5monkeys: Thanks. I will. I honestly thought I was further than this. I should really avoid rape threads.

Honestly, I think just about anyone with a soul would find this thread depressing. No weakness in avoiding things that make you feel bad- there are a lot of fun threads where the misogyny doesn't get out of control.

Thunderpipes: Genevieve,

Why not just jail all men right now? Only way to be safe, right? Pales in comparison to the what ifs if we let them walk the streets. According to you, that should be legal.

Why are you trying to keep all non-rapist men afraid? You've been continuously spouting this false accusation bullshiat, in an effort to turn it into a men vs. women thing. But it's not. It's a normal person vs. sociopath thing. And we're on to you.

Dissociater: I'm not even sure what people are arguing about at this point...

basically there are two factions:

pro-rapists, who believe that rape isn't a 'real crime' and that the university shouldn't accommodate any whiny biatch who makes a claim of rape no matter what she says or does.   in their view, the university is completely justified in ignoring 67 cases of alleged rape and not giving those victims the benefit of the doubt.  the pro-rapists also honestly believe that a shoddy, student run 'honor system' (with no training or experience) is a great way to handle student allegations of rape and that all students who claim rape should be forced to use that system instead of going to the cops.  oh, and it goes without saying that complaining about how bad an idea all of the above is, should get you bounced from the university because rocking the boat and complaining about being treated badly by the university means you're an ungrateful asshole.

the anti-rapists, who believe the university should have found a better way to handle these claims of rape, and addressed the issue with the students and faculty to come up with a policy that acknowledged claims of rape and handled them with confidentiality and professionalism.  oh, and it goes without saying that the anti-rape crowd thinks rape is wrong and that we should stop blaming the victim(s).  the anti-rape faction is also largely horrified by the knuckle dragging dick holes who seem to think rape isn't a real crime and is torn between vomiting in disgust or trying to gently explain to the pro-rapists that they really shouldn't be pro-rape because rape is bad.

Tat'dGreaser: Well that's not very nice

No, I'm not commenting on you. You will not fail because of something wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you (so far as I know). The problem is the hierarchy of power, silence, and fear already in place in law enforcement. I have read too many articles about decent people -- starry-eyed idealists -- who believed they could change the corruption and abuse of the system from the inside who were instead chewed up and spit out.

Sean M: Now, the story itself seems a bit more unclear. She woke up covered in blood? She didn't know what happened? She didn't know how she got there? No one else knows? Doesn't sound right there.

The article covers multiple cases. In the one you're referring to, the woman was diagnosed with a concussion resulting from the attack. Her disorientation and memory loss had a diagnosable physical cause.

And yea, if she was alone and beaten up, it makes total sense that no one would know what happened or how it went down.

Thanks, Genevieve Marie. As if I didn't already waste enough time online. :P

James F. Campbell: Thanks, Genevieve Marie. As if I didn't already waste enough time online. :P

I generally try to turn bad threads as positive as  I can :) Enjoy!

Dissociater: Why is there anyone that is pro-rape?

because they don't believe rape is a 'real' crime.  near as I can tell, they believe the victim is a lying whore and that 'real rape' is rare and almost never happens to anyone.

htomc: And then, there's "Carolina Girls"..... well known in the area by the not-so-scientific observations:

Ah, so in other words they're sluts. And everyone knows sluts can't be raped.

And this is totally not misogynistic and anyone who sees the misogyny is the REAL misandrist. Or something.

Genevieve Marie: And I'd agree with that. Thankfully, the rules were revised here and that kind of rape IS recognized... especially when committed on a child. Actually, from what I understand, pedophilia is one of the areas where female rapists can be statistically significant. Men are at their most vulnerable to most types of sexual assault as young children.

As I understand it, the FBI redefinition still has some issues, although it is a start. The US is still ahead of the UK on this one.

Dissociater: Weaver95: Dissociater: Why is there anyone that is pro-rape?

because they don't believe rape is a 'real' crime.  near as I can tell, they believe the victim is a lying whore and that 'real rape' is rare and almost never happens to anyone.

That sounds like crazy talk to me.

http://www.alternet.org/speakeasy/brucewilson/supersized-chart-repub li can-rape-gaffes-highlights-growing-influence-religious

'nuff said.

Genevieve Marie: Callous: So that statement that I bolded in my previous post, where another poster stated that a rape could be prevented. When you jumped all over it and called it ugly, ugly bullshiat, what exactly were you trying to say there?

That the implication that rape can ALWAYS be prevented and that if a woman fails to prevent it, she is somehow complicit in it is hideous. And that's always the context there.

Women actually do know how to look out for this stuff. It's hammered into us from the time we hit puberty. Usually people aren't as good about spelling out the fact that rape happens anyway, and it's not your fault, even if it happened at a moment where you let your guard down for a second.

Rape is always the fault of the rapist. That statement should be pretty self-evident.

But that's not what Zim said.  He said it can be prevented, not that it can always be prevented.  Zim's post was clearly about mitigating risk.

A pedestrian getting run over is always the fault of the driver.  That doesn't mean that you walk out into the street without looking first.

If you have unprotected consensual sex with a person that lied to you about being HIV+ it's 100% the fault of the liar if you become infected.  But infection could have been prevented by insisting on using protection.  But there's a chance the condom could break, so it can't always be prevented.  Stop reading absolutes into everything everyone posts when they are discussing risk.  Risk is a sliding scale and never absolute.

orbister: Dissociater: Why is there anyone that is pro-rape?

There isn't. Nobody has made anything closely approaching the points characterised as pro-rape. Everybody here is anti-rape, but some of us take a less simplistic view of life than others, and don't believe, for example, that the word "rape" immediately trumps all notions of justice, due process and evidence.

if it was one or two women claiming rape...ok, I can see your point.  But the university has over 60 women all with similar stories.  kinda makes me wonder what's going on on with that campus and why the school administration tanked the discussion and shuffled it off to kiddie court.

Callous: Genevieve Marie: Callous: So that statement that I bolded in my previous post, where another poster stated that a rape could be prevented. When you jumped all over it and called it ugly, ugly bullshiat, what exactly were you trying to say there?

That the implication that rape can ALWAYS be prevented and that if a woman fails to prevent it, she is somehow complicit in it is hideous. And that's always the context there.

Women actually do know how to look out for this stuff. It's hammered into us from the time we hit puberty. Usually people aren't as good about spelling out the fact that rape happens anyway, and it's not your fault, even if it happened at a moment where you let your guard down for a second.

Rape is always the fault of the rapist. That statement should be pretty self-evident.

But that's not what Zim said.  He said it can be prevented, not that it can always be prevented.  Zim's post was clearly about mitigating risk.

A pedestrian getting run over is always the fault of the driver.  That doesn't mean that you walk out into the street without looking first.

If you have unprotected consensual sex with a person that lied to you about being HIV+ it's 100% the fault of the liar if you become infected.  But infection could have been prevented by insisting on using protection.  But there's a chance the condom could break, so it can't always be prevented.  Stop reading absolutes into everything everyone posts when they are discussing risk.  Risk is a sliding scale and never absolute.

Yes, but exactly how far are women expected to go to mitigate risk? And do you see why it's such an impossible standard to demand of women- the idea that all or most rapes can be prevented if only we're careful enough? And how irksome it is to hear some dude spout off something about risk management like he's just discovered the theory of relativity when what he's talking about is second nature to most women?

And also- do you not get how not ok it is to bring up in reference to a rape that's already happened. The implication there is always "Shame. If only she'd done something to prevent it from happening to her." That is ALWAYS shifting the burden back onto the woman in question- implying that in some small way, she's at least partially responsible for the choice someone else made to violate her body.

It's such an unkind thing to do.

fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

What in the f*ck is wrong with you?

Tat'dGreaser: fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

What in the f*ck is wrong with you?

he's one of those 'pro-rape' guys I was referring to earlier.

fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

You seriously don't understand why rape is  deeply personal? Why a teenage girl in particular would feel so dirty and violated and ashamed of what happened to her? How following that up with an examination that lasts several hours and involves more unwanted objects being stuck in your bodily orifices might be too terrifying to contemplate in a moment where you feel dirty and scared and alone?

And are you seriously trying to imply that talking about the way a teenage girl might feel about rape means I'm totally ignoring the fact that men can be scared to? Or are you so blinded by your own privilege that you think any discussion about women is automatically exclusionary to men?

And dude, seriously? Do you not get why someone might be more embarrassed and ashamed to share the details of sexual assault than they would be to report a mugging?

If you have daughters and you can't even extend incredibly basic empathy towards young women, I feel really terrible for them- and terrible for you too, because it's going to have a negative influence on your relationship with them whether you're aware of it or not.

FatherChaos: Wow, it took this long for this?

Dissociater: Weaver95: Tat'dGreaser: fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

What in the f*ck is wrong with you?

he's one of those 'pro-rape' guys I was referring to earlier.

I didn't think it was a thing but...here we are.

some guys don't believe rape is a crime.  and there's nothing you can do to convince them otherwise.

Weaver95: he's one of those 'pro-rape' guys I was referring to earlier.

Am I crazy or did he also say he has daughters?

Weaver95: Dissociater: Weaver95: Tat'dGreaser: fredklein: Terrifying? Deeply personal? A guy stuck his pee pee in your hoo ha, against your will. Why is that any more "terrifying" than a man, say, having a loaded gun pointed at his head? Or a man being beaten half to death? (Or don't men's feelings count?)

What in the f*ck is wrong with you?

he's one of those 'pro-rape' guys I was referring to earlier.

I didn't think it was a thing but...here we are.

some guys don't believe rape is a crime.  and there's nothing you can do to convince them otherwise.

And god, when those guys have daughters, it makes me sick to my stomach to think of what it would be like for that girl to have to go through anything like this with that kind of parent and being raised in a household that promotes these ideas.

fredklein: Rape is often one of those 'he said/she said' crimes- the only 'evidence' is the testimony of both sides. In any such case, there are those who will tend to believe one side or the other. This is the way it is, and nothing can be done about it. Unless you propose the Law automatically believe the accuser?? Screw 'evidence'- throw the man in jail!!

Theft is often one of those 'he said/she said' crimes- the only 'evidence' is the testimony of both sides. In any such case, there are those who will tend to believe one side or the other. This is the way it is, and nothing can be done about it. Unless you propose the Law automatically believe the accuser?? Screw 'evidence'- throw the man in jail!!

Same goes for fraud, too. But yet, somehow, we're able to judge the credibility of the complaining victim and the credibility of the accused and figure out what to do. Why should sexual crimes be the one area where we throw our hands up and say "gosh, witness testimony isn't enough evidence!"

fredklein: Weaver95: Dissociater: Why is there anyone that is pro-rape?

because they don't believe rape is a 'real' crime.  near as I can tell, they believe the victim is a lying whore and that 'real rape' is rare and almost never happens to anyone.

Rape is a real crime. Women who claim to be victims are sometimes lying (and sometimes are whores). And rape is relatively rare (90,000, compared to 2,000,000 burglaries, for example).

I rest my case.

I am so, so glad a few decent human beings woke up and wandered in here.