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(Huffington Post)   Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 1269
    More: Sick, Chapel Hill, honor code, sex crimes, Office of Civil Rights, Amherst College, art fair, U.S. Department of Education, graduate students  
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28390 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 11:44:00 AM

liam76: I am not arguing semantics. Your intitial statements were at best misleading and at worst outright lies.


I am willing to concede that I employed a bit of hyperbole in trying to get you guys to understand why reporting rape is a difficult thing to do. I don't think the way I did it was particularly misleading though.

We're still arguing pretty trivial things. The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."

That really shouldn't be tough to understand.
 
2013-02-26 11:44:31 AM
*wakes up*

i212.photobucket.com

i212.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-26 11:45:12 AM

liam76: 5monkeys: serial_crusher: 5monkeys: To all the "she should have went to the police otherwise it isn't true" people. I was raped. I didn't go to the police. Why? Because I was 17 and afraid. He was a football player. He was a star in our school and I was a nobody. I knew no one would believe me, or even worse they would blame me. I just wanted to move past it. It took me ten years. Are you saying I am a liar? That it never happened?

Sorry to hear that.  But, did you go to the school board to complain about it, or did you just keep quiet all together.  Because all the things you were afraid of: nobody believing you, siding with him...  All those things would have been just as likely to happen if you went to the school's honor court or the media instead of the police.

Your story is an unfortunately common one, but it doesn't seem consistent with this girl's actions.  It's not that she didn't report the rape to the police.  It's that she reported it to everybody except the police.

I told my best friend and she told people who told people. Within a week I was being harassed in the hall, threatened by other girls in the locker room and bathroom. I was basically told if I snitched I would get stabbed. So I went from a bubbly happy teeneager to a girl who hid in a hoodie everyday hoping to be invisible. My friends all turned on me because he was in our group. I was the liar and he was the victim. That was the worst part. The rape was bad, but what happened later was devastating. I got to the point where I didn't want to live anymore. My mom called crisis on me and I finally told the adults what happened. They wanted me to go to the police, but I refused. There was no point. I couldn't have handled the investigation. So, I got therapy. And new friends. I graduated and married. And one day I realized it was a week after my rape date and I hadn't noticed. I knew I was finally better.

I should have went to the police. Another girl was raped by the same guy a few months after me. She ...

So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?


Pretty much. In my high school those who played sports, especially football, were held above others. They were immune to many rules. Fights were ended with the football guys getting off Scott free and the other guy expelled no matter who started it. Drugs were magically unfound if they were in a football players locker. Blaming victims who were harrassed and even one girl who was stalked by football players all by the administration and students. So yea. Thats how it worked.
 
2013-02-26 11:45:36 AM

Genevieve Marie: Weaver95: Tat'dGreaser: Weaver95: all I gotta say is that the same names keep cropping up in these discussions...the same people supporting some pretty horrific things, all holding (generally) the same points of view on life, politics and the law.

Oh really? That's pretty f*cked up that they are this consistently f*cked in the head that people would recognize their logins.

I just can't wrap my head around supporting anything that blames a rape victim.

they are remarkably consistent in their statements and beliefs.  it's always the victim's fault, rape is something they don't take seriously.  And as I said waaaaaaaaay up thread, in some cases these are the same people who consider rape to be a 'bonus round' punishment for people sent to jail for pot smoking or protesting wall street.

Ugh, that one kills me. What's fun is people who cling to due process arguments even when they're talking about privileges instead of rights- and who then don't see any problem with someone losing even their basic right to bodily integrity if they were convicted of anything, even minor offenses- as long as that person is someone they don't like.


Nobody ever said that.

You are just saying that men should be relocated and punished because a chick says so. You don't want people to have rights. That is sick.

Just put all men  in a cattle car and off the shower?

The only horrific stuff here is you and your crew wanting to eliminate all rights for men. That guy paid to go to college, and forcing him to move and having him branded a rapist is just asking for a lawsuit. The girl sounds like a complete crazy woman with no proof at all. Get over it.
 
2013-02-26 11:47:30 AM

Theaetetus: Only because you changed the part where it says "you know you didn't say yes". The story is quite clear.


Point taken.  If you actually somehow knew that you didn't say yes, it would definitely count as rape.
But, I have a hard time believing you were drunk/drugged enough to affect your ability to consent without also affecting your memory.
 
2013-02-26 11:47:34 AM
Genevieve Marie:And me trying to get it through your head that and the heads of a few others that reporting requires a heroic effort and people should not be treated as liars or weaklings if they are too sad, scared, hurt or overwhelmed to go to that effort is me being a decent human.


And if you've already heroically reported to all three billion people on the internet, why wouldn't you report to the most logical people, the local police?  They're the ones who can actually do something about your problem.
 
2013-02-26 11:48:17 AM

Genevieve Marie: liam76: I am not arguing semantics. Your intitial statements were at best misleading and at worst outright lies.

I am willing to concede that I employed a bit of hyperbole in trying to get you guys to understand why reporting rape is a difficult thing to do. I don't think the way I did it was particularly misleading though.


Great that you will concede what is very apparent.

But if it was just hyperbole, why did it take some 3 posts for you to back off on the claim?

That kind of dishonesty hinders any discussion.


Genevieve Marie: We're still arguing pretty trivial things. The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."

That really shouldn't be tough to understand


That isn't difficult to understand, but it is not at all what you first said.
 
2013-02-26 11:48:47 AM

Theaetetus: Fine, then answer it yes or no: do you believe that the definition of rape should include even those situations where it's "difficult" to prove or where evidence about consent is solely complainant testimony vs. accused testimony?


Although my personal feelings are irrelevant, I think it should include any situation where consent was denied, and, yes, that includes things that are difficult to prove. I can write it in crayon and send it to you in the mail if you continue to have trouble reading the screen.
 
2013-02-26 11:49:39 AM

fredklein: Theaetetus: So you agree, then, that if someone is accused of rape, there should be an arrest, charges, and a trial and we'll see whom the jury believes more?

YES.


Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.
 
2013-02-26 11:49:41 AM

heili skrimsli: That's all she ever does. Look at how she assumed I was a man with privilege because I said staring over your shoulder in a compact mirror to see if anyone's watching you is farking paranoid.


Sigh. I shouldn't have made that assumption. I should have accounted for the cookies from the dudebros phenomenon.
 
2013-02-26 11:50:13 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: 5monkeys: I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I am so proud of you for doing what I was afraid to do and getting his sick ass tossed in jail. Those people who didn't believe it even after he was convicted are the same ones who cry foul if you don't go to the cops. They don't want to believe they couldn't spot the monster therefore he couldn't be one. Bunch of aholes.

And I'm sorry that you had to go through it, too. Don't consider yourself weak for not reporting it to the police; consider yourself strong for surviving despite everything. Again, Internet hugs. :)

Also, for what it's worth, don't put too much stock in the pro-rape contingent. Most of them don't actually believe their own bullshiat, they're just friendless wastes of space who get either a boner or a paycheque from pissing people off.


I don't know if they are pro-rape. I think (God please let me be right) that they truly can not understand what really happens. They would rather believe in lying instead of what being a victim of this kind of crime would go through, and people being so awful as to do that to someone.
 
2013-02-26 11:50:41 AM

Ebbelwoi: From the comments section of the Daily Tarheel.  Obviously I have no way of knowing if this is even remotely legit.  Readers can make their own judgements:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013/02/sexual-assault-victim-ch ar ged


If you are a new supporter of Landen Gambill, I ask that you please take Landen Gambill's comments and new accusations with an intense dose of skepticism, if not full disbelief:
I was part of the court when her case was heard, though I post anonymously to preserve my identity. I merely represent a whistleblower, of sorts.
I saw almost no evidence to substantiate her claims of abuse and rape. She was given full and proper counsel and assistance during her case (which had the involvement of the Undergraduate Student Attorney General, herself), and she was allowed with no prohibition to enter evidence of all types to complete her accusation. We heard testimony from reliable witnesses, and from the accuser and accused themselves. What we didn't hear was a pattern of abuse that she is now claiming to have been involved in. We did not see large bruises, signs of trauma, or negligence from her body, and we did not see evidence of any kind likewise from her submitted. If she was raped, she did not provide ANY forensic or even circumstantial evidence to support her claims. What we did see was admission of clinical depression and paranoia, mental instability, and suicidal tendencies. We saw dialogue and e-mails, messages on facebook from her ex-boyfriend that support a claim of retaliation from her. She may now claim that that occurred AFTER her supposed rape, but there is evidence to the contrary. To counter possible claims of sexism: gender/sex/sexual orientation of court members is always random and in her case she was afforded female representation. The interim court was also headed by a faculty member.
I have been a part of and heard multiple sexual assault cases as a court member, and hers was anything but adequate to sufficiently convince ...


Interesting.
 
2013-02-26 11:51:06 AM

serial_crusher: Theaetetus: Only because you changed the part where it says "you know you didn't say yes". The story is quite clear.

Point taken.  If you actually somehow knew that you didn't say yes, it would definitely count as rape.
But, I have a hard time believing you were drunk/drugged enough to affect your ability to consent without also affecting your memory.


Doesn't change the other part... lack of knowledge of incapacity is an affirmative defense.
 
2013-02-26 11:52:43 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Theaetetus: Fine, then answer it yes or no: do you believe that the definition of rape should include even those situations where it's "difficult" to prove or where evidence about consent is solely complainant testimony vs. accused testimony?

Although my personal feelings are irrelevant, I think it should include any situation where consent was denied, and, yes, that includes things that are difficult to prove. I can write it in crayon and send it to you in the mail if you continue to have trouble reading the screen.


Then why did you criticize the definition of rape as having "grown" if you believe it's appropriate and accurate?
 
2013-02-26 11:53:29 AM

5monkeys: Pretty much. In my high school those who played sports, especially football, were held above others. They were immune to many rules. Fights were ended with the football guys getting off Scott free and the other guy expelled no matter who started it. Drugs were magically unfound if they were in a football players locker. Blaming victims who were harrassed and even one girl who was stalked by football players all by the administration and students. So yea. Thats how it worked


I saw shiat like that in college, but not in highschool.

i am glad football in Ct was no big deal.
 
2013-02-26 11:53:50 AM

fredklein: Theaetetus: So you agree, then, that if someone is accused of rape, there should be an arrest, charges, and a trial and we'll see whom the jury believes more?

YES.


Shouldn't the police do some investigation before just blindly arresting and trying the accused?  You know, like they do with other crimes?
 
2013-02-26 11:54:07 AM

Theaetetus: Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.



Because their best case estimate of the potential evidence is a stack of facebook spats with her boyfriend that didn't even convince the student court?
 
2013-02-26 11:55:41 AM

Theaetetus: stiletto_the_wise: I can write it in crayon and send it to you in the mail if you continue to have trouble reading the screen.

Then why did you criticize the definition of rape as having "grown" if you believe it's appropriate and accurate?


Looks like I need to get my crayon after all...
 
2013-02-26 11:56:21 AM

Genevieve Marie: liam76: So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?

Yea, no. This isn't going tot happen. This thread is not going to turn into one where you question the details of someone who has chosen to share their personal story and indicate that you think they're being less than truthful. No. Not ok. Not even a little bit ok.

Most high school groups contain a range of people. There are leaders and followers. Being friends with a popular person does not mean you wield the same kind of power in school. But that's all beside the point, and the point is that questioning someone's personal story about their rape experience in a situation where they're sharing it anonymously and not on a witness stand is not ok.


But he proves the point we have been trying to make. I am a liar. He says so. One small detail doesn't fit his way and it is all wrong. People wonder why victims don't come forward. whyt is why.
 
2013-02-26 11:56:25 AM

5monkeys: Fluorescent Testicle: 5monkeys: I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I am so proud of you for doing what I was afraid to do and getting his sick ass tossed in jail. Those people who didn't believe it even after he was convicted are the same ones who cry foul if you don't go to the cops. They don't want to believe they couldn't spot the monster therefore he couldn't be one. Bunch of aholes.

And I'm sorry that you had to go through it, too. Don't consider yourself weak for not reporting it to the police; consider yourself strong for surviving despite everything. Again, Internet hugs. :)

Also, for what it's worth, don't put too much stock in the pro-rape contingent. Most of them don't actually believe their own bullshiat, they're just friendless wastes of space who get either a boner or a paycheque from pissing people off.

I don't know if they are pro-rape. I think (God please let me be right) that they truly can not understand what really happens. They would rather believe in lying instead of what being a victim of this kind of crime would go through, and people being so awful as to do that to someone.


I think it becomes some sort of man vs woman argument in their mind for some reason, and then they get all defensive.  Which is a pretty backwards way of approaching any situation.
 
2013-02-26 11:57:05 AM

Genevieve Marie: heili skrimsli: That's all she ever does. Look at how she assumed I was a man with privilege because I said staring over your shoulder in a compact mirror to see if anyone's watching you is farking paranoid.

Sigh. I shouldn't have made that assumption. I should have accounted for the cookies from the dudebros phenomenon.


So you're claiming I am defective as a female because I am not living my life in constant fear of being attacked to the point where I'm afraid to be on an elevator with a guy I don't know, and I don't look over my shoulder with a makeup mirror while walking down the street?

I don't worry about these things. I don't wake up every morning and wonder if this is the day I get raped. I don't look at every man and think he might be the one who does it. I don't get nervous if I'm on the elevator alone and a man gets on. Being mugged registers far higher on my radar than OMG RAPE EVERYWHERE.

That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?

One of us is highly farked up, Gen, and it isn't me.
 
2013-02-26 12:00:43 PM

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but exactly how far are women expected to go to mitigate risk? And do you see why it's such an impossible standard to demand of women- the idea that all or most rapes can be prevented if only we're careful enough? And how irksome it is to hear some dude spout off something about risk management like he's just discovered the theory of relativity when what he's talking about is second nature to most women?

And also- do you not get how not ok it is to bring up in reference to a rape that's already happened. The implication there is always "Shame. If only she'd done something to prevent it from happening to her." That is ALWAYS shifting the burden back onto the woman in question- implying that in some small way, she's at least partially responsible for the choice someone else made to violate her body.

It's such an unkind thing to do.


I don't know if you ride motorcycles or not, but when I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course one thing they harped on is that every accident has a chain of events that leads up to it.  Break one link in the chain and the accident doesn't occur.  We were given the circumstances of several accidents and discussed what occurred and what could have been done differently to prevent it.  It wasn't about laying blame.  It was about learning from events and what can be done to prevent them.  It was about looking to the future.  It was about preventing someone else from having the same tragedy occur to them.  For instance, I had an instance where I was pulling up to an intersection where I had a green arrow to make a left turn.  That means I had the right of way and on coming traffic had a red light.  However I noticed that the driver of an on coming car didn't appear to be paying attention.  I think she was looking at her cell phone.  I stopped at the intersection and waited and sure enough she drove right through the red light.  Would it have been my fault if I had not looked at her and noticed she was distracted and made the turn and she hit me?  Hell no, not at all.  But because I learned that motorcycles getting hit while making left turns is one of the most common motorcycle involved accidents I was aware and didn't suffer the same tragedy many have before me.

I have the utmost sympathy for rape victims.  Two of my nieces were recently raped, they are 8 and 12 years old.  It is life changing for them and everyone around them.  Discussing the chain of events leading up to it and looking for ways to break that chain and spreading the knowledge gained is how we learn prevention.  Yes, some people will blame the victims.  They are douchebags that need to FO and die.  But don't think that everyone that discusses the the chain of events and points out ways to break it is laying any blame at the feet of the victim.  Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.  Like with the motorcyclescenario and the oncoming traffic.  Looking at the oncoming traffic to see if they are paying attention and are stopping for the red light seems like a very obvious thing to do.  However statistics indicate that many don't and get hit.
 
2013-02-26 12:01:13 PM

Dissociater: 5monkeys: Fluorescent Testicle: 5monkeys: I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I am so proud of you for doing what I was afraid to do and getting his sick ass tossed in jail. Those people who didn't believe it even after he was convicted are the same ones who cry foul if you don't go to the cops. They don't want to believe they couldn't spot the monster therefore he couldn't be one. Bunch of aholes.

And I'm sorry that you had to go through it, too. Don't consider yourself weak for not reporting it to the police; consider yourself strong for surviving despite everything. Again, Internet hugs. :)

Also, for what it's worth, don't put too much stock in the pro-rape contingent. Most of them don't actually believe their own bullshiat, they're just friendless wastes of space who get either a boner or a paycheque from pissing people off.

I don't know if they are pro-rape. I think (God please let me be right) that they truly can not understand what really happens. They would rather believe in lying instead of what being a victim of this kind of crime would go through, and people being so awful as to do that to someone.

I think it becomes some sort of man vs woman argument in their mind for some reason, and then they get all defensive.  Which is a pretty backwards way of approaching any situation.


That's what I think Thunderpipes is trying to encourage with his "all women want all men to be locked up and castrated" concept that he keeps pushing. As long as it's us vs. them, we'll never notice that it's just one small group that's responsible for all of this.
 
2013-02-26 12:03:02 PM

Callous: Some of the suggestions may appear to be very obvious(don't park in dark parking lots, etc).  But there may be women out there that haven't heard that advice and just wouldn't have thought about it on their own.


Knowing that the majority of rapes are date or acquaintance rapes, rather than strangers in dark parking lots, what "very obvious" suggestions would you give, since "don't park there" isn't going help anyone with their roommate or that guy from down the hall?
 
2013-02-26 12:04:37 PM

Ebbelwoi: Theaetetus: Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.

Because their best case estimate of the potential evidence is a stack of facebook spats with her boyfriend that didn't even convince the student court?


Consider that that story comes from someone who has just violated a duty of confidentiality and could be in deep trouble, I'd take it with a grain of salt.
 
2013-02-26 12:05:48 PM

heili skrimsli: That's what you're going with? That not doing those things means that I'm some kind of traitor to female kind?


No, just observing that the "I'm not like all those other women, I'm a cool woman" style is something I've seen before. I get it. I lived that for awhile actually. I don't look down on it.

I just also think you missed the point I was making. All women everywhere are taught to be aware of their surroundings. To the point where it becomes second nature. And yes, that can translate into slight feelings of discomfort when you have to share an enclosed space with someone whose body language makes you uncomfortable.

That's not screwed up. That's pretty standard for most women. Congratulations if you've managed to escape the social conditioning that makes you very aware of your space at all times, but not all of us have fared that way. It is not at all uncommon for women to make sure that anytime they're walking alone at night they have a set of boxes checked: cell phone out, keys gripped in a way that makes them suitable to use as a weapon if necessary, walking with purpose, checking around them and avoiding any spots where someone could hide.

Even if you think that's ridiculous- it's the stuff that's taught in any decent self-defense class. So what am I supposed to infer from your comments? Women should train in self-defense, but then feel silly about integrating those practices into their daily lives?
 
Ehh
2013-02-26 12:08:21 PM

James F. Campbell: Gambill hadn't told her parents the "horrific and disturbing" truth, but she claims her student Honor Court representative did so without permission. While Gambill testified at her trial, she says her student rep gave her parents a confidential document she had written, which was intended to be used only as evidence in the Honor Court. "When I found out he had given it to them, I asked him why," Gambill said, recounting her outrage. She said that the student rep told her that he "thought they should know."

Whoa, that's a violation of federal privacy laws, isn't it?


Sounds like. Maybe a jury would like to pay for her college education, and then some. If I were a UNC cya tool administrator, I'd be worried.

And as someone who knows a survivor who was raped on her college campus, I'd second the Boobies. If it happens to you, call the real cops and get a real lawyer. All those overpaid deans are only concerned with preserving the school's reputation. If you are a survivor, you are a threat to them, and they will treat you as such.
 
2013-02-26 12:10:15 PM

5monkeys: Genevieve Marie: liam76: So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?

Yea, no. This isn't going tot happen. This thread is not going to turn into one where you question the details of someone who has chosen to share their personal story and indicate that you think they're being less than truthful. No. Not ok. Not even a little bit ok.

Most high school groups contain a range of people. There are leaders and followers. Being friends with a popular person does not mean you wield the same kind of power in school. But that's all beside the point, and the point is that questioning someone's personal story about their rape experience in a situation where they're sharing it anonymously and not on a witness stand is not ok.

But he proves the point we have been trying to make. I am a liar. He says so. One small detail doesn't fit his way and it is all wrong. People wonder why victims don't come forward. whyt is why.


Where did I say you were a liar?

Where did I say it is all wrong?

All it proves is that you hear what you want to hear, and aren't capable of having an adult conversation.
 
2013-02-26 12:11:55 PM

Genevieve Marie: The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."


And what, exactly, is your solution?

The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.
 
2013-02-26 12:12:27 PM

Dissociater: 5monkeys: Fluorescent Testicle: 5monkeys: I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I am so proud of you for doing what I was afraid to do and getting his sick ass tossed in jail. Those people who didn't believe it even after he was convicted are the same ones who cry foul if you don't go to the cops. They don't want to believe they couldn't spot the monster therefore he couldn't be one. Bunch of aholes.

And I'm sorry that you had to go through it, too. Don't consider yourself weak for not reporting it to the police; consider yourself strong for surviving despite everything. Again, Internet hugs. :)

Also, for what it's worth, don't put too much stock in the pro-rape contingent. Most of them don't actually believe their own bullshiat, they're just friendless wastes of space who get either a boner or a paycheque from pissing people off.

I don't know if they are pro-rape. I think (God please let me be right) that they truly can not understand what really happens. They would rather believe in lying instead of what being a victim of this kind of crime would go through, and people being so awful as to do that to someone.

I think it becomes some sort of man vs woman argument in their mind for some reason, and then they get all defensive.  Which is a pretty backwards way of approaching any situation.


That could be it. I understand that no one wants to see a person's life ruined by a false accusation. But to believe that rape kits are simple inconveniences and it's just as easy as going to police that baffles me. To say rape is just a guy sticking his Weenies in your no no place is infuriating. Minamizing what a victim goes through is a really crappy way to defend the stance that you only want guilty men punished. I am a mother of two boys. I hope they are never falsely accused of any crime, especially rape. But I would never go after victims to try to make that happen.
 
2013-02-26 12:13:43 PM

fredklein: The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.


OR the cops can use the exact same guidelines and lines of questioning they do when investigating theft or fraud, and ask about whether there was consent, rather than ask what she was wearing or how much she had to drink or whether she knew how much it would harm the reputation of this nice boy.
 
2013-02-26 12:14:55 PM

fredklein: Genevieve Marie: The context of that whole discussion was "Reporting a rape is really scary and difficult. Judging someone for choosing not to go through it is pretty callous."

And what, exactly, is your solution?

The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.


Or we can understand that not all rapists are going to be convicted and face jail time and some of them are going to walk free because their victims would prefer to protect their own mental health and privacy and that while this is terribly unjust, it's how the real world works.

We can also acknowledge that just because a crime is not reported does not mean it never existed. It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose  to deal with what happened to them.
 
2013-02-26 12:16:36 PM

serial_crusher: If you tell a guy no, then get voluntarily drunk and change your mind, it's not rape; it's you changing your mind.


Are you farking serious?  If she said no sober than it's no regardless of what she said drunk.  She's farkin drunk, hence not in a condition to make sound decisions like consent.  If she said no when she was sober and then said yes while drunk, what exactly do you think is going to happen when she sobers up?  Get your head out of your arse and think about what you are saying.
 
2013-02-26 12:16:41 PM
I don't know, nor do I really care what the fark the rest of this thread is about.

But, "UNC no longer uses the Honor Court to handle sexual assault cases"  coupled with her right to file a complaint with the US Department of Education Office of Civil Rights pretty much should be the end of it.  But instead, they charged her with a violation of the school's kangaroo student run court system's honor code.

I'm guessing that UNC's lawyers are either having a heart attack over the stupidity of the school and the Honor Court.

In the future, schools need to stay out of adjudicating legal rights, especially criminal cases.
 
2013-02-26 12:17:00 PM

Theaetetus: fredklein: Theaetetus: So you agree, then, that if someone is accused of rape, there should be an arrest, charges, and a trial and we'll see whom the jury believes more?

YES.

Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.


Because the victim hasn't gone to the police. A simple public statement is not enough for the cops to act on, else I could say "Theaetetus stole my car", and they'd SWAT you.

Now, if there was a video of her struggling and screaming, the police would have enough evidence to charge the guy, even without her testimony. (Which is why homicide isn't quiet- they have evidence- a body!)
 
2013-02-26 12:17:21 PM

Genevieve Marie: It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose to deal with what happened to them


Then maybe people shouldn't treat anyone discussing their story as somebody who is saying they are lying about the rape.
 
2013-02-26 12:20:55 PM

fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death?


That's pretty disgusting dude.  You can't possibly be serious.
 
2013-02-26 12:21:13 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: fredklein: Theaetetus: So you agree, then, that if someone is accused of rape, there should be an arrest, charges, and a trial and we'll see whom the jury believes more?

YES.

Then why aren't you demanding that this guy be arrested, rather than criticizing the victim for not going to police? You do know that the police don't necessarily need the cooperation of the victim, right? Otherwise, homicide would be a very quiet desk.

Because the victim hasn't gone to the police. A simple public statement is not enough for the cops to act on, else I could say "Theaetetus stole my car", and they'd SWAT you.


First thing they'd do is see your car and my lack of car. But yes, the victim doesn't have to first go to the police - see, e.g. domestic violence, or where a cop sees a guy running down the street clutching a purse.

Now, if there was a video of her struggling and screaming, the police would have enough evidence to charge the guy, even without her testimony. (Which is why homicide isn't quiet- they have evidence- a body!)

There's evidence that was presented to the honor court... it's a bit inane for the police to say "unless it's hand delivered to our desk, we don't believe it exists."
 
2013-02-26 12:21:25 PM

liam76: Genevieve Marie: It doesn't mean that should the victim get to a place where they are comfortable sharing their story with people in a way they find healing that they should be treated as liars because of how they chose to deal with what happened to them

Then maybe people shouldn't treat anyone discussing their story as somebody who is saying they are lying about the rape.


Or you know, people should understand that questioning the details of someone's very personal account of their rape is impolite and learn how to ask questions in a more sensitive way.

Polite: God, that's terrible and I'm sorry you went through that. Out of curiosity, why did you feel so insignificant when you were in high school in comparison to your rapist?

Impolite: Oh so you weren't popular but you were? Which was it?
 
2013-02-26 12:24:36 PM

Ebbelwoi: Genevieve Marie:And me trying to get it through your head that and the heads of a few others that reporting requires a heroic effort and people should not be treated as liars or weaklings if they are too sad, scared, hurt or overwhelmed to go to that effort is me being a decent human.


And if you've already heroically reported to all three billion people on the internet, why wouldn't you report to the most logical people, the local police?  They're the ones who can actually do something about your problem.


Because the first thing they are going to want to do is take her pants off and and touch her in places that she is already a little sensitive about considering the nature of the assault she suffered.  Can you not understand why she would be at least apprehensive?
 
2013-02-26 12:25:06 PM

serial_crusher: If you tell a guy no, then get voluntarily drunk and change your mind, it's not rape; it's you changing your mind.


WTF?  If you want to fark a girl and she doesn't want to fark you, and your response is to just hang out with her and pretend to be her friend until she is drunk enough to make the mistake of farking you, THAT makes you a predator ... and a two-faced, shiatty friend.

The area where that changes for me is when TWO individuals meet in a club or something and both are incapacitated to the point where they aren't capable of making a sober decision about consent and then sleep together.  There are some people that would say that when those people wake up, if one of them regrets the act, then it was rape.  What if BOTH regret the act?  Is that double-rape?
 
2013-02-26 12:26:05 PM
There's a lot of interesting discussion going on in this thread, but I'm more interested in <b>meow said the dog</b> stepping out of character.
 
2013-02-26 12:26:39 PM

BarkingUnicorn: COMALite J: BarkingUnicorn: Damn, you really know your imaginary history!

Which part is imaginary? That Clayton Williams really said that? That it cost him the election? That Ann Richards won because of that? That George W. Bush was able to run against her afterwards because the GOP had no incumbent in the race? That George W. Bush could never have been taken seriously enough to run for, let alone become, President, without first being Governor of a State or a U.S. Senator? That George W. Bush's two terms, which could not have happened without that joke, seriously messed up this nation?

That we'd be $4 trillion richer if Bush hadn't been elected.


This must be some new definition of "imaginary" with which I had been previously unaware. Note that that's just the Iraq war and its ancilliary expenses. That doesn't count the other wars, the other fiscal boondoggles, the overall mismanagement of the economy, etc. Note also that this article is from The Wall Street Journal, not 'zactly the libbest lib media that ever libbed.

We were told that the bill would come to, at most, $80 billion ― $50 billion at the low end. Remember, Bush fired his economic advisor Lawrence Libby for daring to suggest that it might be as much as $200 billion ― less than $¼ trillion! It turned out to be the reciprocal of that many trillion, 16 (sixteen-fold) the estimate that Libby was canned for daring to suggest!
 
2013-02-26 12:26:50 PM

orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."


I was raped by a woman in college.  Woke up with a killer hangover and all I wanted to do was die.  Every movement was agony.  But she was a lusty wench.

"Let's fark," she said.

"No, I'm in too much pain," I groaned.

"I'll fix that," she grinned, and went down on me.

"Stop," I moaned. But she ignored me.

Then she exerted force to impale herself on me.  That wasn't me penetrating her.

So yeah, it happens.  I doubt I could  have gotten a conviction, especially given our ongoing conduct after the crime.

Tricky situation.
 
2013-02-26 12:28:52 PM

BarkingUnicorn: So yeah, it happens. I doubt I could have gotten a conviction, especially given our ongoing conduct after the crime.

Tricky situation.


Yea, that's ugly all around. Sorry  that happened to you.
 
2013-02-26 12:31:38 PM

horsepocket: There's a lot of interesting discussion going on in this thread, but I'm more interested in <b>meow said the dog</b> stepping out of character.


She mad.
 
2013-02-26 12:32:06 PM

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."

Can you point to any existing statistics or even one reputable study of any sort (one that relies on surveys of personal experiences for example rather than any reported crime statistics) that suggests that female on male rape is as common as male on female rape or is something routinely experienced by men?

I'd be interested in reading that kind of study.


Of what relevance would such statistics be?  Equal protection does not depend on equal frequency of need for it.
 
2013-02-26 12:32:41 PM

Theaetetus: fredklein: The way I see it, either rape reporting can be made 'friendlier' (which basically means totally believing her and throwing him in jail immediately), OR women can be taught to not be so embarrassed/scared of it just because it happened to a sexual area of her body.

OR the cops can use the exact same guidelines and lines of questioning they do when investigating theft or fraud, and ask about whether there was consent, rather than ask what she was wearing or how much she had to drink or whether she knew how much it would harm the reputation of this nice boy.


While I certainly hold no love for the police, I can see how those things might be relevant. And if they were, I see no problem in the cops asking those questions.

For instance, If I was mugged, it's a different story if I was sober and had my money in my wallet, as opposed to being blind drunk, staggering down an alley in the bad part of town at 4am with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets. In the latter case, I think almost all of Fark would join together in saying "Wow, that was stupid and he deserved what happened to him". Or, at the least, "Well, he didn't 'deserve it', but what did he think would happen when he did something stupid like that". But dare say something like that when it's a rape, and you're a "pro-rape apologist".


If the answers were not relevant, then I'd ask for the cops supervisor, and call my lawyer.

In any case, that does nothing to change the fact that a medical exam is necessary.
 
2013-02-26 12:32:42 PM

spiderpaz: serial_crusher: If you tell a guy no, then get voluntarily drunk and change your mind, it's not rape; it's you changing your mind.

WTF?  If you want to fark a girl and she doesn't want to fark you, and your response is to just hang out with her and pretend to be her friend until she is drunk enough to make the mistake of farking you, THAT makes you a predator ... and a two-faced, shiatty friend.


That's correct, and well said.

The area where that changes for me is when TWO individuals meet in a club or something and both are incapacitated to the point where they aren't capable of making a sober decision about consent and then sleep together.  There are some people that would say that when those people wake up, if one of them regrets the act, then it was rape.  What if BOTH regret the act?  Is that double-rape?

First, who is this mythical straw person that says that if someone  regrets the act, then it was rape? Rape is about consent or lack of consent at the time. Not whatever happens the next day.

Second, let's change the stupid "regret" thing to lack of consent, since that's what you're really asking about: both people are incapacitated to the point at which they are unable to consent and they fark.
As noted above, this would meet the elements of rape for both of them,  but there is an affirmative defense of inability to detect another's capacity. If you're so blotto you can't tell that the chick is passed out, that's a valid affirmative defense. Accordingly, if they were both incapacitated, then neither committed rape.
 
2013-02-26 12:33:32 PM
"When I went to report my assault in 2007, I asked an administrator what the process would look like," Clark said. "Instead, that person told me, 'Rape is like a football game, Annie. If you look back on the game, and you're the quarterback and you're in charge, is there anything that you would have done differently in that situation?'"

*knock**knock* Say, Walt, got a minute?
Sure, Bill, come on in! Say, you see the touchdown Biff Blockovscky made last Saturday?
Wow, yeah Walt, that was something!
I wonder if you could have a word with his Freshman Comp teacher - you know the one, skinny, goatee, *mimes limp-wrist gesture*.... take the heat off with the assignments and the grades. Can't have athletes like Biff penned up in the library reading ... Cat in the Hat ... when they should be practicing. We need Biff focused and in shape for the big game against State next month.
Sure thing, Walt.
Heck, we've only got him another year before he graduates and goes pro, we need him on the field.
I'll take care of it, Walt. Say, uh ... there's a little lady outside wants a word with you.
Oh?
Yeah. Seems some fellow ... well, had his way with her, you know how it is.
Sure I do.
Something about waking up with a concussion in a pool of her own blood.
Shame. .... Say, it wasn't one of our athletes, was it?
She's not saying who it was.
Well that's good anyway. So what's she doing here?
Says she wants to put off her mid-terms while she gets patched up.
Oh she does, does she? Anything else?
Wants us to arrange so she's not living next door to the guy anymore.
I suppose she'd like the VIP Suite at the Hilton in the meantime too? Steak dinners every night? Let the kids at the Honor Court handle it.
She's been there. Says she's been to her department, the Dean of Student affairs, the headshrinker over at the campus clinic, the cops, even the State Police.
Oh, brother.
Says if you can't fix things, she'll write the Department of Education.
DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?! Cripes, that's all we need. These ...
She seems kinda rattled about the whole thing - you know how ladies are, sometimes.
Hmm. Guess I better give her the ol' Knute Rockne halftime speech, she'll understand that. You see, Bill, you gotta know how to get through to these kids, talk their language.
You know best, Walt.
OK, send the little chippy in. And if this doesn't cool her down, we'll make her wish she'd married the poor bastard.
 
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