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(Huffington Post)   Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 1267
    More: Sick, Chapel Hill, honor code, sex crimes, Office of Civil Rights, Amherst College, art fair, U.S. Department of Education, graduate students  
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28397 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 10:30:56 AM  

5monkeys: Callous: Genevieve Marie: Callous: So that statement that I bolded in my previous post, where another poster stated that a rape could be prevented. When you jumped all over it and called it ugly, ugly bullshiat, what exactly were you trying to say there?

That the implication that rape can ALWAYS be prevented and that if a woman fails to prevent it, she is somehow complicit in it is hideous. And that's always the context there.

Women actually do know how to look out for this stuff. It's hammered into us from the time we hit puberty. Usually people aren't as good about spelling out the fact that rape happens anyway, and it's not your fault, even if it happened at a moment where you let your guard down for a second.

Rape is always the fault of the rapist. That statement should be pretty self-evident.

But that's not what Zim said.  He said it can be prevented, not that it can always be prevented.  Zim's post was clearly about mitigating risk.

A pedestrian getting run over is always the fault of the driver.  That doesn't mean that you walk out into the street without looking first.

If you have unprotected consensual sex with a person that lied to you about being HIV+ it's 100% the fault of the liar if you become infected.  But infection could have been prevented by insisting on using protection.  But there's a chance the condom could break, so it can't always be prevented.  Stop reading absolutes into everything everyone posts when they are discussing risk.  Risk is a sliding scale and never absolute.

You can try and prevent bad things from happening, but even if you don't that doesn't make the bad thing your fault. You can do all the things and still be raped. You can do none of the things and still be raped. Either way the rapist is wrong, not the victim.


And where exactly did I say anything different?  Read and understand before you respond.  You'll look less foolish.
 
2013-02-26 10:32:43 AM  
Weird how everyone I labeled in Grey "scumfark conservative" 5 is also pro-rape.
 
2013-02-26 10:33:16 AM  

Dissociater: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

I saw an 800 post thread from last night and I just HAD to see what people were talking about.


mostly we're watching a pretty consistent core of reasonably 'well known' farkers being remarkably consistent in their pro-rape views.
 
2013-02-26 10:33:26 AM  

Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.


Yeah, what's up with your lack of sleep... are you in Japan or something?
 
2013-02-26 10:34:04 AM  

James F. Campbell: Weird how everyone I labeled in Grey "scumfark conservative" 5 is also pro-rape.


dammit.  I should have refreshed before commenting.
 
2013-02-26 10:35:37 AM  

Theaetetus: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

Yeah, what's up with your lack of sleep... are you in Japan or something?


Nah, just on a really, really screwy sleep schedule at the moment and  got caught up in a few personal projects. I'm in a transition phase right now- I should be starting a new job in a few weeks- and my schedule always goes to hell when I don't have anywhere to be.
 
2013-02-26 10:37:37 AM  

5monkeys: Then don't blame a victim for not wanting to go through the collection of the evidence.


There are many things that I don't want to do, but I do anyway.

Don't trivialize the act itself as a pee pee going in a hoo ha.

But that's what it is.

Don't accuse people of trying to spread rumors by just talking to others about what happened to them.

But that's what happened. I'm not supposed to bring up what actually happened??
 
2013-02-26 10:38:02 AM  
FTA: "I'm mostly surprised at just how crazy it is, that they're willing to charge me with something just because my rapist is feeling uncomfortable. "

Until your alleged rapist becomes a convicted rapist, he has the same rights as everyone else.  It's called due process ... even though there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort.  I mean, I get that rapes are under-reported, and that when one DOES get reported, the accusation is most likely true, even though it is hard to get a conviction - but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.
 
2013-02-26 10:38:29 AM  
fredklein:
But that's what happened. I'm not supposed to bring up what actually happened??

nah, keep talking!  yer doing the conservative cause proud!
 
2013-02-26 10:40:00 AM  

spiderpaz: FTA: "I'm mostly surprised at just how crazy it is, that they're willing to charge me with something just because my rapist is feeling uncomfortable. "

Until your alleged rapist becomes a convicted rapist, he has the same rights as everyone else.  It's called due process ... even though there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort.  I mean, I get that rapes are under-reported, and that when one DOES get reported, the accusation is most likely true, even though it is hard to get a conviction - but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.


How does any of what you said match up with the quote you chose to highlight? Because her rapist has a right to due process, it's totally ok to charge her with an honor code violation?
 
2013-02-26 10:41:09 AM  
spiderpaz: ...  but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.

Crazier farkies who said stuff like: "there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort."?
The ones who a search through this thread can't find and you can't quote or name?
Those crazier farkies?

www.openmarket.org
 
2013-02-26 10:41:56 AM  

Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.


I don't know that I'm glad I just wandered in here. Good lord.
 
2013-02-26 10:42:14 AM  

Genevieve Marie: spiderpaz: FTA: "I'm mostly surprised at just how crazy it is, that they're willing to charge me with something just because my rapist is feeling uncomfortable. "

Until your alleged rapist becomes a convicted rapist, he has the same rights as everyone else.  It's called due process ... even though there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort.  I mean, I get that rapes are under-reported, and that when one DOES get reported, the accusation is most likely true, even though it is hard to get a conviction - but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.

How does any of what you said match up with the quote you chose to highlight? Because her rapist has a right to due process, it's totally ok to charge her with an honor code violation?


No, he wants to force victims to call themselves "alleged victims".
 
2013-02-26 10:43:51 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Theaetetus: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

Yeah, what's up with your lack of sleep... are you in Japan or something?

Nah, just on a really, really screwy sleep schedule at the moment and  got caught up in a few personal projects. I'm in a transition phase right now- I should be starting a new job in a few weeks- and my schedule always goes to hell when I don't have anywhere to be.


Ah. Congrats and good luck with the new job.
 
2013-02-26 10:46:01 AM  

Genevieve Marie: How does any of what you said match up with the quote you chose to highlight? Because her rapist has a right to due process, it's totally ok to charge her with an honor code violation?


The particulars are not public yet.  But I suspect if she is repeatedly making comments about him on Facebook, et al where friends and acquaintances can see it.... that's pretty obviously a situation where claims of harassment could arise.
 
2013-02-26 10:46:05 AM  

Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.


Glad to know rape culture culture is alive and well.
 
2013-02-26 10:47:09 AM  

Genevieve Marie: liam76: No the analogy was that getting drunk around people you can't trust is like being in a bad neighborhood. If you have something you want they may try and take advantage of you to take it.

How exactly do you tell the people you can trust from the people you can't? Do you think rapists wear t-shirts announcing  themselves?



Do you think thieves wear t-shirts?

And gah, the idea that your body is something you should constantly be aware of other people coveting is just... gah, I don't think most men can imagine what a mindfark that is.

Nobody said that.

Genevieve Marie: Yes, but when you're hungover and sick and it's someone you know and you're an 18 or 19 year old kid away from home the first time, your first thought is not going to be "I'll go straight to the police, and share this incredibly scary and humiliating experience and they will believe me, and once I get through the next four hours of having my vagina, mouth and anus swabbed for fluids in the presence of at least two nurses and then have all my clothes confiscated and my body hair combed, everything is going to be ok"

Some women can pull that off. A lot of women go straight into traumatic shut down mode, and people who don't understand why that is have some major issues with empathizing with others.


If I knew I was raped, yes it would.

If I wasn't sure exactly what happened, no I wouldn't.

Pretty sure most hospitals don't take "all yoru clothes" as part of the investigation.
 
2013-02-26 10:47:35 AM  

CapeFearCadaver: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

I don't know that I'm glad I just wandered in here. Good lord.


I kinda like it when we get a glimpse behind the curtain.  a lot of the pro-rape crowd here on fark are also very open about their Republican beliefs.  is there a connection?  got me.  but it is certainly suggestive.
 
2013-02-26 10:47:43 AM  

Theaetetus: spiderpaz: ...  but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.

Crazier farkies who said stuff like: "there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort."?
The ones who a search through this thread can't find and you can't quote or name?
Those crazier farkies?

[www.openmarket.org image 488x427]


Well the reference was obviously to you, although I tried not to directly engage you for the same reason most people don't strike up the crazy homeless guy screaming at cars driving by.  I'm really not interested in having the same conversation with you about your ridiculous double standards, and over-the-top aggressive, ranting style of debate AGAIN.

I'll concede that the word  castrate was a bit hyperbolic, because you have stopped short of that.  Just short.
 
2013-02-26 10:49:39 AM  

Dissociater: fredklein:
Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

Why does it have to be compared to attempted murder in order to be serious?


Because rape is considered "terrifying", so it needs to be compared to something actually terrifying, like the threat of being killed or maimed.

Besides the fact that it's taking something that's supposed to be a good and fun thing (sex) and turning it into something traumatic and painful.  Can you not see how this could not only affect a rape victim in the moment, but also for the rest of their life?  It could affect future and current romantic relations quite seriously.  This should be apparent.

A guy gets mugged while walking down a street. This turns a 'good and fun thing' into something traumatic and painful. But do you see a quarter million men* letting that affect them for the rest of their lives? Afraid to walk down the street? Puh-leeze.

*-Nationwide in 2005, there were an estimated 417,122 robbery offenses
 
2013-02-26 10:50:47 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

What in the f*ck is wrong with you?


So, you believe getting raped is More traumatic than almost getting Killed??

What the f*ck is wrong with you?
 
2013-02-26 10:53:00 AM  

fredklein: Tat'dGreaser: fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

What in the f*ck is wrong with you?

So, you believe getting raped is More traumatic than almost getting Killed??

What the f*ck is wrong with you?


well, tell ya what.  how about we rape you almost to death, then have you fill out a questionnaire about your experience so that we can help you understand this situation a bit better?  would that help?

its all good.  it'll be for posterity.
 
2013-02-26 10:53:08 AM  

liam76: Pretty sure most hospitals don't take "all yoru clothes" as part of the investigation.


Yea, you should maybe familiarize yourself with rape examination procedures:

http://barcc.org/forensics/saf/evidence/exam
 
2013-02-26 10:53:43 AM  

orbister: vygramul: If I was unclear, my example was focused on how the drunk driver doesn't get out of the manslaughter charge just because they were both drunk, meaning the drunk rapist doesn't get out of a rape charge even though they were both drunk.

If two drunk people (whether MM, FM or FF is irrelevant here) have sex together, which one is the rapist?


If I've learned anything from this thread, it's that all men either have raped someone or wish to rape someone or would rape someone given the chance, and that anyone who defends someone who probably did not rape someone is still a misogynist asshole because they are white-knighting someone who likely will rape or at the very least wants to rape someone.
 
2013-02-26 10:55:06 AM  

Weaver95: CapeFearCadaver: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

I don't know that I'm glad I just wandered in here. Good lord.

I kinda like it when we get a glimpse behind the curtain.  a lot of the pro-rape crowd here on fark are also very open about their Republican beliefs.  is there a connection?  got me.  but it is certainly suggestive.


There certainly appears to be a strong correlation between rigid authoritarian perspectives and really terrible attitudes about rape.

And yea, these threads are always a solid reminder of why I care about the things I care about.
 
2013-02-26 10:55:49 AM  

5monkeys: serial_crusher: 5monkeys: To all the "she should have went to the police otherwise it isn't true" people. I was raped. I didn't go to the police. Why? Because I was 17 and afraid. He was a football player. He was a star in our school and I was a nobody. I knew no one would believe me, or even worse they would blame me. I just wanted to move past it. It took me ten years. Are you saying I am a liar? That it never happened?

Sorry to hear that.  But, did you go to the school board to complain about it, or did you just keep quiet all together.  Because all the things you were afraid of: nobody believing you, siding with him...  All those things would have been just as likely to happen if you went to the school's honor court or the media instead of the police.

Your story is an unfortunately common one, but it doesn't seem consistent with this girl's actions.  It's not that she didn't report the rape to the police.  It's that she reported it to everybody except the police.

I told my best friend and she told people who told people. Within a week I was being harassed in the hall, threatened by other girls in the locker room and bathroom. I was basically told if I snitched I would get stabbed. So I went from a bubbly happy teeneager to a girl who hid in a hoodie everyday hoping to be invisible. My friends all turned on me because he was in our group. I was the liar and he was the victim. That was the worst part. The rape was bad, but what happened later was devastating. I got to the point where I didn't want to live anymore. My mom called crisis on me and I finally told the adults what happened. They wanted me to go to the police, but I refused. There was no point. I couldn't have handled the investigation. So, I got therapy. And new friends. I graduated and married. And one day I realized it was a week after my rape date and I hadn't noticed. I knew I was finally better.

I should have went to the police. Another girl was raped by the same guy a few months after me. She ...


So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?
 
2013-02-26 10:57:15 AM  

fredklein: So, you believe getting raped is More traumatic than almost getting Killed??

What the f*ck is wrong with you?


I truly hope you never have children
 
2013-02-26 10:58:15 AM  

Weaver95: pro-rape crowd here


I'm pretty sure referring to anyone except actual rapists as "pro-rape" is the biggest strawman in the history of the world.  Kudos.
 
2013-02-26 10:59:13 AM  

liam76: So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?


Eh, that's a pretty common perception among teenage girls.
 
2013-02-26 11:00:34 AM  

spiderpaz: Theaetetus: spiderpaz: ...  but the blind frothing rage from some of the crazier farkies on here any time there's a "rape" thread is counter-productive.  It just makes you look crazy, and it seems like you don't have any respect for legal principles or the rights of defendants that human beings have fought for thousands of years to have.

Crazier farkies who said stuff like: "there are those that would throw that out the window and just castrate any man ever accused of rape without a trial or evidence of any sort."?
The ones who a search through this thread can't find and you can't quote or name?
Those crazier farkies?

[www.openmarket.org image 488x427]

Well the reference was obviously to you, although I tried not to directly engage you for the same reason most people don't strike up the crazy homeless guy screaming at cars driving by.  I'm really not interested in having the same conversation with you about your ridiculous double standards, and over-the-top aggressive, ranting style of debate AGAIN.

I'll concede that the word  castrate was a bit hyperbolic, because you have stopped short of that.  Just short.


Or rather, completely. I've never said anything like it, and you can't quote me  once. You come right out and say you were referring to me, so either put up some copy-pasta quote from me, or shut the fark up, you spineless "try not directly engage" troll.
 
2013-02-26 11:01:00 AM  

Genevieve Marie: fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

You seriously don't understand why rape is  deeply personal? Why a teenage girl in particular would feel so dirty and violated and ashamed of what happened to her?


You seriously don't understand why getting beaten to a pulp is deeply personal? Why a teenage boy (or worse, a full-grown man) in particular would feel so humiliated and violated and ashamed of what happened to him?

How following that up with an examination that lasts several hours and involves more unwanted objects being stuck in your bodily orifices might be too terrifying to contemplate in a moment where you feel dirty and scared and alone?

Again, it's a process that needs to be done if evidence is to be collected. WHAT DO YOU WANT DONE ABOUT IT? It wasn't invented by a evul man just to make women feel worse about themselves.

And are you seriously trying to imply that talking about the way a teenage girl might feel about rape means I'm totally ignoring the fact that men can be scared to?

So, women are "terrified" of a penis, and men are merely 'scared' of almost getting killed.

And dude, seriously? Do you not get why someone might be more embarrassed and ashamed to share the details of sexual assault than they would be to report a mugging?

No. But I'm not a prude. Body parts are body parts. It's no more embarrassing (for me) to say "someone assaulted me by grabbing my penis" than it is to say "someone assaulted me by grabbing my shoulder".
 
2013-02-26 11:01:43 AM  

Halophilic: Weaver95: pro-rape crowd here

I'm pretty sure referring to anyone except actual rapists as "pro-rape" is the biggest strawman in the history of the world.  Kudos.


excuse me but...have you READ this discussion thread!?
 
2013-02-26 11:02:49 AM  

Weaver95: CapeFearCadaver: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

I don't know that I'm glad I just wandered in here. Good lord.

I kinda like it when we get a glimpse behind the curtain.  a lot of the pro-rape crowd here on fark are also very open about their Republican beliefs.  is there a connection?  got me.  but it is certainly suggestive.


(Man, I can't believe I'm coming back to this trainwreck for another day either)

I don't think that's a fair characterization of your opponents in this discussion, Weaver95. I don't see any "pro-rape" people in this thread. I do see people who object to labeling this man as "her rapist" based purely on one person's allegation. American society unfortunately finds it dangerously easy to equate accusation with guilt for certain crimes.

If this were a thread about grandma being accused by the MPAA of downloading a Django Unchained from her open WiFi network, or about Wendy's Lady finding another finger in her Chili, we wouldn't all be so quick into the thread to call for punishment for the "obviously guilty" accused. But, for whatever reason, when it comes to a rape allegation, you're a terrible person if you want to see the proof.
 
2013-02-26 11:03:26 AM  

Genevieve Marie: There certainly appears to be a strong correlation between rigid authoritarian perspectives and really terrible attitudes about rape.


its entirely consistent with an authoritarian world view.  rape is all about power, and that's what keeps authoritarians going - power over others.
 
2013-02-26 11:03:52 AM  

Halophilic: Weaver95: pro-rape crowd here

I'm pretty sure referring to anyone except actual rapists as "pro-rape" is the biggest strawman in the history of the world.  Kudos.


Even that is too broad of a brush you're painting with.  Most rapists are unpaid amateurs.  Really, it's not a sport people get into for profit, just love of the game.
 
2013-02-26 11:04:21 AM  

liam76: So you were a nobody but the star of the school was in your group?


Yea, no. This isn't going tot happen. This thread is not going to turn into one where you question the details of someone who has chosen to share their personal story and indicate that you think they're being less than truthful. No. Not ok. Not even a little bit ok.

Most high school groups contain a range of people. There are leaders and followers. Being friends with a popular person does not mean you wield the same kind of power in school. But that's all beside the point, and the point is that questioning someone's personal story about their rape experience in a situation where they're sharing it anonymously and not on a witness stand is not ok.
 
2013-02-26 11:05:53 AM  

5monkeys: I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I am so proud of you for doing what I was afraid to do and getting his sick ass tossed in jail. Those people who didn't believe it even after he was convicted are the same ones who cry foul if you don't go to the cops. They don't want to believe they couldn't spot the monster therefore he couldn't be one. Bunch of aholes.


And I'm sorry that you had to go through it, too. Don't consider yourself weak for not reporting it to the police; consider yourself strong for surviving despite everything. Again, Internet hugs. :)

Also, for what it's worth, don't put too much stock in the pro-rape contingent. Most of them don't actually believe their own bullshiat, they're just friendless wastes of space who get either a boner or a paycheque from pissing people off.
 
2013-02-26 11:06:01 AM  

Weaver95: CapeFearCadaver: Genevieve Marie: I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.

I don't know that I'm glad I just wandered in here. Good lord.

I kinda like it when we get a glimpse behind the curtain.  a lot of the pro-rape crowd here on fark are also very open about their Republican beliefs.  is there a connection?  got me.  but it is certainly suggestive.


It's every single thread that has to deal with violence against women. Rape, domestic violence, stalking, VAWA, rape. Every one of them. It's depressing. Add a cold rainy day and I just want to crawl back in bed and forget it happened.

People actually think this way. They live amongst us. Good lord.
 
2013-02-26 11:06:23 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: I don't think that's a fair characterization of your opponents in this discussion, Weaver95. I don't see any "pro-rape" people in this thread.


stiletto_the_wise: Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.


You criticized a definition of rape that includes drugging and having sex with someone who told you they weren't interested. That sounds pretty pro-rape.
 
2013-02-26 11:07:30 AM  

Halophilic: Weaver95: pro-rape crowd here

I'm pretty sure referring to anyone except actual rapists as "pro-rape" is the biggest strawman in the history of the world.  Kudos.


"Pro-rape" is poorly worded. But some people in here, fredklein being the best example, could be fairly called rape apologists.
 
2013-02-26 11:08:53 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: If this were a thread about grandma being accused by the MPAA of downloading a Django Unchained from her open WiFi network, or about Wendy's Lady finding another finger in her Chili, we wouldn't all be so quick into the thread to call for punishment for the "obviously guilty" accused.


This thread isn't about the rapist. It's about the university and the way they treated 65 people who reported rapes on campus. That devolved into a derailing comment thread about why this one woman is probably a liar and how people shouldn't rush to send her accuser to jail- which was a total strawman, since she declined to press charges and is protecting his identity in the press.

And it's interesting that you equate someone who's been accused of rape with someone who's been accused of illegal downloading or lying about food contamination. Seriously? You think that's an appropriate analogy?
 
2013-02-26 11:10:53 AM  

Theaetetus: stiletto_the_wise: I don't think that's a fair characterization of your opponents in this discussion, Weaver95. I don't see any "pro-rape" people in this thread.

stiletto_the_wise: Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.

You criticized a definition of rape that includes drugging and having sex with someone who told you they weren't interested. That sounds pretty pro-rape.


You left out the word "maybe", which was kind of important to the original story.
If you tell a guy no, then get voluntarily drunk and change your mind, it's not rape; it's you changing your mind.
 
2013-02-26 11:11:18 AM  

Genevieve Marie: liam76: Pretty sure most hospitals don't take "all yoru clothes" as part of the investigation.

Yea, you should maybe familiarize yourself with rape examination procedures:

http://barcc.org/forensics/saf/evidence/exam


Maybe you should follow your own advice.

The survivor is in control of the entire exam. Before each step of the Kit, the medical provider should explain the step and ask the survivor if they want to continue. Nothing will be done that the survivor does not agree to.The medical provider may collect samples from the survivor's mouth, vaginal and/or anal cavities, fingernails, and other parts of the body that the perpetrator touched during the assault.Clothing and undergarments may be collected as evidence during the rape examThey don't "take all your clothes".  They will ask to swab areas where it happened.  You do your arguments no favors bt pretending that reporting rapes means they will force you to be swabbed in all oriffices and they will take all yoru clothes.
 
2013-02-26 11:11:21 AM  
stiletto_the_wise:
I don't think that's a fair characterization of your opponents in this discussion, Weaver95. I don't see any "pro-rape" people in this thread. I do see people who object to labeling this man as "her rapist" based purely on one person's allegation. American society unfortunately finds it dangerously easy to equate accusation with guilt for certain crimes.

I see a lot of people here blaming the victim.  or implying that rape isn't a real crime.  and most of those folks are also the same people I know from other conversations as being extremely authoritarian and/or conservative christian Republican types.  when I see someone that I know has a consistent history of always blaming the victim show up in a rape discussion and blames the victim...well, I feel on firm and solid ground for saying they are 'pro-rape'.  especially when I know they've NEVER ever believed any victim anywhere no matter how much evidence a victim has show up with in the past.

a lot of the pro-rape crowd here in this discussion are True Believer Republican types.  the ones who saw nothing wrong with the 'legitimate rape' comments made popular by certain members of the Republican party.  just sayin that its a consistent world view is all.
 
2013-02-26 11:12:09 AM  

Theaetetus: You criticized a definition of rape that includes drugging and having sex with someone who told you they weren't interested. That sounds pretty pro-rape.


If you think that's a "pro-rape" statement, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills, or you're being deliberately dishonest. My comment was that that particular definition of rape includes many things that are difficult, if not impossible to prove. You jumped to the conclusion that I was "pro-rape" based on nothing.
 
2013-02-26 11:13:52 AM  
but that's just like...my opinion man.
 
2013-02-26 11:14:28 AM  

liam76: Genevieve Marie: liam76: Pretty sure most hospitals don't take "all yoru clothes" as part of the investigation.

Yea, you should maybe familiarize yourself with rape examination procedures:

http://barcc.org/forensics/saf/evidence/exam

Maybe you should follow your own advice.

The survivor is in control of the entire exam. Before each step of the Kit, the medical provider should explain the step and ask the survivor if they want to continue. Nothing will be done that the survivor does not agree to.The medical provider may collect samples from the survivor's mouth, vaginal and/or anal cavities, fingernails, and other parts of the body that the perpetrator touched during the assault.Clothing and undergarments may be collected as evidence during the rape examThey don't "take all your clothes".  They will ask to swab areas where it happened.  You do your arguments no favors bt pretending that reporting rapes means they will force you to be swabbed in all oriffices and they will take all yoru clothes.


The survivor has to consent to each stage of the exam- yes. But the process of the exam still requires collecting evidence from wherever you were touched by the rapist. It involves swabbing your private areas. It DOES involve leaving your clothes behind if they can be used as evidence. It requires being naked and vulnerable and having pictures taken of every single abuse done to your body at a time when you already feel all of your privacy has been stripped away.

I don't get why it's hard to understand why going through that kind of exam would be particularly traumatic right after a rape. Why you can shrug it off like "Hey, what's the big deal if you have to spend several hours at an ER going through an invasive exam if you have the right to walk away halfway through?"

I'm beating my head against a wall here, I know it, but have you seriously never considered what it would be like to be raped?
 
2013-02-26 11:14:53 AM  

serial_crusher: You left out the word "maybe", which was kind of important to the original story.

If you tell a guy no, then get voluntarily drunk and change your mind, it's not rape; it's you changing your mind.

You added the words "voluntary" and "change your mind", and the absence of those are kind of important to the original story. In fact, the original story said "you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested." Instead, you're changing that to "you did say yes." Crucial difference which you have to supply since, y'know, otherwise it's rape.

Plus, it may well be rape anyway, if she was too drunk to consent.
 
2013-02-26 11:15:11 AM  

Genevieve Marie: But that's all beside the point, and the point is that questioning someone's personal story about their rape experience in a situation where they're sharing it anonymously and not on a witness stand is not ok


I was accused of rape.  If I told my story would you be defending everything I said as staunchly?

/nevermind the fact that I in no way questioned her rape, just her envisioned social standing
 
2013-02-26 11:15:14 AM  

Genevieve Marie: And it's interesting that you equate someone who's been accused of rape with someone who's been accused of illegal downloading or lying about food contamination. Seriously? You think that's an appropriate analogy?


Again, reading comprehension. Use your eyes to read, not your emotions. I never "equated" these crimes, I'm comparing Farkers' reactions to people who are accused. On one hand it's fine and dandy to question the accuser's story, but on the other, doing so makes you "pro-rape".
 
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