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28403 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:    more»

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robohobo: Legios: orbister: Abacus9: True, but this is not even remotely the same thing. In fact, the errors in judgment mad buy a drunk driver are exactly why a rape victim is not held accountable for being raped while drunk.

We hold drunk drivers responsible for the acts they commit while drunk.

Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

robohobo:
Okay, fine. What is SHE's the drunk driver, offers a drunk bar patron a ride. They smash. But officer, He MADE me drive. What then? Is the woman always innocent by default?

If he literally forced her to drive then yes, she is innocent. She was effectively a hostage in that situation being forced to perform the actions under duress.

But in this case he didn't. She was more than happy to drive him until consequences, then it's all his fault. That's the thing. This shiat is impossible to prove, yet it's almost always HIS fault.

We start heading in to sociology and public perception here, and it just gets ugly. But yes, that's true. The guy is ALWAYS the instigator no matter what. Everything needs to be considered in its entirety.

/You peeps still sticking around seem like a good bunch

Legios: For ellipses use three

I wanted to put two ellipses.

I just want to say that in law I am against ANY default judgement.

Its like saying "In absence of any evidence we find the defendant guilty" and that is just wrong.

liam76: Genevieve Marie: The scenario I described earlier in the thread- the one that's more indicative of most university sexual violence- would you consider that a reasonable allegation of rape?

BS.

Most university sexual violence happens when drunk, not when walking home from class.

Which is exactly the scenario I described earlier...

"Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.
So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?
Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.
At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?
That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very resistant to providing any services for women who go through this."

orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."

Can you point to any existing statistics or even one reputable study of any sort (one that relies on surveys of personal experiences for example rather than any reported crime statistics) that suggests that female on male rape is as common as male on female rape or is something routinely experienced by men?

I'd be interested in reading that kind of study.

Legios: Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

Dunno what the laws are in your part of the world, but here (UK) you will be prosecuted and if found guilty you will go to prison for driving drunk, whether or not you have an accident. A friend of mine who is a magistrate tells me that it is not uncommon for the accused to claim drunkenness as a mitigating factor in a wide variety of crimes - assault, theft, that sort of thing - and that they get an unpleasant surprise when they find that the courts view it as an aggravating factor. "Everybody knows that getting drunk decreases your reasoning powers, so if you get drunk and commit a crime you have to take responsibility both for the crime and for getting drunk" seems to be the view.

orbister: Legios: Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

Dunno what the laws are in your part of the world, but here (UK) you will be prosecuted and if found guilty you will go to prison for driving drunk, whether or not you have an accident. A friend of mine who is a magistrate tells me that it is not uncommon for the accused to claim drunkenness as a mitigating factor in a wide variety of crimes - assault, theft, that sort of thing - and that they get an unpleasant surprise when they find that the courts view it as an aggravating factor. "Everybody knows that getting drunk decreases your reasoning powers, so if you get drunk and commit a crime you have to take responsibility both for the crime and for getting drunk" seems to be the view.

Being drunk while woman is not a crime. That's where this analogy falls apart spectacularly.

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."

Can you point to any existing statistics or even one reputable study of any sort (one that relies on surveys of personal experiences for example rather than any reported crime statistics) that suggests that female on male rape is as common as male on female rape or is something routinely experienced by men?

I'd be interested in reading that kind of study.

CDC NISVS 2010?

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."

Can you point to any existing statistics or even one reputable study of any sort (one that relies on surveys of personal experiences for example rather than any reported crime statistics) that suggests that female on male rape is as common as male on female rape or is something routinely experienced by men?

I'd be interested in reading that kind of study.

You might find one, but it won't be a valid study. A lot of arguments are that 'He had a hard-on! It wasn't rape!' which is an incorrect assumption because a lot of people become sexually aroused when raped (eg. an erection or vaginal lubrication) which is a physiological response and as such has SFA to do with the psychological state of the person being raped.

/I might be able to find one if I search hard enough, but the read would make you want to throw up a little...

Hagenhatesyouall: Was the dude convicted of raping her?

If so, the school is farked.

If not, then that biatch needs to shut the fark up and suck up some slander charges.

That's not the only thing she sucked up, if you know what I mean.

/hey-oh!

Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

The Peoples Republic of Chapel Hill does all it can to protect it liberal image

Legios: vygramul: Legios: orbister: Abacus9: True, but this is not even remotely the same thing. In fact, the errors in judgment mad buy a drunk driver are exactly why a rape victim is not held accountable for being raped while drunk.

We hold drunk drivers responsible for the acts they commit while drunk.

Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

robohobo:
Okay, fine. What is SHE's the drunk driver, offers a drunk bar patron a ride. They smash. But officer, He MADE me drive. What then? Is the woman always innocent by default?

If he literally forced her to drive then yes, she is innocent. She was effectively a hostage in that situation being forced to perform the actions under duress.

I think the analogy is being taken way beyond any usefulness.

I completely agree.

The analogy was the drunk man was in the car with a drunk woman who is not forced to drive but crashes the car and then claims to the policeman that she was forced to drive. You seem to have implied a situation which was not the proposed one to avoid saying that a woman can drive drunk without being forced and be at fault and then lie about it later...  (although the analogy should be that both were out of the car when the police turned up and she claimed he was driving)

Should the man be prosecuted by default because the woman was drunk I believe was the question.

To be clear, the rape analogy is that the woman was not raped, she and the man were drunk and she claims rape in the morning due to regret.

It seems plain that the driving analogy as presented leads to the woman being convicted and the rape analogy leads to the man being convicted (barring any evidence other than the statements of the man and woman)

Thats sexist.

Quinsisdos: Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: Of course, if he feels that the sex happened without his consent. It's happened before. It's rare, but it does happen.

It's actually extremely common, but is trivialised by people who say "Don't be silly. You can't have been raped by a woman, Only men rape, and they do it all the time."

Can you point to any existing statistics or even one reputable study of any sort (one that relies on surveys of personal experiences for example rather than any reported crime statistics) that suggests that female on male rape is as common as male on female rape or is something routinely experienced by men?

I'd be interested in reading that kind of study.

CDC NISVS 2010?

Am I missing something? The statistics I'm seeing don't indicate how many men are being abused by women and how many men are being abused by other men. Also, those stats have rape, stalking and physical violence all in one category. And even then, the stats still have this experience happening to women five times more often than it's happening to men.

I in no way will ever dispute that men are rape victims. That it happens, and it happens more frequently than we know. I just also have never seen any evidence that those numbers are on par with how often it happens to women, nor have I seen any evidence that woman on man rape is a common experience. Not that it doesn't happen- just that it doesn't happen nearly as often as the reverse. Like, not even close.

orbister: Legios: Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

Dunno what the laws are in your part of the world, but here (UK) you will be prosecuted and if found guilty you will go to prison for driving drunk, whether or not you have an accident. A friend of mine who is a magistrate tells me that it is not uncommon for the accused to claim drunkenness as a mitigating factor in a wide variety of crimes - assault, theft, that sort of thing - and that they get an unpleasant surprise when they find that the courts view it as an aggravating factor. "Everybody knows that getting drunk decreases your reasoning powers, so if you get drunk and commit a crime you have to take responsibility both for the crime and for getting drunk" seems to be the view.

Er. I live in Australia which unsurprisingly has similar laws. You're responsible for your own actions when intoxicated because of the affects your actions can have while you're in an intoxicated state and that state was voluntary. However, what actions people have upon yourself as a person while you're intoxicated/incapacitated is a different kettle of fish. It'd be the same argument that "She drank until she passed out, so whatever happens to her after she passed out is her own fault." Which would make rape a-okay.

orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

That attitude's been deeply ingrained in our culture for hundreds of years. Do you suggest women live in a state of perpetual fear and base our lives and our freedom of movement completely around the possibility that we might be raped?

I mean, even more than we already do that is.

orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

very well put. Bravo.

orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

WHAT?! You should totally be able to run naked through a cactus forest without getting pricked, and if you do get pricked, it's all the cactus' fault you weren't wearing clothes and boots and also you got drunk and took off your clothes knowing you were about to walk through a cactus forest.

dready zim: Legios: vygramul: Legios: orbister: Abacus9: True, but this is not even remotely the same thing. In fact, the errors in judgment mad buy a drunk driver are exactly why a rape victim is not held accountable for being raped while drunk.

We hold drunk drivers responsible for the acts they commit while drunk.

Acts they commit upon others, not acts that are committed upon themselves for being drunk. If they faceplant and end up in hospital, they'll cop shiat about it, but not a criminal charge.

robohobo:
Okay, fine. What is SHE's the drunk driver, offers a drunk bar patron a ride. They smash. But officer, He MADE me drive. What then? Is the woman always innocent by default?

If he literally forced her to drive then yes, she is innocent. She was effectively a hostage in that situation being forced to perform the actions under duress.

I think the analogy is being taken way beyond any usefulness.

I completely agree.

The analogy was the drunk man was in the car with a drunk woman who is not forced to drive but crashes the car and then claims to the policeman that she was forced to drive. You seem to have implied a situation which was not the proposed one to avoid saying that a woman can drive drunk without being forced and be at fault and then lie about it later...  (although the analogy should be that both were out of the car when the police turned up and she claimed he was driving)

Should the man be prosecuted by default because the woman was drunk I believe was the question.

To be clear, the rape analogy is that the woman was not raped, she and the man were drunk and she claims rape in the morning due to regret.

It seems plain that the driving analogy as presented leads to the woman being convicted and the rape analogy leads to the man being convicted (barring any evidence other than the statements of the man and woman)

Thats sexist.

In that case, yes, it's a false rape claim because it's explicitly due to regret. However if she was unable to consent then yes, it's valid rape. And it's the same vice-versa. You're talking about the social idea of (in this case) sexual assault. The male could claim the same. It isn't about regret, it's about the actions at the time. And it's a horribly messy process and I pity the poor cop who has to deal with that...

Is this the honor code in question?

Note to self: If raped. Do not publicly humiliate the rapist with words.

Privately violate him with a jackhammer.

Genevieve Marie: Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.
At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

Rape is rightly seen as an abhorrent act. Do you really think it fair that a university should treat someone as a rapist without due process, solid evidence and a fair trial?

I have enormous sympathy for women in the position you describe, but a legal or quasi-legal system which reaches default judgements seems even worse to me. It's a dreadful situation, and I cannot see any easy and fair solution.

robohobo: orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

WHAT?! You should totally be able to run naked through a cactus forest without getting pricked, and if you do get pricked, it's all the cactus' fault you weren't wearing clothes and boots and also you got drunk and took off your clothes knowing you were about to walk through a cactus forest.

Drinking while woman = running naked through a cactus patch and complaining about being scratched.

Once again, you guys have a far shiattier view of men that I do, or than most feminists do.

Then again, if you're basing it on your own feelings about women, I can see where you'd draw the conclusion that men have a farked up perspective on women and shouldn't be trusted.

orbister: Genevieve Marie: Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.
At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

Rape is rightly seen as an abhorrent act. Do you really think it fair that a university should treat someone as a rapist without due process, solid evidence and a fair trial?

I have enormous sympathy for women in the position you describe, but a legal or quasi-legal system which reaches default judgements seems even worse to me. It's a dreadful situation, and I cannot see any easy and fair solution.

Agreed. I (personally...) think that a rapist should have anonymity (unless a serial offender, in which case they should be remanded) until the outcome of a trial.

orbister: Genevieve Marie: Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.
At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

Rape is rightly seen as an abhorrent act. Do you really think it fair that a university should treat someone as a rapist without due process, solid evidence and a fair trial?

I have enormous sympathy for women in the position you describe, but a legal or quasi-legal system which reaches default judgements seems even worse to me. It's a dreadful situation, and I cannot see any easy and fair solution.

I think that universities have an obligation to provide victims services and wherever possible, to make reasonable accommodations to help students feel safe on campus, and yes this should include shifts in housing assignments and scheduling if necessary.

Also, as has been pointed out numerous times, the burden of proof for being convicted of rape in a court of law is much, much higher than the burden of proof required to trigger school disciplinary measures.

Genevieve Marie: In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.

The alleged victim. Nobody should be able to mess around with someone else's studies like that without proving a case.

orbister: Genevieve Marie: In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.

The alleged victim. Nobody should be able to mess around with someone else's studies like that without proving a case.

No one has an inalienable right to the exact course schedule and housing accommodations they want at the university they want. Those are privileges.

Students lose them over all kinds of things- plagiarizing papers. Smoking in the dorms. Underage drinking. You really think rape allegations that can't be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt but that appear to administrators to be probable should be treated differently?

Granted, I'll say that the accused student should have their identity protected. But I don't believe other small scale inconveniences that might arise because of allegations are a violation of their rights. Especially when the worst case scenario for a falsely accused student in this case is a bit of inconvenience, but the worst case scenario for a victim whose abuser is allowed continued access to them is repeated rapes or worse. (See: Yeardly Love)

College administrators need to balance competing needs and do their best to create a safe environment for all students. That means taking sexual violence allegations seriously.

Genevieve Marie: However? NO ONE HAS AN INALIENABLE RIGHT TO A GOOD REPUTATION.

That's telling the sluts!

BarkingUnicorn: I would sue that "Honor Court" for its next generation's worth of budgets.

Going to student court for rape justice is like going to an HOA with a housing discrimination complaint.  Call real cops. Get a real lawyer.

As stated above, done in one. Rape is one of those "things" that you don't mess around with. The university (any school) has only its own interests at heart and if your's -- rape or not -- conflict with those, it will work against you.

Genevieve Marie: dready zim: Just to be clear, this is not putting the blame for rape anywhere except in the hands of the rapist. For example, if you walk into the bad part of town wearing lots of gold you might reasonably expect to be mugged and the fault of the mugging would belong completely to the mugger who should control their desire for your gold. You should not have to hide your gold to avoid being mugged (think slut walk) but there might be places or situations you wouldnt want to flash a lot of gold about in...

Sigh. And the property analogy begins. The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

No.

"Wearing lots of gold" isn't like "just existing".

I'm dealing with the same sort of the situation with my employer right now. The amount of BS is incredible, both from them and the police. I hadn't expected to encounter 1950s stereotypes and stigma to be alive and well in 2013.

Long thread is long. I never relaized there were so many types of rape. The options are mind boggling! I thought this whole thing was pretty black and white, either the sex was consented to by all parties involved, or it wasn't. Period. If someone did not consent to said acts, then its rape! Not hard, soft, legitimate, unicorn, grandpa rape. This whole issue is confounded by the fact that some people lie. Guys lie saying they didn't get rapey, girls lie saying they didn't consent, and this tends to screw over everyone else. Weird, sick people.

\end confused rant

liam76: No.

"Wearing lots of gold" isn't like "just existing".

Yes, but the analogy was meant to imply that women being drunk around men is akin to wearing lots of gold.

That the valuables in question are our bodies.

Bumblefark: The reality is that there is this icky place, somewhere between happy-healthy-sex and rapey-rape-rape -- and that place is a *frequent* destination of young adults, just beginning to experiment with their sexuality.

You are (a) absolutely right and (b) in big trouble now.

Genevieve Marie: orbister: Genevieve Marie: The idea that just existing while female- having a body that exists in a culture that commoodifies female bodies- is somehow irresponsible.

Here we go again. If you live in a hostile environment, it makes sense to reduce risk to yourself in the short term by behaving pragmatically as well as in the long term by trying to change the environment.

That attitude's been deeply ingrained in our culture for hundreds of years. Do you suggest women live in a state of perpetual fear and base our lives and our freedom of movement completely around the possibility that we might be raped?

I mean, even more than we already do that is.

No, you should be aware it is a possibility and account for that. Its illegal for a driver to run you down but does that mean you walk into the road without looking? No, you take sensible precautions.

Do you live in a state of perpetual fear and base your life and your freedom of movement completely around the possibility that we might be run over? NO, but be aware it is a possibility and you will get run over less.

There are places you are more likely to get run down and places you are less likely to get run down. Is is patriarchal social control to avoid walks on the motorway? NO Its just sensible.

Am I advocating running people over? of course not.
Am I excusing drivers who run people over? of course not.
Am I saying it is always the pedestrians fault if they get run over? of course not
Am I saying it is always the drivers fault if they run someone over? of course not
Am I saying sensible precaution when using a road and realisation that some drivers are bad drivers and all drivers can sometimes make mistakes will lead to you getting run down less often? yes

For example dont cross a road on a blind curve on a fast road at night wearing dark clothes. It doesnt make you at fault if you get run over but it wont help your chances of making it though the night without any broken bones.

You are not being suppressed if this is suggested to you.

Nastenka: I'm dealing with the same sort of the situation with my employer right now. The amount of BS is incredible, both from them and the police. I hadn't expected to encounter 1950s stereotypes and stigma to be alive and well in 2013.

The horror! Also, you're in Canada. Aren't you guys always finger shaming the states for one social thing or another?

Genevieve Marie: liam76: No.

"Wearing lots of gold" isn't like "just existing".

Yes, but the analogy was meant to imply that women being drunk around men is akin to wearing lots of gold.

That the valuables in question are our bodies.

Agreed. The idea of victim blaming is kinda horrid. "She dressed like a slut, she deserved it dressing like that!" is farked up.

/Alright, stupidly late, need sleep...

Genevieve Marie: I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Forcible? What proportion of rapes - by your definition - involve force?

dready zim: No, you should be aware it is a possibility and account for that. Its illegal for a driver to run you down but does that mean you walk into the road without looking? No, you take sensible precautions.

Yea, explaining to a woman that we should be aware that rapists exist and watch out for it is pretty much the definition of mansplaining. I'm actually fairly certain that appears in every explanation ever given of the word.

orbister: Forcible? What proportion of rapes - by your definition - involve force?

ALL rape involves force. The type of force and how it's used varies.

What a f*cked up story and a f*cked up thread

Genevieve Marie: liam76: Genevieve Marie: The scenario I described earlier in the thread- the one that's more indicative of most university sexual violence- would you consider that a reasonable allegation of rape?

BS.

Most university sexual violence happens when drunk, not when walking home from class.

Which is exactly the scenario I described earlier...

Earlier where?  I thought you were speaking of the scenario you listed higher up in that post.
It had nothing to do with alcohol.

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.
So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

If you realized he raped you, then yes it clearly was rape.

Abacus9: . And on a college campus, if you're talking reputation, it's probably worse for the rape victim than the rapist.

However, as Genevieve Marie has repeatedly said, nobody has inalienable right to a good reputation.

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love

That sucks, and yes, that should be taken seriously. A chick just shot a dude, stabbed him 27 times, and slit his throat. She had all kinds of weird emails and text messages. Does that mean all women are suspect?

I could link a bunch of stories about guys in prison for years because of false accusations of rape. Would you agree false accusations need to be taken seriously and the rights of men protected as well?

Sounds like to me, correct me if I am wrong, you think any woman, without evidence, should be able to have physical conditions and other punishments inflicted on a man and the man should have no right to a trial, because men are evil and dangerous. If anyone disagrees, then the DOJ should step in and crush them.

Yea, I'm done responding to you after this because I think I'd rather watch Jennifer Lawrence interviews on YouTube and chat with people whose worldview doesn't suck. But I'll answer your questions here.

No, not all women should be suspect because of the crimes of one woman. Nor should all men be suspect because of the crimes of one man. However? If someone reports stalking and harassment from a former boyfriend to a university authority (or if it happens in reverse, which is rare but has happened) the university has an obligation to try and keep the student safe. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have to change dorms? Sure, and I'm sorry if that happens to an innocent person. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have his class schedule arranged to keep him away from the woman who has accused him of stalking? Sure, and once again, if that happens to an innocent guy that sucks and I sympathize.

But do these inconveniences pale in comparison to what can happen when people report stalking and nothing is done to try and protect t ...

So you are sexist and believe in guilty until proven innocent and men should be punished without any proof. You think that because men rape women, their rights should be stripped, just in case.

Thanks for clearing it up. You are what is wrong with society. You don't even realize the slippery slope you are on because of your twisted views.

Fluorescent Testicle: Sidenote to all of Fark's pro-rape white knights: You are aware that the only thing you're succeeding in is making yourselves look guilty of rape as well, right? I'm not going to say that you are rapists (obviously, most of you are just trolls), but that's what it looks like. That goes for every rape thread, by the way, not just this one.

Duke's lacrosse team would like to have a word with you.

Genevieve Marie: liam76: No.

"Wearing lots of gold" isn't like "just existing".

Yes, but the analogy was meant to imply that women being drunk around men is akin to wearing lots of gold.

That the valuables in question are our bodies.

Actually, my post was in support of things like slut walk in that women should be able to wear whatever skimpy clothing they need to feel empowered (skimpier the better, get REALLY empowered) and not get attacked for it, the same as a person who wears items (valuables) that make themselves attractive to a certain type of person (mugger) should be free from attack by said person. That said, be aware of where you are and who is around you and your life will run more smoothly.

of course, some people will see only female objectification. Did someone touch you in the naughty place when you were young? Are you a troll?

liam76: If you realized he raped you, then yes it clearly was rape.

Yes, but when you're hungover and sick and it's someone you know and you're an 18 or 19 year old kid away from home the first time, your first thought is not going to be "I'll go straight  to the police, and share this incredibly scary and humiliating experience and they will believe me, and once I get through the next four hours of having my vagina, mouth and anus swabbed for fluids in the presence of at least two nurses and then have all my clothes confiscated and my body hair combed, everything is going to be ok"

Some women can pull that off. A lot of women go straight into traumatic shut down mode, and people who don't understand why that is have some major issues with empathizing with others.

liam76: Earlier where? I thought you were speaking of the scenario you listed higher up in that post.
It had nothing to do with alcohol.

That was not my description of campus violence. That was me explaining someone else's views on campus violence- views I disagreed with.

i blame christian republicans, death to them all

Genevieve Marie: mansplaining

yup, troll.

Genevieve,

Why not just jail all men right now? Only way to be safe, right? Pales in comparison to the what ifs if we let them walk the streets. According to you, that should be legal.

Chicks should have went to the police, period. I doubt the main chicks' story, and I hope the guy sues her into oblivion.

Gambill's previous experience with the Honor Court was detailed in the OCR complaint. It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend

Why would the school's honor court be the place you'd go to resolve a sexual assault allegation?
You guys think they can do something about this bullshiat speeding ticket I got?

Genevieve Marie: liam76: No.

"Wearing lots of gold" isn't like "just existing".

Yes, but the analogy was meant to imply that women being drunk around men is akin to wearing lots of gold.

That the valuables in question are our bodies.

No the analogy was that getting drunk around people you can't trust is like being in a bad neighborhood.  If you have something you want they may try and take advantage of you to take it.

At least you didn't try and leap to the "she deserved it" claim from there.

Legios: Agreed. The idea of victim blaming is kinda horrid. "She dressed like a slut, she deserved it dressing like that!" is farked up.

Nice little strawman you set up there.  In factt he person who started out clearly said that it doesn't mean they were at fault.

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