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(Huffington Post)   Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 1269
    More: Sick, Chapel Hill, honor code, sex crimes, Office of Civil Rights, Amherst College, art fair, U.S. Department of Education, graduate students  
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28379 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 01:42:47 PM

Theaetetus: It is irrelevant to the criminal charge, and irrelevant to the police investigating the crime. This may be a shock to you, but they're not the Risk Police.


But a person who shows a repeated pattern of high-risk behaviors may require psychological care.

And then that can be investigated when or if the story changes. It's wrong to presume that the woman is either lying now or will lie such that we need physical evidence against her word. If she later changes her story, then her credibility is diminished, and we can take that into account then.


Unfortunately, bruising (etc) only lasts a few days at most, so by the time the story changes, it's impossible to investigate it at that point. Do we then just take her word for it?
 
2013-02-26 01:44:03 PM

liam76: spiderpaz: I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex. Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie. However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do

Not rape then.


But he was drunk, and therefore could not legally consent.

And, additionally, he consented to just one act, a blow job, and not to sex.
 
2013-02-26 01:44:46 PM

Genevieve Marie: BSABSVR: Genevieve Marie: People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.

Which is why the "my buddy in college was an awesome and funny guy and got falsely accused and I know this because he was my pal and therefore awesome and above such things" anecdote doesn't hold a lot of sway with me. It's certainly possible that decent dude met a super unstable woman, but sometimes that decent dude is secretly a major asshole.

It's also possible that the "unstable" woman who is acting way less cool than she was last night might be acting that way on account of being raped.

Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.


Funny how a couple of biddies can agree on how the word of another human being means nothing, and therefore he's probably a rapist.

Have you farking listened to yourselves?  You sound paranoid and pathetic.
 
2013-02-26 01:46:31 PM

spiderpaz: liam76: spiderpaz: I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex. Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie. However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do

Not rape then.

So, in your opinion, it is okay to be rejected by a girl at the beginning of the night, then follow her while she's drinking, until she's drunk enough to the point that eventually - you can follow her home and weasel your way into her house and continue to come on to her in her drunken stupor, until she just gives in and lets you have your way?


Define the "just give in".  If that decision was based on fear, coercion, or you just wanted to sleep, no.  If it was meh, I wouldn't mind farking right now, yes.

And that previosu "no" was just me thinking it was "ok" it shoudl still be legal.


spiderpaz: Isn't that kind of a dishonest way of circumventing her will to intentionally find her in a state where she's not capable of saying what she really wants?


If the person isn't capable of saying or no or doesn't know what they are sayingt hat is a completely different story.

I have hit on chicks and been shot down only to end up hooking up with them later.  I have blown off chicks sober who I later ended up hooking up with (who I never would have sober).
 
2013-02-26 01:48:23 PM

mesmer242: BarkingUnicorn: It's time to remind everyone that this thread is about a complaint against UNC, not about rape.

It's as if we started out discussing American foreign policy but ended up debating when it's OK to shoot a teenager.  But of course, that never happens on Fark. ;-)

I concur. Rape/sexual assault is the setting, not the plot in this particular case.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013/02/sexual-assault-victim-ch ar ged

This is pretty interesting - UNC spokesperson is claiming that they have nothing to do with and no sway over the Honor Court charges against Gambill. That it's entirely student led.

That's INSANE. Expulsions are entirely under the jurisdiction of undergrads? WTF are they thinking?

[4closurefraud.org image 689x377]


It's bullshiat.  There's a faculty adviser whose job is to monitor the court.  UNC yanked sexual assault from  the court's jurisdiction after this mess blew up, thereby demonstrating it exercises control over the court.  The court cannot expel anyone; it can only recommend expulsion to the administration.
 
2013-02-26 01:48:37 PM

Kahabut: Funny how a couple of biddies can agree on how the word of another human being means nothing, and therefore he's probably a rapist.


Did you not get any of the context on that exchange? The story BSABSVR shared that prompted it?
 
2013-02-26 01:49:05 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: It is irrelevant to the criminal charge, and irrelevant to the police investigating the crime. This may be a shock to you, but they're not the Risk Police.

But a person who shows a repeated pattern of high-risk behaviors may require psychological care.


... Someone reports a rape, and you want to start investigating them for mental health problems?
Hooboy. That's quite possibly the most disgusting thing in this entire thread. Congratulations.

And then that can be investigated when or if the story changes. It's wrong to presume that the woman is either lying now or will lie such that we need physical evidence against her word. If she later changes her story, then her credibility is diminished, and we can take that into account then.

Unfortunately, bruising (etc) only lasts a few days at most, so by the time the story changes, it's impossible to investigate it at that point. Do we then just take her word for it?


You have reading comprehension problems, Fred.
 
2013-02-26 01:50:42 PM

Kahabut: probably a rapist.


Farkied.
 
2013-02-26 01:51:31 PM

ciberido: orbister: [img136.imageshack.us image 850x473]

Yay!  Comics are fun!


AH LITTLE BUDDY
THAT'S THE PROBLEM A
LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE WITH THEM

no real feminist would actually burn a bra , LOL
or have hairy legs, LULZ

all men are garbage

death to christians
 
2013-02-26 01:53:32 PM

liam76: spiderpaz: Isn't that kind of a dishonest way of circumventing her will to intentionally find her in a state where she's not capable of saying what she really wants?

If the person isn't capable of saying or no or doesn't know what they are sayingt hat is a completely different story.

I have hit on chicks and been shot down only to end up hooking up with them later.


What about my story led you to believe I was sober enough to say no?  Also ... I think you might be a serial rapist if you are continually being rejected by women and waiting for them to get drunk so you can fark them.  Do they wake up the next morning sober and want to fark you again?  If not ... it might have been rape and they might just not want to deal with it.

Glad I stuck around - I almost left you on my green list.
 
2013-02-26 02:03:00 PM

Theaetetus: fredklein: Theaetetus: It is irrelevant to the criminal charge, and irrelevant to the police investigating the crime. This may be a shock to you, but they're not the Risk Police.

But a person who shows a repeated pattern of high-risk behaviors may require psychological care.

... Someone reports a rape, and you want to start investigating them for mental health problems?


The example referred to was a drunk walking down an alley at 4am in the bad part of town with money hanging out of his pockets.

And, YES, if this is the 7th time he's done it, he has a problem.

If she later changes her story, then her credibility is diminished, and we can take that into account then.
...
You have reading comprehension problems, Fred.


Her credibility is Not diminished. She is simply 'remembering more details' of the 'horrible trauma'. Conveniently after the chance to collect actual evidence has gone.

Anyway- Point is, if evidence is time sensitive (like medical evidence is- bruises and scratches heal), you need to collect it while it still exists.
 
2013-02-26 02:06:44 PM
dready zim: You may have missed it but in my example it is a MAN who cannot remember. Can HE also claim rape? You would seem to say `yes` unless you have ...

Legios: Yes, he can. Legally it's more tricky because of physiology, you're likely to get medical experts claiming (in court) he couldn't possibly get it up if he was that drunk. But absolutely. I'm... Not entirely sure why you're thinking I'm taking the female side of this.

This is a problem for both men AND women.  There have been many, many cases in which a rape victim's body responded with sexual arousal.  It can be a source of great shame and confusion (on top of all the other shame and confusion that rape can cause) because on some level there's this thought "If I got wet (had an erection), then I must have wanted it."

And yes, IANAL but I believe that the victim's physical arousal has been used by the defense in more than one rape case.
 
2013-02-26 02:08:56 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: fredklein: Theaetetus: It is irrelevant to the criminal charge, and irrelevant to the police investigating the crime. This may be a shock to you, but they're not the Risk Police.

But a person who shows a repeated pattern of high-risk behaviors may require psychological care.

... Someone reports a rape, and you want to start investigating them for mental health problems?


The example referred to was a drunk walking down an alley at 4am in the bad part of town with money hanging out of his pockets.

And, YES, if this is the 7th time he's done it, he has a problem.


Where did you come up with this serial rape victim hypothetical that you're analogizing to?

If she later changes her story, then her credibility is diminished, and we can take that into account then.
...
You have reading comprehension problems, Fred.

Her credibility is Not diminished. She is simply 'remembering more details' of the 'horrible trauma'. Conveniently after the chance to collect actual evidence has gone.


That would make me skeptical. Why not you?

Anyway- Point is, if evidence is time sensitive (like medical evidence is- bruises and scratches heal), you need to collect it while it still exists.

And if the victim is saying "fark you, there's no scratches, I was unconscious" you don't get to say "we're going to give you a full body exam and an invasive gynecological procedure, and if you disagree, then you must be mentally ill and we'll have you committed... unless you'd rather just not press charges."
 
2013-02-26 02:10:20 PM

spiderpaz: liam76: spiderpaz: Isn't that kind of a dishonest way of circumventing her will to intentionally find her in a state where she's not capable of saying what she really wants?

If the person isn't capable of saying or no or doesn't know what they are sayingt hat is a completely different story.

I have hit on chicks and been shot down only to end up hooking up with them later.

What about my story led you to believe I was sober enough to say no?


You could talk, you could remember it, you had the ability to say, "sure why not" (your words) and you did instead of booting her out.  If that isn;t what happened you need to work on your story.


spiderpaz: Also ... I think you might be a serial rapist if you are continually being rejected by women and waiting for them to get drunk so you can fark them.


So once you hit on a girl and she says no you never talk to her again?

If you talk to her again later on in the evening and she is more receptive you must have been sitting around waiting for her to get drunk?

You are pulling a lot of conclusions out that are in no way supported by what I said.


spiderpaz: Do they wake up the next morning sober and want to fark you again?


Sometimes.

spiderpaz: If not ... it might have been rape and they might just not want to deal with it.


So if soemone doesn't want sex in the morning that is a good infication of rape, and the person consenting that night doesn't matter?  Really?


spiderpaz: Glad I stuck around - I almost left you on my green list


No big loss, you have always been on my moron list.
 
2013-02-26 02:13:03 PM

Halophilic: Callous: And I should be able to make a left turn on a green arrow without having to make sure the on coming traffic doesn't blow the red light.

So what you're saying is that it's a complete waste of time for me to be cautious of drivers that aren't following the rules or paying attention to the road?


I said exactly the opposite.  Try and keep up.
 
2013-02-26 02:16:20 PM

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Legios: Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

Dunno what the laws are in your part of the world, but here (UK) you will be prosecuted and if found guilty you will go to prison for driving drunk, whether or not you have an accident. A friend of mine who is a magistrate tells me that it is not uncommon for the accused to claim drunkenness as a mitigating factor in a wide variety of crimes - assault, theft, that sort of thing - and that they get an unpleasant surprise when they find that the courts view it as an aggravating factor. "Everybody knows that getting drunk decreases your reasoning powers, so if you get drunk and commit a crime you have to take responsibility both for the crime and for getting drunk" seems to be the view.

Being drunk while woman is not a crime. That's where this analogy falls apart spectacularly.


And people make stupid decisions while drunk.  And here's where the problem lies.  A guy gets drunk and farks the fat chick.  He gets over it.  A woman gets drunk and farks the nerd.  The next day she files rape charges.

There are predator types who target drunk women.  Those types are, by definition, rapists and belong in prison.  But to destroy someone's life because you made stupid choices is just as immoral.
 
2013-02-26 02:27:33 PM

liam76: No big loss, you have always been on my moran list.


aka Fark.com
 
2013-02-26 02:33:10 PM

Onkel Buck: The Peoples Republic of Chapel Hill does all it can to protect it liberal image


Yes.  Exactly.  Liberalism is the REAL problem in this story.

Please be a troll.
 
2013-02-26 02:36:58 PM

dready zim: orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

very well put. Bravo.


Indeed, I suppose if one likes blaming the victim as much as orbister and dready zim do, it's no surprise they should cheer each other on.
 
2013-02-26 02:38:18 PM

ciberido: Onkel Buck: The Peoples Republic of Chapel Hill does all it can to protect it liberal image

Yes.  Exactly.  Liberalism is the REAL problem in this story.

Please be a troll.


It was actually quite the 'talking point' in the local news comments. wral.
 
2013-02-26 02:46:24 PM
Callous:

Because the first thing they are going to want to do is take her pants off and and touch her in places that she is already a little sensitive about considering the nature of the assault she suffered.  Can you not understand why she would be at least apprehensive?

12 months after the fact?  You farkin numbnuts.  She claims she has tons of evidence to convict him... and yet she still won't show it to the cops.
 
2013-02-26 02:47:08 PM
Please continue to repost until this thread closes. As often as you can.

http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/
 
2013-02-26 02:47:53 PM

OgreMagi: There are predator types who target drunk women. Those types are, by definition, rapists and belong in prison. But to destroy someone's life because you made stupid choices is just as immoral.


Wow, a lot of people making points similar to this in this thread.  It reminds me of the people who wanted to threadjack the Newton memorial service threads and turn them into NRA meetings, and talk about/post pictures of their guns in a thread about murdered children.

The point is, this article is about a woman who was raped, and the institution responsible for her safety is trying to intimidate her into silence.  You have no evidence that the woman in TFA is just trying to cover for a "stupid choice", and fark you for trying to plant this suggestion. Your behavior is disgusting, and you need to learn when it is appropriate to STFU.
 
2013-02-26 02:50:24 PM

udhq: The point is, this article is about a woman who was raped, and the institution responsible for her safety is trying to intimidate her into silence.


No.  It's about a woman who claims she was raped, but has refused to go to the police with her "mountain of evidence", and wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.
 
2013-02-26 03:00:06 PM

orbister: Genevieve Marie: In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.

The alleged victim. Nobody should be able to mess around with someone else's studies like that without proving a case.


Yeah, now you're either outright lying or did not read the article OR the thread because that talking post was raised and trounched over a hundred posts ago.

I'm done.  You are one seriously damaged and dangerous individual.  Get some help.
 
2013-02-26 03:01:49 PM

DebinCO: Please continue to repost until this thread closes. As often as you can.

http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/


while it happened...at a Christian event. ~link

say no more, we understand what the problem is

tolerance of christianity is tolerance of rape

death to all christians
 
2013-02-26 03:18:08 PM

Theaetetus: And if the victim is saying "fark you, there's no scratches, I was unconscious" you don't get to say "we're going to give you a full body exam and an invasive gynecological procedure, and if you disagree, then you must be mentally ill and we'll have you committed... unless you'd rather just not press charges."


Well, if she was unconscious then exactly how does she know there aren't other injuries or evidence?? Maybe she was raped by two men, and can both put in jail?

But... I'll agree to that, if you'll agree that she cannot later claim any sort of physical injury ('scratches') that the exam would have turned up at the time.
 
2013-02-26 03:24:52 PM
fredklein: Theaetetus: And if the victim is saying "fark you, there's no scratches, I was unconscious" you don't get to say "we're going to give you a full body exam and an invasive gynecological procedure, and if you disagree, then you must be mentally ill and we'll have you committed... unless you'd rather just not press charges."

Well, if she was unconscious then exactly how does she know there aren't other injuries or evidence??


Presumably at some point before talking to the cops and telling she doesn't have any injuries, she woke up, and noticed she had no injuries. This isn't Psychic Detectives.

Maybe she was raped by two men, and can both put in jail?

That's always a possibility. In fact, any time a woman wakes up, she doesn't know if she was raped by two men in her sleep. Therefore, by your logic, we should require all women to have invasive gynecological exams every morning. Just in case.

But wait... What about  you, Fred? You were asleep last night, too... Better get a proctologist in here, stat. You could've been gang banged by an entire football team. And if you say "that's not necessary," then we're also going to call in a psychiatrist to review your mental state.

But... I'll agree to that, if you'll agree that she cannot later claim any sort of physical injury ('scratches') that the exam would have turned up at the time.

And now you want to abolish free speech? Nice, Fred.

How about this... As I said originally, if a victim says she had a physical injury and there's no still healing evidence of it, we can be reasonably skeptical, mmkay? We don't need to place an injunction on her preventing her from ever uttering those words, merely because she said she didn't want a full body exam.
 
2013-02-26 03:25:36 PM

OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.


What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.
 
2013-02-26 03:29:15 PM
Those of you saying a drunk rape survivor is to blame for her victimization...

Would you deny justice to someone who was brutally beaten and robbed while drunk? Dismiss the whole case even if the attack left him paralyzed?

If you the answer is no, then why treat a rape  victim that way?
 
2013-02-26 03:33:35 PM

Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.


I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.
 
2013-02-26 03:38:59 PM

Weaver95: But the university has over 60 women all with similar stories.  kinda makes me wonder what's going on on with that campus and why the school administration tanked the discussion and shuffled it off to kiddie court.


If that has indeed been their practice, and if the campus has as result become an intimidating place for women, then I agree completely. That's because I think rape is a serious matter which should be taken seriously, investigated diligently, prosecuted thoroughly and punished severely. It is far too important to be left to a student tribunal, or to the whim of the administration.
 
2013-02-26 03:48:41 PM

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but exactly how far are women expected to go to mitigate risk? And do you see why it's such an impossible standard to demand of women- the idea that all or most rapes can be prevented if only we're careful enough? And how irksome it is to hear some dude spout off something about risk management like he's just discovered the theory of relativity when what he's talking about is second nature to most women?


You know, I'm beginning to feel either quite sorry for you or quite repelled by you, and I'm not sure which it is.

Your life, as you described it, is one of utterly irrational fear, universal suspicion and crippling paranoia. If you really are afraid to get into lifts with strangers (why? most rapes are committed by acquaintances) and constantly check behind you with a small mirror, then I feel sympathy. You urgently need a sense of proportion, and possibly some therapy to get it.

However, I've notice on this and other rape threads, that you always try to twist things so it's about you. Oh yes, it starts with some token sympathy for someone who has been raped, or who has claimed to have been raped, but it always seems to get back to how it makes you feel, how it makes you lead your life, back to you, you, you.

Well, guess what. It's not all about you, and I find the idea of hijacking the horrible experiences of others and of claiming victim status for yourself really quite unpleasant. Women, and rape victims, deserve a lot better than that.
 
2013-02-26 03:55:32 PM
All I'm saying is people should take personal responsibility for the situations they put themselves in. Doesn't make it any less traumatic nor apprehensible. Doesn't mean they don't deserve justice. Rape goes both ways. My best friend's brother was underaged drinking at some party, was drugged, and some bad things happened to him. It screwed him up, and the guy refuses to sleep in a bed anymore. What did he do? He stayed the hell away from those situations, and he learned to control his drinking. It doesn't make me want to ruin the people responsible for it any less, and if I ever found out for a fact who it was I would probably go to jail if I were found out. He just took personal responsibility for putting himself in a shady situation. He's still a victim, and it was still traumatic, and I still want to sterilize the ones responsible.
 
2013-02-26 03:58:44 PM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: 'll NEVER understand why people who are victims of crime insist upon going to their school, or employer, to have those allegations investigated. If somebody sexually assaulted me, I'd first call the police and THEN inform the school so that they may begin an investigation to possibly expel the person, while the police are working the criminal aspect of it.


In my case, I'd go to my employer because they DO operate police forces with the power to arrest, and the local 'courthouse' is in the admin building across the street.  Some colleges run their own full police departments.

Still, 'rape' gets complicated.  You'd think that it's relatively simple, but it isn't.  There's a lot of mental issues bound up.  Heck, there's cases where the person wants the rapist punished, but feel that the legal punishment is so over the top that they don't report it.  That's what it sounds like here - the 'honor system' would punish the rapist a more legitimate amount in her thoughts.  Or perhaps would be easier on her.  Can't say, don't know.

In this case though, it's dealing with the school/work issues brought upon by the attack/rape that is the issue at hand.  Apparently the school isn't sympathetic enough(I'd agree by default with the evidence given; my opinion is subject to change upon more information).

nekulor: Less than 1% of all self-reported cases of rape are false accusations, so I think you're buying into the bullshiat right wing talking point and defending a pretty indefensible and misogynistic position.


Please note:  I'm for the truth.  Wikipedia lists various 'false rape reporting' statistics.  They're all over the place, varying from a low of 1.5% all the way to 90%.  Going by the median, it'd be 18.2%, average would be 21.7%.

FBI and British home office statistics both nail it at 8% - I view this as a good estimate; while it probably falsely considers some rape reports as fake, it also doesn't account for false reports resulting in conviction/charges/non-guilty by reason of insufficient evidence rather than 'false report'.

Genevieve Marie: That's actually a pretty common occurrence. That's why it's pretty generally understood that one of the reasons the rape rate is so high is because the same rapist generally commits multiple rapes. Often, that's what it also takes for a conviction- multiple cases that establish a pattern against someone.


I was just in a briefing last week.  One of the quoted statistics is that each rapist commits between 17 and 18 rapes, on average, before being convicted.  If true and 10% of women end up raped once(or more) times in their life, that translates to less than 1% of men being rapists.

Other statistics off the top of my head - 1 in 3 reported rapes end in conviction.  While lousy, if everybody who's raped reported it, it'd drop the number of average rapes per offender(most stop after 1 conviction and sentence) down to about 3.  Or 20% of what it is currently.  I'd call that great progress.

Also, as a general note I'll admit that while I think that it should be an adult's right to do what drugs that they will, with the caveat that doing drugs(or amounts of drugs) that cause them to become impaired, irrational, or even unconscious around people you might not trust is just plain stupid.
 
2013-02-26 04:17:58 PM

Genevieve Marie: However? NO ONE HAS AN INALIENABLE RIGHT TO A GOOD REPUTATION.


You could have avoided this entire debate if you would equally apply that standard to the psycho false-rape-accuser chick.

/See what I did there?
 
2013-02-26 04:19:34 PM

Theaetetus: Presumably at some point before talking to the cops and telling she doesn't have any injuries, she woke up, and noticed she had no injuries. This isn't Psychic Detectives.


Because all injuries are immediately apparent to a layman, even when in a state of shock.

Gee, why do we even need doctors?

That's always a possibility. In fact, any time a woman wakes up, she doesn't know if she was raped by two men in her sleep. Therefore, by your logic, we should require all women to have invasive gynecological exams every morning. Just in case.

But wait... What about you, Fred? You were asleep last night, too... Better get a proctologist in here, stat. You could've been gang banged by an entire football team. And if you say "that's not necessary," then we're also going to call in a psychiatrist to review your mental state.


Now you're just being silly.

How about this... As I said originally, if a victim says she had a physical injury and there's no still healing evidence of it, we can be reasonably skeptical, mmkay?

We agree in essence. You just want to rely on people's ability to be 'reasonably skeptical' of baseless claims (in complete defiance of tons of evidence that many/most people are biased as hell), while my suggestion avoids the issue entirely.
 
2013-02-26 04:20:57 PM

Dokushin: You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape." Just like no one had to tell me not to murder. Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape. There are criminals among us. We need to do more to look after their mental health and to perhaps cure them of the diseases that destroy their ability to reason. But men are not criminals, and they do not need to be taught how to have respect for others. All men are not potential rapists, and they don't deserve to be treated like they are.


You know on the one hand this kind of talk bothers the shiat out of me.  "Men need to just not rape," is a statement of shall we say questionable value because MOST of humanity isn't able to commit that kind of crime without some kind of chemical assistance to help break down their inhibition to harming another person.  The damn ARMY had to launch a massive program in the 50s to try and socialize their soldiers to kill because most of the enlisted men were normal every day guys who didn't want to fight and kill.  The general estimate was that in most combat situations in WWII only 1 in 5 soldiers actually fired his weapon at an enemy.  The rest either didn't fire or shot into the air.  Nobody needs to be "taught not to rape," because anyone who might actually need to be told almost certainly isn't going to have their eyes opened to the wrongness of forceably farking someone.  We've done a good job of expanding awareness of, and cracking down on chemically aided date-rape

HOWEVER, as a man who lives with a woman who can be very frank about her emotions in any situation, I have come to understand that the majority of situations where I, as a 6'2'' 205 pound perceive absolutely no danger, she can be extremely on her guard and will explain to me why she's on edge.  I wouldn't even think to be scared because a parking garage was really dark or something, but that kind of thing makes her very nervous.  And she's got a right to be, there's no reason she should think that giving some stranger she sees in a poorly lit enclosed space the benefit of the doubt is a clever idea.  She will routinely treat situations I'd be totally oblivious to as dangerous, and in hindsight I typically applaud her judgement, even though I think its sad she needs to exercise it so religiously.

That kind of statement drives me crazy because its totally useless and unproductive, but the sentiment that informs it is very real.
 
2013-02-26 04:21:38 PM

OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.


This isn't a small Catholic School. This is UNC-Chapel Hill.
 
2013-02-26 04:21:56 PM

OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.


Can you prove that?
 
2013-02-26 04:24:34 PM

Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.

Can you prove that?


Yes, by going to the campus and hanging around for a week or two.
 
2013-02-26 04:27:41 PM

liam76: spiderpaz: If not ... it might have been rape and they might just not want to deal with it.

So if soemone doesn't want sex in the morning that is a good infication of rape


I've never hooked up with someone that didn't want it again the next day ... but maybe that's a result of skill and endowment.  Maybe that's why they didn't want anything to do with you when they were sober.  Regardless, if it's commonplace for you that, after sleeping with someone, they don't want anything to do with you, it's a clue that you may have done something wrong.  And that thing can range all the way from terrible-sex to rape.
 
2013-02-26 04:29:39 PM

OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.

Can you prove that?

Yes, by going to the campus and hanging around for a week or two.


Hey, I'm nearby. Com'on down, I'll meet you at The Rathskeller.
 
2013-02-26 04:32:22 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: Presumably at some point before talking to the cops and telling she doesn't have any injuries, she woke up, and noticed she had no injuries. This isn't Psychic Detectives.

Because all injuries are immediately apparent to a layman, even when in a state of shock.

Gee, why do we even need doctors?


If her injury becomes apparent a day later, she'll have physical evidence of the injury.  Your hypothetical involves a woman having an injury that she doesn't know about and never finds out about until its completely healed, at which point she can't show any evidence it ever existed.
Raising the question, of course, of how she ever found out about it to bring it up to the jury: "I was injured last month, and it completely healed two weeks ago, but I just found out about it yesterday. I noticed the absence of any scar, you see."

Frankly, the logic in your hypothetical is... non-existent.

But wait... What about you, Fred? You were asleep last night, too... Better get a proctologist in here, stat. You could've been gang banged by an entire football team. And if you say "that's not necessary," then we're also going to call in a psychiatrist to review your mental state.

Now you're just being silly.


It was the same question you asked. How can she know she wasn't raped by two guys without a medical examination, because she was unconscious? How can you know? If you want to force her to undergo a medical examination, then why not you?

How about this... As I said originally, if a victim says she had a physical injury and there's no still healing evidence of it, we can be reasonably skeptical, mmkay?

We agree in essence. You just want to rely on people's ability to be 'reasonably skeptical' of baseless claims (in complete defiance of tons of evidence that many/most people are biased as hell), while my suggestion avoids the issue entirely.


Yes, your suggestion stifles free speech and puts a victim in an uncomfortable position of either having to immediately go through an invasive full body medical examination or never be able to talk about any injuries.
 
2013-02-26 04:33:55 PM

OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.

Can you prove that?

Yes, by going to the campus and hanging around for a week or two.


Then please do so before you publicly accuse someone of slander, without evidence.
 
2013-02-26 04:47:36 PM

Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: Theaetetus: OgreMagi: wants to be allowed to continue to defame her alleged rapist without consequences.

What's his name?

If you can't name him, then you can't claim she's defaming him.

I'm sure everyone on the campus knows exactly who she's talking about.

Can you prove that?

Yes, by going to the campus and hanging around for a week or two.

Then please do so before you publicly accuse someone of slander rape, without evidence.

 
2013-02-26 04:53:23 PM

Theaetetus: Your hypothetical involves a woman having an injury that she doesn't know about and never finds out about until its completely healed, at which point she can't show any evidence it ever existed.


Not at all. Having an injury she doesn't know about, then finding out about it later and not reporting it. "Oh, gee, I just now noticed these scratches on my back. I'm not going to go back to the hospital to tell them about it..."

It was the same question you asked. How can she know she wasn't raped by two guys without a medical examination, because she was unconscious? How can you know? If you want to force her to undergo a medical examination, then why not you?

By that logic, how'd she know she was raped at all??

Yes, your suggestion stifles free speech and puts a victim in an uncomfortable position of either having to immediately go through an invasive full body medical examination or never be able to talk about any injuries.

Excluding 'evidence' with no basis is hardly 'stifling Free Speech'. And, YES, as I said before, if you have time-sensitive evidence, it needs to be gathered in a timely manner, no matter how inconvenient or bothersome it might be. If you don't have it gathered in time, too bad.
 
2013-02-26 04:54:20 PM
img24.imageshack.us

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this thread. The fact that I've been reading through this thread all day in my spare time has made me very concerned for my mental health.
 
2013-02-26 04:54:36 PM

orbister: Your life, as you described it, is one of utterly irrational fear, universal suspicion and crippling paranoia. If you really are afraid to get into lifts with strangers (why? most rapes are committed by acquaintances) and constantly check behind you with a small mirror, then I feel sympathy. You urgently need a sense of proportion, and possibly some therapy to get it.


She also seems to think that she's the normal one and that anyone who doesn't behave this way or have this level of fear is either a man or in some kind of denial and desperate to prove to men that she's 'not like most women'.

It appears to me to be some kind of absolutely desperate need for her to think that crippling fear and paranoia are normal and that there's nothing wrong with how she views the world.

Super_pope: HOWEVER, as a man who lives with a woman who can be very frank about her emotions in any situation, I have come to understand that the majority of situations where I, as a 6'2'' 205 pound perceive absolutely no danger, she can be extremely on her guard and will explain to me why she's on edge. I wouldn't even think to be scared because a parking garage was really dark or something, but that kind of thing makes her very nervous. And she's got a right to be, there's no reason she should think that giving some stranger she sees in a poorly lit enclosed space the benefit of the doubt is a clever idea. She will routinely treat situations I'd be totally oblivious to as dangerous, and in hindsight I typically applaud her judgement, even though I think its sad she needs to exercise it so religiously.


And yet you as a male are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than a woman is.

Other than being aware of my surroundings and noticing whether or not a stranger is doing something that indicates they may be up to no good, I don't really walk around in a state like Defcon 2 at all times. It takes something specific, more than just the presence of a stranger for me to be 'on edge'. I don't consider the parking garage to be particularly dangerous myself, and walk along at a normal pace, head up, with confidence.. not scurrying to my car with my keys in one hand and my other thumb on the 911 button on my phone because quite frankly I'm not actually going about my life expecting the bogeyman to jump out at any second.

I can't imagine living like that. Fearfulness is not my natural state, and never has been. This is not due to some kind of male privilege or desire to show men that I am tough and confident. I am not a fearful person. I do not see unfathomable danger around every corner and in every stranger's face, and I am baffled as shiat by people who do and even more so by people who think that's normal.
 
2013-02-26 05:00:59 PM

spiderpaz: serial_crusher: If you tell a guy no, then get voluntarily drunk and change your mind, it's not rape; it's you changing your mind.

WTF?  If you want to fark a girl and she doesn't want to fark you, and your response is to just hang out with her and pretend to be her friend until she is drunk enough to make the mistake of farking you, THAT makes you a predator ... and a two-faced, shiatty friend.


Yeah, my wording wasn't precise enough.  Statement only valid for cases where the alleged rapist believes you're legitimately consenting.
 
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