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(Huffington Post)   Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 1269
    More: Sick, Chapel Hill, honor code, sex crimes, Office of Civil Rights, Amherst College, art fair, U.S. Department of Education, graduate students  
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28398 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 12:36:26 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Of what relevance would such statistics be? Equal protection does not depend on equal frequency of need for it.


Of course it doesn't. It does however influence the conversation around the subject. Men can get breast cancer, but there's a reason breast cancer is generally framed as a women's issue- sheer numbers.
 
2013-02-26 12:36:42 PM  

fredklein: Theaetetus: fredklein: The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.

OR the cops can use the exact same guidelines and lines of questioning they do when investigating theft or fraud, and ask about whether there was consent, rather than ask what she was wearing or how much she had to drink or whether she knew how much it would harm the reputation of this nice boy.

While I certainly hold no love for the police, I can see how those things might be relevant. And if they were, I see no problem in the cops asking those questions.

For instance, If I was mugged, it's a different story if I was sober and had my money in my wallet, as opposed to being blind drunk, staggering down an alley in the bad part of town at 4am with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets. In the latter case, I think almost all of Fark would join together in saying "Wow, that was stupid and he deserved what happened to him". Or, at the least, "Well, he didn't 'deserve it', but what did he think would happen when he did something stupid like that". But dare say something like that when it's a rape, and you're a "pro-rape apologist".

If the answers were not relevant, then I'd ask for the cops supervisor, and call my lawyer.


No, it's not a different story if you were sober or blind drunk. Mugging is still mugging. There is no exception in the law for being drunk, in an alley, at 4AM in a bad part of town with money hanging out of your pockets. It's not a defense to a mugging charge, and is not an element the prosecution needs to prove or disprove. It's entirely irrelevant.

In any case, that does nothing to change the fact that a medical exam is necessary.

That kind of depends on what the complaint is. If both people agreed they had sex, and the only issue is consent, then a medical exam may not be necessary at all. Do you need a medical exam if you say I stole $50 from you, and I say you gave me $50?
 
2013-02-26 12:38:59 PM  

Genevieve Marie: liam76: Genevieve Marie: It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose to deal with what happened to them

Then maybe people shouldn't treat anyone discussing their story as somebody who is saying they are lying about the rape.

Or you know, people should understand that questioning the details of someone's very personal account of their rape is impolite and learn how to ask questions in a more sensitive way.

Polite: God, that's terrible and I'm sorry you went through that. Out of curiosity, why did you feel so insignificant when you were in high school in comparison to your rapist?

Impolite: Oh so you weren't popular but you were? Which was it?


By all means say how I asked was impolite, but it is dishonest, stupid or out of touch with reality to pretend that means I am sayingt the rape story was a lie.

spiderpaz: If you want to fark a girl and she doesn't want to fark you, and your response is to just hang out with her and pretend to be her friend until she is drunk enough to make the mistake of farking you, THAT makes you a predator ... and a two-faced, shiatty friend.


I have run into a number of female predators then...

If the person isn't mistaking you for someone else and is saying yes, I can't really think how that is rape.  Just because you wouldn't sleep wiht that person sober doesn't make it rape.
 
2013-02-26 12:39:22 PM  

COMALite J: BarkingUnicorn: COMALite J: BarkingUnicorn: Damn, you really know your imaginary history!

Which part is imaginary? That Clayton Williams really said that? That it cost him the election? That Ann Richards won because of that? That George W. Bush was able to run against her afterwards because the GOP had no incumbent in the race? That George W. Bush could never have been taken seriously enough to run for, let alone become, President, without first being Governor of a State or a U.S. Senator? That George W. Bush's two terms, which could not have happened without that joke, seriously messed up this nation?

That we'd be $4 trillion richer if Bush hadn't been elected.

This must be some new definition of "imaginary" with which I had been previously unaware. Note that that's just the Iraq war and its ancilliary expenses. That doesn't count the other wars, the other fiscal boondoggles, the overall mismanagement of the economy, etc. Note also that this article is from The Wall Street Journal, not 'zactly the libbest lib media that ever libbed.

We were told that the bill would come to, at most, $80 billion ― $50 billion at the low end. Remember, Bush fired his economic advisor Lawrence Libby for daring to suggest that it might be as much as $200 billion ― less than $¼ trillion! It turned out to be the reciprocal of that many trillion, 16 (sixteen-fold) the estimate that Libby was canned for daring to suggest!


And nobody but Bush would have done that.  It couldn't have happened without him.
 
2013-02-26 12:39:30 PM  

Theaetetus: Callous: Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.

Knowing that the majority of rapes are date or acquaintance rapes, rather than strangers in dark parking lots, what "very obvious" suggestions would you give, since "don't park there" isn't going help anyone with their roommate or that guy from down the hall?


Don't let anything you eat or drink out of your sight, etc.  There isn't much that can be done about a guy that tries to physically overpower a woman, either she can fight him off or she can't.   Although I do like those little key-chain pepper spray canisters.  I'm no authority on the subject but I'm sure there are some simple precautions that can be taken lessen the risk of date/acquaintance rape without adopting a paranoid lifestyle.
 
2013-02-26 12:40:55 PM  

orbister: [img136.imageshack.us image 850x473]


Yay!  Comics are fun!
 
2013-02-26 12:43:24 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Or we can understand that not all rapists are going to be convicted and face jail time and some of them are going to walk free because their victims would prefer to protect their own mental health and privacy and that while this is terribly unjust, it's how the real world works.


If that's what she chooses, then that what she chose. HER choice.

We can also acknowledge that just because a crime is not reported does not mean it never existed.

Legally, that's exactly what it means.

It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose to deal with what happened to them.

Treat her as a liar? Not necessarily. As a fool? Yes. There was a system set up to handle things like that, and she deliberately chose to not to take advantage of it, for whatever reason.

It reminds me of a lot of customer service stories: Customer wants to return a damaged purchase, but gets pissed off when told they are outside of the return period. They had a chance to use the system, but chose to not do so, and now they whine and biatch about how unfair it is.
 
2013-02-26 12:45:59 PM  
60?

Fire the entire board.
 
2013-02-26 12:46:11 PM  

fredklein: It reminds me of a lot of customer service stories: Customer wants to return a damaged purchase, but gets pissed off when told they are outside of the return period. They had a chance to use the system, but chose to not do so, and now they whine and biatch about how unfair it is.


My mistake. I made the mistake of treating you like a human being capable of empathy for a second there.

God, your poor daughters.
 
2013-02-26 12:47:26 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."

I was raped by a woman in college.  Woke up with a killer hangover and all I wanted to do was die.  Every movement was agony.  But she was a lusty wench.

"Let's fark," she said.

"No, I'm in too much pain," I groaned.

"I'll fix that," she grinned, and went down on me.

"Stop," I moaned. But she ignored me.

Then she exerted force to impale herself on me.  That wasn't me penetrating her.

So yeah, it happens.  I doubt I could  have gotten a conviction, especially given our ongoing conduct after the crime.

Tricky situation.


I had a stalker in college for a bit.  This girl I met in one of my general ed classes became sort of obsessed with me and wouldn't take the hint.  It was really hard, because I'm too nice to just be blunt and tell her I don't want to be her friend or fark-buddy or anything, and I just kept trying to let her down easy.

Anyway, eventually me and my roommate are out at a party in Isla Vista, black out drunk (memories are a bit spotty), and this girl finds me and we talk a bit and I keep trying to shrug her off and lose her at the party so that I can find someone else to hook up with.  Eventually me and my roommate left and went home (after striking out), and while we're grilling some quesadillas, one of my other roommates (also wasted) says there's a girl standing out front looking at the house.  It was her.  Obviously followed me home.  I opened the door to look out and she pretends like she was just walking home or something and that she was surprised to see me.  Somehow she invited herself in and ends up getting me alone in my room and we end up hooking up.  All I remember about "the act" is that I didn't want to fark her, so I just let her blow me, despite her best efforts to turn it into vaginal sex.

The next morning I told her I wanted to get breakfast so I took her to get a breakfast burrito and told her I never wanted to see her again, instead of trying to let her down easy again.

Was it rape?  I felt ashamed that I let this crazy biatch in my bed, and I totally regretted it.  She knew I wasn't into her.  I don't know.  I'd say it was partially my fault.  My roommates didn't really help either.  I'd say it probably meets a lot of people's definition of rape.  I wouldn't really wish ill of the girl or anything though or want to press charges.  I think that when it happens to men, they don't take it so hard partially because society doesn't make men to feel like a slut after something like that.  And that's probably a big part of why it's so rare to see it reported.
 
2013-02-26 12:48:26 PM  

GranoblasticMan: This is one of the most depressing threads I've read on Fark.


This is LESS bad than most of the Fark rape threads I've been in.  Seriously.
 
2013-02-26 12:50:02 PM  

spiderpaz: I wouldn't really wish ill of the girl or anything though or want to press charges. I think that when it happens to men, they don't take it so hard partially because society doesn't make men to feel like a slut after something like that. And that's probably a big part of why it's so rare to see it reported.


I would completely agree with that actually- that the differences in how men and women are viewed when it comes to sexuality and the different ways we're socialized are a major reason for the numbers disparity. Men and women are often conditioned to think about sex in very different (and really harmful) ways.
 
2013-02-26 12:51:20 PM  

Callous: Theaetetus: Callous: Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.

Knowing that the majority of rapes are date or acquaintance rapes, rather than strangers in dark parking lots, what "very obvious" suggestions would you give, since "don't park there" isn't going help anyone with their roommate or that guy from down the hall?

Don't let anything you eat or drink out of your sight, etc.


What if there are no drugs involved, and we're just talking about drinking? I've gotten blitzed with my buddies... Is your suggestion that women shouldn't get to participate in that type of partying?

There isn't much that can be done about a guy that tries to physically overpower a woman, either she can fight him off or she can't.   Although I do like those little key-chain pepper spray canisters.  I'm no authority on the subject but I'm sure there are some simple precautions that can be taken lessen the risk of date/acquaintance rape without adopting a paranoid lifestyle.

Not really, particularly because date/acquaintance rape tends to be the "get her passed out drunk" rather than the "hold her down". Pepper spray isn't going to do much, unless you're willing to pepper spray someone every time your BAC gets above a .08, just in case.
 
2013-02-26 12:52:41 PM  

dready zim: Genevieve Marie: dready zim: You know, all I can think of is the other thread where men were trying to convince women that `that guy friend` actually really wants to hit you like the fist of an angry god and the women were all like "Nah, he`s my friend, he wouldn`t do that"

Then those women went out for a friendly drink with that guy and ended up in this thread...

Sigh. The whole "Oh ladies, any time you're friends with a guy, it can't be because he likes you and values you as a human, it is clearly all just a ruse to get to your vagina" trope is pretty obnoxious too.

You may find it obnoxious but that doesn`t stop it being true.


Nor does my finding you obnoxious make it true.

Frankly, it's transparently false and (assuming you're not trolling) by repeating it you're really just telling us what YOU think of women.
 
2013-02-26 12:53:40 PM  

liam76: spiderpaz: If you want to fark a girl and she doesn't want to fark you, and your response is to just hang out with her and pretend to be her friend until she is drunk enough to make the mistake of farking you, THAT makes you a predator ... and a two-faced, shiatty friend.

I have run into a number of female predators then...

If the person isn't mistaking you for someone else and is saying yes, I can't really think how that is rape. Just because you wouldn't sleep wiht that person sober doesn't make it rape.


You probably have.  See my story above.  That's actually pretty damn common.  But men don't report it.  It still is technically rape, even though men don't feel as violated after the fact.
 
2013-02-26 12:53:47 PM  

vygramul: Amos Quito: Don't y'all DARE be 'cusin no Norf Car'lina rape victim of lyin, now.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 320x297]

[img2-cdn.newser.com image 240x160]

Sumboddy mite git hurt.

Still doing everything in your power to demonstrate you're not a bigot, I see.



Bigoted against who?

Those who ruin lives by making false accusations and are later charged with murder?

People who speak in the drawling Southern slang so commonly heard in Norf Car'lina?
 
2013-02-26 12:55:54 PM  

Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Of what relevance would such statistics be? Equal protection does not depend on equal frequency of need for it.

Of course it doesn't. It does however influence the conversation around the subject. Men can get breast cancer, but there's a reason breast cancer is generally framed as a women's issue- sheer numbers.


Christ, you're still awake?  I am in awe of your stamina as well as your debate skills and decency, my dear!   Seriously, no snark.

The danger of such statistics is that they tend to shape the debate in ways that marginalize the minority victims.  Then the marginalized push back and we get resistance to the worthiness of the majority's claim to justice.

Yes, I resent the title, "Violence Against Women Act," and the creation of an Office of Violence Against Women.  "Gender neutrality" is just a footnote in the appendix of that law and the debate about it.  You see where that one discriminatory word leads?
 
2013-02-26 12:56:18 PM  

Genevieve Marie: My best friend is a man. We've been best friends for twelve years. We lived together for three. Our friendship has always been platonic and neither of us has ever tried to change that. If that's why we're friends, he's playing a hell of a long game.


I would argue a lot of this is either projection ("what I would do in that case") or false-consensus, if not both.  That's why I tend to be a bit wary of deeply cynical people.  If you genuinely think most people are bad/untrustworthy/dishonest, it makes me wonder what (if anything) it is about you that makes you see people this way.
 
2013-02-26 12:58:51 PM  

dready zim: I completely agree but also, just being drunk does not make it rape. If a drunk person comes up with the idea of having sex and then tomorrow doesn`t remember then he can`t go out and say to everybody "I was raped."


Do us a favor and, when you go out, wear a t-shirt that says "If you get drunk around me I might rape you" so women will know how you stand on the issue before it's too late.

Or you can make it say "If you get drunk around me I might 'take advantage of' you" if that makes you feel better.  Most women will know what you really mean.
 
2013-02-26 01:00:46 PM  

spiderpaz: You probably have. See my story above. That's actually pretty damn common. But men don't report it. It still is technically rape, even though men don't feel as violated after the fact


That meets the "college guidelines" rules of rape.  But if you drunkenly consent to sex in the real world I don't see a conviction happening (rightly so).
 
2013-02-26 01:02:21 PM  

Theaetetus: No, it's not a different story if you were sober or blind drunk. Mugging is still mugging. There is no exception in the law for being drunk, in an alley, at 4AM in a bad part of town with money hanging out of your pockets. It's not a defense to a mugging charge, and is not an element the prosecution needs to prove or disprove. It's entirely irrelevant.


While you are correct that it is still a crime, you are wrong that it is irrelevant. By acting stupidly, the drunk guy with money hang out his pockets has increased his risk. (Note- this does not make mugging him 'okay'.)

In any case, that does nothing to change the fact that a medical exam is necessary.

That kind of depends on what the complaint is. If both people agreed they had sex, and the only issue is consent, then a medical exam may not be necessary at all.


Of course it is. Stories change. If certain acts are alleged later (ie: anal, or rough sex), then a thorough exam would help provide evidence one way or the other.

Do you need a medical exam if you say I stole $50 from you, and I say you gave me $50?

If I claim you snatched it violently out of my hand, and scratched or bruised me in the process, then YES, a medical exam of my hand would certainly be in order.
 
2013-02-26 01:03:47 PM  

Callous: Although I do like those little key-chain pepper spray canisters.


One squirt and you're south of the border!
 
2013-02-26 01:04:33 PM  
For Pino, I'm not saying Audrey Seiler on this one, but I'm also not not sayng Seiler.
 
2013-02-26 01:04:48 PM  

liam76: spiderpaz: You probably have. See my story above. That's actually pretty damn common. But men don't report it. It still is technically rape, even though men don't feel as violated after the fact

That meets the "college guidelines" rules of rape.  But if you drunkenly consent to sex in the real world I don't see a conviction happening (rightly so).


I'd partially agree with you in that it's not convictable ( not a word?) unless I literally had a camera crew following her around the whole night.  However, strictly speaking, a rape still technically happened.
 
2013-02-26 01:06:13 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Of what relevance would such statistics be? Equal protection does not depend on equal frequency of need for it.

Of course it doesn't. It does however influence the conversation around the subject. Men can get breast cancer, but there's a reason breast cancer is generally framed as a women's issue- sheer numbers.

Christ, you're still awake?  I am in awe of your stamina as well as your debate skills and decency, my dear!   Seriously, no snark.

The danger of such statistics is that they tend to shape the debate in ways that marginalize the minority victims.  Then the marginalized push back and we get resistance to the worthiness of the majority's claim to justice.

Yes, I resent the title, "Violence Against Women Act," and the creation of an Office of Violence Against Women.  "Gender neutrality" is just a footnote in the appendix of that law and the debate about it.  You see where that one discriminatory word leads?


I've got horrendous sleep habits when I'm not adhering to someone else's schedule. Although- I  think a nap is just around the corner. And thanks!

And I understand your point, I honestly do- I just also think that men could do a better job cross identifying and understanding that just because women are identified as the majority group affected by a piece of legislation, that legislation does not exclude men. Women cross identify reflexively. When I see someone use the general "he" I don't chime in with "Why are you excluding women, clearly if the 'she' is not specifically mentioned, the sentence was meant to be discriminatory."

Men are bad at thinking that way- of seeing themselves as part of a group identified as feminine. Mostly because they don't have to do it and aren't raised to think that way- our language trends towards defaulting to the masculine and women are implicitly included.

I kind of feel like part of equality is men learning how to do the same. So I don't have a lot of patience for the argument that all things should have gender neutral names, no matter how the statistics on who's affected skew.
 
2013-02-26 01:08:29 PM  

spiderpaz: liam76: spiderpaz: You probably have. See my story above. That's actually pretty damn common. But men don't report it. It still is technically rape, even though men don't feel as violated after the fact

That meets the "college guidelines" rules of rape.  But if you drunkenly consent to sex in the real world I don't see a conviction happening (rightly so).

I'd partially agree with you in that it's not convictable ( not a word?) unless I literally had a camera crew following her around the whole night.  However, strictly speaking, a rape still technically happened.


It sounds to me like you kept saying no, and she went ahead.  Yes that is rape.

If you said yes, but only because you were drunk, I don't consider that rape.
 
2013-02-26 01:08:42 PM  

Genevieve Marie: fredklein: It reminds me of a lot of customer service stories: Customer wants to return a damaged purchase, but gets pissed off when told they are outside of the return period. They had a chance to use the system, but chose to not do so, and now they whine and biatch about how unfair it is.

My mistake. I made the mistake of treating you like a human being capable of empathy for a second there.


I lack empathy because women choose to not take advantage of a system, then, when it's too late, choose to whine and complain??

God, your poor daughters.

Yes, poor, poor them- taught to be strong and actually GO TO THE COPS AND REPORT IT if they get attacked. Poor, poor, dears. I should instead tell them to NOT report crimes, and then spend the rest of their lives regretting it and posting on the Internet. That's soooo much better.
 
2013-02-26 01:11:08 PM  

spiderpaz: liam76: spiderpaz: You probably have. See my story above. That's actually pretty damn common. But men don't report it. It still is technically rape, even though men don't feel as violated after the fact

That meets the "college guidelines" rules of rape.  But if you drunkenly consent to sex in the real world I don't see a conviction happening (rightly so).

I'd partially agree with you in that it's not convictable ( not a word?) unless I literally had a camera crew following her around the whole night.  However, strictly speaking, a rape still technically happened.


Also, If I were going to relate this to the way homicides are classified, I'd consider this more like a third degree than a first degree, because it's more like a negligence to get clear consent and a disregard of my incapacity than a premeditated plan to kidnap me, and tie me down and have me against my will.
 
2013-02-26 01:11:20 PM  

SlothB77: the rapist must be on the basketball team.  or football team or lax team.


UNC sucks!

That having been said, the girl should sue the crap outta the school.
 
2013-02-26 01:12:40 PM  

Fano: Theaetetus: IgG4: She sounds like a trouble maker to me... Sounds like trouble to me.

Who even repeats themselves this way? Someone frothing with rage.

it-it- the f - it -flam - flames. Flames, on the side of my face, breathing-breathl- heaving breaths. Heaving breaths... Heathing...



fc09.deviantart.net
 
2013-02-26 01:12:51 PM  
It's time to remind everyone that this thread is about a complaint against UNC, not about rape.

It's as if we started out discussing American foreign policy but ended up debating when it's OK to shoot a teenager.  But of course, that never happens on Fark. ;-)
 
2013-02-26 01:15:15 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: It's time to remind everyone that this thread is about a complaint against UNC, not about rape.

It's as if we started out discussing American foreign policy but ended up debating when it's OK to shoot a teenager.  But of course, that never happens on Fark. ;-)


I have no idea what you're talking about. We are excellent at maintaining structured conversation and never veering from the assigned topic.

Discipline. Excellence. Fark.
 
2013-02-26 01:15:48 PM  

liam76: spiderpaz: liam76: spiderpaz: You probably have. See my story above. That's actually pretty damn common. But men don't report it. It still is technically rape, even though men don't feel as violated after the fact

That meets the "college guidelines" rules of rape.  But if you drunkenly consent to sex in the real world I don't see a conviction happening (rightly so).

I'd partially agree with you in that it's not convictable ( not a word?) unless I literally had a camera crew following her around the whole night.  However, strictly speaking, a rape still technically happened.

It sounds to me like you kept saying no, and she went ahead.  Yes that is rape.

If you said yes, but only because you were drunk, I don't consider that rape.


I didn't keep saying no.  I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex.  Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie.  However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do.
 
2013-02-26 01:16:36 PM  

Genevieve Marie: heili skrimsli: That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?

No, just observing that the "I'm not like all those other women, I'm a cool woman" style is something I've seen before. I get it. I lived that for awhile actually. I don't look down on it.

I just also think you missed the point I was making. All women everywhere are taught to be aware of their surroundings. To the point where it becomes second nature. And yes, that can translate into slight feelings of discomfort when you have to share an enclosed space with someone whose body language makes you uncomfortable.

That's not screwed up. That's pretty standard for most women. Congratulations if you've managed to escape the social conditioning that makes you very aware of your space at all times, but not all of us have fared that way. It is not at all uncommon for women to make sure that anytime they're walking alone at night they have a set of boxes checked: cell phone out, keys gripped in a way that makes them suitable to use as a weapon if necessary, walking with purpose, checking around them and avoiding any spots where someone could hide.

Even if you think that's ridiculous- it's the stuff that's taught in any decent self-defense class. So what am I supposed to infer from your comments? Women should train in self-defense, but then feel silly about integrating those practices into their daily lives?


No, what I'm saying is that your level of paranoia and fear is unlike most women and that you're too damn myopic to see it. Your example of someone whose 'body language' made you feel uncomfortable was that they were male and in an elevator. If that's all it takes to make you feel uncomfortable, you're not describing how the majority of sane women act. It's akin to a white person describing 'body language that makes them feel uncomfortable' as 'alone in an elevator with a black person I don't know.'

That is unreasonably paranoid, and frankly your scenario is every bit as sexist as finding a black person in an elevator scary is racist.

Also, what the hell self-defense class did you go to that told you to walk down the street checking for people behind you by holding up your makeup mirror as you walk?

You're still trying to paint rather extreme fearful behavior as normal, and quite frankly you're no less full of shiat because you backpedaled and called 'being male and in an elevator' a body language that makes you uncomfortable.
 
2013-02-26 01:18:23 PM  

doglover: The only better thing would be people who publicly accuse one person of a crime being charged with that crime themselves if it turns out their accusation was known to be false to them.


I think I made that suggestion in another thread.  It must therefore be an AWESOME IDEA!!! And we should get to work on it.
 
2013-02-26 01:20:41 PM  
North Carolina is giant theme park for ignorance.
 
2013-02-26 01:21:28 PM  

Genevieve Marie: kendelrio: No, the point of that question is a friend of mine who I've lost touch woth and was a rape victum is named Genevieve an based on the vehemence with which this person comes into these threads with, I thought it may be her.

/not a rapist

No, I've never lived in Hawaii, and based on your opinions, I doubt we'd have been friends.

I'm passionate about these issues because I'm a woman, a feminist and oh yea: decent human beings get angry when they see a rape victim treated badly.


I especially enjoy watching you defend marital infidelity.  Always a "good laugh".
 
2013-02-26 01:23:28 PM  

fredklein: Theaetetus: No, it's not a different story if you were sober or blind drunk. Mugging is still mugging. There is no exception in the law for being drunk, in an alley, at 4AM in a bad part of town with money hanging out of your pockets. It's not a defense to a mugging charge, and is not an element the prosecution needs to prove or disprove. It's entirely irrelevant.

While you are correct that it is still a crime, you are wrong that it is irrelevant. By acting stupidly, the drunk guy with money hang out his pockets has increased his risk. (Note- this does not make mugging him 'okay'.)


It is irrelevant to the criminal charge, and irrelevant to the police investigating the crime. This may be a shock to you, but they're not the Risk Police.

In any case, that does nothing to change the fact that a medical exam is necessary.

That kind of depends on what the complaint is. If both people agreed they had sex, and the only issue is consent, then a medical exam may not be necessary at all.

Of course it is. Stories change. If certain acts are alleged later (ie: anal, or rough sex), then a thorough exam would help provide evidence one way or the other.


And then that can be investigated  when or if the story changes. It's wrong to  presume that the woman is either lying now or  will lie such that we need physical evidence against her word. If she later changes her story, then her credibility is diminished, and we can take that into account  then

Do you need a medical exam if you say I stole $50 from you, and I say you gave me $50?

If I claim you snatched it violently out of my hand, and scratched or bruised me in the process, then YES, a medical exam of my hand would certainly be in order.


No, no, you claim I pointed a gun or knife at you and demanded the $50. There was no violence involved, merely a threat of it. I, on the other hand, claim that you offered me $50 out of guilt for your words here. No medical exam is necessary, and we don't even disagree on the physical exchange.

Consider, too, that in many states, the victim has to pay for the medical exam (see, e.g. Alaska). Telling the victim that (i) a medical exam is required, even if all parties agree they had non-violent vaginal intercourse, (ii) she's paying for it and can maybe hopefully possibly get reimbursed later, and (iii) it's $10k, is a good way to convince women not to press charges.
 
2013-02-26 01:26:05 PM  

spiderpaz: I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex. Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie. However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do


Not rape then.
 
2013-02-26 01:26:47 PM  

dready zim: You may have missed it but in my example it is a MAN who cannot remember. Can HE also claim rape? You would seem to say `yes` unless you have a sexist vi ...


Of course men can and are raped.  By other men AND by women.  Nobody said otherwise, so stop beating that strawman.
 
2013-02-26 01:27:54 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: It's time to remind everyone that this thread is about a complaint against UNC, not about rape.


Yeah, good luck w/ that.
 
2013-02-26 01:27:55 PM  

liam76: spiderpaz: I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex. Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie. However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do

Not rape then.


But he was drunk, therefore utterly incapable of consenting.
 
2013-02-26 01:31:18 PM  

heili skrimsli: liam76: spiderpaz: I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex. Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie. However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do

Not rape then.

But he was drunk, therefore utterly incapable of consenting.


Imagine the implications if this were the case.

Late night pizza places, closed.

Strip clubs, out of business.

Bars, not selling anything after 10PM.
 
2013-02-26 01:32:05 PM  

heili skrimsli: But he was drunk, therefore utterly incapable of consenting.


What if you're both drunk?  Did I just divide by zero?
 
2013-02-26 01:32:27 PM  

Theaetetus: Callous: Theaetetus: Callous: Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.

Knowing that the majority of rapes are date or acquaintance rapes, rather than strangers in dark parking lots, what "very obvious" suggestions would you give, since "don't park there" isn't going help anyone with their roommate or that guy from down the hall?

Don't let anything you eat or drink out of your sight, etc.

What if there are no drugs involved, and we're just talking about drinking? I've gotten blitzed with my buddies... Is your suggestion that women shouldn't get to participate in that type of partying?

There isn't much that can be done about a guy that tries to physically overpower a woman, either she can fight him off or she can't.   Although I do like those little key-chain pepper spray canisters.  I'm no authority on the subject but I'm sure there are some simple precautions that can be taken lessen the risk of date/acquaintance rape without adopting a paranoid lifestyle.

Not really, particularly because date/acquaintance rape tends to be the "get her passed out drunk" rather than the "hold her down". Pepper spray isn't going to do much, unless you're willing to pepper spray someone every time your BAC gets above a .08, just in case.


She should be able to get blitzed with her buddies.  And I should be able to make a left turn on a green arrow without having to make sure the on coming traffic doesn't blow the red light.

IIWII
 
2013-02-26 01:32:44 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: It's time to remind everyone that this thread is about a complaint against UNC, not about rape.

It's as if we started out discussing American foreign policy but ended up debating when it's OK to shoot a teenager.  But of course, that never happens on Fark. ;-)


I concur. Rape/sexual assault is the setting, not the plot in this particular case.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013/02/sexual-assault-victim-ch ar ged

This is pretty interesting - UNC spokesperson is claiming that they have nothing to do with and no sway over the Honor Court charges against Gambill. That it's entirely student led.

That's INSANE. Expulsions are entirely under the jurisdiction of undergrads? WTF are they thinking?

4closurefraud.org
 
2013-02-26 01:33:51 PM  

Callous: And I should be able to make a left turn on a green arrow without having to make sure the on coming traffic doesn't blow the red light.


So what you're saying is that it's a complete waste of time for me to be cautious of drivers that aren't following the rules or paying attention to the road?
 
2013-02-26 01:34:07 PM  

liam76: spiderpaz: I kept avoiding her so that I didn't have to be a dick about it until I was drunk enough that I actually let a stalker into my house and let her give me oral sex. Technically I was shiat faced and I said "sure why not" to a blowie. However, if she cared about my actual wishes in a sober mind, she clearly had enough information to know that that's probably not something I would have wanted to do

Not rape then.


So, in your opinion, it is okay to be rejected by a girl at the beginning of the night, then follow her while she's drinking, until she's drunk enough to the point that eventually - you can follow her home and weasel your way into her house and continue to come on to her in her drunken stupor, until she just gives in and lets you have your way?  Isn't that kind of a dishonest way of circumventing her will to intentionally find her in a state where she's not capable of saying what she really wants?
 
2013-02-26 01:39:15 PM  

Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Of what relevance would such statistics be? Equal protection does not depend on equal frequency of need for it.

Of course it doesn't. It does however influence the conversation around the subject. Men can get breast cancer, but there's a reason breast cancer is generally framed as a women's issue- sheer numbers.

Christ, you're still awake?  I am in awe of your stamina as well as your debate skills and decency, my dear!   Seriously, no snark.

The danger of such statistics is that they tend to shape the debate in ways that marginalize the minority victims.  Then the marginalized push back and we get resistance to the worthiness of the majority's claim to justice.

Yes, I resent the title, "Violence Against Women Act," and the creation of an Office of Violence Against Women.  "Gender neutrality" is just a footnote in the appendix of that law and the debate about it.  You see where that one discriminatory word leads?

I've got horrendous sleep habits when I'm not adhering to someone else's schedule. Although- I  think a nap is just around the corner. And thanks!

And I understand your point, I honestly do- I just also think that men could do a better job cross identifying and understanding that just because women are identified as the majority group affected by a piece of legislation, that legislation does not exclude men. Women cross identify reflexively. When I see someone use the general "he" I don't chime in with "Why are you excluding women, clearly if the 'she' is not specifically mentioned, the sentence was meant to be discriminatory."

Men are bad at thinking that way- of seeing themselves as part of a group identified as feminine. Mostly because they don't have to do it and aren't raised to think that way- our language trends towards defaulting to the masculine and women are implicitly included.

I kind of feel like part of equality is men learning how to do the same. So I don't have a lot of patience for the ...


So patriarchal values should be replaced with matriarchal values.  Worth a try, I guess, if only for the variety.  But I don't expect it to lead to equality or overall improvement for both sexes.  Humans are competitive, each in their own ways.  They do not seek equality and are not satisfied with it; they seek advantage.  That will not change.
 
2013-02-26 01:42:46 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Of what relevance would such statistics be? Equal protection does not depend on equal frequency of need for it.

Of course it doesn't. It does however influence the conversation around the subject. Men can get breast cancer, but there's a reason breast cancer is generally framed as a women's issue- sheer numbers.

Christ, you're still awake?  I am in awe of your stamina as well as your debate skills and decency, my dear!   Seriously, no snark.

The danger of such statistics is that they tend to shape the debate in ways that marginalize the minority victims.  Then the marginalized push back and we get resistance to the worthiness of the majority's claim to justice.

Yes, I resent the title, "Violence Against Women Act," and the creation of an Office of Violence Against Women.  "Gender neutrality" is just a footnote in the appendix of that law and the debate about it.  You see where that one discriminatory word leads?

I've got horrendous sleep habits when I'm not adhering to someone else's schedule. Although- I  think a nap is just around the corner. And thanks!

And I understand your point, I honestly do- I just also think that men could do a better job cross identifying and understanding that just because women are identified as the majority group affected by a piece of legislation, that legislation does not exclude men. Women cross identify reflexively. When I see someone use the general "he" I don't chime in with "Why are you excluding women, clearly if the 'she' is not specifically mentioned, the sentence was meant to be discriminatory."

Men are bad at thinking that way- of seeing themselves as part of a group identified as feminine. Mostly because they don't have to do it and aren't raised to think that way- our language trends towards defaulting to the masculine and women are implicitly included.

I kind of feel like part of equality is men learning how to do the same. So I don't have a lot of ...


Honestly I don't think what I stated qualifies as attempting to replace a patriarchy with a matriarchy. (If that could even be done. It's pretty difficult to totally reverse thousands of years of societal attitudes towards gender and totally flip them.)

More- I don't believe English will ever be a gender neutral language, and in the absence of that, balance in gender representation in language and culture is an acceptable alternative.
 
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