot children without with no significant legal education or bar licensing act as judges, juries, and legal counsel for sexual assault cases?

"My roommate bought diet Pepsi instead of diet Coke and I'm a little peeved about it," is the threshold for the significance of shiat these people should have ever been trusted to handle.  Anything more important than that and it goes to someone who knows what the fark they are doing.
2013-02-26 12:27:21 AM  
2 votes:

Moonlightfox: Innocent until proven guilty applies to men, too. Even if you think it shouldn't. No conviction? Going around calling them a rapist with the intent of ruining their lives is a crime.


She has not named him publicly. Read the article. Stop making assumptions that enable rapists.

And you know what? Even if a conviction hasn't been obtained, a rape victim still has the right to speak about their own experiences.
2013-02-26 12:05:51 AM  
2 votes:

Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.


I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."
2013-02-25 11:49:04 PM  
2 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Weaver95:
again, you miss the point.

What point? That UNC needs to encourage it's students that have been victims of crimes that they need to go to the police? Because if so I agree. If you're implying that there's some kind of coverup going on, then(as a completely uninvolved bystander) I'm going to need to see some evidence first before I'm on board with that interpretation of events.


lemme put it to you this way:

student: 'I was raped.  I reported it to the cops.  i'm in therapy and i'm having a bad day.  can you give me a break?  maybe cut me some slack?'
university: 'no.  and don't go telling anyone about it either or we'll destroy your reputation forever.  man up and walk it off.'
student: 'I wanna appeal.'
university president" 'appeal denied. now go walk it off, ya lazy slut'.
student: 'this is crappy customer service.'  [goes public]  LOOK AT THIS CRAPPY CUSTOMER SERVICE! I GET BETTER TREATMENT AT A MCDONALDS WINDOW!'
university: 'ok that's it - yer f*cked now biatch.'
Fedgov: 'well now, she might have a point.  that was some mighty bad customer service.'
internet goons: 'slutty biatch.  she probably WANTED to be raped.'
everyone else: [makes disgusted faces] 'assholes'.
2013-02-25 11:47:08 PM  
2 votes:

Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?


The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?
2013-02-25 11:44:12 PM  
2 votes:

Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.


What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order
2013-02-25 11:34:20 PM  
2 votes:
BarkingUnicorn:
Oh, it's much bigger than that.  She is only one of many who signed the complaint.  A pattern of covering up rape is alleged.  If proven, UNC can join Penn State.

Check some of my other posts in this thread. There's absolutely no real evidence of any kind presented in this article or the ones linked ITFA. This is absolutely the last situation that should be treated to a public forum such as an article in Huff Po or Jezabel. When the matter of rape is brought up tempers tend to run high which is why this is a matter for the police. It needs to be decided in a court of law not the court of public opinion. And so far it seems to have been handled VERY badly by pretty much everyone involved.
2013-02-25 11:27:00 PM  
2 votes:
Theaetetus:
I'm telling you, there are predators in our midst....

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you? That's not funny. It's not pithy. It's not clever. You're defending women or anyone's honor by saying these things. It is not Justice. It is pretty stupid though, so you've got that going for you.
2013-02-25 11:25:50 PM  
2 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Ambivalence: Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.

There hasn't been a police investigation, no charges have been filed. All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it. This University "honor court" bullshiat isn't going to cut it. And if the University is guilty of anything it's not telling her that in the first place.


Oh, it's much bigger than that.  She is only one of many who signed the complaint.  A pattern of covering up rape is alleged.  If proven, UNC can join Penn State.
2013-02-25 11:25:34 PM  
2 votes:

doglover: Theaetetus: Well, gosh, who's in the wrong in that situation?

Everyone.


... Holy fark. My hypothetical had:
(i) lazy sensationalist reporter who's at least recklessly defaming someone; and
(ii) legitimate victim who doesn't have enough details to name specific person but does the best she can;
and you say that both are wrong?

That is seriously farked up.
2013-02-25 11:25:13 PM  
2 votes:

kendelrio: meow said the dog: doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

You supporting rapists isn't really surprising.  At all.

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes,

Wow, did you just pull the "I have Black friends" but replaced Black with raped?  Awesome.

You are an ass.

I've helped my sister and friends cope with rapes. I've seen the depression, suicidal thoughts and absolute damage a rape does. I've seen absolutely friendly outgoing beautiful human beings destroyed because some asshole think he deserves whatever he's taking.

F*U*C*K* you and DIAF


Uh, you claim to have friends who have gone through rape, yet you jump at the chance to defend rapists.  You're the ass.
2013-02-25 11:24:25 PM  
2 votes:
http://www.fark.com/comments/7612030/82730778#c82730778" target="_blank" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7612030/82730778#c8 2730778">kendelrio: Genevieve Marie: kendelrio: But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.

Do you have any idea what that process is like for a rape victim?

Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes, I know the trauma. Also, have you ever lived in Hawaii?


But yet you can't understand how any victim would not want to relive that, over and over again? You can't understand the invasiveness of a SANE exam, the stigma, or that some jackoff attorney will be accusing you in court of being a slut, drunk, stupid, etc. or just outright lying when you've already been pulled through hell? The fear of the investigators botching the case and getting all your efforts to bring justice thrown out of court, and then having to know that your tormentor walked?

Wow.... If your sister and, ahem, "friends", had the courage to report, I sincerely hope their efforts weren't in vain and that the rapists got theirs. However, that rarely happens, another reason why sexual assault victims often don't report at all. It's too easy for the case to be thrown out, bogged down, the victim discredited, and no resolution be provided.
2013-02-25 11:24:08 PM  
2 votes:
I don't automatically believe everything I read, noone does; otherwise we wouldn't have discussions about new articles.

I know that women lie. Had a girl accuse me of 'undressing her with my eyes' in high school. No clue who she was, and I wasn't, because I'm gay.

Reading stories like this makes me glad I am. Women will make up 'facts' to fit the emotional narrative they want, and are generally (not all of them...) horrible people to deal with. I would guess that large numbers of psycho-ex-girlfriends have done more damage to society than the few predominantly male serial/mass killers.
 

If I were King of the World, all women would be locked in (not forced) breeding camps until menopause. Grandmothers are OK.
2013-02-25 11:24:00 PM  
2 votes:

meow said the dog: doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

You supporting rapists isn't really surprising.  At all.

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes,

Wow, did you just pull the "I have Black friends" but replaced Black with raped?  Awesome.


You are an ass.

I've helped my sister and friends cope with rapes. I've seen the depression, suicidal thoughts and absolute damage a rape does. I've seen absolutely friendly outgoing beautiful human beings destroyed because some asshole think he deserves whatever he's taking.

F*U*C*K* you and DIAF
2013-02-25 11:23:22 PM  
2 votes:

kendelrio: No, the point of that question is a friend of mine who I've lost touch woth and was a rape victum is named Genevieve an based on the vehemence with which this person comes into these threads with, I thought it may be her.

/not a rapist


No, I've never lived in Hawaii, and based on your opinions, I doubt we'd have been friends.

I'm passionate about these issues because I'm a woman, a feminist and oh yea: decent human beings get angry when they see a rape victim treated badly.
rpm
2013-02-25 11:19:46 PM  
2 votes:

Dokushin: You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape."  Just like no one had to tell me not to murder.  Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape


You don't have to tell people? Then why does it work?
2013-02-25 11:19:39 PM  
2 votes:
Wow, it's pretty tough for me to believe people are jumping at the chance to defend the guy.
2013-02-25 11:15:01 PM  
2 votes:

Dokushin: and they do not need to be taught how to have respect for other


I would adamantly disagree with this. All people everywhere need to be taught to have respect for others. It is not a concept newborns are familiar with at birth.  In fact, newborns / kids only think about what they want and what feels good at the moment.  Someone has to teach them to think differently.
2013-02-25 11:09:41 PM  
2 votes:
 alleged rapist
2013-02-25 11:03:44 PM  
2 votes:
Where the hell am I living? Did I go to sleep in the 20th century and wake up after honor and justice and decency were outlawed? Pedophile priests protected by popes, bungling bankers bankrolled by bureaucrats, and now rapists rudely razzed. WTF America?!

Someone fold up the flag and eat the last piece of apple pie...we're finished.
2013-02-25 11:03:34 PM  
2 votes:

Ryan2065: But Judicial Programs Officer Erik Hunter said the Honor Court members and the student attorney general's staff received a full day of training after the interim procedures were implemented.


Ooooo, a whole day of training! I'm sure that straightened everyone out!
2013-02-25 10:58:55 PM  
2 votes:
Theaetetus: FTFA: "It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend. "

The article is (very) light on details and contains no comment from the University. All we have is the Huffington Post(who's trying to stir up controversy to generate clicks) and a clearly outraged woman. The story is totally one sided and without more details there's no way to know what actually happened. The fact that she tried to resolve the problem in university honor court and not through the police is unusual. I'm not passing blame and I'm not in any way implying that she's lying. But there is no way to tell from the facts presented(few and distorted as they are) what actually happened. You and several others seem very quick to assign blame without really understanding what's going on.
2013-02-25 10:58:01 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally.


Which I noticed and it was the coolest thing all day. You could look up the man, but no one cares enough to do that. People just want a story. A good "I was raped and the government did nothing." gets people all fired up and angry at the police for not solving rapes.

The only better thing would be people who publicly accuse one person of a crime being charged with that crime themselves if it turns out their accusation was known to be false to them.
2013-02-25 10:53:22 PM  
2 votes:

Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.

I have had women friends show me whistles, steak knives, and other implements they carry with them at all times to hopefully ward off a rapist.  I have sat in a room of 25 other college football players and heard them all agree that, if they were raping a girl anyway, they may as well sodomize her while they were at it.  And I have seen teenage girls dragged through the mud by the media when they dare go public against their accusers.


Thank you. Been pointing this out for years--I can sit and talk about how farked up it is that we train girls to look at men like it's a third-world country until the cows come home, but I'm seriously starting to think that rape culture is only going to get resolved when women start openly displaying weapons and treating injured wannabe rapists like marks of honor.
2013-02-25 10:50:57 PM  
2 votes:
Landen Gambill is the one who claims she is being threatened with an honor code violation for talking about her "rape.". She is the one who reported her boyfriend for an honor code violation for raping her. But I haven't found any explanation in any story I've read for why she didn't go to the police.
2013-02-25 10:48:57 PM  
2 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response. But that's apparently not good enough for you, because you want to call her "an activist with an axe to grind" so that people will shut her up.  Boy, you sure are angry at being called out on your own words.
And I stand by my original declaration of your Farky. That's incredibly sociopathic, and there's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.


You sound fat.
2013-02-25 10:48:21 PM  
2 votes:
Gambill hadn't told her parents the "horrific and disturbing" truth, but she claims her student Honor Court representative did so without permission. While Gambill testified at her trial, she says her student rep gave her parents a confidential document she had written, which was intended to be used only as evidence in the Honor Court. "When I found out he had given it to them, I asked him why," Gambill said, recounting her outrage. She said that the student rep told her that he "thought they should know."

Whoa, that's a violation of federal privacy laws, isn't it?
2013-02-25 10:46:54 PM  
2 votes:

atomicmask: Maybe she should wait for her "alleged" rapist to be convicted so its no longer an "Alleged" case and its a convicted case, other wise its just defaming the character of someone.


Didn't RTFA, did you?
2013-02-25 10:43:23 PM  
2 votes:

Theaetetus: Whup, got another sociopath! "If the rapist isn't convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accuser is guilty of lying and we don't need trials or anything."
Tag him and bag him.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any kind of guilt supposed to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt before it is established? Or is merely asking this question enough to identify myself as a rapist sociopath?
2013-02-25 10:39:07 PM  
2 votes:
Theaetetus:
Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody. I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.
2013-02-25 10:37:21 PM  
2 votes:

Somacandra: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.


just skimmed that article.  YIKES!  if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?
2013-02-25 10:35:31 PM  
2 votes:

bigwf2007: So has anyone actually been convicted of or even criminally charged with rape in this case?


the article doesn't make that point clear...but this isn't about the rape case.  this is about how the school handled allegations of rape, which was to apparently cover it up and pretend it doesn't happen on campus.
2013-02-25 10:34:26 PM  
2 votes:

Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Voiceofreason01: All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it.


Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.
2013-02-25 10:30:55 PM  
2 votes:

Theaetetus: You're assuming he didn't know all about it and was spreading lies and misinformation anyway.


I try not to assert malice where incompetence alone can account for the problem. If there is malice afoot, then that's already out of my department.
2013-02-25 10:27:23 PM  
2 votes:

Somacandra: IgG4: Look if you get raped you go to the cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights.

Hmmm. Let's click the link here...

Some backstory: "I just woke up in my bed covered in blood and not knowing what happened," said Pino, now a junior at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. Today she still doesn't know who he was. She says she's suffered depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, but when she applied for medical withdrawal from her classes, Pino said the Academic Advising office told her she was "being lazy." Over the next several months, Pino heard similar tales from more than 60 other sexual assault survivors at UNC.

Yeah, I think you might want to check out the situation a little more before jumping to any more mansplaining conclusions.


You're assuming he didn't know all about it and was spreading lies and misinformation anyway.
2013-02-25 10:11:41 PM  
2 votes:

FTFA: the graduate student attorney general sent a warning to Gambill that she may have violated the school's Honor Code,

i.imgur.com



Uh oh, looks like we got a GED in Law over here. That kangaroo court will fold faster than Superman on laundry day. Send over a real writ of mandamus from a state judge and tell me how long it lasts.

/graduate student attorney general? give me a farking break
2013-02-25 10:00:19 PM  
2 votes:

IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?


The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.
2013-02-25 09:19:00 PM  
2 votes:
Get the police involved, and then she'll be hassled about speaking about a pending case, until after the trial.
2013-02-25 09:02:35 PM  
2 votes:
well we can't have her rapist feeling uncomfortable now can we?  that would be inhuman!
2013-02-25 08:50:27 PM  
2 votes:
So I'm sitting in Intro to Physics during my freshman year; it is the first day for the class that semester.  The professor introduces himself, and gives his spiel about the course curriculum.  He then asks if there are any questions.

A girl a few rows ahead of me raises her hand.  The professor nods, and the girl stands up.  In a shaky but determined voice she says, "Sir, I don't have a question.  But the person sitting there is [fake name here], and he raped me."  She stood there pointing at the guy.

Well the accused hurriedly excused himself from the room, and she sat back down.  The professor decided that would be a good note to close on.  Not sure if I saw either the accuser or accused after that day.
2013-02-25 07:18:48 PM  
2 votes:
Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.
2013-02-28 09:40:10 PM  
1 votes:

Abacus9: when both are drunk, it IS almost always the man's fault.


According to you, a woman  cannot give consent while drunk, and a man  can give consent while drunk.  Why the difference?
2013-02-28 05:40:33 AM  
1 votes:
I can't believe I read 25 pages of this.  Really made a 12hour shift go by.  What I got from all this is that hyperbole is misused by everyone and no one wants to concede much to the counterpoint.  Bottom line: Rape = Bad.  Accusation of Rape should = investigation.  I think we need to educate women from a young age about examinations and the need for them in case of sexual assault/rape and that it is the best thing to get a rapist behind bars.  Perhaps a counselor with the patient during the process or just a caring person.  Neutrality until conviction for both parties.
2013-02-28 05:00:58 AM  
1 votes:
I didn't miss a point, I went exactly by your words.  I even quoted you.  You didn't say some cases.  You didn't say, "this is how some guys operate" until I called you on it.  You said (I'll quote again), "The guy knows what he's doing, and is the one doing the actual penetrating. This is done willingly. The sentence of yours that I've bolded is sort of ridiculous. The fact that this sort of thing happens at all, where both are drunk, is basically just planning ahead on the part of the guy."

One man in this thread who was raped described exactly the "ridiculous" situation you're referring to.  The other was coerced into oral sex and had to fight off penetrative sex in this manner.  Either a man can give consent while intoxicated or he cannot.  If he can, then the law is a double standard and doesn't protect men from rape from either sex.  If he cannot, then the female is equally a rapist, whoever is intoxicated.

You're doing what you argued against earlier, I'm pointing out your hypocrisy.
2013-02-28 04:02:53 AM  
1 votes:
I also forgot to call you a pro-rapist, sociopath, or loon.

Pic any 2.
2013-02-28 03:17:56 AM  
1 votes:

Abacus9:I see your point, and it can be a bit of a gray area. I'm just saying that in the case where they're both drunk, it's almost always the girl who didn't consent. The guy knows what he's doing, and is the one doing the actual penetrating. This is done willingly. The sentence of yours that I've bolded is sort of ridiculous. The fact that this sort of thing happens at all, where both are drunk, is basically just planning ahead on the part of the guy.




So, Genevieve, we have 2 accounts in this thread of men who were sexually coerced and, quite possibly, raped by women.  Now we have his person blaming the victim, implicitly calling them liars, and insinuating that not only did they deserve it but were, in fact, the instigators of their own assault.


Does this person receive the verbal pee pee smack, so to speak? He's attacked much harder than the person up thread that questioned the female victim about her social status, right?


People like this, people like you, and morons like Weaver are feeding the beliefs of loons that believe that every rape accusation is a lie. They see logical inconsistency, moral inconsistency, and name calling. They also, apparently, see statements making it appear at men cannot in fact be chemically coerced. Either smack him down or wallow in hypocrisy.

You, Gen, appear to be the best of a bad lot. Don't let it go to your head.


/out
2013-02-27 10:13:17 AM  
1 votes:
media.dth.s3.amazonaws.com

Not sure why we've neglected to discuss it but.....CRAZY EYES!
2013-02-27 12:31:30 AM  
1 votes:

Benjamin Orr: Jesus you guys and gals are really sexually abusing this thread


Point out where the thread said no to this.  The thread consented, it's posters' word against the thread.  The thread shouldn't have had a drink in our company, and shouldn't have dressed so provocatively.  And since the thread didn't go to an authority, it must've liked it.
 One more thing: to the whomever that said it's just "putting a guy's hoo hoo dilly in a girl's cha cha", does that mean if that didn't take place, it wasn't sexual assault?  Does that mean guys sticking broomsticks up another guy's ass, or someone forcing someone else into oral sex is not sexual assault?  Or is it no big deal, and the assaulted needs to put some mud on it and get on with life?
2013-02-26 09:07:04 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: For what it's worth, as much as that particular poster grated on me in this thread, I don't see any contradiction in being a woman and being opposed to circumcision. I'm mildly against it. I don't believe it's incredibly cruel or damaging or anything along those lines, I just tend to be wary of any elective surgery performed on someone for cosmetic purposes before that person is old enough to consent to what's happening to them.



Oh, sure, but there's a difference between saying, for example, "If I ever have any male children, I probably won't have them circumcised" and "GRAWR!  ZOMG THEy're multiatimng BABIES !!!!!111ty"

In a weird way it's a little like homophobia.  If you think gay marriage is bad, don't marry a gay person.  If you think gay sex is bad, don't have gay sex.  That's all fine.  But when you start getting red in the face and screaming about how homosexuality is disgusting end evil and is bringing about the downfall of America, you have a problem.  I could say nearly the same about the "Intactivists," the ones who get REALLY worked up about circumcision, and who want to pass laws outlawing it, etc.

(I refuse, by the way, to call circumcision "male circumcision" because there is no such thing as "female circumcision."   FGM is not in any way, shape, or form, comparable to circumcision.)


On a different note, one thing I find interesting about the kinds of people I call "Vulcans" (such as heili skrimsli and fredklein, to name two in this thread) is how often they'll claim to be calm, cool, and rational even when their actual behaviour is more like that unto a raging hell-beast of furiously redundant rage.  Compare, for example, heili skrimsli description of herself in her profile ("I am often overly rational in situations where people expect emotional responses") with what she says when people disagree with her ("Hey dipshiat, I'm female and I still think you are batshiat insane paranoid if you're fearful of an elevator ride or you need to look over your shoulder in your makeup mirror just to make it down the street").

The disconnect between how they THINK they act and how they ACTUALLY act is amazing.  I find the whole phenomenon of "Vulcanitis" fascinating.
2013-02-26 08:45:42 PM  
1 votes:

ciberido: heili skrimsli: Genevieve Marie: Now be grateful that you had the privilege to be born in a world that doesn't demand the same of you and then blame you if you fail to be vigilant for a few hours and become a victim.

Hey dipshiat, I'm female and I still think you are batshiat insane paranoid if you're fearful of an elevator ride or you need to look over your shoulder in your makeup mirror just to make it down the street.

If you don't mind my asking a somewhat personal question, if you're female, why are you an intactivist?  That seems .... an odd choice of things for a woman to get so worked up about.


For what it's worth, as much as that particular poster grated on me in this thread, I don't see any contradiction in being a woman and being opposed to circumcision. I'm mildly against it. I don't believe it's incredibly cruel or damaging or anything along those lines, I just tend to be wary of any elective surgery performed on someone for cosmetic purposes before that person is old enough to consent to what's happening to them.
2013-02-26 08:27:46 PM  
1 votes:

Cataholic: If I've learned anything from this thread, it's that all men either have raped someone or wish to rape someone or would rape someone given the chance, and that anyone who defends someone who probably did not rape someone is still a misogynist asshole because they are white-knighting someone who likely will rape or at the very least wants to rape someone.


I'm pretty sure that you have not, in fact, learned anything from this thread.
2013-02-26 07:50:32 PM  
1 votes:
Theaetetus:
Are you sure she didn't swear an oath?

If you really were a lawyer (and it's obvious you are not), you would know the legal difference between swearing under oath in a court (or signing under the penalty of perjury) and swearing to something outside of a courtroom.

For one, you can go to jail if you lied.  For the other, you get called a liar (and maybe expelled from the school).
2013-02-26 07:23:02 PM  
1 votes:
Theaetetus:
Gosh, you're so gracious. You realize that your current stance is itself slanderous? Or would be if anyone an ...

Wow.  That claim of being a lawyer is pretty slim when you fail this hard.  Any L1 would be able to tell you two things wrong with your idiocy on this specific quote, and three if they tried hard.
2013-02-26 07:14:19 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: OgreMagi: And a trial of public opinion does not count.

... says the guy insisting she's committing slander.


Says the guy who is defending possible slander.
2013-02-26 06:10:31 PM  
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: MagSeven: And yes, IANAL but I believe that the victim's physical arousal has been used by the defense in more than one rape case.

What does that stand for? I'm assuming it's like AFAIK (as far as I know) I can't really Google it at work...

I. LOVE. ANAL. (you can't type a "heart" symbol)


I♥ ANAL
2013-02-26 04:47:36 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.

Can you prove that?

Yes, by going to the campus and hanging around for a week or two.

Then please do so before you publicly accuse someone of slander rape, without evidence.

2013-02-26 03:58:44 PM  
1 votes:

HideAndGoFarkYourself: 'll NEVER understand why people who are victims of crime insist upon going to their school, or employer, to have those allegations investigated. If somebody sexually assaulted me, I'd first call the police and THEN inform the school so that they may begin an investigation to possibly expel the person, while the police are working the criminal aspect of it.


In my case, I'd go to my employer because they DO operate police forces with the power to arrest, and the local 'courthouse' is in the admin building across the street.  Some colleges run their own full police departments.

Still, 'rape' gets complicated.  You'd think that it's relatively simple, but it isn't.  There's a lot of mental issues bound up.  Heck, there's cases where the person wants the rapist punished, but feel that the legal punishment is so over the top that they don't report it.  That's what it sounds like here - the 'honor system' would punish the rapist a more legitimate amount in her thoughts.  Or perhaps would be easier on her.  Can't say, don't know.

In this case though, it's dealing with the school/work issues brought upon by the attack/rape that is the issue at hand.  Apparently the school isn't sympathetic enough(I'd agree by default with the evidence given; my opinion is subject to change upon more information).

nekulor: Less than 1% of all self-reported cases of rape are false accusations, so I think you're buying into the bullshiat right wing talking point and defending a pretty indefensible and misogynistic position.


Please note:  I'm for the truth.  Wikipedia lists various 'false rape reporting' statistics.  They're all over the place, varying from a low of 1.5% all the way to 90%.  Going by the median, it'd be 18.2%, average would be 21.7%.

FBI and British home office statistics both nail it at 8% - I view this as a good estimate; while it probably falsely considers some rape reports as fake, it also doesn't account for false reports resulting in conviction/charges/non-guilty by reason of insufficient evidence rather than 'false report'.

Genevieve Marie: That's actually a pretty common occurrence. That's why it's pretty generally understood that one of the reasons the rape rate is so high is because the same rapist generally commits multiple rapes. Often, that's what it also takes for a conviction- multiple cases that establish a pattern against someone.


I was just in a briefing last week.  One of the quoted statistics is that each rapist commits between 17 and 18 rapes, on average, before being convicted.  If true and 10% of women end up raped once(or more) times in their life, that translates to less than 1% of men being rapists.

Other statistics off the top of my head - 1 in 3 reported rapes end in conviction.  While lousy, if everybody who's raped reported it, it'd drop the number of average rapes per offender(most stop after 1 conviction and sentence) down to about 3.  Or 20% of what it is currently.  I'd call that great progress.

Also, as a general note I'll admit that while I think that it should be an adult's right to do what drugs that they will, with the caveat that doing drugs(or amounts of drugs) that cause them to become impaired, irrational, or even unconscious around people you might not trust is just plain stupid.
2013-02-26 03:55:32 PM  
1 votes:
All I'm saying is people should take personal responsibility for the situations they put themselves in. Doesn't make it any less traumatic nor apprehensible. Doesn't mean they don't deserve justice. Rape goes both ways. My best friend's brother was underaged drinking at some party, was drugged, and some bad things happened to him. It screwed him up, and the guy refuses to sleep in a bed anymore. What did he do? He stayed the hell away from those situations, and he learned to control his drinking. It doesn't make me want to ruin the people responsible for it any less, and if I ever found out for a fact who it was I would probably go to jail if I were found out. He just took personal responsibility for putting himself in a shady situation. He's still a victim, and it was still traumatic, and I still want to sterilize the ones responsible.
2013-02-26 03:33:35 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.


I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.
2013-02-26 02:46:24 PM  
1 votes:
Callous:

Because the first thing they are going to want to do is take her pants off and and touch her in places that she is already a little sensitive about considering the nature of the assault she suffered.  Can you not understand why she would be at least apprehensive?

12 months after the fact?  You farkin numbnuts.  She claims she has tons of evidence to convict him... and yet she still won't show it to the cops.
2013-02-26 02:10:20 PM  
1 votes:

spiderpaz: liam76: spiderpaz: Isn't that kind of a dishonest way of circumventing her will to intentionally find her in a state where she's not capable of saying what she really wants?

If the person isn't capable of saying or no or doesn't know what they are sayingt hat is a completely different story.

I have hit on chicks and been shot down only to end up hooking up with them later.

What about my story led you to believe I was sober enough to say no?


You could talk, you could remember it, you had the ability to say, "sure why not" (your words) and you did instead of booting her out.  If that isn;t what happened you need to work on your story.


spiderpaz: Also ... I think you might be a serial rapist if you are continually being rejected by women and waiting for them to get drunk so you can fark them.


So once you hit on a girl and she says no you never talk to her again?

If you talk to her again later on in the evening and she is more receptive you must have been sitting around waiting for her to get drunk?

You are pulling a lot of conclusions out that are in no way supported by what I said.


spiderpaz: Do they wake up the next morning sober and want to fark you again?


Sometimes.

spiderpaz: If not ... it might have been rape and they might just not want to deal with it.


So if soemone doesn't want sex in the morning that is a good infication of rape, and the person consenting that night doesn't matter?  Really?


spiderpaz: Glad I stuck around - I almost left you on my green list


No big loss, you have always been on my moron list.
2013-02-26 01:44:46 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: BSABSVR: Genevieve Marie: People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.

Which is why the "my buddy in college was an awesome and funny guy and got falsely accused and I know this because he was my pal and therefore awesome and above such things" anecdote doesn't hold a lot of sway with me. It's certainly possible that decent dude met a super unstable woman, but sometimes that decent dude is secretly a major asshole.

It's also possible that the "unstable" woman who is acting way less cool than she was last night might be acting that way on account of being raped.

Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.


Funny how a couple of biddies can agree on how the word of another human being means nothing, and therefore he's probably a rapist.

Have you farking listened to yourselves?  You sound paranoid and pathetic.
2013-02-26 01:20:41 PM  
1 votes:
North Carolina is giant theme park for ignorance.
2013-02-26 01:08:42 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: fredklein: It reminds me of a lot of customer service stories: Customer wants to return a damaged purchase, but gets pissed off when told they are outside of the return period. They had a chance to use the system, but chose to not do so, and now they whine and biatch about how unfair it is.

My mistake. I made the mistake of treating you like a human being capable of empathy for a second there.


I lack empathy because women choose to not take advantage of a system, then, when it's too late, choose to whine and complain??

God, your poor daughters.

Yes, poor, poor them- taught to be strong and actually GO TO THE COPS AND REPORT IT if they get attacked. Poor, poor, dears. I should instead tell them to NOT report crimes, and then spend the rest of their lives regretting it and posting on the Internet. That's soooo much better.
2013-02-26 12:40:55 PM  
1 votes:

orbister: [img136.imageshack.us image 850x473]


Yay!  Comics are fun!
2013-02-26 12:33:32 PM  
1 votes:
"When I went to report my assault in 2007, I asked an administrator what the process would look like," Clark said. "Instead, that person told me, 'Rape is like a football game, Annie. If you look back on the game, and you're the quarterback and you're in charge, is there anything that you would have done differently in that situation?'"

*knock**knock* Say, Walt, got a minute?
Sure, Bill, come on in! Say, you see the touchdown Biff Blockovscky made last Saturday?
Wow, yeah Walt, that was something!
I wonder if you could have a word with his Freshman Comp teacher - you know the one, skinny, goatee, *mimes limp-wrist gesture*.... take the heat off with the assignments and the grades. Can't have athletes like Biff penned up in the library reading ... Cat in the Hat ... when they should be practicing. We need Biff focused and in shape for the big game against State next month.
Sure thing, Walt.
Heck, we've only got him another year before he graduates and goes pro, we need him on the field.
I'll take care of it, Walt. Say, uh ... there's a little lady outside wants a word with you.
Oh?
Yeah. Seems some fellow ... well, had his way with her, you know how it is.
Sure I do.
Something about waking up with a concussion in a pool of her own blood.
Shame. .... Say, it wasn't one of our athletes, was it?
She's not saying who it was.
Well that's good anyway. So what's she doing here?
Says she wants to put off her mid-terms while she gets patched up.
Oh she does, does she? Anything else?
Wants us to arrange so she's not living next door to the guy anymore.
I suppose she'd like the VIP Suite at the Hilton in the meantime too? Steak dinners every night? Let the kids at the Honor Court handle it.
She's been there. Says she's been to her department, the Dean of Student affairs, the headshrinker over at the campus clinic, the cops, even the State Police.
Oh, brother.
Says if you can't fix things, she'll write the Department of Education.
DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?! Cripes, that's all we need. These ...
She seems kinda rattled about the whole thing - you know how ladies are, sometimes.
Hmm. Guess I better give her the ol' Knute Rockne halftime speech, she'll understand that. You see, Bill, you gotta know how to get through to these kids, talk their language.
You know best, Walt.
OK, send the little chippy in. And if this doesn't cool her down, we'll make her wish she'd married the poor bastard.
2013-02-26 12:14:55 PM  
1 votes:

fredklein: Genevieve Marie: The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."

And what, exactly, is your solution?

The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.


Or we can understand that not all rapists are going to be convicted and face jail time and some of them are going to walk free because their victims would prefer to protect their own mental health and privacy and that while this is terribly unjust, it's how the real world works.

We can also acknowledge that just because a crime is not reported does not mean it never existed. It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose  to deal with what happened to them.
2013-02-26 12:10:15 PM  
1 votes:

5monkeys: Genevieve Marie: liam76: So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?

Yea, no. This isn't going tot happen. This thread is not going to turn into one where you question the details of someone who has chosen to share their personal story and indicate that you think they're being less than truthful. No. Not ok. Not even a little bit ok.

Most high school groups contain a range of people. There are leaders and followers. Being friends with a popular person does not mean you wield the same kind of power in school. But that's all beside the point, and the point is that questioning someone's personal story about their rape experience in a situation where they're sharing it anonymously and not on a witness stand is not ok.

But he proves the point we have been trying to make. I am a liar. He says so. One small detail doesn't fit his way and it is all wrong. People wonder why victims don't come forward. whyt is why.


Where did I say you were a liar?

Where did I say it is all wrong?

All it proves is that you hear what you want to hear, and aren't capable of having an adult conversation.
2013-02-26 12:00:43 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but exactly how far are women expected to go to mitigate risk? And do you see why it's such an impossible standard to demand of women- the idea that all or most rapes can be prevented if only we're careful enough? And how irksome it is to hear some dude spout off something about risk management like he's just discovered the theory of relativity when what he's talking about is second nature to most women?

And also- do you not get how not ok it is to bring up in reference to a rape that's already happened. The implication there is always "Shame. If only she'd done something to prevent it from happening to her." That is ALWAYS shifting the burden back onto the woman in question- implying that in some small way, she's at least partially responsible for the choice someone else made to violate her body.

It's such an unkind thing to do.


I don't know if you ride motorcycles or not, but when I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course one thing they harped on is that every accident has a chain of events that leads up to it.  Break one link in the chain and the accident doesn't occur.  We were given the circumstances of several accidents and discussed what occurred and what could have been done differently to prevent it.  It wasn't about laying blame.  It was about learning from events and what can be done to prevent them.  It was about looking to the future.  It was about preventing someone else from having the same tragedy occur to them.  For instance, I had an instance where I was pulling up to an intersection where I had a green arrow to make a left turn.  That means I had the right of way and on coming traffic had a red light.  However I noticed that the driver of an on coming car didn't appear to be paying attention.  I think she was looking at her cell phone.  I stopped at the intersection and waited and sure enough she drove right through the red light.  Would it have been my fault if I had not looked at her and noticed she was distracted and made the turn and she hit me?  Hell no, not at all.  But because I learned that motorcycles getting hit while making left turns is one of the most common motorcycle involved accidents I was aware and didn't suffer the same tragedy many have before me.

I have the utmost sympathy for rape victims.  Two of my nieces were recently raped, they are 8 and 12 years old.  It is life changing for them and everyone around them.  Discussing the chain of events leading up to it and looking for ways to break that chain and spreading the knowledge gained is how we learn prevention.  Yes, some people will blame the victims.  They are douchebags that need to FO and die.  But don't think that everyone that discusses the the chain of events and points out ways to break it is laying any blame at the feet of the victim.  Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.  Like with the motorcyclescenario and the oncoming traffic.  Looking at the oncoming traffic to see if they are paying attention and are stopping for the red light seems like a very obvious thing to do.  However statistics indicate that many don't and get hit.
2013-02-26 11:56:21 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: liam76: So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?

Yea, no. This isn't going tot happen. This thread is not going to turn into one where you question the details of someone who has chosen to share their personal story and indicate that you think they're being less than truthful. No. Not ok. Not even a little bit ok.

Most high school groups contain a range of people. There are leaders and followers. Being friends with a popular person does not mean you wield the same kind of power in school. But that's all beside the point, and the point is that questioning someone's personal story about their rape experience in a situation where they're sharing it anonymously and not on a witness stand is not ok.


But he proves the point we have been trying to make. I am a liar. He says so. One small detail doesn't fit his way and it is all wrong. People wonder why victims don't come forward. whyt is why.
2013-02-26 11:49:39 AM  
1 votes:

fredklein: Theaetetus: So you agree, then, that if someone is accused of rape, there should be an arrest, charges, and a trial and we'll see whom the jury believes more?

YES.


Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.
2013-02-26 11:44:31 AM  
1 votes:
*wakes up*

i212.photobucket.com

i212.photobucket.com
2013-02-26 11:41:42 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Now be grateful that you had the privilege to be born in a world that doesn't demand the same of you and then blame you if you fail to be vigilant for a few hours and become a victim.


Hey dipshiat, I'm female and I still think you are batshiat insane paranoid if you're fearful of an elevator ride or you need to look over your shoulder in your makeup mirror just to make it down the street.

5monkeys: All of my friends who are woman do the same, or have other safety tricks.


I don't, and I have never actually met any woman in person who does the 'must have keys between fingers' and 'always keep cell phone out'. I look around when I'm out. I don't see it happening, either. The only place I have ever seen people even talk about how they always do these things is on the Internet. What you're describing does not match up with the reality I know.

Callous: Stop reading absolutes into everything everyone posts when they are discussing risk. Risk is a sliding scale and never absolute.


That's all she ever does. Look at how she assumed I was a man with privilege because I said staring over your shoulder in a compact mirror to see if anyone's watching you is farking paranoid.
2013-02-26 11:34:55 AM  
1 votes:
Genevieve Marie:  Publicly doubting the personal and painful story of someone's rape because you think the unnamed rapist deserves to be staunchly defended and that a victim should be treated as a potential liar until the rapist is convicted in a court of law hurts not just that victim, but a whole hell of a lot of others who are shamed into silence.

And yet there are more reasons to doubt her story other than the usual he said/she said divide.  Both the accused and accuser have gone through a reasonably extensive investigation.  The "court", flawed as it might be, found her arguments unconvincing despite what she describes as "voluminous evidence" against the accused.  She also steadfastly refuses to go to the police with her "voluminous evidence".  This despite her having no fear about her own anonymity, or any other shame issues as, quite obviously she's already broadcasted the claims to the entire world.  Again, there is no statute of limitations.  The "rapist" coulld be off the streets tomorrow.   But WHY doesn't she act, if nothing more than to protect other potential victims?  Why does she still refuse to go to the police?

I hate to tell you this, but these are serious red flags for most objective bystanders, even though virtually ALL information about the proceedings comes from Ms Gambill herself.  We've really yet to hear the accused's side of things and/or heard anything from the court itself.  Problematic to say the least.
2013-02-26 11:21:52 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: The survivor has to consent to each stage of the exam- yes. But the process of the exam still requires collecting evidence from wherever you were touched by the rapist.


Bullshiat.

Your own link say may.  Nothing that the survivor doesn't consent to is "required.

they certainly aren't going to take the clothes off your back as you implied.


Genevieve Marie: I don't get why it's hard to understand why going through that kind of exam would be particularly traumatic right after a rape. Why you can shrug it off like "Hey, what's the big deal if you have to spend several hours at an ER going through an invasive exam if you have the right to walk away halfway through?"


Where did I say it wasn't traumatic?  Me pointitng out you were being dishoenst, repeatedly, about things that are required doesn't mean I don't think it is dishonest.

You are still depending it is an all or nothing affair wherer your choice it to "walk away" or do everything they say.

Genevieve Marie: I'm beating my head against a wall here, I know it, but have you seriously never considered what it would be like to be raped


Yeah, I have.

I'm beating my head against a wall here, but have you ever considered what intentionally telling BS stories about what will be "required" to do in order to report a rape does?
2013-02-26 11:17:17 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: which was a total strawman, since she declined to press charges and is protecting his identity in the press.


An honest question for you.  Given what we all know about social networking among young people, you Genevieve Marie, give us your best guess as to how many people at UNC and elsewhere know exactly who this dude is?  What do you think?  100?   500?  5,000?  Keep in mind that the harassment charge against her apparently involves her prolific facebook postings about him.  Just throw a number at us.  Your best guess.  And then tell us if it's any great consolation to him if she hasn't given the press his name.
2013-02-26 11:17:09 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: I see a lot of people here blaming the victim.


The alleged victim. There was nothing presented in the article that mentioned anyone being convicted of a crime. Only an allegation.
2013-02-26 11:11:18 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: liam76: Pretty sure most hospitals don't take "all yoru clothes" as part of the investigation.

Yea, you should maybe familiarize yourself with rape examination procedures:

http://barcc.org/forensics/saf/evidence/exam


Maybe you should follow your own advice.

The survivor is in control of the entire exam. Before each step of the Kit, the medical provider should explain the step and ask the survivor if they want to continue. Nothing will be done that the survivor does not agree to.The medical provider may collect samples from the survivor's mouth, vaginal and/or anal cavities, fingernails, and other parts of the body that the perpetrator touched during the assault.Clothing and undergarments may be collected as evidence during the rape examThey don't "take all your clothes".  They will ask to swab areas where it happened.  You do your arguments no favors bt pretending that reporting rapes means they will force you to be swabbed in all oriffices and they will take all yoru clothes.
2013-02-26 10:55:49 AM  
1 votes:

5monkeys: serial_crusher: 5monkeys: To all the "she should have went to the police otherwise it isn't true" people. I was raped. I didn't go to the police. Why? Because I was 17 and afraid. He was a football player. He was a star in our school and I was a nobody. I knew no one would believe me, or even worse they would blame me. I just wanted to move past it. It took me ten years. Are you saying I am a liar? That it never happened?

Sorry to hear that.  But, did you go to the school board to complain about it, or did you just keep quiet all together.  Because all the things you were afraid of: nobody believing you, siding with him...  All those things would have been just as likely to happen if you went to the school's honor court or the media instead of the police.

Your story is an unfortunately common one, but it doesn't seem consistent with this girl's actions.  It's not that she didn't report the rape to the police.  It's that she reported it to everybody except the police.

I told my best friend and she told people who told people. Within a week I was being harassed in the hall, threatened by other girls in the locker room and bathroom. I was basically told if I snitched I would get stabbed. So I went from a bubbly happy teeneager to a girl who hid in a hoodie everyday hoping to be invisible. My friends all turned on me because he was in our group. I was the liar and he was the victim. That was the worst part. The rape was bad, but what happened later was devastating. I got to the point where I didn't want to live anymore. My mom called crisis on me and I finally told the adults what happened. They wanted me to go to the police, but I refused. There was no point. I couldn't have handled the investigation. So, I got therapy. And new friends. I graduated and married. And one day I realized it was a week after my rape date and I hadn't noticed. I knew I was finally better.

I should have went to the police. Another girl was raped by the same guy a few months after me. She ...


So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?
2013-02-26 10:53:43 AM  
1 votes:

orbister: vygramul: If I was unclear, my example was focused on how the drunk driver doesn't get out of the manslaughter charge just because they were both drunk, meaning the drunk rapist doesn't get out of a rape charge even though they were both drunk.

If two drunk people (whether MM, FM or FF is irrelevant here) have sex together, which one is the rapist?


If I've learned anything from this thread, it's that all men either have raped someone or wish to rape someone or would rape someone given the chance, and that anyone who defends someone who probably did not rape someone is still a misogynist asshole because they are white-knighting someone who likely will rape or at the very least wants to rape someone.
2013-02-26 10:47:43 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: spiderpaz: ...  but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.

Crazier farkies who said stuff like: "there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort."?
The ones who a search through this thread can't find and you can't quote or name?
Those crazier farkies?

[www.openmarket.org image 488x427]


Well the reference was obviously to you, although I tried not to directly engage you for the same reason most people don't strike up the crazy homeless guy screaming at cars driving by.  I'm really not interested in having the same conversation with you about your ridiculous double standards, and over-the-top aggressive, ranting style of debate AGAIN.

I'll concede that the word  castrate was a bit hyperbolic, because you have stopped short of that.  Just short.
2013-02-26 10:38:02 AM  
1 votes:
FTA: "I'm mostly surprised at just how crazy it is, that they're willing to charge me with something just because my rapist is feeling uncomfortable. "

Until your alleged rapist becomes a convicted rapist, he has the same rights as everyone else.  It's called due process ... even though there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort.  I mean, I get that rapes are under-reported, and that when one DOES get reported, the accusation is most likely true, even though it is hard to get a conviction - but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.
2013-02-26 10:22:06 AM  
1 votes:
From the comments section of the Daily Tarheel.  Obviously I have no way of knowing if this is even remotely legit.  Readers can make their own judgements:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013/02/sexual-assault-victim-ch ar ged


If you are a new supporter of Landen Gambill, I ask that you please take Landen Gambill's comments and new accusations with an intense dose of skepticism, if not full disbelief:
I was part of the court when her case was heard, though I post anonymously to preserve my identity. I merely represent a whistleblower, of sorts.
I saw almost no evidence to substantiate her claims of abuse and rape. She was given full and proper counsel and assistance during her case (which had the involvement of the Undergraduate Student Attorney General, herself), and she was allowed with no prohibition to enter evidence of all types to complete her accusation. We heard testimony from reliable witnesses, and from the accuser and accused themselves. What we didn't hear was a pattern of abuse that she is now claiming to have been involved in. We did not see large bruises, signs of trauma, or negligence from her body, and we did not see evidence of any kind likewise from her submitted. If she was raped, she did not provide ANY forensic or even circumstantial evidence to support her claims. What we did see was admission of clinical depression and paranoia, mental instability, and suicidal tendencies. We saw dialogue and e-mails, messages on facebook from her ex-boyfriend that support a claim of retaliation from her. She may now claim that that occurred AFTER her supposed rape, but there is evidence to the contrary. To counter possible claims of sexism: gender/sex/sexual orientation of court members is always random and in her case she was afforded female representation. The interim court was also headed by a faculty member.
I have been a part of and heard multiple sexual assault cases as a court member, and hers was anything but adequate to sufficiently convince anyone of an occurrence of rape. This is what was meant when Crisp said, "the good faith report of a rape ..." The good faith in her report did not exist.
In the current charge by Ireland (since Grayson has a conflict of interest now that she can no longer represent her) that she made an 'intimidating environment' for her ex-boyfriend, there was evidence that she harassed him, after he had left her, through facebook and by posting endlessly on her wall about supposed abuse by him, and continued to do so through public discourse. One does not need a name to be smeared, slandered, and libeled against. Conversely, one does not need a name to commit any of those actions, as well. The court found her case not reliable enough to constitute truthful admission, as seen by the verdict of Not Guilty by the interim, faculty-led court. Thus, her continued portrayal of her ex-boyfriend as a rapist is unjust and cruel, which warrants both charges given to her. This is and will be obvious as the University processes her case, despite current naive protests by the student body.
Further, she has the right in the Instrument to make her court hearing public, which she will not likely do, as it would involve introducing her prior case, her ex-boyfriend, and the insurmountable evidence produced to the contrary.
I hope this serves as a warning to actual victims to report their case so that a proper and thorough investigation may produce the truth and serve legal, criminal justice against the abuser. I was also a victim of sexual assault my sophomore year, and I found justice through our legal system. Please consider it an option at all times. I would also like to heavily condemn any person with depression that threatens suicide to keep an individual in a relationship.
2013-02-26 10:05:29 AM  
1 votes:

Dissociater: Why is there anyone that is pro-rape?


There isn't. Nobody has made anything closely approaching the points characterised as pro-rape. Everybody here is anti-rape, but some of us take a less simplistic view of life than others, and don't believe, for example, that the word "rape" immediately trumps all notions of justice, due process and evidence.
2013-02-26 09:18:55 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: And gah, the idea that your body is something you should constantly be aware of other people coveting is just... gah, I don't think most men can imagine what a mindfark that is.

And yet the entire fashion, cosmetic and underwear industries are built on that concept. Nobody is forced to wear a wonderbra, you know.

aaand with that, I'm done with you.


That's a shame. I was hoping you'd explain why it is that so many women (and men) seem to go to so much trouble to attract unwelcome attention. Real life is difficult, isn't it?
2013-02-26 09:10:03 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: That being said... it's pretty vile and really, really problematic that you seem to be implying that a woman who's confused by a terrible sexual encounter and who doesn't recognize it as rape immediately is "cheapening the word" by calling it what it was when she gets to a place where she can speak about it.


Your ad-hominem aside, you are once again trying to claim a simplistic binary reality about rape: that it can be unilaterally and accurately recognized by one party to the encounter. As you agreed, there is a grey area, and to assign all cases in that grey area to "rape" as default is without doubt cheapening the word.

Why, by the way, have you assumed that I was referring to a woman? My post was very carefully gender neutral.
2013-02-26 08:55:55 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Students lose them over all kinds of things- plagiarizing papers. Smoking in the dorms. Underage drinking. You really think rape allegations that can't be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt but that appear to administrators to be probable should be treated differently?


Yes. Wasn't this whole thread started because college administrators were making judgements about rape claims?
2013-02-26 08:52:51 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: dready zim: Sorry you have a mindfark about the world but you can`t take away the rights of men on the basis of it. Humans view humans sexually, this will never change. You have to accept it.

What rights am I advocating taking away from men?


a basic one would be to be innocent until proven guilty by something more than heresay. Due process, that sort of thing.
2013-02-26 08:48:02 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Being drunk while woman is not a crime.


And nobody said it was, or should be. In general, though, people are expected in law to take responsibility for actions they take while drunk, and for knowing that drunkenness is likley to lead to a reduction in self-control. Where do we draw the line between "committing a  sexual act while drunk which you would not have committed while sober" and "consenting to a sexual act while drunk to which you would not have consented while sober"?
2013-02-26 08:42:17 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: How exactly do you tell the people you can trust from the people you can't? Do you think rapists wear t-shirts announcing themselves?

And gah, the idea that your body is something you should constantly be aware of other people coveting is just... gah, I don't think most men can imagine what a mindfark that is.


Sorry you have a mindfark about the world but you can`t take away the rights of men on the basis of it. Humans view humans sexually, this will never change. You have to accept it.

What happens now is you sort your own shiat out and stop trying to change the world to match the prejudices inside of your head.
2013-02-26 08:40:18 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: A credible accusation with details? Possible backup witnesses? A gut feeling from the administration that the story checks out? I'm not sure that one can set an across the board standard of proof here. That's something that very much needs to be decided on a case by case basis.

 Once again: no one has an inalienable right to attend the university of their choosing. The standard of proof is much, much lower for expulsion than it is for a criminal conviction, and that is as it should be.


Would you be content for the young woman in this case to be expelled because someone in the administration had a gut feeling that she was mistaken? After all, nobody has an inalienable right to attend the university of their choosing.
2013-02-26 08:33:53 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: liam76: If you realized he raped you, then yes it clearly was rape.

Yes, but when you're hungover and sick and it's someone you know and you're an 18 or 19 year old kid away from home the first time, your first thought is not going to be "I'll go straight  to the police, and share this incredibly scary and humiliating experience and they will believe me, and once I get through the next four hours of having my vagina, mouth and anus swabbed for fluids in the presence of at least two nurses and then have all my clothes confiscated and my body hair combed, everything is going to be ok"

Some women can pull that off. A lot of women go straight into traumatic shut down mode, and people who don't understand why that is have some major issues with empathizing with others.

liam76: Earlier where? I thought you were speaking of the scenario you listed higher up in that post.
It had nothing to do with alcohol.

That was not my description of campus violence. That was me explaining someone else's views on campus violence- views I disagreed with.


So if she doesn't want to go through a legal search, her word should be enough? A possibly innocent persons freedom is worth less than a medical examination because said examination could be embarrassing? What do you suggest as an alternative? Why shouldn't SHE have to move dorms? It couldn't be because she's full of shiat. If some dude were after me, it seems more logical for me to move somewhere, rather than move him whlle he still knows where I live.
2013-02-26 08:32:04 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but do you not get why it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating to have the "Well men can face false accusations of rape, and that's horrible and wrong" discussion in every single thread about rape, like that's relevant to the topic at hand and a totally logical thing to bring up in discussion? It almost without fail gets brought up as the corollary to stories about women being raped. "Oh yes, but men can be ACCUSED of rape, so that's something that we need to take into consideration in this story."

It is always a derailing tactic. It always implies that the woman in question is lying.


Not necessarily. I think it is impossible to divide sexual behaviour neatly into two categories: "definitely not rape" and "definitely rape". There is a h-u-u-u-g-e grey area in the middle. Drinking to relax inhibitions or to bypass consent? Seduction or coercion? Harassment or persistence? Different people can have different and wholly honest views of the same event, and those different and wholly honest views can change over time.

I very much doubt that there are many deliberate false accusations of rape. However, I think there may be a significant number of mistaken accusations of rape, where one party to an encounter perceives things, perhaps on reflection (and there is nothing wrong with changing your views on reflection) very differently from the other.

How many people here can honestly say that they have never, ever had a sexual encounter of any sort which they later regretted? Dealing with that is part of growing up, and growing as a sexual being. It cheapens the experience of those who really have suffered rape to throw the word around too loosely.
2013-02-26 08:31:44 AM  
1 votes:

meow said the dog: doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

You supporting rapists isn't really surprising.  At all.

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes,

Wow, did you just pull the "I have Black friends" but replaced Black with raped?  Awesome.


You know, you accusing him of supporting rapists when his example states the man is innocent just proves his point.
2013-02-26 08:30:20 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: liam76: If you realized he raped you, then yes it clearly was rape.

Yes, but when you're hungover and sick and it's someone you know and you're an 18 or 19 year old kid away from home the first time, your first thought is not going to be "I'll go straight  to the police, and share this incredibly scary and humiliating experience and they will believe me, and once I get through the next four hours of having my vagina, mouth and anus swabbed for fluids in the presence of at least two nurses and then have all my clothes confiscated and my body hair combed, everything is going to be ok"

Some women can pull that off. A lot of women go straight into traumatic shut down mode, and people who don't understand why that is have some major issues with empathizing with others.

liam76: Earlier where? I thought you were speaking of the scenario you listed higher up in that post.
It had nothing to do with alcohol.

That was not my description of campus violence. That was me explaining someone else's views on campus violence- views I disagreed with.


Well, guess what? That is no excuse to take away people's rights. An extremely tiny percentage of men pull that crap. Wonder Woman here wants all men to be treated as guilty because of the tiny few. That is not how we operate in this country.
2013-02-26 08:29:06 AM  
1 votes:

dready zim: Actually, my post was in support of things like slut walk in that women should be able to wear whatever skimpy clothing they need to feel empowered (skimpier the better, get REALLY empowered) and not get attacked for it, the same as a person who wears items (valuables) that make themselves attractive to a certain type of person (mugger) should be free from attack by said person. That said, be aware of where you are and who is around you and your life will run more smoothly.


Yes but you implied that skimpy clothes increases the likelihood that you will be attacked, which has never, ever been the case despite the persistent myth that it's a relevant factor. You're also implying that women going about their lives enjoying themselves is akin to going into a bad neighborhood wearing valuables. Yea, you have a right to do it, but if you get attacked you probably could have prevented it.

That's bullshiat. It's ugly, ugly bullshiat.

It also gets REALLY frustrating to hear men advocate that women display constant vigilance lest we be raped and then in the same breath be all "It's really unfair that women view all men as potential rapists."
2013-02-26 08:25:46 AM  
1 votes:
Gambill's previous experience with the Honor Court was detailed in the OCR complaint. It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend

Why would the school's honor court be the place you'd go to resolve a sexual assault allegation?
You guys think they can do something about this bullshiat speeding ticket I got?
2013-02-26 08:25:25 AM  
1 votes:
Genevieve,

Why not just jail all men right now? Only way to be safe, right? Pales in comparison to the what ifs if we let them walk the streets. According to you, that should be legal.

Chicks should have went to the police, period. I doubt the main chicks' story, and I hope the guy sues her into oblivion.
2013-02-26 08:22:24 AM  
1 votes:

Fluorescent Testicle: Sidenote to all of Fark's pro-rape white knights: You are aware that the only thing you're succeeding in is making yourselves look guilty of rape as well, right? I'm not going to say that you are rapists (obviously, most of you are just trolls), but that's what it looks like. That goes for every rape thread, by the way, not just this one.


Duke's lacrosse team would like to have a word with you.
2013-02-26 08:22:13 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love

That sucks, and yes, that should be taken seriously. A chick just shot a dude, stabbed him 27 times, and slit his throat. She had all kinds of weird emails and text messages. Does that mean all women are suspect?

I could link a bunch of stories about guys in prison for years because of false accusations of rape. Would you agree false accusations need to be taken seriously and the rights of men protected as well?

Sounds like to me, correct me if I am wrong, you think any woman, without evidence, should be able to have physical conditions and other punishments inflicted on a man and the man should have no right to a trial, because men are evil and dangerous. If anyone disagrees, then the DOJ should step in and crush them.

Yea, I'm done responding to you after this because I think I'd rather watch Jennifer Lawrence interviews on YouTube and chat with people whose worldview doesn't suck. But I'll answer your questions here.

No, not all women should be suspect because of the crimes of one woman. Nor should all men be suspect because of the crimes of one man. However? If someone reports stalking and harassment from a former boyfriend to a university authority (or if it happens in reverse, which is rare but has happened) the university has an obligation to try and keep the student safe. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have to change dorms? Sure, and I'm sorry if that happens to an innocent person. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have his class schedule arranged to keep him away from the woman who has accused him of stalking? Sure, and once again, if that happens to an innocent guy that sucks and I sympathize.

But do these inconveniences pale in comparison to what can happen when people report stalking and nothing is done to try and protect t ...


So you are sexist and believe in guilty until proven innocent and men should be punished without any proof. You think that because men rape women, their rights should be stripped, just in case.

Thanks for clearing it up. You are what is wrong with society. You don't even realize the slippery slope you are on because of your twisted views.
2013-02-26 08:10:18 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

That attitude's been deeply ingrained in our culture for hundreds of years. Do you suggest women live in a state of perpetual fear and base our lives and our freedom of movement completely around the possibility that we might be raped?

I mean, even more than we already do that is.


No, you should be aware it is a possibility and account for that. It`s illegal for a driver to run you down but does that mean you walk into the road without looking? No, you take sensible precautions.

Do you live in a state of perpetual fear and base your life and your freedom of movement completely around the possibility that we might be run over? NO, but be aware it is a possibility and you will get run over less.

There are places you are more likely to get run down and places you are less likely to get run down. Is is patriarchal social control to avoid walks on the motorway? NO It`s just sensible.

Am I advocating running people over? of course not.
Am I excusing drivers who run people over? of course not.
Am I saying it is always the pedestrians fault if they get run over? of course not
Am I saying it is always the drivers fault if they run someone over? of course not
Am I saying sensible precaution when using a road and realisation that some drivers are bad drivers and all drivers can sometimes make mistakes will lead to you getting run down less often? yes

For example don`t cross a road on a blind curve on a fast road at night wearing dark clothes. It doesn`t make you at fault if you get run over but it won`t help your chances of making it though the night without any broken bones.

You are not being suppressed if this is suggested to you.
2013-02-26 07:59:19 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.


The alleged victim. Nobody should be able to mess around with someone else's studies like that without proving a case.
2013-02-26 07:54:05 AM  
1 votes:

robohobo: orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

WHAT?! You should totally be able to run naked through a cactus forest without getting pricked, and if you do get pricked, it's all the cactus' fault you weren't wearing clothes and boots and also you got drunk and took off your clothes knowing you were about to walk through a cactus forest.


Drinking while woman = running naked through a cactus patch and complaining about being scratched.

Once again, you guys have a far shiattier view of men that I do, or than most feminists do.

Then again, if you're basing it on your own feelings about women, I can see where you'd draw the conclusion that men have a farked up perspective on women and shouldn't be trusted.
2013-02-26 07:36:53 AM  
1 votes:

liam76: Genevieve Marie: The scenario I described earlier in the thread- the one that's more indicative of most university sexual violence- would you consider that a reasonable allegation of rape?

BS.

Most university sexual violence happens when drunk, not when walking home from class.


Which is exactly the scenario I described earlier...

"Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.
So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?
Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.
At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?
That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very resistant to providing any services for women who go through this."
2013-02-26 06:41:58 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.


The original joke was fine, and I didn't watch the Oscars because its just rich people blowing each other. However, I'm assimg you meant the onion's joke about calling the little girl a coont. Either way, get over yourself.
2013-02-26 06:03:21 AM  
1 votes:
This is one of the most depressing threads I've read on Fark.
2013-02-26 05:39:15 AM  
1 votes:

Abacus9: robohobo: [25.media.tumblr.com image 850x478]

0/10


Thing is, this is based on a bit of a fallacy in thinking. We hold drunk people accountable all the time. If a drunk driver crashes into another drunk driver and kills them, the surviving driver is still charged with manslaughter even though both of them were drunk.
2013-02-26 05:14:55 AM  
1 votes:
Genevieve Marie, you kicked ass most magnificently in this thread, and for that I thank and Farky you to the utmost degree.
2013-02-26 04:59:51 AM  
1 votes:

profplump: We don't? Is rape legal for men in your country? Because it's not in mine, which is one of the ways a society communicates about what is and is not acceptable.


As has been explained multiple times, while rape is illegal, there are a TON of mixed messages sent about what is and isn't rape, and there are a bunch of people that have no problem treating victims like their actions are to blame when they get raped, and insinuating that their rape is somehow less of a rape because they were drunk, or because they'd had consensual sex with the person another time, or because the guy was totally nice and she was probably just trying to justify cheating on her boyfriend.

Yea, rape is illegal. But there's a whole lot of societal complicity in painting a very inaccurate picture of what rape is. A lot of men grow up believing that rapists are that shadowy figure that jumps out of the bushes- an obviously criminal person.

They have a much harder time thinking of their friend who is a total player and constantly gets women as a rapist. I mean, he just gets lucky and scores with hot drunk sluts, and if he gets accused of rape, it's clearly because she changed her mind after consensual sex. Or that their friend, the meek nerdy guy who is a total gentleman could be a rapist.

BSABSVR's story on this was dead accurate and worth reposting, because it's a pretty standard story:

True story: My senior year of high school, a buddy of mine who was meek and had the utmost credibility was accused of rape by a female friend of his.  We were all up in arms about it.  She had a boyfriend who was in boot camp, and he told us (and we all figured he was right) that they had gotten drunk and boned and she was looking to justify it.  Our friend was a total gentleman, and not a farking rapist.

Then a couple of years later, a female friend of both of ours woke up after a night of partying to see him sitting on her bed fingering her.  But she made the excuse that maybe she led him on, and she was drunk enough that maybe she even told him he could, and he stopped and he's a nice guy so everyone drop it.

Then a couple years later, another female friend awoke to him trying to take her pants off.  Luckily, she was sober and knew that she hadn't been hitting on him, because she had just told him the day before that she had a boyfriend and he needed to stop asking her out on a date.

I'm now 100% convinced that me and my friends were wrong about what happened that day in high school.  But yeah, at the time he sure seemed credible.
2013-02-26 04:08:51 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response.


I just wanted to point out that you're a complete farking moron with this lame-azz line of non-reasoning.  She did not once go to any police, campus, city, county, state, or otherwise.  North Carolina has no statute of limitations on felonies.  Gambill claims to have "pages and pages" of incriminating "evidence" which she claims very publicly are damning for the accused.  Although she is working overtime in her efforts to implicate the university, she still seemingly has not found the time to drop by the local police dept to file charges and give them copies of the "evidence".  If she has damning evidence, the accused could be sitting in a jail cell TOMORROW..... if only she would simply press charges.  And yet... for some strange reason.... she doesn't.

Basically, she's a moron too.
2013-02-26 03:45:02 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: But in this one? A story about the systemic cover up by a university of the reported rapes of 65 students? Any "But what about the men" discussion in this thread is bullshiat and should be recognized as such.


There are days I wish that I had never even heard the term "concern troll."

Like with "anti-rape," there are terms the existence of which imply the need of same, and it's really depressing to contemplate why we even need words for such concepts.
2013-02-26 03:15:04 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Because, Sparky, it's not about me thinking that you're an asshole. It's about tagging you as a predator for the good of the population.

See, the majority of men are not rapists. The majority of men should not be afraid of false accusations, and shouldn't be in fear that a clumsy advance should be considered sexual assault. Rather, rapists make up a small portion of the population, and they commit  multiple rapes - 6 on average. But they blend in to society, with half-jokes about rape victims asking for it, trying to diminish victims' credibility by saying that women who, say, failed to immediately contact the police* weren't legitimately raped.
And because it seems logical initially, and we non-rapists don't want to believe that there are such monsters in our midst, we say "yeah, that makes sense, she must have been lying." And the rational response from women is to fear that any man could be a rapist.

Well, shiat. Because of lies like that, both men and women are in fear. And that's wrong. Particularly when all we need to do is start identifying you. Because, if we get past our fear, you do stand out. You make jokes about rape. You demand that suspected rapists be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but simultaneously demand that rape victims be guilty of slander unless they prove the rapist committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Shiat, you identify yourselves, and, most importantly, you identify yourselves as being a  smallportion of the population. See, if we can tag you and count you, we can show that you're only about 10% or less of the population... and then no one, male or female, needs to live in fear. Because you'll be marked, and you'll be harmless.


Holy. Crap.  THIS is why I'm on Fark - I dig through a lot of crap/troll/asshat posts to find incredible diamonds like this.  Thank you for the fantastic link and amazing post.  Based on my experiences on the institutional, academic, and interpersonal side of this, the information is spot on.  We need to build a proactive culture where these people can't hide and they are called out for their awful actions.  If anyone wants to care for their friends (both male and female) they need to stand up against rapists.
2013-02-26 03:11:05 AM  
1 votes:

ciberido: Abacus9: thorthor: ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.

How very white of you.

Wtf is that supposed to mean exactly?

I think he's trying to condone rape and be racist at the same time.

It's hard to tell.  I think ExperianScaresCthulhu cranks it up to 11 in rape threads.  And there's always Poe's Law to consider, as well.


I know this is Fark and all, but it's surreal to think that the anti-rape stance is in any way controversial. Like really, do we have to argue about THIS?
2013-02-26 03:09:10 AM  
1 votes:

Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.


That's trite nonsense. No man can possibly reach adulthood without knowing that rape is wrong and that society properly detests rapists. The idea that "we do not tell our men not to rape" is as daft as "we do not tell our men not to murder". When, at school, did you ever have a class specifically telling you not to murder people?
2013-02-26 03:00:43 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response.


Or, as the article puts it


Gambill says she went to the Dean of Students Office to report an abusive ex-boyfriend for stalking in March 2012. She filed a complaint with the university's Honor Court system in the hopes that it'd be faster and less complicated than the legal system.

And then

But when the trial came in May, Gambill said the students and faculty on the Honor Court were focused on why she hadn't done anything to stop the alleged abuse. Gambill recounted one female student on the Honor Court who said that as a woman, she would have broken up with the alleged abuser after the first incident."I expected that I would be believed and trusted, and that they wouldn't doubt my story and try to devaluate my story," Gambill said.

Oh no. They actually asked her questions, and didn't take everything she said at face value before taking action which would have destroyed the ex-boyfriend's academic and employment careers. "Devaluate"?
2013-02-26 02:42:55 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Fluorescent Testicle: Fun fact: Thunderpipes (well, the character he plays, anyway) is a birther.

That is just being plain stupid. I get it, I am a conservative and hated here.

But just once, I would love an actual logical argument from you guys. You are the real trolls, not I.


Right, it's everybody else who is trolling. Not you. Honestly, I've never seen one rational or reasonable argument from you, and just about every post I've seen from you has been overwhelmingly hostile. You're either a terrible and obvious troll, or a complete idiot. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with troll.
2013-02-26 02:42:26 AM  
1 votes:

ciberido: evaned: I've been coming to Fark for about 9 1/2 years. (Actually longer, but I registered 9 1/2 years ago.) ExperianScaresCthulhu seriously just won the very impressive honor of, I think, being the first perso

I lurked for a good long while before making an account, myself.  Cheers.


I lurked for about 5 years before I started posting and I post seldom anyway. The last major discussion I posted on I got beat to a pulp on. Still like Fark for being so brutal though.
2013-02-26 02:38:59 AM  
1 votes:

Fano: liquidsiphon: Fano: Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

Not really, because it was a huge, fairly recent case. Also, it took a long time for it to be accepted as a false accuser case. Did Nancy Grace eat a bullet for the time she continued to accuse the students even after it became clear that they did not rape the stripper?
Also, you are leaving out the bigger case of say, Tawana Brawley. I do not condone rape, but I also do not condone fake rape allegations. Oh no, that's two high profile cases. I'm sure there are no others.

Fake rape accusations may exist and nobody can determine the absolute number of how many occur, but last I saw one of the most under-reported criminal acts is rape.

Well, the solution for that isn't overconviction, just to make sure you aren't letting any of those under-reported jokers get away with something. I'm sure that's not what you were implying with your post. Let's increase the reports of rape. I'm for that.


I agree with not overconvicting people, but I hardly believe that is the case. The problem is how emotionally devastating reporting a rape can be and that once you do report it, it can get get beat down by people who are protecting their own behind to keep it from getting it out.
2013-02-26 02:24:32 AM  
1 votes:

OgreMagi: The article didn't make it clear if she was naming him or not. If she was, but had not gone to the police, then there is a potential for a slander/libel case. In which case telling the truth, no matter how bad it makes the guy look, being an absolute defense.


Yes, that's right. But a lack of a conviction -- or even pressing charges or a police report -- isn't really evidence in the guy's favor.

OgreMagi: I think the university is right in their stance so long as the girl is not following through the proper legal process and getting charges filed. However, if the girl does get charges filed and the university does not give her the proper support, then her claims against the university would be true.


Again, the university's "stance" is not the problem. If it was just that they said "go file a police report or there's nothing we could do", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Genevieve Marie: But honestly? I still don't see how legal bills and difficulty finding employment even begin to compare in awfulness to having your body forcibly sexually violated. Don't get me wrong, still terrible. Still not more terrible than rape, not even by a long shot.

Worst case scenario, you're filing bankruptcy and moving away. Sucks. Not life ending.


PRISON! Really?!

If I had the choice between being ass-raped in a way that I knew wouldn't cause significant permanent physical damage or spending a decade in prison, I'm going with the ass-raping. That's not even a remotely hard decision for me. And don't think that it wouldn't be traumatic; I have no interest in that.

Maybe you'd choose differently, but I also think that you should understand where we're coming from.

ciberido: This is not the first thread in which ExperianScaresCthulhu has been derpy about rape.


I've been coming to Fark for about 9 1/2 years. (Actually longer, but I registered 9 1/2 years ago.) ExperianScaresCthulhu seriously just won the very impressive honor of, I think, being the first person I've ever put on my ignore list.
2013-02-26 02:23:12 AM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: And she probably had a lot of "help" coming to that conclusion from the school.  I find it significant that the assistant dean of students in charge of sexual assault matters is on this girl's side in the Dept. of Ed. complaint, after recently leaving her job due to disagreement about how it should be done.


FFS
Why isnt the NUMBER 1 issue reporting the crime to the police and DA and assisting with the investigation of the crime?
Why isnt the NUMBER 2 issue collecting data and making it public so prospective students can properly assess the risk of one university vs another.
(this school has 2.9 reported rapes per 1000 students, this school has 0.1 per 1000, etc.)
(of course, this might cause more cover ups instead of factual reporting)
(of course, schools found guilty of lying and covering up rapes could lose all federal funding, which would solve everything)
(of course, tons of people would have all kinds of problems with this)
(where did the slashes go??)
2013-02-26 02:19:29 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love


That sucks, and yes, that should be taken seriously. A chick just shot a dude, stabbed him 27 times, and slit his throat. She had all kinds of weird emails and text messages. Does that mean all women are suspect?

I could link a bunch of stories about guys in prison for years because of false accusations of rape. Would you agree false accusations need to be taken seriously and the rights of men protected as well?

Sounds like to me, correct me if I am wrong, you think any woman, without evidence, should be able to have physical conditions and other punishments inflicted on a man and the man should have no right to a trial, because men are evil and dangerous. If anyone disagrees, then the DOJ should step in and crush them.
2013-02-26 02:11:37 AM  
1 votes:

evaned: Genevieve Marie: I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Oh that's too much of flamebait for me to not respond to. Do you really think that's all that it is? No acknowledgement that even a failed false accusation could lead to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and significant problems getting a job for years? (I had a friend who faced the latter issue after not being convicted of anything.) That a successful one will lead a decade or two of prison, during which with a depressingly high probability (and a depressingly low amount of care from most people) the accused will face the very crime he was convicted of?

I don't want to minimize the crime of rape; it's traumatic mentally and often physically. But, at the same time, there are lots of women out there who, 5 or 10 years after a rape, are leading happy, productive, healthy lives; who are starting families and working on their careers. How many people convicted of rape can you say that about?

I don't want to comment about what the overall balance society-wide should be between the accuser and accused, or whether rape or false accusations are worse at that level. But you being dismissive of the damage caused by a false accusation is no less ridiculous than a lot of the stuff you are replying to.


Well, in this particular case, no legal charges were filed and the young man in question has not had to hire any lawyers or face arrest, trial or anything of the sort. And the original comment I was responding to was related to this case.

But honestly? I still don't see how legal bills and difficulty finding employment even begin to compare in awfulness to having your body forcibly sexually violated. Don't get me wrong, still terrible. Still not more terrible than rape, not even by a long shot.

Worst case scenario, you're filing bankruptcy and moving away. Sucks. Not life ending.
2013-02-26 02:08:54 AM  
1 votes:

evaned: OgreMagi: If she's not willing to go through the legal process (maybe she's just a psycho ex-girlfriend), then she is committing slander and libel which damn well is an honor code violation.

I think you need to look up what slander and libel are. Hint: there are more than those two options, and the burden of proof required to establish each comes up again. (Even if the guy was found not guilty, it would not be a foregone conclusion that she would be committing slander.) Also: she was barely even defaming him by any stretch, as she hasn't publicly named him.

And as others have said many times, this article is less about the rape, and more about the quality of the school's response, and even more about the possible retaliation on the part of the school to the DOE charges. We've only seen one side of the story, but potentially UNC could be the next recipient (after PSU) of The Catholic Church Award For Distinguished Institutional Response to Sexual Crimes.


The article didn't make it clear if she was naming him or not.  If she was, but had not gone to the police, then there is a potential for a slander/libel case.  In which case telling the truth, no matter how bad it makes the guy look, being an absolute defense.  And even if she did not state the guy's name, she made it clear it was her ex-boyfriend, which is probably just as good as naming him.

As for the university's stance.  The girl is going around saying someone raped her.  There is no police report, there is no case, there are no charges.  I think the university is right in their stance so long as the girl is not following through the proper legal process and getting charges filed.  However, if the girl does get charges filed and the university does not give her the proper support, then her claims against the university would be true.

At this time when a woman screams "rape" or "child abuse", there is an automatic assumption of guilt, even when the evidence shows the exact opposite (Duke Lacrosse, anyone?).  I want rapists in jail.  I also want people who make false charges in jail.  Since she has not filed charges, I'm going to have to go with the "psycho ex-girlfriend" story.  I'm ready to change that stance depending on how things play out.
2013-02-26 02:07:29 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.


Oh that's too much of flamebait for me to not respond to. Do you really think that's all that it is? No acknowledgement that even a failed false accusation could lead to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and significant problems getting a job for years? (I had a friend who faced the latter issue after not being convicted of anything.) That a successful one will lead a decade or two of prison, during which with a depressingly high probability (and a depressingly low amount of care from most people) the accused will face the very crime he was convicted of?

I don't want to minimize the crime of rape; it's traumatic mentally and often physically. But, at the same time, there are lots of women out there who, 5 or 10 years after a rape, are leading happy, productive, healthy lives; who are starting families and working on their careers. How many people convicted of rape can you say that about?

I don't want to comment about what the overall balance society-wide should be between the accuser and accused, or whether rape or false accusations are worse at that level. But you being dismissive of the damage caused by a false accusation is no less ridiculous than a lot of the stuff you are replying to.
2013-02-26 02:01:11 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Fluorescent Testicle: Fun fact: Thunderpipes (well, the character he plays, anyway) is a birther.

That is just being plain stupid. I get it, I am a conservative and hated here.

But just once, I would love an actual logical argument from you guys. You are the real trolls, not I.


That was an impressive deceleration from bad-ass alpha male to victim over the course of this thread.
2013-02-26 01:56:38 AM  
1 votes:

thorthor: ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.

How very white of you.

Wtf is that supposed to mean exactly?


I think he's trying to condone rape and be racist at the same time.
2013-02-26 01:55:34 AM  
1 votes:

Abacus9: False accusations are a bigger problem than rape


I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.
2013-02-26 01:53:17 AM  
1 votes:
Fun fact: Thunderpipes (well, the character he plays, anyway) is a birther.
2013-02-26 01:50:50 AM  
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: ciberido: Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred).  There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it.  Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Ah, the good old "false accusations of rape are just as big a problem as rape itself" argument.  I always enjoy the classics.

False accusations are a bigger problem than rape


And... you're a bigger troll than Thunderpipes.

The taint is a deeper stain.

bwahaha
2013-02-26 01:49:12 AM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: I'm not sure if "how many times someone was accused of something in the past" is admissible as evidence in a court.


I only have a GED in law, but I think most of the time it isn't. But what it can do is prompt a more thorough investigation to check back over the old cases to see if anything is missed, think extra hard about if there's anything else that you can do.

Thunderpipes: She wanted the guy relocated and a type of restraining order on him. Don't prance around and pretend this has no impact on the guy because it is not in the court system.


I don't entirely agree with Genevieve, but I do think she has a point there. Those are non-criminal sanctions, they do have a different burden of proof, and what's more, that's rightfully so because the consequences are very different. Don't pretend like the university saying "you get that dorm over there" (heck, we didn't even really get absolute pick of what dorm we wanted) and perhaps some type of restraining order (I don't remember seeing that in the articles, but whatever) are similar to being thrown in jail.

The legal system is based around balancing acts between the rights of the accused and the rights of the accuser. When the consequences are substantially less severe for the accused, to shift the balance back the accuser gets a lower burden of proof.
2013-02-26 01:48:24 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: China White Tea: Potter82: I'm really confused by this article. Why is a case involving sexual assault being dealt with a university and not by the criminal justice system? This statement almost makes it sound like she chose this venue:

"It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend." 

For the love of god why?This sort of thing is so far beyond a "Honor Court" its ridiculous. Take it out of clown shoe court and bring it to a real court with actual real adults where the alleged rapist will have to worry about more than just his reputation.

Your assessment is accurate, but it's also beside the point.  All of that is merely background to the actual story here, which is that, when she complained to a higher authority about the school's mishandling of sexual assault cases, the clown court charged her with some clown-crime in what is obviously a retaliatory fashion.

No, She didn't go to the police, instead cried to the college to get her ex boyfriend punished. They did not believe her, now she is mad and trying to hurt the college. Once again, you assume the guy is guilty and the University mishandled it. Guilty until proven innocent....


Look, I get that you're only every so slightly more literate than most of my meals, but what I actually pointed out was that the guilt or innocence of her would-be attacker is farkING IRRELEVANT to this particular story.

Girl files complaint against school with federal agency.
School retaliates against girl. 

That's the actual core issue here.
2013-02-26 01:41:18 AM  
1 votes:

BSABSVR: Genevieve Marie: Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.

Yeah.  The only reason I even dropped a counter argument is because of the contingents in these threads who say thing like "The major issue with sex crimes is that men are constantly falsely accused because 1.) Duke Lacrosse 2.) Tawana Brawley 3.) This cat from my dorm."


No, I'm glad you brought it up. More men who have those stories need to tell them.
2013-02-26 01:38:18 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.


Yeah.  The only reason I even dropped a counter argument is because of the contingents in these threads who say thing like "The major issue with sex crimes is that men are constantly falsely accused because 1.) Duke Lacrosse 2.) Tawana Brawley 3.) This cat from my dorm."
2013-02-26 01:37:11 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: And yes, it would probably help if they kept internal files and tracked those cases, so if the same rapist's name keeps coming up again and again in these types of cases, they know that moving forward with expulsion or turning him over to law enforcement is probably a good idea.


I'm not sure if "how many times someone was accused of something in the past" is admissible as evidence in a court.
2013-02-26 01:33:52 AM  
1 votes:
 silverjets: Why is she letting a student court even be involved?  Shouldn't a REAL court be handling her rape case?

Thank you - allows me to address the underlying problem:  When/why did the purpose of colleges deteriorate to the point that it is no longer to impart knowledge to providing a "life experience"?

OLD DAYS:
1.  They sell a product (knowledge), the price and quality of which is highly variable.
2.  People decide to purchase that product, pay for it, take it with them.
3.  If capable and diligent, they get a piece of paper attesting to their purchase of the entire product; if not capable and diligent, they get a piece of paper that shows that they purchased only a part of the product.
4.  While in the process of purchasing the product, they took care of themselves.

NEWER TIMES:
1.  They (many, not all) "market" a product of dubious value ("life experience"), the quality of which has become, in many cases, laughable.
2.  People, some through real desire, others through irresponsibility,  decide to partake of the product since someone else will frequently pay for it.
3.  Whether capable and diligent or incapable and slothful, most get a piece of paper attesting to their having been their long enough.  Even if capable and diligent,  everyone gets the same piece of paper.
4. While acquiring said "product", we provide "support" for the slackards through such methods as "social integration",  "multi-faceted growth development", and wiping their asses because that's what little snowflakes deserve - reinforcement of their irresponsibility.

To restate the question:  What the fark is the current purpose of colleges and universities?

/3 degrees, undergrad and 2 grad;  ask me why I didn't get the 4th.  Only outside help was GI Bill (('60's/' 70's not much):  line cook, fast food, grease monkey, etc.)

//First rant over.

///How do you get away from alumni associations?   To them: I paid the universities for their products, did not and never will join one of your silly little feel good groups,  you will get no money from me upon my death.  LEAVE ME ALONE!

////Angry much? No, but occasionally.


/First rant over
2013-02-26 01:29:55 AM  
1 votes:
I'm really confused by this article. Why is a case involving sexual assault being dealt with a university and not by the criminal justice system? This statement almost makes it sound like she chose this venue:

"It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend." 

For the love of god why?This sort of thing is so far beyond a "Honor Court" its ridiculous. Take it out of clown shoe court and bring it to a real court with actual real adults where the alleged rapist will have to worry about more than just his reputation.
2013-02-26 01:28:38 AM  
1 votes:

BSABSVR: Genevieve Marie: People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.

Which is why the "my buddy in college was an awesome and funny guy and got falsely accused and I know this because he was my pal and therefore awesome and above such things" anecdote doesn't hold a lot of sway with me. It's certainly possible that decent dude met a super unstable woman, but sometimes that decent dude is secretly a major asshole.

It's also possible that the "unstable" woman who is acting way less cool than she was last night might be acting that way on account of being raped.


Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.
2013-02-26 01:27:08 AM  
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: biatches


It takes a lot of work to intentionally miss the point that intentionally and completely.  Have yourself a Mountain Dew.


Genevieve Marie: People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.


Which is why the "my buddy in college was an awesome and funny guy and got falsely accused and I know this because he was my pal and therefore awesome and above such things" anecdote doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.  It's certainly possible that decent dude met a super unstable woman, but sometimes that decent dude is secretly a major asshole.

It's also possible that the "unstable" woman who is acting way less cool than she was last night might be acting that way on account of being raped.
2013-02-26 01:25:19 AM  
1 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
Ah, the old classic of false equivalency. The "Can you prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt? No? Then be prepared to be prosecuted you lying slut" idea.

False rape accusations are relatively rare. They do not happen at nearly  the same scale as actual rape. This has been pretty well documented. And the idea that a victim should automatically go on trial for reporting a crime is malicious and farked up and not at all compatible with a fair criminal justice system.

If someone gets caught telling obvious falsehoods about someone else, they can be taken to civil court, and that's as it should be. But no, the idea that we should threaten anyone who reports a crime with prosecution if their story can't be proved is such bullshiat.

at no point in my statement did i suggest any such equivalency.
if that is how you deflect the question, by misstating or purposely changing the intention of the comment, there is no point in discussing it with you.

civil court? lol.
nice.
how about perjury?
i'm not talking about innocent case of mistaken identity, i am talking about harmful prosecution
2013-02-26 01:16:10 AM  
1 votes:

thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.


c.suite101.com

How very white of you.
2013-02-26 01:14:30 AM  
1 votes:

ciberido: Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred).  There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it.  Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Ah, the good old "false accusations of rape are just as big a problem as rape itself" argument.  I always enjoy the classics.


False accusations are a bigger problem than rape, because there really is no recovery for the falsely accused.  There is no support network.  The taint is a deeper stain.
2013-02-26 01:14:28 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very r ...



Help to do what? Counseling? Sure. Take a semester off? OK. Declare someone guilty of a felony without a trial in a real court where he has legal counsel and due process? No. Have him kicked out of school based on that declaration? No, again.

UNC has decided not to allow sexual assault claims to go before the honor court anymore. That's a good decision regardless of whether they got things right in this case or not.
2013-02-26 01:12:36 AM  
1 votes:

BSABSVR: JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.

True story: My senior year of high school, a buddy of mine who was meek and had the utmost credibility was accused of rape by a female friend of his.  We were all up in arms about it.  She had a boyfriend who was in boot camp, and he told us (and we all figured he was right) that they had gotten drunk and boned and she was looking to justify it.  Our friend was a total gentleman, and not a farking rapist.

Then a couple of years later, a female friend of both of ours woke up after a night of partying to see him sitting on her bed fingering her.  But she made the excuse that maybe she led him on, and she was drunk enough that maybe she even told him he could, and he stopped and he's a nice guy so everyone drop it.

Then a couple years later, another female friend awoke to him trying to take her pants off.  Luckily, she was sober and knew that she hadn't been hitting on him, because she had just told him the day before that she had a boyfriend and he needed to stop asking her out on a date.

I'm now 100% convinced that me and my friends were wrong about what happened that day in high school.  But yeah, at the time he sure seemed credible.


That's actually a pretty common occurrence. That's why it's pretty generally understood that one of the reasons the rape rate is so high is because the same rapist generally commits multiple rapes. Often, that's what it also takes for a conviction- multiple cases that establish a pattern against someone.

People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.
2013-02-26 01:12:05 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.


If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.
2013-02-26 01:10:35 AM  
1 votes:
Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies. My wife was a victim of rape (before we were married) at a college we both attended. The rapist was eventually caught and it was found he had raped at least 5 other women. Sure give them the ridiculous amount of appeals etc.. but if they are Proven guilty after that kill the f*cking bastards. (Or biatches if that is the situation). Rape steals life from a person in that it is something they can never forget. No mercy for them if they are legally convicted. Say I'm a libtard-true. Say I don't understand the cry wolf theory-possibly also true. fark them. All convicted rapists deserve to die.
2013-02-26 01:05:34 AM  
1 votes:
I missed the part in the article where it says the guy was convicted of rape before an actual court that saw evidence. Who knows if it happened or not?
2013-02-26 01:04:38 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: ParagonComplex: Am I an asshole for wondering how said rape transpired? More specifically, if it happened at a frat party, she got too much to drink, and things went sour? If so, although still a terrible thing, live and learn, own up to your own shortcomings, and carry on

Seriously? If someone is raped while drunk, they should just accept that being raped is the price one pays for having the audacity to imbibe a legal substance?


i think he is saying that if he drank until he passed out at a gay bar, he'd have only himself to blame for any intrusion into his personal body parts while in that state of intoxication.
2013-02-26 01:03:34 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: ExperianScaresCthulhu: So shiat didn't go her way, now she gets to defame this dude forever. What the fk ever.

It's only defamation if you believe she was lying. As there is no evidence that this is the case, I have to believe you're basing  this assertion on your own biases.


Yes, these are my own biases.

The court she chose to go before didn't rule in her favor.  She doesn't get a free pass.  This is what is going down: she didn't get her way, so now she is defaming dude forever.  She's playing 'take backs'.  There's no evidence that she's telling the truth, either.

You write for women's mags (among others) professionally.  You're a professional feminist.  You get paid for it.  More power to you for doing what you love and making a living out of it. That's awesome. Own up to your own biases.

She wants to continue down this road, she needs to press real charges instead of defaming this dude forever.  And if that doesn't go her way, she'll still defame this dude forever.  Such is life.  But at least she has her day in real court instead of continuing to try to use the court of public opinion to make this guy pay for whatever.
2013-02-26 12:59:58 AM  
1 votes:

Philbb: Popular Opinion: ...these personality types are not exactly beacons of truth.
also, research aside, the "typical college rapist" is a student who probably gets away with it 90% of the time, due to the intoxicated state of their victims, so i doubt you have actually been "interviewing" or studying the types of predators we are talking about (in this case).


I was responding to "the few who do won't listen" which has next to nothing to do with "the 'typical college rapist'".

I was just pointing out that the comment that guys who do need to be told won't listen "because they know exactly what the fark they're doing. " was too broad. That there are many who really believe that they are the victims and it's "her" fault because "she" was asking for it.


i'm sure there are real sociopaths in the sample, but most (imho) just learned to do whatever they want, as long as they think they can get away with it.
they grow up knowing dad cheats on mom and his tax return...
certainly no fear of eternal damnation lol....
frightening and sad how common this is....
2013-02-26 12:58:14 AM  
1 votes:
I have a friend who was accused of rape when he was in high school. It was a mutual encounter, but for months the allegations and suspicions followed him. It was a small town, so he really couldn't go out, without people threatening to hurt him.

She eventually recanted, (I can't remember why)  But he has a big vendetta against any rape accusations, due to his experiences
2013-02-26 12:57:12 AM  
1 votes:

ParagonComplex: Am I an asshole for wondering how said rape transpired? More specifically, if it happened at a frat party, she got too much to drink, and things went sour? If so, although still a terrible thing, live and learn, own up to your own shortcomings, and carry on


Seriously? If someone is raped while drunk, they should just accept that being raped is the price one pays for having the audacity to imbibe a legal substance?
2013-02-26 12:56:25 AM  
1 votes:

ciberido: Genevieve Marie: Kaenneth: I know that women lie. Had a girl accuse me of 'undressing her with my eyes' in high school. No clue who she was, and I wasn't, because I'm gay.

So one woman, one time, misread the way you were looking at her and accused you of doing something rude but legal and your conclusion from this one relatively harmless interaction with one member of the gender that makes up half the human race is "Women are psycho liars who should be locked in camps"?

Sounds legit.

I don't know why, but I've noticed that for some reason some gay men make for the worst misogynists.  I mean, most gay men are fine and you usually get a lot of support for women from the lbgtq community, but you every once in a while run into these crazy gay men who just have a NUCLEAR hatred of women, all women.

I have no idea why, and since this is merely personal observation it has no scientific credibility.  I have to wonder, though, if maybe it's about time someone did a study or something.



How is telling the truth evidence of nuclear hatred of women?  'Oh noes, implying that women aren't always truthful about claims of sexual harassment/rape is the same as misogyny'

Come on, man.  Or woman.

Some men rape -- and some women lie about being raped.  This is getting into 'women don't commit domestic violence' and 'women are not pedophiles' territory.

I take that back; this is getting into 'no white woman would ever agree to have sex with a black man' territory, and we all saw how that ended up going.
2013-02-26 12:55:20 AM  
1 votes:
ok this has been fun  but I gotta get up early in the morning.  i'll check back tomorrow to see how deep the rabbit hole went and who I need to add to my 'women hating/pro-rape' list of GOP shills on fark.
2013-02-26 12:55:00 AM  
1 votes:

bigwf2007: pudding7: Weaver95: bigwf2007: So has anyone actually been convicted of or even criminally charged with rape in this case?

the article doesn't make that point clear...but this isn't about the rape case.  this is about how the school handled allegations of rape, which was to apparently cover it up and pretend it doesn't happen on campus.

How could the school cover it up when the police were notified and a report was filed?

Actually, as someone later pointed oout to me there's a link in this article that says she chose to go to honor court rather than the police because it would be quicker and less complicated. So the answer is no, no one was ever charged with a crime.


Quicker and less complicated to do what?  Send the guy to prison?  Oh wait, she doesn't know who did it, so what exactly was she hoping the Honor Court would do more quickly and with fewer complications?
2013-02-26 12:54:42 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: The honor court does nothing, because they're a group of students who can't do rape kits, can't question witnesses, can't explore motives, and can't say one way or the other whether something happened or not?

And because malicious gossip tends to not be a violation of college honor codes? (If it was. most of the greek systems would have been dismantled long ago)

The honor court is a group of students. It was the university who chose to give them this authority and chose to allow them to execute this decision. It should be VERY clear that a student participating in a case against the university should not be considered in violation of the honor code for choosing to do so.


I completely agree that she should not be in violation of the honor code for making a case against the university and if their charges against her are in retaliation, that's absolutely indefensible. However, if their charges against her are because she is effectively continuing to accuse this guy of rape, then I see that angle as well. As I've said, it's pretty complex and she seems to have gotten some seriously poor treatment at the hands of the school but I really don't think it is black and white - in part because of the hypothetical which is effectively identical to the real situation in the eyes of the "honor court".

I had a friend of mine in college brought before a tribunal for an alleged attack. It's a bullshiat kangaroo court. He went through weeks of hell before finally being exonerated. His investigation wasn't a secret either although it officially was.
2013-02-26 12:52:41 AM  
1 votes:

bigwf2007: pudding7: Weaver95: bigwf2007: So has anyone actually been convicted of or even criminally charged with rape in this case?

the article doesn't make that point clear...but this isn't about the rape case.  this is about how the school handled allegations of rape, which was to apparently cover it up and pretend it doesn't happen on campus.

How could the school cover it up when the police were notified and a report was filed?

Actually, as someone later pointed oout to me there's a link in this article that says she chose to go to honor court rather than the police because it would be quicker and less complicated. So the answer is no, no one was ever charged with a crime.


Quicker and less complicated?  Really?

So shiat didn't go her way, now she gets to defame this dude forever.  What the fk ever.
2013-02-26 12:51:16 AM  
1 votes:

China White Tea: HoratioGates: IgG4: Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

That's not how campus law works.  There is a 'legal' system in place and most campus issues are resolved there.  It's like binding arbitration, only with more rape.

Is this actually the case?  Sure, they have their "Honor Court", but I'm pretty sure they can't actually deny anyone who has the good sense to blow off some shiatheels looking for resume fluff and bring in the professionals.


Most universities have their own campus cops.  They're the first cops that a victim will turn to because a) they're handy and b) the victim knows and trusts them.  Their main job is to  steer victims into the campus "justice" system.  Universities hammer into students' heads that these "resources" are all students need.

I guarantee you these women had conversations something like this:

"Hello, campus cop!  I want to report a rape."

"Well, honey, I'm here for you... go ahead."

"No, I wanna report it to the city police!"

"You don't want to do that.  Them rape exams suck.  It will take months. Defense attorney will drag you through the mud.  We can handle this faster and make it much easier on you. We don't even have to tell your parents!"
2013-02-26 12:51:15 AM  
1 votes:

JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.



Pretty much this.

/how soon people forget the story posted just a couple days ago of the guy paying child support to a woman who cheated on him while he was deployed.. and one of the excuses she pulled out of her ass was that she was raped
//or the story of Crystal Mangum or Katelyn Faber ... or Desiree Washington
// a charge of rape should never be a conviction of rape all by itself
2013-02-26 12:46:44 AM  
1 votes:

nekulor: Rape cases are inherently fuzzy, and the physical evidence is completely biological and degrades in, at the most, 1 month's time.


I'm probably going to take so much flak for this, but I hopefully I don't come out as appearing to defend rapists because that's not what I really intend. But I think that this really contributes to a lot of the disagreements between people. (Obviously not all of it, and not what's really a cloak for outright misogyny or (less commonly) misandry.)

I mean, think about it this way. Suppose you're on the jury for a shoplifting case. When the police caught the defendant, he had the object which was allegedly stolen. The shopowner testifies that the defendant left the store without paying. The defendant testifies that he did, in fact, pay.

That's all the evidence you get. There are no other witnesses. You don't get to see an accounting of the day's sales to determine if the item's value is missing, or the defendant's credit card history. There's no security footage.

Do you find him guilty?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. Now, I don't know what sort of evidence is in play for the majority of rape cases, but I can certainly imagine that in a large number of cases -- perhaps even a majority -- wind up like this. (Obviously the unusual "snatched by someone in the bushes" scenario will often leave lots of other physical trauma, but isn't date rape the most common scenario? I bet that you wouldn't get that sort of thing most of the time. And in those scenarios, even a rape kit just gives evidence that the two people had sex; it says nothing about consent.)  

So what do you do? It seems like a lose-lose situation. I don't like the idea of convicting someone in a case where almost the sole evidence for an essential component of the crime is what a witness says happened, even if that witness appears very credible.

So what do you do? If you take my I'm-not-actually-sure-how-strawman-this-is position, then most rapists walk. If you side with the accuser, you (according to that position) are depriving the defendant of his civil rights and not giving him a fair trial.

Now, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's more physical evidence than I'd assume; if so, perhaps the fact that this isn't public knowledge is part of the problem. But if not.... it seems like a very thorny scenario.

(And then of course there are weird hopefully-hypothetical scenarios that the part of me that thought about going to law school would love to read about. Like, if Alice is totally smashed and Bob has sex with her, he's raping her. What happens if Bob is also smashed? Are they raping each other? If so, can Bob purposely go have a ton of drinks and then use a threat of mutual prosecution as a "defense"?)
2013-02-26 12:45:09 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: She's protected his identity as much as she can be reasonably expected to do. She has not named him to the media. Does the fact that he wasn't found guilty by the honor court mean she should shrug her shoulders and go "Ah well, guess that's it then. I should probably STFU now and stop trying to pursue any justice for myself."


she should absolutely pursue justice for herself. I am just saying that I can see where this "honor court" is coming from. They found the guy innocent. No rape happened to their minds. She is still talking about this rape she endured at the hands of a guy (innocent to them) that cannot possibly be a secret thereby dragging the reputation of a exonerated (to them) student's name through the mud. In effect, to them, she is making baseless accusations about this student.

Picture this: some girl agrees to have sex with some guy and regrets it the next day. Brings the guy before the court and they find him innocent as the sex was consensual. She goes on to talk about this attack, talks about how she was attacked by the guy she was with at the party - doesn't mention him by name but hundreds of people know who she was dancing with... what does the "honor court" do in that case?

To the "honor court" this is effectively no different.

She needs to go to the police and get this guy prosecuted. That is how she gets justice now. She can get UNC to change their policies and offer more counseling but this guy is not going to be punished by UNC.
2013-02-26 12:43:02 AM  
1 votes:

Fallout Boy: The math just doesn't work out.


pff, that's not what I was saying and don't put words in my mouth.
The % of men who actually commit rape is, I hope, low.
The number of men who laugh it off, assume the woman must have wanted it, led him on, is lying, etc - that's what leads to the small % of rapists being able to get away with it.

And, especially in a thread about rape in college, we should remember that most rapes aren't a guy crawling into a window at 3am - they're at a high school or college party where the boys/men specifically plan their actions.  They make sure the woman they have picked gets drunk, gets separated from her friends, and then they get together and rape her.  I've heard of it happening dozens of times from both victim and perpetrator.
2013-02-26 12:42:39 AM  
1 votes:

China White Tea: And really, I have to know: Who thought it would be a good idea to let some idiot children without with no significant legal education or bar licensing act as judges, juries, and legal counsel for sexual assault cases?


Apparently the "victim" did.
2013-02-26 12:41:41 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Rape is bad. Dude does it, he needs his ass kicked hard and thrown in jail. Everyone should agree on that. But there needs to be heavy laws in place to protect guys too. The Duke case was a spectacular example of how lopsided the justice system is against men.


You're probably not even worth responding to, but disgusting and obnoxious misogyny aside, do you not realize how insanely stupid it is to use a case that got thrown out and where the prosecutor was disbarred and all the men were exonerated as an example of how unfair the justice system is to men?
2013-02-26 12:36:56 AM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: Genevieve Marie: skullkrusher: Think about it this way, this guy is innocent as far as the "honor court" is concerned. He has done nothing wrong in their eyes and this girl keeps talking about her attack to the press - an attack which did not happen, again, according to their findings - thereby denigrating the reputation of an innocent student. How else are they supposed to act?

Once again with feeling: she has not named her rapist. She has not mentioned his name publicly at all. All of her public  criticism has been directed at the university's handling of her case. Read the article.

do you think this guy's identity is a secret? The guy she dated all of freshman year. Currently lives across the street from her on campus. Read other articles.


pay attention - the issue is the university's handling of her case.  she hasn't named him, she hasn't mentioned him in public.
2013-02-26 12:36:19 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: I do find it odd all these magical rapists are running around, not even getting kicked out of college, let alone charged with a crime, and they are all guilty. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey.

 You should look into some of the studies that have been done about proclivity to rape. There have been quite a few studies done that show that many young men don't recognize rape as problematic if the survey calls it something else.

Some women have problems identifying it as such right away too. Social conditioning influences the way we think more than many of us like to admit.

There are a lot of scholarly articles about men's attitudes towards rape on google scholar, should you care to explore them. This is also a pretty good personal account of the kind of rape that goes on where men don't get charged with a crime: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/laurie-penny-its-nic e -to-think-that-only-evil-men-are-rapists--that-its-only-pantomime-vill ains-with-knives-in-alleyways-but-the-reality-is-different-8079403.htm l


Say no. Go. Tell an adult. Problem solved. Hell, a chick can be into it, bang a dude, regret it the next day, and the guy is guilty because she was drunk, even though he had no reason to suspect trickery. How fair is that? How would a she-beast like it if guys could wake up next to Fatty McFatbottom with a hangover, and just cry rape because they were drunk (and the chick was guilty and had her life ruined no matter what)?

Once again, if these women were raped, why are they going to the damn college and not the police? Besides head wound girl of course, I think she did?

Rape is bad. Dude does it, he needs his ass kicked hard and thrown in jail. Everyone should agree on that. But there needs to be heavy laws in place to protect guys too. The Duke case was a spectacular example of how lopsided the justice system is against men.
2013-02-26 12:36:02 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: I'd be cautious of using pedophiles as reasonable examples of all rapists in your research.


I understand that, but it was the most disturbing thing that I could come up with, that I've actually heard/read,  to illustrate my point. Some, not all, rapists are able to justify in their own minds that what they did wasn't wrong. The mental gymnastics they use to reach that point are often very impressive, but it's almost impossible (as far as I know) for them to see it any other way.

/some serial killers also justify their actions by claiming it was the victims fault.
2013-02-26 12:35:35 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: skullkrusher: Think about it this way, this guy is innocent as far as the "honor court" is concerned. He has done nothing wrong in their eyes and this girl keeps talking about her attack to the press - an attack which did not happen, again, according to their findings - thereby denigrating the reputation of an innocent student. How else are they supposed to act?

Once again with feeling: she has not named her rapist. She has not mentioned his name publicly at all. All of her public  criticism has been directed at the university's handling of her case. Read the article.


do you think this guy's identity is a secret? The guy she dated all of freshman year. Currently lives across the street from her on campus. Read other articles.
2013-02-26 12:35:17 AM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Voiceofreason01: The fact that she tried to resolve the problem in university honor court and not through the police is unusual.

Not so. The University Honor Court had jurisdiction over sexual assault and harassment claims and most students chose not to pursue criminal charges:
The only recourse for students who opted not to go to the court was to seek criminal charges, which most chose not to do, Manning said. That means most perpetrators would go completely unpunished.
The fact that she tried to resolve the problem this way and not through the police is entirelynormal, even if we disagree with the wisdom and result.


Nowhere does it say a person must pursue an allegation of rape through the honor court or is a student precluded from seeking criminal and civil recourse from her attacker.

/your reflexive attack to ward anyone who questions anything about this set of circumstance makes you appear more than a little unhinged.
//does my response make me a sociopath too?
2013-02-26 12:34:18 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order

I grew up in liberal parts of California and Oregon, but I played sports so I was able to mix with other young men outside student government and model united nations, and I knew way back in junior high that boys will do whatever they can get away with.
I could tell you story after story of how men rape women, abuse them, and yet since they go to school together or work together, the situation is hushed up or covered up.  The women know their lives and relationships will be ruined if they go public, and since the men know this too they suffer no consequences.
Man, grow up and find out what happens in the real world.

Excuse you?  Your statement was "we do not tell men not to rape."  I pointed out that, at least since the early 90's, the US culture, and in particular our public school system, has gone out of its way to hammer into young mens' minds that no means no, and often maybe means no.  You came back with stories of jocks who choose to ignore all the authority figures telling them not to touch other peoples' no-no spots.  That's like saying murder isn't against the law because you keep hearing about serial killers on the news.


Our culture at the very least excuses rape, and does everything possible to cover up allegations unless the media can sell more ads by sensationalizing a particular case.  You are talking about the weak
"get consent for every escalation of sex" campaign which has nothing to do with reality.  A flimsy commercial you admit is something you only remember from 10 years ago has nothing to do with the reality facing women today.
Go outside and talk to women.  They don't give a shiat that you are scared to ask them out.  They want rapists to be held accountable in this society and you refraining from asking for a date isn't contributing much.
2013-02-26 12:32:45 AM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: Think about it this way, this guy is innocent as far as the "honor court" is concerned. He has done nothing wrong in their eyes and this girl keeps talking about her attack to the press - an attack which did not happen, again, according to their findings - thereby denigrating the reputation of an innocent student. How else are they supposed to act?


Once again with feeling: she has not named her rapist. She has not mentioned his name publicly at all. All of her public  criticism has been directed at the university's handling of her case. Read the article.
2013-02-26 12:30:53 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: ..because she had no choice...she didn't like that and wanted another option. she was told 'honor court or nothing' and to STFU about it, not to mention it to the press and get over it.


what else is a university to do? Well, aside from counseling and victim assistance, what are they supposed to do from a disciplinary perspective?

Think about it this way, this guy is innocent as far as the "honor court" is concerned. He has done nothing wrong in their eyes and this girl keeps talking about her attack to the press - an attack which did not happen, again, according to their findings - thereby denigrating the reputation of an innocent student. How else are they supposed to act?

The whole idea of rape trial by university is absurd but I can't think of another way to do it. Were they remiss in their findings? Do they not do enough for rape victims? Sure, it's possible - even likely - but how else could this go down given what has already happened in terms of his "trial" exonerating him?

Weaver95: not to mention that the 'court' was run by ill trained fellow students who did a sloppy job and might very well have let their own bias decide the 'case'. no appeals either, and don't talk about it to the press or you can kiss your degree goodbye.


she chose that route. She could have gone to the authorities. Still could. Get the guy convicted and then the university wouldn't have a leg to stand on in terms of the "harassment" they now accuse her of
2013-02-26 12:28:41 AM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Damn, you really know your imaginary history!


Which part is imaginary? That Clayton Williams really said that? That it cost him the election? That Ann Richards won because of that? That George W. Bush was able to run against her afterwards because the GOP had no incumbent in the race? That George W. Bush could never have been taken seriously enough to run for, let alone become, President, without first being Governor of a State or a U.S. Senator? That George W. Bush's two terms, which could not have happened without that joke, seriously messed up this nation?
2013-02-26 12:26:11 AM  
1 votes:

doglover: mesmer242: The stupidity of having undergrads in charge of a miniature legal system, especially one that covers felonies, is astounding.

Real cops don't even need a BA, do they?


Judges need a law degree in most jurisdictions, as do lawyers. Juries obviously don't, but are generally given instructions by the judge.

From what I can tell from the description of the "honor court", they got rid of the idea of lawyers and police officers, and made a bunch of college students both the judge and jury. It's not going to go well for UNC.
2013-02-26 12:25:37 AM  
1 votes:

Philbb: bigwf2007: She describes him as a rapist. The words rape or rapist appear four times in the Huffington Post article. The phrase "sexual assault" appears seven times.

So, what's your point? She describes "him" as a rapist yet, never publicly identifies "him". Are we to assume that the rapist might be a "her"? That's not unprecedented, but is still very unlikely. She thinks it was an ex-boyfriend, but doesn't give any more details than that.


i'm not quite sure what you are talking about. She's quite adamant that her ex-boyfriend attacked her. If you read the article linked from the HffPo piece, she says it was part of a pattner.

And why are some people saying the university forced her to go to the honor court when the article linked from HuffPo clearly states she went to the honor court rather that the legal system because she thought it would be quiicker.
2013-02-26 12:25:26 AM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Theaetetus:
Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody. I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.


me too
2013-02-26 12:25:12 AM  
1 votes:
Innocent until proven guilty applies to men, too. Even if you think it shouldn't. No conviction? Going around calling them a rapist with the intent of ruining their lives is a crime.
2013-02-26 12:25:01 AM  
1 votes:
skullkrusher:
She availed herself of the "honor court" option.

..
because she had no choice...she didn't like that and wanted another option.  she was told 'honor court or nothing' and to STFU about it, not to mention it to the press and get over it.

not to mention that the 'court' was run by ill trained fellow students who did a sloppy job and might very well have let their own bias decide the 'case'.  no appeals either, and don't talk about it to the press or you can kiss your degree goodbye.
2013-02-26 12:21:38 AM  
1 votes:

telaran: mesmer242: BarkingUnicorn: The Daily Tarheel has some good journalism on this case.

Includes pic of Landen, and yes, she is.

"In the last four years, the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights has received more than 120 complaints relating to sexual violence and launched 11 investigations."

This had better be the next one, dammit.

What I have gathered from that much better article (along with the original) is this: UNC has what is probably an average number of rape/sexual assault cases, but unlike anyone with good sense would do, when someone has a rape complaint the university directs them to the honor court instead of the police. The honor court is filled with a bunch of barely trained "judges" who are happen to be undergraduate students. They decide guilt and innocence, and sometimes manage to break laws like confidentiality laws along the way without any repercussions whatsoever. Basically, UNC has created a completely separate legal system staffed cheaply by college students which costs less and makes them look better in crime stats.

Yeah, there'd better be a freakin' investigation.

And this all thanks to the really, really stupid idea that electing college students to the "student senate" or to the "student judiciary" is a good idea and actually giving it power.  They're voted in by popularity contests, virtually all of them have no idea what they're doing, but the universities seem to give then vast leeway in what they are allowed to deal with because they were pressured into doing so by students who constantly cry about not having voices in school function.

Student government bonus: You get to have flat screen TVs in the dorms and pretend you're doing something about the cost of college text books.
Student government problem: Students who have no idea what they're doing get to screw up rather important things, like crime reporting and following proper policy.

The administration will pretend it isn't involved until something like this ...


I was in student government in college and we had power over a small fee that was collected and funded various clubs. That's about it. Oh, the student body president would have meetings with deans and such, but there really wasn't any power over anything but the entertainment/student life. The stupidity of having undergrads in charge of a miniature legal system, especially one that covers felonies, is astounding.
2013-02-26 12:17:17 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: All colleges are liberal, period, even in Texas


[it's time to stop posting dot jpeg]
2013-02-26 12:16:57 AM  
1 votes:
skullkrusher:
seems like you're taking a fair bit of poetic license here but your complaint was that they expected her to prove rape TO THEM. Yeah, she brought a charge of rape to this "honor court". Of course she has to prove her accusation. She'd have to do that in a real court through the prosecution too. It wouldn't surprise me if UNC had a policy of hushing up rape, it's bad for enrollment after all, but it seems like she made her case, they didn't buy it and now want her to stop discussing the attack as it impugns a guy that they found innocent.
Sure, she might not be mentioning the guy's name in public but do you really think his identity is a secret?


*sigh*

no.  let's try this again - she didn't like the options that the university gave her.  she told the university that their options sucked donkey balls and she wanted to know what OTHER options she had.  the university told her to suck it up and deal with it, this was all she got.  she didn't like that, thought the university rules needed to be changed...and took steps to change them.

that's what this is about.
2013-02-26 12:15:55 AM  
1 votes:

ModernLuddite: //I also went to university.
///"Rape" is what happens when you do anything a woman doesn't like.
////And if you think that attitude is sick, well, I think assuming every man you meet is a rapist is pretty sick.


How about, "putting words in other people's mouths and strawmanning things they've never said is pretty sick"?

Can we "agree to disagree" about that as well?

Meanwhile, what's the appropriate Fark color for "lies about everything"?
2013-02-26 12:15:27 AM  
1 votes:

Fluorescent Testicle: BSABSVR: Have you never seen a rape thread before?  Or one of the endless "Autobiography of Doglover X" threads?  Cause you clearly are not new here.

I'm assuming sarcasm on his part. Seriously, Fark has so many rape defenders I'm surprised it's not on some kind of watch list.


What's interesting is how much of it isn't even the mealy-mouthed "If this guy is found guilty then he is probably a rapist, but until then I am looking at all parties suspiciously and c'mon ladies I don't walk around flashing a big wad of cash" defense.  Fark goes straight for the whole "women are all liars until proven otherwise also what is 'rape' nowadays anyhow? " defense.
2013-02-26 12:15:20 AM  
1 votes:

Popular Opinion: Philbb: Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."

probably too stupid to not be trolling


Eh, I've been present at a few court evals for alleged child rapists.  One guy basically said the same thing.  Granted, we ordered testing because he seemed to be severely mentally impaired, but that kind of incredibly naive and utterly ridiculous thinking is not outside the realm of possibility as I have seen it before.

On the flip side, I have seen many, many patients falsely accuse people of raping them, sometimes due to psychotic, delusional thinking, and other times as attention-seeking behavior consistent with their psychopathology.  I have also seen patients who were legitimately raped, and it breaks your heart to see the damage that it can do to some people.
2013-02-26 12:14:22 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: skullkrusher: Weaver95: here, pay attention because this is the important part - it's not the rape plague that is the problem (although that's pretty bad in and of itself), the problem is that the schools policy for handling rape victims is really, horribly bad. terrible, in fact. horrific. they pretended nothing was wrong. assumed the victim was lying, expected her to prove rape TO THEM. not to a court. not to the cops. she had to prove rape...to the school. on her own, with no lawyer or process in place to assure her anything would be done. And she - and other women who went through the same thing - thought the school could do things better.

of course they expected her to prove rape to them. How else would it work? Expel the guy on an accusation?

woman: 'I was raped. I reported it, the cops are investigating and i'm in therapy.  can ya cut me some slack?  at least 'till the stitches heal?'

university proper response: 'sure, how about we talk to your professors and see what you and your therapist can come up with to get you back on track.'
university actual response: 'meh, not our problem. man up and walk it off cookie.  oh, and stop dressing slutty. now pay yer tuition and STFU ok?  thanks!'

see the difference?  one is a human response, the other is corporate.


seems like you're taking a fair bit of poetic license here but your complaint was that they expected her to prove rape TO THEM. Yeah, she brought a charge of rape to this "honor court". Of course she has to prove her accusation. She'd have to do that in a real court through the prosecution too. It wouldn't surprise me if UNC had a policy of hushing up rape, it's bad for enrollment after all, but it seems like she made her case, they didn't buy it and now want her to stop discussing the attack as it impugns a guy that they found innocent.
Sure, she might not be mentioning the guy's name in public but do you really think his identity is a secret?
2013-02-26 12:14:14 AM  
1 votes:

bigwf2007: She describes him as a rapist. The words rape or rapist appear four times in the Huffington Post article. The phrase "sexual assault" appears seven times.


So, what's your point? She describes "him" as a rapist yet, never publicly identifies "him". Are we to assume that the rapist might be a "her"? That's not unprecedented, but is still very unlikely. She thinks it was an ex-boyfriend, but doesn't give any more details than that.
2013-02-26 12:10:30 AM  
1 votes:

Philbb: Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."


That's what we've told them is a viable excuse. Well, not the six year olds, but replace it with a 20 year old victim? Totally. There's even an exception in the Federal Rules of Evidence for past sexual behavior with the victim.
I'd be cautious of using pedophiles as reasonable examples of all rapists in your research.
2013-02-26 12:08:34 AM  
1 votes:

Philbb: Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."


probably too stupid to not be trolling
2013-02-26 12:08:26 AM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: Weaver95: here, pay attention because this is the important part - it's not the rape plague that is the problem (although that's pretty bad in and of itself), the problem is that the schools policy for handling rape victims is really, horribly bad. terrible, in fact. horrific. they pretended nothing was wrong. assumed the victim was lying, expected her to prove rape TO THEM. not to a court. not to the cops. she had to prove rape...to the school. on her own, with no lawyer or process in place to assure her anything would be done. And she - and other women who went through the same thing - thought the school could do things better.

of course they expected her to prove rape to them. How else would it work? Expel the guy on an accusation?


woman: 'I was raped. I reported it, the cops are investigating and i'm in therapy.  can ya cut me some slack?  at least 'till the stitches heal?'

university proper response: 'sure, how about we talk to your professors and see what you and your therapist can come up with to get you back on track.'
university actual response: 'meh, not our problem. man up and walk it off cookie.  oh, and stop dressing slutty. now pay yer tuition and STFU ok?  thanks!'

see the difference?  one is a human response, the other is corporate.
2013-02-26 12:08:18 AM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: The Daily Tarheel has some good journalism on this case.

Includes pic of Landen, and yes, she is.

"In the last four years, the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights has received more than 120 complaints relating to sexual violence and launched 11 investigations."

This had better be the next one, dammit.


What I have gathered from that much better article (along with the original) is this: UNC has what is probably an average number of rape/sexual assault cases, but unlike anyone with good sense would do, when someone has a rape complaint the university directs them to the honor court instead of the police. The honor court is filled with a bunch of barely trained "judges" who are happen to be undergraduate students. They decide guilt and innocence, and sometimes manage to break laws like confidentiality laws along the way without any repercussions whatsoever. Basically, UNC has created a completely separate legal system staffed cheaply by college students which costs less and makes them look better in crime stats.

Yeah, there'd better be a freakin' investigation.
2013-02-26 12:06:01 AM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

It was a joke......

I do find it odd all these magical rapists are running around, not even getting kicked out of college, let alone charged with a crime, and they are all guilty. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey. Now, given how extremely liberal all colleges are as well, and a woman on the board no less telling the chick she is a douche, I side with the college. Months of this evil abusive boyfriend, and then she goes to the college to get the guy in trouble? She was right. First time a guy abuses you, leave. Christ, not like she was married with kids and dependent either. And she was depressed and had suicide attempts? Crazy chick.

The other girl with head wound, go to the police, let them handle it.


Thank you for putting your lack of understanding of human beings on display. It makes the ignore process much easier to use.
2013-02-26 12:04:11 AM  
1 votes:
Homer: Wait, I'm confused about the movie... so the cops knew internal affairs were setting them up?
Man: What are you talking about theres nothing like that in there
Homer: Well y'see when I get bored I make up my own movie. I have a very short attention span
Lady: But our point is very simple, y'see when...
Homer: Oh look! A bird! Hihihihihee

/this whole thread
2013-02-26 12:03:52 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: here, pay attention because this is the important part - it's not the rape plague that is the problem (although that's pretty bad in and of itself), the problem is that the schools policy for handling rape victims is really, horribly bad. terrible, in fact. horrific. they pretended nothing was wrong. assumed the victim was lying, expected her to prove rape TO THEM. not to a court. not to the cops. she had to prove rape...to the school. on her own, with no lawyer or process in place to assure her anything would be done. And she - and other women who went through the same thing - thought the school could do things better.


of course they expected her to prove rape to them. How else would it work? Expel the guy on an accusation?
2013-02-26 12:03:12 AM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: skullkrusher: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order

I was a child in the 80s and the 90s and we were told once or twice to respect a woman's wishes and that was enough because we weren't a bunch of knuckledragging farking savages

Actually, there are almost no school programs that teach consent. That's actually one of the bigger problems with abstinence education- it reinforces rape culture. The idea that you should always say no is totally at odds with human nature, and not only does it present some problems as far as teaching birth control and reproductive health, it also presents some problems as far as sexual consent goes.

If you tell people they're not ever allowed to say yes, and when that's particularly focused on women, a very screwy sexual dynamic emerges.


My high school must have been very progressive then in the mid to late 90s

We were taught consent is a must have, but then again, we weren't taught abstinence only in high school.  The focus was on "We know you're going to have sex at some point, here is how to protect yourself".  The condom wrapped banana was a fixture, a right of passage even.

I remember we even had an STD laden game of telephone.

In college I learned of the term "mutually incapacitated sexual intercourse" in an English course that ended up focusing on writing up pamphlets that described the school's sexual harassment and sexual assault code.

Sad that I seem to know at least 2 women that dated the same guy, one was date raped, the other managed to leave without having sex with him (she was a foot taller and a volleyball player, he was a CS nerd), and he had the gall to spread rumors about the second one.  He's really lucky he survived given the situation was one where you had 50+ guys ready to beat his ass for lying and attempted rape.

Sadder still that she was an RA, and never reported it.  He ended up married to the meekest woman I've ever known, and I still worry about her.

Oh, and he was one of the most hypocritically "pious" assholes I've had the displeasure of knowing, hiding his predatory nature behind the doors the confessional.

//I have no idea why I typed that all out, probably because I've known too many women that were raped or nearly raped that never reported it out of fear of retaliation.
2013-02-26 12:02:05 AM  
1 votes:
Thunderpipes:
How am I in any way wrong? Seriously. I am not. I am just not a panty waste crybaby head like most people. Dude hits you, leave. Story over. Sooner we stop allowing people to act like children and refuse to take responsibility for their actions, better we will be. Funny how society doesn't attack chicks that whip their husbands, huh?

Grow a pair, Cupcake.


like I said...it's like you suffer from a mental disease or something.
2013-02-26 12:01:16 AM  
1 votes:

Ryan2065: bigwf2007: Landen Gambill is the one who claims she is being threatened with an honor code violation for talking about her "rape.". She is the one who reported her boyfriend for an honor code violation for raping her. But I haven't found any explanation in any story I've read for why she didn't go to the police.

No, she isn't...  She was in an abusive relationship (sexually and verbally) with her boyfriend and when she ended the relationship he started to stalk her. She reported him for an honor code violation for stalking her. I'm guessing she just wanted it to stop and thought that was the easiest way to make it happen. For her efforts:

Link


When the relationship ended, she said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.

Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.

"The woman student said to me, 'Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would've broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn't?'" she said.

Gambill said the court used her history of clinical depression and her suicide attempt - which she said was a result of her abusive relationship - against her.

"They implied that I was emotionally unstable and couldn't be telling the truth because I had attempted suicide," she said.

Gambill said the court's ignorance reflected a complete lack of training.

But Judicial Programs Officer Erik Hunter said the Honor Court members and the student attorney general's staff received a full day of training after the interim procedures were implemented.


From the article: "Obviously, I'm afraid. I never meant to make anyone mad at me [by speaking out]," Gambill told HuffPost. "I'm mostly surprised at just how crazy it is, that they're  willing to charge me with something just because my rapist is feeling uncomfortable."


She describes him as a rapist. The words rape or rapist appear four times in the Huffington Post article. The phrase "sexual assault" appears seven times.
2013-02-26 12:00:32 AM  
1 votes:

ongbok: Weaver95: Voiceofreason01: Weaver95:
you weren't paying attention, were you?

There aren't enough details in the article to know anything for sure other than someone, somewhere is outraged. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that's pretty damning if you look at it from a certain point of view but no hard evidence. Am I supposed to be outraged by this?

if you follow along with the links embedded in the story, there are certainly more details than you seem to have noticed.  besides, the details of the rape aren't at issue.  the schools handling of the situation is what's at stake.

Well for the girl in this story she never went to the police to report her ex for the prior abuse and stalking. She went to the Honor Court instead to have him kicked out of school, and that was her mistake there. The Honor Court doesn't have any power to investigate, only thing they are going to do is listen to both sides and decide who is telling the truth, and it seems like they didn't believe her. I wonder if she ever filled a police report against him.


except that what you are saying is completely and in all ways wrong, sure.  even if you don't believe her story, there's STILL a bunch of other rape victims to consider.  but even that STILL misses the point.

here, pay attention because this is the important part - it's not the rape plague that is the problem (although that's pretty bad in and of itself), the problem is that the schools policy for handling rape victims is really, horribly bad.  terrible, in fact.  horrific.  they pretended nothing was wrong.  assumed the victim was lying, expected her to prove rape TO THEM.  not to a court. not to the cops.  she had to prove rape...to the school.  on her own, with no lawyer or process in place to assure her anything would be done.  And she - and other women who went through the same thing - thought the school could do things better.

the school disagreed and punished her for speaking up about their crappy customer service.
2013-02-25 11:58:39 PM  
1 votes:

IgG4: Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.


That's not how campus law works.  There is a 'legal' system in place and most campus issues are resolved there.  It's like binding arbitration, only with more rape.
2013-02-25 11:55:16 PM  
1 votes:
Thunderpipes:
I do find it odd all these magical rapists are running around, not even getting kicked out of college, let alone charged with a crime, and they are all guilty. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey. Now, given how extremely liberal all colleges are as well, and a woman on the board no less telling the chick she is a douche, I side with the college. Months of this evil abusive boyfriend, and then she goes to the college to get the guy in trouble? She was right. First time a guy abuses you, leave. Christ, not like she was married with kids and dependent either. And she was depressed and had suicide attempts? Crazy chick.

The other girl with head wound, go to the police, let them handle it.


its like you suffer from some form of mental disease or something....
2013-02-25 11:54:09 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?


It was a joke......

I do find it odd all these magical rapists are running around, not even getting kicked out of college, let alone charged with a crime, and they are all guilty. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey. Now, given how extremely liberal all colleges are as well, and a woman on the board no less telling the chick she is a douche, I side with the college. Months of this evil abusive boyfriend, and then she goes to the college to get the guy in trouble? She was right. First time a guy abuses you, leave. Christ, not like she was married with kids and dependent either. And she was depressed and had suicide attempts? Crazy chick.

The other girl with head wound, go to the police, let them handle it.
2013-02-25 11:53:04 PM  
1 votes:

gadian: Has he been convicted?  I'm not a GED holding law type, but I imagine that plays into the harassment angle just a little bit.


Hagenhatesyouall: Was the dude convicted of raping her?


Voiceofreason01: All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university


atomicmask: Maybe she should wait for her "alleged" rapist to be convicted so its no longer an "Alleged" case and its a convicted case, other wise its just defaming the character of someone.


FTFA: "Honor Code violation for 'disruptive or intimidating behavior' against her alleged rapist, although she has never publicly named him."

She says she was raped, she says that she went to the school and nothing was done, she found other sexual assault victims who went through the same thing. She is now "part of a group that filed a complaint in January with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging the university has routinely violated the rights of sexual assault survivors and failed to assist them in recovery after the reported abuse."

There is nothing at all that could be considered libelous, according to the article.
2013-02-25 11:52:06 PM  
1 votes:
meat0918:
Why does that seem like copypasta from a different college wants to cover up rape thread?

universities DO NOT like scandals.  they don't like it when crimes happen on campus, they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to admit it happens and they sure as hell don't want to see it reported in the newspapers.  they'd rather just sweep the allegations under the rug and pretend nothing happened.
2013-02-25 11:51:36 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Hagenhatesyouall: Was the dude convicted of raping her?

If so, the school is farked.

If not, then that biatch needs to shut the fark up and suck up some slander charges.

Whup, got another sociopath! "If the rapist isn't convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accuser is guilty of lying and we don't need trials or anything."
Tag him and bag him.


i3.kym-cdn.com
2013-02-25 11:50:44 PM  
1 votes:

Ryan2065: bigwf2007: Landen Gambill is the one who claims she is being threatened with an honor code violation for talking about her "rape.". She is the one who reported her boyfriend for an honor code violation for raping her. But I haven't found any explanation in any story I've read for why she didn't go to the police.

No, she isn't...  She was in an abusive relationship (sexually and verbally) with her boyfriend and when she ended the relationship he started to stalk her. She reported him for an honor code violation for stalking her. I'm guessing she just wanted it to stop and thought that was the easiest way to make it happen. For her efforts:

Link


When the relationship ended, she said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.

Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.

"The woman student said to me, 'Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would've broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn't?'" she said.

Gambill said the court used her history of clinical depression and her suicide attempt - which she said was a result of her abusive relationship - against her.

"They implied that I was emotionally unstable and couldn't be telling the truth because I had attempted suicide," she said.


Gambill said the court's ignorance reflected a complete lack of training.

But Judicial Programs Officer Erik Hunter said the Honor Court members and the student attorney general's staff received a full day of training after the interim procedures were implemented.


Holy CRAP.

Jesus.  My school had a poor excuse for mental health counseling (especially considered the sophisticated and thorough mental heath counseling patients at the medical school got, seemed like they couldn't be bothered to provide much to the students directly) but goddamn.  That's appalling.

rynthetyn: And universities are notorious for covering things up if it might possibly make the school look bad. You often have to at least threaten to report to a federal agency to get things moving. I had to threaten to play that card on behalf of my sister when our college wouldn't do anything about her being sexually harassed by some other students. Suddenly when I pointed out that their federal funding was in trouble if my sister decided to go to the feds over their Title IX violations, they decided to take things a lot more seriously.

I'm sure she's told you this: but thank you for being awesome.
2013-02-25 11:50:37 PM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: We need extremely tough false accusation laws, to award large damages to men falsely accused.


See above -
(i) rape victim, covered in jizz, bruises, and scratches can't identify her rapist, but gives a description;
(ii) police round up people matching that description and prosecutor charges them without waiting for DNA evidence; and
(iii) overzealous reporter claims all of the people are rapists, baby farkers, puppy torturers, and terrorists.

Which one or ones would you charge with crimes or civil penalties?
2013-02-25 11:49:28 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order

I was a child in the 80s and the 90s and we were told once or twice to respect a woman's wishes and that was enough because we weren't a bunch of knuckledragging farking savages


Actually, there are almost no school programs that teach consent. That's actually one of the bigger problems with abstinence education- it reinforces rape culture. The idea that you should always say no is totally at odds with human nature, and not only does it present some problems as far as teaching birth control and reproductive health, it also presents some problems as far as sexual consent goes.

If you tell people they're not ever allowed to say yes, and when that's particularly focused on women, a very screwy sexual dynamic emerges.
2013-02-25 11:48:51 PM  
1 votes:

Dafatone: But say the phrase "rape culture" and everyone yells at you.


To echo something from a previous thread, it's really, really sad that I need an "anti-rape" tag for Fark.  Because the existence of such a tag as "anti-rape" suggests that there are people out there who need to be tagged as "pro-rape."

This thread is a little depressing in that regard.
2013-02-25 11:48:19 PM  
1 votes:

Fluorescent Testicle: Sidenote to all of Fark's pro-rape white knights: You are aware that the only thing you're succeeding in is making yourselves look guilty of rape as well, right? I'm not going to say that you are rapists (obviously, most of you are just trolls), but that's what it looks like. That goes for every rape thread, by the way, not just this one.


That was a really stupid thing to say.
2013-02-25 11:46:32 PM  
1 votes:

HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order


I was a child in the 80s and the 90s and we were told once or twice to respect a woman's wishes and that was enough because we weren't a bunch of knuckledragging farking savages
2013-02-25 11:43:16 PM  
1 votes:

Barachiel: Wow, it's pretty tough for me to believe people are jumping at the chance to defend the guy.


Account created: 2007-11-19 09:07:34


Have you never seen a rape thread before?  Or one of the endless "Autobiography of Doglover X" threads?  Cause you clearly are not new here.
2013-02-25 11:42:32 PM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: The Daily Tarheel has some good journalism on this case.


FTA: "When I went to report my assault in 2007, I asked an administrator what the process would look like," Clark said. "Instead, that person told me, 'Rape is like a football game, Annie. If you look back on the game, and you're the quarterback and you're in charge, is there anything that you would have done differently in that situation?'"

Is everything a sports metaphor to these clods?
2013-02-25 11:31:44 PM  
1 votes:

IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: Somacandra: Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.

[i.imgur.com image 582x615]

I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.

IgG4 is Orange, apparently. Shame, I farkied him as red 5.

Then how come you keep responding to me?

Because, Sparky, it's not about me thinking that you're an asshole. It's about tagging you as a predator for the good of the population.

See, the majority of men are not rapists. The majority of men should not be afraid of false accusations, and shouldn't be in fear that a clumsy advance should be considered sexual assault. Rather, rapists make up a small portion of the population, and they commit  multiple rapes - 6 on average. But they blend in to society, with half-jokes about rape victims asking for it, trying to diminish victims' credibility by saying that women who, say, failed to immediately contact the police* weren't legitimately raped.
And because it seems logical initially, and we non-rapists don't want to believe that there are such monsters in our midst, we say "yeah, that makes sense, she must have been lying." And the rational response from women is to fear that any man could be a rapist.

Well, shiat. Because of lies like that, both men and women are in fear. And that's wrong. Particularly when all we need to do is start identifying you. Because, if we get past our fear, you do stand out. You make jokes about rape. You demand that suspected rapists be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but simultaneously demand that rape victims be guilty of slander unless they prove the rapist committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Shiat, you identify yourselves, and, most importantly, you identify yourselves as being a  smallportion of the population. See, if we can tag you and count you, we can show that you're only ab ...


Problem?


Trolling? No. More like you got caught with a stupid, idiotic set of comments and you're trying to back out. Try again next time. Or better yet, don't.
2013-02-25 11:28:59 PM  
1 votes:

IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: Somacandra: Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.

[i.imgur.com image 582x615]

I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.

IgG4 is Orange, apparently. Shame, I farkied him as red 5.

Then how come you keep responding to me?

Because, Sparky, it's not about me thinking that you're an asshole. It's about tagging you as a predator for the good of the population.

See, the majority of men are not rapists. The majority of men should not be afraid of false accusations, and shouldn't be in fear that a clumsy advance should be considered sexual assault. Rather, rapists make up a small portion of the population, and they commit  multiple rapes - 6 on average. But they blend in to society, with half-jokes about rape victims asking for it, trying to diminish victims' credibility by saying that women who, say, failed to immediately contact the police* weren't legitimately raped.
And because it seems logical initially, and we non-rapists don't want to believe that there are such monsters in our midst, we say "yeah, that makes sense, she must have been lying." And the rational response from women is to fear that any man could be a rapist.

Well, shiat. Because of lies like that, both men and women are in fear. And that's wrong. Particularly when all we need to do is start identifying you. Because, if we get past our fear, you do stand out. You make jokes about rape. You demand that suspected rapists be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but simultaneously demand that rape victims be guilty of slander unless they prove the rapist committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Shiat, you identify yourselves, and, most importantly, you identify yourselves as being a  smallportion of the population. See, if we can tag you and count you, we can show that yo ...


Uhh, the "right direction" would be not identifying the "rapist" in ALL cases until a conviction is made.  Why?  Because unlike you farking Dworkinites and followers of Catherine Comins, there is NOTHING to be learned from a false rape accusation.

For those that need the quote, "men who are unjustly accused can sometimes gain from the experience. "They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. 'How do I see women?' 'If I didn't violate her, could I have?' 'Do I have the potential to do to her what they say I did?' Those are good questions."
2013-02-25 11:27:13 PM  
1 votes:
Thunderpipes(favorite: Pro-rape sociopath) : She was probably just hammered.

She has no idea what happened, but she is a rape victim survivor warrior?


The best part of this is that you destroy your own credibility. I'm merely marking you for future reference.
2013-02-25 11:26:21 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: F*U*C*K* you and DIAF


So now you aren't just supporting rape but also murder through burning the victim?  You are a winner!
2013-02-25 11:23:58 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie:
We like to think people rally behind the victim, but actually? There's always loud crowds of douchebags making sure to say "Well, you know she could be a liar". As a result? There are a whole lot more women whose rapists were never prosecuted than there EVER IN A MILLION YEARS will be "Men whose lives were ruined because the community rallied behind a rape victim and didn't believe in his innocence."

not to mention the part of the crowd that always believes that the rape victim was a slut who deserved what happened to her...now THAT is a mindset I find truly disturbing.  as if someone could 'deserve' rape.  these are the same people who see rape as a bonus every time someone gets sent to jail on a pot smoking charge.

mind boggling.


I'm telling you, there are predators in our midst. We need to start marking people on their foreheads, like Ash Wednesday, but with indelible ink or paintballs.
2013-02-25 11:22:42 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.


She was probably just hammered.

She has no idea what happened, but she is a rape victim survivor warrior?
2013-02-25 11:22:04 PM  
1 votes:

Barachiel: Wow, it's pretty tough for me to believe people are jumping at the chance to defend the guy.


TFA is lacking in some details
2013-02-25 11:20:29 PM  
1 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
I think everyone needs to be taught that sex should happen when there is a clear and enthusiastic yes from both parties. If there's not? No dice.

me: 'wanna have sex?'
her: 'sure!  lemme get the whips!'
me: um...on second thought....'
her: 'oh i'm sorry, that's NOT the safety word we agreed on...'

I've had some uncomfortable dates where expectations needed to have been spelled out CLEARLY in advance.
2013-02-25 11:20:12 PM  
1 votes:

evaned: Ryan2065: But Judicial Programs Officer Erik Hunter said the Honor Court members and the student attorney general's staff received a full day of training after the interim procedures were implemented.

Ooooo, a whole day of training! I'm sure that straightened everyone out!


Yeah, they're probably all qualified to be promoted to Student Supreme Court Justices, now.
2013-02-25 11:20:06 PM  
1 votes:
PAGING SPENTMILES

Spentmiles to the Fark courtesy phone, please.
2013-02-25 11:18:53 PM  
1 votes:
 "I'm mostly surprised at just how crazy it is, that they're willing to charge me with something just because my rapist is feeling uncomfortable."

In fairness to the university, the correct term is  alleged rapist.  The university can't and shouldn't condone violations of innocent until proven guilty on its campus.

Especially given how badly that ended the last time this happened with a high-profile case, the university took the woman's side, and she turned out to be full of shiat, landing the uni in loads of legal trouble.

"Save it for court" is, well, a pretty reasonable position for the institution to take, aside from complying with restraining orders and so on.
2013-02-25 11:18:50 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Somacandra: Weaver95: I cannot even begin to untangle the morass of lies, contradictions and bullshiat the right wing in this country has said they believe when it comes to the subject of rape in this country.

[i.imgur.com image 582x615]

I think this color-coded graphic helps sort the issues out well.

IgG4 is Orange, apparently. Shame, I farkied him as red 5.


That purple level remark may ultimately turn out to be the less-than-ten-second "joke" that destroyed this nation.

Clayton Williams said that while running against Democrat ic candidate Ann Richards (R.I.P. ― one of the best governors Texas has had in recent memory) for Governor of Texas. He was beating her by a whopping twenty points in the polls. He had the election in the bag.

And then he made that remark. On TV. Days before the election.

Ann Richards won. She proceeded to do great things for Texas, though her first term was mostly cleaning up the mess from previous (Republican) administrations.

Unfortunately, she only got to serve that one clean-up term, and never got to do more of what she had planned. Because the GOP ran a new candidate against her, a man who was the son of the then-recent President of the United States: George W. Bush, son of George Herbert Walker Bush.

That was how Dubya became Governor of Texas. It could never have happened had Clayton Williams not said that joke. He would've won (which would've been bad for Texas), and would thus have been an incumbent, and the GOP would not risk splitting the vote putting Dubya or anyone else with any serious chance against him when he ran for reelection.

Thus, Dubya would never have been Governor of Texas. And without that as a springboard to give him credibility, he would never have even been in the running to become President of the United States.

Think how different things would be today.

One insensitive jerk tells one insensitive joke that took at most ten seconds to tell, and now America has flushed four trillion dollars down the toilet for the Iraq War alone (that Dubya kept off the books) ― money that could've completely repaired our infrastructure (including bridges on the verge of collapse nationwide ― remember, one collapsed tragically not all that long ago) and brought all public schools up to a competitive level, and much more, setting the stage for the situation we find ourselves in today.
2013-02-25 11:17:30 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: victims whose rapes don't match the cultural expectation (i.e. stranger jumping out of the bushes to rape a pretty young white woman)


Oh, both rape cases in the Innocence Project and in the survey of women (violence against women) suggests that very few rapes involved that scenario.  I have no idea why so many idiots believe that; it's sad.
2013-02-25 11:17:21 PM  
1 votes:
Don't y'all DARE be 'cusin no Norf Car'lina rape victim of lyin, now.

2.bp.blogspot.com

img2-cdn.newser.com

Sumboddy mite git hurt.
2013-02-25 11:16:49 PM  
1 votes:
Don't even submit a plea. This is a farking kangaroo court.
2013-02-25 11:16:16 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: Whoa there. I think s/he's talking about Laurent Gambill, who was just one of the filers: ... That may be the confusion here. We're mixing up the different cases of survivors who all filed this complaint with the Feds.


Ah, alright. I figured he meant "Boyfriend" as in the usual "I bet they were dating, they boned and she changed her mind" bullshiat. In that case, nevermind the troll score.

He's still a complete ass, though.
2013-02-25 11:15:34 PM  
1 votes:

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes, I know the trauma.


Wait, does that just mean that they were angry a man did something they didn't like?
2013-02-25 11:15:27 PM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I would sue that "Honor Court" for its next generation's worth of budgets.

Going to student court for rape justice is like going to an HOA with a housing discrimination complaint.  Call real cops. Get a real lawyer.


What their "Honor Court" looks like imo:

cdn.lightgalleries.net
2013-02-25 11:13:34 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: kendelrio: But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.

Do you have any idea what that process is like for a rape victim?


I understand that it's even worse if you're a male victim....but that's a whole other topic of conversation.
2013-02-25 11:13:07 PM  
1 votes:

debug: alleged rapist


You realize that just because people keep saying that, it doesn't make it any different.  When someone is murdered there is a murderer, whether or not that murderer is convicted.  You can be a rapist without being prosecuted.  Plus, read the f*cking article, because the woman in question doesn't farking know who raped her.
2013-02-25 11:11:32 PM  
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: kendelrio: But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.

Do you have any idea what that process is like for a rape victim?


Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes, I know the trauma. Also, have you ever lived in Hawaii?
2013-02-25 11:09:54 PM  
1 votes:
If anything the University is guilty of allowing anything having even peripherally involved with a crime as serious as rape to be dealt with in a public forum. It is testament to how truly farked up the situation has gotten that the press has become involved and that the university honor court was ever involved.
2013-02-25 11:09:30 PM  
1 votes:

Your Average Witty Fark User: FARK. THAT.

Give me this son of a biatch's name and I'll skywrite it in Chapel Hill. I'll pay for it myself.


But but but YER HONOR!

It reminds me of that old Kids in the Hall Sketch.

OK, People in positions of authority...what did they say you were never supposed to do when someone is raped?
Never...never attack the victim...never attack the...never...never attack...always...always attack...always attack the victim! AAAAAAARRRRRRGHHH!
2013-02-25 11:06:45 PM  
1 votes:
Why is this even a school issue?  What happened to her was not a violation of school rules.  What happened to her was a horrific crime!  It should have been a matter for the police, not some "honor court" run by her fellow students.  While I have sympathy for her in regards to being raped, I have no sympathy for her if she never reported the crime to the police and instead sought to have the school handle the whole thing.
2013-02-25 11:06:20 PM  
1 votes:

blueviking: Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Genevieve Marie: For all the inevitable Men's Rights "ZOMG FALSE RAPE" derp that will inevitably arise here: She has not named her rapist publicly. She is not harassing him personally. She is merely speaking about her rape along with two other women whose rapes were ignored by the school in support of an administrator who was fired for speaking out against the way  the school treats rape victims.

which even if you don't believe her story means you STILL have to support her right to speak up about how the school handled her situation.

Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.

Amen...I sincerely doubt those that go to the excuse of "well, if she didn't report it to the cops, obviously, it's a fake charge". Such a report and investigation is unpleasant, to say the very farkin' least, not to mention the cycle of blame, stigma and invasion that victim has to endure through a trial, if it ever makes it that far and department actually handles the charge correctly. I can't blame a victim for not going to the cops...it just reopens the wound over and over again.


But going to an "Honor Court", in which, if the rapist is found guilty, the maximum penalty is **gasp** expulsion, is "easier"?

fark that. If he's a rapist, contact the police.
2013-02-25 11:06:11 PM  
1 votes:

Pharmdawg: Where the hell am I living? Did I go to sleep in the 20th century and wake up after honor and justice and decency were outlawed? Pedophile priests protected by popes, bungling bankers bankrolled by bureaucrats, and now rapists rudely razzed. WTF America?!

Someone fold up the flag and eat the last piece of apple pie...we're finished.


media.tumblr.com

There has been too much violence. Too much pain. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me your pump, the oil, the gasoline, and the whole compound, and I'll spare your lives. Just walk away and we'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror.
2013-02-25 11:01:34 PM  
1 votes:
I still don't get the thing about the honor charges to begin with.  Why?  Why not just have him arrested?  His school record and standing on campus will be remedied by an arrest for sexual assault and stalking.  Such a thing would be very far from my mind.  Then again, I've never had to deal with going to class with my rapist, so there is that.
2013-02-25 11:00:38 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Genevieve Marie:
Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.

yeah, but with Limbaugh and Fox News and the religious right out there constantly training their followers to believe that women who claim rape are all lying whores...can you really be surprised when you see someone blame the rape victim instead of asking questions about what actually happened...?


I talk about feminism on the internet. Nothing misogynistic ever surprises me.
2013-02-25 11:00:14 PM  
1 votes:

gadian: Has he been convicted?  I'm not a GED holding law type, but I imagine that plays into the harassment angle just a little bit.


Dude, this is Fark.  No one cares if he is guilty or was ever even arrested, so long as someone has told the media he did it.
2013-02-25 10:58:25 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Lunchlady: She better pray to God she can prove the things she's claiming beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise she is going to get the pants sued off her.

I don't think so.

look - her deal is that she didn't like how the university handled her claims of rape.  they didn't even acknowledge her and assumed she was lying without checking out her story.  she followed their rules, their procedures...didn't get satisfaction.  so she went to the next level.  now she got their attention and the response was to punish her for it.

even if you don't like her.  even if you don't believe her story...you STILL have to support her right to say she doesn't agree with how the school handled her situation.


Oh agreed. I went to a fairly large state college, I know how it works, she's probably in the right. I was just commenting that if the guy's name gets out and he suffers repercussions and there isn't hard evidence to actually convict him he'd be within his rights to sue her for slander and he'd probably win.
2013-02-25 10:58:25 PM  
1 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
Yup. But isn't it fascinating how rape threads always reveal ingrained misogyny? People IMMEDIATELY question the victim, her story, how she handled it and the way she's speaking without bothering to find the facts. The first instinct for some is always to white night an accused  rapist.

I don't think I will ever get to a place where I'm desensitized enough to not be creeped the hell out by that.


yeah, but with Limbaugh and Fox News and the religious right out there constantly training their followers to believe that women who claim rape are all lying whores...can you really be surprised when you see someone blame the rape victim instead of asking questions about what actually happened...?
2013-02-25 10:52:41 PM  
1 votes:

bigwf2007: Landen Gambill is the one who claims she is being threatened with an honor code violation for talking about her "rape.". She is the one who reported her boyfriend for an honor code violation for raping her. But I haven't found any explanation in any story I've read for why she didn't go to the police.


um...what story are you reading?  could you link to it?  because that's not what the rest of us are talking about....
2013-02-25 10:50:43 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: if the school was getting reports from that many students who said that they woke up with fuzzy memories and physical evidence of rape then they are in serious trouble.


===

On Wednesday, Pino and UNC alumna Annie Clark, supported by fellow UNC student Landen Gambill -- all sexual assault survivors -- filed a formal complaint with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights on behalf of themselves and those 64 other victims, whose names are being kept confidential. Their complaint alleges UNC violated assault survivors' rights under the Campus Sexual Assault Victims' Bill of Rights, the Clery Act and the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), and equal opportunity mandates under Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, Titles VI and VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Ok, ok. Its clear that there are a number of victims, Pino is not Gambill. But the issue is not the conviction of suspects-rather the failure of UNC to institutionally deal with rape culture there. Its not about the crime so much as the coverup afterwards and shuffling off victims to keep the school from looking bad.
2013-02-25 10:49:36 PM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Weaver95:
you weren't paying attention, were you?

There aren't enough details in the article to know anything for sure other than someone, somewhere is outraged. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that's pretty damning if you look at it from a certain point of view but no hard evidence. Am I supposed to be outraged by this?


if you follow along with the links embedded in the story, there are certainly more details than you seem to have noticed.  besides, the details of the rape aren't at issue.  the schools handling of the situation is what's at stake.
2013-02-25 10:45:37 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: Weaver95: YIKES! if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?

In my experience working at large universities it is no different than business or government or some other large non-profit organization like a major church. There are powerful people who have interests to protect and they will go to any length necessary to preserve their slice of the pie. Of course Penn State is the paradigmatic example..but merely an example of a much larger trend.


I wish that we, as a society, had the ethical intestinal fortitude to jail not only the people who were guilty of a crime but also people who knew and helped cover it up or who knew and simply said nothing in order to protect themselves.
2013-02-25 10:45:14 PM  
1 votes:
2013-02-25 10:45:04 PM  
1 votes:
Weaver95:
you weren't paying attention, were you?

There aren't enough details in the article to know anything for sure other than someone, somewhere is outraged. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that's pretty damning if you look at it from a certain point of view but no hard evidence. Am I supposed to be outraged by this?
2013-02-25 10:44:51 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: Weaver95: YIKES! if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?

In my experience working at large universities it is no different than business or government or some other large non-profit organization like a major church. There are powerful people who have interests to protect and they will go to any length necessary to preserve their slice of the pie. Of course Penn State is the paradigmatic example..but merely an example of a much larger trend.


if the school was getting reports from that many students who said that they woke up with fuzzy memories and physical evidence of rape then they are in serious trouble.  one or two students...ok, maybe I could see it as coincidence or 'he said/she said' student bullshiat.  let the cops sort it out and keep the two students away from one another for the rest of term.  but SIXTY girls all saying the same (or very similar) things!?  WTF man....that's insane.
2013-02-25 10:41:47 PM  
1 votes:
She better pray to God she can prove the things she's claiming beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise she is going to get the pants sued off her.
2013-02-25 10:40:46 PM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Theaetetus:
Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

Nowhere in the article or the articles posted in the comments does it say she went to the police and nobody has been charged with a crime. I'm not going to come and white knight a rapist but there's also no real evidence that the boyfriend raped anybody. I might believe that University is covering things up but are you asserting that the local and State police are just ignoring accusations of rape?

/Interestingly I have you farkied as a troll.


you weren't paying attention, were you?
2013-02-25 10:38:52 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Somacandra: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?

Read the actual account linked to in the piece. She suffered a concussion and woke up covered in blood. She doesn't know who the rapist was. The point is when she tried to deal with how it affected her coursework, the university refused to cooperate and she found out that others had been treated similarly--thus leading a reasonable observer to conclude a systemic problem. I hate to say this, but as a faculty member I've had to deal with student victims (taking my classes) coming to me for help. Its incredibly sad and painful. And I'm not even the victim.

just skimmed that article.  YIKES!  if the school looked the other way after something that bad...what ELSE are they covering up!?


l2.yimg.com
2013-02-25 10:33:53 PM  
1 votes:

SlothB77: the rapist must be on the basketball team.  or football team or lax team.


That was my thought, also.  He's somehow big on campus.
2013-02-25 10:30:52 PM  
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university


0/10, and that's being generous.
2013-02-25 10:29:35 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response. But that's apparently not good enough for you, because you want to call her "an activist with an axe to grind" so that people will shut her up.  Boy, you sure are angry at being called out on your own words.
And I stand by my original declaration of your Farky. That's incredibly sociopathic, and there's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.


And universities are notorious for covering things up if it might possibly make the school look bad. You often have to at least threaten to report to a federal agency to get things moving. I had to threaten to play that card on behalf of my sister when our college wouldn't do anything about her being sexually harassed by some other students. Suddenly when I pointed out that their federal funding was in trouble if my sister decided to go to the feds over their Title IX violations, they decided to take things a lot more seriously.
2013-02-25 10:27:15 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: IgG4:
Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

most rape victims aren't going to be coherent.  the school should be making sure the cops are involved in any investigation, and if the police determine a rape occurred, then they'll take it from there.  that's what they do after all.  its their job.  the ONLY thing the school should be doing is calling the cops and reporting a possible rape.  then back the hell off and stay out of it.


Exactly.
2013-02-25 10:24:53 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.

What the hell are you talking about?

The proper response is, "oh, shiat, I didn't mean that seriously. Gosh, I now realize that was as inappropriate as McFarlane's jokes last night. I disavow that entire post and beg forgiveness."

Helpful tip: you can copy-paste the above via the edit menu.

Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

She complained to a state authority with state police, and only went to a federal agency because of their lack of response. But that's apparently not good enough for you, because you want to call her "an activist with an axe to grind" so that people will shut her up.  Boy, you sure are angry at being called out on your own words.
And I stand by my original declaration of your Farky. That's incredibly sociopathic, and there's really no excuse for the rest of us to stand idly by and let your words spew out unopposed. As long as people think you have any credibility, you're harmful to society.




Dayum! Female, and right.
2013-02-25 10:24:01 PM  
1 votes:
I didn't know UNC was a Catholic school.
2013-02-25 09:53:11 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me. Multiple accusations against various men, exploiting what ever means she has at her disposal to make her political position heard? Sounds like trouble to me.

Hey, everyone! Sociopath Alert! Set your Farkies.

IgG4:"But I'm just making a joke! Get a sense of humor!"

Sure, sure, Sociopath.
[i1094.photobucket.com image 300x250]
We're on to your kind.


What the hell are you talking about?
2013-02-25 08:16:43 PM  
1 votes:
www.foodiggity.com
 
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